Jeremiah Nortier: Is the Doctrine of the Second Baptism of the Holy Spirit Biblical? DMW#234

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Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location,

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Dead Men Walking starts now. Oh, well, hello, everyone.

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Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast. I'm your host, Greg Moore. Thanks for sharing with a friend.

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Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. Thanks for downloading. It all helps, you know what I mean? We appreciate it.

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Guys, Apologetics Live podcast, Andrew Rappaport, what is he doing? I mean, this might be the most brilliantly insane concept on the internet.

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Yeah, I'm talking about Apologetics Live podcast every Thursday, 8 o 'clock. Try to stump Andrew Rappaport.

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He talks apologetics, theology, doctrine, and you get to watch it on a live stream. Go to apologeticslive .com.

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Check it out. Love that brother in the Lord. It's a fun time. It's a party over there trying to stump

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Andrew. Haven't seen it happen yet. So Apologetics Live with Andrew Rappaport, apologeticslive .com,

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or just click the link in the description below. But guys, how are you doing?

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You know, 65 degrees this week here in Michigan, loving it.

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It's feeling a little bit like fall time. Cannot believe the summer went by so fast.

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When you listen to this, I'm recording this a few days early. I will be traveling up to Tawas, Michigan to go camping for a couple of days with some other families.

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Let me take a sip there out of my Dead Man Walking podcast mug. You can get yours for $12 at dmwpodcast .com,

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shameless plug. But I'll be on my way up to Tawas, which is on the east side of Michigan, right on Lake Huron.

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We're going to do some swimming, some camping. Going to have a good time. But as I prep for that in the next few days,

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I wanted to get this one out just a few days early. We had Jeremiah Nortier, the apologetic doggone, and we kind of went in depth on the doctrine of the baptism in the

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Holy Spirit. Because over the last four years, obviously, if you've listened for any length of time, I've touched on this and said, you know, grew up in that, changed my view in my mid -20s.

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And I didn't really get into kind of some of the point, counterpoint. You know, we went over looking at Acts chapter 8, which would be, you know, most

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Pentecostals and Charismatics would say, look it right there, it's clear as day. And I decided to have Jeremiah, I met him in Tullahoma last year at the

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Jeffrey Rice Conference and he does a lot of debates. He has a ministry called the

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Apologetic Dog, which I love that name, and I told him as much. What a great name for a

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YouTube channel. But he's got a YouTube channel, podcasts, all that good stuff, and does debates around the country.

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So we had him on and we wanted to discuss this actual doctrine, how we interpret these verses that looks like it kind of supports it.

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What are some verses that we may need to look at to say, well, no, this is how you'd interpret Acts 8.

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What's the greater meaning of baptism? So we kind of walked through that. We didn't spend too much time on it.

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I mean, it may be a 30, 40 minute episode, I think by the time it was all said and done. But Jeremiah is a great friend, great brother in the

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Lord. And he did a really good job because I messaged him yesterday, said, hey, can you come on today?

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Didn't give many bullet points that, hey, we might get to Acts 8, want to talk about this doctrine, go. And he was like, yeah, let's do it.

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So he came prepared, which for those of you who listen to, it's kind of, you know, one of the reasons why

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I have guests on is I love talking to other people. I just don't want you guys just listening to me for 45 minutes.

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Sometimes I do that maybe once or twice a year. But one, it's so great to get other perspectives, have other brothers and sisters of the

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Lord on and kind of talk. But also, too, it is such a blessing to me when I have a busy week or busy couple weeks with, you know, the family, homeschool, covenant, real estate, all that stuff to where I have a guy that comes on prepared, did all his work, knows his text, has the

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Bible open and just goes. And, you know, I kind of throw in my points and counterpoints.

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But for the most part, I mean, he is carrying the heavy load of the episode. So what an absolute blessing to have someone come in.

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And it really is, you know, light lifting for me. It's a little selfish sometimes to have a guest on because I get to sit back and go,

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OK, shine, brother, tell us what you think. And it was an awesome episode. I think we really dove into it.

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He explained himself very clearly on where he stood. I don't know. You might disagree. You might be one of our charismatic or Pentecostal listeners and going, nope, that is a secondary issue.

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And I disagree. And look, we can be charitable on that. But if you ever have any questions on that,

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I'd be more than happy to talk to anyone offline. I was raised in that, that and even went to a church for a little bit in my early 20s where it was like you have to have your tongues or your salvation is on the line.

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Really made it a salvific issue, which reading through the Bible, I went, I don't see that anywhere in scripture.

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And there is eighteen hundred years of church history that supports not seeing that in scripture, not understanding it that way.

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So with that being said, we're going to drop you right into Jeremiah Nortier, the apologetic dog.

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Go check him out. Everything's linked up below. You can click through on his stuff. I want to get this brother in the

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Lord exposure and get you following him because he just has some really great content. So here we go. Yeah. So, Jeremiah, thanks for being on the podcast.

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Appreciate it, brother. I know you're busy just to actually watch the debate review.

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You had James White, Dr. James White on and I think he was debating Jared Longshore on baptism and, you know, as a

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Presbyterian rooting for Jared Longshore over there. But it's hard to root against Dr. James White as well, too, because I've told the story many times.

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So I'm not, you know, for any new listeners, his book, Debating Calvinism, which I bought on Dave Hunt's suggestion, which

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Dave Hunt was taking the opposite side of that. I got halfway through the book and I went, oh, my gosh, this

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Dr. James White guy is actually making sense. I think this is in the Bible and started my journey into kind of reformed and doctrines of grace and things like that.

