Conflict Management in Church

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Well, good evening everyone, we're back in class tonight for the next to the last of our eight-week series on church life and ministry, and tonight is going to be on the subject of conflict in the local church.
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Conflict is never a subject that is fun to discuss, but it's also something that can be deadly to avoid discussing, so that's what we're going to talk about tonight.
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This is the agenda for the class, if you have your syllabus all I do is take this right out of the syllabus.
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Our agenda tonight is to recap the previous lesson and the reading assignment, then we're going to discuss the concept of conflict management, which is really sort of, it almost sounds like a corporate term.
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You probably, if you've ever worked in corporate America or in a small business or something where you had to work around other people, you may have had to take a class on conflict management.
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We're not really dealing with it from the world's perspective, but we are, okay yeah, so yeah, and we'll get there, but conflict management will be the first part of our lesson, then we're going to talk about church discipline, which is an extension of conflict management.
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We'll see how that is, because ultimately if it leads to, if a conflict goes into an area of sin, and that sin has to be dealt with, sometimes it has to go all the way to the process of discipline, and so that's why this is all going to be one thing.
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Then we're going to take our break, and after the break we will discuss discipline process and methods, because different churches do handle discipline differently, and we're going to talk about whether or not there is a biblical model, or whether churches have the freedom to sort of do it their own way, so we're going to talk about that after the break.
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So let's recap what we talked about last week.
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Last week we talked about hospitality at church and home, and what is the definition, biblical definition of hospitality, you remember, welcoming the stranger, loving the outsider, loving the stranger, very good Jackie.
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And then we talked about hospital and bereavement ministries, we talked about, I gave you guys some things to think about if you do hospital ministry, you go visit people, how to talk to people who are hurting.
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Then we talked about leading and counseling, marriages and funerals, and then we finally, we finalized last week's lesson, excuse me, last week's lesson by talking about felt needs.
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Well tonight, rather, excuse me, moving on, we're going to look at what we read in the book.
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Did everyone do their reading? I see some of this, I see some of this.
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I hope that you're reading the book, not just again because I wrote it, but because it really does, it fills in the gaps of the things that I'm not going to get to tonight.
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The chapter on discipline lays out for you what I would consider to be a, not only the biblical model of discipline, but the biblical purpose of discipline.
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If you read the chapter, it should have you ready for tonight's conversation.
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Is there anyone who has any questions about what was in the book? Not you this week.
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I slid.
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Huh? I slid.
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Okay.
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Well, yeah, well, like I said, if you did happen to miss the reading, I would encourage you to go back after the class because there will be some things that I don't necessarily get to in the class that you'll want to look at in the reading.
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All right.
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So let's go then directly into the subject of conflict management.
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The church is an assembly of sinners.
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We might say the church is also an assembly of saints because the Bible says that we are made holy through the blood of Jesus Christ.
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Therefore we are saints.
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However, at the same time, we still live in this body of sinful flesh.
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Therefore we are still subject to the battle that we fight with sin.
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So the church is an assembly of sinners.
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One of the things that you have to have as a prerequisite before you join a church is you have to be a sinner.
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There is no perfect church and there are no perfect people.
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Therefore the church is an assembly of sinners.
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And because of that, it's not without conflict.
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Conflict can happen in various ways and tonight I'm going to be sharing some of the experiences that I have had over the years.
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Not getting too far into the details, but just to point out every one of these that I have listed here, I have experienced.
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So this lesson is not only scholastic, it's experiential.
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I've gone through this.
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This isn't just something I've read in a book.
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Conflict can happen members with members.
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In fact, that is very common, that a member will get upset with a member and there will be issues that come up.
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Sometimes you just start noticing people quit talking to each other, people pass by each other without shaking hands.
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You start noticing conflict subversive and then it becomes more overt.
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You know? So conflict can happen members with members.
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Conflict can happen members with leadership.
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I have certainly had my fair share of this, where there were those who were unhappy with my, whether it was my preaching or my teaching or maybe something else that I was doing here at the church that they were not happy with.
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And so conflict with leaders, and I'm not the only leader obviously.
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We have other elders, we have deacons, we have ministry chair people, we have people who lead certain ministries within the church.
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And so those things can be, and honestly just think about it, I mean how easy is it to get upset with a person in charge? I mean it happens all the time.
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People, you know, I've been in situations where there was a ministry that we put somebody in charge of the ministry and not just like two weeks later, well I don't like the way they're leading it.
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You know, okay, well now there's a conflict that we have to deal with.
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And it's, somebody's wrong, you know, somebody, there's an issue somewhere that has to be dealt with.
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So member to member, member to leader.
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And then of course there is always the problem of leadership having issues with leaders.
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Leaders not agreeing and that becoming a major point of contention.
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Right now, you asked me what I was studying before class.
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Not only do I study, you know, but sometimes I'll listen to podcasts and stuff that are helpful.
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And one of the podcasts I listened to recently was a series of podcasts on the rise and fall of Mars Hill, which was the church that was started by Mark Driscoll out in Seattle.
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It was one of the largest churches in the United States at one point.
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It was a huge mega church and in the most unchurched area of the United States.
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You know, the Seattle area is the least amount of people that actually go to church and yet they had one of the biggest churches out there.
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And Mark Driscoll was famous, but then overnight it seemed like the whole church collapsed.
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He resigned, the church fell.
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I mean, I don't know, I haven't got to the part in the narrative because I'm listening to the podcast.
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I haven't got to the aftermath of what's happening now.
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But just the rise and fall of Mars Hill, I've been going through that.
