Discussing Morality with Michael The Canadian Atheist

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host, from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport.

And we're live, and this is not Andrew Rappaport again. This is Pastor Justin Pierce, and a minute from now, we'll have

Michael, the raging Canadian atheist, and we'll have

John, the Atomic Apologetics fella, John the

Cluck Commander, and Wilkinson, he'll be in here. We may have

Anthony Andrew on a little later. I mean, Andrew's feeling under the weather, but so he may or may not be on.

So we are Striving for Eternity Apologetics Live. I want to welcome everybody to the show tonight, and I hope that we just have a really good discussion.

We're going to be talking about morality and just kind of everything that goes with it, and we're going to look at it from, you know,

I guess every perspective we can look at it and talk about it from. If anybody has any questions, thoughts, comments, please feel free to put it in our comments section.

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So without too much ado, hopefully everybody has weighed in and had all their opinions, and everybody's all set with the voting fiasco and scandals and all the fun stuff going on with the voting, and so we can all rest assured that everything's went good and fair, and everybody's happy, right?

John, what do you think about that? Everything's looking good. Well, I was going to say before I jumped onto the show here tonight,

I tripped over a box full of a thousand ballots for Biden, so yeah.

Yeah, I've got a couple over in the side. We're going to have Michael jump in. Michael, Michael, how you doing, brother?

Well, I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me back. I think this makes the fourth time, and I've never been invited back anywhere four times, so that's exciting, but I think the one thing

I have to correct you on, I think there is actually another guy that is the raging atheist, and I'm way better looking than he is, so that's saying something, but yeah,

I rage sometimes, but I don't think I've ever, I don't think I've raged here at all. I think we've been pretty good in our talk so far.

No, I don't think, no, it was just being facetious. Oh, okay. Yeah, no, absolutely not.

Raging is, you know, I haven't heard any ranting or raging going on yet, so, and that's much to your credit because, you know, we've done everything possible to try to see if we could get you to start writing.

I'm just kidding. Yeah. You know, and the thing is, you got to think about it, you know, for everybody's watching, there's a reason why

I've asked, you know, Michael to come on and Andrew and Anthony has asked Michael to come on, and we've tried to, you know, converse back and forth.

Andrew was on your show three weeks ago, is that right, or two weeks? Two weeks ago,

I believe, yep. Two weeks ago, and I listened to that, and it went really well, and there's a reason that, you know, we've asked you to come on and that we want to talk, and, you know, this is

Apologetics Live, so we're coming from an apologetic standpoint. We want to discuss the things of God and talk about, you know, just apologetic understanding how to defend the faith, how to have reasonable discussions with people that are reasonable people.

I mean, we all know... The Bible tells you you have to do, right? Yeah, and I mean, there's a point in time when a person is unreasonable, you can't go farther, but, you know, we've had very good conversations, you know, it's like you pointed out in your show there, you and I had a great conversation.

Unfortunately, we didn't record it, that was pretty stupid. Yeah, that was, in hindsight, always being 2020, that was unfortunate that we didn't.

Yeah, we should have recorded that, because that was like probably the best conversation you and I will ever have with anybody ever.

Man, we didn't record it. Yeah, it's too bad, you know, all the conversations with all the politicians don't get recorded and then aired.

Yeah, yeah, that's a whole... You know, we have been watching up here as well, and, you know, because it's important, and it's been interesting to say the least.

When I was chatting with Andrew just towards the end of it, I said it'll be, you know, coming back on on the 5th to hopefully celebrate a democratic presidential win.

And while we can't say that tonight, I think we will be saying that. And if for no other reason than to re -enter an era of actual safety for the world,

I think it's important, because your current Commander -in -Chief has demonstrated his mental instability, in my professional medical opinion.

All right, so, and the PhD you have on that subject is

Reality Onyx. I hear that, I hear that. So, when he gets the third and fourth

Nobel Prize nomination from other countries for the Middle East piece that has come about, does that have any factor or any play?

And I'm not trying to, you know, throw a little political thing in there, but I guess let's talk about it a little bit.

Does that have any factor or any play in the ideas of, you know,

Orange Man bad or him being a bad person, you know, type thing? A broken clock is right twice a day.

Apparently, it's been right quite a few times when it comes to the Middle East thing. I mean, that's been something that we've been trying to do for, you know,

I mean, I don't know if you've been following the politics here in America, but this is something that has been promised, you know, bringing the, you know,

Jerusalem, making it, you know, the recognizing it as the capital and bringing our embassy there, you know.

I mean, everybody said, oh, it's going to cause World War whatever, three or whatever. And it was like, well, it didn't.

And it actually caused a lot of normalization of stability within. And, you know, the people that have brought the

Nobel Prize nominations for him have said that that was one of the deciding factors that actually brought a lot of stability in the area.

And, you know, good or bad, I mean, that's, you know, truth, truth, you know, and that's part of it.

So, so, yeah, I think we would start to venture into more serious disagreement.

And you said you didn't want me to rage. Well, I don't mind if you rage, you know, I mean, that's fine. I mean, I, you know,

I just, I mean, I just want, you know, as far as honesty goes, you know, well, if we want to talk about honesty, like I said to you before we hit the record button,

I don't know how any one who calls themselves a Christian, especially, especially the current vice conspicuous by his absence through all of this

BS has been Mike Pence. Because even he realizes what's going on, and he's trying to distance himself as much as possible.

Because, because this, this president is lying up a storm. And I thought it was interesting a few weeks back when

I was on with, with Matt, and he said, you know, how, you know, he, you know, he can't lie, right? So, you know, there's this, there's this immediate conflict that has to come up.

You know, you have to look at the things that he's saying, and you identify the lies that he's saying.

And so I, in my personal opinion, if you, if you're calling yourself a

Christian, I'm not sure how you reconcile your support for someone who is so,

I am more Christian than Donald Trump. Okay. Well, I mean, I'll accept that as an answer because he's not a

Christian. I mean, and so, I mean, you know, if that's, if that's the answer, I will accept that because it's let's talk about something like way less controversial, like morality.

Hey, well, that's part of it though. You know, you know, you think about it, you know, when we talk about that let me pull in.

I'm not sure who Danny is. He may be in and out real quick. John, well, he's gone.

Okay. So we had a, we had a fellow that jumped in for a moment,

Danny, and then jumped right back off. So apparently he didn't want to actually be on. He wanted to just say hi. You said something interesting a few, you said something interesting a few minutes ago, and this is something

I'd welcome if, is if you do have listeners, I don't have the YouTube thing going in the background because I would just find it.

I know I'd find it distracting. Yeah, absolutely. But if, if you do have listeners who have questions,

I'd love to speak to them. And, and like I said before, if you do have listeners who want to come on the,

I think anyone who listened to the, to our, to my discussion with Andrew, or I guess our discussion, because Dean was here too, would be able to understand that.

I mean, I can have a discussion with anybody. So if you've got, if you've got listeners that want to come on, I'd love to hear their story.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, one thing, Donnie, Donnie Jacks, he's posted a question here and maybe we'll start with the, the moral question.

Let's start with this one question. Why is lying wrong from, from Donnie and I'll just let you, you know, give your perspective on it and, and, and then, then let's define, you know, what is morality?

Sure. Is, you know, is it absolute? Where, where do you get your absolutes from things like that? Let's start off.

I mean, we're 10 minutes in, so we got plenty of time. Sure. Okay. So why is lying wrong? Cause it has the potential to do harm.

Okay. So it has the potential to do harm. So it's always wrong. No, it's not. No, it's not always wrong.

And it's interesting because, and we talked about this kind of briefly before Matt, Matt touched on it a little bit and there's been, you know, there's, there's lots of other little questions that get popped up.

It, it is, it is clear that there are, there are times when lying is the most moral thing you could possibly do.

And everybody's heard about, you know, the Nazis in the attic thing, right? Everybody's heard that.

And there, there were a couple of interesting kind of quips given to that, like, oh, well, you know, if you, you know, if you just say, well, you know, are you hiding

Nazis? Well, no, I'm not hiding them here under my shirt. And you're not lying. Then that's, that's, you're drastically coloring outside the lines.

You know, Nazi show up at your door with MP40s in hand and say, you know, are you, you know, are you harboring

Jews here in your house? The only thing to say is no.

Anything else is morally reprehensible. And from a, from a, a

God who would apparently be, be judging this, let's assume for a second that everything that you believe is true.

And let's say for a second that I'm in that situation, right? And I, and the only thing riding between me in an eternity of eternal torment versus an eternity of eternal bliss is whether or not

I protect those people or whether I tell the truth and allow those people to be killed.

I will, I would spend an eternity in eternal torment, knowing with 100 % certainty that I am more moral than the

God that sent me there. Okay. Well, one must say is in, uh, well, let's, let's say, hold on just a minute.

Uh, let's see. Danny has to jump on here and, uh, Hey Danny, how you doing? Danny? Yep.

He's out. Okay. Uh, something wrong with his, uh, uh, instrument there was, uh, radio.

I saw the picture. Yeah, I saw the picture too. It was there for a second. So, so, um, without, um, going for the, and I have to tell you, to me, that's kind of a straw man.

It's kind of like, I'm building something up that I want to fight and take down. And the reason I say that is instead of you telling me your positive moral position, you went straight towards the negative of I've got to attack

God to make myself better than him. And, and, and what I want to ask that, and the reason

I want to ask that is, um, you, you claimed lying as something that was wrong and claimed that, you know, you put conditionality upon it, said there were things that were wrong about lying.

And yet, instead of defending it within your own worldview, you went to mine, you went to Christian worldview to try to make yourself better than the standard that the

Christian would define. Sure. So what I did there was I stepped inside your worldview to do an internal critique, but you didn't, you didn't bother to use yours.

And what I'm saying is that I think the reason it's being asked this way, uh, from, uh, from Donnie, I think the reason he's asking it is from your worldview.

Why is lying wrong? Not from, well, I'm better than your God. So leaving God out of it, can you give a reason why lying is wrong or why lying can be justified in whatever situation and is not wrong?

Okay. So, okay. So pull your God out of the previous example that I used. Okay. Okay.

And, and I did say before, cause it has the potential to do harm. Okay. So, and, and this is where, and this is where the, this is where one of the big differences come in because I talk to believers all of different, uh, faith traditions all the time.

And they'll say, you know, absolute standard, absolute standard, absolute standard, which is interesting cause they don't demonstrate that standard, but whatever.

Um, it, you know, it's, it's not as the re the reality is morality is, is sticky.

It's dirty. It's not just this because one thing, and that's it, because you can look at that situation and I can give you that situation where, where lying is the most moral thing you can possibly do versus another time when, when lying is wrong.

So, you know, did you, did you do this thing? Well, no, I didn't do that thing. Well, that, that, again, that could possibly do harm versus another situation where lying actually prevents harm.

So the hard part is, is that, is that what many believers will try to do is I'll just say, if you just follow this standard, if you just stick inside this box, you're always good.

And you're always right. When that is so clearly not the case because it, and I know that it's, it's tricky sometimes when

I, when I talk to believers and I say, and you say, well, you know, you have to, you have to build up this thing where you try to tear down this

God that you don't think exists. But the problem is, is that, is that when you talk to the believers, they'll somehow, they'll sometimes somehow try to justify doing what under normal circumstances, no one would, no one would ever do.

And, and they try to justify that under the, within the God box. Before we get into the weeds too much, one thing you said a minute ago is let's define morality.

Yeah. Let's what is, what is morality in the, in the atheist worldview? Well, I can't give it to the atheist worldview.

I'll give it to you in mine. Right. I don't speak for, I don't speak for anybody but myself. Well, that's good that you define that because I was going to say, there's a lot of different standards according to, you know,

I guess everybody's got their own standard, right? So I'm not sure that every, I think there are, I think there are large portions of, of the different people who, who don't share the

God belief will adhere to. I'd like to say, well, you know, we'll come to, you know, cause the only thing that to be an atheist, atheism is an answer to a single question, right?

Yeah. Christopher Hitchens said this. Interestingly, he said, he said, I'm an atheist. You can't tell anything else about me.

You can't tell me, you know, you can't tell what my political positions are. You know, you can't tell, you know, what my favorite food is.

Nothing like that. It's, it's, it's a single issue topic. So I read this out before and I haven't written down because it's something that I'd like to read out very concisely.

Cause it keeps me from missing any piece of it. So my foundation for morality is wellbeing.

I define wellbeing as the reduction of suffering to the best of our ability. And at the same time, promoting flourishing to the best of our ability.

