Conversation with an EX-LDS

Got this for you.

Here you go.

Oh, I've got this for you right here.

Yeah, it's a gospel for LDS track.

Are you LDS?

You were.

Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

Well, it was very recent very sudden, okay.

Okay, it's gonna be why you and went to New York.

Explained to people what it was like to go to BYU and they're all like that's crazy, right?

You know what?

Yeah, it is.

Then I looked into it was a bunch of shit.

So right, so I'm here just to tie up loose ends and get my like transcripts done.

I'm gonna go back to the city.

Was there anything particular that was like this trial that broke the camel's so I kind of knew like for a couple

years.

Low -key that likes things weren't doing what it needed to be doing.

Yeah, I don't like that.

People are told that they need to pay 10 % of their income and.

Even college students.

Oh anyone.

Oh, wow.

Okay, but also it's like The church is a billion -dollar organization.

Why do you need people's money?

And then you tell them like you have to pay 10 % you'll get blessings even if you're like.

Like that's rude and then they hate gay people so that's like annoying and then.

Yeah.

How did you become LDS.

Born into it, oh.

So Wow in from New York.

Just trying to figure that out.

My parents.

My dad was Jewish and he joined the Mormon Church.

He was 25.

What in the world?

He's still in it.

Yeah, and he loves it but like not in like a crazy way.

It's like a he's like.

He's progressive.

Yeah, he's very cultural.

We have a lot of we have a lot of religious background a lot of other religions.

My mom was Catholic.

She joined the church.

She was 19.

Found out that they didn't like black people.

So she left.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Yeah, and then came back and then met my dad.

They got married.

They had three kids.

Here I am.

You know you you went into it and you thought about like they taught you all of these things.

And then like did you feel betrayed or was it?

Yeah.

Well, it was it was it was odd my older sister She left the church before I did.

Okay.

And we kind of just like okay best friend go crazy love you.

But like me my older sister and her husband were all like kind of like out.

My older sister Sarah.

She wants to be away for five years as well.

The week She graduated was the week.

She got married and it was the week.

She went to records.

Yeah big week for her.

Yeah, I haven't been my records yet.

My parents don't think I'm very active.

But all of my family all my dad's family.

They don't give a shit because they're all Jewish.

They couldn't care less, right?

My dad left Judaism be Mormon.

They weren't very proud of him.

They were right.

We're all friends now, so that's good.

So yeah, would that make you them?

What's your by the way?

I'm Rebecca Rebecca Jeremiah Andrew.

Right now like I know the majority of people who leave Mormons They typically end up like atheists or agnostic and whatnot.

Like would you have an idea of what category you don't you still get that you're trying to figure things out?

So the reason I was very very into because I was very very church.

Yeah, the reason I was super into it was also the reason I have my major so I'm an astrophysics major.

Oh, wow physics and astronomy and all that stuff and.

The reason I loved it so much because I believe like I don't know people say like Oh science religion don't mix.

I'm the kind of person that's like science can't exist without religion.

Oh, no, you're 110 percent, right?

I'm very but I'm also very good at making it literal and saying like.

But so I'm very into the idea that like science was created by a creator.

Yeah, but it makes sense in a way that we can remove that aspect as well for people who don't believe if that makes sense.

Yeah so because I don't think that everyone should believe a certain type of doctrine in

any way only because.

Like other people are different people come from different cultures.

We can't tell people they've lived wrong because they never learned I guess.

Or they never got the opportunity to learn but my big thing about like being a physicist or as a physicist.

Was like if I know how great space is how incredible it is, but I can't see it from

here.

We can't see it from here it's put there because God knew that we were going to be so progressive and

work together and Create the technology necessary to search out and find those things.

Hundreds of years ago and we've adapted all of these new things to create Technology so we can see outer space all the time

in many different ways.

We're discovering new things every day.

Yeah.

If we weren't meant to discover that we wouldn't right.

If we weren't meant to see it, it wouldn't be that pretty either.

Yeah, so I think it's that kind of thing.

It's like we work together and we finally found it and God was like, well, that's my gift to you.

Look how good y 'all did this is great and you get to see it if you didn't work so hard.

You wouldn't be able to see it and that's kind of like my philosophy for life.

Like if it wasn't meant to happen, it wouldn't be as great.

So like about life just anything hard decisions making hard decisions doing hard things challenging things.

Hard for you to like do emotionally once you do them your life is so much better I mean, it's

like God saying like look at you did it.

Do you believe.

So.

You believe in science and astrophysics?

I'm guessing you believe in absolutes.

Like there's truth.

Oh, there's truth in everything.

I totally believe that there's truth everywhere, but it's also.

So you believe in a God right?

Absolutely.

Do you think that this God would then create an absolute truth?

Like this is true.

This is false.

Here's the thing.

I think God knows what's going on.

I think he put people on earth to figure out what was going on.

I do not believe anybody knows exactly what's going on and I see revealed himself.

Do you have but would you have like that belief though?

And do you would you have perfect knowledge.

Perfect knowledge to be a hundred certain a hundred percent certain that knowledge claim that we can't perfectly know that.

Who's to say like why.

Like it's like I feel like I'm not the kind of person to say.

Anybody's right or wrong unless you're doing something bad.

Someone's doing something bad.

You're wrong.

How would you determine if something was bad though?

Oh like crime?

Like so, but how would you determine that that if that was bad?

Morally you'd like your feelings.

Yes for sure.

Where do you think those morals come from though?

Like do you think like so you're saying you said you believe like crime is wrong murder is wrong.

And I would absolutely agree.

But I would agree because there's a standard that says that something is absolutely wrong.

Right apart from that I have you have your opinion I have mine and what if I say

Prove me wrong.

Rightfully right.

Right.

Yeah, but the word of God the Bible says that God put this law on your heart that you know, right?

Innate right.

So but it also says you have this word to go to and test that like what is this right or wrong?

Well, God says thou shalt not murder.

I have that I didn't have that.

You just I said what's wrong and you're like murder is wrong.

Like I didn't need to show you that because God put his law in your heart.

That's what I believe.

That's what the scripture says that God wrote his law in our heart that we all know right from long.

