Matt Slick Live: June 25, 2024

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The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. Matt Slick Live!

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Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at CARM .org.

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When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me,

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Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live. Today's date is June 25th, 2024. Yeah, that's right, 2024.

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I'm doing all these numbers today. Hey, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

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You can also email me, just send an email to info at CARM .org. Info at CARM, C -A -R -M dot

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O -R -G, put in the subject line there, just put CARM question or excuse me, radio question, radio comment, and we can get to them.

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I've got a few here waiting. You can do that. We just had an interesting one come in. I can take a look at that on the air. If you're new to the show,

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I'm a Christian apologist. What that means is I defend the Christian faith, answer questions and things like that.

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I'm not saying you've got all the answers. I know there are a lot of people who disagree with me on a lot of topics, and that's okay, but I just say, hey, please, just disagree with Scripture and give a valid interpretation.

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Let's see what happens. But nevertheless, if you want, you can give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

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I think 2276 spells C -A -R -M on the dial on the phone, so on your pad if you want to check it out.

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All right. All right. We have nobody waiting right now. I think what I'm going to do is just tell you what

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I've been working on, and then I jump to some verses or some emails. So lately, lately,

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I've been interested in studying Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and so they talk about their priesthood, and I've always thought that their priesthood was

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Old Testament priesthood, not New Testament. So yesterday and today,

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I did research, and I found all the words with the word priest, priestly, things like that, priesthood, in the

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New Testament, every one of them, and I did a search looking at every single one of their occurrences, and then

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I'm working on an article. I've got it scheduled to release in a couple of days, and I'm going to modify it a little bit more.

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So I wanted to find out what is the equivalent of the New Testament priesthood. What is it?

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What is the New Testament priesthood? What does it teach? Well, there's the Jewish priesthood that is mentioned.

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There's priestly office. There's actually a priesthood, the priests of Zeus, that are mentioned for real in Acts 16.

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I think it is the priests of Zeus, but that's a false priesthood. So, I could do a lot more study on this one,

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Hebrews 5, 6, 7, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek. So there's that, and then

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I found the priesthood of all believers in 1 Peter 2, 5, 7. I could find nothing in the

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New Testament that teaches the priesthood the way the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have, where the priest has authority to do all these things.

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So what I was doing, I spent an hour or so on my Logos Bible program, going through the

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Catholic Catechism and looking at the word priest, and priestly, priesthood, and every single occurrence.

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It's about 250, and I'm about halfway through. What I'm trying to do is find out what the Catechism, the official documentation of the

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Catholic Church says are the duties of the priest. And halfway through,

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I found some very interesting stuff, and the impression I'm getting is that their priesthood is still underneath the

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Old Testament style, not the New Testament one. And I'll be discussing that and working on that, and I'm also going to study the priesthood of Christ and what that means.

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This is just my kind of a good time, to study stuff like this.

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I enjoy it, I really do. It's kind of weird, huh? You know, when

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I was 19, 20, 21, I said, hey, you know what you're going to like doing when you're 60s? I said, you've got to be kidding me,

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I'm not going to do that. But I enjoy it, and good stuff. So anyway, I'll be getting more information on that.

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I might field test some of the stuff I find tonight. I'll have to go on to chat rooms, I'll have to look for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, and then start conversations with them.

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And a lot of times there's pretty knowledgeable ones in there, and so what I'll do is I'll ask questions and say, what about this, what about that, and they don't know

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I'm taking notes. I always take notes, almost always. I really enjoy it. For me, it's a good time.

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I know, I've got issues. Most guys, what they do is go fishing for entertainment or watch sports.

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Me, I'm like, let's go talk to Catholics. Let's go talk to Eastern Orthodox and research every occurrence of the word in the

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Greek New Testament. They're like, man, you've got issues. And that is true. But nevertheless, hey, there you go.

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Let's get to Buskman from Dayton, Ohio. Buskman, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, you are definitely a geek, my friend.

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Yes, I am. I'm calling you out. You are one. But I've got to say this, Matt, you're an amazing geek, and I am glad you're on the radio for people to enjoy what you geek out about because I know out here in Dayton, Ohio, we are very grateful for your scholarship,

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Matt, and I mean that with a true and sound and sober heart. Thank you, brother. Well, for all of those who are listening to me out there in Ohio, I'm waving and just saying hi.

