Todd White's Leg Lengthening: Michael Brown Doubles Down

Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today. I want to thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to show you an interview that Steve Cozart, Chris Rosebro and I did together yesterday as of this recording.

We recorded it on October the 21st, 2024, and we discussed Dr. Michael Brown and his doubling, tripling, quadrupling down with Todd White, his endorsement of Todd White. He interviewed Todd with the express purpose of asking him about the whole leg lengthening stick trick, which is exactly what it is.

It is a trick, but Michael Brown is very aware of all the controversy and pushback, and he's even seen some proof that I showed him, as you'll see, that this is in fact intentional, deliberate deception.

And yet, mystifyingly, Michael Brown still endorses Todd White and believes that Todd White is very sincere and there's no deception at all. And so we're going to talk about this at length. We're going to show you even more proof that this ridiculous leg lengthening routine is nothing more than deception.

And you'll hear me say this a couple of times throughout this interview. It is astonishing to me that Michael Brown will unquestioningly accept the most outlandish stories, fantastical tales, and most unbelievable claims with absolutely no proof at all.

He accepts all of that stuff, unquestioningly so, with no proof. And yet, when we actually do show him proof of something that is obviously fake, he rejects that. It is truly astonishing to us. But this is very serious.

Number one, or at least first I'll say, is millions of people are being deceived by this. But what's even worse than that is the reproach that is being brought upon the name of Christ and the gospel. And so we're going to flesh all of this out.

So I hope that this will be beneficial to you. Many of you have heard me say before that sincerity is not the issue. Truth is the issue. The Bible talks about those who are deceiving and being deceived.

2 Timothy 3, 13. There are people who intentionally deceive people, and yet at some level are being deceived themselves. And I think the individuals that we will be talking about in this program fit that verse, deceiving and being deceived.

Dear friends, let me say this, just in case you've not yet heard me say this. I've said it many times, but maybe you're new. As a cessationist, I and every cessationist I know absolutely affirms that God does still perform miracles today when it is his sovereign will to do so.

We believe that God still physically heals people today when it is his sovereign will to do so. We do not, however, believe that it's always God's will to be healed, nor do we believe that there is anyone today with the gift of healing as we saw in the New Testament era, the apostolic era.

So yes, God still heals when it pleases him to do so. And also, just so you'll know, this interview was actually kind of emceed, if you will, by Chris Rosebrough. He did it from his office there. So he kind of directs the interview, but we decided to put it on my YouTube channel because I have a bit more subscribers at this point anyway than Chris or Steve do, but I do heartily encourage you to check out both of their channels.

And if you haven't already subscribed, please do subscribe to The Messed Up Church, Steve Kozar, and Fighting for the Faith, Chris Rosebrough. Okay, without any further delay, here's our discussion.

Gentlemen, we are here recording a video for an unenviable task. In fact, I've got to admit, I'm annoyed that we have to make this video. And that is that Michael Brown has decided that he's going to double down and triple down regarding Todd White, which is mind-boggling to me on so many levels.

Number one, I want to make something clear, and that is that Michael Brown has actually done some good for the body of Christ. I remember back when I was in seminary, I did a paper on Isaiah the prophet, and I ended up using several of Michael Brown's works and his messianic apologetic works to help make some of the points that I was making in my paper that I wrote for seminary.

I got 100 on it, and I got to admit, he's capable of top-notch scholarship when it comes to biblical scholarship, especially when it comes to the book of Job, messianic apologetics, and things like this.

But I legitimately do not understand his willing blindness and obstinacy regarding somebody who is as obviously a charlatan and a parlor-trick worker as Todd White, and somebody who spends an inordinate amount of time talking about himself.

In fact, Steve, I was recently listening to something that you and Dan Long did on the topic of Todd White, and I really loved your point, and that is that Todd White puts himself forward as a guy who's living the miraculous life, that he's somebody that we're supposed to be looking up to, and yet you seem to be the expert as far as going into the archives of his teaching and finding the radical inconsistencies in the stories that he tells about himself.

