Why Theology? :: Is Secular Music A Sin?

What is up, guys? My name is KJ, short for Khalil Jones, and this is Y Theology. Today we've got a very special episode, but before that,

I have with me Pastor Jeremiah. Can you please introduce yourself, man? Yeah. KJ, thanks for having me back on.

That's a good sign. You had me back on, so I appreciate that. Like you said, my name is

Jeremiah Nortier. I serve as a pastor here in Jonesboro, Arkansas, at a church called Twelve Five Church.

And it's a blessing to be a part of a church plant and just to kind of help build things from the ground up. So thanks for having me back on,

KJ. No problem, man. My pastor said when he heard our first episode, he said we gelled together.

So I was like, let me get back over here again, not just play. But I definitely played last time, so it's definitely been fun. I'm pretty sure you're like me.

Me and you both have snowed in. We're both in Arkansas. Last couple of days,

I think yesterday, there was like already like six inches of snow on the ground. And like right now, it's snowing right now.

Yes, we're buried here in Jonesboro. It's dangerous to be outside driving on the road.

So perfect time to do a podcast. Hey, there we go. I got a new mic too, so I don't know.

Now, have you been keeping up with the NBA lately? So my wife and I, we don't actually have cable, so I just catch some highlights on YouTube.

And right now, actually, I'm wearing my my Lakers number 23 shirt. So representing me to just increase the number one to 24.

It will be Kobe. Oh, mad, mad respect for the Black Mamba for sure.

He was always my favorite basketball player. I hate it. He died. I know currently right now. So people give me a hard time.

How's your favorite player, Curry? I'm a Lakers fan since 2009, so I was happy when this, you know, recent year.

I have to confess, I hopped on the bandwagon with LeBron, so I've only recently been for the

Lakers. Man. Honesty. This is good.

You still a fan. That's I guess it's good. That's all that matters. We got something in common outside of our theology.

Basketball used to play basketball in high school as well. Yes. And it's bittersweet because I'm one of those guys that reminisce on the glory days was a part of a state championship win as a point guard.

But I tore my Achilles tendon years ago back in 2017. So I've lost some of my my quick step.

You used to drop your average 60 points a game. That's funny.

No, no, no. I would average around 10, but I was definitely not the star by any means.

I was a part of a good team. That's still good. That's funny. Now, I want to talk to you about this issue at hand.

I know a lot of times we think about, you know, secular music. People don't see the logical issue. But like,

I guess, underneath the surface, there lies to, I guess, greater things. But today we're going to talk about is is secular music a sin.

Now, those two topics before we can even get to secular music, we have to deal with what's known as legalism, but also what is known as Christian liberty.

Which one of those do you want to start with, man? Yes. So they're both super important.

And something to point out is legalism and Christian liberty. Those terms aren't necessarily found in the

Bible. So defining how these terms have developed over time is super important. I guess we can begin with legalism.

Legalism is essentially, you know, adhering to a list of commands like do's and don'ts.

And this is hard for Christians because legalism can be a dividing line issue in terms of our salvation.

If you're trusting in yourself, that's legalism, trusting in your good works to obey or not obey.

And that's to 100 percent miss the gospel. So legalism can be a first tier issue on, you know, missing the gospel of grace.

And as we continue to develop this out, I think what we're going to really be getting at in terms of secular music for the

Christian is in terms of our sanctification. So sanctification is that process of becoming separated from the world and being conformed more and more into the image of Christ.

So what does secular music look like for the Christian in their sanctifying walk with Christ?

What do you think about kind of framing it that way? One more time. So like legalism.

And when we're talking about Christians, you know, is it sin for Christians to listen to secular music?

The answer is it depends. It depends because I tell you, a guiding principle, because you're not going to find a verse that says thou shall not listen to Post Malone.

Right. We're not going to find verses in the Bible that say that. But we do have principles like First Corinthians 1031 says.

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do to the glory of God. And so when we're talking about legalism in terms of our walk with Christ, we have to ask the question, whatever we're doing, whether it's listening to secular music, whether it's whatever we're watching on the

TV, can we give God glory in whatever the activity is? That's essentially the primary verse of the

Protestant Reformation for solely Deo Gloria. Whatever you do, we do all to the glory of God.

