May 28, 2020 Show with Don K. Preston & Samuel Frost Debating “Full Preterism”; Day 1: “The Second Coming of Christ Was in AD 70” (Preston Affirms/Frost Denies)

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 28th day of May 2020, and I'm so thrilled that finally the long -awaited two -day debate begins today on full preterism.

Today, Thursday, May 28th, we are going to be addressing the theme, The Second Coming of Christ was in A .D.

70, and our debater Don Preston will affirm that thesis, and Sam Frost will deny it.

Tomorrow, on day two, Friday, May 29th, we are going to be addressing the theme,

The Physical Resurrection of the Dead is Still in Our Future, and Samuel M.

Frost will affirm that thesis, and Don K. Preston will deny it. But for today, let me introduce to you our two debaters.

First of all, Don K. Preston is a leading proponent of full preterism, which claims that all the biblical prophecies, including all the prophecies of the

New Testament, were fulfilled in A .D. 70, at the fall of Jerusalem. He is president of the

Preterist Research Institute in Ardmore, Oklahoma, and a prolific author. Some of his books have been translated into as many as six different languages.

Don's largest book to date, We Shall Meet Him in the Air, The Wedding of the King of Kings, is the very first and only full -length commentary on 1

Thessalonians, Chapter 4, from the full preterist perspective. Don Preston's writings have appeared in almost every major religious periodical of the

Churches of Christ, and let me offer you my greetings, Don Preston. Thank you,

Chris. Thank you very much. Great to be with you. And Samuel M. Frost is our second debater.

He was formerly a leading full preterist advocate. While still an advocate,

Sam authored such full preterist works as Misplaced Hope, Exegetical Essays on the

Resurrection of the Dead, and co -authored with Mike Sullivan, Dave Green, and Ed Hassert, House Divided, Bridging the

Gap in Reformed Eschatology, a preterist response to When Shall These Things Be?,

which was a reformed response to hyper -preterism edited by Keith Matheson of Ligonier Ministries.

Sam also lectured extensively for over eight years at full preterist conferences.

After abandoning that theology, Sam wrote the book, Why I Left Full Preterism, and welcome to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Samuel M.

Frost. Thank you, Chris. Pleasure to be here. And it's a pleasure to have both of you here.

As I said, we've been waiting for this for quite a while, and I'm so glad that the debate is finally taking off today.

We are going to start with a 10 -minute opening remark segment that each of our debaters will have, and we are going to begin with Don Preston for his 10 -minute opening remark, which will be affirming the thesis that we've already mentioned.

The second coming of Christ was in A .D. 70. Don Preston? All right.

Thank you very much. Again, very glad to be here. My first affirmative is going to be based on 2

Thessalonians, Chapter 1. And let me begin by saying, number one, there is very, very little disagreement.

Some post -millennialists would take the position of the preterist position of it, but by and large, there is universal consent that 2

Thessalonians, Chapter 1 is predictive of the second coming, no matter how we perceive it to be, no matter what, or when we perceive it to have happened.

With that statement, let me make this observation. If I demonstrate that the second coming was fulfilled in A .D.

70, at the end of the Old Covenant age, I will therefore have already defeated

Mr. Frost and his proposition for tomorrow night, because the second coming and the resurrection are synchronous events.

Therefore, to establish that 2 Thessalonians, Chapter 1 is fulfilled is to establish that the resurrection has been fulfilled.

And with that, let me haste into the text of 2 Thessalonians, Chapter 1. Point number one,

Paul was writing to living, breathing human Christians living 2 ,000 years ago at Thessalonica.

Point number two, those Christians at Thessalonica were being persecuted.

Paul uses the word philipsis, which is translated as tribulation, four times in the text.

He uses both the present active and the present participial form, the present active telling us obviously that it was going on at that particular time.

Point number three, those Thessalonians were being persecuted by the Jews. This is established beyond dispute in Acts, Chapter 17, as well as 1

Thessalonians, Chapter 2, 14 to 16. Point number four, Paul promised the

Thessalonian Christians the following, it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who are troubling you.

Now he uses philipsis twice in this text. And to give to you who are being troubled, philipsis, rest, from the

Greek word anesis, more on that in a moment, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those that do not know

God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the

Lord and from the glory of his power when he comes in that day to be glorified in his saints and to be admired among all those who believe because our testimony of you was believed.

So let's have no misunderstanding here. What did Paul promise those living, breathing

Thessalonians who were being persecuted by the Jews? He promised them rest.

This is from the Greek word anesis. And ladies and gentlemen, anesis doesn't mean comfort.

It doesn't mean consolation in the sense of some emotive thing, some psychological comfort.

Anesis is the antonym of philipsis. Philipsis is pressure, no matter what kind of pressure it is.

It may be financial pressure as in 2 Corinthians chapter 8. It may be the pressure of childbirth as in John chapter 16.

Anesis is relief from whatever pressure is in the context. The only pressure in the context of 2

Thessalonians chapter 1 is persecution from the

Jews against the Christians. And Paul says it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who are.

Now let's be very clear here. Paul was not addressing some far off distant generation of the church.

He is writing to the church of the Thessalonians, verse 1, 2 ,000 years ago.

And he promised those Christians 2 ,000 years ago relief from the pressure of persecution.

And relief, he promised persecution on the persecuted.

As a host of commentaries point out, this is the law of lex talionis.

In other words, God is going to give them what they were giving the Thessalonians. They were persecuting the

Thessalonians. So the tables were going to be turned and the

Thessalonians were going to receive relief from that pressure of tribulation at the hands of the

Jews. When would that relief come? When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven and it would be in that day when he comes to be glorified in his saints.

So the question therefore is, did Paul lie or did

Paul's prediction fail? Now, the language here could not be clearer.

Out of 60 English translations, it renders it relief or rest when the

Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven. The Greek is en, the

N as we would spell it. But as every lexicon shows, the

Greek word en has a temporal significance and thus very, very often,

I should say, and they list 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 as one of those instances in which, no pun intended, en is to be translated when the

Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven. Now, I want you to notice something here.

Paul says the Lord will give relief from that tribulation when the

Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven and in flaming fire with his angels. This is a direct citation, as virtually all critical commentators note, taken directly from Isaiah chapter 66.

Well, Isaiah chapter 66 is a prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem when the

Lord said, I will bring on them that which they dread. And a voice in the temple, a voice of doom heard in the temple.

That was a judgment of Jerusalem and it would be in the day in which the

Lord would come in flaming fire with his chariots to create the new heaven and the new earth.