And we'll talk about those because that does require some explanation. It also involves avoiding the involuntary imposition of your will onto others who cannot or do not consent.

The application of these things involve using the veil of ignorance as well as consequential ethics.

So that's in the broadest sense that that is how I define morality.

And when I'm looking at any particular thing, that, that is the lens by which I use.

I used to point my morality. One thing that, okay. And, and so you're going to define your morality as that, which propagates wellbeing.

So, so morality. That's one piece of it, right? It's, it's, it's not, it is not singular.

It is all of these things working in cohesion. So you can't just pluck out wellbeing and say, well, you base it on wellbeing.

I base it on wellbeing and other things. And this is what I said before is, it's not just a symbol.

Well, I remember in my conversation with Saiten, he said, he said very plainly, truth is whatever

God says, right? Okay. Well, it's, it's not that simple.

It's not that simple for everyone who doesn't believe what you believe. Okay. Because when someone believes that they can just say, this is the standard

I apply. And, and, and what's interesting is that, and I don't want to monopolize,

I want to make sure that, that, that you're given, given as much as you're getting. It's just not that, that simple.

So how about, so I've defined my morality. Can you define yours? Okay. Well, before we get there though,

Andrew, Andrew Rappaport, he's, you know, our fearless leader. He, he posted on here that you did not do an internal critique because you described a different God than the

God of the Bible. You see, when we talk about the God of the Bible, we're talking about the absolute omniscient and totally sufficient

God who has given us truth. His word is truth. Okay. We don't, we don't go looking for truth and then try to find

God. God is truth and he's the standard of it. And so when he tells us what is moral and right, he gives us what all the standards are for morality and rightness.

So we started out talking about, like, say, for example, lying, the question popped up and we said, lying, and you've given something of a, an argument for you, just, well, actually a foundation,

I guess you could say, not even an argument yet, but something of a foundation for your standard, your standard for what you, you would say, atheism, you know, atheism is.

No, mine, mine. That's what I said, yours. What your standard for atheism is and what your standard for morality is.

And yet again, when you went for your standard for morality, you, you, you turned right back around and said, and no

God, because God, it was because of God without the God hypothesis, without speaking of God in your anti -theism, because we've talked about this before, it's the anti -theism point of view.

I mean, I'm, I'm an apologist, I'm a pastor, but I'm also an apologist for Christ.

Your, your, your, your apologetic is against or not Christ, not God. Oh, and sometimes directly, you know, you're, you're, you're not, you're not being unfair if you say sometimes directly against, you wouldn't be unfair saying that.

And so my point is, my point is, is my standard starts with God.

It doesn't go to God. It doesn't, I don't look for the outside to go find

God. God is the starting point, but, and that's the axiom. That's the axiom. And so what

I have to say is, and there'll be people that disagree with this, but, but I, I really see, and actually

I heard you talking about it on the podcast you did. You know, you're talking about, you know, axioms versus presuppositions.

And as you were talking about those, you, you had mentioned, you know, this is your, you have two foundational axioms you said, and that would be the wellbeing and that would be doing the most good or something along that line.

And if I'm didn't say it exactly right, I think I'm trying to get close. If you want to correct it, that's fine.

Right. Okay. So, well, so the, the two axioms that I start with is, um, reality's real and my, and my, my senses are accurate.

Okay. So how do you define reality within your senses?

Um, and, and I'm, I'm asking this question because what I'm saying is, is with me, with the, and not just with me, but with the

Christian worldview, we have to start with God. We don't start from, to God, from something to God.

We start with God as the final standard. He is the axiom. Okay. He is the axiom.

And, and so here's my argument. Every single one of us alive has an axiom and a presupposition.

Okay. We have an axiom, which is our foundational standard. For me, I am, I, I, I mean,

I didn't go looking for God, God found me. And the Bible tells me that I know that God exists and that, that I am without excuse.

That's the scripture. You actually quoted that, uh, on the last podcast, you know, in Romans. Yeah. In Romans one.

So, so the Bible tells us that we all know. And so when I went from a

Christian standpoint, I'm going to say that our foundational axiom for all mankind, according to the scripture, is that we all have sufficient knowledge of the starting place of God.

And then our presupposition is what defines what we believe about God based upon our, based upon our knowledge and understanding as we grow and learn.

And that is what we bring our, our worldview, either a biblical or a naturalistic worldview.

So for me, as a Christian, I say, as God has revealed himself to me through the special revelation of the

Holy Spirit, through the power of God, through the Holy Spirit, and through the very word of God, as he has revealed it to me and taught me, along with the help that he's given me through other solid teachers,

I can come to understand what morality is from God's perspective and what truth is from God's perspective.

And I try to live my life in such a way that I want to glorify

God by living that out. And for, so for me, I'm looking for the moral issue from God's lens, from the biblical lens, from the word of God.

And so if I'm not mistaken, you're telling me that your worldview lens comes from,

I don't want to say it for you, but maybe I'm, maybe I'm looking at it this way. Say it so that, so that it'll, it'll help me have an understanding of what you understand of my worldview.

Okay. From what I understand of your worldview, as you're telling, telling me, and you've, you've talked about it many times now, from what

I understand your worldview, you're looking from a naturalistic, non -spiritual worldview.

Am I right or wrong? Yeah. And it's interesting. So what you said, you said a lot there. Okay. So, so we start out for, we started, yeah, no, it was totally fine.

Totally good. So we start out diametrically opposed, right? Okay. And I don't think either one of us has any delusions that, that either one of us is going to jump the fence tonight.

Right. I think you should, but go ahead. So, and I would, if you could show me stuff, but sorry, a little poke there.

I know you, you like to do that poke. Yeah. It's fun. My wife's ticklish.

And so I got a kick out of poking her too, but okay. So, so you said that you, you know, you, you start, and these were your words.

You start with God. Yeah. So, so here's, here's what I hear when you say that. Okay. I started with my conclusion.

Okay. Well, I understand you're saying that. Right. Right. I started with my conclusion and then

I followed it up with reading a book that says that the conclusion is true. And then

I talked to other people that, that believe the same things that I do. And lo and behold, look at this, this truth that I have.

And so what, and, and I, I can't, I can't do that. I see it as, and I, this will come across way harsher than I mean it to, but it comes across to me as being dishonest.

And when you start with your conclusion, okay. Because you and I, in some ways we're not that far apart.

Oh, no, we're absolutely right on together. So, and here's why I'm going to say it. You started with the same conclusion.

No, I didn't though. I'm going to tell you. I didn't start with it. What conclusion did I start with?

You started with God. No, I didn't. Yes, you did. You actually said at the, at the very first time you came on, you actually said that you started out in a

Christian, a nominal Christian home that you were under Christians. You went to church. You didn't start with an anti -theist or an atheist point of view.

You started out with a biblical worldview, even if it was not fully fleshed out or fully gleaned out or anything else.

You started with a worldview, with a biblical worldview, a worldview of God.

And then you went from there to, to atheism. Right. Okay. So, and, and the reason, okay.

And the reason why that's not accurate is because I started out as a child who was told certain things, right?

Now, from an evolutionary perspective, it's, it's wise for us to, to believe and trust in the things that our caregivers tell us, right?

Don't go near the edge. You'll fall. Don't touch the stove. It's hot. Don't run, you know, don't play in traffic, these types of things.

Our caregivers tell us these things and we trust our caregivers, right? So, you know, you know, again, don't touch the stove, you know, don't go too close to the edge.

Don't play in traffic. There's a God. And, and so you, you believe these, you believe the caregivers and I did too.

I believed my parents because they had done all of these other things and taught me all these other things that were so clearly right.

They couldn't possibly have been telling me something that wasn't true. So I didn't,

I didn't believe it as much as I accepted what they were telling me. And now once I started investigating for myself, that's when

I realized, cause I didn't actually have a belief I had. And again, it sounds harsh and I don't mean it to, but I had an indoctrination, right?

I was told these things, I was told these things were true when I started investigating them.

Then, then I realized, then I realized, and again, people say, Oh, you don't, you don't whatever. But I realized that they actually weren't true.

But think about it, but think about it. You just, you just belittled. And I don't mean that in the pejorative.

I understand. I'm speaking of it. You know, Christians, you guys start with God and then you go read a

Bible and then you go get, talk to other people and you get evidence and you get all these people to come together.

And Oh, lo and behold, you're a Christian. And yet you did the same thing. And you went the other way you went and you found

Dawkins and you found Hawkins and you found everybody else. You could even the people that will sit there and, and sit with you and affirm your atheism because it's confirmation bias.

You want to be around people who are glad to, to, to, to cuss out

God and argue God and, and vile filth, foul and foreign. And they sit there and say, Oh, look at me.

I'm noble. And I can do this too, because there is no God. And it's just words and it doesn't matter. And this, that and the other. And Oh, I can shake my fist at the one that I don't believe in.

Now you did the exact same thing. You're accusing the Christians of, and, and, but the difference is that the difference here is, is what is the moral outcome?

Now, I mean, you're talking about a moral argument here. You we've started out with this moral argument. We've talked about it, you know, back and forth for weeks, maybe months, you know, and you know,

Matt Slick and you guys had a really great conversation. I'm gonna tell you, I learned so much, you know, I'm just listening to you guys. And I was just, it was incredible to listen to it.

But what I saw here is you were basing your, your assertion. Uh, Danny Kirshner said this with all due respect, this guy's isn't making headway in the way of evidence.

You're merely making assertions based on your own experiences. And, and to be honest, that's what's that's all you have.

You have your experiences and you've backed it up with experiences of other people. You know, you see what

I'm saying? Okay. So, so before we dive two more into the weeds, no, go ahead.

Um, what I'd like for you to do now is to put your definition for morality out there.

Okay. That which God says is moral and right. Those things which God has defined. Okay. How do you, how do you get around the euthyphro dilemma then?

I've never met him. Okay. Are you aware of what the euthyphro dilemma is? I've heard of it, but it's been so long.

And here's where I'm going to go with this before we go any further. You are now throwing out that this guy has this speculation.

Oh no, no, it's, it's, it's not a speculation. Let me, let me lay it out. Okay. Go ahead. So is something true because God says it's true or you did that last with, uh,

Matthew, uh, Matt All right. So is it true because God says it's true or is it true because, sorry,

I, I'm saying it, I'm saying it incorrectly. Um, does God say it because it is true or is it true because he says it's true?

You can't have it both ways. Well, God is truth. Okay. So, so whatever he says, regardless of what it is, is truth.

Well, he's an errant. So I don't, I see, here's my, here's my issue.

You're, you're building upon a presupposition that, that God can't be.

And you're looking for any, any theoretical or philosophical evidence that says that God can't be.

In other words, actually all I did was ask you a question. Okay. But don't, don't act like the euthyphro dilemma doesn't presuppose that God is wrong in some area and therefore

God can't be. No, it's truly just a question. It's not truly just a question because if it was, it'd be just like, you know, what color, what color is your favorite orange, uh, orange juice or whatever.

Let's assume for a second, let's assume that everything you believe is true. Okay. Everything you believe is true.

So is it, is it true because God says it or does

God say it because it's true? It's truly just a question. Okay.

And I gave you the answer, but I gave you the answer. God is truth. Everything he does comes from his attribute.

He is truth itself. He cannot lie according to the scripture. So he's the standard.

Okay. So I don't want to, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Okay. So it sounds like you said that because, you know, because he said it, it is true.

It's both. He is truth and all that he says is true. Okay. I don't think anyone can say anything more arbitrary than that.

Well, that's fine, but that's your presupposition. You've already started with God and now you're looking for a reason for there not to be a

God. And so truth in its absolute sense has offended you.

Truth has offended you. No, not at all. No, no. It absolutely has. You just said, I don't think anything could be more arbitrary than that indicating that something being arbitrary.

I don't find arbitrary offensive. Okay. But you found it objectionable. Well, because you're holding it up as an objective standard and I'm saying it's not objective.

It's wholly arbitrary. Whatever he says. Okay. Whatever he says is, so if he said

X, then X is true. Okay. Now, now, wait a minute.

Now, hold on a minute. What's your standard for truth? Truth is what the facts are.

That's so circular. You couldn't even possibly get anywhere with it. And I'm sorry if it comes across that way, but truth is what we can show to be true, but you can't demonstrate to be anything to be true without truth itself.

You have to start with truth to other. In other words, there has to be truth as a definable standard.

Otherwise you would be standing there trying to say, I'm trying to find truth, but I don't know what it looks like. I'm trying to find truth, but I don't know what it looks like.

I can't define it. So what we have to do is we have to, we have to start with, so, okay, what is true?