But all of that being said, there's a whole new body of work being added on YouTube pointing out all of these inconsistencies, but we're not necessarily here to point those exact inconsistencies out, but talk about Michael Brown's obstinacy when it comes to continuing to defend and platform and basically say that the fact that this leg lengthening trick is a trick, and whether it works or not, is immaterial to him.

I'm floored by the fact that we even have.

To make this video. Well, the roundtable that Justin was a part of, gosh, what was that,.

About two years ago now, right? It was about a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago.

The argument that he and Sam Storms used in that roundtable discussion when they were shown the footage of what you could see was this trick where you pretend one leg is moving by not actually moving the leg, but by pushing back the other one, they both said that doesn't prove anything.

The only thing that matters is was somebody healed or not, and of course the kid in the video says, my back feels better. Well, that was within two seconds of this trick happening, and Dr. Michael Brown said in that roundtable, as he's saying today, well, if people's backs are permanently healed, then that's the thing that really matters.

But my question is, if nothing.

Happened, if he willingly has deceived all these people, then how is it that so many have attested lasting healing afterwards? Because sleight of hand Charleston is not going to do it.

That's what we just witnessed, Sam. I mean, you saw that, right?

But then the back wouldn't be healed. Honestly, I don't know how to interpret that. I don't know how to interpret that. I don't know how to interpret that. I don't know how to interpret.

That. How do we know it was permanently healed? You never went and checked on this kid. That was a video on the street where the kid, I do feel better. So he's doing the same thing today.

It's amazing. And I can definitively say that those people are not truly healed. These are psychosomatic healings. These are man-on-the-street parlor tricks that Todd White is doing. And I'm actually working on a video.

So several years ago, a number of years ago, 15 probably, Darren Brown, D-E-R-R-E-N Brown, did a documentary called Miracles for Sale. And he took this scuba diving instructor, actually a professing atheist, not a Christian on any level, but he trained him in the lingo and the techniques of faith healers to see if this non-Christian who just learns the tricks of the trade could go out on the street and get the same results that true, quote unquote, true faith healers get.

And sure enough, he did. They took him out on the streets of Dallas, Texas. I've got this on video. I was actually interviewed for this documentary, but they never used my part. But he went out and he went up to people at random, just like Todd White does.

And he had a 100 success rate. People that he walked up to at random on the street all claimed that they were healed. And this guy wasn't even a Christian. These are psychosomatic healings. These are parlor tricks.

It's mind over body. That's all it is. So these are no true healings.

Well, if I can just build on that a little bit, the brain does literally help us to feel better. Yep. So that's what it means to be psychosomatic. I know when we use the term parlor trick and we combine it with psychosomatic, it can give the impression that there's nothing actually happening.

It's all just a trick. And the thing that's happening with the legs is the trick part. But what the brain is sending a signal to that person is I do feel better and they literally feel better. So psychosomatic healings, they're real in the sense that we really do, for a time, feel healed.

Yep. That's why it's so convincing to people who have participated in something like.

This. And that's exactly right, Steve. The patient, to use that term, does feel better temporarily. And it's interesting that the people that Todd White prays for, they will often report feeling a warmth, you know, wherever he is touching them.

And the people that this atheist prayed for, they also felt a warmth when he touched them and prayed for them. The exact same thing.

Power of suggestion. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's take a look at the video clip where Michael Brown basically says he doesn't care whether or not this is a parlor trick or not. And let's interact with this. But let me play this.

Steve, put this together for us. Here we go. You know, the Dr. Obbs thing that I always obfuscate, and I'm taking the time to address this, not to be defensive, but to try to be constructive, to have a conversation, not to be defensive.

So I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. The leg growing thing is just not an issue to me. Either the person's healed or not. That's the only thing. I don't care if the leg seems to grow or not.

