Laborers' Podcast- God's Grace in Death

So teach us to number our days that we may apply our hearts into wisdom, Psalm 90 verse 12. Welcome to the Laborers Podcast. We are thankful and grateful that you are with us. Tonight we're going to be talking about a difficult, sensitive subject, God's graces during death.

We hope you will stick with us. Welcome to.

The Laborers Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. Again, welcome to the.

Laborers Podcast. I'm Rob. I have with me Tyler tonight, Jay, Big John, and Claude. Guys, how are you doing? Good. Good, hope you are. I'm doing good. Tyler? But as good as we're.

Gonna be talking about death, so. I hope I didn't mess up something on the stream, Rob. I see there's an X. I was throwing my stream up here and something kicked out.

Yeah, I got the same one. Apparently I don't have Twitter premium, so. Yeah, yeah. Did Twitter do something to us? Is it called Twitter still? Well, I call it Twitter because I'm, deep down, I'm a grumpy fundie.

Twitter X is what I say. Twitter X. By the way, Rob, that was a good new version of the intro. That group picture there, just since April. Look how Jay's beard has developed and become so full and nice.

The word is distinguished. Look at that thing.

Is there a permit necessary in Florida to be wearing that thing? I just, you know, I think I'm just.

At the point where like, who cares, you know? Look at this. There will be heat no matter what, so.

Exactly. I'm talking about the multicolored brandishing across your lower chin.

That is just my wisdom, man. I feel it. I'm wise beyond the years.

The color's nice. I felt that. Well, just to remind everybody, the comment line is open. We would love to hear from you. Give us a critique, a prayer request, a question, whatever it is, we'd love to hear from you as we dive into this topic.

Grace Is Sufficient in Weakness

So the way I wanted to start and kind of go through the beginning of this conversation is take a look at some verses and let's discuss these verses as it applies to God's graces when it's, when he calls us, when it's our time in his timetable throughout history, when our time on earth is finished.

So the first one that we want to look at is 2 Corinthians chapter 12 verses 9 through 10. God's word says, And he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Therefore, I delight in weaknesses, in insults and distresses and persecutions and difficulties in behalf of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong. How would you apply those verses to our topic tonight?

Well, you know, speaking from experience,.

I know that the times that I depend on God the most is where I'm forced to depend on God the most, right? And so in my moments of greatest weakness, in the moments where I am, where I, where actually, where the fullness of my weakness is exposed, that's when I cry out to the Lord the most.

And in those moments, that's where I sometimes feel the greatest peace, right? And the greatest joy, even though from a human, natural perspective, it should be quite the opposite, right? Like you're going through this tough thing, dude, how can you be joyful?

I'm not always joyful, I'll be honest with you, not always joyful in those moments, because, you know, we are battling against the flesh, right? And so we're called to walk according to the spirit, not according to the flesh.

But in those moments of clarity, where I know the flesh is of no use, right? I need to depend on the spirit. That's where I can feel the joy of the Lord and the peace of the Lord, in spite of whatever external circumstances are going on.

And I think that's ultimately what this text is talking about, right? Because His grace is shown to be sufficient, right? His power, His power is perfected in our weaknesses, it's when it just radiates the most.

So that's how I would take that passage, man. Like I think of this passage often, when I'm going through struggle, praise the Lord, I actually haven't had too many struggles lately. I mean, you know, you have your everyday things, but at the same time, ironically enough, even though I can say praise the Lord for that, at the same time, I'm like, Lord, I miss those times when I feel closest to you, when I'm going through struggle, you know.

What I mean? One of the things that I think about is when you read scriptures like this, obviously Paul's dealing with something and it is recognizable by him that it was his own thing. Paul had a lot of reasons, he chose not to be arrogant, but he had to be arrogant in like his lineage or his knowledge base or this matter.

And in fact, God used him in an area where all of his strengths weren't going to help him a bit. And I think about that a lot because like you, brother Jay, I think of this scripture all the time. I'm a terrible reader and I don't do good all that much speaking in public, I still don't like it.

