Conversation with an EX-LDS

Apologia Utah

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I've got this for you. Here you go. Oh, I've got this for you right here. Oh, what is it? Yeah, it's a gospel for LDS track.

00:06

Are you LDS? I was. You were. So what's going on now? So I'm a candidate. Yeah, dude. What's going on?

00:12

It's a cult. Okay, yeah. I realized that very recently. How'd you leave? Well, it was very recent and very sudden.

00:19

Okay. I moved to New York for the Sound Farm New York. Okay. I was going to BYU. Went to New York, explained to people what it was like to go to BYU, and they were all like, that's crazy.

00:29

Right. I was like, you know what? Yeah, it is. Then I looked into it. It was a bunch of shit. Right. And I'm here just to tie up loose ends and get my transcripts done, and I'm going to go back to the city.

00:40

Gotcha. Was there anything in particular that was the straw that broke the camel's back? So I kind of knew for a couple years low -key that things just weren't doing what it needed to be doing.

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Yeah. I don't like that people are told that they need to pay 10 % of their income.

01:00

Even college students? Oh, anyone. Oh, wow. Okay. But also, it's like, the church is a billion -dollar organization.

01:07

Why do you need people's money? And then you tell them, like, you have to pay 10%. You'll get blessings. Even if you're, like, poor.

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Right. Why? Like, that's rude. And then they hate gay people, so that's, like, annoying. And then, yeah, it wasn't my thing.

01:20

How did you become LDS? Born into it. So, wow. From New York. Just trying to figure that out.

01:26

Both my parents. My dad was Jewish, and he joined the Mormon church when he was 25. What? In the world? I know. He's still in it?

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Yeah. And he loves it. But, like, not in, like, a crazy way. In, like, a... He's, like... Cultural.

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He's progressive. Yeah. He's very cultural. We have a lot of religious backgrounds, a lot of other religions.

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My mom was Catholic. She joined the church when she was 19. Oh, my goodness. Found out that they didn't like black people, so she left.

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Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. And then came back, and then met my dad. They got married. They had three kids. Here I am.

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Have you ever? So, what was that like, though? Like, you know, you went into it, and you thought about, like, they taught you all of these things.

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Oh, I loved it. And then, like, did you feel betrayed, or was it... Yeah. Well, it was... It was odd.

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My older sister, she left the church before I did. Okay. My middle sister, she's very into it. She wanted a mission. She did the whole nine yards.

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She's still very into it. Still posts about it every day. Loves it so much. And we kind of just, like, okay, best friend. Go crazy.

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Love you. But, like, me and my older sister and her husband were all, like, kind of, like, out. My older sister,

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Sarah, she went to Bay Area for five years as well. The week she graduated was the week she got married, and it was the week she moved her records. Yeah.

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Big week for her. Yeah. I haven't moved my records yet. My parents don't think I'm very active.

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Yeah. But all of my family, all my dad's family, they don't give a shit, because they're all Jewish. They couldn't care less. Right. My dad left

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Judaism to be Mormon. They weren't very proud of him. They were, like, pissed. We're all friends now, so that's good, but...

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Yeah. So... Yeah. Would that make you, then... What's your name, by the way? I'm Rebecca. Rebecca. Jeremiah. Andrew.

02:51

Nice to meet you. Desti. Hey, everyone. How's it going? So, right now, like, I know the majority of people who leave

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Mormons, they typically end up, like, atheist or agnostic and whatnot. Like, do you have an idea of what category you sort into?

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You try to figure things out? So, the reason I was very, very into... Because I was very, very into the church. Yeah. The reason I was super into it was also the reason

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I have my major. So, I'm an astrophysics major. Oh, wow. So, I'm doing physics and astronomy and all that stuff. And the reason

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I loved it so much, because it's like... And I know people say, like, oh, science and religion don't mix. I'm the kind of person that's like, science can't exist without religion.

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Oh, no. You're 110 % right. Like, I'm very... But I'm also very good at making it literal and saying, like, oh, like...

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Oh, hi. Are you all friends? Yeah. Okay, word. Yeah. But...

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So, I'm very into the idea that, like, science was created by a creator. Yeah. But it makes sense in a way that we can remove that aspect, as well, for people who don't believe.

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If that makes sense. Yeah. So, because I don't think... I don't think that everyone should believe a certain type of doctrine in any way, only because, like, other people are different.

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People come from different cultures. We can't tell people they've lived wrong because they never learned, I guess. Or they never got the opportunity to learn.

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Yeah. But my big thing about, like, being a physicist or an astrophysicist was, like, if I know how great space is, how incredible it is...

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But I can't see it from here. We can't see it from here. It's put there because God knew that we were going to be so progressive and worked so hard together and create the technology necessary to search out and find those things.

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Hundreds of years ago, and we've adapted all of these new things to create technology so we can see outer space all the time in many different ways.

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We're discovering new things every day. Yeah. If we weren't meant to discover that, we wouldn't. Right. So, I'm guessing...

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If we weren't meant to see it, it wouldn't be that pretty either. Yeah. So, I think it's that kind of thing. It's like we worked together and we finally found it and God was like, well, that's my gift to you.

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Look how good y 'all did. This is great. And you get to see it if you didn't work so hard. You wouldn't be able to see it. And that's kind of my philosophy for life.

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If it wasn't meant to happen, it wouldn't be as great. So, about life, just anything.

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Hard decisions. Making hard decisions. Doing hard things. Challenging things that are hard for you to do emotionally.

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Once you do them, your life is so much better. It's like God saying, look at you. You did it. You worked for yourself. So, you believe in science and astrophysics.

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So, I'm guessing you believe in absolutes. Like there's truth. Absolute truth. Oh, there's truth in everything.

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I totally believe that there's truth everywhere. But it's also, it's all relative. So, you believe in a

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God, right? Absolutely. So, do you think that this God would then create an absolute truth?

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Like, this is true, this is false. Here's the thing. I think God knows what's going on.

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I think he put people on earth to figure out what was going on. I do not believe anybody knows exactly what's going on.