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And a lot of it has to do with leadership conflict.
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Conflict with the guy in charge did not want to be questioned.
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Yeah, well in this sense the head was sick.
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The guy in charge was not doing what was right and he was not allowing people to question.
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He fired two elders.
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He didn't even have the power to do that, but he did it.
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Fired them, got rid of them because they were questioning his authority.
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I mean, there's a lot more to that story, but just an example of leadership, leader against leader, right? So we got members against members.
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We got members against leaders.
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We got leaders against leaders.
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And then there is conflict within families.
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So that I have had to counsel, I have had to counsel husbands and wives many times.
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Had to counsel parents and their children.
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And very difficult situations there.
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Sometimes it's the child who's being disobedient.
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Sometimes it's the parent who is being abusive.
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There's all these things that happen that you have to consider, you know? And do you get the legal authorities involved? Is it physical abuse? You know, there's all kinds of things that come in in that regard.
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So conflict management would include thinking about those things.
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And then there's the last one would be conflict with the world.
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People come in and say, pastor, I'm having trouble at work.
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All these unbelievers give me a hard time, whatever, whatever.
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How do I handle it? How do I manage it? Or as a church, the people getting upset with us, you know? I mean, we get, you know, people writing things, ugly things on our Facebook page.
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We get people, you know, like I said, I've received handwritten letters.
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People hate me.
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Okay, whatever.
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You know, this is, it doesn't happen a lot because I'm not very well known.
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But for some reason, the people who do know me, there's quite a constituency of those who don't like me.
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And so it happens, you know? So there's conflict all around.
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And as members of a church, or maybe one day as leaders within the church, you will have to deal with conflict in one way, shape, or form.
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Because you are a sinner, the people you go to church with are sinners.
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And as R.C.
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Sproul said, and it's the truth, if you ever find a perfect church, do not join it, cuz you will ruin it.
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There is no perfect church.
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You are not perfect, and therefore, there are times when conflict will arise.
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And that's the next thought.
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Knowing conflict will arise, and being ready for it is essential.
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Especially for those in leadership.
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Yes, Ross? Sure.
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Sometimes it's just getting low-key, staying the word.
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I mean, it's just, it's one of those things where it's just so much sometimes, and it's just so hard.
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Especially, you know, a lot of guys in set crew or construction, and we work those type of jobs, and it's like, just give me, I don't know.
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I know what you're asking, and I- It's not an answer.
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No, well, but I wanna say something about it.
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It's not necessarily an answer, but it's a thought.
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As a pastor, and I actually had this conversation with Brother Collier recently, because he and I are pretty candid with one another, and can open up and talk about our issues, not our issues with each other, but just issues of life and things, and he said, and we were talking about the fact that my position somewhat insulates me, because I spend 90% of my time with believers.
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Doesn't mean I don't have conflict, but I don't interact with the world as much as y'all.
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So, huh? It's a blessing, but it's also, it makes it difficult sometimes to be able to really sympathize.
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Not that I don't, I mean, obviously, I've worked in the secular realm for years.
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I was a substitute teacher for eight years, so I worked around unbelieving students.
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I worked around unbelieving teachers.
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I used to go to the break room when the teachers were all in the break room, and I was so amazed at some of the conversations they were having.
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They almost sounded worse than the kids as far as their level of just childishness and immaturity, and it was so sad to hear that and to see that, and know that these are the people teaching.
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So I'm not totally divorced from it, but it is a blessing.
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I'm not gonna lie, it is a blessing that I get somewhat insulated from the daily trouble of being in the world.
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And as the old adage is true, we in the world, but not of the world.
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I read something, what's interesting, I read something today that may be helpful.
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Cuz somebody said, I forget where I was reading it, but as I was studying, came across this, they said, a man went to his pastor.
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He said, the Bible tells me I'm supposed to be dead to the world, alive in Christ, dead to the world, but I don't get it, I don't get it.
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And the pastor said, okay, here's what I want you to do.
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He said, I want you to go to the graveyard, find my father's grave.
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He said, I want you to just, I want you to yell at my dad.
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Then, I want you to say nice things to my dad, and then come back.
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So the man went out, went to the grave, yelled at his dad, said nice things, came back, and he said, so what did he do? Well, nothing, he's dead.
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And he said, well, this is what the Bible means when it means dead to the world.
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That the world is sometimes going to applaud us, and sometimes the world's gonna attack us.
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But we can't be seeking the world's applause, or the world's attacks.
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Or fear the world's attacks, right? We can't fear the attack or seek the applause, because we're dead to the world and alive in Christ.
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So I don't know that that's super helpful, but when I read it, it made a lot of sense to me.
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That at the end of the day, I'm just passing through.
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I'm a pilgrim.
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This is not my home, yeah.
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So getting back to this, knowing conflict will arise is important.
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Jeff Lord wrote this.
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He said, wise leaders anticipate conflict.
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They know it has been a part of ministry leadership since the founding of the church.
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And here I give you some examples.
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These are kind of small, so you may have trouble seeing them.
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But consider these examples of conflict.
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Jesus addressed jealousy, pride, and even unbelief among his 12 closest apostles.
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Remember when the ones, their mother, can they sit at your right? You sit by your side in the kingdom, and the other apostles got upset.
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What is she doing, and what's going on? And there was jealousy, and there was pride, and bitterness.
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Yeah, there was all kinds of stuff.
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And that was in the 12th, and Jesus had to address that.
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Paul battled with the Judaizers in Galatia, who were false teachers.
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He said these men were accursed, he said, cuz they're teaching a false gospel.
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He called out Peter.
