Why Theology? :: Is Secular Music A Sin?

What is up, guys? My name is KJ, short for Khalil Jones, and this is Y Theology. Today, we got a very special episode, but before that, I have with me Pastor Jeremiah. Can you please.

Introduce yourself, man? Yeah, KJ, thanks for having me back on. That's a good sign. You had me back on, so I appreciate that. Like you said, my name is Jeremiah Nortier. I serve as a pastor here in Jonesboro, Arkansas at a church called 12 -5 Church, and it's a blessing to be a part of a church plant and just to kind of help build things from the ground up, so thanks for having.

Me back on, KJ. No problem, man. My pastor said when he heard our first episode, he said, we gelled together, so I was like, let me get back over here again, and I'll just play. But I definitely played the last time, so it's definitely been fun.

I'm pretty sure you're like me. Me and you both have snowed in. We're both in Arkansas. What's going on the last couple of days? I think yesterday, there was like already like six inches of snow on the ground,.

And like right now, it's snowing right now. Yes, we're buried here in Jonesboro. It's dangerous to be outside driving on the road, so perfect time to do a podcast.

Hey, there we go. I got a new mic, too, so I don't know. Now, have you been keeping up with the NBA lately?

So my wife and I, we don't actually have cable, so I just catch some highlights on YouTube, and right now, actually, I'm wearing my Lakers number 23 shirt, so representing.

You need to just increase the number one to 24 if it'll be COVID.

Mad, mad respect for the Black Mamba, for sure.

He was always my favorite basketball player. I hated when he died. I know Curran right now. My favorite player is Curry, so people give me a hard time. I'm like, how is your favorite player Curry? Because I've been a Lakers fan since 2009, so I was happy when we won.

This recent year. I have to confess, I hopped on the bandwagon with LeBron, so I've only recently been for the Lakers. Man.

Honesty. I guess it's good you're still a fan, though, so I guess it's good. That's all that matters, still a fan. We got something in common, outside of our theology, basketball. You used to play basketball in high school as well?

Yes, and it's bittersweet, because I'm one of those guys that'll reminisce on the glory days, was a part of a state championship win as a point guard, but I tore my Achilles tendon years ago, back in 2017, so I've lost some of my quick step.

You were averaging 60 points a game.

That's funny. No, no, no. I would average around 10, but I was definitely not the star, by any means. I was just part of a good team.

I'm just messing with you, man. That's still good, though. That's funny. Now, I want to talk to you about this issue at hand. I know a lot of times we think about secular music, people don't see it as a logical issue, but I guess underneath the surface, there lies two, I guess, greater things, but the topic at hand today we're going to talk about is, is secular music a sin?

Legalism and Christian Liberty in the Question of Secular Music

Now, those two topics, before we can even get to secular music, we have to deal with what's legalism, but also what is known as Christian liberty. Which one of those do you want to start.

With, man? Yes, so they're both super important, and something to point out is legalism and Christian liberty, those terms aren't necessarily found in the Bible, so defining how these terms have developed over time is super important.

I guess we can begin with legalism. Legalism is essentially adhering to a list of commands, like do's and don'ts, and this is hard for Christians because legalism can be a dividing line issue in terms of our salvation.

If you're trusting in yourself, that's legalism. Trusting in your good works to obey or not obey, and that's to 100 miss the gospel, so legalism can be a first-tier issue on missing the gospel of grace.

As we continue to develop this out, I think what we're going to really be getting at in terms of secular music for the Christian is in terms of our sanctification. So sanctification is that process of becoming separated from the world and being conformed more and more into the image of Christ, so what does secular music look like for the Christian in their sanctifying walk with Christ?

What do you think about kind of framing it that way? Say it one more time. So like legalism, and when we're talking about Christians, you know, is it sin for Christians to listen to secular music? The answer is it depends.

It depends because I'll tell you a guiding principle, because you're not going to find a verse that says thou shall not listen to Post Malone, right? We're not going to find verses in the Bible that say that, but we do have principles like 1 Corinthians 10 31 says, so whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do to the glory of God, and so when we're talking about legalism in terms of our walk with Christ, we have to ask the question, whatever we're doing, whether it's listening to secular music, whether it's whatever we're watching on the TV, can we give God glory in whatever the activity is?

That's essentially the primary verse of the Protestant Reformation for soli deo gloria. Whatever you do, we do all to the glory of God, and so we're asking questions, is it sinful to listen to secular music?

