Todd White's Leg Lengthening: Michael Brown Doubles Down

Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

I want to thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to show you an interview that Steve Cozar, Chris Rosebro and I did together yesterday as of this recording.

We recorded it on October the 21st, 2024. And we discussed Dr. Michael Brown and his doubling, tripling, quadrupling down with Todd White, his endorsement of Todd White.

And he interviewed Todd with the express purpose of asking him about the whole leg lengthening stick trick, which is exactly what it is.

It is a trick. But Michael Brown is very aware of all the controversy and pushback.

And he's even seen some proof that I showed him, as you'll see, that this is, in fact, intentional, deliberate deception.

And yet, mystifyingly, Michael Brown still endorses

Todd White and believes that Todd White is very sincere and there's no deception at all. And so we're going to talk about this at length.

We're going to show you even more proof that this ridiculous leg lengthening routine is nothing more than deception.

And you'll hear me say this a couple of times throughout this interview. It is astonishing to me that Michael Brown will unquestioningly accept the most outlandish stories, fantastical tales, and most unbelievable claims with absolutely no proof at all.

He accepts all of that stuff, unquestioningly so, with no proof.

And yet, when we actually do show him proof of something that is obviously fake, he rejects that.

It is truly astonishing to us. But this is very serious.

Number one, or at least first I'll say, is millions of people are being deceived by this.

But what's even worse than that is the reproach that is being brought upon the name of Christ and the gospel.

And so we're going to flesh all of this out. So I hope that this will be beneficial to you. Many of you have heard me say before that sincerity is not the issue.

Truth is the issue. The Bible talks about those who are deceiving and being deceived.

2 Timothy 3, 13. Intentionally, there are people who intentionally deceive people, and yet at some level are being deceived themselves.

And I think the individuals that we will be talking about in this program fit that verse, deceiving and being deceived.

Dear friends, let me say this, just in case you've not yet heard me say this, I've said it many times, but maybe you're new.

As a cessationist, I and every cessationist I know absolutely affirms that God does still perform miracles today when it is his sovereign will to do so.

We believe that God still physically heals people today when it is his sovereign will to do so.

We do not, however, believe that it's always God's will to be healed, nor do we believe that there's anyone today with the gift of healing as we saw in the

New Testament era, the apostolic era. So yes, God still heals when it pleases him to do so.

And also, just so you'll know, this interview was actually kind of emceed, if you will, by Chris Roseborough.

He did it from his office there. So he kind of directs the interview, but we decided to put it on my

YouTube channel because I have a bit more subscribers at this point, anyway, than Chris or Steve do.

But I do heartily encourage you to check out both of their channels. And if you haven't already subscribed, please do subscribe to The Messed Up Church, Steve Kozar and Fighting for the

Faith, Chris Roseborough. Okay, without any further delay, here's our discussion.

Gentlemen, we are here recording a video for an unenviable task.

In fact, I've got to admit, I'm annoyed that we have to make this video. And that is that Michael Brown has decided that he's going to double down and triple down regarding Todd White, which is mind -boggling to me on so many levels.

Number one, I want to make something clear, and that is that Michael Brown has actually done some good for the body of Christ.

I remember back when I was in seminary, I did a paper on Isaiah the prophet, and I ended up using several of Michael Brown's works and his messianic apologetic works to help make some of the points that I was making in my paper that I wrote for seminary.

I got 100 % on it. And I got to admit, he's capable of like top -notch scholarship when it comes to biblical scholarship, especially when it comes to like the book of Job, messianic apologetics, and things like this.

But I legitimately do not understand his willing blindness and obstinacy regarding somebody who is as obviously a charlatan and a parlor trick worker as Todd White, and somebody who spends an inordinate amount of time talking about himself.

In fact, Steve, I was recently listening to something that you and Dan Long did on the topic of Todd White, and I really loved your point, and that is just that Todd White puts himself forward as a guy who's living the miraculous life, that he's somebody that we're supposed to be looking up to, and yet you seem to be the expert as far as like going into the archives of his teaching and finding the radical inconsistencies in the stories that he tells about himself.

But all of that being said, there's a whole new body of work being added on YouTube pointing out all of these inconsistencies, but we're not necessarily here to point those exact inconsistencies out, but talk about Michael Brown's obstinacy when it comes to continuing to defend and platform and basically say that the fact that this leg lengthening trick is a trick and whether it works or not is immaterial to him.

I'm floored by the fact that we even have to make this video. Well, the roundtable that Justin was a part of, gosh, what was that about two years ago now, right?

It was about a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago. The argument that he and Sam Storms used in that roundtable discussion when they were shown the footage of what you could see was this trick where you pretend one leg is moving by not actually moving the leg, but by pushing back the other one.

They both said that doesn't prove anything. The only thing that matters is was somebody healed or not.

And of course, the kid in the video says, my back feels better. Well, that was within two seconds of this trick happening.

And Dr. Michael Brown said in that roundtable, as he's saying today, well, if people's backs are permanently healed, then that's the thing that really matters.

Well, my question is, if nothing happened, if he willingly has deceived all these people, then how is it that so many have attested lasting healing afterwards?

Because sleight of hand, Charlemagne's trick is not going to do it. That's what we just witnessed,

Sam. I mean, you saw that, right? But then the back wouldn't be healed. Honestly, I don't know how to interpret that.

I don't know how to interpret that. I don't know how to interpret that. I don't know how to interpret that. How do we know it was permanently healed?

You never went and checked on this kid. That was a video on the street where the kid, I do feel better. So he's doing the same thing today.

It's amazing. And I can definitively say that those people are not truly healed.

These are psychosomatic healings. These are man on the street, parlor tricks that Todd White is doing.

And I'm actually working on a video. So several years ago, a number of years ago, 15 probably,

Darren Brown, D -E -R -R -E -N Brown, did a documentary called Miracles for Sale.

And he took this scuba diving instructor, actually a professing atheist, not a

Christian on any level, but he trained him in the lingo and the techniques of faith healers to see if this non -Christian who just learns the tricks of the trade could go out on the street and get the same results that true, quote unquote, true faith healers get.

And sure enough, he did. And they took him out on the streets of Dallas, Texas.

I've got this on video. I was actually interviewed for this documentary, but they never used my part.

But he went out and he went up to people at random, just like Todd White does.

And he had a 100 % success rate. People that he walked up to at random on the street all claimed that they were healed.

And this guy wasn't even a Christian. These are psychosomatic healings. These are parlor tricks.

It's mind over body. That's all it is. So these are no true healings.

Well, if I can just build on that a little bit, the brain does literally help us to feel better.

So that's what it means to be psychosomatic. I know when we use the term parlor trick and we combine it with psychosomatic, it can give the impression that there's nothing actually happening.

It's all just a trick. And the thing that's happening with the legs is the trick part.

But what the brain is sending a signal to that person is I do feel better, and they literally feel better.

So psychosomatic healings, they're real in the sense that we really do for a time feel healed.

That's why it's so convincing to people who have participated in something like this. And that's exactly right,

Steve. The patient, to use that term, does feel better temporarily. And it's interesting that the people that Todd prays for, they will often report feeling a warmth wherever he is touching them.

