Voddie Baucham and "Ethnic Gnosticism" on the Dividing Line

The Elephant Room, Trinity, and the Race Question

Okay, so there you have there you have. Well what took place. You have the elephant room to you have. The discussion concerning the Trinity and manifestations and and all those things like that and. Look everyone listened.

If you're listening right now you listened. To what I said back on Friday, and what did I do? I played stuff from what TD Jake's and said in the past and and we looked at Oneness sources, and we did all that stuff and.

I.

Thought what I was doing was discussing the important issue of the doctrine of the Trinity and over the weekend. I began to realize that to be honest with you a Lot of people didn't hear me talking about the Trinity.

And all of a sudden I started realizing you know what? There are a lot of folks that aren't hearing what I said about the doctrine of Trinity because to be honest with you they Don't really think that I have the right to be addressing this subject because of.

Who.

TD Jake's is and I was very very concerned as I began to realize that the issue of race Was taking a central Place in this conversation. And I don't understand it and so I reached out to someone who might be able to help us.

And he's joining me on the program today. I am talking to dr. Vodie Balcom. Hello, sir. How are you? It's good to be with you, too most folks in the audience know you better than they know me, but One thing that they need to know is that you're the pastor of preaching a grace family Baptist Church in Spring, Texas now Texas is a nation unto itself.

So spring would be approximately where in that big place. Okay, you're a Houston suburb, okay. All right. Well, I was in Houston not very long ago. But knowing how much you travel and I travel we probably weren't there at the same time anyways.

But that means it's real nice and dry there during the summer, right? Yeah, that's true. You didn't he had the humidity. He just didn't get the just didn't get the rain. Who's supposed to come along with it.

How long have you been pastoring down there. And you've also served as an adjunct professor at the College of Biblical Studies in Houston.

Union University in Jackson lectured at Southern Seminary and you know a little something about this situation because Rumor is and we haven't had the opportunity of actually meeting yet Unfortunately, but the rumor is I've heard that you're actually a black man.

Am I right about that? Also heard that you are a little bit larger than I am. Is that is that true? Are you how? In fact, Todd Friel said he mentioned you. I was listening to a wretched radio Broadcast from a couple days ago, and he said you could break him in half like a twig.

Well, that's true. A stiff breeze could do that I suppose but I think what he meant was that you're even bigger than he is. Okay so when you do apologetics then You you have an advantage that I know I no longer have.

I was once a pretty big guy back in About six seven years ago, but I've I've gotten back on the bike. And so now I'm not that at all. So but you do apologetics. I do apologetics I think we're about the only two Reformed Baptist apologists on the planet.

So we pretty much fill out the entire club and we still haven't met. So I was thinking Spring, Texas sounds like a great place to have a debate someday with a Muslim. What do you think? Thank you. Yeah, I was gonna say I think you can find a church for me there.

Really.

That could be very very interesting. Yeah, especially since the the Muslims are going for Friday. They're going for Saturday. We go for Sunday. At least we know which days we can X out of the out of the calendar there.

Well, anyways, I got I got in touch with you. Because I am honestly Confused and first of all, obviously you know far more about this situation than you probably wanted to know. I read your blog article where you related the situation because you actually.

How many people grand total had been invited to the the elephant room, too? I mean We know of at least two. Are you and Mark Devere the only two that declined? Do we know of any others? What do you know about that?

Okay, and. So you declined an invitation to be there and yet there was something. Was it the next day or two days after elephant room that you were supposed to speak at? And so in fact you had been booked even before the elephant room stuff even became an issue, right?

Okay, all right, and that was just a I Don't know. I hate to use the term standard men's conference, but I guess that's a term. I'll use just it wasn't necessarily related to Elephant room, right? I like that.

Okay. All right. Now we know that you flew from Texas. I would assume Houston up to Chicago. And it was decided in conversations that it would be best that you did not speak. Because well because of why because of what you had said on your blog.

And no, I'm not forward. I don't remember if I said at that point that I had been invited or not, but basically I just said I was in opposition to it, but I was still going because I had a previous engagement and I was going to keep that engagement.