Thus, here is Paul in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, anticipating the fulfillment of Isaiah 66, which was a prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem and the

Lord's coming in flaming fire to wreak vengeance on the wicked, and that's the weakest

Jews at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. There would be survivors of that day of the

Lord, that day of the Lord in flaming fire, and those survivors would then go to the nations who had never heard the name of the

Lord, never known the God of Israel, and proclaim his glory to them just as 2

Thessalonians chapter 1 says he was coming to be glorified in his saints.

The idea of glory is associated with the manifestation of Christ from heaven.

Jesus would come on the clouds of heaven in the glory of the

Father. He would come with power and great glory. And Jesus said that coming would be in his generation,

Matthew chapter 24. Now the question before us, are we going to accept the inspired word of Paul, who unequivocally was talking to first century saints, being persecuted, being persecuted by the

Jews, and Paul promised that God was going to turn the tables on those

Jews, they would be persecuted, and the Christians would receive relief from that persecution.

Now the question is, did God turn the tables on the Jews? Well anybody who knows anything about history knows that the

Jews went from being the persecutors to being the persecuted, and they were destroyed in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem as a judgment for killing

Jesus, for killing the prophets, for killing the apostles and prophets of Jesus, just as Paul said in 1

Thessalonians chapter 2, when he said that the Jews had killed the prophets, they had slain the

Lord, they were now killing the apostles and prophets of the Lord, in doing so they were filling up the measure of their sin, just as Jesus predicted that they would in Matthew 23, and judgment had come upon them to the uttermost.

Thus 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is a prediction of the second coming.

As a prediction of the second coming, it is a prediction of the resurrection. But it is unequivocally a prediction of the coming of the

Lord in the lifetime of the Thessalonians living 2 ,000 years ago, being persecuted, being persecuted by the

Jews, being promised that the Jews would be very soon in their lifetime become the persecuted, and the

Thessalonians would receive relief. I believe this establishes my proposition very clearly.

Thank you. Thank you. And now we have Samuel M.

Frost giving his denial that the second coming of Christ was in AD 70.

And Sam, you also have 10 minutes. All righty, thank you.

What is commonly called the second coming of Jesus Christ is defined in the letter to the

Thessalonians. Paul describes there an event that Don Preston believes happened on a day in the

Jewish war with the Romans in 70 AD. And I might add here briefly that there is no documented evidence whatsoever in the literature of the early

Church all the way to the present era that any member of the Church in all of its theological, academic, and intellectual efforts from all four quarters of the earth have ever suggested that what

Paul describes here in 1 Thessalonians 4 happened in 70

AD. The Church, in all of its existence, holds the conversation of eschatology within three questions.

One, what has been fulfilled? Two, what is now being fulfilled?

And three, what is to be fulfilled in the future? This is the language of covenant, which

Meredith Klein famously unlocked the five points of covenant, vassal, and sousen treaties of the ancient

Near East and found these also to be in existence in the structure of the Torah and the

Hebrew Bible. In brief, the five points of covenant ask who is in charge here, to whom do

I report, what are the rules, what happens to me if I obey or disobey, and does this covenant have a future success?

So let's see what Paul describes here for the future. Number one,

God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. Number two,

Jesus will descend from heaven. Upon this descent from heaven, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep, which means that they are with the

Lord in heaven until such time. This would be in complete agreement with Paul elsewhere, where he said to be absent from the body here on earth means that we are with the

Lord in heaven, 2 Corinthians 5. Again, a standard teaching within Christian theology, whether it be

Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. Number three, the dead in Christ, those who have fallen asleep in the

Lord, and who are now with the Lord in heaven, shall rise from the dead. This has implications for tomorrow, which we will discuss then.

Number four, those who are alive and living on earth will be changed as they meet the

Lord with those who are descending with Jesus. And so Paul says, we, which are those who have fallen asleep and are now raised from the dead, with those alive and living who have been changed, shall together be forever with the

Lord. There is no indication in this text that God takes them back up to heaven.

Rather, Jesus descends, apo uro no, from heaven, a direction of heading down, and remains on earth with the saints who have been raised from the dead, and the saints who are alive and have been changed.

I want the listener to keep in mind that Mr. Preston teaches that all of this, in detail, happened on a day and an hour at some time in the year 70

AD. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul again describes what will happen when

Jesus descends from heaven. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

By sleep he means, of course, dying here on earth and being buried while the living mourn your departure.

Paul envisions a time when those who are asleep in the dust of the earth and those who are not, who are living, will be changed together.

This will take place in a moment, in a flash. The dead will be raised and the living shall be changed.

That which is corrupted will put on that which is incorruptible for both the dead and the living.

Death will be swallowed up. The image is that when something is swallowed up, bolted down, it is no more, it no longer exists.

And indeed, the apostle John foresaw a time when, quote, death shall be no more, Revelation 21 .4.

In fact, John pictures this death as being hurled into the lake of fire, Revelation 20 .14.

That is a picture of complete and total defeat and destruction. We find this same parallel in John's revelation, wherein he saw that the heavens and the earth had passed away when he saw a new heavens and a new earth,

Revelation 21 .1. This clearly echoes the language of Jesus in Matthew 24 .35,

where he affirmed that heaven and earth will pass away, but of that day, when heaven and earth pass away, no man knows.

No man knows the day it will pass away or the hour it will pass away. But if Mr. Preston is correct, then such a momentous event of salvation would surely have been documented.

The day and the hour it happened. Looking back, surely someone, somewhere, recorded such an event down to the day and to the hour.

It would seem, then, that Paul is envisioning a time when God would so dissolve the power of death that it would literally be no more.

And, in fact, he says this, the last enemy that is destroyed is death, when

Jesus will destroy all of his enemies. Again, something Preston believes happened in 70

A .D. All of God's enemies have been destroyed in 70 A .D.,

and death itself has been hurled into the lake of fire and is no more, along with the grave.

For the Christian today, there is no more death, and there is no more grave, and there are no more enemies at all.

They have all been destroyed in 70 A .D., yet somehow Christians still fall asleep.

Indeed, one would imagine a time when the enemies of Christ would be taken out of the world if the above picture is correct.

And this is, in fact, what Jesus taught. Let me quote the Lord at length. He answered,

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom, which is the field, which is the world, all causes of sin and all wall breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace, lake of fire.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of the

Father, that him who has ears to listen let him hear. This follows the clear pattern in Matthew 24, where the same language is used by Matthew.

Jesus will send out the angels and gather together his elect, not to remove them from the earth, the world, which is the field, in the parable, but that they would shine forth.

It is the wicked that are removed, the enemies that have been sown by the enemy, the devil. Preston would also have to teach, which he does, that the devil no longer exists, no longer sows in the world the wicked, that in 70

A .D. the wicked and all causes of evil have been removed and thrown into the lake of fire, and that the thousand years have already ended in 70

A .D., and that every enemy of God has been destroyed. All of these events, according to Mr.