And the people that this atheist prayed for, they also felt a warmth when he touched them and prayed for them.

The exact same thing. Power of suggestion. Yeah. Yeah. Let's take a look at the video clip where Michael Brown basically says he doesn't care whether or not this is a parlor trick or not.

And let's interact with this. But let me play this. Steve put this together for us. Here we go. You know, the Dr. Obbs thing that I always obfuscate, and I'm taking the time to address this, not to be defensive, but to try to be constructive, to have a conversation, not to be defensive.

So I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. The leg growing thing is just not an issue to me. Either the person's healed or not. That's the only thing. I don't care if the leg seems to grow or not.

No one cares about that. The only issue is, did you have an issue related to back or spine or legs?

Are you healed? If you are, I rejoice. If not, I could care less about it.

And what does it prove? Nothing. My only issue was, was the person healed or not? So if something looks a certain way, the only question is, is the person healed?

And again, 99 % of the people he's going to pray for, the vast, vast majority, it's got nothing to do with leg growing. And is it a parlor trick?

The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of time, he's not doing that at all. And the only thing that matters is if the person is healed.

If you're generally grabbing someone's feet and pulling and just believing and praying, whatever, and your only goal is to see the person healed, you're not thinking you've got some camera person doing this or that, and they're going to try to show something.

The only miracle is the healing. Leg growing is meaningless unless it's associated with a problem that needs to be healed and a healing comes.

Oh my God. And it's not a circus trick. I am not going to fake anything.

If it's God, it's God. And if it's not, I'm not blending in with a crowd to try to be something. That to me is lying.

And my conscience isn't going to let me live. If you read the Bible, would you expect to go to a church service and hear the days of miracles in terms of healing, prophecy, et cetera, that that's passed?

Or would you expect to see what Todd is describing here? What does the word say?

What should we expect? And isn't this to the glory of God? Doesn't this exalt

Jesus? Doesn't this extend the kingdom? So I encourage you, search your own hearts.

See if when you listen to our discussion, skepticism rises. By the way, if these were all fairy tales, I wouldn't be sitting here with Todd.

Okay. We wouldn't be friends either. And he wouldn't ask for... I don't believe in fairies. Yeah. Out of the horse's mouth.

Todd, God bless. Thank you. So I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. Yeah, he's, he is trying to persuade people.

We all are. If you're on YouTube talking about your Christian faith and your specific beliefs, especially if you're doing a video to try to speak against something that you don't believe in, or something you really strongly believe in, as opposed to other things, at least be honest enough to say,

I am trying to convince you. Which is all he does for both of the videos, the video where he interviewed him, and then the explanation video that came a week later.

He is trying to push Todd White like never before. He's on almost like a...

what is it? Not a bandwagon. He's on the warpath. He's like, I gotta prove my enemies wrong about Todd White.

He's got a real issue, I think, honestly, with us. Yeah. Yeah. I would note that this argument is stupid on its face.

Because when you watch Todd White's leg lengthening shtick, you know, he says things like, look, it's growing.

It's growing. That's the power of the Holy Spirit. You feel that? That's the presence of Christ. And he's pointing to the parlor trick as proof that God is moving, that something is happening.

And then afterwards, he springboards to then ask people to, you know, to pray to, you know, to ask

Jesus into their heart and stuff like this. And it's all based upon the leg lengthening trick.

You know, Dr. Brown basically is saying, that's a distraction.

Don't focus on whether or not that's a parlor trick. The only thing that matters, according to him, is was the person healed?

Well, I would note there were no doctors present. There were no medical tests that were performed.

Instead, you have the repeatable ability to say that, yeah, this is probably a psychosomatic thing, you know, pointing to the things that Justin said.

And here says, doesn't this bring glory to God? No, it doesn't. It doesn't bring glory to God, because at the end of the psychosomatic, you know, hormones that go through your brain to make you feel better, you still have the problem.

And the thing is, is that if you're engaging in deception to forward the gospel, the scripture says no lie is of the truth.

Satan is the author of lies. You can't engage in deception and magic tricks for the purpose of claiming a miracle happened so that you can convince people to become

Christians, because you're engaging in the very things that are of the devil.

When he lies, he speaks his own native language. We cannot engage in deception or underhanded means whatsoever.

Right. That's exactly right, Chris. And it's just a stunning thing to hear Brown say it doesn't matter to him, you know, what

Todd White is doing. The only thing that matters to him is whether or not the person was healed. Well, it should matter, because A, these are not real healings.

They have been definitively proven to be false. And let me point this out.

If Todd White can command, now he's not praying. He's not asking God. He's commanding the leg to grow.

He's talking to the leg, commanding it to grow, and with 100 % success rate, mind you, it does.

Now if he can do that, then go up to an amputee. Go to an amputee and command his legs to grow.

Well, you know, there's footage of him, Justin. There is. I know. Yeah. And he says, it didn't work, but I'm going to keep trying.

Imagine that. Imagine that. So he can command legs to grow about that much, but not a full leg.

I mean, it's the same dynamic. It should be the same. I mean, tissue and bone and sinews and all should be growing either way.

So what's the difference? I mean, is it harder for God to grow an entire leg than to just grow a leg that's short?

I think not. He upholds the entire universe by the word of his power. I don't think you would break a single drop of anthropomorphic sweat making an amputee grow a new leg.

So it can't be that. So these are tricks. And it doesn't matter to Brown that Todd White is intentionally deceiving people.

And I will definitively say he is intentionally deceiving people, lying to people.

And the really simple point that's so it's so hard for, you know, most people want to be nice to a person who seems like they're nice.

And Todd White is is an actor and he tells people he loves them. And he's he's talking about how we need to forgive each other and not be mean to each other.

And he says a lot of things that are actually true. So when we say, you know, I don't think he's being honest.

In fact, I think he's intentionally deceiving people. Now we appear like we're the bad guys.

And so for the general public who's trying to figure this stuff out, it's really tough because who do you want to side with, the nice guy or the mean guys?

And so we've been portrayed as the mean guys. And so what we have to keep saying, I think, is what does the evidence show?

And if it's true that he has had thousands and thousands and thousands of healings, as he claims, thousands of people healed in Walmart, in grocery stores, and because this isn't just about the building, man.

This is about everywhere we go. It's a lifestyle. There's thousands and thousands, thousands and thousands and thousands.

Then there's some really fair questions that anybody should be asking. Like, for instance, why is it that all the amazing ones that he talks about aren't recorded on film?

And the really minuscule ones that aren't really miracles at all are the ones that do get recorded on cameras.

We live in a world where everybody has cameras, and yet what we see are not amazing miracles.

We only hear about the amazing miracles. That's a really good question. It's not mean to ask that.

That's right. That's right, Steve. I've been in some of the poorest countries on the planet. I've been to Uganda, slums in India.

Everybody has a cell phone with a camera in it. Wow. Even people living in grass huts have cell phones with cameras in them.

So where's the proof? Exactly right. Why is it that the only miracles that are ever recorded are things that are demonstrably and comically false?

But you know what? If we had footage of everything, then the Sid Roth program couldn't put on those incredible presentations, the reenactments.

