Matt Slick Live: June 25, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Show Introduction and Current Research on the New Testament Priesthood

All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live. Today's date is June 25th, 2024. Yeah, that's right, 2024. I'm doing all these numbers today. Hey, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

You can also email me, just send an email to info at karm .org, info at karm, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. Put in the subject line there, just put karm question, or excuse me, radio question, radio comment.

And we can get to them. I've got a few here waiting. You can do that. We just had an interesting one come in. I can take a look at that on the air. And if you're new to the show, I'm a Christian apologist.

What that means is I defend the Christian faith, answer questions and things like that. I'm not saying you've got all the answers. I know there are a lot of people who disagree with me on a lot of topics, and that's okay.

But I just say, hey, please, just disagree with Scripture and give a valid interpretation. Let's see what happens. But nevertheless, if you want, you can give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. I think 2276 spells C-A-R-M on the dial on the phone, so on your pad, if you want to check it out.

All right. All right. We have nobody waiting right now. I think what I'm going to do is just tell you what I've been working on, and then I jump to some verses or some emails. So lately, I've been interested in studying Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

And so they talk about their priesthood, and I've always thought that their priesthood was Old Testament priesthood, not New Testament. So yesterday and today, I did research, and I found all the words with the word priest, priestly, things like that, priesthood, in the New Testament, every one of them.

And I did a search looking at every single one of their occurrences. And then I'm working on an article I've got scheduled to release in a couple of days. And I'm going to modify it a little bit more.

So I wanted to find out what is the equivalent of the New Testament priesthood. What is it? What is the New Testament priesthood? What does it teach? Well, there's the Jewish priesthood that is mentioned.

There's priestly office. There's actually a priesthood, the priests of Zeus, that are mentioned for real in Acts 16. I think it is the priests of Zeus, but that's a false priesthood. So I could do a lot more study on this one, Hebrews 5, 6, 7, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek.

So there's that. And then I found the priesthood of all believers in 1 Peter 2, 5 and verse 7. I could find nothing in the New Testament that teaches the priesthood the way the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have, where the priest has authority to do all these things.

So what I was doing, I spent an hour or so on my Logos Bible program, going through the Catholic Catechism and looking at the word priest, and priestly, priesthood, and every single occurrence. It's about 250.

I'm about halfway through. What I'm trying to do is find out what the Catechism, the official documentation of the Catholic Church says are the duties of the priest. And halfway through, I found some very interesting stuff.

And the impression I'm getting is that their priesthood is still underneath the Old Testament style, not the New Testament one. And I'll be discussing that and working on that. And I'm also going to study the priesthood of Christ and what that means.

This is just my kind of a good time to study stuff like this.

I enjoy it.

I really do. It's kind of weird, huh? You know, when I was 19, 20, 21, I said, hey, you know what you're going to like doing when you're 60s? I said, you've got to be kidding me, I'm not going to do that.

But I enjoy it. And good stuff. So anyway, I'll be getting more information on that. I might field test some of the stuff I find tonight. I'll have to go on to chat rooms, I'll have to look for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and then start conversations with them.

And a lot of times there's pretty knowledgeable ones in there. And so what I'll do is I'll ask questions and say, what about this, what about that? And they don't know I'm taking notes. I always take notes, almost always.

I really enjoy it. For me, it's a good time. I know, I've got issues. Most guys, what they do is go fishing for entertainment or watch sports. And me, I'm like, let's go talk to Catholics. Let's go talk to Eastern Orthodox and research every occurrence of the word in the Greek New Testament.

They're like, man, you've got issues. And that is true. But nevertheless, hey, there you go. Let's get to Buskman from Dayton, Ohio. Buskman, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt, you are definitely a geek, my friend. Yes, I am. I am calling you out. You are one. But I've got to say this, Matt, you're an amazing geek. And I am glad you're on the radio for people to enjoy what you geek out about.