If I were to take one of my strengths and use it for the kingdom of God, I can imagine, you know, I'm a whole lot more mechanically minded than I am anything else. And surely there was somewhere that I should be used in that capacity.

But it seems as if though God's chosen the areas that I'm my weakest in to choose to allow me to minister. And in that, I need him because I can't. I just can't do it. So in my weakness, I feel that God's strength is perfected.

In that area, if that makes any sense at all. There is a monastery in Eastern Europe on Mount Athos. I have no idea where that is. And above the door is a phrase carved into the wall. It's probably in Latin because they're like really smart over there.

It says, if you die before you die, you won't die when you die. Essentially, if you grapple with the fact that you will die before you get there and die to yourself, then you won't truly die when your body takes its last breath.

Centro Sante.

Translation?

That's Anderson.

Oh, I thought that was obvious. I wasn't going to. Nick John is connecting with his Puerto Rican roots.

Yeah, that's right. That's about as much as I've got, brother.

Kind of related to what you guys are talking about, what Tyler just mentioned, I got this booklet, A Believer's Last Day. A Believer's Last Day, His Best Day by Thomas Brooks. You can get it at Chapel Library.

All their stuff is, I think now there's a $20 limit each month. So you can get a $20 worth of free material each month from these guys. And it's great stuff. But one of the things that he talks about here is kind of what you were talking about, Tyler, preparedness.

If you prepare for that day, then you will be ready for that day. And I see this in this verse, but it's calling for us to do something that's very difficult. And I'd like to hear you guys' insights on it, where it says, therefore, I delight in weakness and insults and distress and persecutions and difficulties.

Kind of flesh.

That out. Well, in the greater scope of the passage here, we're talking about suffering. Interesting enough is the section before this, we're talking a little bit about paradise. We're talking about heaven.

And he goes straight from that to not boasting in his strength because he has weaknesses. Therefore, I will take joy in this. And I think those two are put together for a very specific reason, that we go from the heights to the depths and the God who is there in both of them.

And Paul says that he was given a thorn in his flesh or a couple of varying ideas as to what that was. But essentially, it's something that kept him humble, something that reminded him of how weak he was, something that reminded him just how dependent he was on God's provision.

That ever-famous sermon to Christ, blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who realize just how weak they are, how bankrupt they are. There is a blessing in recognizing what we do not have.

And so when we talk about weakness, when we talk about taking joy in weakness, that's really what it shapes up into, is that we don't have strength of our own. And this is just a reminder that teaches us to trust Christ more.

And through all of that, the Apostle.

Paul, this passage is not a rare statement. Paul talks about this continually throughout the epistles, but again, in 2 Corinthians 11, beginning in verse 16. So Paul says, I say again, let no man think me a fool if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I might boast myself a little.

He said, that which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence boast thou. So he says that, but he says this, seeing that many glory after the flesh, because he's addressing the super apostles that were coming in and trying to make themselves to be something that they weren't.

And again, it comes down to what God makes a man. And he says this, you suffer fools gladly, seeing yourselves as wise. Let me switch to ESV real quick. Sorry about that. Or he said, for you gladly bear with fools being wise yourselves.

For you bear, you bear it if someone makes slaves of you or devours you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or strikes you in the face. He said, to my shame, I must say we were too weak for that.

So he goes, goes right into his weakness again. And he says, whatever anyone else dares to boast of. And he says, he qualifies it. He said, I'm speaking as a fool. I also dare to boast of that. Are they Hebrews?

So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. Then he says this, are they servants of Jesus Christ? I'm a better one. I'm talking like a madman with far greater labors, far more imprisonments with countless beatings and often near death.

He said, five times I received at the hands of the Jews, 40 lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. A night and a day I was adrift at sea on frequent journeys and dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my own people, danger from the Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at the sea, danger from false brothers, and toil and hardship through many a sleepless night in hunger and thirst, often without food and cold and exposure.

And apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak? I'm not weak. Who is made to fall? And I am not indignant. If I must boast, I will boast of the things, Paul said, that show my weakness.

That's me, the God and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. He who is blessed forever knows that I'm not lying. At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas was guarding the city of Damascus in order to seize me.