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So and he's been on the podcast a few times. And so I have a special place in my heart for Dr. James White as well. But I was watching,

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I go, man, you do such a good job just explaining things, how you bring stuff up. And anyone who's listening, apologetic dog, go go check it out.

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Pause this. Go subscribe to the podcast. Go on YouTube. Apologetic dog. You do such a visually, too.

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You know, you can listen to it, obviously. But if you watch any of your videos, it's very obviously preacher, but also teacher, which

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I tend to gravitate towards teaching. I like, you know what I mean, how you kind of show things and we go to the root word and we're explaining the

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Greek and, you know, Dr. James White's on there saying things and you're highlighting stuff. And I just want to give you that compliment up front.

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I really appreciate your channel and what you're doing there. So when I saw that, I said, man, we should have him back on because I know you were when we were down at in Tullahoma, you were on for a few minutes, but want to kind of have you on for a longer episode just to pick apart the doctrine of the second baptism in the

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Holy Spirit. And really, the reason why is I've mentioned this in passing on for on the four years on the podcast.

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And and anyone who's listened for any length of time knows where I stand on it, but really never dove into kind of both sides of it.

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What are some of the proof texts that that your Pentecostals and Charismatics will use for?

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Hey, man, there's a second baptism. It's the Holy Spirit. And on the very far end of that, the extreme end of that,

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I would say, in Pentecostalism is look at if you're not speaking in tongues, then you're not involved with the

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Holy Spirit. Right. Can you kind of give us a broad overview of what that second?

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Well, I guess I kind of did. But you give us the give us your version of the doctrine of that second baptism in the

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Holy Spirit, maybe a little history of it, too. And we can bounce off of each other because I know we're coming from the same camp here on this.

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So this isn't a debate. This is something you and I probably full hardly agree on. Same biblical texts and proofs we would agree on.

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So give us your version of that. Yeah, so I believe kind of the the talks more about the

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Holy Spirit's role in salvation and the life of God's people really started to up in the 19th century with the charismatic movement.

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And it seemed like that then bled over into the denominations kind of in the 20th century.

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And so now you have all the different charismatic mania. And I'll say that to be mean. I'm just saying the charismatic movement that has come in all of its different shapes and sizes.

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And I want to recommend your audience, if people have not seen cessationism, the film that came out last year, that is a deep dive into the history of how the

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Pentecostal movement came about, along with the other versions of charismatic movement. You've been touching on something that is actually disputed within the

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Pentecostal charismatic world, but it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe what started was you had believers at conversion, right, that identified as Christians and had their sins washed away so on and so forth by faith.

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The baptism of spirit was something of the second work of grace or the the second blessing that came came later in a believer's life.

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And this is where the doctrine of perfectionism came to be of saying, like, you could attain holiness to such a degree that you would receive another outpouring of the

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Holy Spirit that wasn't present at conversion. And that could come later in life.

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And this was kind of historically known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And then

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Charles, Charles Finney, big on on perfectionism. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. And so there's been a dispute within the

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Pentecostal world because what a lot of pushback against the perfectionism mindset, the second work of grace.

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And so, well, no, really the the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this is delayed, but it's just giving evidence of tongues.

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And so the idea was you could be converted, you'd be in Christ. But the second outpouring of the

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Holy Spirit was going to be when you manifest tongues. And then now there's even more splinter groups that say, well, if you don't get when you're baptized, if you're not coming out speaking in tongues, then you're not even in the faith at all.

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But that's kind of my rough sketch of kind of studying the doctrine of how Pentecostals, what they mean by baptism, the

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Holy Spirit is usually something distinct and apart from the moment of conversion.

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OK, and you're and you're kind of showing there's two or three different kind of splinters in that each one getting a little more particular.

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And I would say extreme. I'm not saying that negatively. I'm saying, you know, the the ditches are getting closer together there as we keep moving down the line.

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So what is your position and what you believe the biblical position of that is? What is baptism and what happens there?

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Yes, so as we consider Acts chapter two, Acts chapter eight, we're always going to interpret the narrative books, the descriptive books in light of the letters that Paul wrote to the churches.

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We're going to go to the clear didactic text. And so just in short,

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Paul makes this abundantly clear in First Corinthians 12. But everyone who is in Christ that have been immersed into Christ, they have the fullness of the

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Holy Spirit indwelling them. And it's the the Holy Spirit that gives gifts to the body.

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And so I believe what we see at Pentecost, what we see when we're studying the doctrine of baptism of the

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Holy Spirit is this is something that happens positionally before God. We have the

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Holy Spirit regenerating a dead man's heart. What's the name of this podcast? Dead Man Walking. A dead a dead sinner's a dead sinner's heart has the regenerating work of the

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Holy Spirit taking out that heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh.

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And so it's the Holy Spirit that cleanses us spiritually, that causes us to see our need for a savior because of conviction of sin.

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And so I think very specifically the doctrine of regeneration of being born again. This is what we see in the new covenant of the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit. And so it's something that happens positionally before God. It's the moment of justification, the moment of faith in Christ.

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And so we do see a uniqueness happening in the book of Acts. And as we get into this, this was prophesied to happen, a visible manifestation that the gospel was not meant just for the

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Jewish people, but all flesh from the least of these to the greatest of these, that the gospel would go out into the into all the world, into the

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Gentile world. And so baptism of the Holy Spirit, we see that visibly beginning in Acts chapter two.

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But does that kind of make sense of how I would understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the moment of conversion, not a delay in time for something greater of the manifestation of the

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Holy Spirit? Yeah, and I would probably say that that definition is probably historically what the church has believed the longest.