It depends. Is the song you're listening to, can you give God glory while listening to it? And so that to me is a good guiding principle to really deter us away if we should listen to something and we should not listen to it.

As a writer of the mail too, I was thinking too, kind of like when you define, you know, legalism, you know, a lot of people, you know, even today, you know, I know Christians today to kind of struggle with this issue because on one side, we do want to keep the law because we want to please, you know, the Father.

At the same time, like the law we know, Paul tells us in Romans 3, it's kind of going to show us that we can't keep the law of the saints. We all fail of keeping the law, that's why we're all sinners, and so like the legalistic point of view, it fails to realize that we can't truly keep the law, that's why we need a savior, and so kind of one aspect of it about legalism.

Now it's oftentimes too, you know, legalism is not just something unbelievers can do, but it's also something that true believers can even fall into as well. Yep, for sure. No, that's.

Really good because after we're saved by grace, it's not that we keep the law, God's commandments in order to stay saved. That's where this legalistic mentality can creep into the Christian walk. Well, yeah, I'm already saved, but I'm gonna keep God's favor somehow by doing, obeying a list of commandments.

Well, that's legalism, and the other side of this conversation, we will talk about Christian liberty and how examples in the scripture, the apostle Paul himself, how did he use his liberty? Did he use his liberty to say, guys, I'm free to do whatever I want, or did he watch what he did in light of his Christian brethren, not causing them to stumble and things like that?

So legalism, though, super important to realize that it's your salvation. Justification is never built on the foundation of you keeping the laws or not, but like what you said, our heart's desire as Christians is to be obedient to God, and God.

Will bless that for sure. I heard someone say too, maybe my pastor in my church, I think a couple Sundays ago, he said something along the lines of this, like when we think about salvation, salvation is simply trusting in Jesus and having faith in him alone.

Did you guys know? Glory, I got the songwriters to my back, faith and love, I bet. I got sidetracked. But they essentially have faith along with Christ, that's what it says. We're given grace, you know, received by God, but it's by our faith alone that saves us, not by works.

And so even our repentance today, it still doesn't justify us before God, it's only faith alone, because our repentance is even the true repentance. God's the one that kind of formulates that repentance over a period of time to do sanctification.

And so I think it's a passage in Colossians chapter 2, verse 20 to 23, that kind of Paul talks about legalism a little bit. He kind of warns us of it. It states this, since you die with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why is it that you still belong to it?

Do you submit to its rules? Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch. These are all destined to perish with use, because these are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, where it does self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in showing sensual indulgence.

And so it's kind of like a little bit too, like what legalism is in a sense, like a list of do's and don'ts. So it's like turning the Christian faith, which is simply faith alone in Christ. Again, I'm not saying that we don't keep God's law, we do.

Not to go to heaven, because we want to please the Father, of course. We know these things. All of us are bound by the moral law, but it's like turning that into a list of do's and don'ts after we've already received salvation.

Yes, so that's perfect. We got to understand legalism does not earn us a right standing before God. Jesus did all the works necessary to please the Father, and it's upon that finished work on the cross and payment for sin.

That's how we are justified, by receiving Christ and his perfection, by faith alone. That is so huge. That is so huge, because to put your trust in anything other than Jesus is to once again miss the gospel completely.

And so when we're talking about legalism, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, Cage. I know you're interviewing me, but 1 Corinthians 6 .12, this to me is once again another good principle of what it looks like as far as what we ought to do and what we ought not to do, and this kind of is going to bleed over into Christian liberty.

So Paul said in this verse, all things are lawful to me, but not all things are helpful or beneficial. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything. I love that because we can apply that principle verse to the question, you know, is it, is secular music a sin?

Well, it depends. On one hand, are we free to, you know, we're not bound by the law. We're free to do whatever our hearts desire to give God glory, and so just because we're free to do a lot of things, we've got to ask the question, is it beneficial for us?

You know what I mean? Is it beneficial to listen to Cardi B? Is it beneficial to listen to Post Malone? Well, when you start looking at some of the content that's very much worldly and the antithesis of what it means to give God glory and it opposes Christ, I begin to look back to that even more fundamental principle.

Can I give God glory in pumping that type of music and lyrics into my heart and soul? Well, I'm starting to see that that is not in fact helpful at all. In fact, it's doing the opposite. It's hindering my sanctification.

