Mark Driscoll on Cessationists

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StreamYard, which is a tool we use as I'm hitting go live, is going, hey, we are having high

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Give it 30 to 60 seconds and try again.

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So Drew was like, I'll put a message in really quickly to let folks know we're trying to go live.

We're here. We're trying.

Well, so it wasn't just that, you know, it's been three weeks for me and I just

didn't know what I was doing.

Although that's probably a good guess anyway.

But welcome, Apologetics Live.

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Ask me your most difficult question.

And I go, I don't know, because I don't know is actually a really good answer, a perfectly fine one.

So let me put some things up that I see here in the

notes.

Now, tonight we're going to talk about Mark Driscoll and some comments he made about cessationists.

But I do see Fatima

Lasse, if I mispronounced it, forgive me, says, Hey, Andrew, I don't know Mark's view on cessationism.

I guess we'll find out.

I do have a nagging question.

How does 1 Thessalonians 5, 19 -22 fit in with a

cessationist worldview?

Now, before I get to that, let me put up what he said after, he

or she, I should say.

I was at the Baha 'u'llah conference, really helped me much, but one of my friends

brought up this problem of talks quenching the spirit.

So I'm asking here, so God bless you.

So this is, we're referring to the Baha 'u'llah conference, and I'll put his other

question or her other question, don't know, guy or girl, sorry about that, up here so that we could take a

look at it.

But the Baha 'u'llah conference refers to the Philippines, where I just was that we did a conference in two

different places in Manila and then in Baha 'u'llah.

And so this person attended the Baha 'u'llah conference.

And so I am immensely grateful that, A, that the conference was helpful to you, and

B, that you took up my challenge, which I made was, if anyone has questions, for them, it's Friday

morning.

I was just on a podcast at 7 a .m. my time for a 7 p .m.

Thursday night podcast that's in the Philippines.

So there's a time difference there, but it's nice and easy for me.

It's just 12 hours.

So it's only a .m. and p .m.

Yeah.

Well, I just changed a .m. and p .m.

When I was there, it was nice so I could tell my wife, what time is it?

Same time as just change a .m. and p .m.

Let me back up in reading this.

The question is with 1 Thessalonians 5, 19 to 22.

Rule number 1, when it comes to any kind of question when you have a verse of the Bible, we back up and read some

verses before we get the context.

So I'm going to back up to verse 12.

And just so we read it, it's pretty short, but let's see what it says.

But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor

among you and have charge over you in the Lord to give you instruction.

And that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work.

Live in peace with one another.

We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient

with everyone.

See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seeks after that which is

good for one another and for all people.

Rejoice always.

Pray without ceasing.

In everything give thanks, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

Now verse 19.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Do not despise prophetic utterances.

And examine everything carefully.

Hold fast to that which is good.

Abstain from that which is evil.

And so there we have the context.

So the context gives us that he's speaking about basically how to

conduct oneself within the church, that we should be supporting financially

those that minister to us, our pastors, that just the conduct and

character we should have.

So the first thing that comes up is the do not quench the Spirit.

Now in the charismatic movement we hear this very often, that if you criticize the

charismatics that you're quenching the Spirit.

The word for quench means to put out, to exhaust.

It's not used very often, but it's used

in Mark.

It says referring to hell where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched.

We see that in Mark three times.

It's the idea of quenched.

So it's the idea of putting something out.

So we shouldn't be dampening the Spirit.

Well, does that speak to just the charismatic gifts?

Now we're going to get to verse 20 which says, do not despise prophetic utterances,

but we have to recognize that some view that utterances can be gifts.

And so the thing here we want to recognize is, first off,

what does it mean to quench the Spirit?

Well, it means to basically not listen to the prompting of the Spirit.

And that has nothing to do with tongues or the charismatic movement.

It has to do as a general thing, just like giving thanks is a general thing.

You don't give thanks only in charismatic gifts.

So quenching the Spirit does not have to do directly with charismatic gifts.

Now the way many interpret it is they tie this to verse 20, which it is the very next thing.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Do not despise prophetic utterances, or some would say prophetic gifts.

Now we could agree with that, but prophecy is a word that has...

There's two different meanings for the idea of prophecy.

There's foretelling and foretelling.

So one is looking back at what's already been written and examining the scriptures and

exegeting, expounding, what we call preaching, that which has already been declared.

And then there's that which is foretelling, giving new revelation.

And so we have to examine which is this.

And when we look at the time period, well, obviously new revelation is continuing,

right?

Because we have Paul writing the book of Thessalonians, and we know that John is going to write

Revelation after this.

So we know that there's still new revelation.

And whether you want to say that this is new revelation, or whether

this is dealing with already known revelation, whichever one,

both could fit perfectly fine for Paul saying this to them in that day and

age when there was continuing revelation.

The question is, if this is the gift of prophecy the way they claim, which is God

speaking directly to people today, that is new revelation.

And if that's the case, we should be writing it down.

And they want to say that this is new revelation, but it's separate from what we

see in the Bible of prophecy.

And right there, this becomes a little way of knowing.

Anybody who says that the gifts continue, but they

are different than that which is in the Bible, then guess what?

You know that the gifts didn't continue.

Because if they changed, it's not the same gift.

So if the gift of prophecy is different than

what's being done today, is different than what's been done in the Bible, it's not the same thing being discussed here.

So Paul is saying that we shouldn't despise people when

they have prophetic utterances.

What specifically is he referring to?

Could it be scripture?

Could it be someone preaching the Bible?

It could be either one.

And I have no problem with either one.

The question here is, is that applied to what people do today and call it prophetic

utterances?

No, because they're not having prophetic utterances.

They're having a feeling that they want to credit it to God.

Yeah, so when I look at this text, first, it's good you backed up to 12, right?

Because 19 through 22, you have not changed context from verse 12.

It still falls into that same context.

And so when we get to verse 19, he's basically making a statement

or a declaration.

Do not quench the spirit.

But if you pay attention to the punctuation, what follows is then a list, right?

Do not despise prophetic utterances.

Now, I would say these prophetic utterances are things that have been written that we would look at in scripture because what follows

that is examine everything carefully.

What do we examine things by?

Well, we examine them by scripture.

Hold fast to that which is good and abstain from evil.

And as a Christian, how do we know what is good and evil?

Well, we have an objective standard that we refer back to that clearly lays out for us what God

delights in, what he calls good, and what he abhors, that which is evil.

Yeah.

And so I don't know that this is something that a charismatic can use

to justify us not criticizing the charismatic movement today.

They try really hard.

They do, but, you know, look, if the prophetic

utterances here is referring to preaching the Bible, I can

say that I support that, but that's clearly not how they're using it, right?

Right.

When the charismatics are using it, they're specifically referring to God giving direct

revelation to an individual.

Right.

And so the question is, in the time that Paul's writing this, was that continuing to happen?

Yes.

Is that continuing to happen today?

No.

And that's the difference right there.

Yeah, because you are right.

At the time that this is written, prophetic utterances were still happening in the form of

foretelling.

And so it could be.

But then what is that foretelling going to be based in?

Right?

It's going to be based in the truth of God.

Yes.

So it's not going to be based in some kind of nonsensical gibberish that promotes self rather

than corrects someone in their wrongdoing.

And let me just give this a good practical thing to remember when we interpret the scriptures.

And maybe some of you picked up what I did, but I'm looking at the passage and I'm trying to be as fair as I can with it.

And I'm even saying like, even if we don't do the work to say, okay, which is this?

Is this the foretelling or foretelling?

I'm saying it could be either.

Okay?

Even the broadest thing.

But notice what I'm doing.

I'm taking into the historical context.

When was this written?

Even if this is, as the Charismatics say, the direct revelation.

I can accept that.

Sure.

And I can accept Paul saying that.

The question is, is that direct revelation occurring today?

We would say no.

And therefore, if that's what this was referring to, this does not apply today.

Now, this is why I would tend toward leaning just in the context.

I think it probably has to do with preaching.

Okay?

The foretelling what's already been told.

And so, that's where I'm going to lean on it.

But if the Charismatic wants to say, well, this is, you know, the foretelling of the future, I can say okay to that

still.

This passage still does not defend what they're trying to say.

That I can't criticize them.

And I can't, you know, that that's quenching the spirit.

And, you know,.

I have to be not despising their prophetic utterances.

I'm not despising their prophetic utterances because they're not having prophetic utterances the way they're saying.

Right.

And, you know, the proof of it is the fact of how many of these people who have prophetic utterances

and get things wrong.

Are you saying God got it wrong?

They go, oh no, it was just our interpretation.

So they believe God could speak.

And though in scripture Peter can say that they recognized immediately what Paul wrote was

scripture.

That's one of the things that's required when we look at the books of what became known as the canon.

Was that at the time these writings were immediately recognized as scripture.

So it was known to be God's word.

And this again is a difference between the prophecy of the Old and New Testament and the prophecy they claim today.

In the Bible that prophecy was clear.