We have a conscience and our conscience will bear witness either against us or for us the Bible says

On the day of judgment even read this before Romans 2.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, well even to just real quickly is that you know when you said initially you wrote Mormon.

You found out that it was BS and then you know, but there's other people that you know, probably me

I'm assuming probably still have classmates that still believe in it.

They have their their testimony and for them.

It's true.

So like what?

What would be the standard like a guideline and I think you'd use for to say that?

You know, this is this is actually BS and for them it's and then like they're deceived or they're wrong.

Like what's what's your guiding light?

I don't believe it.

I can't say that they're wrong.

Based on their own perspective how they've lived life.

You know like the things because you think about so it's not fully untrue.

It's just untrue just for you.

Exactly.

It's like I I think in my personal opinion.

Everyone's own personal relationship with God is their own person.

My personal my relationship with God is not like any of yours.

Your relationship with God's unlike anything like mine.

I think it's better to go off the faith that you have in your God and in the God that you believe in and.

How you feel like he?

Shows himself in your life and what he shows you to do and how he shows you how to live.

It's different to me than this anybody else.

Yeah, if people want to believe in Mormonism cool go crazy.

If you want to be in Catholicism go crazy.

That is both crazy.

Have so much fun.

If you are inherently a good person and you're doing it for the right reasons.

Like so because you know in your heart that it's good and it's like solid and you know.

You're not doing anything like messed up or illegal like yeah I don't have so much fun and there is always that kind of

thing where it's like Oh, there is a truth out there.

Go get it.

Go find it.

Yeah, if you Feel or if you feel like your relationship with God and you feel like everything you're doing is

right.

I feel like everyone's good and at the end of the day, you know.

We've all been told what we like what we think happens after we die.

We don't know.

That's where faith comes in same thing how I said about like how man's interpretation of words of God

Is different from anyone else's.

The Bible has been translated multiple multiple times.

So is the Book of Mormon?

Things have been shifted man has gotten in the way and things change if you feel in your soul that something is

true and something's.

Right, and that's your truth.

So people you don't you would only believe that though to me.

You don't you wouldn't believe that fully and holistically because there's a lot of people who believe in their heart That it's okay to

go ahead and be a child.

There's plenty of people who are child molesters, for example.

They feel totally when they're right.

Is that their truth?

I like my who's but crime by everyone has.

No everyone has their own truth.

It sounds like.

Why are we making it like that?

Okay, let me let me say it this way then like there's some sects in

Islam that say it's righteous and good to murder the infidel to kill.

Certain types of people.

Yeah, like the Taliban in Afghanistan right now.

They say it's righteous to purge the land of these evil people to murder them.

They say God for them God.

They think that that's their truth and that they have found it out of a book from Mohammed in the Quran and.

So what makes you know certain truths?

Okay, and some truths not I guess.

Okay.

Okay, like cuz like prophets and stuff like those are men those are people who are saying they speak for God, okay.

We can't trust them if they do or don't okay.

That's why I like my big problem Mormon Church.

Yeah, like how to how am I supposed to trust that they speak for God to me and I suppose listen to them.

That's just okay.

So at some point at some point.

Maybe morally or ethically.

Someone's truth can be an error.

It sounds like yeah, so you could believe something.

Okay.

Someone could be wrong.

The way to the end of the world and how we're all gonna get there and I'm gonna.

Get married have a hundred kids and call it a night and you know.

Okay, and when I wanted to be a physicist everyone hated me.

So I watch want to be a mom like I don't want to be.

Untrue the way that you should be okay this way.

And I'm like, okay.

Okay, so it's not true for you.

But again, so I guess what I'm trying to figure out with you.

I'm sorry.

What's your name again?

Rebecca, I'm Wade.

I'm a pastor up in Salt Lake Valley.

So We have truth right and Truth claims are like like like

this brother was getting at absolutes, you know.

And we can take things like mathematics Two plus two equals four and we can say that's an absolute claim.

Like that's a that's a truth claim.

So when we take that even with morals and stuff what we're trying to tell you is thou shall not murder is as

fact and Absolute as two plus two equals four and it's not five.

So that that truth of you shall not murder is higher and transcendent

above you know people's interpretations of Different truths or

religions or ancient, you know books or anything like that.

So basically, what I'm getting at is It can't just be subjective or

individualistic.

There's got to be truth that is transcendent an objective which means it's solid.

It doesn't change.

This is true.

And so we're going where does that come from?

And we're we're contending that it's from God's Word from from the Christian God

In the Holy Bible that he has established it and and it's not even just in his word.

He is that way so God is just perfectly just so when he does something.

It is just when when when he does something he is good.

And so therefore what he does is good because he is good it manifests out of his attributes.

So so that's what we're getting at is is that?

Okay, so Islam Judaism Mormonism Jehovah's Witness evangelical

Christians Catholics Hindus, you know Buddhists they all say they have

truth.

But when we look at it like okay, but no like I said, there's an objective Transcendent solid

rock truth like two plus two equals four Truth out there.

How can they all say they possess it?

Which would if they all possess truth and because therefore they all contradict each other then they're all

not true.

Then that's a god of confusion.

So so so which one then we have to then go around and go which one is actually true.

Is what I'm is what I'm trying to get at.

So is it Mormonism this is that and so again our contention and our

Loving, you know admonishment to people out here is that there there is truth out there.

It's solid.

It's a firm foundation and it's in the and it's Jesus Christ.

He says I am the way the truth and the life.

He says he is truth.

He's truth embodied.

Actually in John 1 it says he is the log ops in the Greek.

He is the log offs.

He is the word which is where we get all the ologies right in science and stuff like that Jesus is

I am the log offs.

I am the word made flesh.

He he is He is perfection and wisdom and truth and so we look to

Jesus we look to his word we look to God.

For that.

So anyways, what are your thoughts about some of that?

I guess Is this a church

we we're a church we're a church Christian Church, yeah.

We're apology a church apology that comes from the Greek word apologia which means like defense

for the faith.

You know, yeah.

Yeah, and so the thing is to we won't be appealing to like say don't take our word for it.

We would always appeal to a standard.

