May 1, 2017 Show with Mark G. Johnston on “You in Your Small Corner: The Elusive Dream of Evangelical Unity”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland.

County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are

listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on

this first day of May 2017.

I'm very excited to have back on the program Pastor Mark G.

Johnston of Bethel Presbyterian Church in Cardiff, Wales,

and this is going to be in order to promote an upcoming conference.

It's actually a pastor's conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the

Elizabethtown College, the United States Banner of Truth Minister's

Conference, and we'll be talking more about that.

Before I introduce my guest and our theme today, I want to just let everybody know

that I had a wonderful time at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology this weekend, this

past weekend, in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania at Proclamation Presbyterian Church, and it was such a joy

to once again see Carl Truman and Rick Phillips and

Dan Doriani, not only see them in person, but hear them preach and share

fellowship with old friends and new.

In fact, some dear old friends of mine from Grace Reform Baptist Church on Long Island and

even going way back before then when it was Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island,

I had some dear old friends that were members of that church, John

and Joe Matone, and they surprised me by showing up at the conference there in Bryn

Mawr, Pennsylvania, and it was just a blessing to be there, not only to hear the edifying

messages, but to have so many people approach the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth

to ensure me that they would listen and also to meet some of my listeners that I had never met or

heard from before who are already listening to Iron Sharpens Iron regularly and have informed me that

they are richly blessed by the broadcast.

I thank Bob Brady at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and everybody who

enabled Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to participate in that event.

But as I said, today we have another event.

We are promoting the Banner of Truth U .S. Ministers Conference, and my guest to do that is Mark G.

Johnson, minister of Bethel Presbyterian Church in Cardiff, Wales, and

he is a trustee of the Banner of Truth Trust and the author of three commentaries in

Banner of Truth's Let's Study series on John Colossians and Philemon and

2nd Peter and Jude.

And today we are discussing a book that he has written for Christian Focus Publications, You

in Your Small Corner, the Elusive Dream of Evangelical Unity, and it's my honor and privilege to

welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Mark G. Johnson.

Thank you, Chris.

Praise God.

Well, before we go into the subject at hand for our listeners who have

not yet heard you on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio or perhaps they are unfamiliar with you

and the church where you pastor, tell us something about Bethel Presbyterian Church and the

location.

Where this church is serving

Christ.

Great,

and

the

denomination

that

your

congregation

is in is

the

Evangelical

Presbyterian

Church of England

and

Wales,

correct?

That's

correct.

And

for.

Anybody interested in learning more about Bethel Presbyterian Church in Cardiff, Wales,

go to BethelPCR .org .uk.

That's BethelPCR .org .uk.

And you are going to be speaking, as we said earlier, at the Banner of Truth U .S.

Ministers Conference, which is coming up very soon, and there are at least two Welshmen there

speaking.

Jeff Thomas, the former pastor of Alfred Place Baptist Church in Aberystwyth, Wales.

Did I pronounce Aberystwyth correctly?

That is absolutely right.

And in addition to Jeff Thomas and Mark Johnston, Joel Beakey, who's

been on this program as well, and Mark Vandewaard and

Jonathan Master.

Jonathan Master is actually going to be our guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio this coming Wednesday,

not the day after tomorrow, but a week from this Wednesday, I should say, on May 10th.

And Carlton Wynn is speaking, and Ian Hamilton is speaking.

And to register, I would register very soon because I think that they are running out of room.

We're quickly approaching the date of the event.

Go to BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org, then click on

Events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

But.

You

just

completed

a U

.K.

Ministers

Conference

for

Banner

of

Truth,

did

you

not?

And

what

should.

Those who are either already registered or interested in attending the U .S. Ministers

Conference, what should we be expecting at this conference?

The theme is going to be the same.

Theme

as

we

had

at

one

of

his

conferences.

And

I

want

to

thank

Pat

Daly

over

at

the

United

States.

Headquarters of Banner of Truth, which is just a few blocks from where I'm sitting right now, in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I want to thank him for arranging my registration for

my very first Banner of Truth Ministers Conference.