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Peter was an apostle, and Paul called him out publicly.
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Paul and Barnabas divided.
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Remember why they divided? Over John Mark.
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Yeah, it was because they had a worker that went with them, and he quit halfway through the trip.
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And the next time they go out, Barnabas wants to take him again, and Paul's like, I'm not taking that guy, he quit last time.
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I don't want him to go this time.
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So Barnabas and Paul divided, and Barnabas took John Mark.
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So it's interesting, there's a conflict, and there was a division as a result of the conflict.
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And the gospel spread even further.
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Yeah, I mean, the gospel is still able.
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But it's interesting to see that we don't get hidden from these conflicts.
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It's not like the Bible paints a rose-tinted glasses view of the apostles or the early church.
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That's where the growth comes from.
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Oftentimes.
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Yeah, growth does hurt.
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The Jerusalem council met to settle the conflict over fully accepting Gentiles into the church, that's Acts chapter 15.
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And the apostles chose the first deacons for what reason? To settle a conflict.
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That was happening between the Greek-speaking Jews, and the Hellenists, and the Hebrew Jews.
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There was a conflict there.
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So the Bible addresses over, and over, and over the concept of conflict, and it doesn't hide it from us.
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And several of Paul's letters specifically address conflicts.
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I'd like for you guys to open your Bibles.
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We're gonna look specifically at three examples that the Bible addresses.
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First one is in Philippians chapter four.
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I've been reading through Philippians with our kids.
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We do family worship at night, and we read through the Bible, and we were in Philippians.
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And I got to chapter four, and I came to this passage.
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I had to sort of explain what was going on, cuz this is what it says.
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It says, in verse two, I entreat Udiah, and I entreat Syneche, to agree in the Lord.
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Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers whose names are in the book of life.
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So one, he mentions two women by name.
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Interesting that, imagine your name's in the Bible, and this is how it got there.
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It was because the apostle Paul heard you were having a conflict.
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And so in his letter, which was inspired by God, included your name and the name of somebody else who you were at odds with.
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And Paul says, I entreat them to agree in the Lord, that they get over whatever this conflict is that they're dealing with.
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And it's just interesting, he's not saying either one of them are not believers.
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In fact, quite the opposite, they are believers, but they're still having conflict, and he's addressing them by name.
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The next one is 1 Corinthians chapter 10.
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I'm sorry, 1 Corinthians chapter 1, thank you, verse 10 says, I appeal to you brothers by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and of the same judgment, for it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
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So 1 Corinthians is actually written to Corinth because there was a group sent out from Chloe, who was this woman who was named, to tell Paul about this dispute.
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And we find out later that the dispute is over who has authority in the church.
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Some say I am Paul, some say I'm of Paulus, some say I'm of Peter, some say I'm of Christ, right? And there's that divide of authority, who are we of, and we see that.
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The last one is 2 Timothy chapter 4, and verses 9 to 15, this one's a little longer.
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1 Timothy chapter, I'm sorry, 2 Timothy, I said first, my bad.
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2 Timothy chapter 4, verse 9.
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Do your best to come to me soon, for Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica.
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Christians has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
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Luke alone is with me.
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Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is very useful to me for ministry.
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That's a powerful verse, because of what I just said a few minutes ago.
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Years earlier, Paul didn't want to work with Mark.
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So Barnabas, who his name means son of encouragement, he took John Mark and made him into a useful minister.
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He discipled him to the point that now at the end of Paul's life, because 2 Timothy's last book Paul wrote, at the end of his life he says, send to me Mark, he has been useful to me.
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That's a powerful change.
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But anyway, Tichias, I have sent to Ephesus, when you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books and above all the parchments.
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Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm.
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The Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
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Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message.
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So right there, in that one little paragraph, we have some positive, positive commendation of John Mark, positive commendation of Luke, but also he's pointing out guys who are causing problems.
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Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm.
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Demas is in love with this present world.
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So again, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
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There was conflict in the early church, and I have it up here.
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Can you all think of any others? Those were just ones that just happened to be ones that I thought were important to point out, end of Ephesians, what's, okay, bring a look at that.
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You got an address for me? 621.
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So that you also may know how I am and what I am doing.
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Tychius, the beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will tell you everything I have sent him to you for this very purpose.
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That you may know how we are, and that way he may encourage our hearts.
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Peace be to you, brothers, and love and faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Well, that is definitely a commendation.
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That's a positive, yep, good.
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Yes, sir.
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That's a great example, yeah, you got the, again, a conflict, right? The conflict is you've got, yeah, Onesimus who ran away.
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Paul is telling him to go back, and he writes him this letter to take with him.
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And I love, there's something Paul says in that one.
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I've never preached Philemon, but I've just thought of it so many times where he says, I could make you do this.
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I could command this, but instead I'm gonna appeal to you.
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And he said, I'm an apostle, I could tell you you're gonna do this, cuz I have that authority, but he doesn't exercise that authority.
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Rather, he appealed.
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It's because of him that he became to faith as well.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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So we have examples of conflict in the church, and here's something to recognize, important to recognize.
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Some conflict is based upon sin, but some is not.
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Some conflict is based upon preference.
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And turn in your Bibles to Romans 14, and I'm gonna prove what I just said, cuz I see some confused looks.
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Cuz you might say, well, isn't all conflict sinful? Not necessarily, depends on how you handle it.
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Don't be angry, don't sin, though.
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Right, that's right.
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But Romans 14 tells us that we can disagree about things that are secondary matters, and it doesn't have to be sinful.
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So let's look here at verse 1.
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It says, as for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
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Anybody got a different translation? Yeah.