It's not our truth in the sense that we would say this is our personal experience.

This is what we feel we're saying.

This is revelatory.

This is a standard above ourselves.

We can fail you.

Yeah, the problem.

Yeah, I'm a fallible man.

Yeah, you know.

But yeah, we're trying to tell you something that won't fail you.

Yeah, so I sorry.

I actually I thought it was really cool though.

I really admire me as soon as you start talking about astrophysics.

You just got excited, you know.

Yeah.

What was the first time the first thing you ever saw that made you want to be an astrophysicist.

Oh, I mean, I've loved ever since I was a kid.

I was I grew up homeschooled.

Oh you were homeschooled too?

Yeah.

Are you from here?

I'm originally from Mesa, Arizona.

Okay, where y 'all from?

Originally from California.

All from Arizona.

We're planting a church out.

We just moved out here to plant a church.

We're all from Arizona, yeah.

Yeah, so.

Okay, so just during that time.

It was just that.

Why there's that wonder of like what is out?

Yeah, my parents let us all pick what we wanted to learn.

Yeah.

And so we kind of they kind of gave us a bunch of options and they're like what works for you and like what do You want to do by the age of four?

I was like only looking at like National Geographic about space.

Yeah, like we have like super cool.

Just me like looking at maps of like like different planets and what they mean and what they do.

So I was super interested into it.

Then math came really easily to me and physics came really easily to me.

I actually loved it so I Did that time I got an internship at NASA.

And I did that a couple years ago.

I got a full scholarship full ride at BYU.

Because they needed their diversity to go up.

So I showed up.

I brought up a fun fact BYU is so not diverse.

I brought up the whole school.

I brought it up by 3 %.

In their women in STEM.

One person for their women in STEM.

This is whitey white central.

And they were like oh a half Jewish half Jamaican.

Girl from New York They're gonna bring our score up 3 %.

They want to go into science?

Girl get in here I know.

My wife is Hispanic so You said a few things that really resonated with me.

Earlier which I am in 110 % agreement.

We are as well in terms of modern day prophets.

We would also agree according to the bible.

It says in Hebrews 1 Long ago and many times in many ways God spoke to our fathers through the prophets.

But in these last days he has spoken to us through his son.

Right?

And what's interesting to me is You can understand in the terms of.

They're being mere human beings.

And the sad thing about The LDS religion and I'm gonna talk to you In the terms of trying to think back To when

you were.

They want to make you think that the bible Is missing many plain and precious parts.

There's arguments where they say that the bible Has been translated so many times.

It went from Latin to English From English to Spanish and all these things.

Regardless of that because we can get into that a little bit later If you want to but there's actually Two tests of a prophet in the bible.

And they won't tell you that in the LDS organization.

There's Deuteronomy 13 and 18.

Deuteronomy 13 says If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you And produces miracles, signs, and wonders.

But leads you after other gods, gods which you have not known.

Do not believe them.

Right?

So there's one standard and then Deuteronomy 18 says If there's one false prophecy From someone who claims to

speak in the name Of God False prophet, don't believe them, God's law then says Put them to death.

That's how serious God takes it.

Because God loves us so much That he's not a god of confusion.

That he has revealed himself to us in scripture.

So we can know and believe and understand Who he is.

Right?

So in terms of who Jesus is I want to present you with the Jesus Of scripture not the Jesus of the

LDS faith.

Okay?

So just listen for a minute.

The Jesus of the LDS faith is this.

He's the spiritual offspring Of Elohim and one of his wives.

And Lucifer is his spirit brother.

Right?

The Jesus of scripture is this.

In John 1 it says in the beginning was the word.

And the word was with God and the word was God.

All things were created through him.

There was nothing that came into being Unless it was created through him.

You can cross check me in scripture.

And in Colossians 1, 15 or 16 It says that Jesus Christ created all things On heaven

and on earth.

Visible and invisible.

So the Jesus of the Bible actually created Lucifer.

Right?

So I'm presenting you with this today That according to scripture That Joseph Smith fails that test of a prophet.

Which you would agree, you don't think he was a true prophet.

That's why you reject the religion.

But what I'm trying to say is that They led you after a God that wasn't real.

A God that was never there in the first place.

The true Jesus as Pastor Wade was saying.

He says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

No one comes to the Father except through me.

So in that claim from Jesus He's saying this, he says Buddha can't get you to God, right?

Muhammad can't get you to God.

No other religion except Jesus Christ.

And this is why.

It's because if you read Romans 4 -6 It says that we're not sons of God in this pre -existence From

Elohim, right?

It says we're actually offspring of Adam and Eve.

In Isaiah 45 It says that God created the earth.

And then he formed man on it.

And breathed within us the breath of life From God, so we're created in the image of God.

Which means that we want to know who God is.

We want to search for truth.

We want to apprehend it, right?

But in the beginning With Adam and Eve, Adam sinned In the garden, right?

Eve sinned.

God created the tree, the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

You've heard the story.

And God says, you can eat of anything you want In the garden, but don't eat From that fruit of which I have commanded you.

And then Satan appears as the serpent.

And he says to Eve, did God really say that?

And guess what, you can become Just like God, that's why God doesn't want you to eat that fruit.

And in that moment When Eve eats that fruit, takes it to her husband.

Their eyes are opened, there's eternal separation from God.

Because what Pastor Wade was saying earlier Is that God is perfect.

He's holy, holy, holy, thrice holy.

That means the one wrong thing Separates us from him for all eternity, right?

Have you ever lied?

Oh, definitely.

Me too.

According to God's standards He would say that you're a liar.

And if you stood before him, you're worthy Of going to hell for all eternity.

Why?

Because he's just, he will punish wrong.

Okay?

But the beautiful thing about Jesus is this.

God always had a plan of redemption.

It's for his glory and his glory alone.

He says there will be a people that will fall.

But I'm going to send my son.

He will be perfectly righteous and obedient to the law.

Flawless.

That's Jesus.

He comes and takes on flesh.

And he dies on the cross.

The death that we deserve, right?

He takes our sin, it's imputed to him.

And then he gives us his righteousness in exchange.

He says there's nothing you can do To make yourself good before God.