I've never been to one of the Banner of Truth conferences before, although I keep hearing rave reviews every

year, which is why I aggressively approached Pat this year and said

I really would love to attend this conference.

Even though I am not a minister, I speak with ministers nearly every single day on Iron Trip and Zion Radio,

and Pat was graciously willing to allow me to attend this

conference.

And I'm looking forward to meeting many of you who are listening, God willing, Tuesday, May

30th through Thursday, June 1st, in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, at the Elizabethtown

College.

And again, the website to register is banneroftruth .org.

Banneroftruth .org, and click on Events, and then click on 2017 U .S.

Ministers Conference.

I look forward to reaching out to Jeff Thomas as

he is still facing the grief of losing his beloved

bride.

I lost my beloved bride in 2011, and I'm still, at times,

having difficulty with grief and depression.

But I know that my precious wife is with our Savior for eternity,

and it will be a good time of fellowshipping, I'm sure, with

Jeff as a fellow mourner who has lost his better half.

And of course, I'll look forward to fellowshipping with you too, brother, and all the other men

as the Lord gives opportunity while I'm there.

And once again, go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and then click on 2017 U .S.

Ministers Conference.

We're going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Pastor Mark G.

Johnston, on the theme of his book, You in Your Small Corner, The Elusive

Dream of Evangelical Unity, which is a book he has written for Christian -focused publications, if you'd

like to join us on the air with a question on that theme, or of course, you could ask a question on any general

theme regarding the Reformed faith and regarding the Banner of Truth Ministers Conference, our

email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Pastor Mark G. Johnston after these messages.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to.

Tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern

Time on WLIE Radio, www

.wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Pastor Mark

G. Johnston, minister of Bethel Presbyterian Church in Cardiff, Wales, a

trustee of the Banner of Truth Trust, and he is the author of a number of books, including

the one we are addressing today, published by Christian Focus Publications in the UK,

You in Your Small Corner, the Elusive Dream of Evangelical Unity.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson

at gmail .com, and we have somebody who's sending you their greetings from

Aberystwyth, Wales, Mike Iliff, or Iliff, I don't know how to pronounce that, I -L -I -F -F.

Mike Iliff.

Yes, he has been a listener to Iron Trip and Zion for quite a while, and he, as

I was saying before the break about Jeff Thomas and I both having lost our precious brides

who have gone home to be with the Lord, Mike Iliff also shares that same sorrow, as not

long ago he lost his bride, and I'm delighted that he is listening today.

We have also quite a number of listeners waiting to have their questions

asked and answered.

We have Patty in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and

she asks, why do you think Christians, especially those in the Reformed

camp, seem more worried about their fellow believers knowing the five points of Calvinism

and all other doctrine than they are their neighbor's salvation?

Is doctrine that important?

That's

a

very

good

question,

and

who

preach

a

message

to

Reformed

churches.

Thank you, Patty, and you have won a free copy of the book that we are discussing, You in Your Small Corner,

the Elusive Dream of Evangelical Unity, compliments of our friends

at Christian Focus Publications in the United Kingdom, and thanks to our friends at

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service here in Pennsylvania, CVBBS .com,

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BBS .com, for shipping out the

books and Bibles and everything else that our listeners win when they submit questions.

By the way, to touch on Patty's question, I know this

personally, having worked in Christian media since the mid

-1980s, I know that one of the reasons why I do a lot of

talking about Calvinism and Reformed theology amongst other Christians is because these things are so

greatly hated today, although I must say that I'm sure you would agree there seems

to be an upswing in recent years, a rise in popularity of the Reformed

faith, and sometimes that manifests itself in some things that we would actually,

who have more of a historic understanding of Calvinism, have problems with in some level or another.

But I have found myself, since I've been in the Christian media

industry for so long, that I find myself having to

explain what these things are, these doctrines of sovereign grace, the doctrines of Reformed

theology, because they are so often slandered, caricatured,

and distorted.

And when I am speaking, especially with leaders who are talking to

their own congregations and perhaps misleading them, I am urgently trying to rectify the

slander, albeit often unconscious slander, that is going on in

the world.