Not that I'm going to lose salvation, but is this something that's going to be beneficial to my spiritual walk? And so it's hard for me. This is where I think we're dabbling in a gray area. Like when I have a strong conviction about, you know, guarding my heart from secular music, I'm very slow to push my conviction onto somebody else because we're all at different points in our sanctification.

So what do you think about some of that, KJ? That definitely, everything you just kind of talked about, it kind of points to this topic that we're going to discuss, which is known as Christian liberty.

And so the reason why I start off with legalism first, because like, I'm going to be pointing back to legalism as we kind of dialogue throughout this conversation, but I want to make sure we kind of properly define that.

So like, it'd be great to talk about it. People would know. Now, what is Christian liberty? So, of course, you know, the words legalism and Christian liberty, they're not found directly in the Bible, but like Trinity, the word is not found in the Bible.

We have biblical concepts of the Trinity throughout the Bible. Well, in a way, Christian liberty is a similar concept. The word's not found, but the concept of it is found. And so basically Christians, you guys remember Paul, I believe it was first Corinthians, is it 15, I believe?

Maybe Romans 15 on the people of God. I think the Gentiles, they were like eating meat that was used for like worshiping like idols and stuff, but they were eating meat. But like what they didn't know is like some of the Jews in the church, they were like feeling convictions about these Gentiles eating this meat in particular that was used by idols.

And so Paul says is that, you know, don't cause your brother to stumble. So essentially what Paul was getting at is the particular act of eating meat in itself was not, you know, a sin. What was a sin, it was causing our fellow brothers to sin or stumble.

And that's kind of a little bit of what Christian liberty is in a sense, is that basically there are certain things in the Bible that God does not say is forbidden, but so we have a little bit of freedom in these areas.

But I know, like, let me kind of take a couple steps back. So a lot of times people who, I guess, go out of hand with Christian liberty, they kind of have like a loose lifestyle of reckless living, and that's not what I'm promoting by no means.

But there are certain things, for example, the area of secular music, you know, is this just truly a sin? And I believe like our dialogue with Christian liberty will kind.

Of help us with that. What do you think, Donahue? Absolutely. We really, so like what you said in Romans chapter 14, and I believe it's 1 Corinthians 8, Paul cares deeply about his brethren that is struggling with legalism.

So you got to think about these Jewish Christian converts. They're struggling by letting go of these dietary restrictions. You know, Jesus came and fulfilled all that. And we see it in the book of Acts that Peter received a vision and realized that this was a picture that the gospel is supposed to go into the Gentile unbelieving world.

And so now all things are clean. Christians can eat virtually whatever they want to eat as long as it's given in thankfulness to God. And so, but Paul is saying, look, as Christians, we are not called to abuse our Christian liberty.

You know, one point of application is sometimes it's concerning. I get on Facebook and I see a lot of the reform crowd, you know, smoking cigars and drinking alcohol and posting their favorite brand. And it's like, look, a lot of our brethren struggle with legalism here, and this is going to be a stumbling block.

And when you hear Paul in Romans 14 verse 13, he says, therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

And that verse I read earlier, to me, this is a crucial point to understand. He says, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful or beneficial. Paul realized that just because he was free to virtually do anything, you know, apart from the law, doesn't mean that we should, we ought to do that.

And I'm thinking about, there's so many people in an authority position where we really need to be careful. Parents, your kids are watching every step that you make. So what does it look like to watch a TV show where they're very loose with their words and very blasphemous and have really crude humor?

Well, if you're laughing along with watching that, what does that tell your kids implicitly? Right? If you're listening to music that is cursing and talking about, you know, very sexual and promiscuous language, and you're jamming out to that, what message are you teaching your children?

Now, KJ, if I could tell you just a brief story, something that kind of rubbed me the wrong way as a pastor amongst pastors, is I went to the G3 conference last year, and wonderful, love it, but I was listening to, you know, having conversations with other pastors, and one pastor said, man, Post Malone is my jam.

I love it. And, you know, I went and looked up, you know, who that is and some of the songs, and it really gave me almost anxiety thinking, oh my goodness, this is an undershepherd that guards the flock of God, and he's pumping that kind of music into his mind and his heart.

Now, once again, for the life of me, I can't do that to the glory of God, and my only point with that story is people are watching and listening to what you say, and as pastors, we're called to be above reproach, and so that's something that each person is going to have to give an account before God and really examine their heart to see if they can actually give God glory in listening to that type of secular music, and I want to draw a line somewhere and say there is some objective statement.