Because I know out here in Dayton, Ohio, we are very grateful for your scholarship, Matt. And I mean that with a true and sound and sober heart. Thank you, brother.

Well, for all of those who are listening to me out there in Ohio, I'm waving and just saying hi.

Praise God.

I've got some more geek stuff to talk about, some tech geek stuff I'm researching, too. But at any rate, so what do you got, buddy? What's up?

Biblical Church Discipline and Restoration After Moral Failure

Well, the last I talked to you, I had phone issues, Matt. But I wanted to get this out in front of you, brother, because it seems like just lately we've had some real issues. Dr. Tony Evans, Robert Morris, all having what's called moral failures, Matt, where they have to step down from their positions in their churches.

And I know both of these men have been very influential over the years. I remember Dr. Tony Evans many years ago, listened to him at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship and always enjoyed Pastor Evans' teachings.

So what I want to ask you about, Matt, is church discipline. In general terms, Matt, what is it biblically? Are we reproducing it correctly here in the 21st century? And should we do it to the past? Should we apply that to a pastor of a church, Matt?

Yes.

A pastor needs to be under discipline if necessary. So the procedures are laid out in Matthew 18. You go to the individual and you ask that individual about certain things. Is this true? Is it not true?

Whatever it is. And with witnesses and or you go to the elders of the church. And if there's an issue of sin. And not just who I took a paper clip from work, okay. You know, accidentally or whatever. You're struggling with a little bit of pride.

You know, you're just working on it. No, we're talking like adultery, pornography. We're looking at stuff that's just bad. So let's say these allegations are true. And let's say they are of a pastor. Well, then what should be done?

Then the elders, depending on the severity of what's going on. Like adultery, of course. Or having an emotional relationship with someone other than the wife. But someone else having problems with pornography.

Things like that. Then he needs to step down. He can't be pastor. Because the pastor and elder is supposed to be above reproach. And we're not absolutely requiring perfection. But we are requiring a certain level of propriety and sanctification.

Because the pastor is supposed to be above those things. And if he cannot be above those things. Then he needs to step down in the church. The elders need to institute that. And they need to then go to the church.

Depending on the situation and what the agreement is. To say what the sin was or maybe not. Just depending. Because you can't say this or that for every circumstance and every situation. But the elders would then need to say to the church.

The pastor is under discipline. And for a failure. The failure is in this category. And we'll be working with him in discipline and or whatever. Let's just say the pastor is repentant. Let's say he didn't get caught.

But he fessed up. That he acknowledged his sin. And no one knew about it except him and maybe a party or whatever. And he came forth. Well, now there's issues of can he be restored to the ministry. Well that's another issue.

That depends on circumstances and what's going on. But when someone generally brings it up themselves. That's a good thing. And depending I would say he might be open to holding the pulpit again. But it would just depend on a lot of variables.

So if he's repentant then he's welcome to go to the table and take communion. If he's unrepentant then he cannot go to the table and receive communion. There's a lot of variables in there. I'm just trying to speak generically at the same time.

Does that make sense?

It does Matt. And I'm glad you touched on that second part. Restoration. Ever since I saw what happened to Robert Morris and Tony Evans. I've really been examining the scriptures myself. And I came across 2 Corinthians chapter 2 Matt. 5 to 11.

2 Corinthians chapter 2 verses 5 to 11. And I believe, knowing you, you're geeking out right now Matt. That's why I love you. You're probably looking it up. I read it over. From what I understand Matt, this is a direction from the Apostle Paul to the Corinthian church.

After 1 Corinthians chapter 5 where there was a man sleeping with his dad's wife. And in the first letter he tells the church members to deliver him up to Satan. I believe that's how King James puts it.

Deliver him up to Satan that his soul might be saved and his sin nature destroyed. And so when he gets to the second letter Matt. There's this portion of his writing there in 2 Corinthians chapter 2 verses 5 to 11.