No, I did it for you.

It's a gift.

Salvation is a gift.

So when Jesus died on the cross He satisfied the wrath of God For his people.

In John 6 it says that no one can come to the Father.

No one will come to the Father Unless they're drawn to Jesus By the Father.

No one will come to him unless the Father who sent him Will draw him.

That's the verse in John chapter 6.

So the call that we have for you Today is that you can actually have certainty In who God is, right?

There's every world religion Regardless of the spirit of the age that we live in.

With this whole let's be inclusive Of all different religions.

All of them claim exclusivity.

If you talk to a true Hindu they'll look at the spirit of the age Of the people who walk around modern America.

And they say you don't know what you're talking about.

That's not true.

They wouldn't agree with Jesus.

So the beautiful thing is this.

Is that the true Jesus of Scripture.

The Jesus of Nazareth who lived.

There's still an empty tomb.

He died the death that we deserve.

He rose from the dead conquering death.

And now he sits at the right hand of God Ruling and reigning now.

And all we need to do is put our trust in him.

So what if you came here today.

Right?

You have left the LDS religion.

You've left the faith.

And God has appointed to you people Who would actually come and share with you Who the true Jesus of Scripture is, right?

I can't change your heart.

Only God can change your heart.

But the call of the gospel Is to repent of our sins.

I'm a wicked sinner, trust me.

I'm not perfect.

The Bible says Anyone who says that they are without sin.

The truth is not in them.

Even when I'm saved, I still make mistakes, right?

But it's not my righteousness That gets me justified before God.

Looking perfect all the time.

It's only Jesus' righteousness.

That's the beautiful thing about it.

It's a gift, gift from God.

So my righteousness is bound up in Christ.

And today you can have salvation.

So when you die, you can worship God in spirit and truth.

The God that's in the heavens.

That you marvel at.

Is the God that is calling you To believe in his son.

And that's what we're saying today.

And what I was going with you Was saying earlier, Rebecca When I brought up

astrophysics And just the The wonder that you have about it

Is that it reminds me too Of one time I saw Lawrence Krauss And he was on the Joe Rogan Experience.

And he was talking too about First he tried to dog religion.

And obviously you know where he stands As being an atheist.

But as he progressed in the podcast He just got so Like just

awestruck Or just wide -eyed wonder About the complexity of the universe.

And in that moment It's almost as if he was worshipping He was giving praise

to the creation That the Bible says that all of us We praise the creature

Rather than the creator.

Romans chapter 1.

So it's what separates us from God.

So in many ways Our sin separates us from God.

But ultimately The beauty of the true gospel.

Like you said, you were dealing with a counterfeit.

And there's someone I really admire Named Walter Martin.

That said the existence of a counterfeit Predicates the authenticity of original.

So the reason why there's counterfeit currency out there Is because there's legit currency.

And you have to know how to differentiate Between the two And the legitimate The authentic

Jesus Christ is the one who created All things.

All things were made by him and for him Including all the complexities Of astrophysics All

the smartest minds Way smarter than you Or I or anyone else.

In a moment he said let there be.

And there was That's the God that I believe that the Bible says

That God's put eternity in the hearts of men.

And that we are created to Have a relationship with the Triune God Who is the creator of all these things.

So I think In a sense That's what you were created for.

It's just our sin that separates us from God.

And I would say Don't take our word for it.

Take a Bible.

Go to the gospel of John.

Just read it for what it is Not through the lens of The LDS

church.

Fresh eyes.

Yeah just fresh eyes.

Read it for what it is And just read it about it.

And ask God if this is real And ask him to reveal it to you.

That sounds like LDS.

You're asking her to get a burning in the bosom right now?

No not that.

The difference with them is it's a subjective experience.

There's no ultimate point of reference.

We're messing with them.

Yeah the Bible says Search the scriptures with a full heart.

So I would just say Look at that.

Especially in John 1 When it says all things were made by him Without him there was not anything that was made.

That verse is powerful.

And that's true.

That has legitimacy Every little aspect of science And

all the complexities Of the universe down to the complexity Of the human eye To how our DNA is constructed

To the cosmos And those things that people like Neil deGrasse Tyson They give praise to the

creation.

But they suppress the truth of the unrighteous.

They don't give the praise where it's due.

That's what we gotta be careful to When we say How we feel about certain things.

Because I'm gonna feel different than him.

He's gonna feel different than him.

Which is what you were talking about earlier.

But we would say that That's how we feel doesn't determine truth.

We must have a standard outside of us Which determines truth.

And only an all -knowing God Can determine truth.

And we believe and know That he has revealed himself In creation and the things around us

In his son Jesus Who he truly is He is God.

And in the holy scriptures that he has given us He wanted to reveal himself to us.

And he says that in Romans 1 That we all know him But we know of the one true

God.

But it says that For those that he calls He gives the right to adopt Into his family.

He adopts us.

We're not all merely children of God But he adopts us into his family.

And he does that by drawing us in Revealing himself to us And

revealing truth And giving us faith as a gift.

As my brother said It's a gift.

I'm not gonna get there.

My wise thinking, my feelings They're not gonna get there.

But it's God revealing himself Through his word Through his truth and through his spirit.

That gets us there.

He does it, I can't do it.

None of us here can do that.

What do you think about all that?

We just said a whole lot.

Solid to everyone, good work everyone.

I do.

They're good.

I do have a question In the way that you Believe

What we are here for.

How do you.

Believe That we got here?

Why do you think we are here?

It's a good question.

What do you think it started?

What's happening?

I'm gonna make it very simple.

We are here to give God glory To glorify him And to enjoy him

forever.

We're to enjoy all of this.

I'm enjoying this evening And I'm enjoying it because There is a God who made it such.

And so.

So you're saying why did it all happen?

In the Mormon church we believe there was a discussion.

And then it was like, oh Jesus you're gonna go down.

And then Satan was like, no I'll do it.

And then they got in a fight.

And then a couple, I don't know what else happened.

But then Anthony showed up and then we all showed up.

And how everyone already had a title.

Like a name in heaven.

And then we're all gonna go back up.

But I'm like, but then I'm also an astrophysicist.