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I think you can trace that that farther than Presbyterian infant baptism or Catholicism and Lutheranism.

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Like you can follow that back. And our mutual friend Jeffrey Rice would argue very vehemently for this when talking about the dedicate and things like that.

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That's probably the most popular, you know, widespread and longest held of that definition.

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So so you have that in your corner as well. So so where did we go off? Because like I said, it was like I was like 23 or 24.

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And I went, wait a minute. What this whole kind of baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues when that when the, you know, when baptized and things like that has only been around for one hundred and twenty years or one hundred and fifty years or something like that to where the whole this is why church history is so important.

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My fellow listeners, you know, go back and we stand on shoulders of giants. Now, not everything they believe is true.

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We both know that. Right. But at the same time, you have to look at church history and go, why did we believe something for eighteen hundred years?

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And now in the last hundred and fifty years, we see this huge spike in this belief and widespread. But it's kind of this new doctrine that's reinterpret some other things and maybe one or two actors that that really caused the wildfire of this doctrine.

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So I guess I would say, you know, to those listening, this is something that's new.

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Now, something that's new isn't necessarily wrong or bad in and of itself, but it makes you think that, you know, the majority of early church fathers and reformers did not believe this way.

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So so I mean, what are your thoughts on that when you see such widespread Pentecostalism charismatic and now being exported to other countries and a lot of them not even knowing their own church history?

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Yeah, church history is super important because we have a historic faith. Christ has been building his church for two thousand years and Jesus promised the disciples to give the

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Holy Spirit that would guide the apostles and the church into all truth.

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And it is unthinkable for, you know, nineteen hundred years for the

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Holy Spirit to have misguided the church, especially on the doctrine of the

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Holy Spirit. Now, when we say things like Semper Reformanda, I believe doctrine can be clarified.

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It can be nuanced. It can be refined. I've often pointed to saying that just as individual believers experience sanctification, well, the church historically is being sanctified over time.

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So like what you rightly said, you know, we look at early church fathers, when we look at the patristics, they're not infallible or in a lot of times they disagree in their own thinking.

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And we can look at it now and say, yeah, but we let church history be church history. We let the early church fathers be the early church fathers.

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But you're right, when something is unheard of for almost two thousand years, that is a huge red flag, because as Jude tells us, that we have been given the faith once delivered to the body.

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And so church history is important. It is valuable. We stand on the shoulders of giants, but ultimately everything goes back to the word of God.

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So it's one thing to say, well, that's just unheard of in church history. That throws up red flags. But then as we're going into church history, we look for those biblical argumentations.

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Right. We look for the biblical support. That's why we do point people to creeds and confessions, because we can back it up with exegesis and context essentially.

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You know what I mean? And so when we get into, you know, I spent a lot of time contending against the church of Christ.

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And so I've spent a lot of time talking about this ceremonial rite that signifies the forgiveness of sin.

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But then, like we're talking about, you got Pentecostals that kind of will grab on to baptism and kind of kind of twist it.

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Right. Especially when it's in relation to the Holy Spirit, because I don't want to be accused of saying, well,

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I don't believe that God doesn't do anything miraculous today at all. To the contrary, I believe the miracle that we see happening the most here in today's time is the miracle of the rebirth.

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Right. Yeah. Yeah. So here's kind of my issue, too, and what I kind of saw coming out of that reading through the

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Bible for the first time in my 20s, like really reading through it, not just memorizing verse for Sunday school each week.

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Right. The Lord took everything from me. I was shaking my fist at him. I wanted nothing to do with him.

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I hated him. And he replaced my heart of stone with the heart of flesh. And when I actually started reading through the

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Bible, I went, wow, there's a lot of traditions. And it's going to sound like we're picking on Charismatics and Pentecostals here.

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But if you're a listener and you're in that denomination or in that belief, I would just say this is a brother in love just saying this is what

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I went through. OK. And I realized, wow, there was a lot of stuff within Pentecostalism, Charismatic that that was really based on like one verse and then really just taken to the extreme.

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Right. And, you know, I've had that accusation as a Calvinistic reformed Pentecostal Presbyterian.

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Oh, well, predestination. You just take one thing and go, well, we talk, you know, the word predestination in the Bible, 27 times in the

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New Testament, we have to deal with all your big sovereignty of God. Well, 48 times the sovereignty of the Lord, just in the

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Old Testament, another 30 times in the New Testament. We have to deal with these multiple verses to where when

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I see event in Pentecostalism where there's a prayer language and there's a, you know, came in a

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Mazda, left in a Honda type thing, repeat until you have these words. Right. It's like, whoa, do we just ignore the fact that it was a physical real language at Pentecost?

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It says it very clearly that the Ethiopian could understand the Jew and right in their own language.

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So we kind of throw that aside. But then even the the doctrine of being baptized in the

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Holy Spirit, where there's a like you said, Jeremiah, where there's a delayed or the first baptism maybe doesn't take and it's not real until you're baptized in the

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Holy Spirit. A lot of them really Pentecostals really point to Acts 8, 14 through 17.

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And I want to read that really quick and just kind of get your take on it. I know we didn't discuss any of this either beforehand.

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So this is all Jeremiah kind of I'm getting thrown this at him. So I appreciate you, brother.

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I know you can handle it, though. I've seen some of your debates and I watch Apologetic Dog and I know you're on sound theology and doctrine.

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So it says this in 14 through 17. Now, when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God and I'm reading from ESV, just happen to pull that up.