The harder questions with, you know, are all secular songs sinful? Well, perhaps not. There are maybe some neutral songs that I've heard, too. Me and you talked about, you know, I listen to the John Wall.

Everybody do the John Wall. To me, hey, I can give God glory by singing that fun song, right, but there is some line we need to be careful when we start to fill our minds with an ideology that is the exact opposite to glorifying God,.

So I don't know if you want to comment with some of those things there. Yeah, so a little bit kind of things you just said. I'm going to kind of look at it from this. You even mentioned, like, you know, smoking cigars, like, drinking, so again, like, with Christian liberty, the Bible doesn't strictly forbid us from doing those activities, but we knew certain applications.

For example, the Bible says don't be a drunkard. The Bible says don't be over-minded. Like, we have a lot of applications that we can take. Well, like, excessive use of those activities will lead to sin, but also, like, the reason behind why we do certain things or acts also fall into sin, which is idolatry most of times.

Like, for example, someone who drinks, for example, I haven't been holy all my life, so I used to drink, you know, drinks such as, like, Hennessy and, like, Matrona. Like, if I want to do that now as a Christian, I don't think, like, even though, like, like I said, the Bible doesn't strictly forbid us from drinking, if I were to go to the store and buy that, people around knowing I'm a preacher, they would be like, okay, why is KJ buying, you know, alcohol?

You know, what is KJ going to do with, the image it carries is kind of, is negative, and it's going to cause for myself, I don't think it's, I mean, I don't have, I don't know, maybe somebody has a strong tolerance to alcohol, but drinking certain alcohols, like, for example, like, there's a difference between alcohol and the sense of, like, wine.

It's the same thing, but, like, hard liquor and wine. Like, if you're drinking hard liquor, I mean, there's a reason why you're probably doing that versus, like, if you're just sipping on, like, wine at a marriage, you see what I mean?

It's kind of different with that, but with this issue, is secular music or sin? We probably should define what we mean by secular, huh? Yep, yep, yeah, and my first thought.

To secular music is those songs that are in principle of the world, like, we see it existing in the unbelieving society. Now, since we're all made in God's image, I believe even the secular music can say some good things that, like, when you hear songs about, you know, sacrificial love for one another, loving each other, giving yourself to someone in that capacity, those are good principles, and through a Christian lens, we could hear that and immediately apply it in a God-glorifying light, so that's kind of my first thoughts when I hear the word secular.

I'm just thinking of unbelievers, those songs that are worldly in principle, but they're not necessarily sinful because we're trying to get to the heart issue, so, like, when I said, you know, John Wall, to me, that's a secular song, but it's not inherently sinful, right?

To me, that's going.

To be a heart issue. Now, before we even get to, like, if secular music is sin, is just doing.

Anything secular at all a sin, do you feel like? See, that's a great question. I would say no, so, like, basketball, playing basketball is secular, and sometimes my analogies and illustrations are basketball because that's the world I grew up in for so long, but no, check this out, something secular like basketball is kind of neutral in a sense.

Now, when I think about that is I can either play basketball selfishly, I can play basketball and make it an idol and it not give God glory, however, through regeneration, the Holy Spirit at work in my heart and being in Christ, I now can play basketball to the glory of God to be an example of what it means to love others through teamwork and all these things and to build relationships in hopes to share the gospel, so that's why I'd say these secular activities aren't necessarily wrong in and of themselves.

Now, I guess, kind of, now that you stated that, we've got to go to the issue, if secular music is sin, and, like, God questions our work to have an extremely good and helpful audience. He kind of narrows it down to, like, three ways that we're able to identify is this truly a sin.

It's, one, the purpose of music, number two, the style of music, and the last, the content of the lyrics. You want to kind of talk about those two?

Yeah, you may have to remind me. I'm glad you brought up God questions because I want to do a shameless plug. A lot of my understanding of scripture, I mean, I'm indebted to men of the faith that have really good commentaries like MacArthur, R .C. Sproul, and apologists like James Wyant, but God questions is one of those websites that really helped me.

For one, I'll find questions that I have, and they do such a good job of staying biblical and staying true to God's word. So, like, God questions, you can just run a single word, secular, and then the first question that pops up is, should a Christian listen to secular music?

I mean, that's just such a wonderful tool to be able to have at your disposal. So, I wanted to do a shameless plug for gotquestions .org there. And so, you're talking about these three primary factors to consider.

Number one, did you say the purpose of music? Number two, the style of music? And three, the content of the lyrics? Is that right? I had to pull up that article. So, the purpose of the music, that's a good question to consider.