So then I also have to take the big bang into account.

Yeah.

It's merely for his good pleasure Like he enjoyed.

So none of what you just said is in the Bible.

We don't see any of that.

All that we can see in Genesis And throughout the rest.

Cause it just starts In his good pleasure.

He decided to make, to create this.

And he made man in his own image So that we would glorify him That we would Just

marvel at the heavens.

It says, the heavens are telling Of the glory of God, that's what the psalm says The heavens are telling of the

glory of God.

Have you ever seen Like, you ever been somewhere camping And you've seen the Milky Way And it's just like

thick.

It's like the stars are, we can't tell right now But they're literally touching each other From earth when we look

up And we're in a place like that.

It's glorious, like we can look at that And marvel And glorify God in that I think.

And so But ultimately also His great desire was And has

always been, there was no plan B.

His plan A has always been To send Jesus Christ Into this world To rescue this world.

And a lot of what you're asking are big Big questions about, well then why did we fall.

And why do we sin.

And why is there brokenness in the world.

And we can definitely go through all that.

But The fact of the matter is It pleased God and it glorified Him

To make all this And to make us That we would enjoy Him and glorify Him And in all our actions.

So that even, get this.

So that even when The Taliban murders And pillages and

rapes And rapes women and children And holds them in slavery And ravages them for weeks on

end Until that woman finally dies.

That all that can happen.

And in our being We crave justice.

Right, so that when we If someone were to murder my wife If someone were to.

You know, again The Afghani's like, when I look at that I crave justice.

And to know that God is glorified.

And that in one day It may not happen now.

They may get away with it now But not for all eternity That God will have perfect justice.

You know, and I glorify God because of that.

You know, and I don't understand exactly Everything that happens.

And why He purposes it to be so.

But we have faith in what He's doing That He's benevolent, that He's good And um.

Yeah, like my brother said Like, a lot of what we're saying Could even sound LDS They

speak Christianese.

The problem is, we have similar words But different dictionaries.

They mean something totally different Often than what we're saying.

Right, so, anyways I don't know if that suffices.

I just have another question.

When it comes to, because this is something I've faced With a, because my family's half Jewish.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm based in like religion classes I went to like institute seminary.

Is that they believe that.

Anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is an anti -Christ.

Who says that?

Some of the kids I know.

Or like, people who have their religion But reject Christ as a messiah Is inherently evil And

insane, even if they do believe in God.

I don't believe that Parts of

the world are organized.

It's like how Asia doesn't really have a main religion.

And like, I don't know how a lot of The least is either like In Islam or they're

Jewish.

Yeah, yeah Christian.

Yeah, you'll probably honestly disagree with us.

But we believe, again, like for us.

We're scripture alone people.

But do you believe that like when we all die.

And we're like In that little like waiting period.

Of like where we're gonna go.

If there is a waiting period.

Well sure, so actually Hebrews 9 .27 says It is appointed for man and woman To

die once.

Then comes the judgment.

And so at that point, you know LDS Kind of have in a similar way Like a purgatory or the different

levels Of heaven, from our understanding Biblically, you will either Go to heaven

And await the resurrection Of our bodies, or you will Go to hell and await final

judgment.

Where it says in the revelation That people will be cast into the lake of fire.

So, but to answer your question previously.

And where you might Disagree with us and disagree with the Bible.

Possibly, and so Let me put this out there and see what you think.

So in Romans chapter 3 It says that no one seeks after God.

No one does good.

Not even one.

It says that all have sinned And fallen short of the glory of God.

That everyone In this world sins.

And it says in Genesis 6 that Man's thoughts are continually evil.

Always, and so You're going like, well that's nuts.

Can we all be that bad?

I know a lot of good people, you know.

Even these people walking by seem like pretty nice people.

But again, we are saying Or we're not.

What we're saying, what the Bible demonstrates.

Is that God is so perfectly holy That Anything that is contrary to His

attributes and His being Is an offense to Him, so You know, there's good Quote

unquote good people walking down the street.

But I'm sure A lot of them love pornography, they love to lie.

They love to maybe blaspheme God and take His name in vain.

And they take His name in vain in different ways.

I'm sure they don't worship Him perfectly.

None of us do.

That's the thing, none of us do.

Jesus says that if you look after Look at a man or woman and lust With your heart, you've committed adultery with them.

If you hate someone for a time.

You've committed murder.

You've committed murder in your heart with them.

And so we have this standard Up here.

And we can't attain it.

And that's what we're saying.

Is that God is so perfectly holy.

He must punish sinners.

And it's just kind of like back to the judge thing.

So it's okay.

So in this town, in Provo You have a guy that I'm going to bring back the rape and murder thing.

You have a guy that has taken some women.

And he's raped them.

And he's raped them and murdered them.

And now that man's been caught by the police.

And he's before the judge.

So they're in a court of law.

And there's the judge and there's the man.

And he's about to receive his sentencing.

But before he says The judge says, do you have any final words.

And he says, well yeah, I tried my best to be a good person.

Before I started doing this stuff And having these thoughts And doing these things I would give to

people on the side of the road.

I'd give them money.

I would take care of my grandma sometimes I would do these things that I thought were pretty good.

I went to school, I got an education Altogether I believe in God.

And the judge goes, you know what.

That sounds pretty good.

I'm going to let you go free.

Even though there's all these women That have been raped and murdered Traumatized, you name it.

And so there'd be public outcry, right.

Yeah.

Like all over the news and everything.

There'd be public outcry and they'd go.

That is a terrible judge.

That is a wicked judge.

He should be fired For him to say Because of a few things he did with his grandma.

And he thought good thoughts sometimes.

And he did this, he would be let go For what he did.

But the reality is the Bible shows that We're all like that man.

I've lusted and committed Adultery in my mind with women I've murdered people in my heart

According to the Bible.

And again, in the book of James It says if you fail in one part of the law If you did the whole law If you did

all the commandments and everything If you failed in one part He says you failed in it all.

Because God, it's almost hard to attain To even consider, to contemplate That God is so

perfectly holy and just It's just Nothing that is sinful Can come near

him.

So it says in Romans The wages of sin is death.