They were committed to me still coming anyway, even though I was not in favor of it. And that's what happened.

Right, right.

And so you.

So you got there, I guess I guess you had an assistant with you. You actually. When you went to the church, were you assuming you were going to be speaking? Okay. Okay. So you had your you had everything prepared and it was only once you got to the church the discussion took place and You discovered that there was already somebody there to take your place I guess at that point.

Yeah, right, right. All right. Okay, so you you had that level. So you spoke with James McDonald there and you had that level of.

Of involvement, but my contacting. You really didn't have to do with that too much. Let's get to let's get to the important issue here. And what really is troubling troubling me. And that is.

Defending the Doctrine of the Trinity over the Elephant Room Debate

When I.

As soon as this happened Todd Friel was on my cell phone and I mean from Todd's perspective this was The reversal of the Council of Nicaea, okay, I mean it was just I Mean, you know the real maestro. I love the guy and he I mean he just he he operates if we're all 12-volt batteries.

He's a 24-volt battery. It was just it's just the way it is. He just on an iPod he's on the to the 2x speed all the time and You know and I I I had not been looking forward to this. I knew it was coming I had sort of kept some an eye of an eye on it because I've spoken about Jake's and stuff like that in the past.

But but I'm trying to write a book on Islam and I've got too many other things going on. And so I you know, I didn't spend much time on it. And so when it took place And I listened to the conversation My honestly Bodhi I can tell you with with complete integrity the only thing I was listening for was accuracy in handling The issue of the doctrine of Trinity and a recognition and understanding of modalistic language on the people asking TD Jake's questions that's that was honestly all I was concerned about and I Didn't even watch the videos because I took I pulled the the audio from what was posted on YouTube and I listened to that I wasn't even watching it.

I didn't I didn't know who was talking to him. I mean, I recognized Mark Driscoll's voice, but I didn't know if there's two people ten people I didn't know and I didn't care it just that's not that's not relevant to me.

What was relevant was the issues of accurately handling the doctrine of the Trinity? I'm sitting here trying to reach out to Muslims and It's somewhat of a distraction to have this going on in the rearview mirror Where you're discovering that a lot of people who you thought were on your side Actually don't even know what it is you're talking about when you're defending things like the hypostatic Union or The the eternal existence of the Sun as the Sun and all the rest of stuff okay, so it you know and so I do my thing on Friday you even Referenced the video when I posted it on a blog article that you wrote where I just I just went through it Did my thing and over the weekend I start realizing That there are people that have started to talk about Middle-aged white reformed guys.

Now I'm I think I'm still middle-aged just 49 is 49 still middle-aged. I think that's that does that qualify. You'll let you pass there, okay? Now who's who's who's the elder here by the way because I can't I don't know oh, okay?

Well, you're still young and then okay. Okay, well you're definitely middle-aged. I'm I think 55 is about the end of middle-aged personally, so I think You'll take that and as we get close to 55 we'll push the 60, so it's just out just how it works, but anyway I.

I.

Hadn't I.

Honestly.

Had it had never crossed my mind to think.

I.

Well, that's that's what you're gonna have to help me with because I don't understand the rules. I really I don't get it. I thought that Galatians 328 was pretty clear when it says there is neither June or Greek there is neither slave nor free.

There's no male or female. You're all one in Christ Jesus. I I thought it was pretty straightforward that what that was saying. Is that this whole issue of? Race, I mean let's if we looked at the Council of Nicaea.

There weren't any Middle-aged white reform guys there because first reform wouldn't have made any sense and most everybody there would have been a lot darker than me. That's for sure You know. And they really wouldn't have looked like much like either one of us even though Athanasius was.

They called him the little black dwarf, so. You know I mean these issues are not defined by race so. But they're being heard in that way. Help me to understand.

How.

How do I get past this or what is the real problem here. Should these types of divisions even exist within the Christian faith?

Black Church Culture, Assimilation, and Ethnic Gnosticism

Theology Independently in that context because black church culture and that is there's only guys who were go back to Africa and Others who wanted assimilation to your lesser degrees, so you got these three layers that are always happening.