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Unless he revealed it himself. Would you have that belief though? Would you have perfect knowledge?

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Perfect knowledge to be a hundred certain hundred percent certain that knowledge claim that we can't perfectly know that Who's to say like what

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I like it's like. I feel like I'm not the kind of person to say Anybody's right or wrong unless you're doing something bad.

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I'm assuming bad. You're wrong How would you determine if something was bad though? Oh like crime?

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Like so but how would you determine that that if that was bad? Morally you'd like you feel rules.

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Yeah, that's for sure. What do you think those morals come from though? Like do you think like so you're saying you said you believe like crime is wrong murder is wrong

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And I would absolutely agree, but I would agree because there's a standard that says that something is absolutely wrong

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Right apart from that I have you have your opinion.

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I have mine and what if I say Prove me wrong

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Right police Yeah, but the word of God the

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Bible says that God is right so but it also says

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You have this word to go to and test that like what is this right or wrong? God says thou shalt not murder.

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I have that I didn't have to ask you Yes, I said what's wrong and you're like murders wrong like I didn't need to show you that because God put his law in your heart

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That's what I believe. That's what the scripture says that God wrote his law in our heart that we all know right from wrong

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We have a conscience and our conscience will bear witness either against us or for us the

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Bible says on the day of judgment Have you read this before Romans 2? Yes Yes, yeah, well even to just real quickly is that you know when you said initially you wrote

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Mormon You found out that it was BS, and then you know, but there's other people that you know

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Probably me. I'm assuming probably still have classmates that still believe in it. They bear their testimony and for them.

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It's true So like what what would be the standard like a guideline and I think you'd use for to say that You know, this is this is actually

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BS and for them it's and then like they're deceived or they're wrong Like what's what's your guiding light?

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I don't believe it. I can't say that they're wrong based on their own perspective how they've lived life

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You know like the things because I think about so it's not fully untrue. It's just untrue just for you

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Exactly it's like I I think in my personal opinion Everyone's own personal relationship with God is their own personal my person my relationship with God It's not like any of yours your relationship with God's unlike anything like mine

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I think it's better to go off the faith that you have in your God and in the God that you believe in and how you feel like he

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Shows himself in your life and what he shows you to do and how he shows you how to live It's different to me than it is anybody else

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Yeah, if people want to believe in Mormonism cool go crazy if you want to be in Catholicism go crazy Have so much fun if you are inherently a good person and you're doing it for the right reasons

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We're doing it for like so because you know in your heart that it's good And it's like solid and you know, you're not doing anything like messed up or illegal like yeah

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Oh, I have so much fun and there is always that kind of thing where it's like Oh, there is a truth out there. Go get it. Go find it.

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Yeah, if you Feel or if you feel like your relationship with God and you feel like everything you're doing is right

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I feel like everyone's good and at the end of the day We've all been told what we like what we think happens after we die.

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We don't know that's where faith comes in Same thing how I said about like how man's interpretation of words of God Is different from anyone else's the

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Bible has been translated multiple multiple times So is the Book of Mormon? things have been shifted man has gotten in the way and Things change if you feel in your soul that something is true and something's right and that's your truth

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So people are you don't you would only believe that though, too

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In their heart that it's okay to go ahead and be a child There's plenty of people who are child molesters.

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For example, they feel totally remember. Is that their truth? But who's by crime by everyone has no everyone has their own truth.

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It sounds like Why are we making it like that? Okay, let me let me say it this way then like there's some sects in Islam that say it's righteous and good to murder the infidel to kill certain types of people to kill

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Jews and stuff like that Yeah, like the Taliban in Afghanistan right now They say it's righteous to purge the land of these evil people to murder them.

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They say God for them God they think that that's their truth and that they have found it out of a book from Muhammad in the

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Quran and So what makes you know certain truths? Okay, and some truths not

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I guess Okay Okay, like there's like prophets and stuff like those are men those are people who are saying they speak for God, okay

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We can't trust them if they do or don't. That's why I like my big problem in Mormon Church is I don't think we should have any modern prophets

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Yeah, like how am I supposed to trust that they speak for God to me and I'm supposed to listen to them?

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That's just some guy. Okay. So at some point at some point Maybe morally or ethically

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Someone's truth can be an error. It sounds like yeah, so you could believe something

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Okay I believe that this is the way to be the end of the world and how we're all gonna get there and I'm gonna

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Get married have a hundred kids and call it a night And you know and when I wanted to be a physicist everyone hated me

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It's like why don't you want to be a mom? Like I don't want to be. So you're saying it's untrue The way that you should be because you were taught in this way and I'm like, okay, well

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You guys I guess okay, so it's not true for you But again, so I guess what

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I'm trying to figure out with you. I'm sorry. What's your name again? Rebecca, I'm Wade. I'm a pastor up in Salt Lake Valley.

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So We have truth right and Truth claims are like like like this brother was getting at absolutes, you know

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And we can take things like mathematics two plus two equals four and we can say that's an absolute claim

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Like that's a that's a truth claim so when we take that even with morals and stuff what we're trying to tell you is now shall not murder is as fact and Absolute as two plus two equals four and it's not five

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So that that truth of you shall not murder is higher and transcendent above you know people's interpretations of different truths or religions or Ancient, you know books or anything like that.

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So basically what I'm getting at is It can't just be subjective or individualistic

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There's got to be truth that is transcendent an objective which means it's solid.

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It doesn't change This is true. And so we're going where does that come from?

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And and we're we're contending that it's from God's Word from from the

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Christian God In the Holy Bible that he has established it and and it's not even just in his word

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He is that way so God is just perfectly just so when he does something

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It is just when when when he does something he is good

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And so therefore what he does is good because he is good it manifests out of his attributes So so that's what we're getting at is is that?