And where would be the joy that we all can have from watching those reenactments, those high -quality

Hollywood -level productions that he puts out? I want to know where they get those actors, where they get those

B, C, D, F actors or whatever. F, absolutely

F. One of the things that struck me when I watched Brown interviewing

Todd White, I would know that Todd White did most of the talking.

And it was story after story after story, no shred of evidence was presented to back any of the stories up.

And there was Michael Brown going, oh, praise God and all this kind of stuff. And on social media,

I put a post up and I said, I'm convinced that if Todd White said that he had recently traveled to the

International Space Station and converted the entire crew to Christianity by doing a 30 -minute spacewalk without a spacesuit, that Michael Brown would say, praise

God and then damn any critic as a hypercritic if they even challenged the question.

Because the reality is that the stories that he said, this person was healed, I did all these things, and then we didn't have any healings, and all of a sudden healings began to happen.

And now they're happening all the time and stuff like this. This person was healed from this thing and that thing. And I'm sitting there going, documentation, please.

I would like to see the actual doctor's reports. But for Dr.

Brown, just hearsay, just him retelling the story. But because there's video evidence that Todd White is pulling people's legs, pun intended,

I can't give him the benefit of the doubt. Nor should anybody. They should be demanding to see the evidence to back up the claims and the stories that he is telling.

But Brown just gave him a complete pass. Dan Long had a video about Todd White's white lies.

I think that Dr. Brown brownwashed Todd White is the best way

I can describe it because just gave him a complete pass and a clean bill of health with a whole bunch of outrageous stories and then chastised cessationists and how it's just so sad that they don't have these kind of stories as a normal part of their church experience.

Well, one of the things on that very topic, Chris, I wanted to make sure I brought this up.

He said that all of the cessationists out there, they just don't know any better. They haven't experienced this stuff.

Yeah, cessationism is ultimately not based on Scripture, but on bad experience or just being raised in it and you didn't know.

And that's just not true. I went to a charismatic church for many years. So did my wife. We have a lot of friends that still go there.

One of the clips that I used in that video that me and Dan did is a clip from my old church.

My buddy Scott is playing the piano for him. I love the guy. These are wonderful people.

But we've personally been involved in the circles that Todd White is a part of just back in, what was that, 2013.

So for him to say that we just don't know any better. The truth is a lot of the critics of Todd White and people like him came out of that very movement and because they were in the movement and they saw such a discrepancy between what was claimed and what was actually taking place, they said, something's wrong here.

And that's why I started listening to people like, I don't know, there was this one guy I used to listen to all the time. His name was Chris Roseborough.

And there was another guy that really, I used to listen to with this guy all the time. His name is Justin Peters. And I listened to those guys and I'm like, you know, they actually make a lot more sense than the people at my church and the people that I'm being told at my church to listen to.

And so thank you guys, by the way. I don't have I don't have enough opportunities to thank you for what you've done.

And I know we take a lot of heat for doing this kind of thing, but it's because we really do care about the truth. Yeah, we do,

Steve. And I'll echo what you said. I mean, I've been to, I was in this movement for a season when

I was a teenager. And since then, I've been to 18 Benny Hinn crusades. I've been to Kenneth Copeland's quote -unquote church.

I've been to Creflo Dollar meetings, Jesse Duplantis meetings, Joyce Meyer, I've been to Lakewood church. I've been to these things.

I've been in the trenches. I know my stuff. I know what goes on.

I've talked to the people who have been devastated by this movement. I've talked to the parents who have sick and dying children in their arms who have been told that it is their lack of faith that their child was not healed.

I've seen the devastation from this movement. We're not talking about theoretical stuff here.

These are real people whose lives are being devastated. Let's take that point right there, and Chris, can you play that clip of Todd White just from a few weeks ago?

The one where he said that's your fault? That's really your fault? Yeah, okay, I got it. All right. Just in case anybody thinks that Todd White no longer preaches

Word of Faith stuff, this is a really painful example of what he's currently teaching. Yeah, and this is just from a few weeks ago.

Hang on. I have to know where I'm praying from.

I have to take out the limitations and limit God. There are no limitations. The only limitation is between your ears.

I promise you, believing the wrong thing when you try to pray in faith, if the only thing in you isn't

God wants him healed. Here, if I pray for somebody and not see him healed, I don't come up with an excuse. I don't come up with a reason.

That's pride. Pride says, well, you know, obviously it couldn't be me. It had to be them.

People hate that, especially ministers, especially pastors, especially leaders. What are you trying to say?

I'm trying to say, I just,

I'm waiting for the day when this becomes so profuse that when someone tries to give a sick person an excuse of why it didn't happen, they say, well,

I thought you were the man of God. I thought you had the power because they get sick and tired to listen to our excuses of why they're not healed.

Do I want them to be in forgiveness? Absolutely. Have I seen Christians not receive healing before? Absolutely.

But I'm telling you that they have to see his goodness. They have to see his kindness. It's the only thing that leads them to repentance.

And when they see that, it changes everything. Guys, we've so limited God. We limited him.

We don't have to. Like, God is unlimited. We could do two hours.

Is God the God of open theism? I mean, what on earth? How do you limit God? This is ridiculous, which kind of begs the question.

There's an aspect, I didn't cue a video clip of it, and you can see it in Brown's interview with Todd White on his leg lengthening, but Todd White was so excited to say that he's asked

Dr. Michael Brown for help. And that one time Michael Brown listened to one of his message messages and gave him three pages of notes.

OK, I laughed when I heard it. And the reason is this is that three pages of notes would be about half the notes that I would take in the classes

I was required to take in order to become a pastor. OK, I have a pre -seminary degree,

Religious Studies and Biblical Languages from Concordia, Irvine. That's a four -year degree. I have a seminary degree from the

American Lutheran Theological Seminary. Another four -year degree. All of that being said, three pages, whole three pages of notes from a coaching session with Michael Brown, and this guy's good to go?

I mean, there's something really wrong here because when you listen to the guy's testimony, you know, he was using drugs and ripped off a guy and was shot at.

He doesn't know how many bullets, but maybe there were 14 bullets. And he turned his life around.

And the only thing that he can point to, like his training, is that he spent three and a half months praying for people at Walmart, you know, five, six, seven, nine hundred people before he started to see manifestations of healing.

But where did this guy go to study and show himself approved? Which church body did he present himself before to be examined theologically to make sure he's a sound teacher and that he's qualified to be teaching

Christ's church anything? Because he's basically created his own brand of Christianity based upon his experiences.

No, it's a copy from Dan Moeller. That's all it is. He verbatim copied

Dan Moeller. If you listen to Dan Moeller, you're listening to Todd White. It's the same thing. Dan's my father.

He's like my spiritual daddy. He just is. I'm preaching the gospel according to Dan Moeller right now.

I had my dose of Dan. My cup runneth over.

But that's his seminary. He went to the seminary of Dan Moeller. And Dan Moeller had an experience with God in 1995 that taught him everything he needed to know.

Yeah. And that brings up a whole other ball of wax. We could do a whole other program on, but so many of these prominent charismatic preachers, they claim to be like Dr.

Jesse Duplantis. They don't have doctorate degrees.

I think even Alexander Pagani claims he's got some doctorate. Right. You did a thing on that.