No one cares about that. The only issue is, did you have an issue related to back or spine or legs? Are you healed? If you are, I rejoice. If not, I could care less about it. And what does it prove? Nothing.

My only issue was, was the person healed or not? So if it looks a certain way, the only question is, is the person healed? And again, 99 of the people he's going to pray for, the vast, vast majority, it's got nothing to do with leg growing.

And is it a parlor trick? The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of time, he's not doing that at all. And the only thing that matters is if the person is healed. If you're generally grabbing someone's feet and pulling and just believing and praying, whatever, and your only goal is to see the person healed, you're not thinking you've got some camera person doing this or that, and they're going to try to show something.

The only miracle is the healing. Leg growing is meaningless unless it's associated with a problem that needs to be healed and a.

Healing comes. Oh my God. And it's not a circus trick. I am not going to fake anything. If it's God, it's God. And if it's not, I'm not blending in with a crowd to try to be something. That to me is lying.

And my conscience isn't going to let me live. If you read the Bible, would you expect.

To go to a church service and hear the days of miracles in terms of healing, prophecy, et cetera, that that's passed? Or would you expect to see what Todd is describing here? What does the word say? What should we expect?

And isn't this to the glory of God? Doesn't this exalt Jesus? Doesn't extend the kingdom? So I encourage you to search your own heart. See if when you listen to our discussion, skepticism rises. By the way, if these are all fairy tales, I wouldn't be sitting here with Todd.

Okay. We wouldn't be friends either. And he wouldn't ask for... I don't believe in fairies. Yeah. Out of the horse's mouth. Todd, God bless. Thank you. So I'm not trying to persuade.

You of anything. Yeah, he's, he is trying to persuade people. We all are. If you're on YouTube talking about your Christian faith and your specific beliefs, especially if you're doing a video to try to speak against something that you don't believe in, or something you really strongly believe in, as opposed to other things, at least be honest enough to say, I am trying to convince you, which is all he does for both of the videos, the video where he interviewed him, and then the explanation video that came a week later.

He is trying to push Todd White like never before. He's on almost like a, what is it? Not a bandwagon. He's on the warpath. He's like, I gotta prove my enemies wrong about Todd White. He's got a real issue, I think, honestly, with us.

Yeah. Yeah. I would note that this argument is stupid on its face, and because when you watch Todd White's leg-lengthening shtick, you know, he says things like, well, look, it's growing. It's growing.

That's the power of the Holy Spirit. You feel that? That's the presence of Christ. And he's pointing to the parlor trick as proof that God is moving, that something is happening. And then afterwards, he springboards to then ask people to, to pray, to ask Jesus into their heart and stuff like this.

And it's all based upon the leg-lengthening trick. Dr. Brown basically is saying, that's a distraction. Don't focus on whether or not that's a parlor trick. The only thing that matters, according to him, is was the person healed?

Well, I would note there were no doctors present. There were no medical tests that were performed. Instead, you have the repeatable ability to say that, yeah, this is probably a psychosomatic thing, you know, pointing to the things that Justin said.

And here it says, doesn't this bring glory to God? No, it doesn't. It doesn't bring glory to God because at the end of the psychosomatic, you know, hormones that go through your brain to make you feel better, you're still have the problem.

And, and the, and the thing is, is that if you're engaging in deception to forward the gospel, the scripture says no lie is of the truth. Satan is the author of lies. You can't engage in deception and magic tricks for the purpose of claiming a miracle happens so that you can convince people to become Christians because you're engaging in the very things that, that are of the devil.

The devil, when he lies, he speaks his own native language. We cannot engage in deception or underhanded means whatsoever. Right. That's exactly right,.

Chris. And it's just a stunning thing to hear Brown say it doesn't matter to him, you know, what Todd White is doing. The only thing that matters to him is whether or not the person was healed. Well, it should matter because A, these are not real healings.