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My Daily Reader's LSB. They sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the

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Holy Spirit for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the

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Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. So I will talk to a lot of my

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Pentecostal friends and they will go, oh, right there. I mean, they had only been baptized in Christ, but the

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Holy Spirit hadn't baptized them yet. They need to be re -baptized at second baptism. And that's where kind of they build the doctrine off of.

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And that's really the only time in the Bible where we see something like this. We see stuff where utterance of the spirit and things like that.

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But the whole doctrine that the Pentecostals used to me, there's one or two maybe verses. And I know you know about hermeneutics and how we interpret scripture.

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And we have, you know, one verse where we go, huh, that's a little kinky. That doesn't make sense within the verse above and below.

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Maybe I should what? Zoom out, right? I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I'm doing this for the sake of the listener. Zoom out and let the chapter and let the whole book and who it's writing to kind of interpret that.

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So when you look at that Acts 8 and you have a Pentecostal in front of you and they go, it's very clear right there,

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I mean, second baptism. What would be your response to that? Two initial points.

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And the first is a hermeneutical rule that we've kind of been touching on. I would say the book of Acts is telling us a story.

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So everything in the story is not exactly meant to be repeated for today.

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Now, it's interesting because usually I appeal to Pentecost to let people know, like, we're not always trying to recreate a

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Pentecostal experience, but when you're talking to a Pentecost, they kind of are. Right. So the conversation kind of shifts a little bit.

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But another thing just for your audience, and we're talking about hermeneutical rules, Acts is a narrative book.

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It is descriptive. And the only way to glean principles that applies to us today is we look to, once you said, like, we scope out a little bit, we look to the letters written to the church.

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And so I say that to say we need to take Paul's writings, the books written throughout the rest of the

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New Testament, with us as we're analyzing Acts. So that's move number one. And so within that,

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Ephesians is very clear that the apostles are foundational to the early church.

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And that's another rule I would say is when we read the book of Acts, we don't just read, you know,

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Peter and John and Paul going out and doing miracles and thinking, OK, that's what I'm supposed to do as a

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Christian. Right. Once again, we're talking about the Pentecostal movement. That's a lot of times people read, you know,

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Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 8. And then that's kind of the thing we're saying, no, no, no, to rightly handle the word of truth, we have to understand genre.

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And so in Ephesians chapter 2, verse 20, this is actually a very helpful principle as we are reading the book of Acts.

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When we're reading about the members of the household of God, the church, it is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets.

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I would contend with people. We don't have apostles today. They were foundational to the early church, the apostles, the prophets.

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And then this is key, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone. This is the foundation of the book of Acts and the early church.

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And we are living in a time where we're building upon the foundation. So as much as I submit to people, we don't try to go out and just accomplish miracles.

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We're no longer we're no longer apostles in the book of Acts since, but we are building upon what is laid.

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So that's number one is there is a foundation that is unique to the apostles and the apostle

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Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, 12. He says something that was a sign of apostle was miraculous signs, healing, all of these things.

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This was distinct, distinct during this apostolic timeline, which once again is first century and we're reading in the book of Acts.

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So that is kind of big point number one. We let the didactic clear letters inform us how we are to interpret the narrative books like the gospels in the book of Acts to see what principles apply to us now.

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So you see that's kind of big move number one. Now, Acts chapter eight, there are seven chapters that precede this book.

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You know what I mean? And what I'm getting at is there is an already established understanding about baptism in relation to the

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Holy Holy Spirit back in Acts chapter two. Now before we kind of touch on principles in Acts chapter two, there is going to be a strong continuity between Acts chapter two with the first Pentecost, Acts chapter eight with Samaria, Acts chapter 10 dealing with Cornelius and the

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Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit. And then later in Acts where you have John's disciples with a kind of Pentecostal experience.

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Here's what I want to say. They will all agree you cannot have a factioned church and people receiving the

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Holy Spirit apart from the apostles differently because if that were the case, if here in Samaria they had received the

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Holy Spirit and there was an apostolic authority present, well then now the Jews can point at Samaritans who they already think are dogs in their mind of saying, yeah, yeah, y 'all got something different going on with us.

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We actually had Peter that preached and booming tongues that are booming this experience with miraculous signs and fires of tongues coming down.

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What y 'all had was something a little bit different. You know what I mean? And it goes back to that principle of unity in Ephesians chapter two, verse 20, because there is a foundation being laid and real quick in Ephesians, I believe it's chapter four.

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Let me turn there. I want to speak to another principle of unity, Ephesians chapter four, starting in verse four.

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Okay, because it won't make sense what we're going to talk about in the immediate context of Acts chapter eight if we don't understand this major principle, unity, unity, unity.

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In Ephesians chapter four, there is one body, one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one

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Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, the father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

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Okay, you cannot have a divided church. The true ecclesia, the called out ones by grace we see in Acts chapter two and the ongoing narrative of Acts of the kingdom of God being expanded is the mystery of Christ revealed that is now

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Jew and Gentile together in faith alone, in Christ alone.

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Okay. So that's the principle we have to interpret Acts chapter eight.

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So when we go back to Acts chapter eight, verse 14, now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, the gospel was being proclaimed to them, they sent to them

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Peter and John, right? Who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the

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Holy Spirit. I just want to, well, verse 16 says, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

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So we know, however, we read Acts chapter eight, it has to agree with Acts chapter two, the true

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Pentecost experience that was fulfilling Joel chapter two that was prophesied that the

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Holy Spirit, the promise of the father would be poured out onto all flesh. All flesh means to the

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Jew first and also the Gentile, the non -Jews. And we see the

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Holy, we see the gospel being proclaimed. We see hearts being pricked. We see genuine people saying, brothers, what must we do in light of killing the son of glory?