But I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped, right? Escaped his hands. But Paul makes this statement continuously that if you're going to boast in anything, boast in your weakness, boast in the fact that you are not strong, that you are, again, going back to 1 Corinthians chapter 1, it's not the wise.

God has not chosen the wise of this world, right? But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. That's right. And the weak things of the world to confound the strong. And he goes through that.

And it's like, it's like he's laying, well, he is, it's not like, it's he is laying the groundwork and the foundation of both of his letters to the Corinthians that the central focus is not to be on the wisdom of yourself, but on the wisdom and the righteousness and the sanctification and the redemption that is found in Jesus Christ and him alone.

That's right. And the same goes leading into death, right? Because death is the most feared thing of all. So, and again, if you go to Hebrews, Hebrews 9, 27, you may, any of y 'all know what that says right off the top of.

Your head? It is appointed unto all men to die once and then come to judgment. Right. Death,.

Death is a route. Death is there's right. That the American saying is this, there are two sure things in life, death and taxes, right? But more sure than taxes, because taxes can be evaded, but you cannot, nor will you ever evade death.

And so this, this leads back into, if you again, go on backwards now in Hebrews to Hebrews chapter two, this is the gospel because death is what the death is. The most feared thing in life, right? I mean, I'm afraid of dogs, but guess what?

But I, I fear, I fear dogs more than I fear death since I got saved. But in Hebrews chapter two, and I'll hush after this guys, I'm sorry, but this is, this is so pertinent to what we're talking about tonight.

So what, uh, if you go to Hebrews chapter two and beginning in verse 10, it says for, it was fitting that he or whom and by whom all things exist. Of course, he's speaking about Christ in bringing many souls and bringing many sons to glory that he should make the founder of their salvation.

Perfect through what? It's just what suffering for he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. Amen. That's Jesus. He is not ashamed to call them brothers saying, I will tell your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation.

I will sing your praise. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, behold, the children God has given me since therefore the children share in flesh and blood. He himself likewise partook of the same things that through death, there it is through death that he might destroy the one who has the power of death.

That is the devil. And, but wait, there's more right. And deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to life long slavery, the slavery of being in bondage to the fear of death. And don't get me wrong.

I know we don't go, you know, we don't go running around, uh, daring to die, but as Christians, God has put his spirit in us that, that causes us to understand and to know that there's, that there's more to right.

That, that death or the believer is not the end. Death is not something to be feared, right? But death is our entrance into glory. That's right. Again, Paul said it to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I'm sorry, guys. Thank you. You're going to.

Apologize for me. That was, that was good stuff. While you were, while you were talking, I was.

Thinking about how I'm sure Paul knew this, like the back of his hand, all the things he's talking.

About, about him boasting. Reminded me of, huh? What's that? The humble Baptist, uh, just said,.

Amen. Oh, the, uh, was Jeremiah nine 23. Don't let the wise man boasts as wisdom. Let the rich man boasts as riches. Don't let those strong man boasts as might, but let him who boasts boasts in that he knows me.

And in order to, in order to really know the Lord is to know him in your weakness, as well as in your strength. Whenever you come to the Lord, you come to the Lord with everything that you are. And, uh, so often we, uh, I don't know.

So often I think that as, as, as me and we would like to take God, the things we know immediately that we can't, we can't repair the sin that, uh, is our death sentence or, or, or the sin that's going to cause us to go to hell.

The things that we can't atone for, we want to bring to the Lord. Then it seems like the things that we want are the things that we feel like we can handle. We want to take care of on our own. At least that seems like what I've dealt with my entire life.

So it's, it's interesting that Paul's talking about an area of his life where God's strength is made perfect is in his weakness. And that's, uh, everything, everything for the clog status. What is the first, first 10 brother, uh, brother, Brad, what's that?

When you get into, uh, that chapter 12, he down there to, I think it's first 10 therefore, therefore I had something I've taught my kids and I've taught my church. When I see a, therefore I asked myself one question, what's it there for?

All right. The fact of the matter is when Paul wrote this, he wouldn't have been writing this broke down in verse and chapter. This would have been a continuous thought. This is a letter, just like any letter you've ever written.