They, they have been definitively proven to be false. And let me point this out. If Todd White can command, now he's not praying. He's not asking God. He's commanding the leg to grow. He's talking to the leg, commanding it to grow.

And with one a 100 success rate, mind you, it does. Now, if he can do that, then, then go up to an amputee, go to an amputee and command his legs to grow.

Well, you know, there's a, there's footage of him, Justin.

There is. I know.

Yeah. And he says it didn't work, but I'm going to keep trying.

Imagine that. Imagine that. So he can, he can command legs to grow about that much, but not a full leg. I mean, it's the same dynamic. It should be the same. I mean, tissue and bone and sinews and all should be growing either way.

So what's the difference? I mean, is it harder for God to grow an entire leg than, than to just grow a leg that's short? I think not. He upholds the entire universe by the word of his power. I don't think you would break a single drop of anthropomorphic sweat, making an amputee grow a new leg.

So it can't be that. So these are tricks. And it doesn't matter to, to Brown that Todd White is intentionally deceiving people. And I will definitively say he is intentionally deceiving people, lying to people.

And the really simple point that's so, it's so hard for, you know, most people want to be nice to a person who seems like they're nice. And Todd White is, is an actor. And he tells people he loves them.

And he's, he's talking about how we need to forgive each other and not be mean to each other. And he says a lot of things that are actually true. So when we say, you know, I don't think he's being honest.

In fact, I think he's intentionally deceiving people. Now we appear like we're the bad guys. And so for the general public, who's trying to figure this stuff out, it's really tough because who do you want to side with the nice guy or the mean guys?

And so we've been portrayed as the mean guys. And so what we have to keep saying, I think, is what does the evidence show? And if it's true that he has had thousands and thousands and thousands of healings, as he claims.

Thousands of people healed in Walmart,.

In grocery stores and what, and because this isn't just about the building, man, this is about everywhere we go. It's a lifestyle. There's thousands and thousands,.

Thousands and thousands and thousands. Then there's some really fair questions that anybody should be asking. Like, for instance, why is it that all the amazing ones that he talks about aren't recorded on film?

And the really minuscule ones that aren't really miracles at all are the ones that do get recorded on cameras. We live in a world where everybody has cameras. And yet what we see are not amazing miracles.

We only hear about the amazing miracles. That's a really good.

Question. It's not mean to ask that. That's right. That's right, Steve. I've been in some of the poorest countries on the planet. I've been to Uganda, you know, slums in India. Everybody has a cell phone with a camera in it.

Wow. Even people living in grass huts have cell phones with cameras in them. So where's the proof? Exactly right. Why is it that the only miracles that are ever recorded are things that are demonstrably and comically false?

But you know what? If we had footage of everything, then the Sid Roth program couldn't put on those incredible presentations, the reenactments. And where would be the joy that we all can have from watching those reenactments, those high quality Hollywood level productions.

That he puts out? Yeah. I want to know where they get those actors, where they get those B, C, D, F actors or whatever. Yeah. F. F. Absolutely. F. One of the things that struck me when I watched Brown interviewing Todd White, I would know that Todd White did most of the talking.

And it was story after story after story. No shred of evidence was presented to back any of the stories up. And there was Michael Brown going, oh, praise God and all this kind of stuff. And on social media, I put a post up and I said, I'm convinced that if Todd White said that he had recently traveled to the International Space Station and converted the entire crew to Christianity by doing a 30 minute spacewalk without a space suit, that Michael Brown would say, praise God.

And then damn any critic as a hyper critic, if they even challenge the question, because the reality is that the stories that he said, this person was healed. I did all these things. And then we didn't have any healings.

And all of a sudden healings began to happen. And now they're happening all the time and stuff like this. This person was healed from this thing and that thing. And I'm sitting there going, documentation, please.

I would like to see the actual doctor's reports. But for Dr. Brown, just hearsay, just him retelling the story. But because there's video evidence that Todd White is pulling people's legs, pun intended, I can't give him the benefit of the doubt.