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Praise God. So, yeah, I got some more geek stuff to talk about, some tech geek stuff

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I'm researching too. But at any rate, so what do you got, buddy? What's up? Well, the last

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I talked to you, I had phone issues, Matt, but I wanted to get this out in front of you, brother, because it seems like just lately we've had some real issues.

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Dr. Tony Evans, Robert Morris, all having what's called moral failures,

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Matt, where they have to step down from their positions in their churches. And I know both of these men have been very influential over the years.

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I remember Dr. Tony Evans many years ago, listened to him at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship and always enjoyed

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Pastor Evans' teachings. So what I want to ask you about, Matt, is church discipline.

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In general terms, Matt, what is it biblically? Are we reproducing it correctly here in the 21st century?

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And should we do it to the pastor? Should we apply that to a pastor in the church, Matt? Yes, a pastor needs to be under discipline if necessary.

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So the procedures are laid out in Matthew 18. You go to the individual and you ask that individual about certain things.

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Is this true? Is it not true? Whatever it is. And with witnesses and or you go to the elders of the church.

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And if there's an issue of sin, and not just, oh,

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I took a paperclip from work, okay, you know, accidentally or whatever, you're struggling with a little bit of pride, you know, you're just working on it.

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Now, we're talking like adultery, pornography, we're looking at stuff that it's just bad. So let's say these allegations are true, and let's say they are of a pastor, well, then what should be done?

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Then the elders, depending on the severity of what's going on, like adultery, of course, or having an emotional relationship with someone other than the wife, but someone else having problems with pornography, things like that, then he needs to step down, he can't be pastor.

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Because the pastor and elder is supposed to be above reproach. And we're not absolutely requiring perfection, but we are requiring a certain level of propriety and sanctification, because the pastor is supposed to be above those things.

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And if he cannot be, you know, above those things, and he needs to step down in the church, the elders need to institute that and they need to then go to the church, depending on the situation and what the agreement is, to say what the sin was, or maybe not.

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Just depending, because you can't say this or that for every circumstance and every situation.

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But the elders would then need to say to the church, the pastor's under discipline and for a failure, the failure is in this category, and we'll be working with him in discipline and or whatever, you know.

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Let's just say the pastor's repentant, let's say he didn't get caught, but he fessed up, that he acknowledged his sin, no one knew about it except him and maybe a party, whatever, and he came forth.

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Well, now there's issues of can he be restored to the ministry?

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Well that's another issue, it depends on circumstances and what's going on. But when someone generally brings it up themselves, that's a good thing.

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And depending, I would say he might be open to holding the pulpit again, but it would just depend on a lot of variables.

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So if he's repentant, then he's welcome to go to the table and take communion. If he's unrepentant, then he cannot go to the table and receive communion.

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There's a lot of variables in there. I'm just trying to speak generically at the same time, does that make sense?

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It does, Matt, and I'm glad you touched on that second part, restoration.

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Ever since I saw what happened to Robert Morris and Tony Evans, I've really been examining the scriptures myself, and I came across 2

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Corinthians chapter 2, Matt, 5 to 11, 2

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Corinthians chapter 2, verses 5 to 11. And I believe, knowing you, you're geeking out right now,

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Matt, that's why I love you, you're probably looking it up. I read it over, and from what

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I understand, Matt, is this is a direction from the Apostle Paul to the

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Corinthian church after 1 Corinthians chapter 5, where there was a man sleeping with his dad's wife.

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And in the first letter, he tells the church members to deliver him up to Satan—I believe that's how

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King James puts it—deliver him up to Satan, that his soul might be saved and his sin nature destroyed.

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And so, when he gets to the second letter, Matt, there's this portion of his writing there in 2

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Corinthians chapter 2, verses 5 to 11, where it looks like, Matt, I mean, as far as I understand it, sir, he's now telling that same church that expelled him and delivered him up to Satan to now receive him and even—I thought this was an amazing word,

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Matt—comfort him, that he not be overcome in sorrow, for we know the works of the devil.

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And I thought, wow. So in between those two letters,

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Matt, it looks like there was a deliverance up to Satan. It could have been disciplinary. It probably was something pretty harsh.

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The harshness then broke the sex offender, if you will, to the point where he repented.