It was known to be from God.

Where what you have in people today is they say that they get this revelation but then it goes

through the human interpretation and if it's wrong it's because the human interpreted it wrong.

Find a prophet in scripture.

That did it wrong.

Find a prophet in scripture that did that.

They try.

They have God speaking to Samuel.

And Samuel.

Doesn't know it's God.

And then once he's told that's God go talk to him.

Is there any more confusion?

Nope.

He knows exactly who's speaking.

So that's the reality is when God gave his message it was really clear that it was God.

He wanted to do something with this young boy to get

Samuel to know who it was.

That was.

Speaking.

But then there's Jeremiah and I forget the passage where they try to say that Jeremiah.

Misinterpreted and.

I won't be able to speak to it until I go and look at it.

They also try to say Agabus in the New Testament as well.

Yeah and the issue there is Agabus is one that

Agabus is stating something.

You do not know that he's giving a prophecy.

He's stating something.

So in Acts Acts is a historical narrative.

How do we interpret that?

We see that's accurately recording what did happen not necessarily what

should happen.

Okay?

And so that's something to be aware of.

So.

I hope we sufficiently answered that and I should let folks know.

I know many people are used to seeing the show on.

I should have mentioned this at the beginning in different Facebook groups.

StreamYard's made some sort of change where they removed all the groups and we can't put them into the groups.

So.

I will try to post this afterwards in those groups but if you're listening to the podcast

and you're used to seeing it live.

Or you.

Are you seeing it in certain Facebook groups.

The best thing to do is go to ApologeticsLive .com to watch this if you want to watch it live.

The YouTube is.

Up on there.

We put it on that site so you can always click over to the YouTube or you can watch it from ApologeticsLive .com.

So yeah our numbers.

Are down a bit because of that because that's where the majority of folks were watching.

It was really odd because before you left the first show that we set up all the groups were there

and then when I came back the next week to set up for the show it's like half of them were gone and I was like I know there were

more in there.

And I was like because you were setting that up right?

And I was like did I set it up wrong?

And I went no actually I can't do it either.

And even when I set this one up.

Same thing.

Yeah because you texted me and you were like.

What's with all the missing groups?

Why are they not in there?

Yeah and then I tried to do it and I'm like yeah they're missing because I guess it's streaming so it's something I'll have to look into for next

week and try to see if we could we can get that.

So let's see.

Jesse is saying examine everything carefully.

Suggest that prophecy is not necessarily scripture itself but something that is uttered

that is measured with scripture isn't it?

Yeah and so Jesse this is why I say that I think this is preaching.

I think it's what we do on Sunday and therefore he's saying don't despise

someone that's doing preaching.

And Jesse's.

Exactly right.

What are we compared to?

We compare it to.

Scripture.

So Oh.

So Melissa is saying last time you said you were going to talk about the mental illness comments about

John MacArthur said which when I heard the whole thing was taken out of context.

Are you still going to cover that?

Did you guys.

I'm trying to remember.

Did you cover that?

We mentioned.

It we talked about some things a little bit we didn't go fully in depth but we did talk about some things and I think

you even came on on one of the one where you were showing us where you were and stuff like that.

I think you even mentioned it that John MacArthur all he did he's not saying those things don't exist he's

just giving the biblical name to them.

Correct.

Yeah and that is something folks who watch our YouTube channel you might have seen.

Monday night I started.

I'm working with Passing the Torch.

It's a group where getting us.

I hate that the thought of this Drew but the older.

Apologists.

Apologists to train up the younger guys and so it is a class a

week class I'm doing on apologetics and debate and so I use that in the opening.

And I said it was to trigger people.

I get it but it was because of the emotion that people had with that.

And so the issue I saw with what John actually said was he didn't.

He says PSTD doesn't exist.

Then he goes right on to say to talk about guilt.

So he recognizes that there is guilt that occur and other other emotional things.

Yeah so the experience.

Is relevant.

Yeah all of those things are based off of right guilt we'll say guilt the things you have to do when

you're in military situations like that but then also things that you've seen right.

Think about being some of those some of those soldiers in Iraq who saw

some of the worst most evil despicable things that they weren't a part of but they saw it right.

Things with children things with women right.

And it affects them when they come back home.

Yeah.

Now someone is saying that KT is saying John actually talked about it

on Sunday.

After.

That before his preaching so I haven't heard that so.

Okay.

Let's see Fatima.

Is saying thanks Andrew.

I was hoping for a simple answer made me think it made me think

it would really help to have a talk on discernment and how to test

the spirits alongside the usual strange fire program.

Cheers.

Yeah discernment is a good thing to be to have discussion.

On.

And I'm going to put this up since we talked about the MacArthur thing.

And this is the the AW Pink Panther.

I know he and I have been discussing privately in a lot of detail.

We have differing views about the MacArthur thing.

He said.

I've got the sermon MacArthur gave after the panel discussion.

And he literally says there.

Quote there is no psychological aspect to ADHD.

Unquote.

He literally denies the reality of the of the deficient electrical wiring.

And I don't know I don't know what he's listening to.

So I'm not.

I can't speak directly to that.

I just know the one clip I listened to.

He didn't deny the actual experiences.

He he's denying the labels.

However the the issue.

And this is I brought up with AW Pink Panther privately.

There is a study that we do in genetic called epigenetics.

What epigenetics shows.

Let me give an example outside of this.

You have someone who is who's drinking or taking drugs or something like that.

Then they go do studies.

And they go oh look we see or let's do a different one actually one that the studies have

done.

There's studies that were showed that certain people that practice homosexuality do have a

certain trait in their genes.

Okay what epigenetics.

Shows however is that this is a cart before the horse.

It shows that behavior that people do will affect their

their genes.

It can actually have a change.

And so what is it that is it that you you practice homosexuality because you

have this gene.

Or do you have this gene because you practice homosexuality.

Okay that's a pretty new study that they're seeing and it's very interesting.

But what that goes to show is that all of these studies that they say well look we have this gene we have this thing.

We can't trust those things.

In fact they just recently came out and said all the drugs they give for depression had absolutely no effect

actually a harming effect.

All these mood altering drugs because it was all based on someone's claim that that

didn't have the scientific backing.

But because it was accepted science no one wanted to question that.

And it took someone giving evidence where they suddenly said okay we gotta

rethink this but they're still giving the drugs.

If you just think about in terms of depression and people who get on antidepressants how many of those people

still committed suicide.

So I mean.

And then what comes out later that you know they were on these antidepressant drugs.

Well then those antidepressant drugs don't help.

Yeah one of the things I do find interesting they always talk about the gun violence and they always want to say it's the gun that did it and

one thing that is almost always involved is someone that has

done this was on mood altering drugs for many years and either just got themselves off it

or tried to wean themselves off it or they're still on them but that is a constant with

almost all of them.

I say almost because some of them were.

You know when there was a Muslim that shot up a gay bar that was of course blamed on Christians

right.

Not the Muslim.

We can't blame the Muslim but that's one case where I don't think there was any of that.

So.

And I know that this is an issue.

There's a lot of discussion in the chat and we're gonna we're gonna leave that there so we can get to our

main thing.

And there's a couple more things that I saw that folks are you know have questions.

I'm gonna get.

We'll get those toward the end.

I will go to Jesse's comment just to finish this up because it's in line.

He says.

Deuteronomy 13 states that even if someone comes true from a prophet

we're not to listen to him if held if he

is led to them by false gods.

So with the prophets there's two things.

So what he's pointing out is that if someone comes from a false god you shouldn't be listening to him.

But it's also if someone says they have a prophecy.

The Bible gives us a way of knowing if it's a prophecy it's 100 %.

Accurate.

The prophecies done today I mean all these prophets.

They all said Trump would win his re -election last time.

Every one of them so right there that is proof that they are false prophets.

People will say oh no no no they just interpreted the prophecy wrong.

I don't know how you interpret misinterpret and the Lord appeared to me and he

said and I heard it as clear as day Trump is going to win

or four more years or you know whatever it was that they were saying they were

explicitly saying thus says the Lord.

Yeah.

And so you know the thing is they're saying they got direct

revelation from God.

Right.

And so that direct revelation was wrong.

I mean there's no other way around that they want to say.

Oh well we interpreted it wrong.

Then you're a false prophet because you interpreted the prophecy wrong you gave that

prophecy said this is what God said and we're wrong that's the prophecy.

Yeah here's a KT just said.

Okay guys it was May 5th.

Title.

Christ is sufficient for all your crisis.

John McArthur.

So give everyone a minute to write that down.

Christ is sufficient for all your crisis.

Sermon he gave on May 5th.

There you go so that'd be good for folks to go and check that out.

So let us engage with someone that you really.

Love your.

Favorite.

Oh am I wrong.

If folks if you haven't gone go back and listen.

I think it was last episode.

And.

I unfortunately couldn't be on there.

Two before that.

Last episode was hermeneutics two before that you titled it Mark Driscoll being.