And it is an important.

Thing.

These

are

important

truths,

are they

not?

And

this

book

that

you

have

written,

I

think,.

Is a very valuable subject and much -needed subject to be addressed, because

I think that there are two things simultaneously going on within Christendom.

You have two polar opposite things going on.

You have, on the one hand, a remnant of people who,

I think, perhaps today are in the minority, who are

Pharisaic, sectarian, perhaps even bordering on cultic, or even crossing the

border of being cultic, that only believe that their

group is saved, that they are the true followers of Christ,

everybody else is either lost or stupid.

And therefore, very often you have little interaction or fellowship or

unity between those groups and those outside of their circles

of influence and so on.

Then you have, I think, the much more broader, the much broader, I should say, pardon the poor grammar,

the much broader or more prevalent problem today, perhaps you would disagree with this, but

the more prevalent problem today is those striving for unity at any price, unity

at the cost of truth.

More and more churches are caving into the pressures of the modern ecumenical movement, and

they're welcoming Roman Catholics and those of aberrant

cultic sects and so on within their embrace of fellowship.

And now I understand, to clarify what I mean, I believe that

there are many Roman Catholics who will be in heaven, but I believe that they will be in heaven in spite of

Rome's dogmas on justification and salvation and other things.

But would you agree that this seems to be the more prevalent problem of those

who are striving for unity at any cost?

In many ways, that was...

Yes, in fact, unlike the common stereotype of

Calvinists and Calvinism and Reformed theology, I have seen such a

wonderful uniting influence that these doctrines have

amongst of varying denominations who have strong disagreement on other

issues, like for instance the Banner of Truth Conference itself and the Banner of Truth Publishing Ministry

have brought into print the works of Baptists, Presbyterians, Calvinist

Methodists, Congregationalists and others who embrace these

precious truths.

They do have a very powerful unifying factor, do they not?

Absolutely.

Again, one of the points I make in the book...

And we have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please always remember to give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

And I want to remind all of our listeners who are patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered

already, I will get to each and every one of you as God permits during the course of the

remaining hour of this program.

So we look forward to hearing from more of you if we have time to include you, and we'll be right back,

God willing, after these messages with more of Pastor Mark G. Johnston on Evangelical Unity.

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May 30th through June 1st, the United States Ministers Conference

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and as we were saying before, the speakers at this conference include Joel Beeky, Jeff

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All right, we're going to go to some of our listener questions for Mark G. Johnston

regarding evangelical unity, and let's see, we have

Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire, who has a question for you, Pastor Mark,

and I have to enlarge Jerry's typeface on his email because it's very small.

Let's see, it says here, would you say that one weakness in the way the evangelical church seeks

unity is that they often minimize truth by being agnostic about

different doctrines or seeing almost all doctrines as unimportant rather than holding fast to

truth but also being characterized by the fruit of the Spirit?

In other words, rather than viewing doctrines like predestination or believer's baptism as unimportant or

unknowable and therefore are not discussed for the sake of unity, isn't it better to

search the scriptures faithfully and teach all of what they say but to have our

conversations and disagreements marked by gentleness, kindness, and love?

Excellent.

We already touched on it to a degree, but he is basically saying that we shouldn't stop disagreeing, but we should

change the way perhaps.

The

way that

we disagree.

I

think

we may have

lost our

guest.

Are you

there,

Brother Johnston?

We're going to have to go to a break right now because I believe we have lost our guest, Pastor Mark G. Johnston,

and I am going to go to a commercial break, and hopefully we will have Pastor Johnston

back on the line.

For those of you who would like to join us on the air with questions of your own, our email address

is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Pastor Mark G. Johnston.

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Well, there's nothing like severing unity, like being disconnected during a phone conversation with a

brother from across the other side of the country, of the world, I should say.

But we have back with us Pastor Mark G. Johnston, and sorry about that.

I don't know what happened,.

Pastor,

but we

thank

God

that

you're

back

on

the

program.

Well,

thank

you,

Jerry, from.