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What does yours say? Except anyone who is weak in faith.
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Doubtful things, that's the thing, yeah.
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And that's the idea.
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These are things that are opinions, or they're doubtful things.
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These are things that are uncertain in the mind, and therefore, these are not things that should cause us severe conflict.
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Would those be secondary and tertiary issues? Yeah, I'm actually gonna introduce you to a new term in a moment called adiaphora, but we'll get there in a minute, but you're on the right track.
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But I do wanna read on to verse 9, cuz this way it says, one person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
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Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
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Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls, and he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
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One person esteems one day as better than the other, while another esteems all days alike.
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Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
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The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord.
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The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God.
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While the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
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For none of us lives to himself, none of us dies to himself.
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For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord.
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So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
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For to this end, Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
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That is Paul's admonition to the church to consider not everything a hill to die on.
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I know you've heard that phrase.
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Is this my hill to die on? Not everything is a hill to die on.
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I have had over the years opportunities to take real stands where, I mean, I wrote my own resignation letter in 2008 because there were people in this church that I thought were going to have me removed.
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Because of what I taught and believed in, in regard to the doctrines of predestination and election.
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They were upset with what I was teaching.
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And yet, I believed firmly that it was biblical, and that if I did not teach it, that I would be wrong.
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Because it's what the Bible teaches.
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So I took a stand.
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It was my hill on to die, but I went home and told my wife, I said, this will probably be the end of my ministry at what was then Forrest Christian Church.
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That's what this church used to be called.
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But God didn't let it happen.
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God allowed me to stay on, and I'm still here.
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And God has brought many changes to this church through a series of conflicts, but I would say a series of revival and growth.
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But it began with a major conflict.
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I mean, where I had to stand in the pulpit, I said, if you're gonna fire me, fire me, but if you keep me, this is the direction we're going.
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That's word for word what I said.
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I said, you hired me at 100% vote, and you can fire me.
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I said, but as long as I stay, this is the direction we're going.
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And by God's grace, I'm still here.
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But that kind of, that is, not every issue is a hill to die on.
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And this is the word I was talking about, adiaphora.
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Adiaphorism comes from the Greek word adiaphora, which means indifferent.
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In Christian theology, the opinion that certain doctrines or practices and morals or religion are matters of indifference, because they are neither commanded nor forbidden in the Bible.
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There are things that are neither commanded nor forbidden.
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Go back to Romans 14.
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We have the freedom to eat meat or not eat meat.
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I have heard people say, as a Christian, you shouldn't eat meat.
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And they have this, a lot of them have arguments, and they try to make biblical arguments to oppose the eating of meat.
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And I say, you're welcome to have that opinion, and you're welcome to remain a vegetarian.
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But I will not.
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I am not moved and convicted in that area.
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And I have the freedom, based upon the biblical testimony of several passages, not the least of which being Genesis chapter 9, where God opened the door for the eating of animals.
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And then in Acts chapter, I think, 11, where he opened the door to eat all animals.
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So now I'm able to have my pork sandwich and enjoy it.
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You know, so these are things that are, these are things the Bible allows me to do.
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But not everybody's conscience will allow them to do that.
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So if I'm inviting Jackie over, and I know Jackie doesn't eat pork, not that you don't, but I'm saying let's just say you didn't.
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Let's say Jackie was a person who only ate meat that was not considered unclean.
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And so she came to my house.
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I wouldn't put pork in front of her because that would be sinful for me to encourage her to violate her conscience.
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Because if her conscience says no pork, there's no pork for her, all right? And that's fine.
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And it would also be wrong of me to try to encourage her to have pork.
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But I know Jackie doesn't believe that.
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I saw her at Bono's before.
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I'm just kidding.
30:58
Okay, so here's another example, like music and worship.
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Musical choice is often a source of conflict within churches, especially churches of a multi-generational congregation.
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If you go to a church where everybody is in their 70s and 80s, then you'll notice the music is typically what the 70s and 80s people wanna hear.
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Or if you go to a church that's all 20 and 30s, you'll notice this music is typically what the 20s and 30s wanna hear.
31:30
But if you go to a church like ours, where we have literally people who are infants all the way up to 86 years old, I think is, well, I guess, is Jack our oldest member, or is Miss Mary McCrae? Miss Mary McCrae may be older than him.
31:45
But you got people in their 80s.
31:48
And so there is, and by God's grace, we don't have a huge dispute here, but it opens the door for a lot of dispute.
31:56
Well, I grew up singing songs out of the hymnal, or I grew up with these songs.
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I remember a guy one time, used to it was a bigger issue here, and there was a guy, I wanna know why we don't sing the old standards.
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And he like caught me by the back door.
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This was, I was probably two years in the ministry at this time, so it was like 2008-ish, and I wanna know why we don't sing the old standards.
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And I said, who standardized them? I'm pretty quick when I, but I said, who set the standard? By what standard? Who set the standard, you? Should I call you and ask you to choose the songs next week? Or you know what I mean? No, not necessarily.
32:39
You know what you mean, but this is a point that creates a lot of conflict.
32:49
I wanna give you a real life example.
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This is not one I made up.
32:52
I mean, I didn't make that up either, but this is an example.
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This is not me, but this is currently something that I read about that's happening at a local, not in this area, it's a church away from here.
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But it's a real life example.
33:08
There is a church where there is a woman who is visiting the church, and she's been visiting for several weeks.
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She has become disruptive in worship.