Mark Driscoll.

Which I thought was very funny and I think you guys did an excellent job.

I should thank you and Chris Hough from being in a hospital bed

doing this show with you.

What's funny is because Chris and I we talk about hermeneutics a lot.

You know if you listen to matter of theology we're always dissecting scripture and so it's something we have

a passion about.

It's something you know my degree is in biblical exposition so in that I'm constantly

doing engaging in hermeneutics.

And so when I was talking to Chris about doing a show on hermeneutics he then ended up in

the hospital and I was like great I'm gonna do this one by myself but he was a trooper

he was like I'm not missing this one.

Yeah.

So let's see let me let me put this backstage for a moment because we see

someone that came in here.

So let me bring Isaac Miller into stage here.

Isaac how are you sir?

Not bad.

How about yourself?

Good good you got a question for us tonight?

Well so we could discuss what you believe a little bit.

I'm an atheist.

I don't really believe in a god.

Okay.

Which god do you believe in?

Well there's only one.

A lot of religions say that.

Which one do you view as the only true one though?

The same one that you do the god of the bible.

I don't recognize the god of the bible.

I talk to a lot of different religious people.

Muslims tell me all the time that there's only one god but they're referring to Allah not not

the Christian.

God.

Yeah well no.

I believe in the same god that you suppress.

I mean we both know god.

Exists.

I do not know that god exists.

I don't see a reason to believe in him.

And yet you do.

Believe you have an ability to reason right?

Yes but that doesn't come from a god.

Really?

So you believe that everything is just material right?

Yes.

Okay so where do you get an immaterial ability to reason?

Did we lose him?

Did he freeze?

I think something's wrong with his connection.

Okay.

All your reasoning faculties.

Everything is up here.

I seem to have glitched up pretty bad.

Is my audio still good?

Yep you got your back.

So you say it's all.

Product of the mind.

Yes.

How about the laws of logic?

There's nothing that makes me believe that those are anything outside of what's in your brain.

Okay.

So let's do a little experiment.

Isaac.

You and I both agree that there was a period before human brains correct?

I'm going to say there were six days or five days before humans were on earth.

You might say there was longer than that but we both agree there was a time before human brains existed right?

You're breaking up pretty bad.

I don't know if we'll be able to continue this or not.

Um.

I closed out the background tab so hopefully that helps.

Um so do you can we agree that there was a period that we both

believe there was a time before human brains existed

whether six days or millions.

Of years.

You're breaking up pretty bad here.

I might try to exit the studio and log back in.

All right

we'll hope that he can come back in.

So let me.

Just ask folks Drew I mean you and I have been pretty clear

I'm thinking it might be on his end.

Yeah I'm thinking it is too because he's glitching.

So Isaac maybe what you could do is shut your camera off.

And maybe.

That would help.

I'm seeing if that helps the audio.

Okay.

So I'll ask the question again.

Um.

Can we both agree that there was a time where there were there were

no human minds.

Can we agree to that.

Okay he's spinning so I don't know if he turned the camera off or he's.

He's out all right.

Before we go to the Mark Driscoll we'll give him a couple minutes.

Hopefully he'll come back in and we can answer the question.

But what I'm trying to do for folks to understand right.

I want to teach you guys how to do apologetics as well.

That's what we do here.

The reason I'm asking that question.

Is and.

I see that Andrew is saying it's breaking up pretty badly where he is down under

so I do know that when we started the show that StreamYard did say

that they are having some server issues so maybe.

Did you read all of Andrew's question or Andrew's.

Let's put it up.

Here is that code for.

Uh oh I gotta run.

Yeah.

Yeah well we'll see if Isaac doesn't come back in.

Okay.

Yeah you're right.

He's not saying that it's breaking up bad there down under.

He's saying the guy's saying uh oh.

I got into a conversation that we will see if he comes back in.

But the reason I'm asking the question of the human brain was the logic.

What we're going to see is it puts people who want to deny the immaterial things

like laws of logic and ability to reason.

They are going to say well that's a product of human mind as Isaac said.

Well now what I want to do is I want to go before there was a human mind.

We all are going to agree there was a time period before human beings were on earth.

I'm going to say it's five days he may say millions of years whatever.

That is fine that we agree that there was a time before a human mind.

So what I want to do is now see if he's going to stay consistent.

If the laws of logic are just a product of the human mind they shouldn't exist outside of a human mind.

But if they do exist from a mind and there is in a human mind

it would have to be a.

God.

And so if there's any immaterial things in the universe they require an immaterial

source.

And so that's what I would want to get to with them.

And the question that I then do is to say okay before there was a human mind I like to go.

This is just how I like to do it.

I will go to the second law of logic which is the law of non -contradiction.

The law of non -contradiction.

I'll give you the technical and then I'll explain it.

The technical is you can't have A and not A in the same way at the same time.

What does that mean.

Let me give the example.

I can't have $20 and not have $20 in my wallet being the same thing.

In other words I could have a monopoly money $20 and you're talking about US

dollars.

Well those aren't the same thing.

So that's not the same way or the same time.

I could say that I have $20 in my wallet but I don't anymore because I took it out and spent it

right.

So at the same time.

So could the universe.

The example I then give to would give to him is could the universe have existed and not

existed in the same time in the same way.

In other words before a human mind could you have the universe both

existing and not existing at the same time.

And existence meaning the same thing.

And that puts people into a dilemma because all of a sudden if they say no to that which is the

logically right answer.

To say.

They have to say no if they're going to stay logical.

Then they've.

Just admitted to the fact that there is an immaterial source for immaterial things in the universe.

It's not a product of the human mind and therefore God is required.

Now what you'll sometimes get is people that recognize that they got that they're in trouble with that.

And.

Now in his case maybe Andrew is right.

He said you're breaking up pretty bad.

I gotta go.

Maybe that was his answer.

Because he hasn't come back in.

But.

The thing is is that the other option I've heard people do is say yes you can actually have

contradictions and they will try to appeal to.

A.

Study of physics known as quantum physics quantum physics and I want to explain

this in case you guys use this.

I want you to be prepared in how to answer these things.

So if someone does bring this up in quantum physics you have this principle that says you can basically what it

looks like when you dig deeper into the cell into an atom you have these subatomic particles you have

these quartz and different things and it appears.

And that's I'm being really careful in words it appears that this subatomic particle

disappears in one spot and then suddenly appears in another spot.

And the principle they have is to say that you can.

Actually they use this to say that contradictions can exist within quantum physics.

I would say that those that it's the appearance of something moving from one spot and

another and being in two different places at the same time.

It's the appearance.

And I would say we don't have the technology yet to be able to know what's actually happening.

Just like we didn't know there were subatomic particles until we got microscopes that could discover that.

So.

Some are going to say that now here's how you can respond.

And I've done this before.

Let me give it is a fun little story but I was in California I was witnessing to these

six like high school college age students.

And this guy kept walking by and doing like.

And Drew I don't know if you've ever had this where someone does drive -by heckling.

You know they don't stop.

They just they throw something out and keep going.

The guy kept walking back and forth.

We were in like the outside mall and the guy like six times.

So finally I just stopped him and said hey how about you stop like doing the drive -by heckling.

And actually just make your argument.

And so he did.

He made an argument similar to what Isaac there was saying.

And I just said well you know so do you believe that you know before their

human brains the universe could have existed and not exist in the same way at the same time.

And he said yes.

And I said so you accept contradictions.

And he said yes.

I said you're wrong.

He said no I'm right.

I said no no you're wrong.

He said no I'm right.

I said no you're wrong.

And you can't disagree with me on it.

He's like why can't I disagree with you on it.

I said because you accept contradictions.

But if you think that you can't have contradictions and you must be right and I must be wrong.

Then you deny that contradictions exist.

And all of a sudden he just looked at me.

Just went completely white.

Looked at these other kids and just walked away.

And that's what you end up with.

Is that they're then stuck with.

That is if they want to say that the laws of logic ability to reason

morality.

Truth.

Knowledge all of these things are immaterial things.

Once you accept those as real you have to give them an immaterial source and that source is God.

Yeah so.

Uh tiktok is an interesting place because uh people will do lives.

Right.

They'll do tiktok lives.

And you can just kind of scroll through the lives.

And you'll have you will have people on there who read scripture.

You'll have people on there talking about Jesus.

But you also have a lot of atheists or people who are in you know that mode of

deconstruction that they call.

Well one of the ones that I was watching was this uh this woman who

was deconstructing and so I just typed in and and basically what she's doing is

she's talking about her journey through deconstruction.

And so I typed in and I said I said how did you arrive at the place that you arrived at.

And she said well it was because I took all of the evidence that was

presented to me and I was convinced that God was not real.

And so I responded and I said well thank you for answering my question.

But can someone be convinced that something is not true and still be wrong that

thing still be true.

And she never came back to answer that question because people think

or they are convinced that gravity is not real just because you're convinced that

it's not real.