Preston, have occurred. There will be no end to history as we know it. The wicked on this earth will continue to flourish as they do without any end whatsoever.

In asking the question above what is to be fulfilled, or to put it in covenant terms, does this covenant have a future?

Preston's answer to the first is, nothing is left to be fulfilled, and no, the church has no future on this earth in terms of any victory over evil.

On this earth will forever, for infinity, continue a battle between wickedness and righteousness because there is no future end to come.

Romans 8 and all like passages have been fulfilled in 70 A .D.

The hope has been fulfilled. The resurrection has been fulfilled. The second coming in the presence of Jesus Christ has been fulfilled.

And with that, I end. Well, thank you, Sam. And we are now going to be going to a commercial break, something that we need to do to keep this program on the air.

And when we return, each debater will have a seven minute rebuttal to the other debater.

And we're going to be beginning once again with Don K. Preston. So don't go away.

We're going to be right back with the full Preterist debate between Don K. Preston and Samuel M. Frost right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. This is day number one of the two -day debate on full preterism.

We have now reached the point when each of our debaters, Don K. Preston and Samuel M. Frost, will give a rebuttal to the statements that were previously given by each of them.

And these will be seven minutes each. And Don Preston, once again, you begin. Okay, let me set my stopwatch here.

Open stopwatch. All right, let me begin.

Being in the affirmative, I was under the understanding that Sam was supposed to address what

I said. And everyone will notice he did not, he literally did not say a word about anything that I said.

So I'm hoping that he'll get around to that. So since I'm supposed to rebut some of the things that he had to say, let me just jump right in and address some of the things that he said.

He said the Church has no record whatsoever, and that there's no one who's ever believed in the preterist view.

Well, I would remind the audience that for a thousand years of Church history, the Reformed view of justification was completely and totally unknown.

And this was brought out in the trial of Luther, even. And I mean, so for someone to say, well, the

Church has never known such and such, number one, it proves nothing. It is an argument for silence, and it does not, it's not proof of a proposition of any kind.

Then Mr. Frost, Sam launches into and says, well, if Preston is right, then the dead have been raised and et cetera, et cetera.

Well, there's so many presuppositions underlying what Mr. Frost said that literally time does not allow me to examine everyone.

He assumes that death is physical death. He assumes that there is an end of time.

He assumes a literal physical heaven and earth. And he made more of a point on Matthew chapter 24 and 35, and Matthew 24, 36 than he did anything else, telling us and assuring us that literal physical heaven and earth must pass away.

Well, in the context of Matthew chapter 24, the heaven and earth is the temple.

Josephus himself tells us that the temple was called heaven and earth. In the Old Testament, the destruction of the temple, the destruction of old covenant

Judaism was called the destruction of heaven and earth. Isaiah 64, Isaiah 65.

And let me put it like this. The destruction of the old heaven and earth would bring in the new heaven and new earth.

In Isaiah chapter 65 verse 15 and following, the Lord said, speaking to Israel, old covenant

Israel, the Lord God will slay you and call his people by a new name.

Verse 17, for the Lord God will slay you, or to me, verse 17, still 15. The Lord will,

God will slay you and call his people by a new name. For behold, I create new heaven and new earth.

So here's the destruction of old covenant Israel and the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

Matthew 24, it's the destruction of old covenant Israel and the temple, which Josephus said was heaven and earth and the creation or the passing of heaven and earth, which means the coming in of a new heaven and new earth.

And then Mr. Frost tells us, well, no man knows of that day and hour. Well, there are a couple of different things that Sam overlooks here.

Number one, that terminology, no man knows the day and the hours directly from Israel's feast days.

It comes from Rosh Hashanah. And I don't have time to explicate on that, but it simply points out that Jesus was drawing on Israel's feast days and pointing out that this judgment of Jerusalem would happen during Israel's feast days, specifically

Rosh Hashanah, and that is precisely what happened. Point number two,

Sam wants us to believe that that statement, no man knows the day and the hour, is absolutely still true.

But he overlooks the fact that when Jesus said that, the Holy Spirit had not been poured out on his apostles.

And Jesus told his own apostles, it was necessary for him to go away. John chapter 16, seven and following.

It is expedient for you that I go away. If I do not go away, the comforter cannot come. And if I go away, the father will send him.

He will guide you into all truth and show you things to come. So the father who knew the day and the hour would send the

Holy Spirit to inspire the apostles to know what? Things to come. And those apostles said,

I believe Paul probably wrote Hebrews, just for argument's sake, we're going to assume that. The writer of Hebrews said, and now in a very, very little while, the one who's coming will come and will not carry.

Now it was the father who knew the day and the hour that inspired the writer of Hebrews to say, the one who is coming will come and will not delay.

Furthermore, revelation chapter one, one to three, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which

God, that's the father who knew the day and the hour gave to him to show it to his servants, the things which was shortly come to pass.

The time has drawn near. So here's the father revealing the day and the hour.

So it's absolutely an anachronistic hermeneutic to say, well, you know, in all of these time statements of the new

Testament, God said, or Jesus said, no man knows the day or the hour. Well, Paul said in Romans chapter 13, and now knowing the hour, 1

Thessalonians chapter five, and now brethren concerning the times and the seasons, you have no need that I say anything to you for you know perfectly well.

So it is absolutely wrong. It is anachronistic to go to Matthew chapter 24, 36, and apply

Jesus' statement, but of that day and hour knows no man. And by the way, there have been many, many noted reformed theologians through the years who have taken

Matthew 24, 36 to speak of AD 70.

So it's, it's number one, it's wrong to say that nobody's ever thought of this. Secondly, we have, we have

Jesus' own words in regard to at the time that he spoke, no man knew the day, the hour, but after the

Holy spirit was sent by the father who knew the day and the hour, guess what folks?

The father inspired them to say over and over and over again, inspired

Peter to say Christ was ready for the Greek word etoimos, meaning not only moral, morally prepared, but temporarily ready to judge the living and the dead.

The end of all things has drawn near the time, specifically and critically, the appointed time for the judgment has come.

That the judgment is the time of the judgment of the living and the dead. That's the resurrection.

And Peter was saying through inspiration from the father who knew the day and the hour, the time had arrived for that judgment.

Thank you, Don Preston. And by the way, I'd just like to briefly remind both of our debaters, please try to remain as silent as possible while the other is speaking, because everything that you do can be picked up by your, your phone and through the broadcast today.

So please try to remain as silent and as motionless as you can. And now, Sam Frost, it's your turn to give a seven minute rebuttal.