Sometimes it's hard to judge intent, right? And so, when I'm hearing a secular song, I keep using, you know, John Wall's song. It's hard for me to know what the purpose of that song was. Now, to me, I'm either thinking basketball, kind of dancing and having fun.

So, from a worldly perspective, their purpose of that music is worldly. But for the Christian, I think there is a little bit of liberty to be able to do those things to the glory of God. So, K .J., let me share with you a principle, though, that I try to guard myself when I start to analyze some of these things.

I had a really good friend of mine, he said a quote that when we were talking about some of the same things here, and I'll never forget it. He said that in order to step out of the light, in order to step into a gray area, you have to step out of the light.

And that really spoke leagues to me on, like, hard questions of should I do this or should I not? And so, when we're stepping into a gray area, we need to reflect and realize, you know what? In some ways, I have to step out of the light, which is clear, to give God glory to even, you know, ask some of these hard questions.

So, anyway, that's just something I try to take with me as I'm going through these types of questions. So, I don't know if you want to chime in on this.

Point. Yeah, even kind of like what you said, like, the specific song of, like, John Wall, we probably won't know, like, you know, Soulja Boy's intent. Sure, I don't know if he saved, but, like, last time I checked, I don't think he was saved.

So, like, I know many times many artists are thinking of one thing, which is making money. And so, the purpose behind specifically why they made a certain song is, like, to get a hit, so they can revive a family of themselves.

But the overall purpose of music, is that for the glory of God? Or is that, like, what's the overall purpose of music? Because we know, like, David, for example, he used the purpose of music specifically for worshiping God.

But King saw, as you guys, from the person that was trying to kill David, he had David play the harp to, like, soothe him. You guys see that in First Samuel 16? And also, like, the Israelites also used musical instruments, like, Warn of Danger and Nehemiah 4.

We got, like, I guess the overall different uses of the purpose of music. That makes sense? Am I making sense? Yes. Yeah. So, that's where it's hard for me.

To always know the purpose of music. And I know the number two thing here was the style of music. Now, this is something that's interesting because all different types and styles of music will gravitate to different kinds of people.

So, I tend to like more of the hip-hop and rap type things. I don't know why. I'm just wired that way. So, I like some of that. And I talked to some older people that just hate it. They won't even give Lecrae or some of these guys a chance because they associate with, you know, rap with all this other baggage and stuff.

So, to me, the purpose of music sometimes is hard to tell. The style of music will gravitate to certain people. But this third point, like you pointed out, to me, this is the kicker. Like, to me, this is where I'm really into analyzing that because the content of the lyrics, you can objectively analyze.

And sometimes through that, you can know what the purpose of the music is. And so, it's that content. I used to fool myself in thinking, well, I just like the beats. I just like the style of this music.

I'm not really paying attention to the lyrics. Those lyrics have a way of penetrating your soul. And that gets filled in your mind. And you've heard of the saying, garbage in, garbage out. That just has a way of permeating itself within you.

And it will affect you and hinder your sanctification.

Now, leading up to the style of music, I guess I'll say this, too. Like, with the Christian liberty that we were discussing earlier. So, the Bible, while the primary purpose of music doesn't seem, yeah, I guess it's primarily for, we should use all the things you said for the glory of God.

The Bible doesn't, the Bible does allow us, I guess, to use music for other areas, for example. Can we see that, you know? Well, God allows us to use music for other areas.

Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. Some people are musically gifted. And I will say, on top of a gifting, it's a craft. So, people study and analyze music. But I really do want to challenge Christians to think about not how close can they get to the line before it's actually sinful or not in this gray area.

Because I was telling you beforehand, someone might look at my playlists or some of the movies that I've watched and point out an inconsistency. And all that that proves is I'm still being sanctified.

And I want to challenge us to really examine our lives to see what things are hindering us versus what are edifying and praiseworthy to God. So, I tend to push more towards that principle of really weighing out what our conscience tells us and to challenge.

Our conscience to measure it with God's truth. Now, kind of picking back up what you just said, the issue of legalism that we talked about earlier, a lot of people who are legalistic in this sense, they kind of make the Christian faith as a list of do's and don'ts.

They always associate, when we think about the style of these, like you said, like a lot of people, when they hear like Christian rap songs, their mind immediately goes to, you know, the worldly rap out there about like drugs, sex, and money.