And so we're asking questions. Is it sinful to listen to secular music? It depends.

Is the song you're listening to, can you give God glory while listening to it? And so that to me is a good guiding principle to really deter us away if we should listen to something and we should not listen to it.

That's right on the nail, too. I was thinking, too, kind of like when you define, you know, legalism.

You know, a lot of, you know, even today, you know, I know Christians today to kind of struggle with this issue because on one side, we do want to keep the law because we want to please, you know, the

Father. At the same time, like the law we know, Paul tells us in Romans 3, it's kind of going to show us that we can't keep the law of the saints.

We all fail of keeping the law, that's why we're all sinners. And so like the legalistic point of view, it fails to realize that we can't truly keep the law, that's why we need a savior.

And so kind of one aspect of it about legalism. Now, it's oftentimes, too, you know, legalism is not just something unbelievers can do, but it's also something that true believers can even fall into as well.

For sure. No, that's really good because after we're saved by grace, it's not that we keep the law,

God's commandments, in order to stay saved. That's where this legalistic mentality can creep into the

Christian law. Well, yeah, I'm already saved, but I'm going to keep God's favor somehow by doing, obeying a list of commandments.

Well, that's legalism. And the other side of this conversation, we will talk about Christian liberty and how examples in the scripture, the apostle

Paul himself, how did he use his liberty? Did he use his liberty to say, guys, I'm free to do whatever

I want? Or did he watch what he did in light of his Christian brethren, not causing them to stumble on things like that?

So legalism, though, super important to realize that it's your salvation.

Justification is never built on the foundation of you keeping the laws or not.

But like what you said, our hearts desire as Christians is to be obedient to God and God will bless that for sure.

I heard someone say, too, maybe my pastor in my church, I think a couple of Sundays ago, he said something along the lines of this.

Like when we think about salvation, salvation is simply trusting in Jesus and having faith in him alone.

Did you guys know? Glory, I got the songs back to my bed. Faith alone, I bet.

I got sidetracked. Essentially, faith alone in Christ, that's what it says. We're given grace, you know, received by God, but it's by our faith alone that saves us, not by works.

And so even our repentance today, it still doesn't justify us before God. It's only faith alone, because our repentance is even the true repentance.

God's the one that kind of formulates that repentance over a period of time to do sanctification. And so I think it's a passage in Colossians, chapter two, verse twenty to twenty three.

Paul talks about legalism a little bit. He kind of warns us of it. It states this since you die with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why still you still belong to it?

Do you submit to the rules? Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch. These are all destined to perish with use because these are based on human commands and teachings.

Such regulations, indeed, have an appearance of wisdom, where it does self -imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body.

But they lack any value in form of sensual indulgence. And so it's kind of like a little bit to what legalism is, in a sense, by a list of do's and don'ts.

So it's like turning the Christian faith, which is simply faith alone in Christ. Again, I'm not saying that we don't keep

God's law. We do not to go to heaven because we want to please the father. Of course, we know these things.

All of us are bound by the moral law. But it's like turning that into a list of do's and don'ts after we've already received salvation.

Yes, so that's perfect. We got to understand legalism does not earn us a right standing before God.

Jesus did all the works necessary to please the father. And it's upon that finished work on the cross and payment for sin.

That's how we are justified by receiving Christ and his perfection by faith alone.

That is so huge. That is so huge. Because to put your trust in anything other than Jesus is to once again miss the gospel completely.

And so when we're talking about legalism, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, KJ. I know you're interviewing me, but 1

Corinthians 6 .12. This to me is once again another good principle of what it looks like as far as what we ought to do and what we ought not to do.

And this kind of is going to bleed over into Christian liberty. So Paul said in this verse, all things are lawful to me, but not all things are helpful or beneficial.

All things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything.

I love that because we can apply that principle verse to the question, you know, is it is secular music a sin?

What depends on one hand, are we free to are we we're not bound by the law.

We're free to do whatever our hearts desire to give God glory. And so just because we're free to do a lot of things.

We got to ask the question, is it beneficial for us? You know what I mean? Is it beneficial to listen to Cardi B?