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What began as simply loud shouts of amen at inappropriate times, like in mid-sentence, she would just shout out, like the pastor would be in mid-sentence and she'd shout out amen, has eventually now turned to the shouting of expletives, curse words, and she's now even attempted to dialogue with the preacher as he's preaching, argue back with what he's saying, or have a conversation with him while he's preaching.
33:46
So how do you address that? I mean, is that adiaphora? Well, it has to be addressed, right? I mean, we're dealing with disorder in worship, and the Bible tells us that worship should be done decently and in order.
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And we have a person who is not a member, but is launching into tirades while the pastor preaches.
34:08
I mean, first of all, just for a minute, wow, it would be pretty amazing.
34:13
I've had people say stuff while I was preaching, but I've never had that kind of thing happen.
34:19
I did have one guy while I was preaching, I think you may remember this, Jackie.
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He literally, in the middle of my sermon, he goes, I don't understand a word you just said.
34:28
It was Jimmy Thompson.
34:30
Jimmy Thompson was sitting there with Don Lee.
34:32
Both of them have gone to be with the Lord now, but Jimmy Thompson and Don Lee were sitting near the front, and I'm preaching, and I'm giving an illustration that is not registering with either one of them.
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And so they start talking to each other, and then at some point, Jimmy just looks at me and goes, I don't understand a word you just said.
34:52
So I stopped, it stunned me, cuz it never had to happen.
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And I had to stop and sort of go back and explain what I was saying, but it was funny.
35:00
But I couldn't imagine somebody shouting out, R.C.
35:03
Sproul tells a story of when he's preaching that a guy yelled at him.
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He was preaching on the atonement, and a guy yelled out, that is primitive and obscene, and R.C.
35:13
responded, that's true, it is primitive and obscene.
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The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
35:21
It's primitive, it's obscene, obviously.
35:24
So, but those are examples, I mean, what do you think we do? What do you think, Ross? Do where he stood and- Yeah, well, you mean what would I do in this situation with this lady? I mean, if someone's doing that- I think this particular person, this particular story is an example of somebody who may have a little bit of a mental issue.
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So I would probably try to deal with this quietly after service.
36:00
I don't have a doubt that it would be- So you're gonna let her finish yelling at him and he's- Let me clarify, cuz that's a good question.
36:11
If she started yelling curse words, I would trust the deacons or the elders to go and ask her to come out and have a conversation.
36:18
Good job for the deacons.
36:19
Yeah, it would certainly be, other elders or the deacons would get involved.
36:24
But- Are they bouncers? Yeah, they're the church bouncers.
36:27
Yeah, who had their hand up? I saw a hand go up.
36:31
Ross, of course.
36:31
No, go ahead.
36:32
I thought I'd know for- Yeah.
36:34
So give me an example of when it would be okay.
36:37
So for instance, when Paul opposes Peter, right? And they're eating with the Jews, does that make sense? Mm-hm.
36:45
And Galatians, they're eating with the Jews, and Peter goes this way because the Jews had whatever, and he rebuked him in front of everybody.
36:54
Yep.
36:54
Right, he rebuked him, because I guess is the right words.
36:59
To show the people this is not what we're gonna be doing.
37:03
Does that make sense? Yeah.
37:04
What would be an example of something that drastic, you would, to lead a congregation in this way, and you know what I'm saying, does that make sense, what I'm trying to ask? I do get what you're saying, I'm having a hard time thinking of an example where I've not had to do that publicly like that before.
37:23
I have had several times where I have had to reprimand people behind closed doors or in a small group.
37:34
But I have not had to call, I can't think of having to call anyone out publicly yet.
37:39
I mean, hopefully it won't, it's not something I look forward to.
37:43
That's a big deal.
37:43
Yeah, but there was a time when my predecessor, the pastor who was here before me, he and I disagreed very much on women elders.
37:55
And there was a woman elder who was here with him.
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And we were writing a constitution for the church and I was the associate pastor.
38:08
And during the meetings leading up to the final vote, we all had agreed, all of us who were putting it together, that we were no longer going to allow women elders because it's what the Bible taught.
38:21
And at the ninth hour, at the last minute, he reneged.
38:27
And his office used to be right where you're sitting, because this used to be four classrooms.
38:32
And I went into that office and had a very stern, difficult conversation with him.
38:38
Because it was the biblical, he had turned away from the biblical position.
38:44
Yeah, so, but I did not call him out publicly, even though I really wanted to.
38:49
I, to be honest, I did.
38:51
I wanted to just, because when he basically turned his position before the whole church, I just, like, I mean, it was to me a sad moment.
39:05
And it did anger me.
39:07
And I had to keep my flesh at bay, because it was so frustrating.
39:15
No, like I said, the thing is, having done this for such a long time, and when I say such, I know there are guys 30, 40 years, I'm 15 years in, 16 years in to preaching full time, and I've seen a lot.
39:30
I'm sure I'm gonna see a lot more, unless the Lord takes me soon.
39:33
You know, so, but yeah, I mean, I could tell a lot of stories.
39:37
But public rebuke is not something I can, if I think of something as I'm talking, I'll mention it.
39:47
All right, here is, here are, going back to Jeff Lord.
39:53
Jeff Lord wrote an article on this for Lifeway Research, and these are five principles for managing ministry conflicts that he gives.
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I think they're helpful, so I wanted to share them with you.
40:03
Number one, anticipate conflict.
40:05
That's what we've been talking about this whole night.
40:06
There's gonna be conflict.
40:08
We don't need to look at the ministry with rose colored glasses.
40:10
If you think that going into ministry or being in ministry is going to be easy, then you do not understand what you're getting yourself into.
