Emilio Ramos Interview

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

Apostle Paul said, "...but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you."

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio. My name is

Mike Abendroth and I'm your host today. Glad to be with you on this Wednesday. As you might know, the theme is always biblical, always provocative, always in that order.

And on Wednesdays, we like to have special guests. We would recognize here, of course, that while we don't want to compromise, we are compromisers, but we look to the one,

Christ Jesus, who never compromised. And that is our goal today, as we have our special guest, author of Convert, our convert from Adam to Christ, Emilio Ramos.

Emilio, welcome to No Compromise Radio. Well, thank you, Mike. It's great to be on with you.

Well, the subtitle, In Adam All Die, In Christ All Will Be Made Alive, is a good description of the book.

And even as I pronounced it, Emilio, is it a double nuance there, convert or convert?

Tell us a little bit about the book and the title. Yeah, I took a little bit of criticism for the title, actually.

I had people telling me, people are going to get confused, they're not going to know to pronounce it as a noun or as a verb.

Well, I had the verb in mind, like it's God's job to convert the soul.

But surely, I thought, you know what, no, I think I am going to leave it just like that. And if it gets people to think of the double nuance there, that's fine, because that's what the book's really about.

Well, Emilio, see, we can talk about census plenier now and authorial intent and reader response theory all of a sudden.

Emilio is a pastor down in Texas, Frisco, Texas, just north of Dallas, at Heritage Grace Community Church.

Emilio, how long have you been shepherding there? It's actually something of a recent church plant.

Before that, I pastored a church in Fort Worth for probably about five years or so, until we got into this one.

And I could be happier with the church and with how it's going. And I never thought

I would be a church planter. But in the providence of God, that's really the way the

Lord has led me at the moment. And I couldn't be happier with it. And of course, it presents a lot of challenges, but it's great, and it's just great to be surrounded by a community of God's people that want the

Word. What's the website, if people like to go on the website and listen to some sermons? Sure, the website's heritagegrace .com.

Some of our listeners might know you through the Todd Friel connection. Emilio has spoken at the

Psalm 119 conferences. How many different years have you been one of the speakers? This was actually our third year.

Third year? Third year doing it. Tell us something interesting about Todd Friel that we might not know. Some little inside, no -compromise scoop.

Well, next to Shaq, he's actually really, really short. Oh, that was very good.

I think I can air that. No, no. I just, I mean, in terms of Todd Friel, I couldn't say enough about him.

Love him, dear friend, and a great guy doing so much good work for the

Kingdom of God. Well, speaking of good works, let's talk a little bit about your book. I got the pre -press release copy, and I was immediately struck by the clarity you have in your book regarding federal headship.

We are either in Adam or in Christ. Thomas Goodwin, the Puritan, said that we are all hanging on Adam's girdle as unbelievers, and then those in Christ now, the believers, are all hanging on Christ's girdle.

Tell our listeners, what is federal headship, and why does it even matter? Well, I mean, the federal headship is just, simply put, it's the doctrine that teaches that we have a legal representative before God, and so that we're either represented by Adam, or we're represented by Christ, and we're either going to stand in Adam's righteousness or the lack thereof, or we will stand in Christ's righteousness.

Either Adam will be our representative, or God will be, and so under Adam, of course, we inherit his guilt, his sin nature, and his death sentence, and his corruption, his sinful corruption, and that affects every aspect of our being, and conversely, if we're in Christ, then we have his righteousness literally imputed to us, given to us freely by God's grace, and based on his righteousness, we will stand before God, fully righteous, fully justified, in a right standing before the judge of the universe, and that's why the greatest priority of any person is to get out of Adam and to get into Christ.

I think that's about as quick as I can put it. Perfect. Now, Emilio, the interesting thing about this, and I really appreciated the acknowledgement that said, my prayer for this book is that it will motivate you to share your faith in a way that compels you to reach out with passion and think with precision about the greatest truth ever known, how

God is creating a new humanity in Christ by taking people out of Adam. So this is not just a theological concept with no practical implications.

This concept of federal headship is a motivation for evangelism, and that's why you wrote the book, right?

That's right. I wrote it because I thought, you know, how many of us, when we do evangelism, you know,

I've been a part of evangelism for years, you know, really shortly after my conversion,

I remember just being part of, you know, evangelism teams in the church, and I thought, you know, how often did

I go out with the knowledge that there are really only two types of people in the world? Now, of course, we would say, well, yeah, saved, unsaved, but really,

I didn't think of it along the Adamic lines, or Adamic and Christic lines. I didn't really think of people as in Adam, and therefore, all of that symbolizes.