Is it beneficial to listen to Post Malone? Well, when you start looking at some of the content that's very much worldly and the antithesis of what it means to give

God glory and it opposes Christ. I begin to look back to that even more fundamental principle.

Can I give God glory and pumping that type of music and lyrics into my heart and soul?

Well, I'm starting to see that that is not in fact helpful at all. In fact, it's doing the opposite. It's hindering my sanctification.

Not that I'm going to lose salvation, but is this something that's going to be beneficial to my spiritual walk?

And so it's hard for me. This is where I think we're dabbling in a gray area.

Like when I have a strong conviction about, you know, guarding my heart from secular music,

I'm very slow to push my conviction on to somebody else because we're all at different points in our sanctification.

So what do you think about some of that, KJ? That definitely everything you just kind of talked about. It kind of points to a topic that we're going to discuss, which is

Mom is Christian. And so the reason why I start off with legalism first, because I'm going to be pointing back to legalism as the kind of dialogue throughout this conversation.

But I want to make sure we kind of properly define that. So, like, as we go to talk about it, people will know. Now, what is

Christian liberty? So, of course, you know, the words legalism and Christian liberty are not found directly in the

Bible. Like Trinity, the word is not found in the Bible. We have biblical concepts of the

Trinity throughout the Bible. Christian liberty is a similar concept. The word is not found, but the concept of it is found.

And so basically Christians, you guys remember Paul, I believe was first Corinthians 15,

I believe. Maybe Romans 15 on the people of God. I think the Gentiles, they were eating meat that was used for like worshiping like idols and stuff.

But they were eating meat. But what they didn't know is like some of the Jews in the church, they were like feeling convictions about these

Gentiles eating this meat. And particularly that was used by idols. And so Paul says is that, you know, don't cause your brother to stumble.

So essentially what Paul was getting at is the particular act of eating meat in itself was not, you know, a sin.

What was a sin was causing our fellow brothers to sin or stumble. And that's kind of a little bit of what

Christian liberty is, in a sense, is that basically there are certain things in the

Bible that God does not say is forbidden. But so we have a little bit of freedom in these areas.

But I know, let me kind of take a couple steps back. A lot of times people who, I guess, go out of hand with Christian liberty, they kind of have like a loose lifestyle of reckless living.

And that's not what I'm promoting by no means. But there are certain things, for example, the area of secular music, you know, is this just truly a sin?

And I believe that our dialogue with Christian liberty will kind of help us with that. What do you think? Absolutely.

We really, so like what you said in Romans chapter 14, and I believe it's 1

Corinthians 8. Paul cares deeply about his brethren that is struggling with legalism.

So you got to think about these Jewish Christian converts. They're struggling by letting go of these dietary restrictions.

You know, Jesus came and fulfilled all that. And we see it in the book of Acts that Peter received a vision and realized that this was a picture that the gospel was supposed to go into the

Gentile unbelieving world. And so now all things are clean. Christians can eat virtually whatever they want to eat as long as it's given in thankfulness to God.

And so, but Paul is saying, look, as Christians, we are not called to abuse our Christian liberty.

You know, one point of application is sometimes it's concerning. I get on Facebook and I see a lot of the reform crowd, you know, smoking cigars and drinking alcohol and posting their favorite brand.

And it's like, look, a lot of our brethren struggle with legalism. And this is going to be a stumbling block.

And when you hear Paul in Romans 14 verse 13, he says, therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

And that verse I read earlier, to me, this is a crucial point to understand when he says all things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful or beneficial.

Paul realized that just because he was free to virtually do anything, you know, apart from the law, doesn't mean that we should, we ought to do that.

And I'm thinking about there's so many people in an authority position where we really need to be careful.

Parents, your kids are watching every step that you make. So what does it look like to watch a

TV show where they're very loose with their words and very blasphemous and have really crude humor?

Well, if you're laughing along with watching that, what does that tell your kids implicitly?

If you're listening to music that is cursing and talking about, you know, very sexual and promiscuous language and you're jamming out to that, what message are you teaching your children?

Now, KJ, if I could tell you just a brief story, something that kind of rubbed me the wrong way as a pastor amongst pastors is

I went to the G3 conference last year and wonderful, love it.