Nor should anybody. They should be demanding to see the evidence to back up the claims in the stories that he is telling. But Brown just gave him a complete pass. And, you know, and so, you know, Dan Long had a video about Todd White's white lies.

I think that Brown, that Dr. Brown, Brown washed Todd White is the best way I can describe it, because just gave him a complete pass and a clean bill of health with a whole bunch of outrageous stories, and then chastised cessationists, and how it's just so sad that they don't have these kind of stories as a normal part of their church experience.

Well, one of the things on that very topic, Chris, I wanted to make sure I brought this up. He said that all of the cessationists out there, they just don't know any better. They haven't experienced.

This stuff. Yeah, cessationism is ultimately not based on Scripture, but on bad experience,.

Or just being raised in it, and you didn't know. And that's just not true. I went to a charismatic church for many years. So did my wife. We have a lot of friends that still go there. We, that one of the, one of the clips that I used in that video that me and Dan did is a clip from my old church.

My buddy Scott is playing the piano for him. I, I love the guy. These are wonderful people, but we've personally been involved in the circles that Todd White is a part of just back in, what was that, 2013.

So for him to say that we just don't know any better, the truth is a lot of the critics of Todd White and people like him came out of that very movement, and because they were in the movement, and they saw such a discrepancy between what was claimed and what was actually taking place, they said, something's wrong here.

And that's why I started listening to people like, I don't know, there was this one guy I used to listen to all the time. His name was Chris Roseborough, and there was another guy that really, I used to listen to with this guy all the time.

His name is Justin Peters, and I listened to those guys, and I'm like, you know, they actually make a lot more sense than the people at my church, and the people that I'm being told at my church to listen to.

And so thank you guys, by the way. I, I don't have a, I don't have enough opportunities to thank you for what you've done, and I know we take a lot of heat for doing this kind of thing, but it's because we really do care about the truth.

Yeah,.

We do, Steve, and I'll echo what you said. I mean, I've been to, I was in this movement for a season when I was a teenager, and since then, I've been to 18 Benny Hinn crusades. I've been to Kenneth Copeland's quote-unquote church.

I've been to Creflo Dollar meetings, Jesse Duplantis meetings, Joyce Meyer. I've been to Lakewood church. I've been to these things. I've been in the trenches. I know my stuff. I know what goes on. I've talked to the people who have been devastated by this movement.

I've talked to the parents who have sick and dying children in their arms who have been told that it is their lack of faith that their child was not healed. I've seen the devastation from this movement.

We're not talking about theoretical stuff here. These are real people.

Whose lives are being devastated. Let's take that point right there, and Chris, can you play that clip of Todd White just from a few weeks ago? The one where he said it's your fault? Yeah, okay, I got it.

All right. Just in case anybody thinks that Todd White no longer preaches word of faith stuff, this is a really painful example of what he's currently teaching. Yeah, and this is just.

From a few weeks ago. Hang on. I have to know where I'm praying from. I have to take out the limitations and limit God. There are no limitations. The only limitation is between your ears. I promise you, believing the wrong thing when you try to pray in faith, if the only thing in you isn't God wants them healed.

Here, if I pray for somebody and not see them healed, I don't come up with an excuse. I don't come up with a reason. That's pride. Pride says, well, you know, obviously it couldn't be me. It had to be them.

People hate that, especially ministers. Oh, especially pastors, especially leaders. What are you trying to say? I'm trying to say, I just, I'm waiting for the day when this becomes so profuse that when someone tries to give a sick person an excuse of why it didn't happen, they say, well, I thought you were the man of God.

I thought you had the power. Because they get sick and tired of listening to our excuses of why they're not healed. Am I, do I want them to be in forgiveness? Absolutely. Have I seen Christians not receive healing before?