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We don't know if it's the same person. Okay. We don't know if it's the same person. We don't know for sure, but it looks pretty similar.

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And I have checked some commentaries, and the majority, Matt, seem to believe that it's the same man.

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It could be. And it kind of fits in Scripture, because when you think about it, when a man has been delivered, say he went to prison, and the prison sentence broke him, and the church watched him go to prison, watched him be broken, then comes out repentant, it seems like 2

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Corinthians 5, or 2 verses 5 to 11. It's a restoration. Right. But it doesn't fit with the pastor, though.

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It's a restoration. Yeah. That's different with the pastor. Okay. Because he's supposed to have a good reputation with those outside the church, so they will not fall under reproach and the snare of the devil.

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So there's a higher standard for those who are in ministry. And the pastor, if he were, let's just say, committed adultery, he's disqualified.

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Period. Done. That's it. He can't be a pastor again. Does that mean no more pastoring of any kind of congregations in man?

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Is that what that means? He can't be a pastor. He was supposed to be a man above reproach, and he fell into incredibly great sin.

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And so can he be trusted? And the answer is, well, maybe, maybe not. But he must have a good reputation.

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And he just destroyed his reputation. So he could no longer have that. Hey, hold on.

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We've got a break, okay? Folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

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All right, let's get back on with Buck Buskman. You there? I'm still here,

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Matt. Okay. So, well, I'm not sure where to kind of continue with that because we were going through a bunch of stuff.

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Oh, yeah. I remember now. The elder must be above reproach. Restoration. Yes. You know, there was an instance that happened in seminary.

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We got word of it. We had a discussion about it in class. There was a Presbyterian pastor who had become emotionally attached to a woman who was working within the church, or a congregation member working with,

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I'm not sure, other than his wife. He brought it up. So what they did was they removed him, the

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Presbyterian removed him from the pulpit and urged him and worked with him to go through counseling.

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And so I had respect for him because things like that can happen. And he brought it up.

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He regarded the pulpit and the sanctity of his own marriage in high regard, brought it to the elders.

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And I think it was something about a two -year discipline. Discipline sounds so harsh, but it was a two -year thing.

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He had to go through stuff for two years before they would re -engage the idea of him being back in the pulpit.

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And with him, I think it's okay. If he's gone through the counseling, everything's worked, the elders say it's okay, then fine.

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Because that's different than he committed adultery. That's different. Okay. So then it's in the subjectivity about, well, which is worse?

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And it just takes a lot of elders' discussions and training. So it's not easy to just simply answer really quickly.

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Yeah, I definitely do not want, I wouldn't want the spot of Tony Evans or Robert Morris's eldership.

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That's got to be very, as you say, very, wow, burdensome.

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Now, I also found this other verse, Matt, that I thought was quite interesting along these lines.

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And it's Proverbs chapter 17, verse 9,

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Proverbs 17, verse 9. And I remember in the

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NIV, let me read it so people can know, he who conceals a transgression seeks love, but he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.

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Okay. Right. So if love covers the pastor's sin or any

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Christian sin, Matt, I think it's interesting that Solomon wrote that second part to that verse that says, repeating, that's what really stuck out to me,

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Matt, repeating the matter separates close friends. That is a relationship, it looks like, where, you know, if we repeated

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Robert Morris's or Tony Evans' downfall, are we not separating that man from all kinds of different relationships, whether it be his church, his family?

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So how do you apply that, I guess? How would a Christian apply 17 .9? Well, that's a proverb.

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And so it's not in the context of a church discipline, church order in a pastoral epistle.

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So then what you have to do is the committee involved with such a disciplinary action, if this verse was brought up, they would have to have an analysis of it in its context to see how it might apply to the situation.

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And so, you know, he who conceals a transgression seeks love.

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What does that mean? They have to examine that. And he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends. If you can repeat sinful actions, it's going to cause relationship problems.

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I think that's what's going on. Now, is that correct? And if it is correct, then how does it apply?

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Well, it's just a statement of the damage done. And so the issue of the elders is they need to be well -trained and well -grounded in Scripture.

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And so that they can lovingly administer discipline to the pastor or another elder or people in the church.

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I have a saying that I like to live by, I'd rather err on the side of grace than law.