And I was listening to, you know, having conversations with other pastors and one pastor said, man, Post Malone is my jam.

I love it. And, you know, I went and looked up, you know, who that is and some of the songs and it really gave me almost anxiety thinking, oh, my goodness, this is an under shepherd that guards the flock of God and he's pumping that kind of music into his mind and his heart.

Now, once again, for the life of me, I can't do that to the glory of God.

And my only point with that story is people are watching and listening to what you say.

And as pastors, we're called to be above reproach. And so that's something that each person is going to have to give an account before God and really examine their heart to see if they can actually give

God glory and listening to that type of secular music. And I want to draw a line somewhere and say there is some objective statement.

The harder questions with, you know, are all secular songs sinful? Well, perhaps not.

There are maybe some neutral songs that I've heard too. Me and you talked about, you know, I listen to the

John Wall. Everybody do the John Wall. To me, hey, I can give God glory by singing that fun song.

Right. But there is some line we need to be careful when we start to fill our minds with an ideology that is the exact opposite to glorifying

God. So I don't know if you want to comment with some of those things there. Yeah. So a little bit kind of things you just said.

You even mentioned like, you know, smoking cigars, like drinking. So, again, like with Christian living, the

Bible doesn't strictly forbid us from doing those activities. But we knew certain applications, for example, the

Bible says, don't be a drunkard. The Bible said, never mind. We have a lot of application that we can take.

Well, excessive use of those activities will lead to sin. But also, like the reason behind why we do certain things or acts also fall into sin, which is idolatry.

Most of times, like, for example, someone who drinks, for example, I haven't been holy all my life.

So I used to drink, you know, drink such as like Hennessy or like Matrone. Like if I were to do that now as a

Christian, I don't think like even though like I said, the Bible doesn't strictly forbid us from drinking.

If I were to go to the store and buy that, people around knowing that I'm a preacher, they would be like, why is

KJ buying alcohol? What is KJ going to do with it? The image it carries is kind of is negative.

And it's going to cause for myself. I don't think it's I mean, I don't have I don't know.

Maybe somebody has a strong tolerance to alcohol, but drinking certain alcohols, like, for example, like there's a difference between alcohol and like wine.

It's the same thing, but like hard liquor and wine. Like if you're drinking hard liquor, I mean, there's a reason why you're probably doing that.

Versus like if you're sipping on like wine at a marriage, you see that in a wedding, I mean, it's kind of different with that.

But with this issue, is secular music or sin? We probably should define what we mean by secular, huh?

Yep. Yep. Yeah. And my first thought to secular music is those songs that are in principle of the world like we see it existing in the unbelieving society.

Now, since we're all made in God's image, I believe even the secular music can say some good things that like when you hear songs about, you know, sacrificial love for one another, loving each other, giving yourself to someone in that capacity.

Those are good principles. And through a Christian lens, we can hear that and immediately apply it in a

God glorifying life. So that's kind of my first thoughts when I hear the word secular. I'm just thinking of unbelievers, those songs that are worldly in principle, but they're not necessarily sinful because we're trying to get to the heart issue.

So like when I said, you know, John Wall, to me, that's a secular song, but it's not inherently sinful, right?

To me, that's going to be a heart issue. Now, before we even get to like, is secular music a sin, is just doing anything secular at all a sin, do you feel like?

See, that's a great question. I would say no. So like basketball, playing basketball is secular. And sometimes my analogies and illustrations are basketball because that's the world

I grew up in for so long. But no, check this out. Something secular like basketball is kind of neutral in a sense.

Now, when I think about that is I can either play basketball selfishly, I can play basketball and make it an idol and not give

God glory. However, through regeneration, the Holy Spirit at work in my heart and being in Christ, I now can play basketball to the glory of God to be an example of what it means to love others through teamwork and all these things and to build relationships and hopes to share the gospel.

So that's why I'd say these secular activities aren't necessarily wrong in themselves.

Now, I guess kind of now that you stated that, we've got to go to the issue of is secular music a sin?

And like, God questions our work to have a extremely good and helpful audience. He kind of narrows it down to like three ways that we're able to identify is this truly a sin?

One, the purpose of music. Number two, the style of music. And the last, the content of the lyrics.