I did a thing on that. It's totally fake. These are made up degrees. They're not even real.

Like you get them out of a Cracker Jack box. They're not real institutions. They're not accredited.

You know, it's like a Happy Meal toy that you get out of at McDonald's. They're worthless.

But so many of these charismatic preachers, they have no training. They've just aped what they've seen other successful quote unquote ones do.

So I was interviewing Jim Osmond one time. We were talking about Todd White, and we were looking at a video in which he,

Todd White actually said, I have this on my YouTube channel, that when

Jesus was on the cross, he turned into, he became bestiality.

He became child molestation, which is a gross misinterpretation of St.

Corinthians 521. But giving a pulpit, as it were, to Todd White and pretty much all of these popular charismatic preachers is like giving a hammer to a two -year -old.

They're going to do a lot of damage. That's what you see with Todd White. And by his own admission,

I'll throw this in there too, by his own admission, a few years ago, he had been preaching the gospel wrong because he never, ever, ever said anything about sin or repentance or the wrath of God ever.

And even today, even today, when I watch him go up to people and share the gospel, all he does, he slathers praise on people and tells them how wonderful they are, how awesome

God thinks they are. And then he'll say, you know, have you ever asked Jesus into your heart to live inside of your heart?

And if the person says no, then he grabs their hands. He says, pray this prayer after me. All of this is temporary.

Have you ever asked Jesus to come and make his home in your heart? I haven't. Would you pray with me?

Right now? Yeah. She ended up giving her life to Christ this morning.

Come and make your home in my heart right now. Holy Spirit. All I want is for people to know that God is real.

We can all be examples of his grace. We can be trophies of his grace, an example of what it looks like for somebody to walk yielded, live a life worthy of the call.

God will change everything. Hey, sorry about that, buddy. I was sharing the gospel. He loves you. And he recites, you know, a packaged version of the quote unquote sinner's prayer and gets that person to recite it.

But there's no explanation of it. There's no understanding on the part of that person. It's like a theological, you know, abracadabra.

There's no place like home, and we're back in Kansas. You know, it's just. I've got a clip of that,

Chris, if you can cue that up. It's the You're Amazing gospel. Yeah. And you'll see how he explains it to Dr.

Michael Brown. Yeah. Here we go. Now, what do you mean you're amazing in his eyes?

Because we're sinners under judgment and he looks and he sees our sin. And if we die, we're lost.

We're hell bound. So what do you mean when you tell the person you're amazing? When I tell somebody they're amazing in his eyes, it's because God knows their whole life, their whole lifespan.

There's a time for everybody to be born, but there's a time for everyone to be born again. I have the

I have the capability to interrupt that right there and to bring the gospel. So when I say they're amazing, there are attributes about somebody that they don't even know that they'll have with their born -again life.

So I am speaking to a future tense in their life. Okay, got it. You preach sin, repentance.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I preach sin and repentance.

Yeah, that's a ticket. Anybody with a theological IQ above freezing should be able to recognize that there is a problem even to this very day.

Todd White doesn't know how to present the gospel. Everybody already thinks they're amazing. We all think we're amazing.

We're all in love with ourselves. That's the whole problem. That's what the gospel fixes. You've got to be brought low before you can understand.

Until you understand the wrath of God, the mercy of God makes no sense. So everybody out there thinks they're amazing.

And which of the apostles in their preaching of the gospel ever told their audience,

I'm just here to let you know that you are amazing. You are the apple of God's eye. And I'm speaking about a future tense of what you will be after you're born again, but I just want to let you know, oh man,

God says you're amazing. I don't see that anywhere. Instead, I hear the apostles saying, repent, you stiff -necked and obstinate people.

You know, it's like this. But they're amazing stiff -necked and obstinate people,

Chris. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Thanks for correcting me. If you're out in public and you're being approached by complete strangers, and they're being really super nice to you, just total strangers out of the blue, it's almost impossible for most people to think critically and to say the thing that would normally be appropriate, because we want to be polite to complete strangers.

And I see Todd taking advantage of that and getting the response from people that he knows he can get by being so charming and friendly and loving to people.

And he gets the response he wants, and he gets it on camera. And that's the whole reason why he became famous, because he was out there doing it, man.

He's out there, what are you guys doing? You're just preaching sermons in churches and stuff, and he's out in the streets, man.

He's really doing it. And he admitted he was a great salesperson. Getting a job as a salesperson because I was a con artist,

I could sell anything. I sold drugs, I could sell anything. So what we're seeing is a great salesperson, and what is he really selling?

He says he's selling Christianity and the real Christian life, but he's selling himself and the life that he's leading.

And when you buy into it, you're supposed to do what he's doing. And in order for you to do what he's doing, you've got to go and listen to him over and over and over again.

It's like this addictive thing. How is that any different than the love -bombing technique that narcissists engage in?

Yeah, that's exactly right. And notice Brown, when Todd White gave that theologically bankrupt answer, biblically untenable answer,

Brown was just like, oh okay, okay, yeah, got it. Like, no, no, that's not the gospel.

I'm an evangelist. Yes, I preach in churches, but I also share the gospel by God's grace everywhere

I go. And the Bible, Ephesians 4 .15,

we're to speak the truth in love. There is a way to speak the truth, yes, and it's not to be a jerk about it.

It is to speak the truth lovingly, but nonetheless, speaking the truth in love doesn't mean we dilute the truth, doesn't mean we water down the truth.

When I share the gospel with someone, I hope I do it in a cordial, friendly way, but I get that person to realize you're a sinner, you're a liar, you're a thief, you're a blasphemer, you're an adulterer at heart at least.

You have broken God's laws and deserve nothing but His wrath, and the wrath of God abides on you, and the only way to be saved from that wrath is to repent of your sins and trust

Christ and what He did on the cross. So I'm not being mean when I say that. That's just the biblical reality.

I can honestly tell you, I have as many, I have watched hundreds of Todd White's witnessing encounters, recent ones, like some from a week ago, and all he does is tell people how amazing they are, and he admitted it in this interview with Michael Brown, and Michael Brown was cool with that.

Yeah, and I would note that, I meant to mention this when we were watching one of the earlier clips, when

Todd White mentioned it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, he legitimately misappropriated that text.

He thought that God's kindness is somehow demonstrated through healing people. That's not the kindness that Peter is referring to there.

God's kindness that leads us to repentance is the gospel, the good news that Christ has died for our sins.

Rather than giving us what we deserve, which is eternity in hell, Christ has suffered in our place and taken our punishment upon Himself on the cross.

It is God's kindness that leads us to repentance. Actually, I think it was Paul who said that, you know, but you get the idea.

When he mentions that, he completely thinks that it has to do with healing and demonstrating

God's love through healing. That's not what that's referred to. God's love is demonstrated in this, that while we were yet sinners,

Christ died for our sins. That's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. But he heard that from Bill Johnson.

He heard that from Dan Mohler. So he's just copying it. I'm telling you, if I wanted to spend even more time making videos, and I'm kind of at the very end of my ability to tolerate all this stuff, but I could line up, here's

Todd White saying X, Y, and Z, and here is the exact same thing being said by Dan Mohler. Here's the exact same thing being said by Bill Johnson.