Okay, that's kind of it now. Bring that into the day and when you're doing a conference like this. You've got all three of those layers. So you've got to look at the fact that when TJ who was a national figure is coming into this world the culture at large Who knows him when he goes on the cover of Time magazine?

The culture at large who knows him is going to see a divide that's recognized in the United States of America. Brothers who are aware of that and sensitive to it going to respond to him accordingly. There's also that second layer that you see of you know sort of black church white church, but again I'm using these terms because they're out there and in fact it's not because I think that and then with the most recent video I'd be on the aboilee group an incredible piece about This a couple of days before that video came out and was just rather prescient in its plea to our white brothers not to play black brothers against one another on this same issue that's been going some being more or Assimilation if you will others being more for separatism and trying to sort of Create divide you know on which black guys are on which side of the issue, so that's kind of a quick overview.

The reason that this was going to be an issue.

Okay, let me Let let me tell you a story and then As a background of asking you to tell me from from your perspective What I need to do or how I need to try to understand The the the perspective that was expressed by some of the black pastors in response to the TD Jake situation and and why and maybe tell me I.

See I don't the very idea of black theology or white theology or any epithet attached to theology gives me the creeps I mean just badly because there is no such thing as a black God or a white God or anything like that and I and In the reason it gives me a creeps.

Let me let me tell you story and then I'll get your responses that I.

I.

He said the same thing he said he was oblivious he lives in an oblivious state to a lot of the Layers that you were just talking about. And it's not because I live in the quote-unquote white church because I don't.

I mean my church has Hispanics and blacks and whites and and. Most of us are just mutts. We don't know what in the world we are and and you know, and we don't care. It's it's that's not why we're there.

So it's not something we even think about. It doesn't enter in. And for me, especially.

My.

The first best friend you have in life really impacts you. And my first best friend the first friend that I the person that I in my little mind at that time defined friendship was named Kevin and Kevin was brown and Kevin was brown because Kevin's mommy Was almost albino.

I mean she was mrs. Holden was in it. She was so white well, we lived in Minnesota and I'm afraid that there's a lot of very really white people in Minnesota because you can't get out in the Sun very much and if You do go out during the summer you get eaten by mosquitoes.

So it may have just been you stay inside all the time. I don't know but she was as white as could be but Kevin's daddy Kevin's daddy Scared me not because of what color he was but he was huge. I mean to a three or four year old this man was huge.

He was a big cop and he was as black as midnight. I mean he was one of those guys who's so black that if in the dark unless he smiles you ain't gonna see him. He is that kind we're not talking brown. We're talking absolutely black.

He was the the polar opposite of his wife and so my first best friend is brown and His mommy and his daddy are different colors, and I think that's just wonderful. And in fact, I still remember learning from my parents that well There's a lot of people who don't think that they should be married.

I'm like, but why because they were members of our church. So I'm like, I mean, I'm a kid. I don't know and So my first experience with friendship was with a boy who had a black father and a white mother and I'm just like yeah, but he's my friend.

And so from the very start my brain has been wired in such a way. That all this stuff about yeah, but I'm this color and He's that color and we're this it does not commute Compute with me and it just doesn't become a part of the process by which I even think about things and that's why.

When I listened to the elephant room, and that's why when I first read read Brian Lawrence's blog up blog article I didn't it never crossed my mind to even ask the question. What color is this man? That's why I was so shocked when the issue of race came up.

I was like, why would somebody raise that? It just it is just that far removed from my experience my thought process because of my of my upbringing. That's just the way it was and so with that I'm not sure Bodhi if I'm smart enough to develop a set of filters to avoid You know to start running stuff through a filter to know how to address stuff.

Is it.

I.

Don't I don't think you have to apologize for what you were doing what you've been doing at all. You weren't wrong and what you were doing. What you were doing is necessary. And for me, this is not an issue.

That you don't change like knew about this.

So.

How has that happened as you see it.

Right.