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So if a man, a pastor, has committed adultery, let's just say flat -out adultery, I'm sorry, he's disqualified.

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If a man is just struggling with an attraction to someone in the church that he shouldn't have,

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I get it. We can have those kinds of things, it's okay. But what is he doing with it?

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How is he dealing with it? He's going to the elders, look, I've got an issue, I want you to hold me accountable. Well, no problem.

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Let's work with them and let's get grace in here, not the woman, but be gracious, get grace in here and live that way and work that way.

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That's how I would recommend it be tackled and it have be adapted to the particular individual situation and issues.

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So, if a leader, it could be a pastor, let's say he did go all the way and commit full -blown adultery, the eldership brought him through like your friend that you were speaking of, two years of counseling, two years of intense intervention, let's just say,

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Matt. At the end of two years, two years and one day, according to what

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I'm hearing with your wisdom, he is not to return to his pulpit or any pulpit after that.

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I can't say his or any because, and not two years to the day, it was,

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I remember something about it was just a two -year thing they were going to do and that's what the agreement was and he stepped down and after two years, they're going to revisit everything, okay.

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So then the elders would get together, the committee would get together, they would interview him and go through the procedures and see because if he's fully repentant and he's the one who exposed his own sin, then this is a man whose heart is before God.

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He's recognized the problem and he's trying to deal with it. We don't want to throw him under the bus. I saw, yeah, like Psalm 51,

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David, when he committed that atrocity against Bathsheba by killing

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Uriah the Hittite, he was restored. I remember

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Nathan said, your sin is put away, you shall not die.

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And he was restored. Now there was a lot of payment, obviously, that David paid. He lost his baby on the eighth day.

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The very next chapter is Tamarah being raped by his... But bring concepts up.

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So, but the thing I would say is the elders need to be involved with this, records need to be kept and a lot of discernment, love, patience needs to be worked.

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But there would probably be certain sins that we don't want to say, oh, that's okay.

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You committed adultery and now you're okay after a year and get back in.

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No, I can't see that. Okay. And getting back to the first, yeah, real quick, getting back to the first Corinthian passage, that's what

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Paul was getting on him because the church was like celebrating this guy for sleeping with his dad's wife.

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And I remember Paul rebuking those people saying, no, that's not what you do. Deliver him up to Satan, that his soul might be saved and his sin nature destroyed.

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So once it's destroyed, I just wonder that could happen today in even the past where his sin nature was destroyed and was restored back to him.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's okay. It's like he's been killed. God will take him out.

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Okay. That's what's going on here. All right. Now, physical death. God bless, Matt. Always appreciate your insight.

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All right, man. God bless. Hey, folks. We'll be right back after these messages. We'll get to Carl and then Mike, and please stay tuned.

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We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

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All right, man. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

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Let's get to Carl from Dayton, Ohio. Hey, Carl. Welcome. You're on the air. Howdy. Can you hear me?

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I can hear you. Yes, I can. Yes, I can. Okay. I'm just going to give you an observation of a person, and I just want you to give me a summary of this person, because it's an oddity to me.

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So I have a friend, very close friend, but I thought he was in the kingdom for like 20 years.

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Todd's Sunday school, and I thought he believed everything that I believed and you believed, and was being considered for two congregations of being a pastor, but he kept showing me little indicators throughout the years.

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I just didn't want to believe it. So finally, I was upstairs at work, and somebody said, just ask him something,

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Joe. Now I've been on this guy for like 20 years, 20 years. I know he's in the kingdom, but he kept giving me little indicators.

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So I just went downstairs. I said, tell me something. Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

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He says, no. I said, do you believe in the virgin birth? He says, no.

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I said, do you believe in that you need Christ to be reconciled to God the

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Father? He says, no. So what I want you to tell me, just give me, and I'm going to let you go, just give me a brief summary of an apostate.

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I've never met one. I've heard of them, but when you actually meet one, and you really, really know that they're in the kingdom or they're not, they're just an oddity to me.

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I just don't get it. Well, let's talk about it. But no, he's not a Christian. He's a, he's a, he's a false convert and you need to tell him he's a false convert.

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Okay. If he denies the deity of Christ, John 8, 24, Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

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And John 8, 58, he says, before Abraham was, I am that picked up stones to kill him. And John 10, 30 through 34, he says,

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I and the father are one that picked up stones again to throw at him. And he said many good words, Father, I've shown you for which of these are you stoning me?