Does that make gravity therefore false.

No it doesn't.

So you can still be convinced of something and be wrong.

Yeah they don't.

You know they don't walk off tall buildings right.

And so at that point we're not discussing evidences or

experience.

The bottom line is truth what is true versus what is not true.

And I want to get to what Jesse said here with it but let me just note for folks

did you notice what I did.

By the way when Isaac came in and said he doesn't believe in God which God do

you believe in.

What was my answer.

The same God he believes in.

Right?

Yeah maybe he had connection problems because he realized.

Oops this guy knows I believe in God right.

It's the same God he's suppressing he would like to.

Now could I have taken the bait and talked about the God of Islam.

Drew do I know a thing or two about.

Islam?

I think you've written about it in one of your books.

Yeah I think I wrote a book about it.

You know I seem to believe you have gone written about it and then taken it

to an Imam and an Imam said yes this is accurate.

Actually I gave two different Imams had reviewed the chapter and said that is accurate along with many

other Muslims so yeah it's a thing where I could have taken that bait.

Can I speak intelligently about Islam.

I believe that I can.

I studied the Quran for many years before writing my book and systematizing what the Quran teaches.

But.

Did I take that.

No I didn't take the bait.

Why.

Because that's not the issue.

He would much rather if he really is a professing Atheist he'd much rather sit and

poke holes at Christianity by trying to uphold what Islam is saying and say look there's no

difference.

They say this that's right.

But that's not his problem.

The problem is he's suppressing.

And as Drew said in Romans chapter 1 he's suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

He knows God exists.

He just suppresses that.

So I just get right to the heart of the issue.

Right.

The heart of the issue is he is suppressing that God.

And the evidence would be that he's going to say he believes Santa Claus doesn't exist.

But he doesn't go to the mall and you know yell Santa Claus doesn't exist.

But he'll come on this show to say God doesn't exist.

He's probably not reading books saying that Santa Claus doesn't exist yet.

He's probably reading books saying that God doesn't exist.

Right now one of the things you also did in responding the way you did is you established from the

beginning your foundation.

You established it and you said I believe the God of the Bible which by the way is also the same God that you believe in

right.

And so what did you not do.

You did not immediately run to an evidence to say let me prove to you God exists.

You established the God that you believed from the outset so that now everything else

has to come back to this God of the Bible.

Yeah not the God that I believe the God that is right.

Because that's what he was trying to say.

He was trying to say well you believe in this and Muslims believe in that and I'm saying no.

We all believe in the same we all know God exists the true God we all know that.

Yep someone.

Suppressed that.

Okay and that suppression comes out many different ways atheism, Islam, Mormonism many different ways to

suppress the God that we know exists.

And so we never we always want to be careful not to take the bait that someone gives

and to be careful to make sure that we're not going to deny the God that actually

exists.

Right.

We want to get you know establish that this is the truth because what do they want us to do.

They want us to give up the truth and argue from their worldview.

Well once we give up the Bible and argue from their worldview we've just lost because we gave up.

The truth.

Now that in responding the way you did through the questions that

he asked not taking the bait right because he asked you about the God you

believed in what is the true God and then where did he run he ran to

Islam.

Well if you take that bait what does that do.

That distracts from answering the actual question because what he wants to do is distract

you from answering about the God you believe in to talk about Islam and why Islam is false.

Well what he doesn't realize is that you will reveal why Islam is false in talking

about the God you believe in.

I could do that, that is correct but the thing is does he believe in Islam.

No, so why bother talking about it.

Exactly, right.

This is the thing you know folks when you have people, exactly it's a distraction.

When people do this don't fall for the bait.

There's a reason they do that and Melissa is.

Saying Drew exactly.

Exclamation point.

Melissa says.

That's why he ran away.

You just went straight for the jugular.

Well that's what it is.

Ultimately they're trying to come in and they're trying to establish a

worldview, a foundation for their worldview.

The problem is all you did was you removed the foundation from him so now he has nothing to hold on to

once you say okay laws of logic and of course always go back to the Greg

Bonds and Gordon Stein debate where they had the famous back and forth about laws of logic.

They're immaterial and they're universal.

So whether laws of logic exist only in your mind as a function of the mind, you take the mind away.

Laws of logic still apply because contradictions still exist because the law

of identity still exists, the law of what's the first law

excluded.

Middle.

Identity is the first.

Identity, contradiction excluded.

Middle, those laws still exist whether you remove the mind or not.

Yeah.

Alright so let me do this.

I gotta go back up, here's what Jesse says, so Jesse Heller said I think he suggested the laws of logic were

subjective experience but I'm willing to bet that he will sound like a Christian when someone

else contradicts himself and that's what I was gonna try to get to with him Jesse but we never got there.

Alright let me do this.

Now would be a good time.

Let me stop sharing the screen that I had, I wanna share a different screen here

because I wanna show you something.

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You see that is that showing up on the.

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I mentioned a better place to get coffee.

I have to put this up.

Actually my wife had the hot flashes and I was still the one sweating.

She just said she says it's just because I'm constantly moving and so

I'm probably running in my sleep.

Is what it is.

So a better place to get coffee.

I mean if you want to get the my coffee from mypillow go for it but a better place would be to go to squirrellyjoescoffee if

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We're really grateful for them so go get coffee and I suggest folks hey get coffee for your church

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know I open it up and pour it into a thing I think that I'm having a cup of wisdom.

I think that's what I'm currently drinking which might be I need.

It I need a cup of wisdom you know so.

So maybe you know Drew you want to get your wife something for her birthday or

anniversary.

Maybe you get her a bag of wisdom coffee.

So in every morning you can say hey honey let me make you a cup of wisdom.

You need this.

Maybe that's not the best thing to do.

Maybe.

She would look at me like.

Maybe in that case you should get her you know get her a bag of kindness or respect and

you can say dear I respect you so much.

Here's a cup of respect for you or a cup of integrity you know.

Now just.

All I see giving this to my wife is it coming being thrown back on me.

It's all depends on the presentation.

Drew if you go to your lovely wife in the morning and you're bringing her a freshly brewed

cup of coffee first off she's thankful that you did that but second when you say dear I'm

giving you a cup of respect because I respect you so much or you're so kind that here's a cup of kindness

or you have such integrity here's a cup of integrity now.

Maybe.

You know you don't really like coffee and so you want to give her a cup of honesty.

That's the decaf stuff.

I don't drink that so I've never had a cup of coffee.

Hold on let's talk about a lie real quick.

You're gonna call decaf a bag of honesty while decaf is

pretending to be coffee.

I have.

Said this to Squirrely Joe himself.

I was like you do realize that you named the fake coffee honesty

I don't know that he thought about it when he named it that.

And the half and half he's got one that's half decaf half regular and that's called responsibility.

Probably should have called that one lukewarm.

It's who wants to be coffee but doesn't at the same time.

But for those who for those who want to have a cup of decaf get yourself a good

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I don't know what it tastes like because I want real coffee but hey I mean the names are

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Get yourself a bag of Squirrely Joe's coffee.

Get the five pound bag for church so you can get the discounts there or you could do.

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So.

For home.

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I don't know which.

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Squirrely Joe's.

Alright so with that let's finally get to this 11 minute clip.

Now I fear that with you know we may not get this completely done you know being that

it's only 11 minutes and we have a tendency to yeah and I want to try to play all 11

minutes.

But we'll see.

And I did speed this up.

So it's going to be just for those of you listening on the podcast where you listen quickly you know quicker.

Sorry you're going to have to be even quicker.

You see what.

Andrew put up.

Let's put up Andrew's comment there if you don't mind.

Whoops.

Andrew says.

I want a real coffee.

Honesty I want real coffee.

I like that.

So.

Alright let's play this clip and I know we're going to be stopping in the first three seconds here but

this was something he put out as a clip about cessationists so he is speaking about

people that hold to the position that I would hold to.

That.

I just got back from the Philippines doing the Strange Fire Philippines conference where we talked about.

My two talks were giving a.

Biblical view.

Of cessationism and then my second one was on whether we should expect miracles today

and so let's listen to how he defines.

Us.

And let's see if this is fair now.

I posted this on Twitter and if you want to follow me on Twitter

that'd be wonderful.

I'm trying to get on it often but I am Andrew underscore SFE.

So Andrew underscore SFE if you want to follow me there.

And so what I did was put this out here and I mentioned we'd be talking about it tonight.

And the interesting thing with it is I had someone that contacted me and said that he thinks Mark was really

fair with this.

So let's give a listen.

The question is does the Holy Spirit still work today now.

It's interesting in some churches they wouldn't answer quite like that.

Okay let's stop it right there, Drew.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit continues working today?

Yes.

He's already started with a false premise he's

poisoning the well right now.

So this is also I mean there's several different fallacies that this could be because it's also a straw man.

Yeah, straw man.

This is a very common argument that continuationists make that somehow we

cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit does not work today and that's the question that

you can see if I move this out of the way.

He's.