Where it looks like Matt, I mean as far as I understand it sir. He's now telling that same church that expelled him and delivered him up to Satan. To now receive him and even, I thought this was an amazing word Matt.

Comfort him. That he not be overcome in sorrow. For we know the works of the devil. And I thought wow. So in between those two letters Matt. It looks like there was a deliverance up to Satan. It could have been disciplinary.

It probably was something pretty harsh. The harshness then broke the sex offender if you will. To the point where he repented.

I don't know if it's the same person. We don't know if it's the same person.

We don't know for sure but it looks pretty similar. And I have checked some commentaries. And that's the majority. Matt seemed to believe that it's the same man. It kind of fits in scripture. Because when you think about it.

When a man has been delivered. Say he went to prison. And the prison sentence broke him. And the church watched him go to prison. Watched him be broken. Then comes out repentant. It seems like 2 Corinthians 5.

Or 2 verses 5 to 11.

Restoration right. But it doesn't fit with the pastor though. Yeah that's different with the pastor.

Okay.

Because he's supposed to have a good reputation with those outside the church. So they will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. So there's a higher standard for those who are in ministry.

And the pastor. If he were let's just say committed adultery. He's disqualified.

Period.

Done. That's it. He can't be a pastor again.

Does that mean no more pastoring of any kind of congregations in man?

Is that what that means?

He can't be a pastor. He was supposed to be a man above reproach. And he fell into incredibly great sin. And so can he be trusted? And the answer is well maybe, maybe not. But he must have a good reputation.

And he just destroyed his reputation. So he could no longer have that. Hey hold on we've got a break okay. Folks we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right everyone. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call 877 -207 -2276. All right. Let's get back on with Buck's Busk Button. You there?

I'm still here Matt.

Okay.

So I'm not sure where to kind of continue with that. Because we were going through a bunch of stuff. Oh yeah I remember now. The elder must be above reproach.

Yes.

You know there was an instance that happened in seminary. We got word of it. We had a discussion about it in class. There was a Presbyterian pastor who had become emotionally attached to a woman. He was working within the church.

Or a congregation member working with I'm not sure. Other than his wife. He brought it up. So what they did was they removed him. The Presbytery removed him from the pulpit. And urged him and worked with him to go through counseling.

And so I had respect for him. Because things like that can happen. And he brought it up. He regarded the pulpit and the sanctity of his own marriage in high regard. Brought it to the elders. And I think it was something about a two year discipline.

Discipline sounds so harsh. But it was a two year thing. He had to go through stuff for two years. Before they would re-engage the idea of him being back in the pulpit. And with him I think it's okay.

If he's gone through the counseling and everything's worked. The elders say it's okay. Then fine. Because that's different than he committed adultery. Now that's different. So then it's in the subjectivity about which is worse.

And it just takes a lot of elders discussions and training. So it's not easy to just simply answer really quickly.

Proverbs on Concealing Sin and Repeating a Matter

Yeah, I definitely do not want. I wouldn't want the spot of Tony Evans or Robert Morris's eldership. That's got to be very, as you say, very burdensome. Now I also found this other verse, Matt, that I thought was quite interesting along these lines.

And it's Proverbs chapter 17, verse 9. Proverbs 17, verse 9. And I remember in the NIV.

Let me read it so people can know. He who conceals a transgression seeks love, but he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.

Okay?

Right. So if love covers the pastor's sin or any Christian sin, Matt, I think it's interesting that Solomon wrote that second part to that verse that says repeating. That's what really stuck out to me, Matt.

Repeating the matter separates close friends. That is a relationship, it looks like, where, you know, if we repeated Robert Morris's or Tony Evans' downfall, are we not separating that man from all kinds of different relationships, whether it be his church, his family?

So how do you apply that, I guess? How would a Christian apply 17 .9?

Well, that's a proverb. And so it's not in the context of a church-disciplined church order in a pastoral epistle. So then what you have to do is the committee involved with such a disciplinary action, if this verse was brought up, it would have to have an analysis of it in its context to see how it might apply to the situation.