Charlestown, New Hampshire, and we ask for your full mailing address because you have

also run, one, a free copy of You in Your Small Corner, the Elusive

Dream of Evangelical Unity by our guest today, Pastor Mark G. Johnston, and we

thank Christian Focus Publications for donating these books today that we are giving away, and we

also thank our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping them out.

So look out for a package from CV for Cumberland Valley, bbs

for biblebookservice .com.

CVbbs .com will be on the shipping label, the return address, so keep

your eye open for that, and thank you very much for contributing with your question to

today's program, Jerry.

We also have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says,

one of the things that disturbs me most about the modern ecumenical movement is that

now even many who are professedly reformed are seemingly

softening their views against the wickedness of homosexuality.

While I fully understand that we must evangelize those who are practicing this sin

with more love and compassion and with a view that their souls,

their never -dying souls, need to be one for Christ, at the same time I fear that

many within evangelicalism who are addressing this issue today are

stripping this sin of the fear of eternal damnation.

If you could comment on it, and I don't know if you agree with my passion

about changing the way that people are viewing this issue, but I believe it is deadly.

Serious.

And

wouldn't

you

say

that

to

soften

the

severity

of

that

sin

is

not

doing

anybody

any.

Favors?

I mean, we are not to make any

kind of wickedness more palatable for someone to continue in their sin.

And one of the things that disturbs me about this issue is that I have always been taught,

as long as I've been a born -again believer, that if somebody is teaching you

something that the church has never believed in 2 ,000 years of its history,

it is with certainty a false teaching.

And one of the things that seems to be taught today is that homosexuality

is a condition that is benign or neutral unless you actually

physically participate in it, and that the desires and so on

have no sinful import necessarily.

But doesn't the scriptures, or don't the scriptures teach that even the burning in their hearts for one another.

Was a sign of the judgment against them?

Yes, I've interviewed her, yes.

Yes, and during my conversations both on air and off with Rosaria, as

strongly as she wants people to reach out with love and compassion and patience

to those practicing homosexual activity, just as the Presbyterians

and her community reached out to her, she still was very opposed to

placating the people involved in that activity by

giving them a delusion that they are a part of a community that is

very little different from an ethnic group or a nationality, and treating them as if this

is something that they are certainly unable to

escape from for the rest of their lives, that the transforming power of the Holy Spirit cannot

transform them, so they must just remain or be satisfied with remaining

with this state of mind, albeit chaste, and she's opposed to that

kind of thinking in her writing and what she has said on my program.

In other words, that people shouldn't just wave the white flag and say, well, I know that I'm never going to be anything other than

homosexual, I'll just remain chaste though, in order to honor and obey Christ.

That seems to be a diluting of the power of the Holy Ghost.

Would you agree with.

That?

Sure

it

would,

Chris.

We

have a

covering addict

scenario.

I

understand

that, but

what I'm.

Saying is that people will cave in and wave the white flag and say, there

is no hope for change for me, so the only thing that I can hope to do is remain chaste.

That's what I'm talking about.

People who will categorize themselves as a homosexual

Christian, something that's permanent.

In their lives, and it seems to me doubting what the Holy Spirit

can do

to them.

Yes,

I understand

that we are sinners until we enter

glory.

Yes,

I would

agree

with

you very

much on

that.

I guess.

My main complaint that I'm trying to set forth is the fact that there

are many who are saying, it's okay, there's nothing wrong with having

these desires, and they should remain content in the fact that they will always have them as

long as they're chaste.

That's really what my point is.

We're going to our final break right now.

It's going to be a briefer one than normal, but if you'd like to join us on the air, now is the time to do so before we run out of time.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com is our address.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll.

Be right back.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

Welcome back.

This.

Is Chris Arnzen, and we are now in our final 25 minutes or so of our interview with

Mark Johnston, a pastor of the Bethel Presbyterian Church in Cardiff, Wales.

We are discussing his book, You in Your Small Corner, the Elusive Dream of Evangelical Unity.

And our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com if you have a question, and please give us at least your first name, city and

state and country of residence if you're outside the USA.

We have Daniel in Bakersfield, California, who says,.