He just copied these guys. I want to make a point here that in this whole realm of, should we just allow

Todd to give us his explanation, which is basically, no, I'm honest, I'm sincere, and all these healings are actually taking place.

Should we just believe that, or should we be a little bit skeptical? I say we should be skeptical for a number of reasons, one of which is, if you go back before the year 2004, there is no record of Todd White.

He doesn't exist. He's not on the internet anywhere. From 2004 to 2015, he figures out how to generate $625 ,000 a year for himself.

And we're supposed to just go, oh that's normal, that's fine, that's appropriate. And he's also living in a $1 .3

million mansion, 11 years after this miraculous thing happened in the year 2004.

So Chris, I want to go to that video if we can, the one that, oh gosh, how did

I title it? The one about bipolar.

Bipolar, okay, hang on a second here. And then we're going to go to the next one after this, and I think it'll be a really interesting point that needs to be brought up.

Okay, so Todd White hears voices. This is titled Bipolar Borderline Schizophrenia, okay.

I was bipolar, borderline schizophrenic. I had ADHD. I was on Ritalin.

I was on everything. Bipolar disorder. I was bipolar, borderline schizophrenic, suicidal.

I was on so many medications. I was really, really messed up.

I had borderline schizophrenia diagnosed by psychologists. I was totally messed up.

Okay, hallucinations can occur in individuals with bipolar disorder, particularly during manic or hypomanic episodes.

These hallucinations can be auditory, hearing voices or sounds or visually seeing things that aren't there.

Borderline schizophrenic is a term that's not used anymore. They've divided it into two categories. One of the symptoms would be delusions and hallucinations.

Schizophrenia. Hallucinations are a psychotic symptom of schizophrenia, the thing he claimed that he was diagnosed with.

Yeah, okay. Speak to me that said, I took those bullets for you. Are you ready to live for me yet? No bullets hit me, and when

I got home and looked, no bullets hit my car. So everything in his ministry is based on this one story.

If you take this one story out of the equation, he has no ministry. Every video on his entire

YouTube channel has the description that says he was an atheist for 22 years doing drugs and all this bad stuff.

And then he had this miraculous thing where God spoke to him and said, I took those bullets for you. Are you ready to live for me?

That's the foundation of everything that makes Todd White who he is today. And yet we have no evidence of any of this stuff, except he describes himself as somebody with these disorders, which

I think it's reasonable to say, gosh, that idea that he thinks somebody was shooting at him and the bullets came out of the gun, but they didn't actually affect the car and it didn't hit him.

That sounds maybe like a hallucination or something that he thought was happening. That's just one possibility.

And you've done some work, Stephen, on the, there's a lot of inconsistencies.

His story, his own testimony has changed over the years on a number of fronts.

But the whole, the way he lays out that story, if anybody's heard this story that he tells, it is so implausible.

When you picture what he's describing in your mind, you know, how about how he picked up this teenage kid, you know, to do drugs.

And that story is so false. It doesn't even make sense. Yeah. This is it right here.

The True Drug Deal Bulletproof Todd White.

Is that the one? All right. Let's watch this. I went out one night and the drug deal gone wrong.

And I ripped off a kid from New York city. Just some thug. I had him in my car.

I told him I was a cop. I said, get out of the car and put your hands out of the hood on the hood. When he did, he unloaded the nine millimeter right outside my window.

And I heard an audible voice speak to me that said, I took those bullets for you. Are you ready to live for me yet? No bullets hit me.

And I got home and look, no bullets hit my car. I ended up going into the center of my town,

York, Pennsylvania. I ended up picking up some kid on a bad street late at night.

Got him in my car. I said, what do you got on you? He handed me a bunch of crack, a bunch of different bags in one bag.

I said, I'll take it all, man. What do you want? He told me. And I said, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say counted will be used against you.

I ripped this kid off. I didn't have any money. Pulled around the corner. He's freaking out.

He's from New York City. He's not from my little town. He's from the big city. It's like 14 or 15 year old kid.

I knew you were a cop. He's freaking out. I said, get out of the car and put your hands on the hood. As soon as he stepped out, I hit the gas and he opened up a nine millimeter at me from 10 feet away.

And a voice spoke to me. And the voice said, I took those bullets for you.

Are you ready to live for me yet? I go out.

I rip off a drug dealer. I have him in my car. I tell him I'm a police officer. He has right to remain silent. I have two eight balls of cocaine.

For those of you that don't know, it's a lot of cocaine. Tell the kid I'm a cop. He has the right to remain silent.

I said, get out of the car. Put your hands on the hood. And when he gets out of the car, I hit the gas. The door slammed shut. He spun around and unloaded and emptied a nine millimeter at me from right outside of the window.

When the bullets came out, 14 rounds, the voice came and said, I took those bullets for you.

Are you ready to live for me yet? I'm flying out of town trying to get away.

I'm thinking I'm shot. I realize I'm not bleeding. I went and checked. I'm not bleeding. I tried to do the coke because it was crack that I stole.

So I'm smoking the crack, trying to get high. And every hit I took, the voice said,

I took those bullets for you. Are you ready to live for me yet? I couldn't get high. I went out one night to get to get some crack.

And I picked up this kid on a back street. I'd lost my girlfriend and my my daughter who had chased me out in town.

I picked him up. And once I had the drugs in my hand, I told him that I was a police officer and I started to read him his rights.

And he started to freak out. You were conning him because she didn't have money for the drugs. That's it. And I pulled over.

I told him to step out of the car and put his hands on the hood. And when he stepped out of the car to put his hands on the hood,

I hit the gas and he unloaded a nine millimeter at me. I don't know how many bullets it was, but I know it was enough that I shouldn't be here right now.

And I heard an audible voice say to me, I took those bullets for you. Are you ready to live for me yet? When the bullets came out, 14 rounds.

And he unloaded a nine millimeter at me. I don't know how many bullets it was. 14 rounds. I don't know how many bullets it was.

14 rounds. We pulled out and I lost him. Went down the back streets, man. Went down to a street that I normally don't go in.

Picked up some kid from New York city. I get him in my car. He's got a bunch of crack on him.

I got about a quarter ounce of it in my hand. Two eight balls of cocaine. He handed me a bunch of crack, a bunch of different bags in one quarter ounce, eight ball.

Yeah. I looked it up and the amount of drugs that he's describing is, is consistent.

He's just using different terms every time. Like he's bored with his own story. So he wants to use different terms. Okay. But the worst part

I think of this story is, okay. So I don't know why he picks up this kid and is going to buy drugs from him.

It doesn't make any sense. How do you just out of the middle of nowhere? Hey, total stranger in a bad part of town.

Do you have any drugs I can buy? And the guy goes, sure. Let me get into the front seat of your car and hand over the drugs.

And then you start reading him his rights. And he says, oh no, you're a police officer.

Darn it. I've been caught. Todd White doesn't show a badge. Todd White doesn't have a gun.

And this kid is about to get ripped off for, I guess it's something like a thousand dollars worth of drugs or something like that.

And he's got a gun with him. Why wouldn't this kid point the gun at Todd's head and say, prove to me you're a police officer, you filthy animal, you know, you you're ripping me off.