Well, it depends on what you're claiming is true. Okay. So we can, so because anyone can claim anything is true.

So it's whether or not you can actually show and demonstrate that this thing is true.

It's like, it's like the story of the celestial teapot, right? There's a celestial teapot circulating around Saturn, but it's too small to see with the naked eye, right?

You can't prove that it's not there because you can't see it. But is it reasonable to think that that thing is real?

If you can't, if I can't demonstrate that that thing is real, you don't have any good reason to think that it is.

So it depends on what we're claiming is true. So like an Oort cloud is okay to claim it's true to justify a way.

Sorry, I missed what you said, a something cloud? An Oort cloud. Oork?

Oort. O -R -C? O -R -T. Oort, I don't even know what that is. Oh, Oort cloud is the atheist, agnostic, evolutionist, um, scientific, uh, attempt to answer the problem of asteroids.

Asteroids? Yes, sir. Comets and asteroids and meteors. Have you ever, have you ever looked into this?

Maybe Jason Lyle has a, has, has a good discussion about this on, on Oort clouds. He actually talks about the fact that, um, it's provable fact that, that, uh, that, that asteroids and comets and whatnot, they cannot last for more than a hundred thousand years because they burn up too quickly.

Uh, there have been, uh, it's been video demonstrated that there have been, uh, many comets and whatnot that have come through, uh, solar systems and, um, they go up towards the sun and they just melt away.

They fall away because they get hotter as they get closer towards, uh, the, the body celestial bodies, let's say.

And as they get closer, okay. So, so these, these asteroids are still out there. Well, if they can't last for more than a hundred thousand years, max based on the biggest numbers of, of, of sizes that we've seen, um, here you have all these asteroids and comets.

So, so that disproves the, the old earth theory that disproves the billions of years theory and millions of years and all that.

And so there has to be a rescuing device that comes out that says, Oh, we have to figure out a way that we can, we can have all these comments and stuff up in the, up in the sky.

And, but we don't have any way we can see it. So we'll come up with a man by the name of Ort, O -R -T. He comes up with this, this, uh, supposition.

He comes up with this idea that trillions and trillions of light years away, so far away that you will never, ever see it.

There is a cloud around the universe of asteroids and comments that are just sitting there and they bump into each other every once in a while.

And when they bump into each other, they just happen to, some of them happen to flow in our trajectory.

And that's why we have, uh, as asteroids still here today. The problem with it is, is that is a rescuing device.

I haven't seen it. So therefore I can't, I can't argue against it. I can't,

I haven't seen it. I can't argue against it. I can't prove it doesn't exist. And so that's what we're talking about right now.

So, okay. So let me get, so Ort isn't a real person and this isn't like a real. Yes, he is. Ort is a real person.

And he came up with that and he was an atheist and he came up with that theory to trust his full name.

I don't remember his full name. It's, it's O -R -T. You can look it up. It's, it's very easy. Just look up Ort Cloud. You just said, if, if that is truly representative of what that guy believes,

I think he's a moron. Okay. I agree with you. Um, but so if we, let's look at Haley's comet, it's the first one that comes to mind.

It comes around every, what, 70, 70 years or something like that. Yeah. Um, how old is it? I, I, I don't have no,

I don't have any idea. You could maybe ask. It's actually O, O -R -T, Ort Cloud.

O -R -T cloud. Okay. Jan Ort. He's a Dutch. Jan Ort.

And, and he came up with this idea of the Ort Cloud and it's a rescuing device. Jan, J -A -N.

Oh, Jan, pardon me. And it's a rescuing device. Yeah. J -A -N. And look it up. Honestly, that's one of the dumbest things

I've ever heard. Yeah. And I'm like, I know it's like your thing, but it's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a human being say.

And I agree with you, but everybody has a rescuing device. Agreed? Um, I don't know.

Well, okay. I, it might be fair to say that every, so if we're talking about you and me, right. Okay. Um, and let's say your rescuing device is

God. And let's say my device would be what? Not God. Is that what you're saying? Well, you start with God and then you walk away from God.

So let's, your, your rescuing device is your presupposition that says not God. Okay. I don't,

I don't presuppose that God doesn't exist though. No, you do. Here's the reason you have to start with God.

We've talked about this before. You have to start with God in order to be an atheist. You have to say there is no

God. Now you could say there is no flying spaghetti monster. You can say there is no, uh, uh,

King Kong or whatever else you want to say. Sure. Okay. And that's fine. And you can throw that straw man out there because people have said that all the time, but we're not talking about those things.

We're talking about a definable God, according to the scripture that billions have, uh, believed in and have claimed to have encounter with and some form or other to the point where you have over 80 % of this nation,

America. And I don't know the percentage, but I know it's high in, uh, in, in your nation that believe only about 30 % they believe they believe in a supernatural, correct.

Okay. So they believe in, in the, in the supernatural and they believe in God and they pray and all that.

So, so all of these, uh, people have these, these, uh, uh, experiences with God and they say, okay, from the scripture, from the, the, the fact of the

Holy spirit that's worked in their hearts and lives, God has revealed himself to us. Okay. So, so we didn't go running looking for God.

The scripture actually makes it clear that none of us go after God. Okay. Actually, if you want to be more accurate, the

Bible is clear that all of us are just like you. We all start by running away from God. So we all start with the same presupposition, no

God. See, but see, but well, so now what you're, okay. So it is, it is not reasonable for you to say that I have something that I don't have.

All I can tell you is I don't have, I didn't start with no God exist. Like I don't have a presupposition that God does not exist.

Okay. I, but that is a conclusion that I've come to.

And, and it's a provisional conclusion because I, because I am,

I am not opposed to being shown that I'm wrong. I'm not opposed to that at all.

So what evidence would it take for you to, you know, go ahead and bow the need right now and come to full repentance?

That's a really good question. I've, I've, I've thought about that. I thought about that a lot and I've heard lots of other different prominent atheists say, uh, one of the, one of the interesting ones, and I'm, to be honest,

I'm not a hundred percent sure how I feel about it, but they're prominent, one of the prominent atheists, I won't name drop.

It doesn't matter because it doesn't matter who it is. Uh, they said, I don't know what it would take for me to believe, but God does.

And so it's up to him to, to show me in a way that would, because he is the only one who knows what will be convincing to me now.

Okay. That's a good answer. That's a good answer. Now, I'm not even sure how I feel about that.

Cause I feel like it's a little evasive. Okay. But, but I've spent a lot of time wondering because I've, I've read the

Bible. Like I've read, I've, I've still reading the Quran. It's really hard to read.

Um, I've read, uh, the Bhagavad Gita. I've read, um, you know, all kinds of different, uh, holy texts

I've studied with lots of different groups of people. And so I've, I've spent a lot of time searching and I look at the things that they say, and I look at how they look at how they conform or don't conform to reality.

And I keep on asking myself, you keep on asking myself the same question and the best answer

I can come up with right now, the most direct answer, which will be the most unsatisfying is

I'm not sure what it would take to convince me. Um, I, and it's funny because if I think about what, uh, the, the, the

Bible says, I think it's one Romans one 20 that says, I already know. Um, the reason

I don't put any, any, uh, trust in that because the same book in Joshua 10 said the sun stood still for a bunch of hours and that's not possible.

Well, so wait a minute, hold on just a minute. Not by us, but by God, it would be now.

Hold on just a minute. I agree. It's physically impossible. Okay. Okay.

However, in the fact that it did right, because the scripture says it did, it begs the question though, you have to, you have to assume that the

God exists in order for that to like, so if you're prepared, if you're prepared, you already assumed that God exists.

No, I don't. I'd say you do. And we're going to have to disagree to agree on this or agree to disagree or whatever you call it.

Because here's the problem. You can't say you're an atheist if there is no God.

Okay. And here's the problem. You are starting, you are okay, but you've defined it already.

You said you do not believe that God exists. No, I believe God doesn't exist. Okay. You're an anti -theist.

In other words, you're an apologist against God and you're wanting to stand against him, the

God you already know exists. And yet you're suppressing the truth. Okay.

Fine. If you, if you have a problem with that, you're going to also have a problem with the fact that this God that we believe in says that all of us have hardened hearts, that none of us will believe unless the father draws us to himself and that we are all dead in trespass and sin.

I actually heard you say you had that argument. So, but you just said something really interesting. So, so there's nothing

I can do anyway. So what I want doesn't matter anyway, because if this God doesn't grant me grace,

I'm screwed regardless. Okay. So the question I'm going to ask you is this. You just said that though.

Okay, fine. I, and I, and I don't take it back, but I want to ask you a question. So what does it matter? What does it matter what

I think? See, he doesn't grant me grace. If he doesn't grant me grace, I'm done. So he owes it to you.

No, he doesn't. Okay. If this thing exists, that's an interesting question.

Does he owe it to me? Well, of course you don't. I don't know. I don't know. You see, you, the problem is maybe not, maybe not, but the problem is, is, is you,

I just a minute ago, I asked you is I asked you the question. My, my, my discussion with you was this.

Sure. What would it take for you to acknowledge the existence of God and bow down and worship him?

And I said, I don't know. Okay. But the problem is, is as we've talked about, you start with the presupposition of God.

We both did. Okay. And I start with God. That's fine. But we both did.

It's not, not according to my opinion. It's according to the word of God. The God of the word says that, okay. He tells us that we all start there and we are all rebels against the

Holy God and it is God himself that must grant us grace. Okay. And, and I don't have a problem with that because God doesn't owe it to me or anyone else.

Okay. Okay. But I didn't end there. I said, what would it cause? What would it take for you to bow the knee to worship him?

And you said, I don't know. I'd have to see evidence and this, that, and the other. I asked,

I asked, I said, I don't know. And earlier I said that when we're talking about truth, that it depends on the claim.

Okay. Well, let me ask you a question. Yeah. Has God not given you sufficient evidence? Me personally?

Uh, well, if you want to say personally, that's fine. But according to the scripture, he's given all of us evidence. Right. But the same book that says that impossible things happened.

Go ahead. Go ahead. You know what else he said was impossible. It's impossible for you to believe unless he grants grace.

Right. Because you won't. Nothing I say, nothing I say or do matters. Um, actually here's the thing is, is what you have to realize is you're starting with an antagonistic anti -theist point of view where you're saying, it's okay for me to be ignorant because it doesn't matter anyway.

When the God of the Bible doesn't say that you, if you will, if you will just fall down and confess him that he will just magically give you anything you want, or he'll give you peace and joy and eternity and all that Joelstein stuff.

He doesn't, he doesn't promise you that he doesn't promise you that at all. He says he doesn't owe you anything.

It is by grace you have been saved through faith. Right. But I think what you said is interesting. This there that I started antagonistically because I don't start out antagonistically.

Um, and I think, I think one of the demonstrations of that are the conversations that, that we have had, you actually did say you started from this antagonistic perspective.

Well, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't say you and I I'm talking about antagonistic against God because we all, but I'm not,

I'm not antagonistic. I mean, I've, I've, I've read the Bible. Okay. And, and the, and the, the

God depicted there. Okay. Is, is despicable, despicable, moral monster, according to your standard, right?

Immoral monster. That was, that's what I said. Immoral. Yeah. Uh, I'm from the

South. I am, I am far superior. I am far superior to the God depicted in that book.

And God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. You know, what's amazing about your, you know, what's amazing about the statement you just made.

I knew you were going to make it. Okay. I knew you were going to make it. You know why? Because as much as I like you, and I'll say this, you and I sitting here having a discussion, having, having a wonderful discussion back and forth.

And you've been on here four times, what four or four or five, I can't count. I think it's four.

I think it's five. Anyway, it may be a four or five, whatever it is. We've had great conversations. Okay.

And yet, you know, that lying is wrong. And you've tried to talk about lying as a standard of right and wrong.

I never said lying was wrong. I said, lying is sometimes wrong. Okay. And, but then, but then you tried to give the juxtaposition to say, you know, the, the, the, the

Nazis come barging in the door, right? I use that as an example. And then you said that if anybody was to follow the

God of scripture and, and, and not lie, that they would be immoral, immoral and abhorrent.

And there's other adjectives you used to describe that. But the problem is, is you presented a false dichotomy without critiquing the true

God of scripture. You went to the moral monster, the absolute wicked vile monster, and all these other arguments that you're making.

And yet you weren't standing up on the truth of the scripture. You see, God doesn't make us do something like that.

God doesn't say you go in there and you lie for me. God doesn't say that.

You see what we could have done in this situation was as Andrew said the other day, the last time they talked about this, uh, nonconforming absolutist.