I jumped into second Thessalonians chapter one, and my rebuttal was going to be to his opening response as his rebuttal followed my opening response.

So here's my rebuttal to his opening response on first or second Thessalonians chapter one is that first of all, he tries to establish that the

Thessalonians were being solely persecuted here by the Jews. And he refers to first Thessalonians chapter one or chapter two, to state that the

Thessalonians were being persecuted only by the Jews. But that's not what Paul says.

He says, you brothers have become imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus.

You suffered from your own countrymen, the same things those churches suffered from the

Jews. So their own countrymen were troubling them. It wasn't just the Jews. They were being persecuted by other sources as well.

It wasn't just a Jewish persecution. Paul does not say that. Secondly, what Paul says here to them is basically a

Hebrew scriptures description of what God does, which is a manifest token of the just judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer, which

I guess we've stopped suffering for the kingdom of God since 70 AD came and brought fulfillment of that.

And then Paul says, it is a righteous thing at the present, at the present time. It's a righteous thing for God to repay.

This is what God does. He repays tribulation to the ones tribulating you.

That's how the Greek would read here, and I'm reading from the Greek text. It is a righteous thing with God to repay to the ones tribulating you, to repay them tribulation or affliction.

This is what God has done in the Old Testament. This is, I could find numerous references of him troubling those that troubled the

Jews, troubling those that touched the apple of his eye, whoever, troubling Nebuchadnezzar.

For example, Daniel, the three boys are thrown into the fiery furnace, and then the very next chapter, seven times passes over because seven times the fire is heated, the furnace.

And so Nebuchadnezzar is now seven times passed over. So this is what God does.

If you mess with his anointed people, he tends to take vengeance. That's what

Paul's explaining. And all of the language here is straight out of the Hebrew scripture. And then it says, what

Don wants you to think is that he's going to give a relief or that this persecution is going to cease in the day and in the hour of the second coming of Jesus, which happened in 70

AD. So all of a sudden, when 70 AD, somewhere in the summer, perhaps

May when the temple fell, all of a sudden, all of this troubling that they were having from their own fellow countrymen would stop.

It would just stop. And we know from history that persecution did not stop. In fact, it increased as anybody following history would understand.

The first Thessalonians 1, 7, to you who are troubled, there are three translations that I follow.

The first translation is the American Standard Version. It says, and to you who are afflicted, rest with us.

Another translation, the Dewey Rains I follow, and to you who are troubled, rest with us.

The King James Version says, and to you who are troubled, rest with us.

The Young's Literal Translation has, and to you who are troubled, rest with us in the revelation of the

Lord Jesus from heaven with messengers of his power.

That's where Jesus is. He's with the messengers of his power in flaming fire. This is a picture of what

Daniel sees, for example, in Daniel chapter 7. He sees the myriads upon myriads of angels among the ancient of days, and he sees the throne, and he sees flaming fires.

This is what he sees. This is where Jesus is, at the right hand of the Father, in the midst of his angels, the myriads and myriads of angels,

Revelation chapter 5, with flaming fire at his fingertips. He's ready to send down all the angels.

Everything is at his command. This is where he's at. Rest in the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven, who with the angels and with his flames of power.

This is an image that is given to me, that if I'm troubled or being persecuted, then

God who holds this kind of power with Jesus Christ at his right hand, who has all power with all the angels at his command, will bring tribulation to those tribulating you.

He will take vengeance on those who bother the church. He does this.

It's a promise that he's done in the past. It's a promise that he's doing right now.

This is a promise of God guarding his people. You touch his people, he touches you.

That's what Paul is saying here. Nothing about any second coming of Jesus Christ here.

This is Paul alluding to an Old Testament language, typical Old Testament language, that God brings about vengeance, because after all, he is the

God of vengeance. That's what he's saying here. Now, he tries, and I don't know my time, and you'll have to tell me

I don't have a stop, so just cut me off. He says that justification for a thousand years has never ever been taught, and I would suggest that Mr.

Preston would read Dr. John Gerstner's book, The History of the Doctrine of Justification. I asked before, as he mentions many

Reformers that go back and forth on Matthew 24, and that's all very true, because I asked, I said in the beginning, the conversation within the

Christian Church has been what has been fulfilled, what is now being fulfilled, and what is to be fulfilled.

And regardless of what amount of material you put of Matthew 24, this, that, and the other, and some have a break, and some don't, and some do this, and some say this was 70

AD, and some don't, but within this larger conversation, these three questions have always remained.

What has been fulfilled, what is now being fulfilled in the Church, and in the world, and what is to be fulfilled?

And none of the sources that Don Preston quotes, none of them answer the question, or take all of the things to be fulfilled, and place them in 70

AD. Not one. And you are now out of time.

We have a commercial break coming up again. Please be patient with us, folks. As I said, we require these commercial breaks in order to exist as a radio program.

The amount of donations that come in, although we have very loyal and generous listeners, the donations on their own could never suffice to keep our program on the air, which is why we need the advertising dollars from our sponsors to remain on the air as a program.

So please be patient. And when we return, this is my favorite part of the program. This is the cross -examination section that is coming up.

And this time the order is reversed during the cross -examinations. We'll have Sam Frost begin, and we'll have

Don Preston be second in line to cross -examine Sam. Please be patient with us, and we're going to be returning after this break, so don't go away.

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Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time. We are now back to the debate.

And as I said earlier, this is my favorite part of the debate. It's the cross -examination section.

Each debater will have 10 minutes to cross -examine the other. The ground rules are that those asking questions of their opponent are only to ask questions and not give speeches.

They are not to bring up things they forgot to say earlier on in the debate. They are to ask questions only.

The one being questioned or cross -examined is only to answer questions.

And he is never to ask his own questions unless he's just asking a clarifying statement, like, can you repeat that or what did you mean by that?

There is not to be any speeches or filibustering at all. And we are beginning this time with Sam Frost, who is cross -examining

Don K. Preston for 10 minutes. And it's now your turn. I would ask

Don concerning the second coming of Christ of which he says is past and which

I believe is future. And both Don and I agree that at the second coming of Christ, death is destroyed or swallowed up.

1 Corinthians 15, Revelation chapter 20, death is no more thrown into the lake of fire.

I would want to ask Don this. Can you explain to me how the death is swallowed up or thrown into the lake of fire and is no more?

Can you explain that to me? The key term is, can you hear me by the way?

I hear you loud and clear. Okay. Okay. I had turned my mic off during the break.

I apologize for that. Anyway, the key term is found in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 as it is found in all of the polling literature, and that is in Christ.

God never promised to destroy death universally. He promised to destroy death in Christ.