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Well, you repent. We understand a repentant faith in Christ alone by faith alone is what justifies a person.

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And then the call to demonstrate that faith in baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

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That means in his, under his authority, the way that he prescribed in the great commission in the name of the father, son, and the

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Holy Spirit, that's what was going on in Acts chapter two. And so when we look at Acts chapter eight, the gospel was being proclaimed.

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They were ceremonially baptized by faith in his name, but there's still a missing element to unify the early church, the apostolic authority of Peter and John, right?

29:13

They come to lay hands and what we can infer is there were probably the

29:18

Pentecostal signs happening just like they did in Acts chapter two. So the big interpretive takeaway,

29:25

Greg, is you have to have an interpretation of Acts chapter eight that agrees with what has already been established in Acts chapter two.

29:34

And we, it must be informed by the didactic clear teachings like in Ephesians that we looked at and we haven't even gotten into first Corinthians chapter 12 yet.

29:46

No that's good. You know, it's also good to note too, that just following after those verses too, we see someone wanting to buy the

29:54

Holy Spirit and trying to cheaply replicate it, which I'm sure that was going on in other places in the early church.

30:01

So we have this kind of authenticity factor with the apostles, the cornerstone of the faith to where I'm in the same boat as I think you are, to where I believe those acts by the apostles were unique, were for a certain time and ended with the apostles.

30:19

I have not found a faith healer yet that can heal someone with their shadow. I'm just sorry.

30:24

I haven't found it, you know. But I think that's also, there's multiple times in the

30:30

Bible where it refers back to that and says, and it was for the growth of the church, it was for the spread of the gospel. Like the

30:35

Lord was doing something very unique there in that time. But let's go over to Corinthians.

30:41

Do you have it up there? Was it 1 Corinthians 12? Yeah. This is important.

30:47

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Jump off on it, man. Go ahead. Yeah. So that I really wanted to hear people.

30:55

I want people to hear me say unity, unity. There's got to be unity with the Jews in Acts chapter two, and there must be unity in Acts chapter eight at Samaria.

31:05

So when they hear the gospel and they're being faithful to the command to be baptized in water, a declaration of one's faith in unity with the rest of the body, you still need that Pentecostal fulfillment of Joel.

31:19

So there's unity and not division in the birth of the early church. Ephesians chapter two tells us that Christ is the chief cornerstone along with the apostles and prophets continuing to lay that foundation.

31:34

And then Ephesians four, unity, unity, unity, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

31:40

And so Jesus is the baptizer. Okay. This is kind of a little bit of the backdrop with John the

31:46

Baptist. He is prefiguring Christ who said, oh, but when he comes, he is going to baptize with the

31:51

Holy Spirit in fire. He's the baptizer. Right. Yeah. And so we, Paul continues to kind of build this case.

31:59

First Corinthians chapter 12, chapter 12, 13 and 14 is kind of a unified thought and building a doctrine of what the

32:08

Holy Spirit gives gifts to the body in relation to tongues, interpretation, and prophecy.

32:15

And so I really want us to key in on first Corinthians chapter 12, starting in verse 12, for just as the body is one and has many members and all the members of the body, though many are, there are one body.

32:28

So it is with Christ, verse 13, for in one spirit, we were all baptized into one body,

32:35

Jews or Greeks, slaves or free. We were all made to drink of one spirit.

32:42

So number one, this tells us that if you're in Christ, you have the Holy Spirit. You're not left wanting.

32:48

You're a part of a body and you are uniquely gifted to fit within that body.

32:54

So if we look a little bit earlier in the context of our seven, the Holy Spirit to the body to each is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good.

33:03

Your gifts aren't meant to bless yourself. OK, right. Your gifts are meant to bless the rest of the body.

33:12

And so I just want to I want to emphasize that point is when you're immersed into Christ, when he has baptized you with the

33:19

Holy Spirit and has cleansed you spiritually through the rebirth, taking out the heart of stone, giving you a heart of flesh, you have the indwelling of the

33:27

Holy Spirit. OK, so verse 18 says God has arranged the members of the body, each one as he is chose.

33:35

He is chosen. Right. Christ said, I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail.

33:40

And so here's another important point I want to make real quick. Greg, you look with me at verse 30.

33:46

We read. Do all possess gifts of healing? The rhetoric answer he's looking for is no.

33:52

Do all speak with tongues? No. Do all interpret? No. But earnestly desire the higher gifts that I will show you a still more excellent way, the more excellent way, the higher gifts that Paul has in mind in this context is proclaiming truth, prophesying in this context of declaring the truth of the word of God with the body of Christians.

34:18

And so I would contend to say and we can look at this here in a moment. But first Corinthians 14, there is actually a quotation from Isaiah 28 that says there's going to be a judgment on the nation of Israel with people speaking an unknown or foreign tongue.

34:35

Pentecost, as much as this is the kingdom of God going forth and going to be expanding from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria and to the ends of the earth.

34:46

This was also prophesied judgment against the nation of Israel.

34:52

And so Paul's whole thing is don't don't desire the lesser gifts, which are tongues and some of these miraculous sign gifts that was important for the early church, but pursue the things that edify the body, which is prophesying, declaring truth.

35:06

And oh, yeah, this is a judgment on the nation of Israel. Wow, man, that that's so good, but yet it's so backwards in in kind of modern evangelical

35:19

Pentecostalism charismatic. And once again, don't want to sound like I'm picking, but but you see so many abuses there.

35:25

And I know some of us in the reform camp can kind of just, you know, we go right there and we want to rail on that because we see abuses.