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Okay, so Islam Judaism Mormonism Jehovah's Witness evangelical

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Christians Catholics Hindus, you know Buddhists they all say they have truth

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But when we look at it like okay, but no, like I said, there's an objective Transcendent solid rock truth like two plus two equals four

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Truth out there. How can they all say they possess it? Which would if they all possess truth and because therefore they all contradict each other then they're all not true

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Then that's a god of confusion So so so which one then we have to then go around and go which one is actually true

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Is what I'm is what I'm trying to get at. So is it Mormonism? This is that and so again our contention and our and our loving, you know

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Admonishment to people out here is that there there is truth out there. It's solid It's a firm foundation and it's in the and it's

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Jesus Christ He says I am the way the truth and the life. He says he is truth.

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He's truth embodied Actually in John 1 it says he is the logos in the Greek. He is the logos

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He is the word which is where we get all the ologies right in science and stuff like that Jesus is

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I am the logos. I am the word made flesh. He he is He's perfection and wisdom and truth.

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And so we look to Jesus. We look to his word. We look to God For that.

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So anyways, what are your thoughts about some of that? I guess is this a church?

14:55

we we're We're a church Christian Church. Yeah. Yeah We're apology a church apology that comes from the

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Greek word apologia, which means like defense for the faith, you know Yeah. Yeah.

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And so the thing is too we won't be appealing to like say don't take our word for it We would always appeal to a standard.

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It's not our truth in the sense that we would say this is our personal experience This is what we feel we're saying.

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This is revelatory. This is a standard above ourselves. We can fail you. Yeah I'm a fallible man.

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Yeah, you know But yeah, we're trying to tell you something that won't fail you yeah, so I sorry

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I actually I thought it was really cool though I really admire you as soon as you start talking about astrophysics. You just got excited, you know

15:41

Yeah, yeah What was the first time the first thing you ever saw the most you want to be an astrophysicist

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I'm I was Yeah, yeah,

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I'm original from Mesa, Arizona Origin in California all from Arizona Arizona.

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We were planting a church out. We just moved out here to a church. We're all Yeah, so Okay, so just during that time.

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It was just that why there's that wonder of like what is out? Yeah, my parents let us all pick what we wanted to learn Yeah, and so we kind of they kind of gave us a bunch of options

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Yeah, what works for you and like what do you want to do by the age of four? I was like only looking at like National Geographic about space.

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Yeah, like we have like super cool Just me like looking at maps of like like different planets and what they mean what they do.

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So I was super interested into it I actually loved it.

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So I did that time. I got an internship at NASA I got a full scholarship for right at BYU because I need their diversity to go up So I showed up I brought up the fun fact you are you is so not diverse.

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I brought up the whole school I brought it up by 3 % Person. Oh, wow. This is whitey white central

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They're gonna bring our score My wife's

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Hispanic, so You said a few things that really resonated with me earlier, which I am at a hundred and ten percent agreement

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We are as well in terms of modern -day prophets. We would also agree according to the Bible It says in Hebrews 1 it says long ago and many times in many ways

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God spoke to our fathers through the prophets but in these last days he has spoken to us through his son, right and What's interesting to me is you can understand in the terms of there being near human beings, right?

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And the sad thing about the LDS religion and I'm gonna talk to you in the terms of trying to think back to when you were

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Okay They want to make you think that the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts There's arguments where they say that the

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Bible has been translated so many times It went from Latin from Latin to English from English to Spanish and all these things regardless of that because we can get into that a little bit later if you want to But there's actually two tests of a prophet in the

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Bible and they won't tell you that in the LDS organization There's Deuteronomy 13 and 18 Deuteronomy 13 says if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles signs and wonders

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But leads you after other gods gods, which you have not known do not believe them, right? So there's one standard and then

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Deuteronomy 18 says if there's one false prophecy from someone who claims to speak in the name of God False prophet don't believe them

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God's law then says put them to death That's how serious God takes it because God loves us so much that he's not a god of confusion that he has revealed

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Himself to us in Scripture so we can know and believe and understand who he is Right. So in terms of who

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Jesus is I want to present you with the Jesus of Scripture not the Jesus of the LDS faith Okay, so just listen for a minute the

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Jesus of the LDS faith is this he's the spiritual offspring of Elohim in one of his wives

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Lucifer is his spirit brother, right? The Jesus of Scripture is this in John 1 it says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God in the word

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Was God all things were created through him? There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through him

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You can cross -check me in Scripture and in Colossians 1 15 or 16 It says that Jesus Christ created all things on heaven and on earth

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Visible and invisible so the Jesus of the Bible actually created Lucifer, right?

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So I'm presenting you with this today that according to Scripture that Joseph Smith fails that test of a prophet

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Which you would agree you don't think he was a true prophet. That's why you reject the religion But what I'm trying to say is that they led you after a

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God that wasn't real a God that was never there in the first place the true Jesus as Pastor Wade was saying he says

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I am the way the truth in the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

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So in that claim from Jesus, he's saying this he says Buddha can't get you to God, right?

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Muhammad can't get you to God. No other religion except Jesus Christ And this is why it's because if you read

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Romans 4 through 6 It says that we're not sons of God in this pre -existence from Elohim, right?

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It says we're actually offspring of Adam and Eve in Isaiah 45 It says that God created the earth and then he formed man on it and breathed within us the breath of life from God So we're created in the image of God, which means that we want to know who

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God is We want to search for truth. We want to apprehend it, right? But in the beginning with Adam and Eve Adam sinned in the garden, right?

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Eve sinned God created the tree if the fruit of knowledge of good and evil You've heard the story and God says you can eat of anything you want in the garden

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But don't eat from that fruit of which I have commanded you and then Satan appears as the serpent

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He says to Eve did God really say that and guess what you can become just like God That's why

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God doesn't want you to eat that fruit And in that moment when Eve eats that fruit takes it to her husband their eyes are open

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There's eternal separation from God because what pastor Wade was saying earlier is that God is perfect. He's holy.

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Holy. Holy thrice Holy that means the one wrong thing separates us from him for all eternity, right?