And so, you know, he who conceals a transgression seeks love. What does that mean? You have to examine that. And he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends. You know, if you can repeat sinful actions, it's going to cause relationship problems.

I think that's what's going on. Now, is that correct? And if it is correct, then how does it apply? Well, it's just a statement of the damage done. And so the issue of the elders is they need to be well-trained and well-grounded in Scripture, and so that they can lovingly administer discipline to the pastor or another elder or people in the church.

I have a saying that I like to live by. I'd rather err on the side of grace than law. So if a man, a pastor, has committed adultery, let's just say flat-out adultery, I'm sorry, he's disqualified. If a man is just struggling with an attraction to someone in the church that he shouldn't have, I get it.

We can have those kinds of things. It's okay, but what is he doing with it? How is he dealing with it? He's going to the elders. Look, I've got an issue. I want you to hold me accountable. Well, no problem.

Let's work with them and let's get grace in here. Not the woman, but be gracious. Get grace in here and live that way and work that way. That's how I would recommend it be tackled and have it be adapted to the particular individual situation and issues.

All right.

So if a leader, it could be a pastor. Let's say he did go all the way and commit full-blown adultery. The eldership brought him through like your friend that you were speaking of, two years of counseling, two years of intense intervention.

Let's just say, Matt, at the end of two years, two years and one day, according to what I'm hearing with your wisdom, he is not to return to his pulpit or any pulpit after that.

I can't say his or any because not two years to the day. I remember something about it was just a two-year thing they were going to do, and that's what the agreement was. And he stepped down. And after two years, they're going to revisit everything.

Okay. So then the elders would get together. The committee would get together. They would interview him and go through the procedures and see. Because if he's fully repentant and he's the one who exposed his own sin, then this is a man whose heart is before God.

He's recognized the problem, and he's trying to deal with it. We don't want to throw him under the bus.

Yeah, like Psalm 51, David, when he committed that atrocity against Bathsheba by killing Uriah the Hittite, he was restored. I remember Nathan said, Your sin is put away. You shall not die. And he was restored.

Now, there was a lot of payment, obviously, that David paid. He lost his baby on the eighth day. The very next chapter is Tamarah being raped by his son.

Or bring concepts up. But the thing I would say is the elders need to be involved with this. Records need to be kept. And a lot of discernment, love, patience needs to be worked. But there would probably be certain sins that we don't want to say, Oh, that's okay.

You committed adultery, and now you're okay after a year.

Get back in.

No, I can't see that.

Okay.

And getting back to the first, yeah, real quick, getting back to the first Corinthian passage, that's what Paul was getting on him, because the church was like celebrating this guy for sleeping with his dad's wife.

And I remember Paul rebuking those people saying, No, that's not what you do. Deliver him up to Satan, that his soul might be saved, and his sin nature destroyed. So once it's destroyed, I just wonder, that could happen today in even the past where his sin nature was destroyed and was restored back to him.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's like he's been killed.

God will take him out.

Okay.

That's what's going on there. All right. Now, physical death.

God bless, Matt.

Always appreciate your insight.

All right, man. God bless.

Hey, folks.

We'll be right back after these messages. We'll get to Carl and then Mike. And please stay tuned.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Apostasy, Denying Christ, and the Reality of False Conversion

All right, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. Let's get to Carl from Dayton, Ohio. Hey, Carl, welcome.

You're on the air.

Howdy. Can you hear me?

Yes, I can.

Yes, I can.

Okay, I'm just going to give you an observation of a person, and I just want you to give me a summary of this person, because it's an oddity to me. So I have a friend, very close friend, but I thought he was in the kingdom for, like, 20 years, taught Sunday school, and I thought he believed everything that I believed and you believed, and was being considered for two congregations of being a pastor.

But he kept showing me little indicators throughout the years. I just didn't want to believe it. So finally, I was upstairs at work, and somebody said, just ask him something, Joe. Now, I've known this guy for, like, 20 years, 20 years.