But the purpose or intent behind a Christian artist making music could be for the glory of God. Because now, legalism tends to kind of shift our focus. I guess, you know, we can't do this because this is what I'm associating this with and it's more legalistic.

You know, we can't do this because of this right here. But the Bible doesn't explicitly say we can't do this. It's all preference in a sense of what makes us. And so, number three, I guess the content of the lyrics, like you kind of talked about earlier, this is like the most helpful thing, I guess, benefit this argument.

Should we be doing such a thing? So, like, you've been hitting that all episode. But like the words, I guess for me, the biggest thing that helps me is like realizing what are the words these people are saying.

I believe I said your question, you know, beforehand. Some of the lines are like this. So, like, let's say, for example, like Post Malone, you said, or like Soulja Boy, or Nicki Minaj, or Cardi B, Beyonce, whoever you want to name.

Is it possible for, like, Beyonce or Post Malone to, like, have a neutral song, even though overall they may be lost and maybe an unbeliever? Is it possible for them, like, to have a neutral song that's not gratifying the flesh, but it's also neutral in that sense?

Am.

I making sense? Absolutely. And I think that's a hard question that each Christian would have to weigh their mind and conscience, because I think it's possible for there to be neutral songs like the song I referenced earlier about John Wall.

For me, it seems pretty neutral, and I can have fun with that song with some guys on the ball court, and my conscience is clear in terms of I'm giving God glory in this moment. It's hard for me to listen to some secular songs that are totally, you know, immersed in debauchery, sex, drugs, greed.

In my mind, what sense can a pastor say that they love Post Malone? How, and this is my thing in process, how can they do that to the glory of God? I can't do it. I absolutely cannot for the life of me figure out that.

So that's why this is a hard issue, is because what's maybe clear in my mind, in my walk of sanctification, may not be as clear for another Christian's walk in their sanctification. However, there are clear objective standards.

For example, when we shift to like the issue of drinking alcohol, well, drunkenness is the clear objective standard, but then we read Psalms and some of these other passages that talk about the blessing of drinking wine in a particular context, and I think it's great.

Now, then I would want to caution the Christian. Don't be posting online your Christian liberty. You know what I mean? Think back to the example, if you don't mind me reading this passage real quick, KJ.

How did the Apostle Paul utilize his Christian liberty? Did he flaunt it and abuse it and cause, you know, other legalistic weaker brothers to stumble? Absolutely not. This is what he said in 1 Corinthians 9, 22, and 23.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. Now, through the means of preaching the gospel. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

So, this is what I would want Christians to consider. The Apostle Paul used his Christian liberty to win the lost world. He met them where they were at, and so we have liberty to engage in some of these contexts, and I'm saying it's not to abuse them, but it was as a means to win other people.

So, here's kind of an extreme example. You know, I grew up in a legalistic Baptist home where tattoos were pretty much condemned. Well, that's legalism. There's nothing in the New Testament for Christians that says that we thou shall not have a tattoo, and you can't go to Leviticus 28, 19, and say that's, you know, that's learning from the Old Testament, so you shouldn't get a tattoo.

Well, that's tethered to the whole Levitical system of Israel being sanctified from the pagan nations, so you can't cherry pick one there without taking the whole Levitical law, but my point is, what would it say if you live in a culture where you're going to have more opportunities to talk with people if you have a tattoo?

I'm over here saying, well, the Apostle Paul would have gotten a tattoo so he could win some. He met them where they were at, and another example is, you know, we realize that circumcision is no way a necessity in order to receive the gospel by faith, yet the Apostle Paul circumcised Timothy to help in their evangelism, and I'm like, what is the Apostle Paul doing?

He's using his Christian liberty to meet all people where they are at, and so that's why this is an issue of the conscience, and we try our best to whatever.

We do to give God glory and not cause our brothers to stumble. Now, I want to kind of, I guess, I guess, get this thought, I guess, explain it a little bit better for, like, somebody who kind of, I guess, don't grasp it in this sense.

Post Malone, overall, we kind of have an idea, a general idea of what kind of music he kind of produces in a sense. It's not going to be songs that's going to gratify you, glorify the Lord, but if Post Malone had a song, for example, that was neutral, would you find yourself listening to it, or you don't think you could?

You know, that's, so this is,.

This is good because maybe my conscience would hinder me from listening to Post Malone at all because of all the other stuff I've been exposed to, but I will say, I think it's possible for secular worldly people to produce morally neutral songs that could be to the glory of God or not, so that gets to the very heart of what we're talking about.