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Have you ever lied? Me too, according to God's standards He would say that you're a liar and if you stood before him you're worthy of going to hell for all eternity

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Why because he's just he will punish wrong. Okay, but the beautiful thing about Jesus is this is

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God always had a plan of redemption It's for his glory and his glory alone He says there will be a people that will fall but I'm going to send my son

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He will be perfectly righteous and obedient to the law Flawless, that's Jesus. He comes and takes on flesh and he dies on the cross the death that we deserve

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Right, he takes our sin. It's imputed to him and then he gives us his righteousness in exchange

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He says there's nothing you can do to make yourself good before God. No, I did it for you

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It's a gift salvation is a gift So when Jesus died on the cross, he satisfied the wrath of God for his people in John 6

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It says that no one can come to the father No, no one will come to the father unless they're drawn to Jesus by the father

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No one can what no one will come to him unless the father who sent him will draw him That's the verse in John chapter 6 So the call that we have for you today is that you can actually have certainty in who

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God is, right? There's every world religion regardless of the spirit of the age that we live in with this whole let's be excluse

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Inclusive of all different religions all of them claim exclusivity if you talk to a true Hindu They'll look at the spirit of the age of the people who walk around modern

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American. They say you don't know what you're talking about That's not true. They wouldn't agree with Jesus. Take care

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So the beautiful thing is this is that the true Jesus of Scripture the Jesus of Nazareth who lived there's still an empty tomb

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He died the death that we deserve He rose from the dead Conquering death and now he sits at the right hand of God ruling in reigning now

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And all we need to do is put our trust in him. So what if you came here today, right?

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You have left the LDS religion You've left the faith and God has appointed to you people who had actually come and share with you who the true

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Jesus of Scripture is Right. I can't change your heart Only God can change your heart, but the call of the gospel is to repent of our sins.

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I'm a wicked sinner. Trust me I'm not perfect. The Bible says anyone who says that they are without sin.

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The truth is not in them Even when I'm saved I still make mistakes, right? But it's not my righteousness that he's justified before God looking perfect Yeah, it's it's only

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Jesus's righteousness. That's the beautiful thing about it. It's a gift gift from God So my righteousness is bound up in Christ and today you can have salvation

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So when you die, you can worship God in spirit and truth the God that's in the heavens that you yeah

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Yeah, it's the God that is calling you to believe in his son. Yeah, and that's what we're saying today yeah, and what

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I was beautiful and what I was going with you was saying earlier back was that uh, The when I bring what I brought up astrophysics and just the

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Fasten be like this the wonder that you have about it is that it reminds me too of one time I saw

23:46

Lawrence Krauss and he was on the Joe Rogan experience and he was talking to about, you know First he tried to dog religion and then obviously, you know where he stands being an atheist

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But as he as he progressed in the podcast He just got so like just ostracized just why

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I'd wonder about the complexity of the universe and in that moment He was it's almost as if he was worshiping

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He was giving praise to the creation that the Bible says that all of us we give

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We praise the creation the creature rather than the Romans chapter one. Yeah, so it's what separates us from God so in many ways like our sin separates us from God, but ultimately like the beauty of the of the true gospel, like I said, you were dealing with a counterfeit and There's someone

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I really admire named Walter Martin that said the existence of a counterfeit Predicates the authenticity of original right?

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So there's the reason why there's counterfeit currency out there is because there's legit currency you have to know how to differentiate between the two and the legitimate the often the authentic Jesus Christ is the one who created all things, you know

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All The smartest minds like way smarter than you or I or anyone else in a moment

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He said let there be and there there was like that's that's the God that I believe that the

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Bible says God's put eternity in the hearts of men and that we are created to have a relationship and trying

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God Who is the creator of all these things? So I think in a sense like that's that's what you were created for It's just this our sin that separates us from God and I would say

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I don't don't take our word for it Yeah, I would take our word for it like take a Bible like go to go to the gospel of John Just read it for what it is.

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Not through the lens of Not through the lens of like the LDS Church or we're saying just like we're shy's

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Yeah just fresh eyes like read it for what it is and just read it about it and like pass like God if this is real and ask him to reveal it to you and Yes You're asking her to get a burning in the bosom right now

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The difference with them is it's a subjective experience. No, there's no We're messing with them

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I would just say like take a look at that especially in John 1 1

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When it says like all things were made by him without him There's not anything that was made like that verse is powerful if that's true like that has legitimacy that all every little aspect of science and astrophysics and all those all the complexities of the universe down to the complexity of the human eye to how our

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DNA is constructed to The cosmos and those things that people like Neil deGrasse Tyson They they give praise to the creation, but they suppress the truth and unrighteousness.

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They don't give the praise where it's doing, right? So we got to be careful You know how we feel about certain things because I'm gonna feel different than him

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He's gonna feel different. Yeah, which is what you're talking about earlier What you're talking about, but we would say that that's how we feel doesn't determine truth

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We must have a standard outside of us which determines truth and only an all -knowing

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God can determine truth and we believe and know that he has revealed himself in creation

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The things around us in his son Jesus Truly is he is

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God and in the Holy Scriptures that he has given us He wanted to reveal himself to us and he says that in Romans 1 that we all know him

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But we know of the one true God But it says that for those that he calls he gives the right to adopt into his family

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He had he adopts us, right? We're not all merely children of God Adopts us into his family and he does that by drawing us in revealing himself to us

27:49

And revealing truth and giving us faith as a gift as my brother said, it's a gift

27:55

It's not I'm not gonna get there like my wise thinking my feelings

28:01

They're not gonna get there But it's God revealing himself through his word through his truth and through his spirit

28:08

That gets us there if he does it I can't do it none of us here can do what do you think about all that?

28:15

We should we just say the whole Yeah I do

28:22

I They're good. I don't have a question for sure. Um In the way that you believe of how would like what we are here for.

28:32

How did how do you? I believe Why do you think we are here sure, yeah,

28:40

I know it's a good question Really the Bible demonstrates Sure, I'm gonna make it very simple

28:46

We are here to give God glory to glorify him and to enjoy him forever

28:53

We're to enjoy all of this like I'm enjoying this evening and I'm enjoying it because there is a

29:00

God who made it such like and so So you're saying why did it all happen? Yeah, we just like in the

29:06

Mormon Church We believe that there was like a good discussion and then it was like, oh Jesus you're gonna go down and then yeah Satan was like, no,

29:11

I'll do it. No, they got in a fight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then and then the one third I don't know what else happened

29:17

But then Adam you showed up and then we all showed up and like how everyone Sure had like a title like a name in heaven and then we're all gonna go back up and stuff

29:25

But I'm like, but then I'm also an astrophysicist. Yeah, so then I also have to take the big bang into account.