For those in Christ, Jesus said, if a man believes in me, he shall never die.

That is the destruction of death for those in Christ. It is a state of being. Jesus said that those who believe in him and the father who has sent me has passed from death to life.

That's in the perfect tense, by the way. And John said in 1 John chapter 3 and verse 14, we know that we have, perfect tense, passed from death to life if we love the brethren.

And so that qualifying statement that is one of Paul's very favorite terms in Christ is where death would be no more.

Just as Revelation depicts it, the state of no death is in the

New Jerusalem. It's not outside the New Jerusalem, and not outside of Christ.

That state of no death is in Christ, and in that we can rejoice.

I would ask a follow -up question since the death at the second coming is thrown into the lake of fire along with the grave and along with the devil.

Is the devil for those not inside the New Jerusalem also, but he's still for those outside the

New Jerusalem? If we understand that the response to that is, if we understand the devil in the context of Revelation, and Revelation chapter 2 and Revelation chapter 12 specifically defines the devil as old covenant

Israel, the adversary of Christ in the book of Revelation. That is the context of the adversary.

As you well know, the word satan simply means adversary.

It can refer either to a supernatural, so to speak, spirit, demon, or it can refer to a person as when

Jesus referred to Peter and said, get thee behind me, Satan. He was being his adversary at that time.

In the book of Revelation, the great adversary of God is old covenant Jerusalem. It is the city that killed the prophets,

Revelation 16 .6. It is the city where the Lord was crucified, Revelation 11 .8.

It is the city that was at that time and had been guilty of killing the apostles and the prophets of Jesus.

That is the Satan that was destroyed at the judgment and Revelation chapter 20.

Okay. Um, so is the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan that he's not destroyed at the end of a thousand years?

If one takes a view that there, I'm sorry, were you finished? Yeah, I didn't mean to,

I didn't, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, you're, you're fine. Okay. Uh, the Leviathan, uh, of course goes all the way back.

It's part of the A and E, uh, literature and folklore and, uh, myth and fable as well as biblical.

Uh, uh, Leviathan was the enemy of God and Isaiah chapter 27 kills us, uh, going back, the antecedent to Revelation, I'm sorry,

Isaiah chapter 26, 19 to 21. It would be in the day in which the martyrs of God would be vindicated.

That Leviathan, that great serpent would be destroyed the time of Israel's salvation.

The time Isaiah chapter 27 verses nine and following in which the people of no understanding, the people that the

Lord had created would be, would no longer receive mercy. The time in which the city, the fortified city would be destroyed and the time in which the altar would be turned to short chalk stone.

Now, so we have here in a prophecy from the little apocalypse, Isaiah 24 through 27, the prediction of Leviathan, the enemy of God being destroyed at the time of the consummation of Israel's covenant history, when

Jerusalem would be destroyed, when the temple would be destroyed and Paul writing just a few years prior to that event, the destruction of the temple in the city said, and now the

God of peace shall crush Satan. That's the great Leviathan under your feet shortly used the

Greek term in Tarkai, which never means rapidly as opposed to soon and shortly and imminently.

So however we take Leviathan, we have the new Testament, both the old

Testament and the new Testament testimony that the destruction of Leviathan was very, very imminent.

I'm just wanting to get straight here because it says here, the serpent or the devil who has deceived the nations.

And then it states, he was thrown into the, the devil who deceived them.

It would be the same character or person and his angels were thrown into the lake.

But you're saying those are two different things. One is old covenant

Israel and the other one is a Leviathan. No, I am identifying the Leviathan as the great enemy of God to be destroyed.

And in, in the final analysis of it, it really doesn't matter what you do because Isaiah posits the destruction of that Leviathan emphatically, explicitly, and specifically at the time of the salvation of Israel at the end of her covenant age.

And when the fortified city would be desolated, when the altar would be turned to chalk stone, when the people whom the

Lord had created would no longer find mercy. Now that's taken directly from Deuteronomy chapter 32, in which the

Lord in Deuteronomy 32, 18 says it was Israel that was the people, no understanding.

Deuteronomy 32 is the song of, about Israel's last days.

Deuteronomy 32, 19 and following, Deuteronomy 32 verses 29 and following, oh that they were wise that they would understand what their last days would be.

So here is God in Isaiah 26 and 27 predicting the destruction of Leviathan in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32, which is about Israel's last days.

And again, emphatically and specifically positing that destruction at the time when the city and the temple would be destroyed, when the people whom the

Lord had created would no longer obtain mercy. So whether one takes Leviathan as a spirit being or whether he takes it just as Israel really doesn't matter, because Isaiah is clearly emphatic about the time, the context, and the framework for that destruction.

Well he's emphatic about it, but he mentions the seizing of the dragon, the ancient serpent, and that would take me back to Genesis chapter 3, where I know that that cannot stand for old covenant

Israel, unless you believe, of course, old covenant Israel is in the garden tempting Adam. I believe you're preaching.

Well, what you're saying is, let me get this straight, is that the death is no more for those in Christ, even though it's pictured thrown into the lake of fire, but the devil, which is the things that you say that it is, that surely is no more for nobody, for anybody.

That's truly, but both of them are thrown into the lake of fire. So why is the death still around, but the devil, whatever that is, isn't?

Well, first of all, you're preaching to me in violation of what Chris just said. Secondly, you completely and totally ignored the answer that I gave.

Number three, the fact remains that the language is very explicit, very graphic about the context, the time, the framework of when that would be done.

And thirdly, you're ignoring the apocalyptic nature of the language. It is absolutely, totally within the framework of apocalyptic literature, language, and expression for the enemy of God to be destroyed for the people of God, and for those in covenant relationship with him, and yet said to be destroyed, and yet still applicable outside.

But again, I would urge everyone to consider what I just said in regard to Isaiah 26 and 27, and the fact that, excuse me, that Sam completely, totally ignored everything that I pointed out.

Okay, so your answer basically is one exists, and one doesn't exist.

So Isaiah 25. And I'm sorry, Sam, we're out of time now. That's your 10 minutes.

And Sam, I'm sorry, Don K. Preston, it is your turn now to cross -examine

Sam Frost for 10 minutes. Okay, 10 minutes? Yes.

Okay, here we go. All right, Sam, in Isaiah chapter 25, which you just cited, the prediction of the destruction of death comes at the time in which the temple and the city would be destroyed,

Isaiah 25, 1 through 3. Can you please explain how you divorce the destruction of death from that context?

Well, it doesn't say in that context. What he's talking about in Isaiah 25, 1 through 3, it doesn't say in that time or at that time.

None of those things are there. It's stating that on this mountain, the

Lord will prepare a rich feast of food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine, not just Israel, a best of meats for the finest of wines.