And so someone has to die.

Either we're going to die spiritually For all eternity.

Or Jesus Christ God in the flesh can die.

And he did, and he died.

So that's what we're saying.

So it is, like he was saying There's a lot of people saying Oh, religion, they're all inclusive.

No, they're all saying they're the way.

But the Bible makes it clear that It is the only way, through Christ is the only way.

But the free gift is for everyone.

So Again, I don't know what your thoughts are.

But yes, in the end If someone does not believe In the free gift of Jesus Christ

And his death Which took those sins.

So all that filthiness And all that disobedience I'm talking about That I commit Jesus on the cross

literally took all that wickedness My murderous thoughts My adulteries in my heart.

And he took those on himself on the cross.

It says in Isaiah 53 And it says that God In his perfect holiness He

poured out his wrath His anger, his holy righteous anger Upon Jesus as a

substitute.

So that if you, Rebecca If you believe On what Christ did on the cross That he died,

was buried And rose again Proving that he has conquered death and the grave.

If you believe on that And turn to him and repent from your sins And follow Christ.

And not that you're going to be perfect until you die.

Because you're not, that's the point.

That's the gospel.

If you believe on that That sacrifice is sufficient Because animals could never do

it.

In the ancient days There was animal sacrifices to atone for sin.

The blood and bulls of goats Could never do what Jesus Christ did His blood, because he is the son of God

Was what satisfied.

The wrath of God He's the perfect Passover lamb He's the perfect sacrifice.

So if you believe on him He will sacrifice himself for you.

He has True.

But what if on this earth you never got the opportunity To learn all that.

Great question.

So that's a good question.

Because if those sins are already atoned for.

And they never understood it.

Wouldn't they get that education when they die.

Let me make a quick thing.

We're saying the sins That he's atoned for Are the sins of his people.

So God doesn't send People to hell.

Whose sin he's paid for.

That wouldn't make sense, right.

Okay, so Jesus, you took my place.

Why am I going to hell.

No, that's not what the Bible says.

The Bible says that he died for his people.

The people who have turned By faith and repentance to him.

And that's what this brother was saying earlier.

Because, you know, a lot of LDS say We're all children of God.

We're children of God, every single one.

That's not what the Bible says.

We're all children of Adam.

But it says in John 1.

It says that by Jesus He gave us the right to be called Children of God, through Jesus.

To be adopted in as a son or daughter.

So that when you, Rebecca Believe on Christ, the true Christ.

Not the created one in the LDS church.

But the uncreated from all eternity Jesus Christ.

From eternity this way.

Into eternity that way.

If you believe on that Christ Then you have forgiveness of sins.

And you have been adopted in.

But if you haven't heard it.

Okay, okay.

So that's a good question.

So one of the things that The Bible has There's general revelation.

There's specific revelation.

So Psalm 19, for example Would be an example of general revelation.

Where it says that the heavens declared the glory of God.

The skies proclaimed their handiwork.

And so there's this general revelation That shows people explicitly.

There is a God that you must worship.

And so there's that.

But also in Romans 2 Paul gives a good example.

He makes the whole case.

The entire world is under sin.

Both at that time the Jews didn't have the law.

And knew that Jesus, Yeshua Was the Messiah that had come.

But also those who were not under the law.

So there's two different cases.

There's the Gentiles The non -Jews.

And they say They're a law unto themselves.

Like for example.

You were talking right now.

Even if you had never heard of the gospel.

If you hadn't been part of the LDS church.

You're appealing a certain ethics.

About that's wrong to steal.

That's wrong to murder.

We're in agreement with that.

And one of the reasons why.

Is that the Bible says you're made in the image of God.

You have a conscience.

Which means conscience with knowledge.

And so the people The non -people who don't have the gospel.

Or haven't heard the good news.

They still are a law unto themselves.

They have God's law Written on their heart.

But they still don't do those things.

They know that it's inherently wrong to steal.

But they steal.

They know it's inherently wrong to covet.

But they covet.

Even the unreached people group On Random Island in Papua New Guinea.

They kill someone in their tribe.

They know it's wrong.

It's all been demonstrated.

When people come in and they talk with them.

They weep for those who are dead and murdered.

Why?

They've never seen any of what we're talking about.

Because as we said God is written on their heart.

So in a sense everyone.

And that's why there should be an urgency.

A lot of Christians don't have that urgency To go out to share the gospel.

And that's why.

That's why we could be anywhere.

We could be just chilling at home.

But we come out here consistently Looking to share the good news With people to let them know that there is a

God In the same way.

And there's people who go out all over the world To do that and that's why there's an urgency for that.

So in some sense That's what the Bible says about it.

But there is an aspect Where it also says That God is not far from each one of us

That he has appointed.

It's actually one of my favorite.

I actually had it up here.

These are tough questions.

They honestly are.

They're good questions.

Romans 1 reveals that If you read Romans 1 And it shares the

gospel Romans 1 16 Which is a verse that everybody quotes.

It says For the good news of the gospel The power of God and to salvation For those who

believe For the Jew first and also to the Greek But right after that.

And then it says.

The wrath of God has been revealed from heaven Against all ungodliness and unrighteousness Of men

who suppress The truth of God In their unrighteousness.

So we suppress God's truth Because we love our sin innately.

Give her the beach ball.

So the suppression of it is like God's truth is known But we're trying to hold it down

Because we love our sin.

But it says that God Has revealed his invisible attributes Namely his eternal

power And divine nature In the things that have been made.

In creation So that we all know God.

Because he has revealed himself in creation.

But we suppress the truth of God.

Because we love doing what we want to do.

So it's like I'm going to suppress the truth of God.

Which I know because I love my sin.

But we do it naturally.

Because we're born into sin.

I naturally want to suppress that truth.

But we're all held accountable.

Because like my brother said The law is written on our heart We're with knowledge.

But also by the revelation of the creation.

The divine nature of God Is all around us.

And that's why I don't need to tell you there's a God.

You're like I know there's a God.

Look at the things around us.

The amazing.

You know there's a God just as we all do.

But the Bible says that.

We suppress that truth Because we love our sin.