I'll move this banner out of the way quickly so you can see it, it says.

Does the Holy Spirit continue his work.

Today.

Yes, he does.

I'm saying that as a cessationist as someone who believes the gift ceased now here's here's

the fallacy with this folks.

Here's when we do and if you take my class and my class on apologetics and debate is

going to be available for those who watch Driving Fraternity's YouTube channel so you can see them there, Monday nights.

But.

We're going to teach people how to look for these things.

Look at the premise of the argument.

So the premise of his argument is that the only work that the Holy Spirit.

Is doing.

Are these gifts that we say ceased is the Holy Spirit.

Let me just ask you Drew.

I'm going to ask you because you're here, series of questions quickly, just rapid fire, but are you a cessationist?

Do you believe that the gifts that certain gifts have ceased?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit still works today?

Do you believe the Spirit gives the gift of administration?

Yes.

Today?

Yes, the gift of administration in terms of the ability to lead

and manage over large portions of people and

activities, we'll just say within a church.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives the gift of giving today?

Do you have that gift?

Sometimes, sometimes I do.

Let's talk, we could use a donation.

Now.

That's a gift no one wants to admit they have right now.

Do you believe that the gift the Holy Spirit gives the gift of teaching today?

Yes.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates his word to the believers today?

Yes.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives application of his word to believers today?

Yes.

Are all of these things ministries of the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

And are they still present today?

Yes.

So right there I would agree 100 % with everything that you said as a cessationist.

So as we see here the argument he starts off with not only poisoning the well

it's a straw man because that's not the proper definition of cessationism we do not believe that the Holy Spirit.

Stopped.

Giving gifts we believe that he is not continuing to give certain gifts.

Why?

Because he's not continuing to give revelation that those gifts pointed to.

That's the point if there's no new revelation there's no need for the gifts.

That's what I believe he's saying in 1 Corinthians 13 that we don't have a need to continue with these gifts.

You've already said it when they talk about the work of the Holy Spirit they

only limit it to signs and miracles and wonders.

They never branch out and talk about all the other gifts.

And you know what they also never mention.

The.

Primary function and role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to Christ.

They never mention that.

Okay and so this is very common.

Okay and you guys may have heard me talk about this.

When I talk about women pastors I've brought this up from Genesis and we're going to look at this

again.

But when women are told they can't be a pastor they're like oh so women can't do anything in the church.

No we're not saying that.

He's saying oh so you're saying so these couple of gifts didn't continue.

So there's no gifts.

So Holy Spirit's not doing anything.

Where does that thinking come from?

Let's go back to Genesis chapter 2.

Genesis chapter 2 starting in verse 16.

The Lord.

God commanded the man saying from any tree in the garden you may eat

freely.

But from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat.

For on the day that you eat of it you will surely die.

Okay it's really clear.

Let's look in Genesis chapter 3 verse 1.

And what the serpent says to Eve.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the beasts of the field which the Lord had made.

And he said to the woman indeed has God said you shall not eat from any

tree of the garden.

What did he do?

He basically did the same thing that Mark Driscoll's doing here that the women do.

When they say you're saying a woman can't do anything they're doing the same thing Satan does

saying if God says you can't do one thing it means you can't do anything.

And Eve corrected the serpent.

The woman said to the serpent from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may.

Eat but.

The fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden.

God said you shall not eat of it or touch it or you will die.

Everyone criticizes Eve because she said or touch it because they say see she added to

scripture.

We do not know that.

We know that that's an addition to what God said.

But was it Eve or Adam who said that.

I mean Adam might have been the one to say don't even touch it.

We do that with our kids.

Right?

You say with Lawson you don't just say don't touch something that's hot.

You say stay away from it right?

You don't say it'll burn you just if you touch it.

You're like just stay away from it.

Maybe Adam did the same thing.

So let's be honest with what scripture says.

But this is where this comes from.

This is straight out of the same tactic Satan uses.

I'm not now look I'm not saying that Mark Driscoll is Satan.

He's not.

You know.

I'm not saying that women who pastors are Satan.

I'm just saying this is where we first see this behavior.

So we have to recognize that behavior as wrong.

Okay?

Eve corrected the serpent so I'm gonna correct Mark Driscoll.

Okay?

The fact that the Holy Spirit does not continue giving certain gifts does not mean he stops giving all

gifts or stops working all together.

Right right you know when and you know you mentioned Lawson.

Lawson by the way for folks to realize that's your little boy.

That's my little boy he's my four year old so a lot people in the chat who are friends with me on

Facebook you know they see me post pictures of him and stuff and.

As in a week or two ago we got to see him when he was still awake during the show.

That's right he has made an appearance or two on the show.

Rhett has also.

He's my youngest but as Lawson gets older right do I stop giving him

gifts.

No.

I give him different gifts right.

So just because I don't give him he's big into cars right.

He loves cars and trucks and stuff.

So.

Just because I may stop giving him cars.

Does that mean I stop giving him gifts all together.

No I.

Just he has no need for that gift because now he's older now he doesn't play with those things.

Now it's time for him to mature right.

So that thinking is not just an evil

thinking because it comes from Satan.

It's also just childish thinking.

It's immature thinking.

Yeah.

Which is exactly what you know.

Jesse says this.

So before we go on with Driscoll's talk here it'd be good to lay the foundation for this

Jesse Heller is saying.

And this is referring to.

1 Corinthians 13 verse 10 where it says

when the completeness comes and I appreciate.

I don't know Jesse what translation you're referring to because he has in quotes when the completeness comes unquote.

The.

Other translations have this word when the perfect comes.

Whatever translation he's using is more accurate.

So Jesse let me know.

I'm curious what translation that is.

That is a more accurate translation.

I'm going to explain why but he says when the when the completeness comes is referring to when we see Jesus face to face not the completion of

the canon.

What am I missing in the context.

Huh.

LSB it's the LSB.

I was wondering that.

Yeah that figures so.

So.

Jesse what you are missing is the context.

Because the context is not verse.

Well the context is verse 9.

It's part of the same sentence it says.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part but when the perfect comes the partial

will be done away so this completeness is tied to the partial.

What's the partial.

The partial is is said here to be the the prophecy and the knowledge.

What is that.

Well verse 8.

Is.

Says love never fails.

But where there are gifts prophecy they will be done away with tongues they will cease.

If there is knowledge it will be done away with so prophecy tongues knowledge

those are three gifts and he says the knowledge and the prophecy are

partial.

So.

Whatever they are the completion is tied to these two gifts

the the partial those are the partial these are the complete.

So.

These gifts are revelatory gifts.

So the closing of the canon completes that revelation.

So 11 and 12 are three illustrations.

You do not interpret the main thing by the illustration.

The illustration illustrates the main thing.

It's not the main thing.

So as with the example you gave with Lawson he Paul says.

When I was a child I spoke as a child.

I acted like a child reasoned like a child.

I put away the childish things when I became a man.

What is that this word teleos which perfect or completeness is the idea of maturity or

complete.

So when you become an adult you put away childish things.

When the word of God is complete you put away the prophecy and the knowledge.

It's not needed because you've matured.

It's completed.

He talks about looking in polished metal dimly.

I hate that it says mirror because the mirrors people think of are not the mirrors.

They had it even.

Says the word dimly.

But it's looking in polished metal dimly versus looking clearly face to face.

That is an illustration.

He is not saying that.

This is when we see Jesus.

Face to face because.

This is an illustration of the word teleos making the point that when when you look at

something face to face very clearly then you don't need what is dim.

Now.

Some will make the case to say well face to face always refers to a.

Personal.

Encounter.

Well though people make that claim.

Proverbs.

27.

Verse 19 uses the same language when it says as in water face

reflects face so the heart of man reflects man.

Now the word reflects is not there in the Hebrew it's the same you have here in the Greek

as in water face.

Face.

And so in Proverbs 27 19 it is not saying we have a personal encounter with water.

It is in exactly talking about the same context that Paul is making here.

It's reflection.

That's why we look in a mirror to get a reflection.

But the mirrors back then were not clear they were dim and so

it was a polished metal.

So it's the comparison of seeing not clear seeing dimly versus seeing clearly

same.

The same illustration the imperfect to the perfect the partial to the complete.

The third illustration is knowing apart versus fully known.

You have three illustrations pointing to.

It so.

For Jesse or any others and I don't know if Jesse had responded because I

had my scripture up that I was looking at but I hope that helps.

So you understand that what we're talking about here is the fact that the direct context it's the same part of

the sentence verse 9 is what defines what the perfect or teleos is.

It is tied.

It is the completion of the prophecy and the knowledge and so once that becomes

once that prophecy is done then.

That goes away.

Okay that's the context.

All right.

Let's continue on.

I hope that was helpful.

That'll be necessary and I know there's a lot of questions coming in.

Let's see.

We're only 10 seconds in 11 minutes and we got 45 minutes left in the show.

But.

Let's see.