29:31

Yeah So it's merely for his good pleasure like he enjoyed we don't so none of what you just said it is in the

29:38

Bible We don't see any of that All that we can see in Genesis and throughout

29:44

Yeah In his good pleasure He decided to make to create this and he made man is in his own image so that we would glorify him that we would

29:56

That we would just marvel at the heavens, you know, it says for the heavens are telling of the glory of God That's what the psalm says the heavens are telling of the glory of God Have you ever seen like you ever been somewhere camping and you've seen the

30:09

Milky Way or something like that? It's just like it's like the stars are we can't tell right now

30:14

But they're literally touching each other from earth when we look up and we're in a place like that It's glorious like we can look at that and marvel and and glorify

30:25

God in that I think and so But ultimately also is his great desire

30:31

Was and has always been there was no plan B his plan a has always been to send

30:37

Jesus Christ Into this world to rescue this world and a lot of what you're asking are big big questions about well then why did we fall and Why do we sin and why is there brokenness in the world and we can definitely go through all that But the fact of the matter is it pleased

30:56

God and it glorified him To make all this and to make us that we would enjoy him and glorify him and in all our actions

31:05

So that even get this so that even when the

31:10

Taliban Murders and pillages and rapes women and children and holds them in slavery and Ravages them for weeks on end until that woman finally dies

31:22

That all that can happen and in in our being we crave justice

31:28

Right, so then when we when we if someone were to murder my wife if someone were to you know

31:35

Again the Afghani's like when I look at that I crave justice and to know that God is glorified in one day

31:42

It may not happen now. They may get away with it now not for eternity But but not for all eternity that God will have perfect justice

31:50

You know and I I glorify God because of that, you know, and I don't understand

31:57

Exactly everything that happens and why he purposes it to be so we have faith in what he's doing that he's he's benevolent he's good and Yeah, like my brother said like a lot of what we're saying could even sound

32:11

LDS in some They speak Christian ease. The problem is we have similar words, but different dictionaries

32:18

They mean something totally different Often than what we're saying Right. So anyways,

32:23

I don't know if that suffices Yeah Like Who says that some of the kids

32:45

Or like people who have their religion, but reject Christ as Messiah Like how

33:04

Asia doesn't we have like a main religion and like Yeah, yeah

33:13

Christian, yeah, you'll probably honestly disagree with us But we believe again like for us, we're scripture alone people.

33:22

We're not believe that like when we all die And we're like in that little like waiting period of like where we're gonna go.

33:29

Well, there is a waiting Well sure So actually Hebrews 9 27 says it is appointed for man and with man and woman to die once Then comes the judgment and so at that point, you know

33:40

LDS kind of have in a similar way like a purgatory or The different levels of heaven from our understanding biblically you will either go to Heaven and in a way the resurrection of our of our bodies or you will go to hell in a way

33:56

Final judgment where it says in the Revelation that people will be cast in lake of fire So but to answer your question previously and where you might disagree with us and disagree with the

34:07

Bible possibly And so, you know, let me put this out there and see what you think So in Romans chapter 3, it says that no one seeks after God no one does good not even one

34:18

It says that all have sinned and falch falch fallen short of the glory of God That everyone in this world

34:26

Sins and it says in Genesis 6 that man's thoughts are continually evil always and so you're going like well, that's that's nuts

34:35

Can we all be that bad? I know a lot of good people, you know Seem like pretty nice people, but again, we are saying

34:43

But we're not what not what we're saying that the Bible demonstrate is demonstrates is that God is so perfectly holy

34:50

That anything that is contrary to his attributes and his being is an offense to him

34:55

So, you know, there's good quote -unquote good people walking down the street

35:00

But I'm sure they a lot of them love pornography. They love to lie They love to maybe blaspheme

35:06

God and take his name in vain and they take his name in vain in different ways I'm sure they don't worship him perfectly

35:15

None of us do They Jesus Jesus says that if you look after look at a man or woman and lust it with your heart

35:23

You've committed adultery with them If you hate someone for a time you've committed murder in your heart with them and so we have this standard up here and We can't attain it and that's what we're saying is that God is so perfectly holy he must punish sinners

35:41

And it's just kind of like back to the judge thing. So it's okay So in this town in Provo you have a guy that I'm gonna bring back the rape and murder thing

35:51

You have a guy that has taken some women and he's Raped them and murdered them and now that man's been caught by the police and he's before the judge, right?

36:01

Okay, so they're in a court of law and there's the judge and there's the man and he's about to receive his sentencing but before he says you haven't the judge says do you have any final words and he says well, yeah,

36:12

I Tried my best to be a good person before I started doing this stuff and having these thoughts and doing these things

36:18

You know, I I would give to people on the side of the road. I'd give them money I would take care of my grandma.

36:24

Sometimes I would do these things that I thought were pretty good. I went to school I got an education Altogether I believe in God and the judge goes, you know what?

36:34

That sounds pretty good. I'm gonna let you go free even though there's all these women that have been raped and murdered

36:40

Yeah traumatized you name it eyes. And so if there be public outcry, right? like all over the news and everything there'd be public outcry and they go that is a

36:52

Terrible judge that is a wicked judge for him fired. He should be fired for him

36:57

To say because of a few things he did with his grandma and he thought good thoughts sometimes he did this

37:02

He would be let go for what he did. But the reality is the Bible shows that We're all like that man.

37:10

I've I've lusted and committed adultery in my mind with women I've murdered people in my heart according to the

37:17

Bible and again in the book of James It says if you fail in one part of the law

37:22

If you did the whole law if you did all the commandments and everything and if you failed in one part

37:27

He says you failed in it all because God is it's it's almost hard to attain to even consider to contemplate

37:34

But God is so perfectly holy and just it's just nothing that is sinful can come near him

37:41

So it says in Romans the wages of sin is death And so someone has to die either we're gonna die spiritually for all eternity or Jesus Christ God in the flesh can die and he did and he died so that's what we're saying

37:58

So it is like he was saying there's a lot of people saying Oh religion.