You want to talk about those first two? Yeah, you may have to remind me. I'm glad you brought up God questions because I want to do a shameless plug.

A lot of my understanding of scripture, I mean, I'm indebted to men of the faith that have really good commentaries like MacArthur, R .C.

Sproul, and apologists like James Watt. But God questions is one of those websites that really helped me.

For one, I'll find questions that I have, and they do such a good job of staying biblical and staying true to God's word.

So like God questions, you can just run a single word, secular. And then the first question that pops up is should a

Christian listen to secular music? I mean, that's such a wonderful tool to be able to have at your disposal.

So I wanted to do a shameless plug for gotquestions .org there. And so you're talking about these three primary factors to consider.

Number one, did you say the purpose of music? Number two, the style of music? And three, the content of the lyrics? Is that right?

I had to pull up that article. So the purpose of the music, that's a good question to consider.

Sometimes it's hard to judge intent, right? And so when I'm hearing a secular song,

I keep using John Wall's song, it's hard for me to know what the purpose of that song was.

Now to me, I'm either thinking basketball, kind of dancing and having fun. So from a worldly perspective, their purpose of that music is worldly.

But for the Christian, I think there is a little bit of liberty to be able to do those things to the glory of God.

So KJ, let me share with you a principle, though, that I try to guard myself when

I start to analyze some of these things. I had a really good friend of mine, he said a quote that when we were talking about some of the same things here, and I'll never forget it.

He said that in order to step out of the light, in order to step into a gray area, you have to step out of the light.

And that really spoke leagues to me on hard questions of should I do this or should

I not? And so when we're stepping into a gray area, we need to reflect and realize, you know what, in some ways,

I have to step out of the light, which is clear, to give God glory to even ask some of these hard questions. So anyway, that's just something

I try to take with me as I'm going through these types of questions. So I don't know if you want to chime in on this point.

Yeah, even kind of like what you said, like the specific song of Joan Wall, we probably won't know Soulja Boy's intent.

Sure, I don't know if he was going to be saved, but last time I checked, I don't think he was saved. So I know many times, many artists are thinking of one thing, which is making money.

And so the purpose behind specifically why they made a certain song is to get a hit so they can provide for the family themselves.

But the overall purpose of music, is that for the glory of God or is that like what's the overall purpose of music?

Because we know like David, for example, he used the purpose of music specifically for worshipping God. But King Saul, as you guys know, the person that was trying to kill

David, he had David play the harp to like soothe him. You guys see that in 1

Samuel 16. And also like the Israelites also use musical instruments like Wound of Danger and Nehemiah 4.

We got like, I guess the overall different uses of the purpose of music. That makes sense?

Am I making sense? Yes. Yeah, so that's where it's hard for me to always know the purpose of music.

And I know the number two thing here was the style of music. Now, this is something that's interesting because all different types and styles of music will gravitate to different kinds of people.

So I tend to like more of the hip hop and rap type things. I don't know why. I'm just wired that way.

So I like some of that. And I talked to some older people that just hate it. They won't even give

Lecrae or some of these guys a chance because they associate with, you know, rap with all this other baggage and stuff.

So to me, the purpose of music sometimes is hard to tell. The style of music will gravitate to certain people.

But this third point, like you pointed out, to me, this is the kicker. To me, this is where I'm really into analyzing that because the content of the lyrics you can objectively analyze.

And sometimes through that, you can know what the purpose of the music is. And so it's that content. I used to fool myself and think, well,

I just like the beats. I just like the style of this music. I'm not really paying attention to the lyrics.

Those lyrics have a way of penetrating your soul and that gets filled in your mind. And you've heard of the saying garbage in, garbage out.

That just has a way of permeating itself within you. And it will affect you and hinder your sanctification.

Now, leading up to the style of music, I guess I'll say this, too, like with the Christian liberty we were discussing earlier.

So the Bible, while the primary purpose of music doesn't seem, I guess it's primarily for we should use all the things you said for the glory of God.

The Bible doesn't allow us, I guess, to use music for other areas, for example.

Can we see that? You know, God allows us to use music for other areas. Oh, yeah, for sure.