And so, I'm simply trying to draw this out for folks to see, like, this is the way that God operates in the world, and that evangelism is connected to this federal idea.

So I was just hoping to really give us a different perspective on evangelism altogether.

Emilio, there will be some people listening today who are not saved, and some people who are, who love to evangelize, or who would like to evangelize better.

Talk to the people who are listening today, they aren't Christians. Preach the gospel to them in light of this federal headship, and then while you're doing it, the people that are

Christians listening, then they can get an idea how to preach the gospel to the lost, going all the way back to Adam.

Well, sure, and that's a—what a glorious privilege that you have given me. And I would just simply speak to your audience, if there are those who are not yet in Christ, and simply tell them that because of Adam, they are in a desperate dilemma.

They're in a terrible dilemma, because they have a representative before God who literally plunged the whole universe into sin, and because of his sin, he deserves the wages of sin, which is death,

Scripture tells us that, Romans chapter 6, verse 23. And because of what

Adam did, we are all guilty. We all sinned in Adam, Scripture says. And therefore, the only way that folks can be made right with God is to know the second

Adam, and to have the work of the second Adam imputed to them, that is, to be credited to their account.

So in other words, they need another legal representative before God, and it has to be based on the merits of Christ alone.

And so I would just simply say to your audience listening, don't look to your own merits, don't look to your own works, because in Adam, our works are literally filthy rags in the sight of God.

And so you must look to the works of another. You have to look to the second Adam, which is

Christ. Look to his perfect work, his perfect obedience in his life and in his death, and put all of your faith and all your confidence in him and his perfect work.

And that will be a salvation that will not disappoint. And upon repentance and faith, you will inherit eternal life.

You will have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to you, and you will inherit eternal life and be with the

Lord for all eternity. That's why the Gospel is called Good News. Emilia, what if the response is, well,

I understand what Jesus did on the cross, I know he rose from the dead, but you mean to tell me

I get credit for what Adam did? I wasn't even there. How can that be fair?

What's the response? Well, and I understand that that's a notion that a lot of people have.

It's quite common, quite natural to have that sort of a disposition to say, well, it doesn't seem very fair.

But at the same time, we have to realize that Christ, as our second Adam, also did things that are accredited to us, and based on that, that's not fair either.

And that's because God doesn't so much work on the basis of what is fair and what is not fair, but God works according to his justice and according to his righteousness.

And so, because of God's grace, we benefit from the work of Christ, though we did nothing to deserve it.

And in the same way, because Adam was our legal representative, just like any politician or, give an example in my book about a president going to another country and representing all of us in a war heat of plunges into war, you don't have to physically be in that situation, that scenario, to, in a sense, reap the consequences of what your legal representative has done.

And in that way, because Adam represents the whole human race, we are subject to his actions and his consequences.

I think that's a good answer. If America goes to war with Iran, and the president declares war with Iran, he is our federal head,

President Obama, and we would all be at war with Iran, correct? That's absolutely right.

And were you to show up on the doorstep of, let's say, Ahmadinejad, you would find out real quick that federalism is true.

I think it was S. Lewis Johnson who said, after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree, and the family was there,

Adam was with the sons, and he pointed over to the garden and said, that's where your mom ate us out of house and home.

Now, the problem with that little ditty is, it wasn't Eve. The world was not plunged into sin because of Eve's sin.

Why was it plunged into sin because of Adam's sin? Well, Adam, again, he was our chosen representative.

That's who God had appointed to represent the human race. He was the father of us all, and he was the head of humanity, and you can even see that based on the relationship of Adam and Eve, that he represented her.

And it wasn't until he sinned that their eyes were opened, a symbol of Adam's role that he played.

Excellent answer. You hit the nail on the head, Emilio. This is God's world, and in God's economy, he does things by representation, and he chose as creator and judge and holy sovereign king,

Adam would represent every one of us. And we are in Adam until by the grace of God in salvation through the gospel that he takes us out of Adam and puts us in Christ.

You've got lots of quotes here in the book, Emilio. The book is called, again, for those who just tuned in, to convert from Adam to Christ.

Lots of juicy quotes from Calvin to John Murray, some

Reformed writers. Where do you read these things? Who tells you to read these books?