This is actually a big debate within Christianity and there are various views of the work of the Holy Spirit in the miraculous

ways or what is called the sign gifts speaking in tongues miracles healings things like that.

One group are the cessationists and they would say simply the Holy Spirit won't act.

Okay.

Will we say that.

No no we've actually already proven that we I mean I don't know a single cessationist

that would say that the.

In fact I'll say that the Holy Spirit has told us when he would act.

Okay.

In Hebrews.

Okay so in Hebrews we end up having very clear this is Hebrews chapter 2

the first four verses.

For this reason and this is what it says.

For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard so that we do not

drift away from it.

So what are we paying attention to what we heard.

What are they hearing.

They're hearing.

Direct revelation from God.

Prophecy.

Right.

Because they're.

This is when the scripture is still being written.

But look because we're going to have more evidence for that verse 2.

For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable and

every transgression and disobedience received is has a just penalty how will we

escape if we neglect so great a salvation.

After it was at the first spoken through the Lord

it was confirmed to us those who heard God

also testifying with them both by signs and wonders and various

miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will.

So what is he saying is the purpose of these gifts to testify

to the prophecy to the revelation that they heard from God.

So if there is no more new revelation there is no more

need for these gifts.

I love this verse and the thing that caused

me to actually really love this verse was listening to Jim

teach it and explain it.

Jim Osmond yeah.

And let me say for folks if you haven't heard Jim's teaching on Hebrews

you can go to Kootenai Community Church Kootenai.

You could.

Actually just go to ChristianPodcastCommunity .org if you don't know how to spell Kootenai.

Their morning worships are there and you can go back and listen to their whole series on Hebrews and and here's

my suggestion my encouragement to everyone when you do listen to that series it's a great series.

Please contact Jim Osmond of Kootenai Community Church and ask him would you please put

this teaching into a commentary.

Please yes.

I've been begging him.

When we were in the Philippines I actually I did ask if everyone you know a thousand people.

Could you all I said when you take a photo with Jim Osmond could you all just ask him to

put his series of Hebrews into a commentary.

You know he really needs to because not only does he explain this verse very well

but when he gets into what he discusses as the problem passages or the

warning passages.

It.

Clarifies so much.

Yes.

It's so helpful.

But in regards to this verse I love how he breaks it down because he reveals who the

them is in verse 4 God also testifying with them by signs and

wonders.

Who's the them.

The apostles and Jesus.

And then he does this wonderful thing where he gives this just daisy chain of verses

that you can go back and you can mark them in my bible.

Every bible I have I mark them in it.

So you see this is why Jesus did these miracles.

And then it goes to the next verse.

Jesus did this because of this reason and the same with the apostles.

The apostles were doing this for this reason and you only see them doing those things.

Now he does say that there are people that aren't apostles that are

doing gifts, signs and wonders but there are people who are directly

tied closely to the apostles that are working with them.

And everyone.

Has to go into it.

Paul in the sermon of Hebrews.

Oh did I give that away?

I think this is a sermon by Paul.

And but.

Which Jim disagrees and he gives evidence for that.

I know.

Yeah.

We do have to have that debate where he thinks that Matthias was a 12th disciple and not Paul but.

Or apostle.

But you know let me just finish wrap that up though as

well with going to 1 Corinthians 1 because many know my good friend Matt Slick we

disagree on these things.

I was glad when people were calling me.

There were memes from the conference going out and people were calling me a false teacher a heretic.

Matt Slick came and defended me and I greatly appreciated that.

And so folks who.

Know Matt.

You could see that he's a genuine person and he said I know

Andrew personally I'm paraphrasing but he said I know Andrew personally.

We disagree on these things, we've debated these things but he's not a false teacher and so.

But Matt believes that his thing that really convinces him that these gifts continue is 1 Corinthians

1 7 which says so that you are not lacking any gift and that word gift is charisma that you're not lacking

any gift awaiting eagerly the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So he says that these charismatic gifts must continue until the Lord Jesus Christ.

The problem I have with it is.

The.

Word gift or charisma is not limited to just the gifts

that we say ceased.

Okay.

Yes the charismatic movement got its name from this word charisma for gift.

There's two different words for gift.

But the word gift is not.

Limited to these miraculous gifts it's just that the movement took

that on as a name.

So just because the movement takes it on doesn't mean Paul is saying that a movement that started in the

1900s was going to continue until the time of Christ.

The key with this is when looking at this hermeneutically is the word lacking so that you are not

lacking any gift.

Lack requires a need and so with what we have said in 1 Corinthians 13

and Hebrews 2 if there is no new revelation of scripture there is

no need.

Therefore the church is not lacking any gift because it doesn't need the gift because it has

the completed canon.

And by the way if you want.

Go to strivingfortraining .org.

Slash miracles.

And you could see.

And hear my message on the same message I delivered at the Philippines conference the

strange fire Philippines conference.

Because there I go.

Through and show all the miracles done by human beings and there's only three periods of time

where we see lots of miracles that are somewhat where it seems almost normative.

80 miracles done over 4 ,000 years of biblical history are all at the time when new writing

of scripture is being done.

And so if you outside of those three periods Moses and Aaron

Elijah and Elisha and the disciples outside of those three time periods you only have 8 miracles being done by

human beings in 4 ,000.

Years.

So miracles were extremely rare extremely rare done by human beings

in that time.

And so the proof the burden of proof is on a guy like Mark Driscoll to defend the fact that he

claims that they should be happening regularly because scriptures don't support it history doesn't support it.

Yeah so with that I am going to have to quote Jim Osmond who said if

miracles are common then by definition they're not miracles.

Correct.

Yeah and that's something that I pointed out that I didn't say it as eloquently as Jim.

But no one says anything as eloquently.

As Jim it's true that is true.

I was glad that I preached before Jim by the way so I ended my message and I asked how many people have heard

Pastor Jim Osmond preach and you know he was not very well known there in the Philippines.

And so.

People knew of him from the round table discussion with Michael Brown and you know Justin and Sam

Storms but they hadn't heard him preach and I was like you're in for a treat because I think that Jim is one of

the best if not the best exegete of scripture alive today.

Yeah and I think one of the things that that is helpful just I know in the

conversations that I've had with Jim you know the interactions and then just watching him

is the way his mind works in the questions that he

asks.

Because he asks questions that demand an answer and he asks it

in such a way where you just kind of have to stop and think.

Right.

You can't just spitball one out.

You have to stop and think and go.

Okay let me get back to you on that right.

It's.

Talking to Jim is very humbling.

I'll say that.

So.

I think we have a good enough foundation.

I want to really want to address that this isn't fair but let's

continue seeing what he's going to say.

He doesn't do today what he did yesterday.

In the past he was very active but today.

He is not okay so.

We're not saying he wasn't he was active then he's not now.

We're saying he was giving certain gifts then that he's not giving now.

And Mark Driscoll agrees whether he got submitted or not.

Because he doesn't he will not say that the prophecy of the bible which

has to be 100 accurate.

He's not saying that's the same thing.

As today.

Okay he's not holding that to the same standard.

He will say that people could be wrong about their prophecy.

Well if he's saying that then it's not the same prophecy.

Therefore the prophecy of the biblical times ceased and we have something new.

Let's look at it this way.

So what he says.

On there he says.

The holy cessationists believe the holy spirit won't act.

Okay now let's move from what they would view as the holy spirit acting as

miracle signs and wonders.

Okay now let's prove that Mark Driscoll is a functioning

cessationist.

If we look at Ananias and Sapphira in scripture they were killed

because they lied to the holy spirit and then the holy spirit acted and killed them.

So now does Mark Driscoll believe that the holy spirit still kills people today for false worship.

I'm gonna say he probably doesn't think that.

God does that today he probably.

Doesn't think God does that today so he would be a functioning cessationist in

that.

Area.

But he may say hey but God may do it he just doesn't do it.

That's.

A great way to weasel out of it but that would.

Be the same point that people could say.

That's the.

John Piper argument God could give.

These gifts today he just doesn't.

He chooses not to.

That's a really good point Drew.

Alright let's continue.

In addition there is then what I would call functional cessationism.

Cessation means ceased and their premise would be the holy spirit can act but he doesn't.

Oh wait.

That's just what we were talking about.

Oh sorry we actually did see this video so we knew it was coming.

This is actually the first time I've seen this.

Oh okay I'm reacting to this in real time like he can do whatever he.

Wants but he doesn't really do anything anymore like he can if he wants but they're very suspicious that God would show up in power.

Then there is the continuationist view.

Okay now.

I think that there are people that would have that.

Right.

So that would I mean I mentioned.

John Piper so.

Now let's look at what he's going to say is the continuationist view.

Let's see if he's going to be as fair as I don't think he's fair with the cessationist but let's see what his view

is with the continuationist.

It's also called charismatic you don't know I'm charismatic.

Okay so let's look at what he just said there.

If you believe that God works today you're charismatic.

Is that.

A proper definition of charismatic.