Absolutely. But I'm telling you that they have to see his goodness. They have to see his kindness. It's the only thing that leads them to repentance. And when they see that, it changes everything. Guys, we've so limited God.

We limited him. We don't have to. Like God is unlimited. We could do two hours.

Is God the God of open theism? I mean, what on earth? How do you limit God? This is ridiculous. Which kind of begs the question. There was, there's an aspect, I didn't, I didn't cue a video clip of it, and you can see it in Brown's interview with Todd White on his leg lengthening.

But, um, Todd White was so excited to say that he's asked Dr. Michael Brown for help. And that one time Michael Brown listened to one of his message messages and gave him three pages of notes. Okay. I, I laughed when I heard it.

And the reason is this is that three pages of notes would be about half the notes that I would take in the classes I was required to take in order to become a pastor. Okay. I have, I have a pre-seminary degree, Religious Studies and Biblical Languages from Concordia, Irvine.

That's a four-year degree. I have a seminary degree from the American Lutheran Theological Seminary. Another four-year degree. All of that being said, um, three pages, whole three pages of notes from a coaching session with Michael Brown, and, and, and this guy's good to go.

Right. I mean, so there's something really wrong here, because when you listen to the guy's testimony, you know, he was, he was selling, he was using drugs and ripped off a guy and, and it was shot at, he doesn't know how many bullets, but maybe there were 14 bullets.

Uh, and, uh, and, and he, he turned his life around. And the only thing that he can point to, like his training, is that he spent three and a half months praying for people at Walmart, uh, you know, you know, five, six, seven, 900 people before he started to see manifestations of healing.

But where did this guy go to study and show himself approved? Which, which church body did he present himself before to be examined theological, theologically, to make sure he's a sound teacher and that he's qualified to be teaching Christ's church anything, because he's basically created his own brand of Christianity based upon his experiences.

No, it's a copy from Dan Moeller. That's all it is. He verbatim copied Dan Moeller. If you listen to Dan Moeller, you're listening to Todd White. It's the same thing, but.

Dan's my father. He's like my spiritual daddy. He just is. I'm preaching the gospel according to Dan Moeller right now. I had my dose of Dan, my cup runneth over.

But that's, that's his seminary. He went to the seminary of Dan Moeller and Dan Moeller had an experience with God in 1995 that taught him everything he needed to know.

Yeah. And that, that brings up a whole other ball of wax. We could do a whole other program on, but so many of these prominent charismatic preachers, they claim to be doctor, like Dr. Jesse Duplantis.

They don't have doctorate degrees. I think even Alexander Pagani claims he's got some doctorate, right? You did a thing on that. I did a thing on that. It's totally fake. These are made up degrees. They're not even real.

Like you get them out of a Cracker Jack box. They're not real institutions. They're not accredited. It's like a Happy Meal toy that you get out of McDonald's. They're worthless. But so many of these charismatic preachers, they have no training.

They've just aped what they've seen other successful quote unquote ones do. So I was interviewing Jim Osmond one time. We were talking about Todd White and we were looking at a video in which Todd White actually said, I have this on my YouTube channel, that when Jesus was on the cross, he turned into, he became bestiality.

He became child molestation, which is a gross misinterpretation of St. Corinthians 521. But giving a pulpit, as it were, to Todd White and pretty much all of these popular charismatic preachers is like giving a hammer to a two-year-old.

They're going to do a lot of damage. That's what you see with Todd White. And by his own admission, I'll throw this in there too, by his own admission, a few years ago, he had been preaching the gospel wrong because he never, ever, ever said anything about sin or repentance or the wrath of God ever.

And even today, when I watch him go up to people and share the gospel, all he does, he slathers praise on people and tells them how wonderful they are, how awesome God thinks they are. And then he'll say, have you ever asked Jesus into your heart to live inside of your heart?

And if a person says no, then he grabs their hands. He says, pray this prayer after me. All of this is temporary. Have you ever asked.