38:03

They're all inclusive No, they're all saying they're the way right? But the Bible makes it clear that it is the only way through Christ is the only way

38:11

So but the free gift is for everyone. So so so again, I don't know what your thoughts are

38:17

But yes in the end if someone does not believe in the free gift of Jesus Christ and His death which took those sins, right?

38:28

So all that filthiness and all that disobedience. I'm talking about that I commit Jesus on the cross literally took all that wickedness my murderous thoughts

38:37

My adultery is in my heart and he took those on himself on the cross It says in Isaiah 53 and it says that God in his perfect holiness

38:47

He poured out his wrath his anger his holy righteous anger upon Jesus as a substitute

38:54

So that if you Rebecca if you believe on what Christ did on the cross that he died was buried and rose again

39:03

Proving that he is Conquered death in the grave if you believe on that and turn to him and repent from your sins and follow

39:10

Christ And not that you're gonna be perfect till you die because you're not that's the point. That's the gospel

39:16

He if you believe on that That sacrifice is sufficient because animals could never do it in the ancient days

39:24

There was animal sacrifices to atone for sin the blood and bulls of goats could never do what

39:30

Jesus Christ did his blood Because he is the Son of God Was what satisfied?

39:36

Raphica, he's the perfect. He's the perfect sacrifice. So you believe on him?

39:42

He will sacrifice himself for you he has Okay Great question.

39:52

Yeah question. So that's a good that's a good question. So We're saying well, let me make a quick thing

40:04

We're saying the sins that he's atoned for are the sins of his people

40:10

So so God doesn't send people to hell whose sin he's paid for That wouldn't make sense, right?

40:19

Okay, so Jesus you took my place. Why am I going to hell? No, that's not that's not what the

40:25

Bible says The Bible says that he died for his people the people who have turned

40:31

By faith and repentance to him and that's what this brother was saying earlier because you know

40:36

LDS say we're all children of God. We're children of God every single one. That's not what the

40:42

Bible says We're all we're all children of Adam But it says in John 1 it says that by Jesus He gave us the right to be called children of God through Jesus To be adopted in as a son or daughter so that when you

40:56

Rebecca believe on Christ the true Christ Not the created one in the LDS Church, but the uncreated from all eternity

41:04

Jesus Christ From eternity this way into eternity that way if you believe on that Christ Then you have forgiveness of sins and you have been adopted in But if you haven't heard it, okay, okay

41:18

That's a good question so One of the things that the

41:24

Bible has there's general revelation. There's specific revelation So psalm 19 for example would be an example general revelation

41:31

Which is that the heavens declared the glory of God the skies proclaimed their handiwork And so there's a there's this general revelation that shows people

41:39

Explicitly there is a God that you must worship. And so there's that but also in Romans 2

41:47

Paul gives a good example He makes the whole case the entire world is under sin Both at that time the

41:52

Jews and had the law and knew that Jesus Yeshua was the Messiah That had come but also those who are not under the law.

42:00

So there's two different cases There's the Gentiles the non -jews and they say they have they've been there alone to themselves, right?

42:10

So you're talking like for example, you were talking right now, even if you had never heard of The gospel if you haven't part of the

42:16

LDS Church, you mentioned you're appealing a certain ethics about that's wrong to steal The wrong to murder like we're in agreement with that and one of the reasons why is that the

42:27

Bible said you're made in the image of God you have a conscience which means calling science with knowledge and So the people they have the non people who don't have the gospel or haven't heard the good news

42:39

They still are a law unto themselves. They have have God's law written on their hearts, but they don't they still don't do those things

42:47

They know that it's inherently wrong to steal but they steal they know it's inherently wrong to covet

42:52

But they cut even the unreached people group on the eye on a random island in Papua New Guinea They kill someone in their tribe

43:00

They know it's wrong. They know it's yeah, it's all been demonstrated when people come in and they talk with them

43:06

They weep for those who are dead and murdered why? They've never seen any of what we're talking about because as we said

43:13

God has written on their heart. Sorry Yeah, so so in a sense everyone and that's why there's a there should be an urgency

43:19

A lot of Christians don't have that urgency to go out to share the gospel and that's why we share it

43:25

That's why that's why we could be anywhere. We could be just chilling at home But you know, we come out here consistently

43:30

You know looking to share the good news with people to let them know that there is a God in the same way

43:36

And there's people who go out all over the world all over the world to do that And that's why there's an urgency for that So in some sense, that's that's what the

43:44

Bible says about it that his you know But there is an aspect where you know, it also says that God is not far from each one of us that he has appointed

43:52

It's actually one of my favorite. I actually had it up here It's it.

43:59

These are tough questions They're good questions If you read

44:07

Romans 1 and it shares the the gospel Romans 1 16 Which is a verse that everybody quotes it says for the good news of the gospel the power of God into salvation for those who believe

44:21

But it's you first and also to the Greek but right after that and then it says

44:27

The wrath of God has been revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness Of men who suppress the truth of God in their unrighteousness

44:37

So we suppress God's truth because we love our sin Innately give her the beach ball

44:44

So we're where so the suppression of it is like God's truth is known But we're trying to hold it down because we love our sin, but it says that God has revealed his

44:56

Invisible attributes namely his eternal power and divine nature in the things in creation have been made in creation

45:03

Just like when you would look up we all know God Right because he has revealed himself in creation But we suppress the truth of God because we love doing what we want to do

45:12

So it's like I'm gonna suppress the truth of God, which I know Because I love my sin, but we do it naturally right because we're born into sin

45:22

I naturally want to suppress that truth But we're all held accountable because like my brother said the laws written on a heart were with knowledge

45:30

But also by the revelation of the creation right the divine nature of God is all around us

45:37

And that's why you I don't need to tell you there's a God you're like, I know there's a God Look at the things around us the amazing like, you know, there's a

45:45

God just as we all do But the Bible says that we suppress that truth

45:50

And just to tag along that and then what we end up doing is we end up creating our own

45:56

God Yeah, think about it. We create a God where we say Well, you know all religions are inclusive

46:03

This is the God that we find most just but we are fallen people from Adam. So we cannot clearly

46:10

We cannot clearly know exactly what is right from wrong without God's revealed truth

46:15

Our hearts have been darkened in Ephesians chapter 2 It says that we're all children of wrath because we inherit sin from our father

46:22

Adam So we're all born condemned. That's the bad news, right?