And I, I, I, I agree with this. Yeah. I've, I've heard you have this discussion and it's interesting.

See, see, I agree with this and here's why somebody comes busting the door down there. They've got whatever they want.

They've got all the power. It's the, the, the, you know, so that we're clear, the

Nazi socialist party comes kicking the door down, which they've said they're going to do to take our guns and take our rights.

And, and, and they're going to make sure that, you know, we conform to their rules. They come in and they say, where's your stuff?

You only have two, two positions that you can say, where's your, your, your wife and kids, or where's the not, where's the

Jews that we've decided to kill whoever they are, whatever the situation is, either you lie to them or you're a moral monster.

And that's what I got were as I tried, go ahead, go ahead.

Well, as I tried to talk to you, as, as we were having a private conversation, I said, but that's not the only arguments and the only positions that we could take.

Okay. So there's proximal truth. And as I've said to you, that is a, that, that is a position to take.

It may be weak, but starting from the weakest argument did you see any

Jews come down here? Um, yes. Where are they? Well, they went down this road four hours ago.

Proximal truth. You could, you could say truth based on timing. Okay. They went down this, they went down this road and when they went left that way, does that mean they're not going to kick your door in, bust your teeth down and then go try to find the

Jews? No, they still have the power and authority, but you didn't have to lie. Oh no.

And like I said, I heard you had that. Yeah. Yeah. I heard you had that discussion and it was, it was an interesting discussion.

It kind of sounds like, and again, from my perspective, it's like that.

And again, I had to kind of, I just kind of roll with a thought experiment in my head, in a thought experiment in my head and be like, that, that God is like, don't you think that there's all knowing, all powerful

God would like, would see, would see something like that? You know, kind of clearly like it's, it's like a lie of omission.

Well, but if you don't, but if you don't see a lie of omission as a lie, then maybe it's okay from your perspective.

Okay. But see the whole point is your perspective, my perspective, this perspective, that perspective. Okay. You're talking about reasoning.

I'm talking about objective reasoning, objective truth. I can from, you know, speaking about time.

Yeah. I saw the Jews go that way. Sure. That's not a lie. Cause I did see some go down that way unless I didn't see them, then

I'd be lying. Okay. But if I did see some light going down that way, I could say, I saw him go down this way. And what happens if they bust my teeth in and they knock the door down and they go find the

Jews anyway, I didn't lie. If I say to them, there's none here. And I'm, and I'm there, you and I had this conversation.

There are none standing beside me. You set up your shirt. Okay. Um, there's, there's none standing beside you and whatnot.

And that's what I'm speaking in reference to. I'm still not lying, but you may not like, you may not like the outcome of, of the proximal truth.

Okay. However, I've got another argument. Okay. So my weaker arguments are those

I'm still not lying. I can still stand before my God and feel clean in the sight of a Holy God. Or I can look at them and say, um, no

Abla Nazi, whatever, whatever German. Okay. I don't have to give an answer.

I don't have to submit to their game. And the only reason that I would, and this false dichotomy argument, the only reason

I would is self -preservation and self -protection. And we have seen so many people that have done that for the very purpose of trying to save their own skin and not to seek to glorify

God, take the hit. Okay. Now, now you talked about wellbeing, you know, as, as the foundation, which is the base of the foundation.

It's it's like, but I get it. It's not, it's not one piece. There's more than just, it's more than just wellbeing.

So wellbeing that does the most good. Would we agree with that? Um, for the most people?

No, not, not most good for the most people. Okay. Well, how would you define it? Again, it's, it's, it, so it's, so I'll say here, um, the, the wellbeing based on, uh, the reduction of suffering to the best of our ability, not to the most people in the middle of that, but the best of our ability.

And it, I think you could even break it down where it has to go on an individual basis at the same time, promoting flourishing to the best of our ability.

So we can say Adolf Hitler would have been right if he had gotten rid of all Jews. No, absolutely not.

Well, wait a minute, hold on using your argument. Yeah. Wellbeing go through it one more time.

Cause I'll make sure I don't misquote you. Wellbeing. Wellbeing. Okay. Okay. So wellbeing as the reduction of suffering to the best of our ability and the promotion of flourishing to the best of our ability.

Also not imposing, no, not involuntary imposing will on others who cannot or do not consent and utilizing the veil of ignorance and consequential ethics.

So anyone, so, so, and I've heard this a long time. It's like, well, from Hitler's perspective, he was doing the right thing.

That's so, that's so easily defeated because all you have to do, because it's not, it's not me.

So I have to care about your wellbeing and you have to care about my well, not, not, you don't have to care about me over yours, but you have to, you have to give a damn about me and I have to give a damn about you.

And if we look at it from that perspective, then Hitler, you know, exterminating a bunch of other humans in no way, shape or form did that promote their wellbeing and reduce their suffering.

So let me push back on that and say it's wrong, but you have used your own subjective reasoning to try to enforce an objective truth on everyone else.

And Hitler didn't agree with you. Oh, no. And that's, and that's the thing. And that's the thing is that I I'm not arguing for an absolute objective standard.

Yeah. I'm not arguing for an absolute objective standard. If you don't care about your fellow, about your fellow person.

Yeah. I got nothing. Okay. Cause you're just going to do what you're going to do. And it doesn't matter.

Because if you, it would be way better if you didn't harm me, but I can't make you care about my wellbeing as, as, as a, as a fellow, as a fellow person.

I hope you care enough about my wellbeing to not, to not try to do those things.

And in the same, by the same token, I will care enough about you not to do those things.

Like I don't harm you, not just like for lots of reasons, because I don't want to do these things.

So we have to, we have to have some empathy. Okay. So, but wait a minute, wait a minute, empathy and wellbeing towards others.

Well, before I get to whether or not I agree, I want to deal with this issue from the perspective of wellbeing.

Okay. Okay. So the wellbeing of all of humanity, according to Adolf Hitler was that we exterminate all the

Jews who were in the minority. They were the lesser people. They were the, they were animals.

They were not, they were not, they were subhuman. They were, they were less than property. They were, they were not worthy to be spoken of.

Well, okay. Uh, spit on them, whatever they, they, they, cause they were, they were wicked.

They were disgusting. Okay. And that was his argument is they brought down all of society.

They were the destroyers of all of society. Okay. And his argument that he got the vast majority, not the entire, but the vast, vast majority of, of Germany to, to go along with was, excuse me, was that if we get rid of them, the entire world will flourish.

Okay. That was his argument from an atheistic perspective, because he wasn't about atheists.

Hitler was a Catholic. He wasn't. No, he was not. He used them. And by the way, by the way, uh, by the way, he, he admitted that he was not, he had used them and he said he was.

So I invite everybody to just Google, to just do a Google search of Hitler, 19, uh, 1922

Munich speech. Okay. And I agree with you. He said, he says, he says,

I'm doing anyway, there's a whole, there's a whole long, long section in it. It's hard to read online because when the most popular search that comes up is black written on red, so it'll hurt your eyes.

Um, but anyway, anyway, that aside, um, Hitler, Hitler was wrong.

Okay. But the thing is, is you're saying wrong. Okay. But I just,

I agree on it because of a different reason, because there is a moral absolute standard and you're trying to give a subjective standard that says, according to your definition,

Hitler was wrong. But if he had caused the, the, the destruction of all of Nazi, uh, all of, uh, uh, the

Jews and, and, uh, he wanted to get rid of all the invalid. So he wanted to get rid of the, the, the ones that had, um, uh, just all kinds of different defects, all kinds of crazy stuff.

Yeah. All kinds of stuff. But if he had gotten rid of all those people and allowed the greatest flourishing under the survival mandate, the survival of the fittest idea, if he would have been able to gotten rid of that and, and made these people flourish around the world, would that not have been the greatest good?

No, absolutely not. Um, there are countries right now that are saying it fails the

F it fails the foundation, which is the wellbeing, killing someone.

Okay. Right. Uh, in imposing your, in your will on them involuntarily, someone who cannot or does not consent, it, it, it falls apart right there.

Killing someone is bad for their wellbeing. Do you agree with that? Is killing someone bad for their wellbeing?

Well, as a Christian, I have eternal life with my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ for me to live as Christ and to die as gain.

So I'm not sure where you want me to go here with this for you, for you. I would,

I don't, I don't ever want to see you die. And I want to see you come, come to know

Christ as your savior and Lord before you do die. Because for you, I know what's coming for me.

I have eternal life with my Lord and savior, and I don't want anything bad to happen to you. Now you talk about flourishing in the most good and yet you want to point out, you didn't ask my question.

Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Give me the question again. Was Hitler wrong in what he was doing?

According to biblical Christianity and the word of God? Yes. Okay. So I can say exactly the same thing.

No, you can't. Hitler was, Hitler was wrong because he, he involuntarily imposed his will.

He created, he, he did harm. He, he took, he absolutely destroyed any flourishing that they had.

I can come to the same conclusion that you do. Yeah. And I don't need a God to do it.

Bingo. See what you did is you just said, you said, I have a moral foundation that is above everyone else's and I don't need

God, but everybody has to submit to my foundation for it to be true. No, absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Adolf Hitler was wrong. Was he not? Yes, he was wrong.

Then he has to submit to your foundation. No, he doesn't. He doesn't have to, but it would sure be better.

No, but it would sure be better if again, we have to have empathy for one another. So let's see what's more empathetic.

Okay. Let's see what has more empathy, not killing millions of people. Oh, then what you're doing is you're picking the cherry off of the top of evolution.

And you're saying, I like this cherry. I just don't like the crap. I don't. Yes, it does.

It's survival of the fittest, bud. It's absolutely not survival of the fittest. I'm sorry, Justin.

I like you, but you just demonstrate you don't know what evolution is. I've studied this for a long time.

And all you're saying is you're saying that you have billions and millions of dead things all over the place that have fought and fought and fought and evolved over the years.

And the better lived on the worst died out. And they, the, the, the better lived off of the worse.

Uh, it's the lion and the lamb. It's the lion and the gazelle. It's the one that's the strongest that wins and they fight and fight and the strongest one wins.

And that's the argument here is you're saying, Justin, if what you said, if you, if what you just said was true, there wouldn't be any gazelles and there'd only be lions.

Okay. Evolution happened. Evolution is a change in a little frequency over time. Okay. Evolution happens when there's a selection pressure within the environment.

Okay. And in order for a species to overcome that selection pressure, the, the, the member of that species.

So within the lion pride, so the strongest one wins. No, the, the one who's able to pass on his genes and the strongest wins.

Okay. It's not always the strongest one. Okay. Within, within bird populations, it's the one who dances

Brett. It's the one who dances prettier for the female. So it's, it doesn't have anything to do with strength. Okay.

But hold on. You're trying to throw out a dog, a false dichotomy here. No, it's not.

You're absolutely, you're absolutely the fittest. So it's not just the strongest. Okay. Not the fittest is not always the strongest.

It's the one that's most adapted towards the, the, the survival. Okay. Which is not necessarily the strongest.

Okay. And it can be the prettiest and that's the fittest. And by the way, just so you understand this, everybody, if it's the case of the prettiest,

I'm just going to say that both of us fail. Okay. Yeah, I'm done. Okay. So, so, but here's the argument.

I want you to, I want you to think about what we're saying here. What I'm trying to explain to you here. You're talking about off morality there.

Sorry. I dragged you. Well, no, no, no, that's fine. Because here's the point you're using the cherry on the top of all of your, all of the billions of years of evolution and trying to say that you have all these billions of dead things that have devoured one another, that have outgrown one another, that have survived off of the backs of one another.

And now we have a rise, a risen out of the, the ape -like substrate.

And we're able to come around and say, Oh, now that we have a moral position, we need to go look at the weaker ones and do good for them because of empathy.

That's not at all what I said. Okay. But that's the implication. It's not at all the implication.

Okay. Have you ever seen, seen what happens to the howler monkeys and, and the, I believe it's called the screech monkeys.

I believe it is over in, in Africa, two sets of monkeys. One will, one likes to run up into the, into the, the trees to escape the bigger monkeys who come over and bash the brains out of the littler monkeys so that they can rip them apart and eat them.

I actually watched a video. If you've ever watched chimpanzees hunt. And they're disgusting and they're there.

It's just awful. And we look at it, we go, Oh, that's so wrong. And yet it's not, it's just their natural process.

And yet you would call it brutal and murder and everything else. And so would I. Okay. But looking at nature, we say, that's not a problem, but since we're a part of nature, then why is anything a problem?

If we're just a part of nature. Okay. Well, let me ask you this. Are we not a part of nature?