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And I said, for good work, we don't stone you, but for a blasphemy, because you being a man, because there ought to be God.

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And so the deniers of Christ, them, he agrees with the deniers that he's not

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God in flesh. You just need to tell him flat out, you know, and gently, but appropriately that he's not a true

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Christian and that he's under judgment and that if he dies now, the way he is, he'll go to eternal damnation.

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Okay. Well, that's what I did. So towards the end of our phone call, I just said, real casually, I said, you know,

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I said, I want you to make that Hebrews 9, 27 trip. I said, you know, it's no do -overs, right? He says, I know. And I just casually said, you're lost real casual.

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And he went, oh, F F on me, he went off. He's always Mr. Cool, but I saw a side of him

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I've never seen before. He went off on me and more or less kind of hung up on me. I thought that it was weird.

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It was just weird to me. It's normal. It's normal because you called him out. You called him out on his sin and his denial and you, you spoke the truth and he reacted against it.

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That's not your, your fault. It's his. So, you know, you do what was right and you need to tell him he's lost.

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If you see him again, it comes up. You say, if you died right now, you'd go to hell. You've denied what the Bible says.

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You need to repent. You need to come to Christ. Trust in him. So all these years he's been a poser and a faker all these years, because like I said, he wanted to be the pastor of two churches.

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These are like Bible believing churches. Yep. Fascinating.

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Have you ever met someone like that? Have you ever met anyone like that? Of course you have. Um, you know, I probably have.

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I've met so many people over the years and people with different stories and stuff. But, uh, I can't recall one off the top of my head to that degree.

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You want to be a pastor and deny who Christ is. But I'm not surprised by that. So, uh, you did what was right.

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Do you want me to pray for someone like that? Absolutely. You pray for him. You pray for him. Okay. Great. Okay. Okay.

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Okay. Because if he knew I was praying for him to come to repentance, you know, that God would grant him repentance.

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He's so arrogant. He would probably say to me, well, why are you praying for me? I don't need you to pray for me. I don't need that.

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Because he told me he wouldn't even talk about Christ anymore. That's what he told me. So, um. Yeah. He's, he's, uh, he's just a false convert.

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Uh, he's demonically oppressed. He's denying the things of scripture. And, um, he has, he's built a thing of God.

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around his own preferences and you're pushing on that house of cards and he doesn't like it.

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So keep praying and just do what you're doing, buddy. Okay. I sure will.

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Okay. Thank you, brother. Have a good evening. You too, man. Let me know what happens, buddy. All right. I sure will.

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Bye -bye. God bless. All right. Hey, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

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Let's get to Mike from Durham, North Carolina. Mike, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, thanks,

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Matt. Um, my question has to do with tithing. Uh, we get, me and my wife get paid basically every week.

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She gets paid. Today, I get paid on Thursday and we have been tithing when she gets paid for, for both of us.

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And, uh, for whatever reason, I've been convicted or dwelling on the first fruits, fruits.

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And I'm like, I don't know. Should we be setting aside a check? Because I don't know. know, we won't go to church until Sunday.

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So if you get paid today, like how does first fruits work on a Tuesday? You know, is it okay with what we're doing?

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And like, how did that work back in the day? You know, if people worked all day and they got a ton of grain, did they get home?

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And then it's like, oh, I got to go move 10 % of what I got today. Uh, the, you know, the church or whomever, uh, yeah, there you go.

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So that's Old Testament where it was the law. You're obligated to do these things. Give the first fruits of your work, your labor, first fruits of the cattle, of the, of the agriculture.

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And we're no longer under the law. You're not obligated to tithe at all. Okay. You're not obligated.

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So don't think you have to think of it this way, but you're free to. We don't mind to at all.

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In fact, we kind of enjoy seeing that every church is hurting a little bit and, uh, you know, seeing that we can help out because we have been blessed over the last two years where many, many people in the

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United States have not been. So yes, we don't mind. So I like to tell people you're free to be able to tithe and to give what you want and what you think is right before God.

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You take it to God, you and your wife, you decide what you're going to do and how much you think 10 % is what you should do, then do it.