For sure. Some people are musically gifted. And I will say on top of a gifting, it's a craft.

So people study and analyze music. But I really do want to challenge Christians to think about not how close can they get to the line before it's actually sinful or not in this gray area.

Because I was telling you beforehand, someone might look at my playlist or some of the movies that I've watched and point out an inconsistency.

And all that that proves is I'm still being sanctified. And I want to challenge us to really examine our lives to see what things are hindering us versus what are edifying and praiseworthy to God.

So I tend to push more towards that principle of really weighing out what our conscience tells us and to challenge our conscience to measure it with God's truth.

Now, kind of piggyback off what you said, the issue of legalism that we talked about earlier.

A lot of people who are legalistic in this sense, they kind of make the Christian faith as a list of do's and don'ts.

They would associate, when we think about the style of music, like you said, a lot of people, when they hear

Christian rap songs, their mind immediately goes to the worldly rap out there about drugs, sex and money.

But the purpose or intent behind a Christian artist making music could be for the glory of God.

Now, legalism tends to kind of shift our focus, I guess. No, we can't do this because this is what

I'm associating this with and it's more legalistic. We can't do this because of this right here. But the

Bible doesn't explicitly say we can't do this. It's all preference in a sense of what makes us.

And so, number three, I guess the content of the lyrics, like you kind of talked about earlier, this is the most helpful thing,

I guess, benefit this argument. Should we be doing such a thing?

So like you've been hitting that all episode. Like the words, I guess for me, the biggest thing that helps me is like realizing what are the words these people are saying?

I believe I said your question, you know, you know, beforehand. So let's say, for example, like Post Malone, you said or like Soulja Boy or Nicki Minaj or Cardi B, Beyonce, whoever you want to name.

Is it possible for like Beyonce or Post Malone to like have a neutral song, even though overall they may be lost and maybe an unbeliever?

Is it possible for them to have a neutral song that's not gratifying the flesh, but it's also neutral in that sense?

Am I making sense? Absolutely. And I think that's a hard question that each

Christian would have to weigh their mind and conscience, because I think it's possible for there to be neutral songs like the song

I referenced earlier about John Wall. For me, that seems pretty neutral. And I can have fun with that song with some guys on the ball court.

And my conscience is clear in terms of I'm giving God glory in this moment. It's hard for me to listen to some secular songs that are totally, you know, immersed in debauchery, sex, drugs, greed.

In my mind, what sense can a pastor say that they love Post Malone?

How this is my thing in process. How can they do that to the glory of God? I can't do it.

I absolutely cannot for the life of me figure out that. So that's why this is a hard issue, is because what's maybe clear in my mind, in my walk of sanctification, may not be as clear for another

Christian's walk in their sanctification. However, there are clear objective standards, for example, when we shift to like the issue of drinking alcohol.

Well, drunkenness is the clear objective standard. But then we read Psalms and some of these other passages that talk about the blessing of drinking wine in a particular context.

And I think it's great. Now, then I would want to caution the Christian. Don't be posting online your Christian liberty.

You know what I mean? Think back to the example, if you don't mind me reading this passage real quick,

KJ. How did the Apostle Paul utilize his Christian liberty? Did he flaunt it and abuse it and cause, you know, other legalistic weaker brothers to stumble?

Absolutely not. This is what he said in First Corinthians 9, 22 and 23. To the weak,

I became weak that I might win the weak. I've become all things to all people that by all means

I might save some. Now, through the means of preaching the gospel, I do it all for the sake of the gospel that I may share with them in its blessings.

So this is what I would want Christians to consider. The Apostle Paul used his Christian liberty to win the lost world.

He met them where they were at. And so we have liberty to engage in some of these contexts.

And I'm saying it's not to abuse them, but it was as a means to win other people.

So here's kind of an extreme example. You know, I grew up in a legalistic Baptist home where tattoos were pretty much condemned.

Well, that's legalism. There's nothing in the New Testament for Christians that says that we thou shall not have a tattoo.

And you can't go to Leviticus 28, 19 and say that's, you know, that's learning from the

Old Testament. So you shouldn't get a tattoo. Well, that's tethered to the whole Levitical system of Israel being sanctified from the pagan nations.