40:18
When Charles Spurgeon would have a man come to him and ask, should I be a preacher, he would say, if you can do anything else, do it.
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If you can be satisfied doing anything else, do it.
40:33
It just requires a calling from God and the grace of God to make it through.
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Cuz there's gonna be conflict, and it's gonna be hard.
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There's gonna be many nights that you will have broken hearts and teary eyes, tear-filled eyes.
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Second thing, address conflict intentionally.
40:51
Do not avoid confrontation.
40:53
I will say this, that has probably been one of the most difficult things, not just for me, but for most of the people I talk to in ministry, is nobody likes to get into a fight, nobody likes to argue.
41:04
And so the idea of getting into the conflict intentionally is sometimes hard, but we need to, because if we don't, we let it stir and stew, and then it gets worse, if we would have just addressed it in the beginning.
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Number three, resolve conflict appropriately.
41:24
Reach the best decision possible.
41:28
And this goes with the next one, accept mixed outcomes.
41:31
Not everybody's gonna be happy with what you decide.
41:34
But you have to try to make the best decision, yes.
41:42
Yeah.
41:45
So if it's been addressed, and it's just an ongoing thing, every time that you get y'all to sit down and try to address it, and it ends up in the wrong direction, I mean, at what point do you, is there a point where you step back and you still do our duties? But we kinda- It's hard because I don't know, I'm sure you're thinking of a particular situation, and you certainly wouldn't wanna talk about it right now.
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It's hard for me to give advice with a generic situation like that.
42:20
Typically, what I remind people is that there is a certain duty to submit to the leadership if they've made a decision, even if it's a decision you don't like, because they're gonna answer to God for whatever decisions they make.
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So first and foremost, we are called to submit to the leaders, Hebrews 13, very clearly, submit to the elders, whoever.
42:43
So that doesn't mean they're always right, but it does mean that they're gonna give an account for that.
42:48
It says they should also be able to serve joyfully, and not always have to worry that you're gonna be upset.
42:54
I'm not saying you are, I'm saying this is, as I said, that's going back to number four, there's going to be, at the end of the day, if a decision has to be made, typically, if there was a conflict, somebody's in the wrong, or somebody's at least going to be not getting what they want.
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For instance, go back to the music thing, right? If I said, from now on, we're only singing praise choruses, well, that's gonna upset half the people.
43:19
Or if I said, from now on, we're only gonna sing hymns, well, then there'd be other people who were, and it really doesn't matter.
43:24
What matters is what glorifies God, and that's what we should be concerned about.
43:30
But being able to accept a mixed outcome is important, understanding that not everybody's always gonna be happy.
43:37
And sometimes it leads to having to go somewhere else.
43:41
And I'm gonna talk more about that in a minute.
43:43
That's never the goal, but sometimes division happens.
43:49
I've been looking at what definitions of dissension come down.
44:02
Worse than a calf after Moses who was gone 40 days on the mountain, you know what I mean? And God made him break the tablets up and drink it, and slaughtered the other half, I mean, doesn't it? Aaron that said, when he asked him, what about the calf? He's like, well, they just- I put my gold in there, and this calf came out.
44:21
Yeah, I love that.
44:23
This calf came out.
44:24
Just one minute it was there, and that conflict right there, half the congregation had to turn on the other half.
44:34
Praise the Lord.
44:36
So the last one here is important.
44:37
The last one is move on.
44:39
There does come a point where we just have to move on, even if we didn't like the decision, as long as it's not something that we can live with, we move on.
44:46
We don't live in the past.
44:48
If it's not, you know, again, so many things are in my mind that I could tell you stories, but then I'm like, I shouldn't tell that story because it's a, you know, I don't want to put out too much personal stuff, but there's so many times where a decision had to be made.
45:02
We made the decision.
45:03
How do you repeatedly over and over and over make those decisions? In prayer, in supplication, and sometimes in tears.
45:13
It is tough to have to tell somebody, I think you're wrong, and I disagree with you, and we're going a different direction.
45:21
But that is sometimes what has to be said.
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And it's toughest when that person fully believes they are right.
45:36
It's something in between being able to navigate this.
45:41
I mean, this makes so much sense, but being able to navigate this part between addressing conflict intentionally and resolving conflict appropriately.
45:52
What's difficult is trying to do it.
45:59
The natural thing is to somehow fit in that diplomacy that doesn't compromise the word and the gospel.
46:07
And that's very hard.
46:09
And that's hard.
46:10
Yeah.
46:10
If the, because, it is.
46:15
And getting back to the other thing, going back to Adiaphora, there are certain things that aren't necessarily addressed in scripture, like who's supposed to be in charge of the property committee, if you have a property committee.
46:29
Well, this guy thinks that tree ought to come down, and this guy thinks it shouldn't.
46:33
And you say, well, who in the world would conflict about that? Everybody conflicts about something, and you may think that that's meaningless.
46:41
But if your job was to take care of these grounds, and somebody comes in and wants to argue about it, now we have a conflict.
46:48
And you may not think it's that big of a deal, but if that was the ministry that you've committed to the church, it might be a big deal to you.
46:58
So that's where it is tough.
47:01
A sad result of conflicts is sometimes division.
47:06
And division means people leave the church.
47:09
While it's never something to be desired, we should always seek reconciliation.
47:13
Sometimes a purging of disgruntled individuals who are always a source of conflict can be necessary for the overall spiritual health of the church.
47:21
Sometimes the Lord multiplies by first dividing.
47:25
Sometimes multiplication comes from division.
47:30
And you say, I hate that.
47:32
I hate the idea.
47:33
We should always be of one mind.