But no, he then tells the kid to voluntarily get out of the car and put his hands on the hood while he stays in the driver's seat.

Is that the way a police officer behaves? And is that the way a hardened criminal with a gun on him would behave?

And then, so the guy gets out of the car and Todd White hits the gas. When you hit the gas, would you be looking forward as you're about to drive away?

Or would you be turning the other direction to look at the guy? How would he even know what kind of gun the guy's using? There's so many problems with this story.

Right. And if you hit the gas, I mean, if you hit the gas, you're, you're gone. You're, you know, the guy's no longer shooting in your window because you hit the gas.

The car is now in front of you, speeding away from you. You're not. The Sid Roth reenactment showed the car being, you know, he's behind the car now.

That made sense. But when he tells the story, he says he shot him from the side of the car. So every version is a little bit different.

And then when he says he's he's in the car later and he's feeling himself to see if he's shot or not.

I think when you're shot, you know, right away. And if you're not shot, you know, right away.

But the way he says, I had to see if I was shot later on. What do you mean you had to check?

I think you would know. So. And then he didn't know how many, he didn't know how many rounds, but then there were 14 rounds.

That's pretty specific. 14. So. I don't know how many bullets it was. 14 rounds.

Yeah. I don't know how many bullets it was. 14 rounds. I want to come back to the lack of inquisitiveness on Dr.

Brown's part. Brown will accept the testimonies of the most outlandish loony testimonies flying through the air.

Todd White claims he was flying through the air and squeaky squid spirit. He accepts at face value the most outlandish loony tales.

But yet when we show him documented proof that these so -called leg lengthening miracles are faked and easily faked, that he rejects.

He rejects the proof that these stupid miracles are parlor tricks.

He rejects that even when he's shown video proof of it. But he accepts at face value all of these other tales.

And that doesn't even get into the lunacy of Sid Roth, his close personal friend that he vouches for.

I mean, it. Okay, dear ones, I want to interrupt here.

If just in case you're not familiar with Sid Roth and his YouTube channel or TV show,

It's Supernatural, I want to just show you some thumbnails of some recent programs on his channel.

These are all from within the last couple of years or so. And I've had this slide in my presentation,

Clouds Without Water, for about that long. So within the outside three years.

So all of this within the last few years. Secrets to unlock wealth from the courts of heaven.

How to stop the coronavirus in its tracks. Well, guess what?

COVID's still around. I saw bored angels. The reason will shock you. I saw skittles dropping from heaven.

Here's why. Like, seriously? Jesus came to me and said, we must protest this.

Jesus sliced her open and then did who knows what.

Are you kidding me? Jesus sliced her open. This is the normal stuff on Sid Roth's program.

Let's look at a few more. What I saw in this angel's sword will astonish you. What this angel showed me in heaven will blow you away.

Manifest your healing with this powerful revelation of Pilate's unexpected flight to heaven.

Sid's guests are frequent flyers to the celestial kingdom. I mean, they go to heaven with the regularity that you and I would go to the restroom.

And I've heard Sid several times say, you know, I've never been to heaven and all my guests, they just provoke me to jealousy.

And Sid, you know, if all of your guests claim they've been to heaven and you keep asking

God to take you there and you haven't been, wise up. God said, spit on her tongue.

The sailboat vision, a word for 2022. An angel took me to see hell. And this is one of my favorites.

What this horse told me in heaven will melt your heart. So I guess Mr. Ed is up in heaven.

And I just went to his channel just now and looked, and here is here's one from just a couple of weeks ago.

Beware the dragon babies. Oh yeah. Got to watch out for them.

Dragon babies. Sid Roth week after week after week has the dumbest, stupidest, most outlandish, most inane, absurd guest on his program with fantastical tales that no one to quote myself earlier, no one with an theological

IQ above freezing would believe. And all of these shows that Sid Roth does, by the way, they are basically 30 minute long infomercials.

He's selling you the books, the videos of his guests with these absurd stories.

Every program he does is a 30 minute infomercial of lunacy.

You will understand how to partner with Jesus to pray prayers that hit the mark. Do you have an assignment against you?

This book came into being from an angelic visitation that I had. You'll be equipped to speak to every need in your life and have victory.

Shut open doors. The enemy uses to harm and steal from you and your loved ones. Get on fire for God every day for the rest of your life.

Learn how Rabbi Jesus opens a door for you of limitless breakthroughs as the law of Moses is seen in light of God's grace.

Call now and get Kevin Zadai's heaven birthed two book package days of heaven on earth and heavenly visitation.

Experience heavenly visitations from Jesus, the Holy Spirit and angels. Sid genuinely believes in the things that he promotes.

Otherwise he won't promote them. Have you ever wondered what heaven is truly like? Do you know someone who questions life after death?

Now you can know the testimonies of people who experienced life after death. Gain faith to believe God for your own healing and make your donation of only thirty six dollars to get

Todd Coconuto's book. Come out from among them. Why you were made for such a time as this as you understand that God has a body parts room in heaven and you'll also receive his exclusive new audio three

CD set complete victory, destroying darkness and recovering all shipping and handling is included.

And he's doing everything he can to get you to do it. And you're not doing it. I bet he's pretty sad over that.

Yes. Even at one point, I remember this. He had an individual. I don't know who it was, but had them stand in as an example.

He reached out his hand in his yellow, beautiful gold substance came out of his hand and he prayed over the person.

It bounced off of them and bounced back onto him and us. And he turned to me and he had tears in his eyes and he said,

See, they won't let me bless them. And he said, You've got to teach people to receive from me. I want to bless them where miracles are waiting to be accessed.

Take a tour of God's heavenly library with volumes of books that contain the accounts of each person's life.

Learn how your prayers are converted into visible fire converted into visible fire by clicking the link below or by going to SidRoth .org

Heaven. Kevin Zadai's Heaven -Birthed Two -Book Package, Days of Heaven on Earth and Heavenly Visitation.

Call or write today. And I've heard Dr. Michael Brown say that there are six people on staff at Sid Roth.

Sid Roth's program is station ministry, whatever, that vet the guests before they're allowed on.

He said, What's interesting is we don't have a fundraising department, but we have a six person team who just vets guests.

If these are the people that make it through the vetting process, these people make it through.

Can you imagine who doesn't? I mean, it's just absolutely astonishing.

It boggles the mind. And there's only a couple of possibilities here.

If Sid Roth believes his own guests, if he believes these fantastical, stupid stories, then he's got the discernment of a lug nut and he has absolutely no business being in ministry.

Period. End of story. If he doesn't believe his own guests, then that makes him every bit the charlatan and con artist that I've said that he is, because he is knowingly selling stuff to his own people, theological garbage and honestly theological stupidity.

And as bad as it is that he is leading his own guests astray theologically, what is worse, what is exponentially worse is that he is putting words in God's mouth that God did not say.

All of it. 100 % of his guests claim that they hear from God regularly.

God talks to them all the time. God is this heavenly chatty

Cathy doll just talking up a storm. So he is putting words in God's mouth that he did not say, ascribing things to God that he did not do.

And that brings incredible reproach upon God and Christ and the gospel.