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If you think 15, then do that. If you think a little bit less and do that. So my wife and I, our preference is to help people.

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My personal preferences, you know, I don't mind tithing to the church, but I like to, you know, have a friend who needs help.

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I'll get that for you. I'll do this for you. I'll do that for you. Uh, I like that because I can see direct help of people who need it.

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So there's just different ways because it's for the body of Christ and it's for the work of the ministry.

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You're free to do it. You just have to decide what you're going to do, how much you're going to do and how often. Okay. All right.

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Sounds good. Okay. And sometimes if you do a little and sometimes you do a lot, that's up to you, but don't feel, don't feel guilt ridden and beat up because you didn't give 10%.

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But I do know a lot of people and they do that and they give 10%. That's what they do. Fine. Praise God. Okay.

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That's, that's fine. Yeah. I was just wondering the timing of it. I'm like, you know, does it really say, uh, you know, give your first fruits, like, like how did that work?

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How would that work today with scheduling? How did that work? Then, you know, do they take all their product to market and then get paid one day?

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Do they stop at a synagogue on the way home? Like, you know, just trying to figure it out.

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Oh, well, um, if you're talking about net or gross or when, um, back in the old

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Testament, I don't, I don't know exactly how it was done, but the general idea was that you say you have a hundred bushes of grain that you produced off of your land.

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10 % of it went to, uh, the needs, uh, to the Lord and the administration of it to the priesthood.

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That was the system that they had and that's what they did. You know, that kind of a thing.

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And so you did that kind of thing. If you didn't, you're in trouble with God, but we're not under that law anymore.

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We're not under law or under grace. That's why I say you're not obligated to tithe. You're free to, and the pastor does need to, uh, live off of his work and you can go to first, uh, first Timothy five 17 and check this out.

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This is what's interesting. A lot of people don't know this is, uh, I don't get to it.

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Come on, turn it up. It says the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching for the scripture says you shall not muzzle the ox while he's threshing and the labor is worthy of his wages.

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Well, I read a commentary once where the person said they can make the case that the pastor gets double the money of others because, uh, don't muzzle the ox while he's threshing.

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The labor is worthy of his wages. Uh, where's the one? I get a double thing. I'm trying to remember. Oh yeah. Double honor up in the first one.

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He said he could make the case, he could exegete it that way. Not that he would. So some say that the honor that the elders are due are due is an honor of support because it says he's worthy of his wages.

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So we need to support the pastor through our, our giving or tithing and our, our offerings that are sometimes above that.

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And that's what we do as Christians. Okay. All right.

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All right, man. There you go. All right. Well, thank you very much. All right. God bless. Hey folks, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276, we get back,

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I'm going to talk about, uh, Andrew, what was his name? Oh, I'm going to find it.

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And then I'll tell you a little story about him. It's a good story. Anyway, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

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We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

34:15

All right. Welcome back to the show. We have nobody waiting.

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I read through an autobiography of him because I was really impressed with this guy, George Mueller, very humble man and very, very dedicated to serving

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God through prayer and whatever God would direct him to do. And so, uh, when he, he was a pagan,

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I mean that generic sense, you know, he's worldly and ungodly and all that until he got saved.

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And, um, he ended up becoming a pastor and I'll never forget this.

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His deal with the eldership of the church that he pastored was that they would not let him know, excuse me, not let the congregation know that he was living off their tithes.

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His philosophy was that God is blessing. God is opening the door. God called him to be a pastor there and God will close the door when he doesn't want him there anymore.

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And the sign of him staying or leaving would be the support that would come into the tithe box.

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That's just how they did it back then, apparently. So, he told the elders, you don't say anything to anybody, that it's just as he preaches, as he teaches, as he works with people, as they support freely from God, that's what he'll live on.

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And that was it. That was his deal. And they said, okay. And so he said there were many times when he and his wife had no food and they would, he would just go to the tithe box and there'd be a little something in the tithe box and he'd take that little something and go to the market and get food and that's how he ate.

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And this is how he lived. And so, I never forgot that.

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And he said it was very frequent that they would have no food and they would just go to the tithe box and it'd be just what they needed.

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And that was his way of living. To live off the support of the people to whom he was preaching and teaching and ministering.

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And so God put it upon the people's hearts to give what was needed so that George Mueller would continue to work in that church.