47:34
1 Corinthians tells us we should always be unified.
47:38
Well, but the same book in the chapter 11 says there's going to be divisions among you, because divisions show who is genuine.
47:51
Brother Andy gave this illustration last night, but I actually had this in my notes way before that, because I've heard him give this illustration before.
47:59
Brother Andy loves this illustration, and I'm beginning to, it makes perfect sense to me.
48:04
Because the example is a boat.
48:07
If you think of the church like a rowboat, you have some people who are rowing, they get in and they row in the same direction, and you're all going, you're rowing together.
48:16
Then you have some people who just want to sit there and let everybody else row.
48:20
And that's what we call the 80-20 problem.
48:23
And most, and it's not just churches, most every group, 20% of the people do 80% of the work.
48:29
It's just the reality.
48:32
The 80-20 problem, so you've got 20% of the people doing 80% of the rowing, but then you've got a group of people who want to row in the other direction.
48:40
You've got a group of people who get their oar and they start going the other way.
48:43
And you get enough people doing that and you're not going forward anymore.
48:46
Now you're going in circles.
48:49
So what do you do? At a certain point, you have to deal with that conflict because you can't all be rowing in different directions.
49:00
Here's a few more scriptures to look at.
49:02
Let's go to Proverbs 6.
49:12
Proverbs chapter 6, verse 16.
49:22
I'm in the Psalms, sorry, sorry.
49:24
Starts with a P, threw me off.
49:28
I said I was in the Psalms.
49:30
I said start it with a P, it threw me off.
49:32
Proverbs chapter 6, verse 16 through 19, it says this.
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There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him.
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Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devised wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
50:02
So here's the thing, the warning to the idea of sowing division.
50:06
Because I will tell you, talking about those people who row the other direction, there are people who I firmly believe their heart's greatest desire is to create division within churches.
50:20
I've seen them.
50:21
They come in, they sneak past all of the notice until they embed themselves in the body, and then they begin to agitate from within until they start dividing people.
50:40
You say that sounds crazy.
50:42
No, no, no.
50:42
I know some people that that's like their whole life.
50:45
They go from church to church, they're like frogs hopping from lily pad to lily pad, going from church to church, and they just stir up trouble wherever they go.
50:57
And again, I talk to other preachers, so we know it's coming.
51:01
Hey, this guy's coming to you next.
51:05
I made a phone call recently.
51:07
Said, hey, there's a guy who's coming to your church.
51:09
He's probably going to be a problem.
51:12
Now, you may think that that's gossip.
51:14
Was not gossip.
51:16
I simply said, I said, just like Alexander the Coppersmith did me great harm.
51:21
This guy is, when he comes in, he's a danger.
51:26
Be mindful of this man.
51:31
One who sows discord among the brethren is one of the things God hates.
51:35
Romans chapter 16, 17 and 18.
51:53
I appeal to you brothers to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught.
52:00
Avoid them, for such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites.
52:05
And by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the hearts of the naive.
52:09
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
52:12
People who come in, oftentimes they're shooting for the position of authority.
52:16
They're shooting to be in leadership.
52:18
Why? Because they're trying to create a following for themselves and divide the church so that they can have a following for themselves.
52:26
Or to get the church to leave the allegiance to whatever leaders are in leadership so that they'll follow them.
52:33
And they become a division, a divider.
52:36
Last one, Titus three.
52:38
And I want you to notice something about Titus three.
52:40
This passage is actually very important.
52:45
All passages are important in regard to this conversation because notice what it says in Titus three, verse nine.
52:54
It says, but avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions and quarreling about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
53:03
Ask for a person who stirs up division after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him.
53:10
Knowing that such a person is warped and sinful, he is self condemned.
53:17
I've used this passage in regard to an issue.
53:20
Going back to when I told you the story earlier about how there was a group here trying to have me fired.
53:25
There was one man within that group who was sort of the ringleader.
53:28
He had private meetings in his home to try to have me removed.
53:35
And finally, he decided to depart himself.
53:41
And he did so with a great bluster of explosion when he left, shouting as he went.
53:52
He was an example of this passage right here.
53:55
He was one who sought to stir up division.
53:58
And he had been warned several times because I knew it was happening.
54:01
I said, you need to be careful.
54:03
You are dividing God's people.
54:07
At this point, go, leave.
54:12
Not you.
54:12
I was like, that's what you gotta, you gotta go.
54:15
You can't stay if that's who you are.
54:17
You can't be the divider.
54:18
You gotta go.
54:20
All right.
54:22
So now we're gonna look, we don't have a lot of time left before our break, but now we're gonna see when does it become a disciplinary issue? Because we just were looking at the sowing of division.
54:35
Well, now, when sin in the camp, when sin is in the camp, a process of discipline is given to us in scripture.
54:43
We're not gonna read Matthew 18.
54:45
This is why I said reading the chapter in the book because in the chapter in the book, I go through this.
54:49
But Matthew 18 is where Jesus gives the example of church discipline.
54:53
When would church discipline be necessary? When sin is involved and when there is a refusal to repent.
55:02
That's when church discipline is necessary.
55:06
Like I said, not all conflict is based on sin.
55:09
Some of it's based on preference.
55:10
And if there's two people who have two different preferences at the end of the day, one of them's gonna be unhappy.
55:17
Or maybe there's a way to diplomatically, as you said earlier, brother, maybe there'll be a way to use some form of diplomacy to satisfy both when it's a preference issue.
55:29
But when it's an issue of sin, sin has to be addressed as sin.
55:34
And Jesus gives us four, he outlines four steps.