Drew?

No.

And that's the thing he's giving a false definitions here.

These are called straw man so you give a straw man argument is an argument where you give something that's easy to knock over

a wrong definition so you can knock it over and defend it which he'll defend very easily.

Um.

And so what ends up happening is he can say oh see they're saying the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything.

We say the Holy Spirit so if you believe the Spirit exists is working today you're charismatic.

No there's a big difference between saying that the gifts certain gifts that were necessary

for vindicating the writing of scripture don't exist.

That's all.

We're not saying all the gifts don't exist.

We don't say the Holy Spirit's not active.

But I'm not charismatic because or as he's saying continuationist that's not a proper

definition.

Okay.

And that's the thing that I ended up seeing with this.

You know.

Right out of the gate when someone has to give wrong definitions.

Um.

You know.

That that's.

That right there they're telling you that they don't have a good argument because their argument is illogical.

It's flawed.

So now I'm just gonna.

I mean that's really it was only the first minute I needed to cover but now we're just gonna trigger Drew and play more of it

since he didn't watch it.

So here we go.

Drew's just gonna say stop when he has enough.

There's no.

I love Jesus I love the Father I love the Holy Spirit whatever God wants for me I want.

I believe God is the same yesterday today and forever and I'll tell you.

No he doesn't because we just proved.

Would he believe that God would kill someone like he did Ananias and Sapphira in the same way.

No he doesn't believe that God is still the same yesterday today and forever.

But then he's also continuing to build this straw man by saying I believe God I believe Jesus I

believe the Holy Spirit I want whatever God wants for me as though the cessationist doesn't believe those things as well.

So.

This is a logical fallacy as well.

I have a paper on strivingforeturning .org.

About this.

If you go to strivingforeturning .org just search for the hebrews 13 8.

There is a difference between Jesus being the same yesterday today and forever that is talking about the nature of

Christ.

There's a difference between the nature of Christ and the way that Christ behaves.

So here's a question for Mark Driscoll.

Mark Driscoll I'm going to step into his world and make his argument.

Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever therefore the way he deals with his people cannot change.

So Mark Driscoll do you worship on Saturday and do you keep kosher.

Answer.

No.

I'm pausing for effect.

Folks that's the reality.

I just made his argument.

He doesn't live by his own argument because God has changed the way he has dealt with

us where we no longer have to keep kosher.

Alright.

And yet.

God hasn't changed.

In fact we only see in the book of Acts where we see people having the gift of languages.

We don't see it in the Old Testament.

It's prophesied it'll happen as a judgment on the nation of Israel but

we don't see it in the Old Testament.

Therefore it shouldn't have happened in the New Testament.

Because Jesus is the.

Same yesterday today and forever.

You see how bad the argument is.

It doesn't make sense.

That ship is taking on water pretty quick from the hole that you shot in it.

Yes.

Ok you can continue.

For a little bit we'll see how long.

Holy Spirit is still Satan is not a cessationist.

Ok.

Satan is not a cessationist.

I don't know what that has to do with it.

He's going to do everything he can to kill, steal, and destroy and so we're asking the Holy Spirit to do whatever he wants

to stop that evil.

The only thing I could think he's saying there is that he's saying that if you deny the gifts

you're acting like Satan trying to stop the work of the

Spirit.

I think he might be heading in a direction of saying if you believe

not even Satan is a cessationist.

So if you're a cessationist you might be worse than Satan.

I can see him going in that direction.

Whether he does or not I don't know but I mean I didn't

understand the point of not even Satan is a cessationist that doesn't have anything to do with anything.

So what.

Yeah.

I think that I made an argument with this when I said that it is

Satan where we first see this argument of that you know if you

say can't have these gifts the Holy Spirit's not doing anything.

But I was really careful not to do what he just did in bucketing him in saying he's Satanic

or saying that what he's teaching is Satanic.

He is sort of applying that.

We are.

And.

I'm just looking.

We got 25 minutes left.

Let's do this because I got to the main thing I wanted to cover.

With this.

Why don't we get to some of the questions that we have.

Because I want to engage with our audience and then if there's time let's get back to this.

Is that okay?

And I think some of our audience would probably be glad because I remember seeing a comment from I think Melissa or someone that you know said

like they'd rather have their fingernails pulled out or something rather than listen to Mark Driscoll.

Mark Driscoll is one of the hardest people for me to listen to.

Because you're his follower.

Oh yeah absolutely.

You know I actually hadn't even heard the name Mark Driscoll until after all the Marsh Hill stuff

was already done and over.

I was late to that party but I have heard

his past stuff and then I was for a short time a part of the AX29 network

about four or five years ago and seeing the seeing how he affected

that movement that he was the president of and then seeing the following leadership

that came after him that acted in the same way.

Yeah.

Andrew's making a good point here he says Mark is giving Satan more power than Satan has.

Yeah.

And that's what charismatics actually do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they don't recognize it they give their own personal experience.

And so let's put up some of the questions that we've gotten and I just grabbed the questions.

So some of these I haven't read I just didn't read them I just grabbed them and they're like all from John a

lot of them.

It's all the same question.

Oh is it?

Okay.

Alright so then I'll have to look let me know.

So he says.

Question cessationists believe God will never.

Ever.

One single time speak a single word dream prophecy ever again only

the Bible and God is silent.

That's not silent in the Bible.

Okay so let's see.

So you're right.

So here he says again.

I understand that cessationists believe God could give a dream word of

knowledge however would never wouldn't do it again.

So is it.

So.

All of his questions are the same.

You're saying.

Yeah they're essentially the same they're just in a different form.

So regarding cessationists is it true that you believe that God would never not one single time for the rest of human history

ever give a vision word of knowledge dream of prophecy.

And the last one is the same.

You have another two.

It looks like yeah but they're essentially the same idea.

Yeah cause here's another one so he really wants this answered.

Yeah.

And then he changed his name from brother John to Nathan.

This is Facebook.

Oh okay so he really wants an answer.

So so I guess to answer your question.

That you really want answered.

Are we saying that God cannot do that.

No.

I'm asking the question why would God do that.

Why does he need to and I've said it on here multiple times what revelation

what prophecy what word of knowledge what any of those does God need to give me

outside of his word of God that he hasn't already given me through his word.

Yeah and that's that's the thing.

Is.

Once we understand the purpose of these miraculous gifts then we understand

why they don't continue today.

Okay.

And so could God.

Could God give these gifts.

Sure I would.

I would expect to see them tied to revelation.

But like I said we do see eight times in history outside of the new

writing of scripture where human beings do something miraculous.

Samson for example.

Okay.

And so he has that ability to do something that was not.

Normal.

And so that was a gifting he had by the way I'll point out.

That he had that ability.

As long as his hair was long to do it whenever he wanted.

Unlike what they people say with the gifts today where it's the person has no control

over it.

It's really God doing it and it's just like oh okay well.

You know.

The person may get it wrong.

They could.

Yes that's why they say someone could have the gift of healing but they don't have to go into a hospital and empty the place because

it's not them doing it it's God doing it through them.

Well then then that's not the gift that's a miracle because the the thing is that

people think that as cessationist we believe miracles don't continue.

And we believe very clearly miracles continue by humans.

It's the gift of miracles that don't continue.

So.

Let me see what else we have.

Start here.

So Melissa.

Melissa says.

Mark Driscoll has a lot in common with women.

He shouldn't be at the pulpit either.

Good point.

Alright.

Andrew Graham says the Holy Spirit is eternal so how the Holy Spirit.

How does the Holy Spirit cease to work or does the Spirit cease to exist.

I don't think the Spirit ceases to work or cease to exist I think what it.

Is is that he.

Gave gifts for the purpose of vindicating the new writing of Scripture and we don't have the new writing of Scripture

so those gifts aren't being given.

They're not necessary.

They're not necessary.

Because when we look at we'll just say prophecy in tongues

those are revelatory gifts.

We've talked about that numerous times.

What new revelation do I need.

I don't need any.

Right.

What.

Healing.

What temporal healing do I need.

Does God heal people.

Yeah he absolutely does.

But that's different than someone like Andrew possessing the gift and sees

me lame and says get up and walk.

Right.

That's something that doesn't exist.

So when I see someone that and I've heard this time and time

again people touting Todd White and they go that man has the gift of healing.

Well no he has the gift of sleight of hand and parlor tricks.

That's what he has.

But even if you look at what he's doing he's praying

for God to heal someone.

Okay then who's doing it now.

I've heard them attribute the gift of healing to him.

But even he has to pray to God to heal but what he's doing is not actually healing.

He's just doing a parlor trick.

But he doesn't possess the gift of healing because that gift has ceased.

You won't find.

Now let me rephrase you will find people who fake it

who think they have the gift of healing and they pretend to heal people you

won't find a true healer.

Someone who actually possesses that gift.

Yeah.

And if they did they would be able to do as the disciples did and heal who they wanted to heal

until God removed that.

So.