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And after a while, he was called to do something else. He was called to start an orphanage.

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And that's another story, which is really a great story. But I never forgot that issue of his trust in his prayer, trust in the

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Lord that the church would provide, that he would provide to the people. Never forgot that. It's a good lesson for all of us.

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Let's get to Jason from Utah. Jason, welcome. You are on the air. Hi Matt.

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Hey. So what do you want to do? I wanted to ask you about the five points of Calvinism.

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I apologize if you have this published somewhere, but I've heard you mentioned on the radio show that you're not a

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Calvinist. I was wondering if you'd mind walking where you are. Yes. I misheard that.

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That's all right. Well, I was just going to, I guess, ask you about the five points of Calvinism.

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I was going to ask you about which ones of them you didn't traditionally align on.

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But I guess if you are a Calvinist, maybe you could just walk through the five points and maybe through which ones were the most difficult for you to arrive at.

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Sure. Actually, that's a good question. So the five points are known by the acronym TULIP, T -U -L -I -P.

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And so T stands for total depravity. And what that means is that a human being is touched by sin in all parts of his makeup, his heart, soul, mind, body, emotions, thinking.

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They're all affected by sin. And the result of this effect of sin upon him is that he will never, of his sinfully enslaved free will, he will never choose

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God. And I can give you lots of scriptures for that because I've been debating this for over 30 years in teaching.

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I know a lot about it. And so that's just the position. And then so God has to grant that they have faith and things like that,

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John 660, or John Philippians 129, grants that they come to Christ, John 665, stuff like that.

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Unconditional election is U, so T -U -L -I -P, unconditional means that God does not look into the future to see who he chooses for salvation.

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The Bible says we're chosen for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2 .13, and that God elected us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that's

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Ephesians 1 .4, and as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed, Acts 13 .48.

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So this is the work of God from the foundation of the world. So the U says no, he didn't look into the future to see who'd pick him, what good quality or anything like that.

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He chose based on what's in him, not what's in us. L is for limited atonement.

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That means that Jesus only bore the sin of the elect. He did not bear the sin of everybody who ever lived.

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That was a tough one for me, and it took me the longest to accept that one, and now, believe it or not, it's my favorite, because I know it very well, and I'm able to defend it very well.

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And if you don't agree, that's okay, it doesn't mean you're not a Christian or anything like that. It's a debatable issue here.

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But we say that the blood of Christ is sufficient to save everybody, but the issue is, did he legally bear the sin of everybody?

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Because sin's a legal debt, and Jesus says in our Father who art in heaven, he says in Matthew 6 .12,

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he says, forgive us our debts, and in parallel, Luke 11 .4 says, forgive us our sins.

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So Jesus equates sin with legal debt, and he bore our sin in his body, 1 Peter 2 .24,

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and he canceled the sin debt at the cross, Colossians 2 .14. So if he canceled the sin debt, he paid it, then you can't go to hell for a sin debt that doesn't exist anymore.

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This is illogic. And so that's hell for limited atonement, the blood of Christ is sufficient for all, but he only legally bore the sin of the elect.

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I is irresistible grace. What that means is not that people can't resist

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God's graciousness, that's not what it means. It's kind of a mis -assigned phrase, but what it really means is at the point of regeneration, when

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God regenerates you, makes you born again, that you cannot resist it. That's what that irresistible grace is in reference to.

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He caused us to be born again, 1 Peter 1 .3, we're born again not of our own will, John 1 .12 and 13. So this is the work of God, and we're made new creatures, 2

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Corinthians 5 .17, or 5 .21. And so that's what's going on there.

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And then P, perseverance of the saints, is that those whom God has called to himself, granted eternal life, and redeemed, and paid for their sins, they will not be lost, they can't go to hell.

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That's the basics of five points, okay? Okay. I have, I guess, one adjacent question concerning unconditional election.

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Do you take that all the way to double predestination? Ooh, interesting that you said that.

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Double predestination is a teaching that God elects people for salvation, but also elects people for damnation.

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And that's a debated, a very debated one, even within reformed circles, because there's the active and passive action.

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So does God actively cause people to go to hell, or does he just let them go to hell because they are by nature children of wrath,

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Ephesians 2 .3, because they're represented by Adam who sinned, Romans 5 .18, 1 Corinthians 15 .22,

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trust me, I can get in on all this theology. And so the issue that supports the idea of double predestination can be found in Romans 9.