55:42
The first is private rebuke.
55:44
He said, if a brother sins against you, go to him privately, tell him his sin.
55:48
If he repents, you have restored your brother.
55:51
It's over.
55:54
Yeah, but let's just stop the first one.
55:57
It's a private rebuke.
56:00
Why? Because there's no need to make it a public issue when it can be satisfied with a simple conversation.
56:09
Your brother sins against you, you go to him privately.
56:11
If he repents, it's over.
56:13
You don't talk about it anymore.
56:14
It's not a, you don't get to go and share it with everybody else.
56:17
In fact, if you do, now you're sinning.
56:21
Yeah, you go to that person and it's a private rebuke.
56:28
Then it's a private rebuke of witnesses.
56:31
I talked about this last night because I've decided, interestingly enough, this is where we are in our confession.
56:36
And I said, why does there need to be two witnesses? Primarily because you might be wrong.
56:42
You might be the one wrong.
56:45
That's right.
56:46
You go, let's say I think that you've sinned against me.
56:49
I go to you and you say, I didn't sin against you.
56:51
And I say, yes, you did.
56:52
So I go get these two fellas and I say, hey, he sinned against me.
56:55
And you guys look at the situation.
56:56
You say, Pastor Keith, you're wrong.
56:59
Well, now I got to consider the fact that not only does he say he didn't do it, you guys say he didn't do it.
57:06
You understand what I'm saying? So now I've got to consider the fact that I might be wrong.
57:10
But let's say I go to you and you say, I haven't sinned.
57:14
And I go to them and I say, do we see what's happening here? Yes, now we all three go to you.
57:20
So now you've got to deal with not just me, but with all of us who are speaking into your life, who are supposed to be brothers in Christ, saying, brother, you're in sin, you need to repent.
57:28
So that's the, still private though.
57:32
It's still private, even though there's the three, the two or more witnesses, it's still a private matter.
57:37
Nobody, this is not put in the bulletin.
57:40
This is not put on the church overheads.
57:43
This is just between the people involved.
57:46
If he repents, you have won your brother, it's over.
57:50
That's it, doesn't need to go any further.
57:54
The third step is a public rebuke before the church.
57:59
Escalates quickly.
58:01
Yeah, it's like, man, that escalated quickly.
58:03
Yes, it can.
58:05
Because if we have brought the witnesses and this person has refused to repent.
58:08
Now I have pointed this out because I've taught on this so many times and we've in our church had to go through this process before.
58:14
This doesn't happen overnight.
58:17
It's not as if I go to you at three o'clock, on a Saturday and you didn't satisfy me.
58:21
So I go get them and we're back at 4.30.
58:23
And now it's Sunday morning, we're taking you before the church.
58:27
That's not, that's not.
58:29
It can be months of counseling and trying to talk to this brother and trying to address the issue.
58:35
It doesn't have to be right away.
58:37
It's just there are steps, right? And that second step with the witnesses, usually that I would say this, it doesn't have to be elders.
58:46
But at that point, it would probably be best if the elders were involved because they are his spiritual shepherds.
58:52
So they should be seeking to minister to him if he is in sin.
58:56
And I can keep pointing at you.
58:58
But you understand, whoever it be, whoever those two or three are, it could take a while.
59:05
And we're gonna try and talk to this brother.
59:07
Hey, would you meet with us once a week to talk about this for the next three weeks? You know what I'm saying? That would be a way that we might do it.
59:14
We were not gonna automatically make this public.
59:17
You understand? Because it gives us the steps, but it doesn't give us a timetable.
59:22
Because here's the thing about it.
59:24
The third step, brought before the church, that doesn't automatically mean the fourth step happens.
59:29
The fourth step is what? Excommunication.
59:31
No, just because somebody's brought before the church doesn't mean they automatically get excommunicated.
59:36
Because now the church has to look at it.
59:39
And the church has to respond.
59:42
And agree, that's correct.
59:43
Yeah, because the Bible doesn't give the pastor the right to excommunicate.
59:48
Or any body within the church, but the whole body is the one that excommunicates.
59:55
So we might bring a person before the church and say, this is the situation they're in.
59:59
We need to be praying for this person.
01:00:00
And in the meantime, if they repent, we're gonna receive them back.
01:00:03
We're gonna love them.
01:00:04
We're gonna restore them.
01:00:06
But between now and then, we need to be praying because this is the last step before they're removed.
01:00:13
You see? That's how that would go.
01:00:15
So, I wrote this in the book.
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One thing all churches which practice discipline need to realize is that just because there is a clear biblical pattern does not mean it will be easy.
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In fact, there will be nothing harder than performing this if and when it ever comes time.
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The church may be threatened with media disapproval, public gossip, and even lawsuits.
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In this modern time, there is nothing more volatile than a sinner who has been called out and refuses to repent.
01:00:49
I told the story last night.
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There was a church here in Jacksonville that exercised discipline on a lady.
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They excommunicated her, and it ended up on Fox News, national news, because she sued the church for defamation of character.
01:01:05
Yep.
01:01:08
So it happens, and that's why I put that in the book.
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So, last thing before the break.
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Church discipline has two purposes.
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First, the restoration of the sinner.
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Second, the protection of the church.
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A person who is allowed to be in the church and be in sin without any type of address is like cancer in the body.
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They're simply eating it from the inside.
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Has to be addressed for the protection of the body and for the restoration of the person.
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So that is the reason for discipline.
01:01:46
After we finish our break, we'll talk about more of the method, because we're gonna get into the weeds about, well, what if this and what if that? So let's take our break.