35:31

We see stuff out of context. I'm wondering, too, though, you know, we have a couple of generations now that have sat under some lukewarm creatures across America and Pentecostalism, you know, it feels pretty good.

35:45

It's very emotional. I mean, I could have high highs and excitement. And naturally,

35:50

I do get excited about God. When I wake up in the morning, I wake up with gratefulness because I know what he saved me from.

35:57

And I tell people, look at even as a reformed guy, Calvinist, if you can't get excited about understanding and the gratefulness and the love and the joy you have because you know what the

36:06

Lord saved you from for no reason, nothing. I did. There was nothing I'm going to do in this life where he looked into, you know, down the corridor of time and said, well,

36:14

Greg did that thing, so maybe I should elect him. No, there was nothing good that I did.

36:20

If you can't get excited about that, then then what are we doing? So I understand that part of it. But sometimes I think it's that quick hit.

36:27

Emotionalism is that, you know, is that quick hit of caffeine or, you know, in the morning get that coffee and get going.

36:33

It's a weird thing to where it's hard to actually study and know

36:38

God. It really is. It's hard to read through 1 Samuel 15.

36:43

I was just going there a couple of days ago and going, the word repent is three times used in that chapter.

36:49

God repented. God regretted. God repent. But God doesn't repent. You go, wait a minute. How can we have the same word here?

36:57

Nahum three times. God doesn't repent. He's immutable. Right. And then Samuel says, yeah, God, Saul, you didn't listen to him.

37:03

He repented, even making, you know, regretting making a king later on. God doesn't have regrets. And you go, hold on. I got to do a study here.

37:09

So it takes a little time, right? I just can't take one verse and now be an uber liberal, progressive, you know,

37:16

Christian and go see God repents. Even God, you know, and I've seen those kind of videos on TikTok and Instagram and all these things.

37:23

So and I'm not trying to say this harshly, but sometimes emotionalism can kind of replace the actual hard work of studying and knowing

37:31

God and really trying to have wisdom and discernment and things. And I see that widespread. And I'm not saying all, but this kind of takes me to my question on the back half of this episode here as we wrap this up.

37:41

If someone's listening right now and they go, well, he's been charitable, but I'm still I'm still kind of offended.

37:47

You're painting Pentecostalism in a bad light. Charismatic, right? Are are they believers?

37:52

Can we look at a Pentecostal brother in the Lord and say, we agree on core doctrinal issues.

37:59

So your brother in the Lord or even let's take the uber extreme look at you have to speak in tongues to be a believer.

38:05

I've had that said to me when I was young. Do you have your prayer language? Are you speaking in tongues?

38:10

Because if not, you know, your salvation can be on the line. Can we take one of those brothers or sisters and look at them and go, yeah, they're believers, albeit maybe in our understanding, a skewed belief of what the

38:23

Holy Spirit and what baptism is. So many great questions. What was in the back of my mind was the

38:31

Hebrew word for repent is not calm. I've done that study and to repent.

38:37

So I had to get that out there. So a couple of things. I gave you a very Midwestern pronunciation of that. I was like, mayhem.

38:43

That was good. That was good. I want to say a few few heavy things, but hopefully loving things as well.

38:52

Oneness, Pentecostals outside the kingdom, you've denied the triune God. There's no salvation in a

38:58

Unitarian God. Jesus is not the father. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. Jesus was not poured out at Pentecost.

39:05

It was the spirit. The father did not die at Calvary. It was the eternal son.

39:10

Right. And so, no, oneness, Pentecostals are a cult. And if you are involved in something like that, what

39:18

I'm pinning down is the nature of God. So so hear me say oneness,

39:23

Pentecostals, I'm going to single them out for what I'm about to lovingly, charitably talk about is saying, no, we we seek to prayerfully evangelize them with the gospel of grace.

39:36

And that gospel is accomplished by the one true eternal God who has revealed himself in three distinct persons, father, son and Holy Spirit.

39:45

So I do I did want to say that the oneness great Pentecostals outside the faith.

39:51

Now, you do have Trinitarian Pentecostals. Totally changes the game. And I want to say this in layers to Trinitarian Pentecostals, I would say there are many brothers and sisters that identify as continuationists.

40:08

OK, so the charitable camps that I want us to say, hey, we should lovingly be able to talk about the doctrine of the gifts of the spirit is the cessationist camp.

40:18

And there are hyper cessationists out there that I want to say I'm not one of those. We can touch on that here in a moment.

40:24

And then you have continuationists that say, man, it doesn't seem like there's really good evidence to think that these gifts aren't for the ongoing church today.

40:34

And I think charitable discussion, you know what I mean? Now, we'll say there are,

40:41

I would almost say, extreme continuationists that are getting into the charismania, the charismata, the gifts of the spirit.

40:50

When you start saying unless you speak in tongues, then you can't be saved.

40:56

Well, now you're fringing on a different problem. Remember the oneness Pentecostals, they're fringing on the nature of God for those in the continuationists, we'll say

41:03

Trinitarian Christians that say you must speak in tongues today. Well, now you're infringing on adding a kind of work to faith.

41:13

We believe in the gospel of grace. And so I've told people two things to be on high alert for.

41:19

And these are usually the signs of a cult is when the nature of Jesus is tampered with and he's no longer divine.

41:26

Right. Well, then that that smells of a cult and those groups that add faith or add works to faith.

41:33

That's also a tendency of the cults. And so you got to believe in the right Jesus, second person, the triune God who took on flesh, dwelt among us.

41:40

Right. And you must receive that biblical Jesus the way that he prescribed, which is by faith apart from works.