And then what we end up doing.

Is we end up creating our own God.

Think about it.

We create a God where we say All religions are inclusive.

This is the God that we find most just.

But we are fallen people from Adam.

So we cannot clearly.

We cannot clearly know Exactly what is right from wrong.

Without God's revealed truth.

Our hearts have been darkened.

In Ephesians chapter 2 it says that We're all children of wrath.

Because we inherit sin from our father Adam.

So we're all born condemned.

That's the bad news.

But what we're here doing is preaching The good news.

Which is although we are born condemned Dead in our sin and trespasses We can be made alive through Jesus Christ

Who is God who died on the cross for our sins So that we can believe on him in faith.

And we can be adopted As sons of God into his family Through only the blood of Christ Not our own righteous

racks.

Because if you're in world religions class You can look at any world religion out there.

Every single other religion other than Christianity Says you need to do X, Y, and Z.

You need to keep this up and that up.

It's all workspace salvation.

Even the LDS organization.

Every single one.

Even the LDS being Obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles.

And to the words of wisdom being sealed in the temple.

Doing all of these things in order to justify you before God.

But guess what that means.

It says no Jesus.

I don't want you God.

I don't want your son.

I can do it on my own.

I can be righteous enough.

When I stand before you I'm going to give you my righteousness.

But the Bible clearly demonstrates in the book of Isaiah.

It says our righteousness is nothing but Filthy rags before God.

Why?

Because when we try to offer our righteousness We're rejecting the sacrifice of his son.

Think of it like this.

Think of like Right here you have the work Of Christ on the cross.

Giving up his life, here it is.

And then other religions.

Or even LDS.

They try to say okay I see what Jesus did.

And they do it.

Paul was accusing The Galatians of.

In the church of Galatia There was Judaizers that came.

Is what they're called.

And they were trying to.

All they were trying to do was take what Jesus did.

This, this perfect sacrifice.

All they were trying to do was add on top of that.

Circumcision.

Okay it's all that Jesus did, sure sure sure.

But you also have to get circumcised.

Otherwise you're not saved.

So what we're trying to demonstrate.

What my brother's trying to demonstrate as well is.

It's only this.

It's not this.

And then the word of wisdom.

Being sealed in the temple.

Doing temple endowments.

Going on mission.

Looking perfect to your neighbors.

In Utah.

All these pressures right.

We're saying it's a free gift.

That's all it is, it's a free gift.

And it's only his work.

It's only Jesus' work.

You're awesome for sitting here listening to us by the way I really appreciate it.

I love stuff like this.

I was accidentally almost joined a cult one time.

It was actually very funny.

But um.

It was a while ago.

If you're into cults, there's a podcast.

That him and I actually do together.

Called Cultish.

I love podcasts.

I'm actually just Have you ever heard of like Mormon Stories podcast.

Like I, a family That was in my parents' ward just did this.

Like three part, like eight hour long.

Total thing about how they left the church.

Oh wow.

Pull out your phone real quick, pull up the podcast app.

It's on Spotify?

You can go to, whatever your podcast Catcher is, go to it.

It's on there.

All different cults.

We talked with Warren Jeff's 65th wife.

I hate Warren Jeff's.

For a good reason.

That's us.

Oh my gosh, I might love this.

I hope so.

We want you to know the truth.

You have to listen to the first episode Of Jim Jones.

You ever heard of Jim Jones and the Kool -Aid?

I mean, the episode is so eerie.

And it's crazy.

Like back in October 2018.

So we're about two and a half years in.

Do you have a good following?

Yeah, we've been in the top like 100s.

In the religion spirituality.

There's a couple times where he outranked Joel Steen and stuff like that.

Sometimes he won't even let me stand near him.

He's a big deal.

No, no, no, no.

But one of the things that's different too Is that a lot of people.

And sometimes, if I'm honest The Mormon Stories podcast is kind of depressing.

Oh, it breaks my heart.

It's a misery loves company.

And one of my motivations for even doing Kultish Is that I watch shows like Scientology of the Aftermath

With Leah Remini and Mike Rinder Or just a couple of their Netflix documentaries Where people just kind of get spit out the other end.

And they're just completely lost And broken.

And I would Like I said a while back The existence of the counterfeit Predicates the

authenticity of an original.

And there's lots of people though I've known who are Kultists.

Yeah, who are Kultists who have Left but they've found hope in Christ

Like the true biblical Christ And the hope of the gospel.

Those are good stories.

And I almost want to make it as a It was sort of a motivation To show people that we

have a lot of people That were in a cult.

But they came out and they actually found the Christ As scripture and now they have a life of hope Versus a lot of people who just sort of leave.

And now they're kind of like I can just think for myself.

Well it's like G .K. Chesterton Is one of my favorite Christian philosophers Said that an open

mouth is no different than an open mind.

Eventually it has to bite down on something.

And if our minds are so Our minds are so susceptible When you look at group things And undue influence There

has to be an objective standard Outside of ourselves Where you can give an accounting for why that

was wrong.

A lot of those people They know inherently that it was wrong To be abused that way or be

disfellowshipped Or to be abandoned In that way Or to other people who are

Being sexually assaulted.

And somehow The person is trying to use God as a club In order to enact that.

They know inherently That it's wrong and that it's wrong That it happened to them because they're made in the image of God And they have value.

But they can't give an ultimate accounting for it.

There isn't an ultimate point of reference.

One thing I just want to share with you.

And this is one of my favorite Sections of the Bible.

And it may be relevant too Especially since being in the LDS church For a while.

So in Acts 17 Paul is in Athens, Greece.

And he's just like overwhelmed Because the whole place is just full of items.

Right, they're just over.

He's just overwhelmed by it.

And he goes to The Areopagus And he talks about.

And he kind of uses this as a catalyst To share the gospel with them.

And he says, I men of Athens I see you are a very religious people.

Because I even saw You had a statue called to the unknown God To this unknown God I proclaim to you

Not saying that the statue Was God.

That's sort of the metaphor that he used As a catalyst to share the gospel.

So this is Yeah, yeah.

This is the highlighted one?

Should I read it out loud?

Yeah, sure.

Okay.