What would you tell the listeners what to read if they were struggling with this issue? Oh, yeah.

I mean, you name some of them, obviously, you know, some of the greats like Calvin and John Murray. John Murray, obviously, would be a great place to start.

I mean, he might be somewhat technical for just your everyday, you know, average read or whatnot.

But The Imputation of Adam's Sin by Murray, that's obviously a great place to read up on all of the, maybe the more technical issues having to do with imputation.

But maybe another book by John Murray, I'm sure that you know, you're well acquainted with.

But his other book, Redemption Accomplished and Applied, I think is probably at the top of my list.

Whenever you're talking about soteriology, this is probably the one book that, above all, probably all the rest.

If I just had one small book that I could put into the hands of folks to get a grasp on their soteriology, it would be

Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray. And there are, obviously, there are many others, but, you know, this is just good, obviously,

Reformed theology, and it's very solid. And you asked me what got me to read these books.

I'm not so sure I can answer that, other than to say, I guess, when I was a young convert, you know, pardon the pun,

I picked up a little paperback print of Jonathan Edwards' Sinners in the

Hands of an Angry God, and then I thought, wow. I read that, and then I went to church, and I kind of compared what's going on in church compared to the way they used to preach back at Jonathan Edwards' times.

I thought, wow, what happened? There was a major disconnect, and so that obviously got me interested in the

Puritans, Spurgeon, and then, you know, Reformers like Calvin. We're talking to Emilio today, convert or convert from Adam to Christ.

In Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive. I think this would be a good introductory book.

Before you read Murray, this is the book I would suggest. Emilio, where can they buy this book?

Amazon, Westminster, where is it at right now if they'd like to buy it? It's in different places. Probably the easiest thing to do, just go to convertthebook .com,

and there you can find links to different places where people can pick it up very easily.

Talk to us a little bit about the active obedience of Christ and how that's imputed to the believer. Tell us, in layman's terms, what is it?

And there are some people in our circles today that aren't really big on active imputation.

They like the forgiveness, but no active obedience credited to the believer's account.

After you tell us what it is, tell us why it's important. I mean, the active obedience of Christ is the things that Jesus did positively or actively throughout his life.

That's versus the passive obedience of Christ, the things that Jesus suffered on the cross.

But the active obedience means that Jesus was actively obeying the will of God, the law of God.

And so in Christ, we have a representative unlike Adam, who obeyed

God perfectly and at every turn. He never failed to do the

Father's will. He always did that which was pleasing to the Father. And so that is the obedience that you and I and everybody else on planet

Earth so desperately need. We need to obey God's will perfectly.

But because we can't do it, therein lies the importance of having his obedience somehow put to our account.

The only way that that can happen, it is not so much of a physical transaction, it's not so much of mystical terms that we can describe it in, though it is spiritual, but it is first and foremost legal.

It is penal. It is God making a legal transaction, if you would, at the cross whereby he justifies sinners based on the redemption that Christ has purchased for his people.

Emilio, you talk about sanctification in the book as well. Tell us a little bit about what sanctification is.

And it's in the news these days in evangelical circles, kind of debate in sanctification.

Is sanctification just looking back at justification? Tell us what you say in your book about sanctification, why is it important, and how do

Christians grow now that they're in Christ? Well, in the book I just kind of focus on the fact that sanctification really has two major aspects to it.

There is a definitive aspect, sort of a once -for -all sanctification that we could say takes place at conversion.

And then there is, obviously, a progressive, ongoing aspect of sanctification, and that's the process of being made more and more into the image of Christ throughout our whole life.

And that could be, you know, that will be a process that we will undergo for the rest of our Christian life.

It will never end. And we will always be transformed and being transformed more and more into the image of Christ.

And sanctification, therefore, is important because we have to keep those two aspects in proper tension.

You know, we can never slip into, let's say, a sinless, perfectionistic sort of heresy.

And that's obviously a misunderstanding of the nature of progressive sanctification. But at the same time, we understand that we don't earn our standing before God because of our progressive sanctification, and that would be a proper understanding of definitive sanctification.

And so, having a good handle on sanctification is really important. You even have a chart or a graph here in your book.

And so, how does that work out, Emilio? You've got this nice Reformed book about federal headship, and you even put a graph in there.