On this mountain, he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, not just Israel, the sheet that covers all nations.

So this is a, this sheet or this shroud, he will swallow up death.

That's the identification of the sheet. That's what the shroud is. Death covers all people.

The sheet covers all the nations. And this sheet, death, is going to be swallowed up for all peoples and for all nations.

And it shall be no more. That's what it's saying, which is exactly

Revelation 21, which is what was to be expected, for example, in Romans chapter 8, when creation, which is under the sheet and under the cover and all the nations, when death, which entered in through the man, which covers all nations, for all and Adam died.

So this is the universal language. This is applying not just to Israel, old covenant

Israel. This is all peoples. All nations are infected by this death that will be swallowed up in victory, thrown into the lake of fire.

And then right after that, John in Revelation 21 quotes or alludes to this very passage,

Isaiah 25 and quotes it, death shall be no more. It is no more.

It's gone. It's thrown into the lake of fire. That's its ultimate destiny. Or as Paul would say in 1

Corinthians 15, which he also quotes Isaiah 25 in that passage, uses the word, he will destroy death, not just for some people.

He's going to destroy it for all people, all nations, both the dead, great and small will stand before God.

The resurrection of the just and the unjust, the unjust are going to be raised from the dead too.

Death is going to be removed for them too. That can't be a spiritual death unless you want to apply universal salvation.

It must be the death that we all experience. That we all are fearing right now with this coronavirus.

What Paul talks about with fallen asleep, those fallen asleep. What does he mean by fallen asleep? Sleeping in the best of the earth.

Well, go visit a cemetery. And that's what he's ordinary language, audience relevance.

That's what he's talking about. Why are they mourning? Are they mourning over those that have spiritually passed away?

Or are they mourning over those that have physically passed away? That's the that he's talking about there.

And this is the promise that is being fulfilled in revelation 21 when that happens.

And it's quite obvious to me that hasn't happened. Therefore, the second coming did not happen in 70

AD, or we would have gotten a better witness of it than what we've got right now. Okay.

Obviously at home in them arguments don't prove anything. And let's go back to Isaiah chapter 25.

And since you have denied that any of this, this destruction of the city and the temple, there's no in that day reference.

Well, Isaiah 25, nine says in that day, which goes back to the antecedent, which is refers antecedently to the previous verses.

And the previous verses are tied together with the connective particles. And, and, and so please explain to me, my question is since this day of salvation, since this day of the messianic banquet, since this day of the salvation of Israel is in that day.

And all of that is connected to verses one to three, which is the time in which the temple and the city are turned over to foreigners are desolated.

Please explain for us how you can divorce the destruction of the temple and the city from in that day.

I don't see in verse nine, we're in that day is connecting to anything other than the immediate verse that goes before it on the mountain of Lord will prepare a feast for rich food for all people, a banquet of aged wine in that day, when he prepares a feast for rich food for all people to the banquet of age wine, and he swallows up death forever.

That's to take that and to refer it back. I mean, why not go all the way back through 24, 23, 22?

I mean, why not? Where do you stop? And so there's no precedent for doing anything like that for taking the phrase in that day, other than the immediate verse that precedes it, the one that comes right before it.

He will swallow up death forever. The sovereign Lord will wipe away all the tears from their faces, and he will remove the disgrace of his people from the earth.

The Lord has spoken in that day when he swallows up death forever. That's all that that's saying anything else or to take that verse nine and jump it all the way back up to verse one.

That's not necessary to do that. I'm certainly not induced to do that.

And there's nothing dramatically in the Hebrew, which I read and that I'm looking at here that would tell me,

I got to connect that to verse one. Are you finished on that?

Yes. Okay. And the continuation here of the little apocalypse, you have time after time after time in that day,

Isaiah 26, in that day, this song would be sung. That is the time of salvation.

Well, that time of salvation is the time of that messianic banquet. That in that day is the day of the coming of the

Lord. In that day is the day of the destruction of Leviathan. In that day is the destruction of death.

In that day is the coming of the Lord out of heaven to avenge the blood of the martyrs.

In that day is the destruction again of Leviathan, which as I have pointed out and here to lead up to this, all right,

I have pointed out repeatedly, Isaiah 27 is explicit and emphatic that this day of salvation, the taking away of Israel's sin quoted by Paul in Romans 11 would be when the fortified city would be destroyed and the temple altar turned to ashes in short bursts.

Now that's directly parallel to Isaiah 25, 1 to 3. So my question to you is, since all of these in that day statements come down and bottleneck in Isaiah 27 as the time of salvation at the time of Israel's judgment, destruction of Jerusalem, destruction of the temple, destruction of the old covenant

Israel, then upon what basis do you divorce the in that day references that I've just alluded to from that time of the destruction of the temple and the city and the destruction of death?

The destruction of Leviathan is the time of the destruction of death, but the destruction of Leviathan is the day in which the city and the temple would be destroyed.

So how do you divorce those elements? By their definition of what they would have meant to anybody reading them.

That's the death that Isaiah is talking about. If I go through Isaiah 24 and 25 and I'm just reading through here, therefore a curse consumes the earth.

Now is that the land of Israel? Because you said heaven and earth passed and that's a code term for the temple and the land.

But all of a sudden here in Isaiah, does it mean the earth here or is it the land of Israel?

Because it says the earth's inhabitants will be burned up and very few left. Are you interrogating me or am

I interrogating you? No, I'm just, I'm thinking out loud here because I don't know. I have to jump and if I follow your reasoning,

I have to jump in between and redefine these terms as they, so that I can fit them into a 70

AD framework. So I have to go back and forth here. For example, here he says he will lay waste the islands of the seas to the ends of the earth.

So is that, I'm thinking out loud, is that the ends of, now which earth is he talking? Is that the land of Israel or is that the earth?

The nations here that he's talking about. He says in Isaiah 26, which we will get to tomorrow, your dead will live.

Their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust of the earth. And then it says the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her.

She will conceal her slain and give birth. Well, that sounds like resurrection. That sounds like the best.

I'm reading this. I'm thinking in terms when death, physical death, when we die, that's reversed.

That's is no more. So it's very easy to say that didn't happen in 70

AD. And we're out of time. We're out of time. And now we're going to another commercial break.

And when we return, each of our debaters is going to have seven minutes each for closing remarks.

And we once again go back to the original order. Don Preston will start with his seven minute closing remarks and then

Sam Frost will follow with his own. So don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back, and now it is time for our closing statements, our closing remarks.