And one of them even pointed to the fact that he referenced that really helped him Understand Jake's better when those of us who have dealt with Apologetics perspective. Yeah, not that was not some other sit in that room and go.

Wow. Yeah I thought about that. It should have been something to make brothers who were sitting in that room go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, you know, yeah just went back to it. And so it's. It's so ironic that we, you know move away from and by the way, one of the other problems is that.

Let's say he's confused. Let's say, you know as brilliant as he is all the things that he's been able to write all the you know. As advanced as he's been able to become in all of these areas of his life by the way.

This is another thing that's ironic. It is that one of the most racist things that you can do is actually say that black people get a pass on Theology and they get a pass on. You know things like I don't know Titus 1 9 and the duties and responsibilities of the pastor as it relates to his doctrine of theology.

Simply because they're black. That is that is the height of disrespect saying that he that he's been. He's trinitarian, he's moved away from modalism, he's orthodox in his view of the Trinity. He just, you know, he just doesn't really know how to express it well.

That brings up two questions. If that's the case and you respect him and care that in private, help him, and decide when, what about the word of faith, prosperity, gospel, which is poor.

So now what I'm hearing from you right now Interestingly enough is The issue, see the first place that I saw race brought up was in the Loritz blog when it talked about white middle-aged reformed guys and I'm hearing you saying you're seeing it in its fullest expression in in essence the the misuse of three black pastors as a mechanism of defense for what took place and Yet, it's interesting a lot of folks in listening to that Have heard statements that sounded like some of those pastors.

I think specifically Brian Loritz What we're basically saying well, I think there are some Black pastors out there that want to have a wider audience and so they're sort of ganging up on Bishop Jakes, so it's it's it sounds like there's multiple different streams Coming all together and creating a massive amount of Confusion depending on how we're listening and how we understand what the motivations were behind the person speaking.

Yeah, you're probably right he's there's there's no two ways about it. Even though I I would I would like to think That on the positive level people have been caused to think about modalism a little bit.

It is discouraging to recognize that Those who actually know modalism best have the the quietest voices in this Situation and those the loudest voices in other words the biggest platforms did not show themselves to be overly insightful as To not only what modalism is and how modalists speak but making direct application to the Christian life the gospel the reasons the importance of why modalism totally undercuts The sacrificial work of Christ and the worship of the church and all the rest of these things.

There just doesn't seem to have been to be almost anybody who has a really big platform That has brought that kind of thing to the fore. Now you had mentioned specifically though a lot of people have mentioned me let's put it this way a lot of people mentioned to me that they interpreted some of the things that were said in the interview, especially the first part of the interview as Being directed at pretty well-known individuals.

That's not really the case is it? Right, right, of course.

The Influence of TD Jakes, Modalism, and the Gospel

Influences.

Now you've been speaking about this for a long time help help our listeners to understand. Why would you say something like that? Because so many people Look at him and they see success they see he's been on the cover of Time magazine for crying out loud I'm is time still being published.

It might be I don't know really knows anymore, but you know, here's here's the very picture of Success and and and prominence and and all the rest of stuff and yet here you're you're talking about a Poisonous influence.

Why would that be?

Hmm and yet that that was not raised.

There really wasn't much of an explanation as to why? But still even even with that looking at the interview that James McDonald did afterwards. None of these pastors would be pastoring churches that would be friendly toward that type of perspective.

Would they. Yeah, right. Yeah, you can pay for that and in many many different ways. Help me to understand if you can and if and if. If it's just beyond where we want to go, just just let me know but help me understand if you can.

Why we have seen. Some from the black community. Listen to what Phil Johnson is saying, okay. Phil Johnson is a white middle-aged reformed guy and James White. And People like us and. They hear us and yet they hear us in a racial sense.

When it's not anywhere in anything that we said, I mean you couldn't find anything. And what I said last Friday About elephant room to that could by any stretch of the imagination Be connected to anything Racial at all.

It never once crossed my mind and yet people are hearing it. What what do we do about it? What how what can I do about that if there's anything at all?

Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Well, it not it does violence of the gospel here. We're talking about the very nature of God. And again It's not something that each ethnic group gets to define though. I I have to disagree with you about one thing.

You said you can understand my experience, but I can guarantee you. You've never worn a kilt. So so. You have oh Man, I knew I had a feeling I had a feeling. Yeah, but you did but you didn't get it in Scotland.

So.

A.

Black culture, right?

Hmm.

A guy in Tennessee in you know, black community. Black church. Brooklyn, you know, right. So there's no such thing as a black experience.

Experience.

Right, so our goal ought to be to get to a Christianity. That ought to be our goal. Unfortunately, you know this whole ethnic Gnosticism puts people in knots and unless there are Black people who are speaking to this issue because of the inroads that this ethnic Gnosticism has made There are people who will be afraid.

And.

Okay, if I honestly am colorblind in the church If if I'm if that's where I am, I am convinced. I'm convicted by the Word of God and convicted by Galatians 328. That's the way it needs to be. We're all one the body of Christ.

The same Holy Spirit and dwells you that involves me we read the same scriptures. If if that's where I really am then What how can I talk to someone because you've used this term a couple times and it again is so far outside of my Experience, but you talk about those who who aren't really for assimilation or something.

It's almost like let's stay in our own group and I go but our group is the church. It's not it's not based upon the color. It's not based upon the melanin counts. I mean really the The guy who died for you and I both wasn't the color of either one of us.

He was he was a Palestinian Jew. So what am I supposed to say? to someone who looks at me and they they say you shouldn't say anything about TD Jake's because You're Scottish and you don't you don't therefore you are Showing yourself Racist if you engage in this, huh?

Isn't that is that not sin in the sense of a an improper division of the body, right? Right, but I but I mean, I'm sure you'd agree with me. I also don't think I mean a church in a prime in an area that has a primary one particular primary Ethnic makeup is going to lean toward that for obvious reasons.

But but my concern is specifically creating a church based upon ethnicity. I mean that's a you know If the Lord if the Lord brings in people from all over the place and gives you just complete mixed soup, that's great.

But you know I understand that a church in a certain area is going to reflect the Ethnicity of the people that are close enough to get to it that that makes perfect sense. But what I'm hearing is people saying no, we we don't mind creating an ethnic.

Group.

Whereby we sort of see ourselves. It's it reminds me of Galatians 2 and it reminds me of you know Peter going over and sitting with the Jews at the table and well. You know. It's just the way we do these things and and Paul said no way you're not walking straight in accordance the truth of the gospel.

I'll find another way around.

So what do what do I do you put yourself in in in my in my shoes. You've already said look you've got to do what you're doing. You've got to address the issue, but. Do I have to I need to be aware of how my words are going to be heard?

I there are only so many filters I can install though. And so. Isn't isn't there a need to call anyone who is a fellow conservative Christian who happens to be black. Isn't there a need to be able to say to someone like that?

You know what?

We are all one in the body of Christ this has nothing to do with my experience or your experience this has to do with our common confession of faith in who Jesus is what the doctrine of the Trinity is how all this relates to the gospel and.

Can we set all of that stuff aside? Do I have to make that special effort each time or or? Do I only do that once I start getting a pushback and realize that I'm encountering it. Do I just assume the best or do I assume the worst?

Which one which do I do? We're talking about somebody that the Muslims think is a cult. I mean you can't get more cultic than that. Filters the filters.

And the idea that you know, the relationship has to be in a certain place before you can call that out. That's just that's just not Bible. Yeah, it's not loving the brother. If you love someone you have to confront them in their sin.

You have to confront them in their error.

We've got about a minute left on the program today, what can what can we do. I mean.

Is.

As far as I can tell Vast majority of pulpits are wide open to you. I mean, you're you're you're much beloved and it doesn't have anything to do with your ethnicity or anything like that. And so clearly people have seen you hand in hand with well-known Especially reformed leaders and things like that.

It is it continued cooperation that makes the inroads? How can we chip away at this this ethnic Gnosticism in 35 seconds? Yeah.