And quite honestly, when lost people look at his channel, they mock

Christianity and it's hard to blame them because that's what they think Christianity is, is this lunacy that they see.

That making the gospel out to be just a laughing stock in the eyes of the world with these inane, stupid guests.

That doesn't bother Michael Brown nearly as much as when he thinks that he in some way has been misrepresented.

That bothers him far more than all of these ridiculous, loony guests misrepresenting

God. That doesn't bother him, but it bothers me. And most importantly, it bothers

God. There's a problem here. Yeah.

As the kids nowadays would say, the math isn't mathing. There's something wrong here. I like people say in some of my videos,

I didn't know this term, but I'm showing receipts. Yeah, that's what we're doing. We're showing the receipts.

In other words, that's the slang way of saying you're showing evidence of your argument. He had said publicly before, if you have video proof of stuff that's wrong, send it to me.

And we keep sending him stuff, and it's obvious. It's like as obvious as a nose on your face, he rejects that, but accepts at face value, loony tunes.

You know, it reminds me of a passage of Scripture, and one that a lot of people are just not familiar with.

I think it's found in the epistle of 2 John. And in 2 John, it says this starting in verse 7, many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.

Such a person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourself so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have

God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. It says if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

And Michael Brown sits there and complains that people aren't critiquing him based upon the things he's written in his books.

The issue is that this isn't guilt by association when it comes to Michael Brown and Todd White.

This is guilt by endorsification. And this is guilt by him being a participant now in the wicked works and the deception of Todd White, and worse, brownwashing

Todd White's parlor tricks, and saying nobody cares whether or not the leg was lengthened or not.

What matters is whether or not the person is healed, which is a strange, weird bifurcation that you just cannot justify at all.

Yeah, that argument, the one thing I noticed, he's got a really weak argument, and instead of admitting, you know, that's all

I got, sorry, he just keeps using it and using it with a lot of emotion, you know, like it's a good argument.

And I think he knows he has to basically hold on to his base audience who kind of trusts him no matter what he says anyway.

Well, by just sounding confident, which is really Todd White's entire ministry, is the sound of confidence in these stories seem true because he's a good actor.

He's a good speech maker. Sounds confident, must be true. That's the way a lot of people think.

Yeah, and the thing is, you know, that he is so reticent to call out people by name in his own camp.

I will. I mean, we've all heard about Steve Lawson in the last month or so.

Steve Lawson has permanently disqualified himself from ministry, should never preach again. He's disgraced himself, betrayed his family, his friends, betrayed

Christ. He should never be behind the pulpit again, so I have no problem doing that. But you won't get

Brown to do that. You won't because the dominoes start falling real, real quickly in the charismatic movement because they're all connected with each other.

And if you say to Todd White, I'm sorry, go ahead. This, I got to bring up this point because when what you just mentioned about how he said, send me stuff,

I'll look at it, send me stuff. Yeah, you Dr. Michael Brown can't even seriously look at Kenneth Copeland and come to any kind of conclusion about Kenneth Copeland.

Even when shown direct evidence in his face, he goes, well, I still have to look at it more.

I can't say anything for sure. You've just Dr. Michael Brown has disqualified himself from ever saying,

I'm willing to look at stuff if you send it to me. He's not telling the truth. What that is, is a distraction to make it sound like he's willing to look at stuff, but he won't look at stuff.

Yeah, he'll say if he meant what he said in the way that you said that he meant it, then that's heresy.

But I'm not going to take the next step to see whether or not he meant what he said in the way he said it. You know, it's just it's so it's so annoying, you know, it's like but the only people that are absolutely wrong are those those wascally cessationists, you know, they're the ones causing division in the body of Christ and stuff, you know, right?

Right. And, you know, to say that Todd White is loving, he really loves people, if you love someone, you don't intentionally deceive them.

That's not a loving thing to do. If I love somebody, I'm not intentionally deceiving them with forethought like Todd White absolutely 100 % is doing.

The loving thing is to point it out. I mean, we're to teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.

Titus 1 .9. Expose the evil deeds of darkness. Ephesians 5 .11. Mark those who cause divisions and hindrances, contrary the doctrine which you learn.

Romans 16 .17. 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament directly warn about false doctrine and or false teachers.

It's not unloving to point these things out as Scripture commands to do.

What is unloving, what is mean, is to intentionally deceive people.

That's what's mean, and to do it in the name of Christ, and Brown inexplicably gives cover for it and excuses it.

And by doing so, he's participating with it. You know, that's exactly what

John writes for us in 2 John. And then I would note that, you know, this is just kind of another variation of Michael Brown's kind of like time -honored argument that he gives.

I know these people personally, he says. And, you know, Sam Storms was quite offended when you said that Mike Bickle taught, you know, heresy and false doctrine.

He was really offended. I know Mike Bickle personally and all this kind of stuff. That hasn't aged well. No. That hasn't aged well.

No, it hasn't. It hasn't. And, you know, another thing, Brown is always saying that he doesn't have time to investigate

Benny Hinn or Kenneth Coleman because he's so busy writing his books. He doesn't have time to do that. Well, then if you don't have time to investigate or look into it, even the most basic cursory level, the people that you are partnering with and you are endorsing and you are promoting, then if you haven't done that, then perhaps give those of us who actually have done that work the benefit of the doubt and take what we say with a little bit of gravity because we have done the homework.

Hey, this is a really good place to interject that clip about what he said about heresy hunters that he could if he wanted to.

Rip our stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Hang on a second here. I've got it. This is Michael Brown beating his chest.

Here we go. I was Mr. Heresy Hunter. I was the corrector in chief.

Late 70s, early 80s. I would tear you up. And let me just say something. If I had the will to do it,

I could go to websites, YouTube channels, books, videos of various critics of the charismatic movement, critics of mine and rip your stuff to shreds.

I could point out where you're bearing false witness, which is a very serious sin in God's sight. One of the Ten Commandments. I could point out where you're spreading dissension among brothers and sisters with with unuseful material.

I don't mean speaking the truth and it causes division. I mean, spreading dissension. I could show where you are not speaking the truth or you're not speaking the truth in love.

I could show doctrinal errors. If you're going to get into deep teaching, I've watched glimpses of things and thought

I could put out videos tearing down, destroying. It's not what God's called me to do.

There may be five new videos posted attacking me. I pray for God's best for each of you. So he's seen glimpses of things.

So he's put himself in this really awkward position where he can't even look at Kenneth Copeland's teachings to come to any conclusion.

But he knows with great certainty that he could tear the heresy hunters to shreds. Why? Because he's seen glimpses of things.

And in that video, he shows a screenshot from Jordan Riley's not very good discernment channel as an example of the kind of person that he could destroy, which is, hey, you know what?

That's like quoting Service Christy. Yeah, there are some discernment channels.

And since you brought that up, Steve, Service Christy's gone silent for the last two years.

But Jordan Riley is one of those, and he is not qualified to have his channel on many levels.

There may be more on that coming, but he should not be doing what he's doing. So none of us, none of the three of us would in any way endorse

Jordan Riley. And so the point that Dr. Michael Brown is making is only working, again, to hold on to his base.