41:47

And so I hope people hear me, Trinitarian Pentecostals that are continuationists, that their conviction and understanding the book of Acts in harmony with First Corinthians twelve, thirteen and fourteen that say, hey, we we see this as being important for today.

42:04

A lot of charity, right? It's just going to be the ongoing discussion between continuationists and cessationists.

42:10

And Greg, I want to say this. No one is neutral. I hear people online that I really respect of saying that they're functionally a cessationist, that they can't basically prove it.

42:21

I want to say there is something to be had or lost on being a continuationist or cessationist, because think about it.

42:28

I'd love to hear your thoughts is if cessationism is true, well, then those people that say that they are really engaging with a spirit,

42:37

I would throw up the danger sign and caution them. I think you are engaging with the spirit, but it's not the

42:44

Holy Spirit. OK, now I can say that lovingly to brothers and sisters that differ theologically than me.

42:50

But that's the concern. Now, here's the flip. If continuationism is true, then as a cessationist,

42:58

I am barring myself and my congregation, other people that have influence from having a certain level of intimacy with God.

43:06

And so this is one of those issues that you can't straddle the fence for long. It's going to begin to hurt and you're going to miss out functionally in your life.

43:16

Does that kind of make sense? No, it totally makes sense. And, you know, it was funny because for a long while in my 30s,

43:23

I kind of did straddle that fence by saying I'm a cautious continuationist. Have you heard that?

43:28

It hurts after a while straddling the fence, right? Yeah, because what you're saying is you're like, I don't like all that weird, crazy stuff going on there.

43:36

And we're not doing fire tunnels and grave soaking and Christian tarot cards and gold from the ceiling and feathers growing out of people.

43:41

I don't do that. But I think God can could do miracles.

43:46

And then I realized in my early 30s that I was conflating miracles and miraculous works, right, by digging deeper into the word and going, hmm, there's there's a difference there.

43:57

As a cessationist, do I believe that God can work miracles today? Absolutely. And that's the classical view of sensationism, right?

44:05

What I think has happened is the pendulum has swung so far in the uber continuation list that anything, if you don't believe that, then you're way over here on kind of an extreme cessationist, which

44:17

I don't think is classical. I think the early church absolutely believed the Lord still moved and could do any miracle he wants to.

44:24

He's sovereign over his creation. And when you actually sit down with a continuationist or a Pentecostal or charismatic in you, rightly explained,

44:32

I'm going to reference back to your suggestion of going to watch that movie. Sensationism is it called or cessation?

44:39

I can't remember. Yeah, the film. Oh, explained so beautifully.

44:45

Right. And you actually explain it. They go, oh, OK, that, you know,

44:50

I've had more than one go. Yeah, I can dig that. That makes sense biblically. And you go, oh, we've been so far off base in this last hundred and fifty years on this extreme part of Pentecostalism that the classic beliefs of what the gifts are for and how they're used and if they're active today, those specific ones of miraculous works and things like that.

45:10

It's just not a conversation. So I think it was much needed that movie coming out. And I do appreciate that. I would say this, too.

45:17

This might get me into some trouble, but I had this realization a couple of years ago when I was debating someone on The Chosen and my family just decided not to watch that episode one, season one.

45:30

I did some research on it. I went, I'm good as I drift, you know, as I as I get older, too,

45:36

I realize we create Christ in our own image so much. It's insane. Now, I'm not.

45:42

Completely, you know, reformer kind of icon theology. But anytime we have a drawing or a picture of like the uncreated one, we're creating them and going, he looked like this.

45:52

He acted like this. Right. And I just get real weirded out about, you know, that's a that's kind of a weird thing to say weird.

45:59

But I just go, no, I'm good. And then, of course, proven right year after year. They're very progressive. They have all this stuff.

46:05

Mormon influence. Right. So I kind of brought this up early in The Chosen.

46:10

And I had a I had a Assemblies of God pastor say, yeah, but Jesus is going out.

46:17

The name of Jesus is still being talked about. And I said, but what, Jesus? Right. And he goes, it doesn't matter.

46:23

It's the name of Jesus. And I went and I had this thing hit me. And there's more than one charismatic

46:28

Pentecostal I've talked to that act like that. Well, as long as we just say Jesus. Right. Even the Super Bowl ad, it's like he gets me.

46:35

At least Jesus is out there. And I went, oh, my gosh. Acts chapter eight, a lot of Pentecostals use

46:40

Jesus as an incantation. They think if just the word is said of just his name is said, well, then, you know, that's good.

46:49

And you go, well, that's not it's what Jesus is being preached. What gospel are we talking about?

46:54

Right. And it took me to right here where you have Simon going, hey, can I buy that? I need this new incantation, this new spell, this new thing that I can say these words, this action to accomplish this goal.

47:07

And I know that sounds a little harsh, and I'm not calling my continuationists out there, you know, you know, black magic dwellers.

47:14

I'm saying I see this movement in the broader kind of in Pentecostalism to where it's like if we just say the name

47:21

Jesus and it's like, but wait a minute, don't I mean, the devil believes in Jesus.

47:27

He knows who Jesus was. He believed in his power. He wanted him to bow to him because he knew the authority that he had.

47:33

So just saying a word or saying a name without the preaching of the gospel behind it, the actual gospel, to me, it's a big disservice to a lot of nonbelievers and Christians alike.

47:43

You said something so key is which Jesus, right? Because I hear the same thing from kind of people from this camp as long as Jesus is going out.