The God who made the world and everything in it Being the Lord of heaven and earth Does not live in temples made by man Nor is he

served by human type As though he is made of nothing Since he himself gives to all mankind Life

and breath and everything And he made the one to live on the face of

the earth And determined A lot of periods and the boundaries Of their double place That

they should seek God and perhaps feel their way Towards him and find him Yet he is actually not far

From each one of us.

That's lovely.

So I like that because obviously It says he's not.

He doesn't live in.

He does not reside in a temple nor is he served by human hands.

Which kind of refutes The whole idea of temples.

To begin with.

Since Christ is our mediator.

But I love the fact that it talks about How he is appointed to every single person.

That everyone could reach out for him.

That God is not far from each one of us.

Like deism where God is somewhere far off.

Or Gnosticism where God is There's some sort of big esoteric Hidden knowledge that you can't really know.

The beauty of the Christian gospel.

Is that the Christian God.

He's not far from each one of us.

He's not far from you.

Like it says the day of salvation Is near.

So yeah, you know.

Like I said It's one of those things where If you take into account that verse And

just being appointed God's appointed your time.

To where God's not far from each one of us.

You know You might take our track.

We may never see you again.

But I think given what scripture says That I don't think it was an accident.

That you took the time.

You could be anywhere.

This could have been a five minute conversation.

This ended up being a bit longer.

Even you say.

Everything happens for a reason, right?

Yeah We actually do a counseling thing Where the three of us will sit

down With people who have come out of different faiths And like We help people unwind the yo

-yo.

Like that's all twisted up.

So like Again, I'm Pastor Wade.

Contact at ApologeoUtah .com.

Like so If you ever want to message us And you just have more of these type of questions This is

what we do.

And it won't be our opinion.

We'll point you to the word of God And say this is what it says Because God is real And

he has spoken.

And so that carries weight, right?

So anyways If you ever want to meet up We'll get coffee

In whatever place of your choosing We'll sit down We'll do more of these questions too.

We're here for you.

I really have a heart for you.

And so just Seeing what you're saying And your love for What you do

with schooling and stuff I really appreciate you.

Quick question, do you have a Bible that's not connected to a quad?

No I literally I was going from my house tonight And I said I'm going to bring a Bible I can

give.

So give me one second.

Because I really think it would be awesome for you To read the book of John And read

the book of Romans.

Just take your time And read those things.

We were members of our church In Arizona.

If you ever search Apologia On YouTube, excuse me You'll see our

pastor Jeff Durbin.

And he's talking with.

Right in the Bible?

Yeah dude.

Oh come on I have a little pamphlet.

Alright, alright.

Alright.

Pastor Jeff Durbin.

Apologia Church.

Yeah that's.

That's where we all come from.

Actually yeah we could just Show you, he does some cool stuff on.

Our pastor has done stuff With you know Talking with atheists Having a dialogue with

them.

Let me show you our channel real quick Apologia Studios.

And so.

Yeah if you go here And I don't know you can type in.

Even just Apologia Mormon.

And so.

There's crazy stuff.

Do you have a lot of Mormon converts?

Oh yeah.

Jehovah's Witnesses.

They spoke with this guy named Kwaku.

I don't know if you ever heard of him.

Oh I hate Kwaku.

I hate Kwaku so much.

Fun fact I went on a few dates with him.

Terrible awful man.

I hate him so much.

We want him to know Jesus.

Was he like trying to contest it?

Oh yeah he was arguing with our two pastors.

There's Jeff and James.

There's all these things.

Them talking with Pastor Jeff.

Jeff with the beard talking with Mormons.

I've never been out with a man who could talk about himself for that long.

Really?

I couldn't get one word in.

Nice to meet you Dusty.

Yeah stuff with atheists.

See you tomorrow.

Good night.

We even have our open house For our churches tomorrow night at 7pm.

I work tomorrow night.

Oh that's fine.

I don't have a car.

Oh okay.

I mean you've got a bible.

You've got a bible.

You've got that tracked.

You know how to reach out to us.

If you message me and I'll get you in touch with them too.

Check out their podcast as well.

The first one with Jim Jones is crazy.

All of it is really good.

Just be aware that that first episode Is the actual death tape at Jonestown.

So there's real audio of people Drinking the Kool -Aid and dying.

I know yeah I hate to say I'm an Aquarius so I deep dive into that.

I love cult stuff.

I hate cults.

Yeah I know what you mean.

We have a cult podcast.

One of my best friends when I was in high school.

He ended up getting tested.

Sociopath.

Absolute sociopath.

Could have led a cult if he wanted to.

That was a crazy experience.

Wow.

He went to school he went to BYU with me.

Well we were friends before we went to BYU.

We went to BYU together.

I was like I feel like you don't care about me.

He's like yeah I never did.

And I was like oop.

Love you.

There's some guys who have like no empathy People will hurt people And they'll like have no

Reality or concept of like the hurt that they've caused.

They need Jesus man.

That's always weird yeah.

I don't doubt that.

But yeah we're praying for you Rebecca.

We just want you to know the true Christ.

And you know one day even maybe.

Come to one of our churches and visit.

Sometimes so I know you have a lot of people.

This whole town is full of people going.

Believe what we're saying.

Well I'm leaving here in a month so I'll be gone I'll be away.

But we also.

We have an episode too on astrology.

From a lady who's on astrology.

It's like a two part series.

Well here's my thing about astrology.

Is I don't believe it inherently that it's true.

But I just think it's so fun.

I think it's so funny.

Like a cultural thing.

Yeah I think it's so funny.

Like when people say like oh this is a pipe tease.

And I'm like yeah my mom's exactly like that.

We've done all sorts of stuff.

We've talked about you know some of the friends.

Like UFOs Psychedelics.

People who get into like the DMT Astral projection.

New age stuff.

Anything that's like fringe we want to be able to.

You know take it on.

From a biblical world view.

From God's word.

Can I actually ask one more question?

Can I just get a short video with you guys?

I do this thing where like I do a video everyday.

Just like explaining what happened today.

And I haven't done one yet.

Can you just be really quick and give a little spiel and talk about yourself.

Yeah.