He's telling the people out there who might be tempted to listen to a Justin Peters or a Chris Roseborough or Steve Cozart or a

Dan Long or any of us guys. And he's saying to them, you know what? Those people out there, don't even think about listening to them because I know how bad they are.

Just kind of stick with me. If I wanted to, I could destroy them, but I'm bigger than that.

Well, that's not being bigger. That's actually bragging about something that you could do, but you're not actually doing it.

So he doesn't have to actually go through the work to prove his point, which is, you know, like people say, you heresy hunters, and I'm actually more of a heresy hunter technically than you guys are because I am a social media content creator now.

That's my primary occupation. That's where I spend most of my time, which is actually a blessing because I get to do some of the research that you guys, who are more like real ministers, don't have time to do.

Right. I'm a pastor for a living, so I'm very limited. I'm an elder. Yeah, so being an actual quote unquote heresy hunter,

I'm doing the painful nitpicky work to dig through hours and hours of footage to find the guys who are actually teaching this stuff and to prove the point that they actually are teaching this stuff.

I think that's actually not a bad thing to do. It's a service to the body of Christ, but he's making it sound like he could do that and he would destroy us, but he's not going to.

Well, why don't you try, Dr. Michael Brown? Why don't you try to destroy us? If it's so easy, prove how wrong we are with all the stuff we're saying.

You know, I think I can safely speak for the three of us here. There may have been, and probably are, have been times that we have said something that may not be 100 % accurate, but I can safely say that none of us have ever deliberately, knowingly said something that is untrue and we knew was not true.

I've never done that. I may have spoken something, and I'll tell on myself here.

At the recent cessationist conference, in one of my sessions, I made the brief point that both

Michael Brown and Sam Storms heartily endorsed, I can't remember my exact words, but endorsed both

Mike Bickle and Robert Morris, both

Mike Bickle and Robert Morris. I was correct that they both endorsed Mike Bickle. I was incorrect when

I said they both endorsed Robert Morris. Michael Brown did, but in fairness,

Sam Storms did not. He brought that to my attention, so I want to publicly say I apologize for that. I was mistaken.

That's on me. I'm sorry. So, I have no problem owning up when I'm wrong about something, but here's what, we've talked about this before off the air, here's what

I keep coming back to. It seems that men like Michael Brown, they get very worked up and exercised when they think that one of us or somebody has in some way misrepresented what they have said or what they believe.

That bothers them greatly, but it does not seem to bother them nearly as much, if at all, when all of these well -known charismatic preachers, many of whom they endorse and promote, routinely misrepresent

God, routinely put words in God's mouth that he did not say.

That doesn't seem to bother Michael Brown nearly as much as when he thinks he's been misrepresented, and that's what gets me.

I just cannot wrap my mind around that. It is, I shudder to think of ever quoting

God as saying something that he did not say, putting words in his mouth that he did not say.

That shakes me to my core. I can't even comprehend doing that, and yet that's standard fare in the charismatic movement.

I know that we're talking about a certain segment of the charismatic world, and there are some charismatics which are much more cautious than others, so let's just make that clear too.

Everybody has a tendency to speak in broad categories because you can only use so many words in the given context of a conversation, but just to make sure everybody knows, we know that there are some charismatics who are much more careful than others.

We all agree to that, correct? Yeah. Yes, there are.

There are, and I've said that in my teaching too, but even with the most careful of charismatics, and Sam Storms, I would say, would be one.

He would be as careful of a charismatic as you would find anywhere. He still thinks that Benny Hinn is a

Christian. I don't. Now, he disagrees with Benny Hinn, to be fair.

He disagrees with Benny Hinn profoundly on a number of things, but he thinks he's a brother in Christ. I definitively do not.

You're just a meanie pants. That's Christian. You know, it's funny.

As a cessationist, I just happen to believe that the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer is strong enough to bring a person genuine conviction into a place of real repentance if they are routinely lying, deceiving, manufacturing fake signs and wonders, teaching heresy, giving false prophecies.

You know, as a cessationist, my view of the Holy Spirit is such that I would think he would bring that person to a place of conviction and repentance, and yet for Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, they've been doing this stuff for over half a century, and they still don't repent.

So I don't believe the Holy Spirit is inside of those men. Sorry, I don't.

And there's biblical texts that you can point to, you know, talk about people like that. Scripture describes them as devoid of the

Spirit. They're not really bearing the fruit of the Spirit at all. And so the alarming thing in all of this is that somebody who legitimately has the real academic credentials that Michael Brown does, he doesn't have a crackerjack box

PhD. He has a legitimate one. That what he is doing is effectively keeping people trapped, keeping people trapped under the lies and the deceptions of obvious deceivers, and all in the name of trying to exalt

God and maintain the integrity of the Holy Spirit. But the thing is, is that no lie is of the truth.

People who are deceivers and charlatans and things like this, they eventually always get found out.

And whatever people point to and say, well, they did good in this. No, we cannot engage in those types of tactics.

The Apostle Peter is very clear that we did not follow Cleverly Divided's myths when we made known to you the glory and the appearing of Christ.

And so, you know, when people like Todd White come on the scene who are obvious grifters and the stories they say, the math doesn't math.

It doesn't work. The discrepancies are obvious. And when you see absolute video evidence that this miracle that he claimed that he was performing or that God performed through him is nothing more than a parlor trick.

And for Michael Brown to come around and say, nobody cares.

The truth is every Christian should. That's a great point to end on,

I think. And Jesus cares. Jesus cares that Todd White is deceiving people in his name.

I think Jesus cares. Yeah. And the thing is, I don't want Todd White to get what he deserves for these blasphemies and for legitimately taking the name of Christ and bringing it through the mud in his deceptive practices.

If he doesn't repent, he will face God's judgment for this. And that's the sad part.

I'm not fighting against Todd White. I'm not even fighting against Michael Brown. In reality, all the work that I'm doing is trying to be fighting for them.

And the people that I minister to who have been destroyed by liars and deceivers like White and others, those scars never go away.

And the real pain that they experience as a result of being abused and spiritually manipulated and made merchandise of, that stuff never goes away.

And they will always have a sense of distrust for whoever is preaching the truth to them, even if they're preaching the gospel truth.

And it takes a long time for people to process this stuff out and realize that they've been deceived.

And then they even go through the grieving process in dealing with the fact that they have been deceived and not taught the truth.

This is the kind of stuff that destroys people's lives and families. Yeah, we went through that very thing.

We had a long period coming out of the charismatic world where we had to relearn a lot of things.

And it would have been actually very easy to say, you know what? I'm done with God. I'm done with church. I'm done with Christianity and the

Bible. I'm just done. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. I've been lied to. I'm done. So my heart is for all those people out there who know something is wrong.

They know something is off and no one's talking to them directly about these things.

So that's why I think all of us feel it's best to just be really direct and say things as they really are and not try to beat around the bush too much because it ultimately doesn't really help.

Yeah, that's right. People are being deceived and reproached as being brought upon the name of Christ.

That's why we do what we do. Amen. Well, gentlemen, thanks for coming on and doing this video together.

I pray that it'll be beneficial to the body of Christ and that it'll help further along the need to basically mark and avoid

Michael Brown until he can learn how to properly mark and those who are the deceivers within the body of Christ rather than participating in their deceptions.