Jesus to come and make his home in your heart? I haven't. Would you pray with me? Right now? Yeah. She ended up giving her life to Christ this morning. Come and make your home in my heart right now. Holy Spirit.

All I want is for people to know that God is real. We can all be examples of his grace. We can be trophies of his grace, an example of what it looks like for somebody to walk, yield it, live a life worthy of the call.

God will change everything. Hey, sorry about that,.

Buddy. I was sharing the gospel. He loves you. And he recites a packaged version of the quote unquote sinner's prayer and gets that person to recite it. But there's no explanation of it. There's no understanding on the part of that person.

It's like a theological abracadabra there's no place like home. And we're back in Kansas. I've got a clip of that, Chris,.

If you can cue that up. It's the You're Amazing gospel. Yeah. And you'll see how he explains it.

To Dr. Michael Brown. Yeah. Here we go. What do you mean you're amazing in his eyes? Because we're sinners under judgment and he sees our sin. And if we die, we're lost. We're hellbound. So.

What do you mean when you tell the person you're amazing? When I tell somebody they're amazing in his eyes, it's because God knows their whole life, their whole lifespan. There's a time for everybody to be born, but there's a time for everyone to be born again.

I have the capability to interrupt that right there and to bring the gospel. So when I say they're amazing, there are attributes about somebody that they don't even know that they'll have with their born again life.

So I am speaking to a future tense in their life. Okay, got it. You preach sin, repentance. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I preach sin and repentance. Yeah, that's a ticket.

Anybody with a theological IQ above freezing should be able to recognize that there is a problem even to this very day. Todd White doesn't know how to present the gospel. Everybody already thinks they're amazing.

We all think we're amazing. We're all in love with ourselves. That's the whole problem. That's what the gospel fixes. You know, you've got to be brought low before you can understand. Until you understand the wrath of God, the mercy of God makes no sense.

So.

Everybody out there thinks they're amazing. And which of the apostles in their preaching of the gospel ever told their audience, I'm just here to let you know that you are amazing. You are the apple of God's eye.

And I'm speaking about a future tense of what you will be after you're born again, but I just want to let you know, oh man, God says you're amazing. I don't see that anywhere. Instead, I hear the apostles saying, repent, you stiff-necked and obstinate people.

You know, it's like this. But they're amazing, stiff-necked and obstinate people, Chris. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Thanks for correcting me. If you're out in public and.

You're talking to, or you're being approached by complete strangers and they're being really super nice to you, just total strangers out of the blue, it's almost impossible for most people to think critically and to say the thing that would normally be appropriate, because we want to be polite to complete strangers.

And I see Todd taking advantage of that and getting the response from people that he knows he can get by being so charming and friendly and loving to people. And he gets the response he wants and he gets it on camera.

And that's the whole reason why he became famous, because he was out there doing it, man. He's out there, what are you guys doing? You're just preaching sermons in churches and stuff, but he's out in the streets, man.

He's really doing it. And he admitted he was a great salesperson. Getting a job as a salesperson,.

Because I was a con artist. I could sell anything. I sold drugs, so I could sell anything.

So what we're seeing is a great salesperson. And what is he really selling? He says he's selling Christianity and the real Christian life, but he's selling himself and the life that he's leading. And when you buy into it, you're supposed to do what he's doing.

And in order for you to do what he's doing, you've got to go and listen to him over and over and over again. It's like this addictive.

Thing. How is that any different than the love-bombing technique that narcissists engage in?

Yeah, that's exactly right. And notice Brown, when Todd White gave that theologically bankrupt answer, biblically untenable answer, Brown was just like, oh okay, okay, yeah, got it. Like, no, no, that's not the gospel.

I'm an evangelist. Yes, I preach in churches, but I also share the gospel by God's grace everywhere I go. And the Bible, Ephesians 4 .15, we're to speak the truth in love. There is a way to speak the truth, yes, and it's not to be a jerk about it.