Everything that, that brother Claude said, and everything that he starts this chapter at about and boasting in the, in the revelation is, is pivots on this word. You cannot move forward with the next however many verses until you take the therefore and accept everything before that is fact.

Everything before that has to be, has to be consolidated as a known statement or a known quantity. Then you can take the things that proceed the therefore, and you can apply the things that come after the therefore.

So all of that argument Paul was laying out, he's laying that out so that when he makes the next statement, it has sure footing to be built on and what follows that you read it a while ago. Um, therefore I'm well content with my weakness, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties for Christ's sake.

For when I am weak, then I'm strong. I have become foolish, but yourselves compelled me. Actually, I should have been commended by you. But if for no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even those that I am, nobody, the signs of the true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles for in that, or for in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not become a burden to you.

Forgive me this wrong. Here is the third time and he carries on. You can't, you can't walk in strength and you can't have your weakness be made your strength. If you refuse to accept the fact that everything prior to the therefore is solidly found foundational to everything after it.

And that's not just in this particular chapter,.

That's everywhere in scripture. When you see it, if I could tag tag onto or tag along with what both of you guys were saying, the, you know, in, in all of life, our goal, everything that we want to, to be about and do is to exalt Christ, to put him on display, to display his, his glory.

And as second Corinthians 12 says here, um, to, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me so that we can display the power of Christ. So if that's our goal and we're talking about preparedness, um, and as Paul was, was showing us this time of death is our, our greatest fear and it's our greatest point of weakness in our life.

So if we are preparing in all these different ways, the, the insults, distress, the weakness, persecution, difficulties in all those areas, all throughout our lives, if, if we are practicing and preparing, um, to delight in those weaknesses, why?

So that we can show off the power of Christ. And he is preparing us for that time of greatest weakness that in our death to the weekend, like, uh, similar to the verse that you quoted, where we can, um, bring, bring many sons.

We can, we can be, we can display Christ's power and, and be a witness of his power so that others will find, um, his power and what he's doing in our lives attractive and, and say, I want that Jesus.

I want him because he's so precious to this. Um, this man is dying well, and, and he is displaying the power of Christ in him. Um, and I think preparing throughout our lives in all these different areas is, is, is crucial for that time of greatest weakness.

Um, if I could say one quick thing, um, I was thinking about this, this woman that I will, will remain nameless, but she passed away already. Um, she was in her forties and, um, she was Christian. And one of the last things that she said was, I don't want to die.

And that sticks with me because it would be great to think, yeah, we as Christians, we, we do this perfectly and we die well. And, you know, and some might say, well, she didn't die so well, right? Like she was scared.

And I think it's okay to recognize that even as a Christian, even as a Christian, with many years of walking with the Lord, there will be, even, even in your last moments, there might be moments of weakness.

Right. And that kind of leads me to, to really the next few texts that we were going to discuss, which is Romans 8, 28, John 16, John 16, 33, first Corinthians 15. Um, I think it was 55 to 57. Um, you have to wonder, right?

Like why does the Bible repeat these kinds of things over and over, right? Like, why does Jesus say, you know, in this world, you will have tribulation, but take, take courage or take heart. I have overcome the world.

Why does Paul say in Romans 8, 28, and we know that God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love him, to those who are called according to his purpose, or, you know, where death is your victory, where a death is your sting.

The sting of death is sin. And the power of sin is the law, but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord, uh, Jesus Christ. I think.

That finish that verse, finish that chapter. And I think it helps answer the question.

Well, let me pull it up then. Cause I was just reading. What, what, um,.

He says be steadfast therefore. Yeah. Okay. There you go. Therefore steadfast and unafraid, knowing that your labor of the Lord is not in vain.

There you go. Yeah, exactly. And so the Bible recognizes, Hey, you're still in the flesh. You're still weak. You are going to have moments of weakness, right? Like anybody out there that's listening to this, that was hoping maybe I can get the secret to how to die.

Well, well, the secret is just remember scripture and believe it right. Exactly. Now, again, we have to fight against our flesh, even to our dying breath, because until we die, we have not yet been glorified.