46:28

But what we're here doing is preaching the good news, which is although we are born condemned dead in our sin and trespasses

46:34

We can be made alive through Jesus Christ Who is God who died on the cross for our sins so that we can believe on him in faith?

46:42

We can be adopted as sons of God into his family through only the blood of Christ Not our own righteous rags because if you're in world religions class

46:49

You can look at any world religion out there Every single other religion other than Christianity says you need to do X Y and Z need to keep this up and that up It's all workspace salvation.

46:59

Even the LDS Every single one even the LDS being obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles into the words of wisdom being sealed in the temple doing all of these things in order to Justify you before God, but guess what that means.

47:12

It says no G. No Jesus. I don't want you God I don't want your son. I can do it on my own. I can be righteous enough when

47:19

I stand before you I'm gonna give you my righteousness, but the Bible clearly demonstrates in the book of Isaiah It says our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before God Why because we won't when we try to offer our righteousness.

47:30

We're rejecting the sacrifice of his son Think of think of it like this think of like right here

47:36

You have the work of Christ on the cross giving up his life. Here it is and Then other religions or even

47:44

LDS they try to say, okay I see what Jesus did and they and they do it

47:50

Paul was accusing the Galatians of In the Church of Galatia There was

47:56

Judaizers that came is what they're called and they were trying to All they were trying to do is take what

48:02

Jesus did. This is perfect sacrifice All they were trying to do was add on top of that circumcision.

48:08

Okay, it's all that Jesus did sure sure sure But you also have to get circumcised.

48:13

Otherwise, you're not saved So what we're trying to demonstrate what my brother's trying to demonstrate as well is it's only this it's not

48:21

This and then the Word of Wisdom being sealed in the temple, you know doing temple endowments going on mission

48:29

Being looking perfect to your neighbors in Utah, you know all these pressures, right?

48:35

We're saying that it's a free gift. That's that's all it is. It's a free gift And it's only his work.

48:43

It's only Jesus work. You're awesome for sitting here. Listen to us, by the way I really appreciate it. I love stuff like this.

48:49

I was accidentally almost joined a cult one time. It was actually very funny. It was a while ago

48:57

So if you're into cults, there's a podcast that him and I actually do together called cultish.

49:03

Oh, yeah, you got to check that out Yeah, I love podcasts. Yeah, I'm actually just um Have you ever heard of like Mormon stories podcasts?

49:09

Yeah, yeah, like I a family that was in my parents war just did this like three part like eight hour long

49:17

Oh Pull pull out your phone real quick pull up the podcast app. Do you have like it? You can go to whatever your podcast catcher is go to it it's on there

49:28

We talked with Warren Jeff's 65th wife

49:38

Yeah Yeah, that's us Oh my gosh,

49:43

I might love this actually I hope so So we want you to know the truth listen to the first episode with Jim Jones.

49:51

You ever know Yeah, Jim Jones in the Kool -Aid. I mean the episode is so eerie and it's

49:57

Crazy like back in October 2018. So about two and a half years in So we've got good following.

50:03

Oh, yeah, we got even in the top like 100s in the religion spirituality There's a couple times where he outranked Joel Steen and stuff like that Sometimes he won't even let me stand near him.

50:12

He's No, no, no, no

50:18

But one of the things that's different too is that you know A lot of people and sometimes if I'm honest like the

50:24

Mormon stories podcasts, it's kind of depressing because it's not It's a misery loves company and it's hard and one of my motivations for even doing cold dishes that I watch shows like Scientology the aftermath

50:36

Or just a couple of their Netflix documentaries where people just kind of get spit out the other end and they're just completely lost and broken and and like and I would and I would like I said a

50:48

While back of the existence of the counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original and there's lots of people though I've known who are don't hold it who are

50:59

Yeah, we're sorry. Yeah who are cultists who? Left but they found hope in Christ like that's right

51:06

Oh Christ and the hope of the gospel and that's like those are good stories and I almost want to like make it as a

51:13

It was sort of a motivation to show people that you know We have a lot of people that you know We're in a cult but they came out and they actually fell in the crisis scripture now

51:21

They have a life versus a lot of people just sort of leave and now they're kind of like well I can just think for myself, you know, but Well, it's like well an open

51:30

GK Chesterton is one of my favorite Christian philosophers said that an open mouth is no different than an open mind eventually has to bite down on something and if our minds are so So our minds are so susceptible and you look at group things and undo influence like you have there has to be an objective standard

51:48

Outside of ourselves where you can actually you can give an accounting for why that was wrong. Like a lot of those people They know inherently that it was wrong to be abused that way or be disfellowshipped or to be abandoned in that way or to or so there are people who are

52:03

You know being sexually assaulted and somehow, you know It's somehow the person is trying to use

52:09

God as a club in order to enact that like they know inherently That's wrong.

52:14

But and that is wrong that happened because they're made in the image of God they have value But they can't give an ultimate accounting for it.

52:20

There isn't an ultimate point of reference. So One thing I just want to share with you and this is one of my favorite

52:27

Sections of the Bible And it may be relevant to especially since being in the LDS Church for a while so in Acts 17

52:36

Paul is in Athens Greece and He's just like overwhelmed because the whole the whole place is just full of items, right?

52:44

They're just over He's just overwhelmed by it and he goes to that the

52:49

Areopagus and he talks about And he kind of uses this as a catalyst to share the gospel of them

52:55

He says I men of Athens. I see you are a very religious people Because I even saw you had a statue called to the unknown

53:03

God to this unknown God I proclaim to you not saying the statue was God.