How did that work itself in? Well, the graph—and I give credit to Wayne Grudem, but I borrowed it from his

Systematic Theology because I just think it's one of the easiest to understand that, you know, he basically just shows three different tiers of sanctification, if you will, that prior to conversion, there is no sanctification at all.

It's just going from sin to more sin and drinking iniquity -like water. But at conversion, there's a significant rise in definitive sanctification.

There's a significant rise, sort of an eruption of sanctification that takes place upon conversion.

But then from that point up until our glorification, we go, yes, progressively higher, however, that progress is not uninterrupted.

It's a sequence of peaks and valleys, if you would. However, that should always be in an upward trajectory.

We should be becoming more and more sanctified the longer we live the Christian life.

And that's really what the graph is just trying to show. Emilio, I think it's a great graph and a great description you just gave us.

I used to say progressive sanctification was kind of like California real estate. It would always go up, but there'd be some some valleys.

But in light of the last 10 years, I can't use that illustration anymore. Yeah, I know how relevant that is at this point.

I know. You know, in the graph, maybe I should complain to Grudem or maybe you. I don't see a little plateau here for lay back and let

God. Why is there no spot for that? That's right. No cruise control. Well, Philippians chapter two, right?

Work out your own salvation of fear and trembling. That's right. Tell us. People do like quick fixes.

They want to be zapped and have to be slayed in the spirit or get the second blessing or lay back and let

God. What's wrong with some of these shortcuts to sanctification? Well, there

I wish it was that simple, right? There are no shortcuts to sanctification.

Sanctification. Just the very terms that Paul uses there in Philippians chapter two,

I think it's verse twelve and thirteen. I mean, should tip us off with fear and trembling.

And that speaks to something of the of the sobriety and something of the of the of the vigilance that we need to have in our sanctification, that we can't, in a sense, put it into cruise control and just sort of drift.

We we, you know, we have to be actively pursuing holiness. Scripture says, without which no one will see the

Lord. So sanctification is, you know, agonizing.

I think it was Calvin who described it as an agonizing, lifelong, agonizing process. And and we don't obviously we don't agonize for salvation, but we agonize because of salvation.

We don't work for our salvation, but we work out our salvation. And that's what sanctification is.

So there's no shortcut. There's no shortcut. But we do have the confidence and we have the promise of God that he has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

So we're well equipped. We have the resources God has given them to us. The question is, is will we be obedient?

Will we, you know, will we take these means of grace that God has given us and use them to better, you know, to enhance our sanctification?

We're talking to Emilio Ramos, author of Convert from Adam to Christ. In Adam, all die.

In Christ, all will be made alive. I'd encourage you to get online and order the book. Just kind of a lightning round.

We've got about a minute and a half left. Give me a one or two word response or a short response as I as I name some names in evangelicalism and tell me what you think about them.

Let's start with an easy one. John MacArthur. The Pope. Oh, great.

Okay. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. Well, John MacArthur, I mean, well -respected and just a timeless model of stellar preaching.

I mean, what more can you say? Okay, good. James MacDonald. See, he's at No Compromise Radio Fun.

This is, that's a funny show. Well, very disappointed. Very disappointed. D .A. Carson. Very smart.

When you were talking about drift a moment ago, I think he talked about the direction of drift is always in the negative.

So we Christians, by the grace of God, have to strive towards godliness. How about S.

Lewis Johnson? Very sound and healthy for the soul. Sinclair Ferguson.

Fantastic. Just a stellar, stellar expositor.

All right. And then lastly, Emilio, before we go and sign off, if I looked at your iPod, what would

I be surprised to see on your iPod if I picked it up? Oh, it would definitely be

Christian punk rock. Who is? Can you tell me one

Christian punk rock band? I don't even know of one. You know, I actually don't have that much, but I do have the

Crucified and I don't even know if they're around anymore. Okay, well, that's good. See, I like this insight into your life,

Emilio Ramos. Pastor at Grace, Heritage Grace Community Church outside of Dallas.

If you're in the area, be a good place to go to get faithful verse by verse exposition. You can pick up the book

Convert or Convert from Adam to Christ. Just get on Amazon or go to the book site. What's the website again for the book,

Convert the Book? Yeah, they could just go right on it. Convert the Book dot com. They can go to Heritage Grace dot com.

Either one of those, they can find the link there. Perfect, Emilio. Thanks for being on No Compromise Radio. Hey, thank you for having me on,

Mike. God bless you. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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