And so that there will be aspects of the flesh that will give you fear that will give you doubts. Those, those things will, will happen. Now you are not, your salvation is not dependent on how well you die.

Don't make that mistake because a lot of people might think that, well, if I don't die, well, what will that mean for me? Well, it'll mean you didn't die well, but your salvation is up. The Lord's is not.

And so you have to keep that in mind. However, it is a comfort to know that we can die well and that we don't have to die in fear, which is why the Bible is over and over and over, reminding us of all these great truths, because we're kind of dumb, right?

Like we're, we're kind of dumb and we are quick to forget. You know, I love to think of myself as the foolish Galatian, right? Who has bewitched you. Exactly. Right. Who, that I am so quick to try to perfect by the flesh, what God started perfecting by the spirit.

And, you know, it's just, it's just one of those things where you have to constantly look back on what Christ has promised, what He has done and know that it's going to be a certainty for you as well.

It's just a matter of, are you remembering? Are you, you know, are you reflecting on that? I think of, for example, my, my grandfather, who was a faithful, faithful man, charismatic, by the way, big John.

So when he was passing away, you know, he had like dementia and Alzheimer's disease and all kinds of things. But the one thing that he didn't forget was scripture because he had, he had just ingrained it into his brain so deeply that like, no matter what his brain was going through, it was like in the head and right into the heart.

Amen. You know what I'm saying? And so like, you want to die? Well, well, prepare by, by knowing the scripture while you still have time. And you want to, you want to see miracles. You, you want to see miracles.

I'm saying this as a cessationist, by the way, you want to see miracles, live out your faith, preach the gospel, live like you believe it and actually believe it. You will see miracles. Amen.

You know, Jay, that, that lady that you quoted said something very interesting and it, it just hit me how interesting that statement was when she says, I don't want to die. And it made me think about, I look at, look at the shirt that you're wearing and you know, I think about how Spirit-filled believers want to, wanted to abolish slavery.

Spirit-filled believers want to abolish abortion. Why? Because life is precious. Sure. And God, God has put in us to honor life and to love life because he created it and he created us in his image. So I think there's a balance to that statement where it's, maybe it's not a complete sign of weakness where you say, I don't want to die because God has put in us to appreciate and love the life that he has created.

He called, he called, it wasn't, it was God's desire for us to live.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean.

Notice that he didn't take us up to heaven the moment we were saved.

That's right. One of the things that she was talking about, Brother Jay, that just this lady, and I, I suppose I'm sympathetic to it because first of all, Jesus says, don't fear him who has the power to kill the body and after that can do no more.

He has to rectify what he's fixing to say. Don't be afraid of the ones who can kill your body and do no more. That's a pretty bold statement because if somebody pulled a gun on you tonight, wherever you're at, that would, that would strike terror into the heart of the most of manliest of men, I would think.

Right. And he says, rather fear him who has power to destroy the body and soul in hell. That's the one you're to fear. So he's, he's constantly trying to make sure that we can quantify what and when and whom we should fear.

And I think it was Herschel Walker. I think it was. I'm not really a sports nut, but I was listening to one of the men who helped found a foundation where they help all these charitable cases or whatever.

And when he was laying on his deathbed, one of his guys that he mentored said, are you afraid? He said, of course I'm afraid. I ain't never died before. And I was thinking whenever she said that, I thought, you know, this is something you don't get to do, but one time.

So if you want to do everything else in your life, just about, you get to practice so that, you know, you do it. Well, you get to study for tests. You get to, to go to band practices before events. You get to practice your sermon in front of the mirror before Sunday morning, but, but kicking the bucket, that's kind of a one and done sort of thing, you know?

And so I'm, I'm sympathetic to her because undoubtedly throughout man's past, Christ has comforted us with words over and over again through scripture, assuring us that once we stop breathing here, that's not the end.

And then I think it was in World War II. I don't recall now. I was watching a movie one time and I don't know if it's real or it's not, it's make believe, but it was told to be the truth to me that one of the guys on Normandy was, was hunkered down and his sergeant or CO come over to him and said, come on, we've got to take this beach.