I know he's in the kingdom, but he kept giving me little indicators. So I just went downstairs. I said, tell me something. Do you believe in the deity of Christ? He says, no. I said, do you believe in the virgin birth?

He says, no. I said, do you believe in that you need Christ to be reconciled to God the Father? He says, no. So what I want you to tell me, just give me, and I'm going to let you go, just give me a brief summary of an apostate.

I've never met one. I've heard of them, but when you actually meet one and you really, really know that they're in the kingdom and they're not, they're just an oddity to me. I just don't get it.

Well, let's talk about it. But, no, he's not a Christian. He's a false convert. And you need to tell him he's a false convert. If he denies the deity of Christ, John 8, 24, Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

In John 8, 58, he says, before Abraham was, I am. They picked up stones to kill him. In John 10, 30 through 34, he says, I and the Father are one. They picked up stones again to throw at him. And he said, many good work, brother, I've shown you.

For which of these are you stoning me? And he said, for good work, we don't stone you, but for blasphemy, because you being a man, because you're about to be God. And so the deniers of Christ, he agrees with the deniers that he's not God in the flesh.

You just need to tell him flat out, and gently but appropriately, that he's not a true Christian and that he's under judgment and that if he dies now the way he is, he'll go to eternal damnation.

Okay, well, guess what I did. So towards the end of our phone call, I just said real casually, I said, you know, I said, now why don't you make that Hebrews 9, 27 trip? I said, you know it's no do-overs, right?

He says, I know. And I just casually said, you're lost, real casual. And he went O-F-F on me. He went off. He's always Mr. Cool, but I saw a side of him I've never seen before. He went off on me and more or less got hung up on me.

I thought that was weird. It was just weird to me.

It's normal because you called him out. You called him out on his sin and his denial, and you spoke the truth, and he reacted against it. It's not your fault.

It's his.

So, you know, you did what was right, and you need to tell him he's lost. See, again, it comes up. You say, if you died right now, you'd go to hell. You've denied what the Bible says. You need to repent.

You need to come to Christ. Trust in him.

So all these years, he's been a poser and a faker all these years because, like I said, he wanted to be the pastor of two churches. These are like Bible-believing churches.

Yep.

Fascinating. Have you ever met someone like that? Have you ever met anyone like that? Of course you have.

You know, I probably have. I've met so many people over the years and people with different stories and stuff. But I can't recall one off the top of my head to that degree, wanting to be a pastor and deny who Christ is.

But I'm not surprised by that. So, you know, you did what was right.

Do you understand you need to pray for someone like that?

Absolutely pray for him.

Okay, great. Okay. Okay. Okay. Because if he knew I was praying for him to come to repentance, you know, that God would grant him repentance. He's so arrogant. He'd probably say to me, well, why are you praying for me?

I don't need you to pray for me. I don't need that. Because he told me he didn't even talk about Christ anymore. That's what he told me.

So, yeah, he's just a false convert. He's demonically oppressed. He's denying the things of Scripture. And he has built a theological system around his own preferences. And you're pushing on that house of cards and doesn't like it.

So keep praying. And just do what you're doing, buddy.

Okay?

I sure will. Okay. Thank you, brother. Have a good evening.

You too, man. Let me know what happens, buddy. All right?

I sure will. Bye-bye.

All right.

God bless.

All right. Hey, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. Let's get to Mike from Durham, North Carolina. Mike, welcome here on the air.

Tithing, Firstfruits, and Christian Giving Under Grace

Hey, thanks, Matt. My question has to do with tithing. Me and my wife get paid basically every week. She gets paid. Today I get paid on Thursday. And we have been tithing when she gets paid for both of us.

And for whatever reason, I've been convicted or dwelling on the first fruits. And I'm like, I don't know, should we be setting aside a check? Because, you know, we won't go to church until Sunday. So if you get paid today, like how does first fruits work on a Tuesday?