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I'm not saying this is the only way to interpret it, but Romans 9 .22 and 23, what if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience and vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction?

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What does it mean to say prepared for destruction, and this is where the discussion gets in. So I'm kind of halfway between single and double predestination.

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So because I don't know, because the Bible doesn't tell me, all right? Right. Yeah, it seems like if you started with S in front of Sulekher, sovereignty of God, it seems like a high view of that would indicate that that is not out of his control, but I don't know.

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At the same time, Adam and Eve had a real choice to choose whether or not to sin, but it wasn't outside of God's control either.

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So I don't know. Very good. It's difficult to grasp. All our free will choices are within the sovereignty of God because the

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Bible says he works all things after the counsel of his will. We still have free will, but the reform doctrine of free will is that free will is the ability to make a choice that's consistent with what you are and is not forced on you.

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And God is holy and righteous. He will only choose holy and righteous things. But the sinner is a slave of sin.

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Romans 6, 14 through 20, he doesn't seek for God, Romans 3, 10, 11 and 12. So he will make free will choices consistent with his fallenness.

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And that's why it's necessary that God grant that they have faith, Philippians 1, 29, grant them repentance, 2

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Timothy 2, 25, and grant that they come to Christ, John 6, 65, because Jesus says you can't come to me unless it's granted to you from the

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Father. And so there it is. Cool.

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Thanks a lot. I appreciate you walking through that with me. You can call back. I also have another website where I put this information on.

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It's called CalvinistCorner .com. CalvinistCorner .com. And you can check it out. I've written a lot there.

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And my wife, we've been married 36 years. And about, I don't know, I can't remember, 10 or 15 years ago,

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I asked her, are you a Calvinist? She goes, yeah. And the reason I'm bringing that up is because it wasn't a big deal to me.

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And it's not. If you don't agree, okay. Do you love Jesus? Is he God in flesh? Do you justify it by faith alone?

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Praise God. Let's go witness together. That's how I view it. And so, so much so the point,

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I didn't even know what my wife's status was because it wasn't important to her. So it's important to me because as a public figure and an apologist,

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I have to defend my position. And so I know it quite well. And I've written a great deal on it. And my notes on Calvinism are,

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I don't know, I can open them up and tell you, but I have notes on Calvinism, which I do in an outline form.

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Just like my notes on Catholicism is 200 and I think 230 pages.

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And my notes on Calvinism, I'm opening them up here. I've got kids in the background, don't I? And my notes on that, let's see what the page is, the last one

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I got right here. So it's 101 pages. So I do a lot of research and I do, you know,

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I know it well and I can stand up without notes and defend it and teach it for an hour, not saying I'm right, but I can do it because I've had to for so long.

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And that's what I hold to. And if people don't, that's okay, as long as they love Jesus, okay?

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Awesome. All right. Well, thanks a lot. Sure, brother. I'll check out your website for more.

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Okay. All right. You have a good afternoon. You too. And let me know what you think. You know, if you agree or disagree, we can talk.

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And check out 1 Samuel 3 .14. It'll just throw a monkey wrench into a lot of people's theology.

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1 Samuel 3 .14. I don't need a monkey wrench right now. Okay. 1

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Samuel 3 .14. All right. I'll check it out. Thanks. Oh, okay. I'll check it out.

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Yeah, sure. And if you ever have one, just a little phone time talking about stuff, I can help you out too. Okay. No problem.

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Contact me. Okay. Thank you. All right, buddy. Okay. Well, God bless. All right. Talk to you next time. Okay. Well, like I said, folks,

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I defend it because I need to. But if you don't agree with the five points, that's okay.

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What's important is not that. What's important is your affirmation of the doctrine of the

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Trinity, the person and work of Jesus Christ, God of flesh, died on the cross, rose from the dead. If you put your faith and your trust in Him, that's what's important.

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That's what's matter. That's what you have to die by. The five points is not the gospel.

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It's a perspective on Scripture. You can agree and disagree, and that's okay. May the Lord bless you by His grace.

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We'll be back on here tomorrow, and we'll talk to you then, okay? So I hope you all have a great evening. God bless everybody. Good night.