My question for Mark Johnston is, with the 500th anniversary of the Reformation coming up, many believe that

the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants should unify under the banner of ecumenism.

I've heard liberal denominations claim that we have nothing to protest anymore.

How do we answer people who make such claims?

And he has a second question that I'll go to after you address that.

Well, and in fact, it's not even only sadly liberal churches that are saying the Reformation is

over.

There are professedly conservative churches and denominations making the same claim because of the

fact that Roman Catholics share our abhorrence to

abortion and same -sex marriage and things like that.

But.

If you

could

comment.

And

Daniel

in

Bakersfield,

California,

his

second

question

is

very much.

Like a question that we have from our listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia,

who says, What, if any, kinds of unity should we seek with individuals and faith traditions with whom

we disagree on primary doctrinal positions?

And then also Daniel in Bakersfield says, Where do we draw the line with churches

we do not unify with?

So, I mean, they're both basically asking for, I guess, a list of things that you would think

are primary things that should be on a litmus test for our

true biblical ecumenism with another group, and also those things that would say,

If you do not accept these elements, I'm sorry, you cannot cross over this

wall to join us because you are still in the category of

lost.

Or

apostate

or false

religion.

Well,

thank you,

both

of

you,

Joe

in

Slovenia

and

Daniel.

In Bakersfield, California, for your questions.

And you are both getting a free copy of this book we have been addressing, You in Your Small Corner, the

Elusive Dream of Evangelical Unity, by our guest, Pastor Mark G. Johnston,

complements of Christian -focused publications in the United Kingdom, and also compliments of

CVBBS .com, CV for Crumble and Valley, BBS for

BibleBookService .com, who will be shipping those books out to you at no cost to you

and at no cost to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings of CVBBS .com for being faithful supporters

of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who

says, I hear from some Reformed scholars, pastors, and evangelists

that Arminianism is a false gospel.

I hear from others who are also Reformed that say, although Arminianism is deeply

flawed, that it has enough of the true gospel within its proclamation

that they could be considered.

Our

brothers

in

Christ.

How do

you

address

this

issue?

Yes,

and

George

Whitefield

actually.

Requested before he died that John Wesley preach at his funeral, and he did.

That's correct.

And one thing that seems to be not very well known amongst

Reformed people is that there was a deep friendship and

great ecumenism between John Gill, the predecessor of Charles

Spurgeon at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London,

with a Seventh -day Baptist pastor, Samuel Stennett.

Samuel Stennett was a hymn writer as well, although they were both Calvinists.

Even though they disagreed on the day of the Sabbath, not only

did they have a great friendship, they also exchanged pulpits, and their

disagreements on the day of the Sabbath actually aided in their ability to exchange pulpits.

And Samuel Stennett was also one of those who preached at the funeral of John Gill.

I actually have a printed copy of the sermon that Samuel Stennett

preached at that John Gill's funeral.

So we should learn lessons from the past from these men that

many of us uphold as heroes, and we want to follow their teaching, but we sometimes

overlook some of the compassion and love and patience and tolerance that they had.

Yep.

And I want to make sure that before we run out of time that you have several minutes

uninterrupted to basically unburden your heart and give our listeners what you most want etched.

On

their

hearts

and

minds.

Now

in

about

a minute's

time,

if

you

could

answer

Mike

from

Aberystwyth.

Wales, who we mentioned earlier, if you could answer his question is, do you see a difference.

Between the U .S. and

the U .K. over

Reformation

distinctives?

I

think

the U .S.

I want to

remind.

Our listeners that the website to register for the U .S. Ministers Conference being held by the

Banner of Truth is banneroftruth .org.

Banneroftruth .org.

Click on events and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

The website for the Bethel Presbyterian Church of Cardiff, Wales

is bethelpcr .org .uk.

Bethelpcr .org .uk.

Thank you so much, Pastor Johnston.

I look forward to having you back on the program soon, and I look forward to having you or sharing fellowship with you, I should say,

in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania for the Banner of Truth Ministers Conference.

Oh, my pleasure, brother.

And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in with questions, and I want you

all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.

Please keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

I look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow for our guests.