You know, is it okay with what we're doing? And, like, how did that work back in the day? You know, if people worked all day and they got a ton of grain, did they get home? And it's like, oh, I've got to go move 10 of what I got today to, you know, the church or whomever.

Yeah, there you go.

So that's Old Testament where it was the law. You were obligated to do these things, give the first fruits of your work, your labor, first fruits of the cattle, of the agriculture. And we're no longer under the law.

You're not obligated to tithe at all.

Okay?

You're not obligated. So don't think you have to.

Okay.

Think of it this way. You're free to.

We don't mind to at all. In fact, we kind of enjoy seeing that every church is hurting a little bit and, you know, seeing that we can help out because we have been blessed over the last two years where many, many people in the United States have not been.

So we don't mind.

So I like to tell people you're free to be able to tithe and to give what you want and what you think is right before God. You take it to God. You and your wife, you decide what you're going to do and how much.

If you think 10 is what you should do, then do it. If you think 15, then do that. If you think a little bit less, then do that. So my wife and I, our preference is to help people. My personal preference is, you know, I don't mind tithing to the church, but I like to, you know, have a friend who needs help.

I'll get that for you. I'll do this for you. I'll do that for you. I like that because I can see direct help of people who need it. So there's just different ways because it's for the body of Christ and it's for the work of the ministry.

You're free to do it. You just have to decide what you're going to do, how much you're going to do, and how often.

Okay.

All right. Sounds good.

Okay.

And sometimes if you do a little and sometimes you do a lot, that's up to you. But don't feel guilt ridden and beat up because you didn't give 10%. But I do know a lot of people and they do that and they give 10%.

That's what they do.

Fine.

Praise God.

Okay.

That's fine.

Yeah.

I was just wondering the timing of it. I'm like, you know, does it really say, you know, give your first fruits? Like how did that work? How would that work today with scheduling? How did that work? Then, you know, do they take all their product to market and then get paid one day?

Do they stop at a synagogue on the way home? You know, just trying to figure it out.

Oh, well, if you're talking about net or gross or win, back in the Old Testament, I don't know exactly how it was done. But the general idea was that say you have 100 bushes of grain that you produced off of your land.

10 of it went to the needs to the Lord and the administration of it to the priesthood. That was the system that they had. And that's what they did. You know, that kind of a thing. And so you did that kind of thing.

If you didn't, you're in trouble with God. But we're not under that law anymore. We're not under that law. We're under grace. That's why I say you're not obligated to tithe. You're free to. And the pastor does need to live off of his work.

And you go to 1 Timothy 5 .17. And check this out. This is what's interesting. A lot of people don't know this.

It says,.

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. You shall not muzzle the ox while he's threshing, and the laborer is worthy of his wages.

Well, I read a commentary once where the person said they can make the case that the pastor gets double the money of others because don't muzzle the ox while he's threshing. The laborer is worthy of his wages.

Where did I get the double thing?

I'm trying to remember.

Oh yeah, double honor up in the first one. He said he could make the case. He could exegete it that way. Not that he would. So some say that the honor that the elders are due is an honor of support because it says he's worthy of his wages.

So we need to support the pastor through our giving, our tithing, and our offerings that are sometimes above that. And that's what we do as Christians.

Okay?

All right.

All right, man.

There you go.

All right. Well, thank you very much.

All right.

God bless.

Hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. When we get back, I'm going to talk about Andrew.

What was his name?

Oh, I'm going to find it. And then I'll tell you a little story about him. It's a good story. Anyway, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

George Mueller, Providence, and Trusting God for Ministry Support

All right. Welcome back to the show. We have nobody waiting. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276. All right. So we're talking about tithing. And I remember a story from George Mueller.

And he was called the Orphan King. And he worked in the 1800s in England. And he spoke a couple of Greek languages. And he developed some really interesting works, writings. And I read through an autobiography of him because I was really impressed with this guy, George Mueller.