So you can't cherry pick one there without taking the whole Levitical law. But my point is, what would it say if you live in a culture where you're going to have more opportunities to talk with people if you have a tattoo?

I'm over here saying, well, the Apostle Paul would have gotten a tattoo so he could win some. He met them where they were at.

And another example is, you know, we realize that circumcision is no way a necessity in order to receive the gospel by faith.

Yet the Apostle Paul circumcised Timothy to help in their evangelism. And I'm like, what is the

Apostle Paul doing? He's using his Christian liberty to meet all people where they are at.

And so that's why this is a issue of the conscience. And we try our best to whatever we do to give

God glory and not cause our brothers to stumble. Now, I want to kind of, I guess,

I guess, get this thought, I guess, explain it a little bit better. Like somebody feel kind of,

I guess, ungrateful in this sense. Post Malone, overall, we kind of have an idea, a general idea of what kind of music he kind of produces in a sense.

It's not going to be songs that's going to gratify you, glorify the Lord. But if Post Malone had a song, for example, that was neutral, would you find yourself listening to it or you don't think you could?

You know, so this is this is good because maybe my conscience would hinder me from listening to Post Malone at all because of all the other stuff

I've been exposed to. But I will say, I think it's possible for secular worldly people to produce morally neutral songs that could be to the glory of God or not.

So that gets to the very heart of what we're talking about. I think for some people, their consciences could allow for these morally neutral songs and then some

Christians couldn't. And so I personally have not listened to a ton of Post Malone, was not impressed for what

I did find and research, but just enough to be like, he's not for me. And I would just encourage

Christians to really think about the content of what they're listening to. I do think it's possible to listen to some of these artists that are morally neutral.

But you know what I think, K .J., if you really sit down alone and pray about it, I think a lot of Christians will find more often than not that this is a gray area that they can't give

God glory in. And they're better off basking in the light, really having that peace with our

Lord and singing songs, psalms, hymns and spiritual songs that glorify God.

I think more often than not, that's what we will find ourselves doing is probably purging our playlist rather than, you know, justifying them.

Definitely. And I'm pretty sure, too, by now, people kind of have a general idea that this is a secondary issue.

As you guys know, the issue is not going to determine whether or not you go to heaven. In fact, the only thing that determines that is if you have faith in Jesus.

And so this is a secondary issue. So don't leave there knowing that, oh, K .J. and Jeremiah, they're going to hell.

We've fallen to like legalism. That's kind of why we talked about that first. And we also have

Christian liberty. I guess this is my last question before I get to the gospel. So like with Christian liberty, like, for example, you said earlier that Paul never flaunted his

Christian liberty, even though there are certain things that he did that wasn't exactly a sin. But there are certain things that can cause other

Christians to stumble. So, for example, let's say that me and you, we have a particular song that we enjoy, like the

John Wall. And let's say like if we were, you know, riding somewhere and we had a student from the church in the car with us, we probably wouldn't play a specific secular song, even though it may not be a sin.

And it's not like I'm trying to hide anything, but I don't want to cause another brother or sister to stumble. What's your opinion about that?

That's perfect. I think to be above reproach, especially those people in authority, really need to be on top of this, right?

Really consider what their brothers and sisters, where they're at in their walk with Christ. So not only should you be on guard like what you're saying and probably not playing that before you know a person, but number two, if they express how that kind of hinders their conscience in every way,

I want to do what the Apostle Paul did. I want to meet them where they're at, and I want to apologize. Hey, I'm so sorry.

I would never want to cause you to stumble. And a lot of times people appreciate you sharing your heart in terms of caring for them.

So I think Christians should really take that to the forefront of their minds that we really do not want to cause someone else to stumble, even our weaker legalistic brothers.

I think it doesn't talk about that in Romans 15. I've taken care of the people that are weak. Now, of course, all of us are weak as well.

So remember that. But I want to, you know,

Jonathan Edwards, he preached probably many people called the greatest sermon ever preached. The center is in anger, anger God. And every time, every day of my mind shifts, it is one statement.

In that sermon, Edwards said, there's nothing that separates you. That is the unbeliever from hell, except the mere air.