I mean, you said it last time that we're just animals. Oh, we're demonstrably animals. That's not even up for discussion.

Well, it actually is, but according to the scripture, it is, we are made in the image of God. And if you deny that, okay.

But if you deny, if you deny that, no, actually he's not. But if you deny that we're made in the image of God, then what you're saying is, is that there is no reason for there to be anything.

That's an absolute objective truth. There is no reason for it. No, I said exactly the opposite.

And this is the whole thing. We have to care for each other. Why? And this is why

I said, we have to have empathy for one another. I'm trying to look for why though.

Don't you think that it's important that we have empathy for one another? It doesn't matter what I think. I'm asking you the question.

It doesn't? No, we don't show empathy for one another and we don't care about each other.

That's when these horrible things can, not always, but that's when these horrible things can happen. But when we start with the basis of wellbeing, we start with that foundation and we build on it from there.

So I start out by giving a damn. But why?

Okay. Let me ask you this way. Let me ask you this way. You talked about the fact that the one that's able to propagate their genetic line is the one that's going to survive.

Almost always. Okay. So the best thing for me and for my genetic line is to go kill every single man around me, take their women and force myself to be with them and to have more children so that I can propagate my family line and my genetic line.

That's the best thing for me. And if I do that too, but not according to the standards that you're setting, the standards that you're setting.

Absolutely. Let me rephrase that. According to the subjective standards that you're setting, you have absolutely all the right you want to to state that.

But according to God, who makes us in his image, who tells us to love one another?

See, what you're doing is you're trying to borrow from Christianity to explain your atheism and then leaving your atheism to the side when it comes to this issue.

No, not at all. Because again, so the reason why you going out and killing all your male neighbors and sleeping with all their wives and stuff like that, the reason why -

I wouldn't do it by the way. I wouldn't do it. It'd all hurt me bad. I don't believe you ever would. Okay. I'm not sure you the stamina, but -

No, I don't. No, with my surgery, there's no way. Even if I did, I wouldn't. Just so we know.

The reason why that's immoral is because of the harm and the reduction of flourishing and the cause of suffering you'd be doing to all those people, and not just the men that you killed, but to the wives that would have to see something like that.

Maybe they already have children and things like that. There'd be a ton of harm that you'd be doing and a ton of suffering you'd be causing.

That's why it's wrong. Well, okay. I have two things here

I want to ask a question or whatever. It's kind of question and answer, but it's not really that way.

It's just been discussion back and forth. I think it's hard.

I've heard some people argue, but it's a really interesting point. I've heard people say, when a lion kills a gazelle, is that murder?

I don't think that it's murder. Why not? I mean, lions, it's not like they can choose to go vegan, right?

Biologically, they die. I would say that the lion going in and slaughtering all the babies,

I would say that that's wrong too. Because again, look at all the harm that it's doing.

But they're propagating their family line. Thomas Boehm, he said the question, animals don't typically care about other animals, which is why

I brought up the lion. If we're definitively animals, why should we care about others?

Why should it matter? You see what I'm saying? That's the point. If we're just animals, as Angie said, then why does it matter?

Well, for the same reason. Because empathy is important. If we didn't safeguard each other to this extent, like the reason with societies and laws and all that stuff, if we didn't do that, then we wouldn't have made it as far as we have.

But who cares if we make it? You see what I'm saying? What I'm trying to say is you're talking about,

I hate to say it. John put up here Elton John's circle of life.

And you got to think about it. And I'm sorry, that's funny. But you got to think about it. Why does it matter if we do the most good, the best good or anything else, if all that really matters in the end is,

I'll give you the example. The best example I think I can come up with right now, Genghis Khan killed 200 million plus people.

I mean, it was so many people that you can't count how many people he killed. I mean, I don't even know. I don't even think we have the capacity from a records perspective to know.

Exactly. But he killed so many people. It wasn't even funny. Yeah, it was. Yeah, he was. He was like, he was like a

Moulin X with a sword. He just went around killing everybody. He was a plague now. But here's the thing. He was beloved by the vast majority of the world that he didn't kill, because as he exterminated all these people, as he exterminated all of the enemies, he brought stabilization, brought civilization.

He brought all kinds of moral good for all of these people that were around that he didn't kill.

So was he morally right or morally wrong to have killed the enemies of himself and all the people that were around him?

So I think there's a couple, I think there may be something there that we can't know, because whether or not they were enemies, were they warring?

Like we don't look at, so when a nation goes to war, like rifle war with another country, we don't call that murder either.

I still think it's wrong. I would not have the capacity to have somebody put a rifle in my hand and say, go shoot that person.

Be like, hand it back to me. If you want him dead, you go kill him. But that's just me. Was he morally right?

No, I don't think so. Because again, because of the suffering. Okay. However, the people that were, that he was fighting, were raping, pillaging, and destroying, not all.

I'll grant you, I'm sure they all weren't. Plus, Genghis Khan. I mean, that's what we talk about.

Sure. So the point is, he was within his province as the king, monarch, or whatever you want to call him, of his domain, which happened to be almost all the world at one point in time.

He was in charge of doing the most good. And part of doing the most good was killing the most people that we've ever heard of within one person doing the most killing,

I guess. So my question is, is he morally wrong if the outcome is the most good?

Yes, he is. Because the outcome is clearly not the most good if he's causing all of these other people all this harm.

That's clearly not the most good. Okay. So his punishment should be what? I don't know.

I mean, it's interesting. I've heard the same question posed about Hitler as well, and Pol Pot and some of these other people who've just done unspeakable things.

I don't know. I don't know that. The best reference that I can give is from an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation.

When Picard, when the Enterprise goes to this planet where they find this little, this little, like this tiny little colony, not even a colony, it's two people, a husband and a wife.

And the husband is actually this, not a god, but he's like this incredibly powerful entity that his wife was actually killed by some other species, by a warring faction of some other species.

And so just with a thought, he killed all of them, just with a mere thought.

He extinguished millions of these creatures from another planet. And when he told

Picard this, I'm basically submitting myself to you for punishment. And he said, we don't have a punishment for something like that.

I wouldn't know how to punish them.

I don't think that, it's hard because I don't support capital punishment because, well, a lot of reasons, that's a different story.

So I don't think killing them is the right thing. But they couldn't live long enough to pay the price in other ways, like through incarceration or like even if it was incarceration, so let's say he was, let's say he was 40 when he did all this stuff.

And let's really judge and say he lived to be a hundred, right? So we put him in labor camp or whatever, where he's just got to smash rocks for 60 years.

That doesn't make up for those unspeakable crimes, for the raping, the pillaging, the murder, the unbelievable torment, all this harm, all the suffering and everything caused.

Seems like it's still not enough. So I guess I'm not sure what the best punishment is for him.

So what you're getting at is there is no earthly punishment that would justify or make right the vileness of wanton murder and rape and all these other things, correct?

Not anything that I can think of. Okay. And so here's the point. Genghis Khan, he killed hundreds of millions of people.

He raped one estimate, John post up here, one estimate.

And I've seen this before. He raped one out of five of the women that was in his area.

And the family line, by the way, his family line is traced to kings and to cooks and everybody else all over the world today.

Yeah, don't get me started on the monarchy. I hate the monarchy. Well, but it's everywhere. His family line's everywhere. And the thing is what

I'm trying to get at here is based upon the most good, the best good, the most good, based upon doing what is convenient for the most people, generationally, what's most good for my community is for if I'm the strongest one, the fittest one, the best one, or at least the best in opportunity and wisdom,

I can go and wipe out all the men in my community or in my area and take their wives as Genghis Khan did and propagate my family line and we can build an entire society of my family.

Okay. Generationally, we can build an entire society of my family. We can live at peace and harmony. And we would say, well, that's wrong.

That's wrong. I would say it's wrong because the scripture tells me thou shalt not kill.

That I should love my neighbor as myself. Actually it says thou shalt do no murder, doesn't it? Well, actually it says both.

It actually says do not murder and thou shalt not kill. It actually says both. One being the judicial taking of life into your own hands as vengeance.

The other one being the wanton murder of, well,

Genghis Khan. Maybe he was murdered. But anyway, I have the objective standard of the word of God that tells me these things.

And we're still standing on a subjective standard that you have that says, I think it's this, but Genghis and a bunch of others have said it's a different standard.

This is kind of getting in the mud, but where is the absolute standard at?

Where is the ultimate standard at? I mean, you said lying, for example. It wasn't an absolute.

So you're okay with lying in certain circumstances. I think I made that clear before.

Okay. What do you consider to be lying, for example?

Well, I mean, what do I consider lying? How about Donald Trump? Liar? Yeah.

I almost let a tirade of blue streak slip there.

Absolute dishonest POS. Okay. How about Joe Biden? Oh yeah.

Completely. Yeah. He's lied too. Yeah. Without question. Okay. And so he's the same dishonest whatever, right?

Um, I don't know that I'm, I'm not quite sure to the same level because you can, uh, like there are there, you can do a

Google search on like Trump's lies. Right. And it's, you know, scrolling pages upon pages upon pages.

Um, could you find one for Biden? Probably. And it might be a few pages long. I'm not sure.

Um, but I think it's probably fair to say that Trump has lied more than Biden has.

That might be fair. So lying is situationally murder. Yeah.

And we talked about this before, right? So for example, like, so like, um, do you think there's a difference?

I do personally, but do you think there's a difference between lies like a other lie?

Like, do you think there's a difference or no? No. I mean, I mean, you think about it, you said to do the most good for people and then you say, but a little white lie.

No, no, no. I was trying to get a gauge. I was trying to get a gauging from you. Like, like, so for example, um, and this, this is a, this is a true story.

Uh, my wife and I were at friends, uh, of ours, uh, house and the wife came down the stairs.

This is a true story and said, does this dress make my ass look fat?

And the, the husband looked at her and said, no, your ass makes your ass look fat. Okay.

In that situation, I would have lied and said, man, you look amazing. Right. Cause I wouldn't want to be purposely hurtful to her.

And I would not have a, and I would not have a, you're lying to your wife when you tell her she looks amazing.

Well, if, if, if I, if I actually felt the way that he did, then

I still would have lied in that instance. Let me tell you how my wife would have handled that. Okay.

Just, just so you know, my wife asked me, does, do I look fat in this outfit?

She wants to know the truth. She doesn't want to go out into the world and, and have somebody look at her in a disrespectful way or to think of her being shameful in some way.

And she wants the person that she trusts most in the world to tell her the truth. Okay. Okay. And because I love my wife,

I'm going to say, sweetheart, let's try to find something else that looks just better. Yeah. Same thing.

Right. Well, I would never say the words that you said. Cause that was mean. That would be mean.

But my wife wouldn't ask the question that way either. She's going to be more respectful in the way she's asking the question. Okay. So while you say what

I'm saying, but what I'm saying, what I'm trying to get at here is, is that I'm talking to my wife.

She wants to have a, an honest answer and she's going to give me a respectful question.

Right. So, so, so, so, so picking up on lying, um, what do you consider to be lying?

And here's where I want to say it because the Bible doesn't just say you shall not lie. It says you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Oh, in other words, you're not to present something as true that's not, or present, present yourself in such a way that you're not actually that way, you know?

And, and I mean, and I'm going to call you out on this because I watched your show, you know, yeah,

I watched your show and you, you talked about the fact that you, you're sitting in your bathroom for an hour, screaming, cussing, yell for, before you come on here with us, us, us guys, and you're screaming and cussing.

And, and I listened to your show and the, you know, you have your wife come on and she, you know, the, the, the, the vulgar and vileness that she presents and stuff, your vulgar and vileness.

And you say, you said to Matt that you, uh, the other day, he said, well, it's just words. Well, it's obvious that you don't believe that it's just words, or you wouldn't care to present yourself in such a way that you don't cuss in this environment.

Oh no, don't, don't have any delusions. The only reason I don't is, is there's two reasons.

Okay, good. Go ahead. One, out of respect for the channel and the person I'm speaking to.

Okay. Okay. And two, you wouldn't have me on here if I did. Okay.

But see, here's the thing. Matt Slick was having the discussion with another atheist, just a few, uh, I want to say last week.

Uh, and I can't give you the exact date. I don't remember his name. And I said, he's a young kid that was just, he was just ranting and it wasn't like he was trying to have a discussion.

He just ranting. Okay. Every time, you know, he got a moment, it was GD, GD, GD, uh, everything that he could say.

Okay. Tried to get a rise out of Matt. Okay. Uh, and he was trying and he was just like, okay, so what?

But this man was being who he was. He wasn't trying to present himself in a light that he didn't actually believe he was showing himself for who he is.

Now, I don't want you to stand here and start screaming and yelling, cussing, but I know that you know, there is a moral truth that screaming and yelling and cussing has, there's something wrong with it.

Otherwise it wouldn't matter what words you said at all. It wouldn't matter at all.

No. And that's the problem is that I, I don't think it's wrong, but I believe you think it's wrong.

And that's why, and that's why you can go to, and anyone listening to this, anybody watching the stream, you can go to, uh, you can go to look up our podcast and every episode, with the exception of last week, cause

I actually forgot to do this. With the exception of last week, every single solitary conversation that I have with a

Christian, I don't. And I, and I don't do it for the, for the reasons that I said,

I don't have, but I, but don't have any delusions. Like it's because of, it's for those reasons.

I don't do it even with Kent Hovind. Like, you know, I'm, I'm still, even though I think he lies a lot.

Um, I, I don't do it out of respect for him, but, but that's why, but in my, in my, in every other episode, yeah,

I tear up a strip and, and I don't look at it as anything, anything.

I certainly don't look at it as a moral. Um, and that's cause that's just the way I am.

And there's actually, there's actually studies out that say that people that swear a lot have a higher mental, uh, mental, uh, intelligence.

I'm not sure that that's true though. I, I think, uh, I think you actually know that there's a moral issue in it.

And the reason I think you know it is because you can choose not to say certain words that you know are morally offensive.

And the reason is it has nothing to do with the biological, you know, outcome of this lion here and that lion on the other end of the video.

You know, it's, it's not these two animals that disagree with one another cause we just fight it out physically and whoever's the stronger wins.

Okay. And then I would submit to you or you were submit to me, but we have a standard that says it is wrong.

I mean, the scripture itself tells us, let no vile thing proceed from out of your mouth.

Let, let none of these evil things come from out of your mouth. And the Bible makes it clear.

Ephesians four 29 says, let no corrupting talk come out of your mouth. But that is, which is good and building up as a fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear not now question.

Sure. What is morally wrong with outdoing one another and loving good works with showing a generosity and grace and mercy.

You see, you're talking about doing the most good. Right. Okay. But here's, here's my most good.

Okay. My most good is that I can go to your channel and you're the same person there as you are here, because I know that you're not trying to hide a facade.

You're not trying to pretend to be something you're not because that's called the hypocrite. Okay. And I'm not trying to be mean to you, but I just want you to understand as, as a matter of respect, because I like you because I like you.

Okay. You know, you actually said that your, your wife and I'm, I'm, I'm not,

I'm not belittling your wife, but I'm that your wife looks at you and says, you really want me to read this introduction?

Exactly. Cause she was, she was, she was, you know, you'd said that she was uncomfortable with it.

No. So I don't know. And it's funny. I thought about that a little bit. And I actually, and I spoke to her afterwards and it was really like, you know, do you want me to read this?

And I'm like, yeah, because, because to me, and, and I think I, I think I went into the details with Andrew as to, as to why.

But it's interesting. And it's not so much because of that. I mean, she, and then

I have her come in here and defend herself. But, but I don't think it's, it's necessary.

There are times when, when she does, she has an interesting saying.

She says, sometimes I let the F flag fly. And I think

I do too. I do it. I do it much more than she does, but it's interesting. I want to go back to something you said a second ago and ask you a question.

So you said that you, you think the reason I do it is because, because I know, so I told you why

I don't do it. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Do you think I'm being honest with you?

When I say, this is why I don't do it. I think you want to show yourself in the best light.

No, the reason I don't do it is because of why I said, I don't do it. But okay.

But are you saying that that, are you saying that you don't care if you show yourself in the best light? No, no.

That's why you're on here having a conversation with me without getting mad and cussing. People can, people can look at me however they like.

I'm sure the live chat is doing that now. Which is cool. I don't need,

I have no, no, you can't please everybody. And I, and I don't care if everybody likes me or not.

Um, there will be people who might look at this and go look at a couple of the back episodes and 35 seconds into it.

They're going to be like, bah, stop. I can't possibly listen to that. And that's cool. It's not for everybody. That's why like it's, you know, like the podcast says we carry the explicit tag for a reason.

Yeah. And if you don't like it, don't listen to it. But the reason I don't do it, it's not to portray myself in the best light.

Okay. It's not, okay. It's out of respect for the people I'm talking to. And it's, and it's true because if I didn't respect you, yeah, you'd know it.

And I understand that. But do you not see that that all points to there being a moral authority higher than you?

No, not at all. Then there shouldn't be a problem with you saying the N word and the C word and every other word, because guess what?

It's all just words and none of it matters. And in that worldview, I don't want to be offensive.

And I went into why there are differences between those with Andrew. So I'm not going to do it again. I understand that.

But what I'm, what I'm getting at, I understand that. And, but what I'm getting at is not only is bearing false witness wrong, but there is an objective standard as to what it is and why it's wrong.

Well, so, so, so Christians claim. Yeah. Okay. But the point is, is I've not only claimed it,

I've demonstrated it and shown it even in your own, in your own world. Uh, I didn't say

I demonstrated God. I said, I demonstrated the moral standard here. God's the standard. God is the standard.

You said you demonstrated the standard. Don't have God's standard. It means you will have demonstrated. I demonstrated the moral standard here of the word of God.

Well, the word of conscience, do you have a conscience are true that can't be true according to your worldview?

No, according, according to reality. Okay. Define reality. That which is real.

Define reality. I mean, reality is that, which is real, but by what, but by what standard are you speaking of reality?

And how can you define reality in a world where everything is subjective?

Uh, everything isn't subjective reality. And it is objective.

Like you believe reality is real, right? Because I have an objective standard that's over and above.

Do you, do you trust your senses to a degree, to a degree?

Right? Because sometimes you can, you can maybe hear something that's not there, you know, but, but essentially your, your senses are reliable, right?

Like you see this, right? It's a pen, you don't, it's a giraffe. You don't think it's a giraffe, right?

Well, okay. Going down the road. Yes. I agree that I have a objective standard that shows in my worldview, why

I can trust reality, morality, logic, reason, and all of these things while I can trust what is morally right and wrong.

What I'm asking you is based on a purely materialistic worldview. How is it that you can even say there is right and wrong?

Well, we already talked about this. My, my, my wrong is what I've said three or four times.

Well, I understand what you're saying, but what we've done, this extra thing into it and it is, and it's like I said to Matt, it's superfluous.

We don't need it. I can, I, I like my shirt says today, good without God, I don't need anything else to be good.

I start with my foundation. Okay. But it's yours. Okay. But it's not at all.

And I, and I, and I hope that other people give a damn and if they don't, there's nothing

I can do about that. But wait a minute. But giving, giving a darn in the worldview you're talking about is subjective.

And if it's okay for the BLM rioter that was up stabbing the people in the back on video the other day, it's okay for them in their worldview because their greater good is for them to get rid of all of their enemies under whatever reason they were.

Okay. That was their reliable truth that they could say, it's the greater good for humanity to go kill all of our enemies.

At least this, this group that we disagree with, then their truth is the standard of truth for them.

And your truth is a standard of truth for you. And there is no objective was, was there.

And I would stand alongside you and condemn that action. Okay. But the stabbing of that person, did it affect their wellbeing?

Absolutely. Did it do them harm? Absolutely. Did it impact their flourishing? Absolutely.

That's why I wouldn't do it. So the gazelle that the lion killed, did it do, did it? We talked about this before.

I don't, I don't think that, I don't think that a lion killing a, like, it's not, like I said, the lion can't eat vegan.

But you, but no, no, no, hold on just a minute. You can't, you can't know that for sure. First of all. Well, yeah, we can anatomically.

We know that. Okay. But no, you, you can't know that for sure that no lion can ever eat vegan food.

They're only eating. They can't live on a vegan diet. Okay. Okay. I don't know that.

Maybe you do. I had a, I had a, I had a long discussion with a, with a friend of mine who's a veterinarian before I switched our dog over to a raw diet.

Okay. And so like, it's, it's well established within biology that, that carnivores like that.

Like, so now my dog eats a raw diet, basically where they take chickens and hunks of stuff. They just put it in a grinder and it goes into a, into a bucket and then into a bowl.

And it's the most healthy thing for them because that's what they would eat if they were in the wild. Might they eat some like do dogs eat grass when their stomach's upset?

Sure they do. Right. But if all you feed your animal is vegetables, if all you feed your dog is vegetables, it's going to die.

So you have a dog, you have a dog, how vile that poor thing. It wanted to be out in the wilderness and out, run around the wild and the great that I have wouldn't survive.

But you're missing the point of the argument. You're missing the point of my argument. You've now just taken something into as an animal that was in the wild some point in time, and you're now controlling it.

My dog wasn't, wasn't born. It wasn't taken from the wild. Generationally it was. General, no, not even generationally.

Are you saying that it doesn't have a generational lineage? No, what I'm saying is, is that, so it's a soft coated wheaten terrier.

Okay. Okay. So it's, yeah. Which has, yeah, exactly. Oh man. I'm sorry.

You can't see this. You can't see this. Angie says a slave owner. No, I can see it.

Okay. So I guess I have four depictions of Satan in my house too. Oh yeah. I saw the snake.

That was awful, man. That was, that was me. Okay. No, actually, actually now here's what got me.

I'm going to divert just for a second. We're an hour and 41 minutes in and this has been going great. This has been great, but I'm going to divert just for a second.

So everybody understands you've got three snakes or four? I can't remember what you said. Four snakes.

And they're named after Princess Buttercup, Dread Pirate Roberts.

No, Wesley. Wesley. Wesley. Well, Dread Pirate Roberts. Wesley. I was right, by the way. Don't correct me.

I will correct you. But you had that. You had, was it

Fezzik? Yep. Fezzik. And I can't remember the last one. I'm sorry. Valerie. Valerie. Okay.

So if anybody doesn't know, those are, you know, characters from the Princess Bride.

And so we have something in common. My family loves the Princess Bride. Absolutely loves the

Princess Bride. Probably top 10, probably in my top 10 of all time movies. That In Harm's Way, for me,

Princess Bride, Top Gun, you know, all the manly ones, Princess Bride. You want to know what one of my favorite movies of all time is?

Go ahead. The Exorcist. Actually, I saw that about 40 times when

I was a kid. It scared me to death and I loved it. It's hysterical. Now, my mom made me go to the movie theater and watch the very first airing of Jaws.

Oh, sure. Yeah. Because that was evil. That was so, I was little and it was so, that was awful.

Anyway. Okay. We jumped subject, but I had to take a break. So, so anyway. Honestly, talking to you is, is, is, is very like, and we chatted about this before.

It's like, I think one of the hallmarks of, of, of a good, you know, conversation is the ability to disagree, but be respectful and to still walk, and to still walk away from it.

You know, and not, not want to kill the other person. Yeah. The NeverEnding Story. That's a good one.

That's a great one. My kids and I would love the NeverEnding Story. I know a lot of your, I know a lot of your, your watchers probably know who

Aaron Raw is. And he has a, he has a massive 90 plus pound great

Pyrenees dog that he named Falcor. That makes sense. That makes sense.

And this thing is, this thing's a giant and the bark on it is just so like, rah, rah, very funny.

Okay. So any of your audience members have questions? Well, I think we're doing really good.

Anybody have any questions? Okay. Going once, going twice. No, no. Okay. So, so I do have one more,

I guess, I don't know if it's a question or whatever. I just wanted to just kind of bounce off of you and, and, and get, get the idea to get maybe kind of percolating and going.

So, you know, we're talking about the, the morality issue.

And as, as, as we've been trying to, to discuss through the issues, the, the ideas of a

Christian worldview and a Christian morality, axioms, presuppositions, and going through about the, the, the definitions of morality and looking at the standards.

Okay. I guess I don't want to end here, but I want to ask you, why would your standard be better than anyone else's standard?

For example, than the Christian standard. And just in case, just so I can clarify it, the

Christian standard is doing the most good here on earth is to love your neighbor as yourself, to try to treat people correctly, to be honest and holy and good, to be salt and light in the world, to,

I mean, if you see someone hurting and in need, you try to help them. You care for them. You love them.

You want the best for them. I mean, Jesus even said to turn the other cheek when somebody smacks you in the face.

And I don't know very few people that do that, you know? And I mean, he literally saying, you know, you, you take the blow, you know, you, you see, you see in the scripture, we're told to esteem one another as more important than ourselves, that we're to outdo one another in love and good works that, you know,

God's standard for us as Christians is that we are supposed to, as, as Jesus says, let your light so shine before men, that they should see your works and glorify

God. Now, don't get me wrong. The vast, vast majority of Christianity has failed that, but that's still the standard.

And if that's the standard, why would that not be the best standard? So I desperately want to answer this question.

I want to ask you just a couple of little tidbits first, because you said something interesting, the vast majority in your opinion.

Okay. What percentage of Christians even come close to that?

I don't know that I could give you a percentage. I'm going to say there are, just there are those like, I mean, so include your close circle, which

I think you would probably say are pretty good. Well, I know

Andrew and Anthony, so it's, you know, right. No, no, but seriously though.

See, that's the standard. Okay. And we try to live up to it. And I want to tell you that none of us live up to it perfectly.

I can pull every single professing Christian in here. And if they tell you they live up to it, they're lying. Okay. We all fail it.

But the, the, the objective standard is not me. And it's certainly not you.

The objective standard is, is what God's word says is what's right. And what we should be struggling towards.

And if that's the standard, then why is that not the best? So it's interesting.

Okay. So now to answer your question, because I don't want it to seem like I avoided it. I think a couple of,

I think of a few interesting things when I think about, think about this. One of the things that I think about is that everybody can quote

John 3 .16. Yep. Right. Fewer people can, can quote

Matthew 10 .34. Okay. Fewer people can count, can quote Luke 14 .26.

And I'd ask all your audience to look those up and then think about what you said when he said, you know, love the

Lord your God with all your heart and mind, soul, and then love your neighbor as yourself. And the, this exemplar that, that Jesus apparently, or supposedly was.

And I go back and forth on the whole Jesus historicity. Like if I read guys like, like Robert Price, I'm not sure he existed.

If I read guys like Bart Ehrman, I'm pretty sure he did. But the existence doesn't say anything about divinity.

That's a story. But that aside.

And then I think of an interesting quote by Christopher Hitchens, who said, you know, the

Christians, they have these beliefs and they're so wonderful. And you think that it would make them happy, but it doesn't.

They can't be happy till you believe it too. And so I think that if that, sorry, that ended the quote.

If some of the things that you, you said, if, if you could, if you could do those things and leave me alone, then

I would have much less of a problem with it. Now, the, the dynamics of this are much different in Canada than the

U S because even though the third line of our constitution, it says we recognize the supremacy of almighty

God, which is ironic because we have an incredibly secular nation by comparison where you actually omit

God in your constitution and yet oddly are, are overwhelmingly Christian. So I've always kind of shook my head at that.

If, if it wasn't like, so if you could do those, those types of things, like for example, and I know

I'm opening a bunch of cans of worms here and I don't mean to, but I'd love to talk about each one of these at depth later on.

For example, if you don't want an abortion as a woman, you totally shouldn't get one.

But one of the things I find ironic is the whole kind of people see, you see people with the don't tread on me, uh, flags and stuff like that, which is weird, but, um, you know, don't tread on me, but you gotta be okay with me treading on you a little bit.

Um, if you don't want abortion, don't have one, but what about those that do? And, you know, but if, if someone has that need, you know, needs to access healthcare for, for whatever reasons she has, then she should have that capacity.

Um, and if, you know, and we can apply that to a bunch of different things.

And again, I don't want to open too many cans of worms. So if there was the capacity for Christians, for believers, because it's not just Christians, Islam and all these other things.

So I mean, I mean, Islam proclaims itself as a, as a religion of peace. I don't see it, but, um, if, if you could do these things and basically leave everyone else alone, like Christopher Hitchens said another quote, he's like, you know, keep, you know, and again,

I don't mean offense by it. It's like, just keep your delusion private, you know, do what you want, but just, you know, don't, don't, uh, don't ask to us, you know, to have us live under your moral code either.

Then I don't necessarily know for sure that it wouldn't be good.

I wouldn't say that it was the, the best good or the most good, because again, if you're applying biblical standards, there are lots of things in, in the

Bible that, that, that again, aren't, aren't even subjectively wrong.

They're, they're, they're wrong. And so I'm not sure that I could say that it's, that would be the most good.

It would, it might be better. It might be better or it might be close to on par. Um, but I have a hard time seeing, and I'm not trying to be,

I'm not trying to be, um, uh, deliberately confrontational about it, but I still,

I still believe firmly that if you apply the standard of wellbeing and those other things that I, I used to stack on top of it to build it up, that it would be at, at least equal to, to anything, to anything that you would say.

The, the standard that you put forth sounds, you know, doesn't sound as bad as some other belief systems that would want to impose their morality and their way of doing things on people.

And I mentioned Islam and I'll say it. Most people say, Oh, don't talk about Islam. Yeah. I don't have a problem with saying that, that, that that's, that they're either.

Uh, but here's the point. Here's, here's the reason I'm asking the question. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Sorry if I didn't answer your question enough.

Well, you didn't, but anyway, it's, it's okay. Um, here's the reason I'm asking the question.

The standard, the absolute perfect standard is the standard none of us lives up to. Okay. I don't love you perfectly and you don't love me perfectly.

Okay. Um, we don't always seek the best good for each other. And when you talk about the, you know,

Jesus saying that the, the, the perfect, uh, the standard of law is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

He was saying that this is the absolute perfect standard. The problem is, is no one does it. That makes all of us guilty.

Okay. But it still doesn't lessen the standard. You know, I mean, if the standard is, is do not cross the street at a red light, then you don't cross the street and you don't make excuses for it.

You don't cross the street. And if somebody sees you do it, you're breaking, well, you're breaking law. Anyway, if you, if somebody sees you, you, you get punished for it now in, in the, the

Christian, the biblical standard says that as believers,

God is the perfect one. He is the perfect Holy one. He sent his son into this world who was the perfect, not only the perfect standard himself, but he was the only one that ever lived up to his own standard because none of us can.

And that's what the, that's what the Bible tells us talking about federal headship. Adam failed, he fell and we have all sinned.

All of us, you know, the family line, we have all sinned. It's not just that Adam sinned and then we all get the, the leftovers of his sin.

It's that as a corrupt man who, and let me say a clean man who was a good man, he corrupted himself, brought sin into the world.

And we all experienced the, the, the effect of sin, but we willingly experience it.

The standard that God sent said was that we're supposed to love each other perfectly.

And we didn't, we don't watch while we see riots and fighting and all this wickedness going on in the world today.

That's why we see BLM. That's why we see a white privilege. He's superpower. He guys, uh, white supremacist, sorry.

I'm not, I'm not those guys. So I don't know, but I would never, I would never put you in that class either.

So that's why we see all these people fighting and hating and killing one another and trying to claw their way up to being,

I'm better than you. I'm better than you. You're gonna, you're gonna honor me. You're gonna, you're gonna do the best for me.

When God says, even when they slap you on the face, even when they hate you, you pray for them.

You love them. You take care of them. You do the best good for them because the greatest good for them is to show them that they are sinners.

Just like everyone else. They need the savior to atone for their, their sin, their wickedness out of love and respect for God and a new heart that he's given me.

I, I, I begged to have you come on and so we could talk.

I'm not kidding you. I, it's been like, we, you know, we've been doing this for now, uh, four or five times.

And for many weeks we've been saying, man, I can't wait to get to talk to each other and everything else. And it's not because, Oh, I want to get a one up on that atheist.

It's because yeah. And that's not why I come to the table either. I know it isn't. I know it isn't. I know it isn't, but you're going to understand that.

I love you. I care about you. And you know, you talk about, I've heard you say you, I've heard you say, Oh, you can't define that.

Blah, blah, blah. Okay. But no, I don't even say that. I mean, but it's funny. It's like one of the best. Um, uh, one of the best kind of, uh, quips to that I ever heard was, uh, a debate between, you know, the now kind of, uh, ostracized and, and rightly so, uh, former president of American atheist,

David Silverman. He was having a debate with Frank Turek and, uh, towards the end of the debate,

Frank said, you know, I love you, man. And David Silverman looked at him and said, you don't even know what my favorite flavor of ice cream is.

You can't love me. And, and so it's interesting, but I, I say that just in, in, in a joking way, cause

I know where the sentiment is coming from. And it's because I understand where the Senate, like, I don't think, and, and I think this will be, be interesting.

Um, and I hope that the people listening to this, take it, take it where it's truly coming from.

I do not believe in any sense that you are being dishonest with me.

Yeah. I just think you're wrong. Okay. That's fine. That's fine.

And I understand that. But, but, but, but, but in no way, like, cause, cause I've spoken to people that I believe are dishonest people who would call themselves

Christians. And I believe they are dishonest. I do not believe you or Anthony or Andrew are dishonest in any way, shape or form.

Cause I wouldn't waste my time. Well, I really appreciate that. Michael, here's, here's the reason

I asked the question. Okay. And the reason I ask every question. Okay. Um, if, if the,

I know what your motive is. I know. Okay. But if the best good, and let's talk

Occam's razor here for a moment. Okay. I know it makes the Oh, how dare you? But let's, I don't have a problem with it.

I was just surprised to hear you say it. Okay. But if the best good is your salvation and eternal life and eternal bliss and eternal peace with God, never having to experience pain, suffering, or sorrow ever again to that you can have for the rest of all of eternity, all the goodness and kindness of God and all the blessings of God, how evil would

I have to be? And I'm not trying to borrow from, uh, what's his name? Penn, Penn, Gillette.

But how evil would I have to be not to tell you about it? I'd be sure. And so for me, here's the thing.

Here's what you don't know. For me, I spent most of my life as a nominal

Christian. I mean, I heard, I knew all that stuff. I mean, went to church and everything else. Um, I, you know, made professions the whole deal.

Okay. When I was a kid, I think I was seven years old. My first profession of faith, I'll never forget it.

I went up front. My, my oldest cousin, my older cousin, Kevin, he says, uh, no, my oldest cousin, cousin

Tony. He says to me one Sunday morning, Hey, watch this. We were sitting in the front left row. My, my grandfather is a traveling pastor.

Uh, he's dead now, but a long time ago. So it's, uh, um, he's traveling pastor.

And so we, we had the obligation of sitting up front as the family, you know, it's the, what do you call the, the

CK, the church kids, uh, the, or the PK, the pastor's kids. So, so we're sitting up and, um, my, my cousin, he's sitting there.

He looks at me, he goes, watch this. And he goes up front, just as cocky as can be.

Uh, he was, I was seven. He was 11, 10 or 11.

Uh, I think he was around 11. So he goes up front and, um, grabs the pastor's hand and says,

I want to get saved. He turns around, looks at me and laughs. And, uh, the pastor is talking to everybody and he goes, okay, so you want to, you want to get, get right with God.

Yep. Okay. Um, so you know, you're a sinner, don't you? And you want to ask Jesus into your heart? He goes, yep. He goes, um, okay, say this prayer with me.

And then prayed, whatever. Sure. Wednesday baptized. Well, Sunday night, that Sunday night,

I'm sitting there. My cousin's right beside me. My mom's on the other side, same

Sunday night. My mom says at the altar call time for you to, I think it's time for you to get, get saved, honey.

So I go up front, you know, you're a sinner, don't you? You want to get saved? Don't you ask, you know, ask Jesus in your heart, say this prayer.

Got baptized. Both of us together that Wednesday night. You know what change happened in my life? I got wet.

Okay. I made a profession of faith. I said that I was a nominal

Christian or that I was a Christian. I said that I had Jesus as my savior. Okay.

Sure. It wasn't until going out into the world, 17 years old, learning to party, drink, do all the sinful stuff that any human being can do, going out and living like the world and acting the way any brawler or any fighter or anything else.

I met my wife became moral. When a group of, uh, uh,

Christians came to our house, invite us to church. I could sit and read through the scripture with them because all my life, we've been through the

Bible. I can go through the scripture with them, talk to them all night long. We spent four, three, four hours with this guys.

And I sat and talked with them and I knew nothing about God, but I knew about the Bible, claimed to be a

Christian, went to church with them and spent years at that same church.

I walked into the church, man shakes my hand and says to me, Hey, come on down here. This, this, um, uh,

Bible study group, you'll love it. Nobody ever asked me the gospel. Nobody ever asked me if I knew I was a sinner.

Nobody ever asked me if I knew I needed to be saved or what salvation was. The gospel did not have any play in anything until Bailey Smith, who was a traveling evangelist came to that church about a year later.

And within a year's time, I had developed such a hatred for everybody there that my wife and I, we would argue and fight every time we went to church because I hated it.

I hated being around the hypocrites and the liars and the people getting saved 46 times, you know, in one year.

And you've seen them, the people that come in and out and they make professions of faith and they get lost and they get saved and, and all the silliness.

I hated it. I couldn't stand being around all the hypocrites and the liars and the adulterers.

I mean, I, there were men in there that had been cheating on their wives with other women in the, in the church, women doing the same thing.

And everybody was just fine. I hated it. And I hated everybody there. And we're sitting there and I was listening to Bailey Smith ramble on as a traveling evangelist.

And I wanted nothing to do with any of it. I could have been you. I mean,

I was ready to be done with it all. And I'm sitting there and I'll never forget it.

The only friend I had in the entire church, he turns around and looks at me as, you know, as he's talking about the wheat and the tares and talking about people that are in sin, living in the church in the midst of their vileness, being lost.

He turns around and looks at me and he says, I'm lost and I'm going to hell. And I looked right at him and looked straight at him in the eyes and he's bawling and crying.

And I said to myself, I knew that hypocrite was a liar.

I hated him. I hated him. I looked at him. I couldn't believe how bad and vile this friend of mine was to have been living a lie here in the church.

And then all of a sudden I got crushed and convicted by the power of the Holy Spirit of my own sin.

Now, can I prove that to you? No, but I can tell you what happened to me. I wasn't looking.

I was angry. I was a vitriolic. I couldn't believe all the wicked people around me.

I looked at all the hypocrites and liars in the church and I was reminded of all of my wickedness.

And one second, the Holy Spirit showed me that if I died that moment,

I deserved hell better than anybody else in the whole place. I deserved it.

Okay. Because of you don't know how wicked I was. There ain't nobody in this whole entire group can write down a list of wicked that I don't beat.

You know, I've talked to you in private about the vileness of my life, but it's,

I mean, guys, I was a police officer and I did the worst of the worst I could do. I wasn't a bad cop.

I just had to do a lot of fighting. Okay. And I did a lot of cussing and I did a lot of wickedness in the world.

Okay. I did bad as a, as a, as a badge of how bad

I could be and how tough I could be and how rough I could be. And God broke me. Okay.

It wasn't me. I knew my sin. I knew that I needed a savior. And the reason that I do all this is because I deserved hell.

And I, and, and the reason I do this and I know I'm not the best at it. I'm sure there's way better than apologists and everything else.

But if I get one second to tell you a man that I've never met face -to -face and we probably never meet face -to -face about this gospel message,

I have a hope that one day I'll see you in heaven. That's my prayer.

That's my hope, because I really do like you a lot. I hope that when this conversation's over, you and I can be considered friends and that we get to know each other as friends.

And that my biggest hope is that one day you'll, you'll know Christ as your savior and said all that emotional stuff to point this one issue out.

Sure. If the greatest good that I can do, or that you can do, or that any of us can do is to elevate people to purity, let's say holiness.

Sure. To where everyone cares about the greatest good for one another, then why aren't you an apologist for God?

Because the greatest good that everyone ever, anywhere could ever experience would be absolute perfection, holiness, goodness, love for one another, joy, peace, harmony, all those things.

You see what I'm saying? I mean, eternal life is the greatest good that, that any human being could ever have.

And then having eternal peace with one another, being reconciled to each other and with God, I can't think of a better solution, you know, and that's my hope for you.

And I hope that you think about that. And I really do. I mean, well, no, and it's, and it's interesting because, and, and let's say is, um, that's, and I'm going to be a jerk now and say that it's, that's actually not really

Occam's razor. It's more like Pascal's wager. Um, but it's, it's fine.

Be that way. I see how you're going to be, you know what it is. No, I'm going to interrupt everybody. I want to,

I want to point this out now. No more. Mr. Nice guy here. It's because he is Scottish.

Okay. You see that he's, he's Scotch Irish, just like me. Well, don't cuss.

Okay. Stop cussing. Okay. He just like me, he's got this red going on here and everything else that we got the same genetic blood in there somewhere.

And that's where the feisty is coming out. He's got it. That's right. That's right.

I'd stand up, but then you'd see my kilt. Um, but no, I have to restarted that too, but we'll say, we'll save that for another time.

Um, so no, and, and it's interesting because, and this is where everybody in the audience is just going to fall asleep, but I said it before and I'll say it again.

It's because I understand where you're coming from. And because I, I believe totally that you are being honest with me.

I can look at it and say, thank you. I appreciate your sentiment because I know what it means to you.

And I know that you, or at least I think I know that you wouldn't waste your time either.

Just like I said, I wouldn't waste my time or maybe you would, maybe you don't see, maybe you don't see anyone as a waste of time.

I'm not sure. Um, but, but I, I, I get it. Right. Um, and, but just to kind of,

I guess, wrap up. Yeah, it's about 10 after 10 minutes. I'm sure the audience is asleep by now, but we've got 25 on right now consistently.

So that's awesome. That's great. Hi, everybody. Uh, don't forget to send me an email to ca rogers .com.

Please come on and tell your story. I'd love to talk to you. Just bleep out all the bad words and tell him to stop cussing.

That's right. That's right. No, I, anyone who comes on, I'll, I'll even, I'll even bleep out the dulcet tones of my loving wife.

Um, no, you've got the one where she takes out the bad words. Oh no.

I have to, I do that each time. Oh, okay. I do that each time. And I, I do it,

I do it more that way. Um, purposely to try to not forget, even though I forgot last week, last week was an interesting conversation.

I had a conversation with a guy named William from India. I'd, I'd love for you to listen to that episode and tell me what you think of this guy.

Wow. That was interesting. Um, okay. Anyway. Um, I want,

I want everybody listening to this to understand that Justin and I, we just disagree.

Um, I, I don't, I think he's, I think he's a good guy. I, uh, I would, if I was to repeat all the things that he said,

I would mirror much of what he said and saying that my hope would be that we can continue these conversations, have more of them.

Maybe sometime, you know, have like a zoom call where we're not online and we're just kind of talking and getting to know each other.

I think that'd be amazing. Um, you know, uh, he genuinely seems like a, like a, a genuine, honest and decent person.

I'm wonderful. Just ask me, just ask. Yeah, I'll tell you. Uh, humble too.

Yeah. So, um, you know, but we, we, like I said, we, we just, we just disagree, uh, you know, on, on this point.

And like I said before, I am not, I remember having a conversation with, with, uh, with somebody once saying that I don't need,

I don't need God to be not real, but based on everything

I've read and everything I've seen, that just seems to be the way that it is. Justin, a few minutes ago, talked about his personal experience and I would never try to minimize that in any way, shape or form.

I don't doubt that he had that you, Justin, that you had a profound experience.

Um, I just don't agree with you on what it was.

Okay. And, and, and that's, and that's okay. We don't have to agree. Like I said before,

I don't have any delusions that either one of us was going to hop the fence right to, to the other person's side, much to your chagrin.

Um, but, but Hey, you know, I, I have, uh, one t -shirt that I want to find.

I have lots of different t -shirts. One of the t -shirts I want to find, I want to have, you know, like we, you know, we'll convert for evidence and, and that's what, uh, that's what

I'm, I'm missing. That's a, that's a massive can of worms that I just opened. I realized, and I apologize as a, we could go down that rabbit hole for hours.

Um, but I have to get up in the morning. I'm sure you probably do as well, but yeah,

I've got a long trip tomorrow, you know, um, and you know, one thing I want to, I want to agree with you on, on one thing here.

Oh, a point of agreement. No, we have a point of agreement. Um, I, you don't believe, and the problem that I see is that you don't believe the same way that Jesus said the

Pharisees wouldn't believe. He actually said that even if someone came down to this earth and were to die, you still wouldn't believe.

And the whole point was, and it's not a slap against you. The point was, is that for the

Pharisees, part of God's plan and allowing the

Lord Jesus to die was that he would allow them to be the ones that would kill him. So that later on in Acts chapter two, they would be the ones that would see their wickedness and come to Christ.

They would see their sinfulness because the only way for them to be made right with God was that God himself would take on flesh and die for them.

Okay. And so my hope that I hold out for you is that this little bit of seed that, that we've planted, hopefully,

I mean, look, I understand that you've, you've been through all this, you know, wording and teaching and, and, and everything from your youth up.

So have I, but I didn't start saying, look at me,

I'm a, I'm a Christian. I started out not caring and Christ found me.

I think he can find you. He, and my point is, is my point is, is he must know where I am.

Oh yeah. Cause he's sending a lot of people your way now. So, I mean, he, and he definitely is.

He's, that's the thing I hold out hope for, for you. You know, uh, we have a, even though I'm giving you my experience first, uh, second

Peter one 19 says, and so this is Peter. He was on the

Mount transfiguration. He says, even with all that we have a more, we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in dark places until the day dawn day dawns in this morning star arises in your hearts.

And the whole point is in that is even though he could tell you about his subjective experience, he had objective truth and hidden in the word of God.

And it's found in the word of God. So, I mean, Michael, it's a two 15.

You have to work in the morning. I have to take a very long trip tomorrow. Um, we are at two 15, uh, 44.

I can't believe we've been keep going. I think we can go for another half hour. Um, but yeah, easily, but I've enjoyed our conversation and I have,

I have immensely. And I, and like I said to Andrew, I think the next one, uh, you know, you, you gotta come on, uh, you gotta come on the

CA. Absolutely. I would love to, and this, this will sound, this will sound rude.

I don't mean it rude, but I'd love to expose you to my audience, like, and to let you, you know, let you talk to them.

Absolutely. And, and by the way, by the way, one thing I will tell you is, um, I love, there are a lot of snowflake

Christians in the world. Um, I don't prefer to hear people cussing me out, but I've heard it a lot.

So, you know, if, if people want to be, want to be gracious, I would appreciate it because,

Oh yeah, no, no. Okay. So just to clarify, uh, we, we record, uh, we record like, uh, and do a, do a release afterwards.

Um, I don't do the, I like, I mean, the Canadian atheist has a

YouTube channel. There's no content on it. I tell people I have a face for podcasting. Um, and yeah, so I mean, it's just, it's just recorded and then, and then it goes out to the world.

There are comments that come in. Um, I, I'm pretty strict with the, with the commenters, especially when it's commenting on a, you know, on a show where a

Christian was on. I have no problem just deleting them and I'll send them a little note and I'll tear them a new one.

Uh, yeah. So I have no problem in making sure, sure of that. The only thing that you'll be exposed to is, is my, my partner in crime

Dean who, uh, you know, who, who sometimes is, uh, is less generous when it comes to entertaining, um, things.

Maybe I should let him speak for himself. Um, but yeah, I've heard it. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, like, like I said, and to everybody, to everybody listening,

I hope that this has, uh, hope this has been entertaining for you. I've seen a couple of things that pop up and stuff like that.

And I always go back later, like tomorrow I'll look at the YouTube comments and sometimes I pop a one or two in there myself.

Um, and I, you know, I, I, I welcome it. I don't take any of the stuff, uh, personally. I've got all over it last week though, man, you was all over it.

I was, I was all, I was all over it a little bit. And that was, and that was simply because I had the time.

My wife was watching some trashy show on television, some reality TV crap. And you really loved her.

You would be sitting right beside her and just watching and just baited breath. It's because I really loved her.

It's because I really do love her because she wants to enjoy it. And if I sat down there beside her,

I would be, I'd be tearing it up. I'd be like, come on, give me a break. My wife will tell you,

I don't watch TV. Okay. I watch, I watch exceedingly little television. I can't stand it.

There's a, there's a few shows that I, that I like. Um, most of them are, um, most of it's porn, but no,

I'm just kidding. Uh, no, it's, um, Oh yeah, I meant to get on that with you. I went to get, meant to get on that, that bandwagon.

There's not much, there's not much TV that I like. Um, but, uh, no, but anybody who watches, I hope it was a,

I hope it was a fun. And, uh, again, please send, send emails.

And there was a person who kind of popped in and out a couple of times and left. Uh, that's too bad. I would have liked to have interacted with them a little bit.

It's too bad that no questions came up, but, uh, hopefully we had a bunch of questions.

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we can do this again. Absolutely. Okay. Um, Hey guys, we've got to get off here.

It's been, uh, we're at two, two 20 now. Um, I hope that everybody has been blessed and had a wonderful evening.

Uh, Michael, really, I do want to thank you so much. And, uh, Oh, you know, that's, that's my for a second.

Oh, I just want to say, I, I, I really have had a wonderful time and I really hope, uh, my prayer is that you'll repent and believe the gospel and that we will see you, see you in heaven soon.

Okay, brother. All right. God bless and everybody have a wonderful night. Take care, everybody.