Each will have seven minutes, and we will begin with Don Preston. I just want to first give our email address for those that have questions of either debater, and the time that we have left in this show and the following show tomorrow, we will try to squeeze as many questions in as we can, and don't be too discouraged if your question is not read or answered, because both of our debaters have committed to having a third program, where the entire time of the program, after a summary where both debaters recap what took place during the previous two portions of the debate, the remainder of the time in its entirety will be solely for the purpose of reading and answering the questions sent in by our listeners.

So don't be discouraged if you don't hear your question today or tomorrow, but now, Don K.

Preston, you have seven minutes for your closing remarks. Okay, can you hear me?

Perfectly. Yeah. Okay, very good. All right, we will start.

Now, all right, let me summarize what we have seen. I began with a discussion of 2

Thessalonians chapter 1, demonstrating that in the history of the church, this has been understood as a second coming text, and then

Sam denied that it's a second coming text. That seems ironic when he told the audience that no one has ever seen or spoke about the fulfilled view in the history of the church, and yet he takes a position that is antithetical to the history of commentary in the church.

He told us it was not anything, that Paul was not promising them relief because the persecution increased.

That's not historical. There is strong evidence that all of the Hellenistic cities throughout the

Roman Empire suffered pogroms. The Jews in those cities suffered at the pogrom of the

Jewish war. There is strong documentation for that. So, he tells us that the countrymen of the

Thessalonians were not the Jews. I don't know why that argument would be made. Is it not perfectly logical to say that the

Jews were their countrymen? They were living in their country. They were living in their city, and so I find very little substance to that type of an argument.

I also made argument that the language is very, very clear.

The Lord was promising the Thessalonians relief. The Greek word is anesis. It doesn't mean comfort.

It doesn't mean consolation. It doesn't mean simply rest, as if it's not rest from persecution.

Sam appealed to three or four translations. Now, that's kind of ironic since Sam normally likes to appeal to the

Greek, but the Greek is very clear. Anesis is the antonym of philipsis. Philipsis is pressure.

That was the pressure of persecution, and Christ Paul was promising the Thessalonians, living, breathing

Thessalonians, relief from that persecution when the Lord Jesus is revealed.

When would he be revealed? In the day when he comes. When is that?

When he comes to give them relief. That's what the grammar, that's what the language of the text absolutely demands.

I made an argument from Hebrews chapter 9 and Hebrews chapter 10 that the second coming would was to be in a very, very little while and without delay.

That was completely and totally ignored. It is as if I did not even make the argument.

I made the argument on Matthew chapter 24 and verse 36 because Sam made quite an issue of that particular passage, trying to apply

Jesus's lack of knowledge about the day and the hour of his coming in Matthew chapter 24 and verse 36, and applying it to all the epistolary statements of eminence of the coming of the

Lord. I pointed out where Christ promised that when the Father sent the

Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles and the biblical writers, number one, into all truth, number two, to understand the things that were to come.

I pointed out that Hebrews chapter 10 is one of those passages written by an inspired writer, inspired by the

Father, who knew the day and the hour of the Lord's parousia, and it was the Father who revealed that author to say, and now, in a very, very little while, the one who is coming will come and will not tarry.

I pointed out that Revelation chapter 1, 1 to 3, it was the Father who knew the day and the hour, who was revealing to Jesus, to show to John, to show to the churches, these things must shortly come to pass.

Not rapidly, but soon. These things must shortly come to pass.

We cannot ignore the function of the revelatory Spirit in the epistles, in which, as I pointed out, which

Sam completely and totally ignored, that Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit sent by the

Father, who knew the day and the hour, was inspired to write that Christ was ready to judge the living and the dead, the end of all things has drawn near, the time, literally appointed time, has come for the judgment.

And I pointed out that the only judgment in the context, and we may develop this more tomorrow night, the only judgment in the context is the judgment of the living and the dead.

So that means that Peter was affirming, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit sent from the Father, who knew the day and the hour, that the time had arrived for the judgment of the living and the dead.

I made several arguments on Isaiah 26 and 27.

I pointed out that the time of the avenging of the blood of the martyrs at the day of the

Lord, Isaiah 26 and 19 to 21, at the time of the destruction of Leviathan, Satan, at the time of the salvation of Israel, and the salvation which would flow from Israel, therefore, to all nations, that salvation would be when the fortified city would be desolated.

The temple and the altar would be turned to chalk stone in the day in which the

Lord, or the people whom the Lord had created, would no longer find mercy. I pointed out,

Sam ignored it. That's a direct citation and allusion to Deuteronomy 32, which predicted those things in Israel's last days, not the end of time, not the end of the

Christian age, at the end of Israel's covenant age. The language is emphatic.

It is parallel with Isaiah 25, 1 to 3, that was talking about the time of the destruction of death.

All that Sam could do is say, well, when I read it, I see physical death. I don't see AD 70.

Well, the failure to complete our concepts of the nature of the death and the nature of life from the death with the emphatic declarations of when it was to occur is not proper exegesis.

And so, all in all, I have presented a coherent, a cohesive, and even to some extent, a cohesive, a comprehensive picture of number one, the second coming, which is the time of the resurrection.

I have shown that the scriptures, Old Testament and New, place it at the first century at the destruction of old covenant

Israel. Thank you. Thank you, Don. And now, Sam Frost, please give your seven -minute closing remarks.

Well, first, just a note on the term anesis that Don wants to keep using in 2

Thessalonians 1, 7. For example, in 2 Corinthians 2, 13, Paul says, I had no anesis in my spirit.

I had no rest in my spirit because I didn't find Titus my brother. In 2

Corinthians 7, 5, Paul says, my flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side.

Pretty much, so just, I didn't have any, I wasn't, I didn't have any rest because I couldn't find my brother,

Titus. So, what Don is saying is that at some, on a day in 70

AD, all of the sudden, in a moment, in a flash, all of the

Thessalonians had rest. All of the just, and I want to know when that day was because everything that was troubling them stopped and they had rest.

That just goes without showing. Now, because we know persecution and tribulations have continued.

Now, what we do see here and what I've hoped to demonstrate is that the devil is no longer the devil.

Death is no longer what you thought death was. The second coming is not what you thought it was either.

The heaven and the earth, that's not what you thought it was. Salvation, not what you thought it was.

Resurrection of the dead, which we will discuss tomorrow, you're not even close. Church, 1900 years, you're not even close.

We have seen here and we have witnessed flip -flopping back and forth.

The devil was Leviathan. The devil is old covenant Israel. The devil is a spirit being. The devil was in the beginning and genesis.

The devil is destroyed, but death is not fully destroyed. Death is only destroyed for those that are in Christ, but it's not destroyed for anyone else.

So, it's never really lifted up off all the nations as Isaiah 25 promises, as any ordinary person would read.