47:54

And so one of my you know, I'm thinking very apologetically. This is what Paul said in second

47:59

Corinthians. You are the apologetic dog. So there you go. Let's go. Yeah, it's just I'm wired that way.

48:06

But Paul is rebuking the believers, true believers at Corinth. And he says, but I'm afraid as the serpent deceived

48:14

Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led away and astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

48:20

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you have received a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you have accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

48:38

Paul says, for indeed, I consider that I am not least inferior to these super apostles.

48:44

And so I call them superficial apostles. But it's there's nothing new under the sun. Usually these hyper charismatic, they are self -appointed apostles, right?

48:53

And they are saying the name of Jesus a whole lot. But what Jesus. And when we're talking about the kind of the

49:01

Pentecostal movement, Acts two thirty eight is to say you must be baptized in the name of Jesus. Right.

49:07

Well, what's Jesus? And how does Acts two thirty eight harmonize with the Great Commission? Because it's by his name and authority that you're baptized in, not just his name only, but how he prescribed in Matthew twenty eight in the triune name.

49:21

My point is usually there's a lack of biblical clarity, right? There's a lot of confusion.

49:28

And Paul, you know, speaking against the the Jews of his time, it says you have a zealous people that have no knowledge.

49:35

And that's a fiery dart. But I want our audience to think about this. It is wonderful to be zealous for Christ, to want to live to his glory.

49:45

But it must be a zeal couched within sound doctrine. Yeah. And something that I try to point out to people that really push a private prayer language and we're talking about baptism, the

49:57

Holy Spirit, but it relates because they think speaking in tongues, right, having this private, this speaking in a tongue of angels, as Paul goes on to say, is necessary.

50:07

And I want to say there is a rich doctrine of prayer that has been given to us.

50:13

And the first place I'd point is what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Don't be like the babbling pagans or as the heathen pray.

50:22

Right. Just lifting up a lofty language. But when you look into the work, the verbiage there, it's this repetitious, almost jargon, you know, babbling.

50:33

Right. Which sounds very familiar with what we're talking about. But then he goes into instructing how to pray in very clear language, acknowledging the father as holy, right, empowered by the

50:45

Holy Spirit, all in the name of Jesus Christ. You know what I mean? And praying in the spirit isn't an unintelligible language.

50:53

No, it's meant to be clear and intelligible. God is not the author of Confucian. Right. And so what we see in the early church and in First Corinthians 14 is there is a systematic, if you will, of how tongues praying, right, looks like in the corporate body.

51:10

It's it's always tongues interpretation with the greater gift prophesying to be able to declare truth, to edify the body.

51:19

So that is a that is a defeater. You cannot push for a private prayer language of tongues because tongues is a gift meant to edify others, not yourself.

51:31

And it's always meant to be done in a local church corporate context. Yeah. Edify the body.

51:37

Amen. All right, Jeremiah, we're going to get you out of here. I appreciate you so much jumping on last minute, coming prepared, shooting from the hip.

51:45

I knew you'd pull it off. We got to hang out a little bit last February and I just said, man, what an impressive guy and appreciate calling you a friend.

51:55

The apologetic dog. Where can people find that? We'll link it all up. Where can they find you online and social media?

52:01

Give it to them. Yep. The apologetic dog. YouTube primarily is where I point people to.

52:06

I just now, Greg, got a new website, the apologetic dog dot com. Definitely go check that out.

52:12

About to crank out some merchandise over there. I just pray that people would support me, namely through prayer.

52:19

And then there are opportunities if people want to continue in supporting in other ways. I would very much appreciate that.

52:25

I would also add to if you go to apologetic dog, check out some of his full preterism debates, talks about the dangers of full preterism.

52:34

Very, very enlightening. I cannot believe that this is actually picking up steam. We're seeing people kind of turn to this.

52:40

That's a whole nother episode. We're not going to get it. I'm a tease here at the end of the episode. After you guys are done listening here, go check out apologetic dog.

52:47

Get into some of those full preterism. If you're if you're a theology head, you're going to really enjoy them. They'll be very helpful.

52:53

So, Jeremiah, thanks again for stopping by, sitting down with us on the Devin walking podcast.

52:58

Appreciate you, brother. Thanks, Greg. Can't wait to do it again. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast, as always, you can find us at DMW podcast dot com.

53:08

Check us out. Check out the snarky merch. We do have the how about you shut up and let that be your wisdom.

53:14

Job, 13, five T -shirt selling very well. Sometimes you just got to quote scripture to the pagans, even if they don't like it.

53:21

The wine, I'm dying. I'm Romans nine, a mug and T -shirt on there. Always a great seller. But that's how I support the show.

53:26

We're going to be traveling down to conferences. We'll be a fight left feast in October, Fort Worth. So we'll be bringing you some live content very shortly from there.

53:34

And then I think, Jeremiah, are you going to be at the white Calvinism? Well, it's not called white

53:40

Calvinism, but it's called war this year. Are you going to be at Jeffrey Rice's? Yes. And I will be one of the debate participants.

53:50

And so I'm still trying to find an interlocutor. I've been tasked to find a church of Christ advocate, and we're going to be debating on if a believer can lose their sanctification or their salvation, because the answer is no, because God is suffering and what he begins, he will complete to the very end.

54:07

So I will actually be I mean, I want to see another James White debate, but he's holding off scheduling next year.

54:15

And so Jeffrey Rice was like, how about the dog? The dog's coming to Tennessee. I like it.

54:21

All right, guys, as always, remember, chief and a man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

54:26

God bless. Be sure to check us out at DMW Podcast dot com, where you can purchase the best and snarkiest merch on the Internet, support the show and leave us a review or message.

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