Now I think about that, what Edwards was saying is nothing separates the ungodly from hell, only the air and God, you know, keeping somebody out of hell.

Well, I don't want to talk about this time, you know, kind of scaring people into heaven. But the problem is all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

And God deserves to throw us into hell and he can easily do it. And actually he will do it for all those who continue in sin.

But what is the Christian hope, Jeremiah, that we have as believers today that brings us joy? Yes, I believe it's

Titus 2 that talks about our blessed hope. We're looking for the Savior's return.

And like you said, we all fall short of God's perfect divine standard. And what that means is that we're sinners.

We're not good people. We shatter the law of God. And so when we rightly see ourself in God's holy, perfect law as not being good, but actually a sinner.

Well, that begins for us to see our need for a Savior, the one who was perfectly obedient from all of his heart, with all of his mind, with all of his soul and everything that he did.

And that's none other than Jesus Christ. He is the righteousness of God made manifest to us.

And so that's our blessed hope is putting all of our trust, repenting and believing in Jesus Christ and him alone.

And when you put your faith in him, all of your sin is forgiven, completely nailed to the cross, and God removes that sin from your account as far as the

East is from the West. And then we long to be with him one day in resurrected glory. That is our blessed hope,

KJ. Thank you so much, man, for telling us that. And like you said, I guess a lot of people, too.

When I think about, you know, I believe it was Peter, after he preached the gospel in Acts 2, the people that were listening to it, they said, and what do we do then?

And he simply says, be baptized. Now, baptism doesn't save you. It's simply the outer thing of what

God's already done in you. But the act of repentance, a lot of times people have a hard time concepting what repentance is.

They think it's turning from ungodliness to being godly. But repentance doesn't turn from ungodliness straight to God.

It's simply by having faith in Christ. That is what saves us. Kind of like I talked about earlier, our repentance doesn't make us, it does in this sense, that you turn from sin.

That's what God tells us to turn from sin. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

You guys know it's a mourning for sin. You should hate sin if God hates it. But the idea of repentance itself is never, for us, perfect because we keep on sinning daily.

And I guess God is sanctifying us. But in this sense, true repentance is having faith in Christ, but also

God's the one that helped turn your affections away from sin day by day. But your faith is what saves you and keeps you saved daily in Christ.

That's what Paul says in Romans 10. What is this? I forgot how it goes. I'm going to get the verse wrong.

But that's essentially what saves us, our faith in Christ. And so don't turn from ungodliness to godliness, which you want to do, but turn from ungodliness to God.

Okay, that's what's going to save your faith in Jesus Christ alone. Hey, Jay, can I speak to repentance just real quick?

I think the key, for one, repentance is a change of mind.

So we're really getting to a heart issue when we're talking about repentance. In your heart, turn from loving the things of this world.

In your heart, turn to loving Jesus and trusting in him. And so that's why repentance is an ongoing action of God working in your life.

We will sin, so we must bear fruit of repentance, a continual turning from the lust of the flesh and a continual turning to Christ.

So repentance is huge, but it's not moralism. It's not trying to clean up your life to get it right so you can be saved.

That's why words and definitions and studying what the Bible means in its context is so important.

It's because the Bible does such a wonderful job of being clear, telling us what words mean and how to have a right standing, a right relationship with God.

That's right on the money, man. Appreciate it, man. Do you have any last words? What do you want to say, man, before we get out of here today? Bundle up if it's cold.

But thank you, KJ, for having me back on. I hope to do some more of these talking about hard questions.

The way I like about the question is secular music simple is because it's such a strong application.

We all, as Christians, should be asking these types of hard questions. What does the

Bible speak to when it comes to questions like these? And my heart goes back to that.

One of the first things we talked about. First Corinthians 1031, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you drink, do all to the glory of God.

And go back to that principle. When you have a hard question, can I give God glory in it? If I can, praise

God. If you can't or you're not sure, we ought to stay away from it. Amen. And again, remember,

Jesus is the most important thing that you can know and also trust in. So I think as a Catechism question says, you know, what is the chief in the man?

And the answer is by God and joy forever. So I hope prayer, that's the lifestyle for all of us

Christians, man. But thank you so much, man, Jeremiah, for coming on to this and helping me. No problem. All right, man,