Alright we have one more that you had starred here sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry about my voice it's still recovering from the Philippines.

KT in Jesus says one person seems to think that cessationists are going by their

experience.

What kind of twist on it.

How would you respond.

So a person saying that cessationists are going by their experience I guess I could

see where they would say we would say that the charismatics are going by experience.

Because a lot of what they say is and you'll see this you'll see my debate with Matt when he got stuck on

the whole thing of that the word not lacking requires a need.

He ended up appealing to his personal experience.

I've had that countless times.

Actually every time I've talked to a charismatic they always when they get pressured to a point

they always fall back on the well I had this experience.

And so that's where I always say.

Well their experience is what is their ultimate authority.

But I can say look they could be making the claim you came from a charismatic

background.

I came from a charismatic background we walked away from it.

So they could be saying we disagree with it.

Because we had a bad experience because our experience was we were faking it when we spoke in tongues.

And so we didn't have the real thing.

That was our experience and so we're I could see that because I want to be fair.

Look folks when you do apologetics you want to be fair with the other side and the only way you can be fair with the other side is to actually engage with

what their point is.

Never.

When you do apologetics never assume someone's position and then just run right into it.

That's what Mark Driscoll is doing here.

And it's easy to tear it apart.

So do I respect Mark Driscoll's argument no.

Is he going to convince me.

No.

Why.

Because he's going with a false definition and is running right into with it.

We don't want to be guilty of that.

You must take the time to understand someone's position what they're actually arguing and engage with that.

Because the purpose of apologetics is not to win a debate or get a bunch of pats on the back.

It is to convince someone of the truth.

And so you want to be able to use.

Good logical arguments.

So.

I'm trying to engage with what they'd actually say and say that.

Okay that could be a fair argument.

I think it could be because people are there are people who say yes.

I was in the charismatic movement I thought I spoke in tongues I faked it.

Yeah.

Okay and so is that.

Does that mean that.

It's you know that because of my experience that's what is making it wrong.

No in fact this whole time tonight have you at any point heard me whether in

this.

Show.

Or any other show that we've dealt with this issue.

We've dealt with it a number of times whether we dealt my talk at the cessationist conference the strange fire Philippines

conference.

You know if you have us in your church to do our cessationist seminar you're never going to hear me talk about my experience

other than at the beginning where I just say yes I was in this movement.

But what do I give.

I give the scripture and as I did with 1st Corinthians 13 8 and following

1st Corinthians 1 7.

Hebrews 2.

I'm dealing with the text of scripture and especially with 1st Corinthians 13.

You saw me tying it to the context and working through the passage.

Okay I didn't.

Give you my experience and said well this must be true because this happened to me doesn't matter what happened to me it matters what the.

Scripture say everyone has an experience so you can't go by experience alone.

It's fine to talk about your experience but my experience doesn't lead me to my

theological positions.

Scripture does so just because I had an experience or in my case a

lack of experience.

It.

Drove me to the scriptures to find out is there something wrong with me.

No.

What I found out was there was a problem with what I was being taught and then how I was interpreting.

Scripture there's problems with you.

Don't worry yeah there's plenty.

Yeah I have a lot of problems but in terms of charismatic.

It's not that.

It's not that.

Brother John had said thank you for answering my question.

I am still learning what cessationists believe.

So what we believe we've laid out.

I hope it's helpful.

But we believe that God gave these gifts to validate the new revelation of

scripture.

And without new revelation of scripture we do not need these gifts anymore.

The childish things should be put away.

What I see is that people are continuing just like they did in Corinth.

That's why Paul had to correct them.

They were still continuing with the childish things.

Of these.

Gifts that were starting to fade even in that time and so you know that's what

we end up seeing and I think people focus on the gifts more than the giver of gifts.

So alright.

So let's see what else you start here.

Okay so John says.

Question.

Cessationists believe God heals people today however.

Never would ever.

Give someone a dream or vision or a single word of prophecy ever again okay.

I start this for a reason because when we're looking at healing versus

dreams visions or prophecy we're talking about two different

categories.

We're talking about healing someone that God can do which is different than the gift

of healing that someone would possess versus a revelatory gift.

So we I would say yes.

We have no need for dreams visions or word of prophecy because we have scripture and then

I default back to what does God need to show me or say to

me outside of scripture that he has not already spoken.

And even in the question now in my talk on should we expect miracles today I

think I stole it from Norman Geisler.

He talked about the gift of miracles and the fact of miracles because we need some way to differentiate this

and John's question leads this cessationists believe God.

God.

Heals people today.

Who's doing the healing.

John in your question you lay it out God.

That's the fact of healing.

That's not the gift of healing.

The gift of healing is God gives a gift to someone and they can heal people.

That's not God doing it.

It's God giving the gift and people doing it.

That's the difference.

So do we believe that people heal today.

No.

God heals today God doesn't give the gift of healing today.

So the fact and the gift are two different things and so when we talk about the miraculous that's why I

talked about the gift of the miraculous and the fact of the miraculous and they're.

Different okay.

I hope that that may be helpful.

To you.

Let's see one last one that you have here.

Cessationists have a very careful outlined biblical reasoning.

I agree with that.

You started that I guess because you just wanted to agree.

I thought it was a great way to end.

We have.

A very carefully outlined biblical reason because like we've already talked about

when we look when the continuationists ones that you've dealt with ones that

I have dealt with when they come to scripture do they take the entirety of a

passage in its context.

No.

They typically isolate one verse or a passage and they remove it from its context and they try to

apply it to something that the author is not even applying it to and then they read in their experiences

into the text.

What we do is we try to deal with these texts very carefully

hermeneutically.

And so we look at what was going on at the time.

Who's writing.

Who are they writing to.

When was this even written right.

We talked about that at the beginning.

Whether Paul was talking about a fourth telling or a foretelling it

could be both depending on the time that it was written.

Right.

So we analyze these things very very carefully.

But we don't just take one passage of scripture and then another passage that may have a word or something that

we like that we think we can tie to it.

We take the entirety of scripture and we analyze it and then we come to our

conclusion.

That's how we carefully examine and come to our position on

cessationism.

And they put up.

Jason Cave says scripture proves scripture in context.

Hashtag hermeneutics matters.

Yeah.

Good old Georgia boy right there.

Which is what you're saying.

Jason he's a good old Georgia boy.

Yeah and that's really what you guys discussed in last week's episode.

So with that.

I knew we weren't going to get through all of Mark's thing we got through the main thing because after that he's just going to

explain his views but I think that what we end up seeing is I

think we've laid out that the arguments here that he's making are not very good

they're not valid.

If you want to see the full clip just go on my twitter and you can find it there.

But.

I'm hoping John is saying interesting show.

God bless you all from Canada.

I hope that guys who disagree with us would feel comfortable coming in being able

to discuss it or asking questions here.

I try to be fair.

I try to be.

I don't do what I'm criticizing Driscoll of doing.

I'm criticizing him giving false definitions.

I'm trying not to do that.

I try to be fair with the other side and make sure I'm getting what they're saying in the proper context

and then laying out why I think scripture speaks differently even with.

Who was it.

Jesse.

Was his name Jesse.

I think he probably agrees with us in the cessationism but disagrees with us on what the

teleos is in 1 Corinthians 13.

Now maybe he's changed his position on that.

I actually did, I was invited on to a podcast called Doxological Podcast.

They heard my talk on miracles and so they wanted to talk

about it, the difference between the gift of miracles fact of miracles and it was really funny because as I went through 1

Corinthians 13.

The guys.

There.

Actually changed their position while I went through it.

It was really kind of funny, the pastor goes he's like I think I just changed my position.

You know.

And that's what I'm hoping to do is to have where we can lay out a good enough argument that you go.

Yeah this is consistent with scripture this is what the scripture is teaching and so yeah.

And so Jason Cave who is a member on YouTube supports us through YouTube, says good show.

Good to have you back Andrew.

Which Andrew, we're both Andrew.

But no I appreciate.

I'm not the one that left, you did.

Well you left last week, you weren't feeling well.

And I.

Should apologize to folks so Drew put a comment in the Apologetics

Live Facebook group to let you know that I was traveling.

I was on a flight coming home wouldn't be able to do the show, he wasn't feeling good but none of you saw it

because I didn't approve it because yeah, I was in the air so I did

make Drew a moderator.

Of that group.

Ok, I've accepted it.

Now there you go.

So you can now put those in because I realize bad on my part that my co -host can't post to

let folks know but that's where we're going to let folks know and I know that Melissa

will always message me.

Hey was there a show tonight.

If there's a show we're going to update the Apologetics Live page.

That's how you'll definitely know that there's going to be a show because we always update it with what the show will be about

and so if that hasn't been updated then you know we're not planning to do a show.

But we usually try to post it in the Apologetics Live Facebook group.

So if you're not in that group that might be a good place to go right now and join that.

And so that way you know when we do have to cancel last minute, that's where we post it and sorry that we had to

do that.