53:08

It's just that's where the metaphor that he used as a catalyst to share the gospel There's a highlighted one, yeah

53:20

Yeah, sure In it

53:50

Yeah Yeah, so I like that because obviously it says he's not

53:59

He's not he doesn't live in intent. He's not really does not reside in temple more served by human hand.

54:04

There's kind of refutes The whole idea of temples to begin with as he's Christ is our mediator But I love the fact that he talks about how he's appointed every single person that everyone

54:14

Could reach out for him that God is not part of each one of us my ideas and we've got somewhere far off Or narcissism where God is there's some sort of big esoteric hidden knowledge.

54:24

You can't really know The beauty of the Christian gospel is that the Christian God he's not far from each one of us

54:31

Yeah, he's not far from you Here So, yeah, you know, like I said

54:43

Take it to account that verse and just being being appointed No, God's appointed your time to where God's on the earth from each one of us, you know

54:51

We might you might take our track. You might we may never see you again but I think given what scripture says that I don't think it was an accident that You've spent you took the time you could be anywhere and you know, it could have been

55:04

You know, this could have been if I've been a conversation this end up being a bit longer Even you say everything happens for a reason.

55:12

Yeah, we yeah, we actually do a counseling thing where the three of us will sit down with people of who've come out of different faiths and like We help people unwind the yo -yo like that's all listed up.

55:25

So like this again, I'm pastor Contact Like so if you ever want to message us and you just have more of these type of questions

55:37

This is what we do and it won't be our opinion we'll point you to the to the

55:43

Word of God and say this is what it says because God is real and he has spoken and so who that carries weight, right?

55:50

So so anyways, if you ever want to meet up and just we'll get coffee

55:56

You know in whatever place of your choosing we'll sit down we'll do more of these questions too.

56:02

We're here for you I I really have a heart for you Just you know seeing what you're saying and and your love for you know, what you do with schooling and stuff

56:11

I really appreciate you. So quick question. Do you have a Bible that's not connected to a quad? Okay, I have

56:18

I literally I was going from my house tonight and I said I'm going to bring a Bible I can give

56:23

So give me one second because I really think it would be often for you To read john chapter the book of john and read the book of romans

56:31

Just take take your time and read those Policy our pastor

56:51

Jeff Durbin. Oh, come on Okay, all right, all right, all right

57:14

Actually, yeah we could just Show you he does some cool stuff on uh

57:19

Our pastor has done stuff with you know with eight like it, you know talking with atheists having a dialogue with them

57:26

Uh, let me show you our channel real quick apology studios um

57:32

And so yeah, if you go here and I don't know you can type in apollo even just apologia mormon and so There's crazy stuff a lot of like mormon converts

57:46

Oh, yeah at our church. Oh, yeah, jehovah witnesses. They spoke with this man I don't know if you ever heard of him.

57:52

Yeah I hate so much fun fact because i've been probably

57:59

I went on a few dates with him awful. No way I hate him so much. Oh, I hate him so much.

58:04

Well, we want him to know we want him to know Was he like trying to contest it? Was that hell? Yeah, he was arguing with our two pastors.

58:10

There's jeff and james So there's all these things of that's funny. I'm talking with uh

58:15

Pastor jeff with the beer talking with mormon. I've never been out with a man who could talk about himself for that long

58:20

Really? I couldn't get one word Yeah, we even have uh our open house for our churches tomorrow night at 7 p .m

58:38

I worked in south jordan. Oh, that's fine No worries. I don't have a car. Oh, okay I mean you've got you've got a bible

58:46

Right. You've got a bible. You've got that tracked. You know how to reach out to us, right? You message me and i'll get you in touch with them to check out their podcast as well

58:54

The first one with jim jones is crazy. Yeah, just all of it is really good Just be aware that that first episode is the actual death tape at jones town

59:02

So there's real audio of people drinking the kool -aid and dying. So I know yeah, no i've like I i'm a queer

59:08

I hate to say i'm not curious. So I deep dive into that but um, yeah, we have well Like cult stuff like I hate cults.

59:16

Yeah, I know what you mean, but like you have a cold podcast Yeah leader. Yeah, one of my best friends when

59:21

I was like in high school Like he ended up getting tested sociopath like absolute sociopath could have let a cult if he wanted to That was a crazy experience.

59:32

Wow two years and the car like and he went to school. He went to byu with me Well, we were friends before we went to byu together.

59:38

Yeah, and I confronted him. I was like I feel like you don't care about me he's like yeah, I never did and Love you

59:45

Wow There's some guys who have like no empathy People will hurt people and they'll and they'll like have no

59:52

Reality or concept of like the hurt that they've caused they need jesus. That's always weird. Yeah Oh, you went on a tour mission, too.

59:58

Wow. Yeah, I don't doubt that. But yeah, we're praying for you. Rebecca yeah, we just want you to know the true christ and um, you know one day even maybe

01:00:07

Come to one of our churches and visit sometimes so I know you have a lot of people This whole town is full of people going believe what we're saying.

01:00:15

Well, I'm leaving here in a month. So So anyways, yeah, i'll be away from this. Oh, okay. Well, we also met you chris

01:00:22

We have we have an episode two on astrology for a lady who's on astrology. It's like a two -part series

01:00:27

Yeah, check that out, too Well, here's my thing about astrology is I don't believe it inherently that it's true, but I just think it's so fun

01:00:32

Right. I think it's so like a cultural thing. Yeah, I think it's so funny like like when people say like oh This is a high tease and i'm like, yeah, my mom's exactly like that We might enjoy that we've done we've done all sorts of stuff we've talked about, you know

01:00:44

Some of the friends that we mess up with like ufos Psychedelics, you know people who get into like the dmt and astral projection.

01:00:51

This is dreaming like new age stuff Anything that's like fringe we want to be able to you know, take it on and from a biblical worldview from god's words

01:01:03

Can I actually ask one more question yeah, can I just get a short video with you guys I do this thing where like I do a video every day just like explaining what happened today.