And as we've demonstrated in the history of the church and in the history of Judaism, that's how they read it, in their own language.

And that's how they ordinarily have understood it. But not so, does Don Preston. Everything has to fit within a 70

AD framework. And since those old definitions obviously do not fit in a 70

AD framework, we have to overhaul them. We have to redefine them.

We have to make them fit so that it fits the cohesive and consistent narrative of 70

AD, as Don Preston presents it. Now, I also have presented a comprehensive and cohesive narrative that we all experience death and we all know what death is, especially in this particular time that we find ourselves in, because everybody's talking about how to prevent it.

What is this fear of death that people have? Is that the death the Bible talks about again, over and over and over and over again?

Is that the death that you and I relate to on an almost everyday basis with family members and illnesses within our loved ones and those who have fallen asleep?

Is that the death that God is going to swallow up forever and destroy? Is that the death that Jesus died on a cross, physically died and was physically buried and physically rose again in victory, crowned with glory and honor,

Hebrews chapter 2 and verse 8, when he was raised from the dead? Can you relate to that death?

I know I can. I know Judaism does, and I certainly know 1900 years of Christianity, in uniformity, in complete unity, in spite of the massive disagreements that we have within the history of the church.

Yet, from all four quarters of the church, from all walks of life, from all languages, all peoples, and all nations that identify themselves with Christianity and its various expressions, all know what death means, because they read the same

Bible. Now that's a remarkable unity, in the face of the fact that we have also a remarkable diversity and disunity among us, but yet we all affirm this.

And so what Don would have to say, and what he's prepared to argue for tomorrow, is that we're all wrong.

Every single one of us. And for 1900 years we have been wrong. This isn't an issue about a theological discussion as to what justification means, which is a discussion that has happened from the letter of Clement, all the way through John Huss, all the way through Wycliffe, and the low lords, and the

Wilbentians, all the way to Martin Luther, they were having that discussion. No, we're questioning what death means.

What actual death means. And Don's saying the church's definition of it, and what the church hopes to be redeemed from, is false.

It's wrong. And every single member has been wrong. I find that admission to be quite arrogant.

What is taken away is what Paul says here. I consider that our present suffering, and we all know what that means, we can all relate to that, are not worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us.

The creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed, for creation itself is subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Not only we so, but we who have the Spirit's firstfruits, inwardly grown and wait for this hope.

Now in this hope, the second coming, and all that comes with it, we are saved.

But hope that is seen, if it's happened in 70 A .D., is no hope at all.

For who hopes for what he already has? And if 70 A .D.

is correct, and the hope has already come, what are we hoping for?

With that, I rest. Okay, thank you, Sam. And now we have a question.

Let's see here. We have a question from Lazarus. I'm sure it's not the

Lazarus that we all remember from the scriptures. From Waco, Texas. And Lazarus has a question for Don Preston.

Why is there no trace of full preterism post -8070 in history until Robert Townley in the 1800s and Max King in the 1970s?

And Don, you have a minute to answer, and Sam Frost, you have 30 seconds to respond to his answer.

Well, in the first place, we do have some traces down through history. Henry Hammond in the 16th century, commenting on 1

Corinthians chapter 15, said there's little doubt whatsoever that this passage—and by the way, other commentators have taken the same view.

Mike Bull, I think a friend of—modern -day friend, obviously—of Sam Frost even says that 1

Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 has been fulfilled. But anyway, back to Henry Hammond Grotius, the great, great

Dutch philosopher and Bible scholar, took a full preterist view on 1

Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. So it's simply not correct historically to say and to claim that there was no trace of preterism until Robert Townley.

There have been, as a matter of fact, have been a number of people—and let's not forget that even in the early church writers—and let me make sure that I'm clearly understood.

I'm not affirming that any early church writer was a full preterist. What I am saying is that there are full preterist statements, whether they solve the implications of it or not.

Okay, we're out of time. Okay. And Sam, you have 30 seconds to respond. Well, like Don's admission that there were no full preterists—we don't have any—that there's simply just no documentation for the time that the brightness of the glory of the presence of God himself in the light of Jesus Christ appeared on earth, and there's no recording of it.

As I've stated, the history of eschatology within the Church is boiled down into three questions.

What has been fulfilled, what is now being fulfilled, and what is to be fulfilled? Now, various verses are used in various ways in various places, but those three questions remain.

The full preterist, the hyper -preterist, he doesn't have the answer. And we're out of time.

We have, I guess, time for one more question. We have

Spencer in Atlanta, Georgia. And Spencer says, near the end of a 2015

Iron Trump and Zion radio program, Chris asked you—oh, this is for Sam Frost—Chris asked you to give the audience some verses that would be the death knell to full preterism.

The answer you gave was Philippians 3, 20 -21. But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a

Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be his glorious body.

You presented this verse to counter Don Preston's view that the body Jesus has today is not human.

Could you go into detail how this would bring down full preterism? And you only have a minute to do so.

Yeah, perhaps a little tomorrow on that. My reaction to that verse is that Paul is comparing their present bodies, which we can all understand what the word body means—I don't need that re -explained or redefined to me—is being compared with the glorious body that now exists in heaven.

So he's making a comparison of their bodies to the body of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of the

Father, who is in heaven. And that our lowly bodies will be like his body currently now is at the right hand of the

Father. So clearly, the body of Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, glorified at the right hand of the

Father, our bodies will be like his body. And so for the comparison to work there, both must exist at the same time.

That's what a comparison is. And it is a comparison in Greek. So our lowly bodies are not yet like his glorious body, which is at the right hand of the

Father. But it will be. Very quickly, that's what he's saying. And Don Preston, you have 30 seconds.

Well, I hope we do discuss this passage tomorrow. First of all, there are an awful lot of assumptions that are going on.

Sam says we know what the body in Philippians chapter 3 is. He assumes that everyone thinks that it's the human physical body, but the contrast in Philippians chapter 3 is between the old covenant body of Israel, her old covenant body which was one of corruption, which was one of futility, with the new covenant body of Jesus Christ.

And let me remind everyone, as far as Paul is concerned, there is but one body. And that body is the church,

Ephesians chapter 4, and Ephesians chapter 1. So it's very presumptive, very presuppositional to say, well, we all know what the body is in Philippians chapter 3.

And there's an awful lot that I'd like to say insofar as the body and the body, of humiliation in Philippians chapter 3.

And so I hope we have a good bit of time to research that or to discuss that tomorrow night.

Okay folks, well, we're out of time. And tomorrow, day two, we are going to be addressing the theme, the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future.

Sam Frost will affirm that thesis, and Don Preston will deny it. I want to thank you all for listening, and I hope you all remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater