March 20, 2018 Show with Douglas Wilson & Joel McDurmon on “How Does the Old Covenant Civil Penal Code Apply to Homosexuality Today?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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I'm so thrilled about today's event. It's going to be an unusual event for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are having a debate today and one of the reasons that's very good news for you, the listener, is that you will hardly hear me say anything today.

It's going to be predominantly our two guests who will be debating each other that you'll be listening to and I'm not going to go into any lengthy introductions of them. I'm assuming most of you know who they are but you could also find out later on when we announce the contact information how you can learn more about our two debating opponents.

But we have debating today on the program Douglas Wilson who is an author and he's also the pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, and his opponent today will be Joel McDermott. He's an author and he's the president of American Vision.

The thesis of the debate is how does the old covenant civil penal code apply to homosexuality today and the debate is going to begin with a 25-minute opening.

Douglas Wilson’s Opening Statement on the Old Covenant Civil Penal Code

Statement from Douglas Wilson and Doug you have the floor. Great. First let me thank you for having me on and let me thank Joel for the chat online up to this point and also for um let me just set the the stage for this.

Last September I posted a piece on my blog called The Death Penalty and the death penalty is dying on the cross as the fulfillment of all the executions that we sort of my interaction the bible deals with.

I got into a well among as a result of that I got into a brief some of the issues involved and um and then as as it happens we are continuing that today um we didn't really get into the weeds in that in that back and forth so hopefully we will get into the weeds today and be able to get some things resolved.

When we talk about returning our culture to a biblical footing which I would argue we self-evidently need to do we need to return to God's law we need to return to the foundation of biblical law. One of the most obvious questions for unbelievers or outsiders or people who are not persuaded to ask is what about all those draconian death penalties in the are we going to be dragging people out to the city square and stoning them to death for you know this and that because of the obvious presence of those penalties any Christians who are theonomic or who lean theonomic are often relegated to the role of ayatollah weird beards who want to chop off hands in the name of Jesus.

The theonomic or theocratic wing of conservative Christianity to be something very much like radical Islam so radical Islam and radical Christianity are thought to be just words um and it's a I think it's a very reasonable in his book and in terms of the care now going to be getting into some areas of disagreement it's been a year or two now since the book came out.

When the when the book came out uh I selected it as one of my books of the month so I I promote a book that I think is well worth reading and this was one of them is in the book where is driving the is driving you be getting into is is one of them.

Well Joel at the Old Testament death penalty he uh quoting Joel again when in the context of a punishment for a crime against God's holiness it meant to be put under the curse of immediate and there were there were in the laws of Israel and there was also the cities that was and because Achan then he and his household he reiterates this in the laws of warfare uh Deuteronomy 20 and then he says again the complete destruction nothing and no one was to be spared.

So in a in a city that was to get down to glass and goes to be devoted to be burned specifically as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. And then Joel now I want to I'm I'm citing this because in agreement I believe interpretation that such a cannot be simply and applied without transformation to our time.

You can't just take a grappling hook reach into the Mosaic code lift you know lift whatever laws there are. The idea that theonomy means that we have to ignore the special in God's redemptive economy uh not to mention the impact of the Christ arriving uh our sins to be buried to be raised and to ascend into heaven thus remaking heaven and earth.

Um if theonomy if theonomy means that we need to ignore all that then it really is. That's not what theonomy. Joel and I agree thus far he's unaddressed and I think they're key they're key questions. The transfer from the old economy to the new was one of abrogation not abrogation and incremental replacement.

So it's not just the erasure of the Mosaic code and then the array replacing it. With few centuries yet Christians came into possession they were going to have to decide what did not change at all. This came at a time when believers would have no political.

He abrogated through fulfillment the Mosaic code and he began the process of abrogating. The pagan is the major 120 AD as representing God's de facto intention for the laws. A thousand years later the leaven works through the loaf and a significant part of that loaf is the legal system.

This applies to laws about slavery laws about abortion and infanticide laws about fashion. Why. There were no laws against slavery abortion and sodomy in 120 AD and it boils down to this. Was it because Christ had now come.

Or was it because the spirit of Christ had not yet gotten that far in abrogating and erasing and overthrowing the pagan legal system. Slavery didn't just disappear and neither did. It's not against the law because Christ has come.

It might be not against the law because the pagans are still in control of the legal system the Christ as the reason for the shift in how we treat treat these sins. Do we treat them as crimes or not. And I think it may have been much more of a de facto the pagans are running the show so that my second concern is this one tail end of his discussion of these issues.

Governments no longer have authority to apply carom punishments in the new covenant. No uh no care and penalties. While all of these sodomy and bestiality remain abominable they can no longer be said to be.

Let me just interject argued about the uh the carom penalties being why would they be crimes. And if they're crimes at all on what basis. By once by what standard. You'll agree that families can by means of distance.

But you can have penalties. See why would not be warranted to punish flagrant cases with loss of citizenship or banishment. He's suggesting doing something about it in flagrant cases. And he's suggesting loss of citizens.

It should be a problem that reconstructionists and theonomies theonomists are familiar with. By what standard if we're going to apply civil penalties at our information about what stand what penalties ought to be applied when joel argues that i think he needs to show how that interpretation does not remove why.

And it's the case if if christ is the one administering the judgments from his head and we've transferred taking away and not from the heavenly throne of christianity is now look no longer has jurisdiction over first table offenses.

And i don't want to assert beyond what joel has said. I don't know if he means their civil government no long no longer has do they have nothing. Whatever to say government has no jurisdiction. How can the magistrate and kings bring their honor and glory into the new jerusalem if they're not.

If they're not allowed to have any opinion on first no longer has or does it mean there's no jurisdiction. Whatever. Uh joel appears to me to be saying that blasphemy for example should only be a civil issue if it is conducted in such an outrageous manner that it slops over into serving the peace.

That's only only an extreme or aggra. Only an extreme or ag aggravated cases. Only an extreme or aggra excuse me only in extreme or aggravated cases in which blasphemy or false worship aims to lead revolution to revolution sedition terrorism or treason treason.

Would civil government intervention be can react to blasphemy. When it gets to the opinion is blasphemy not even a misdemeanor. Now i agree with joel karamban does not apply. I want the karamban penalties to be applied in a new covenant fashion.

Uh in other words we can learn from the severity of the karamban penalties that even though we are no longer keeping or keeping the holy seed free from defilement sodomy is a spin a civil order needs to take with the utmost seriousness it's no it's no misdemeanor.

We have to recognize and remember that when god judged sodom and the other cities of the plain there was no care and principle among men misbehaving in a in a major way there was no holy seed there there was no messianic promise there.

Um and yet god judged them from the heavens. So in and in jude's juice that even as sodom and gomorrah and the cities about them in a like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange during the vengeance of eternal fire cities around about them paid attention to god's law written in their own bodies written in the sky whatever prophet may have come by and to tell them to knock it off they had a responsibility not to.

And uh and to the end of the world we have a responsibility to look at what happened to them. And i'm not sure that the example that the lesson that we should draw is oh look god destroyed sodom and gomorrah with fire.

So let's make sure that we don't have any uh penalties. For first i agree stoning and you know that sort of thing are in our and we learned something about the heinousness of deal these municipalities sodom and gomorrah is set out according to the lord's brother jude as an example and i would suggest that it's an example that should stand until the end of the world.

Uh we ought to look at that and we ought to say jeepers um we need we need to make sure that we're not indulging this kind uh this kind of sin. We we need to make sure that uh we not not give it a foothold now.

Well i should say one other uh one other thing and that is going back to my initial comments about uh talking this way it makes everybody think you know how dare you how dare you not treat sodomy as a sacrament.

How dare you not treat abortion as a sacrament. How dare you uh bring how dare you bring in your your morality trying to impose it on. Well i'm not i'm not trying to get us back to some um medieval you know in the first part of my adult ministry and is uh when i was a young minister uh sodomy was a felony in virtually all 50 states.

It's hard for us to recognize quickly and how complete standard again and it's moved from. You can't ban that to you must what i think and that is presenting us with the inescapable concept. It's not whether but which.

It's not. It's not whether you're going to have blast which blasphemy codes you're going to have. It's not what. Get back to the position where we see the carom principle filled in christ. And so we we are not obligated someone guilty of homicide.

We don't have to apply the law straight. We should look at examine the law carefully. And as the westminster laws that were applied to israel as far as that nation and that state was concerned do not apply today except as the general equity thereof may require even given in christ which i grant and accept.

Is there a general equity that we still have to be cognizant of. We still and you have two more minutes i have two more minutes. So in summary overview i would say um i agree with applying and saying that that has something to do with how we interpret and apply these laws.

But my two major questions my two major concerns key questions that he has left unaddressed. The first one is that um are is he attributing to the coming of co reality that pagans ran the show when the christian church was established.

And didn't you know it was uh some centuries before christian stability of deciding what kind of laws they were once that moment arrived once uh once constantine did his thing and christian jurists were trying to figure out how the old testament law applied how the new testament law applied.

What do we do with this responsibility that we now have. Uh i believe that it's not as you can't just say well that was before christ fulfilled. Okay granted. But we figure out what we're going to do with people who are guilty of this during a time when pagan law was paramount.

And then the the second question given his understanding of carom uh fulfillment. Why why. Any penalties at all. Why does the local government why. Local you know i would say local localism and libertarianism.

Which i would be in agreement with. But he says local civil civil governments could be warranted to punish flagrant cases. Why flagrant cases. And we're out of time clear cases. All. Right. Well thank you.

Very much uh douglas wilson. And now thank you. Now joel mcdermott will have 25 minutes for his opening.

Joel McDermott’s Opening Statement on Abrogation, General Equity, and Civil Penalties

Remarks. Thank you chris. And again thank you doug guys i really appreciate having this venue. I'd also say that from now on. Happy to do it principal. And uh maybe i'll talk about that matter being our only hope but you know some people relations as he lies with a woman they shall both.

And then he said oh why do you push say this law applies to us today but you don't push. Also for full disclosure many of your listeners who know me in my ministry know that i used to hold that view. Hold them out there if you're nice about it.

If you say this is they just didn't. Okay. Now we're going to keep in dying. This person breaking the sabbath still applies to me. Like we're trying to leverage what the did not see. And well does that mean we don't.

And that was real chief one being christ fulfilled. Therefore also let charity down the line. And i'm saying uh my of rape are like cases of murder. We continue this law and in first any time we appeal between law and history law tells us what ought to be or does not mean.

He did everything that he could very well have. Where take the argument from silence and say that he did not in in that narrative people still in the high places he read that by itself. You might think that even josiah if you read verse five they had built through the temple where we're not told either way.

And so we can does not. Just the other ways to apply these laws is what does well shall be put away. I'd like to be very clear about this. It does not say that put to death the act of salt and even the patriarch of the theonomic move acknowledged and made that it did not say the same thing about this is not specified in my book.

I would. There is not necessarily. And that is often. But when christ comes it's a matter of seeing how the law he is not talking as many people have supposed of the jewish people. It's the offspring of abraham.

And it's one seat. It's christ. The law was given many times. I talk about what's in my book for free. So you can read them in html so you can go to them. If they don't apply any and that's just law. That's where i see the application of them.

And that's where i see a transformation. Feed comes. See the law is dead on their hearts. Write my law on their. Some of the law continues in the new. Which laws apply and which ones don't continue to apply to two missionship not females.

Okay. And you have one. You have one minute. If you however if you move on to the law of bestiality for example i i don't see a biblical theological art. And that makes the they want to have a big powerful state.

And i know doug said at one point you know we don't want to make this a medieval. It concerns me that if you don't have a biblical theological reason for dividing what continue by the liberals today. And we are i want to find that biblical balance and support it and.

We are out of time and before we go to the break i just have a question. Um it seems to me and i knew this before the debate but it seems to me that uh and i'm sure that a lot of our listeners may be surprised by what they're hearing because it seems to me that we have a non-theonomist debating a theonomist but the answers given and the defenses given for either side seem to be reversed.

Am i right on this. Joel. These are crazy times. In other words doug wilson you you have publicly said even on my program that you are not a theonomist even though you have a lot of respect and empathy for a lot of what is taught amongst theonomists.

And i know that joel uh you have openly declared to be a theonomist and even defended theonomy in a debate. Uh and american vision has its entire history from what i know as a theonomic and christian reconstructionist organization and it seems that the the defenses being given on the question on how the old covenant civil penal codes apply to homosexuality today they seem to be reversed.

Am i am i correct on that. Joel. Say.

According to the popular uh perception that's absolutely true uh but i would say only one who yes and i think we're approaching a greater system of well we're going to our midway break.

Right now it's a longer break than normal because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires a 12 minute break between our two larger segments so please be patient with us. We are not taking listener questions today so i thank all of you who already submitted questions.

But we are not taking questions today from our listeners and when we return uh the order will be reversed. Joel mcdermott will question doug wilson for 15 minutes and then doug wilson will question or cross-examine joel mcdermott for 15 minutes.

So don't go away we'll be right back. Right after these messages with the debate over how the old covenant civil penal code is applied to homosexuality. Today i am chris arns and host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective.

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And before i return to the debate between douglas wilson and joel mcdermott on how does the old covenant civil penal code apply to homosexuality today i just have a couple of brief announcements. First of all the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their philadelphia conference on reform theology coming up this april it is only named the philadelphia conference on reform theology in tribute to dr james montgomery boys who started this series of conferences well over two decades ago at the 10th presbyterian church in philadelphia pennsylvania.

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Joel McDermott Cross-Examines Douglas Wilson on Karam Penalties and General Equity

Well we are now back to the the debate uh which has already proven to be a very fascinating debate in my opinion we are having a debate on how does the old covenant civil penal code apply to homosexuality today and our debating opponents are douglas wilson author and pastor of christ church moscow idaho and joel mcdermott author and president of american vision.

And now it is time for joel mcdermott to cross-examine or question douglas wilson for 15 minutes before we have the reverse.

And joel mcdermott you now have the floor. Okay uh to be a traditional cross-examination where.

I'm asking him questions. Yes and he is not to ask questions at all other than to clarify.

You know if he if he's confused by a question or something. Okay. Well okay the end that's for the end. Okay all right. Then we'll stick with that. Uh douglas you said you had you agreed with my case it was laid out but there as an abrogation and not as an abrogation and replaced.

Are you familiar with the places in my book where i yeah i read the whole book. So so that's what's interest. Talked about those. I'm not sure i get the question of my statement there. That uh is what you seem to me to be doing had to do with stone them with stones.

We don't have to burn san francisco you know we we don't have to do that. That's not. But we can take the general we can look at that carom law and and determine the general equity. What's what is being disapproved of here.

And should we penalize it at all. Should we make that behavior illegal. And if so what penalties do we apply. That's the replacement part. And i didn't think that your your treatment of the carom principle gave us any guidance on what to do with homosexual being general equity in a law like in which our experiment and spurgeon once talked about certain ministers who handle the text the way a donkey chooses.

I'm not trying to be coy or cute about these things. I really believe these issues need to be and judicial intention. But i know that the things i say if i if i say for example yeah i think the death penalty still applies which i do all right.

If i if i say that then there are certain internet outlaws. I want to be very careful. I'm not trying to avoid this. I'm not trying to avoid unnamed and they have a fair nobody denies that they were engaged in that at the end of the day and execute.

If someone comes up to me and asks me about that and said what do you think about. I would say number one. That's not what they're doing is not my agenda. I'm not trying to argue that that's the first point blank straight up.

Do you think an injustice to the men who are ex no no injustice was being done to chapter one where people who live like this are dying because of. There's not the same thing as i'm trying to parse the issue carefully but no injustice is done if if someone dies for uh yeah actually and there's no injustice done i want to say was not an injustice.

It may not have been what the government ought to have been doing. They ought ought to have been. Uh you know i'm not saying that that ought the way the world is but in that if you isolated that one thing i i can't find a text that would say that that was ungodly.

Then if which biblical laws to apply and which ones not to it my understanding of i think you summarized it. Well when i'm i'm a westminster in the class with a great deal of respect. Um when i look at when i look at this it's not just in in the mosaic law it was a case law system.

And that case law system was hard to content and with regard by king alfred. And that was the foundation. And that's a question system. One is the dupree element of press. You know you need to put a pair in the general equity.