And he said, I can't. He said, I am. I'm too scared to move. I'm scared. I'm going to die. And he was, he was paralyzed with fear. He said, there's your first problem. You're dead already. He said, if you just, if you realize you're already dead, now you can do some damage to the enemy.

That's band of brothers. Might be band of brothers. I do. It is. I know what scene you're talking about. That's, that's an amazing scene. So it's one of those things where you can't really be productive for the Lord.

If you're petrified of the thing that he said, he put under his feet. If you're paralyzed with fear of death, that is the last enemy that the Lord destroyed was dead. Right. So, uh, is it scary? Yeah, it's scary.

Uh, what is the definition of courage though? Moving and doing what you know to do in spite of the fear that you have from something. So, uh, don't let's not dismiss that lady that said she was afraid to die.

Cause that's normal. Right. Right. But she proceeded on into death anyway. I assume.

Yeah, she, she passed away. So, but you know, what I was trying to get at is you will have, you know, like you will have those moments of weakness, even in the end, they can happen. You know, some people die really well.

Some people die like, you know, like it's just taking a stroll,.

You know, it's just another day for them. Well, some people do die while taking a stroll. So.

They didn't have time to prepare for it. I mean, there was a guy I knew when I was a youth pastor that, uh, he had dementia and he was, there were some other things going on and he took a turn. And, uh, on his deathbed, his family circled around him and saying, it is well.

And then he sat up and he smiled and said, okay, I'm going to go meet Jesus. And then he just passed like that. Wow. And then there are other people that it's, it's violent. Uh, my grandfather's last words were it's hot.

I don't want to go. Yeah. It's, we don't have a whole lot of daddy here on what it's, what it's like to die at all people that know aren't coming back to tell us. Right. So there, there is an uncertainty there.

There is some of this that's, that's, that's justified. That's validated because I've never died before, as John so eloquently put it, that there is an unknown, but we're also as believers going somewhere that Christ has gone before us.

That just as God went before the Israelites with a pillar of fire and led them to the land that he would show them. So Christ beckons us into the gates of heaven, into the gates of paradise, as someone who has gone into the grave, somebody who has died and who has come out of the grave victorious.

And that is where we follow our glories captain.

Conquering the Fear of Death by Faith and Scripture

Hmm. Well, I don't think that we have time to review all these other, other verses. Um, so let, let me just read these other three and then we'll look at these questions. Uh, Romans eight 28. And we know that, uh, God calls us all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.

John 16 33, these things I have spoken to you so that in me, you may have peace in the world. You have tribulation, but take courage. I have overcome the world. First Corinthians 15 55 through 57, where old death is your victory.

Where old death is your sting. The sting of death is sin. The power of sin is the law, but thanks be to God who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So I think all of you have basically touched at some point on question number one, but specifically to, to encourage us, uh, to those who may be listening, does the Bible help us conquer the fear of death?

Yes. No. Yes. I'm kidding. Yes. Anybody want to elaborate? I feel like I've talked enough. I'll keep going. If you, if you have something you want to say,.

The only thing I'll say is it's, it's what I already said, you know, the more that, you know, scripture, the more that you are prepared for that moment. Um, and kind of, I know I'm cheating here, Rob, but if you would allow me, um, does it, you know, your, your second question is, does living a certain way allow us to be more receptive to God's graces?

I would say so. Um, you know, because we're all supposed to be growing right in sanctification, but, um, some of us will grow more than others. Right. And some of us will kind of struggle. Um, and I think that the less that we walk according to what we have been, uh, commanded to, to walk in the more that we're going to ultimately, right.

Um, I do believe in a thing called, well, what we reform type people would call the means of grace, right? I don't believe that works do anything to save us, but just like God says, ordinarily, I save people through the preaching of the gospel.

It's not the work in itself, but it's what God does through those things, right. To increase faith, to bring people to salvation, et cetera. Um, that, that lead to growth that lead to spiritual, uh, awakening, you know, whatever you want to, you know, we have different denominations here and, and I'm not just talking about you, big John, by the way, I know you're the only one here, but, but I, I mean, in the labors podcast as a whole, I think we use different terminology to ultimately describe many of the same things.