June 17, 2004

around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll -free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. So what you're telling me is the publisher is working on finding a book that the publisher already published, and in fact someone in channel already purchased from somebody else, but they can't find it for us to order.

Is that, is that, oh hello everybody, I'm doing my Rush Limbaugh impersonation there. He often comes on talking to those voices in his head, and that's what

I was doing too. Yeah, but the voices in his head don't talk back. Actually, if you're not in your car and you're like listening really carefully and you're in a quiet place, you can sort of hear him through the headphones because he's got those, you know, he doesn't hear well.

And same thing with Barry Young here locally. So sometimes you can hear them, but they don't have the the sonorous tones that you are famous for, and that may someday cause there to be a whole following of you and things like that.

Anyway, so we, um, hi everybody. Those of you who have seen the the blog know that we've been blindsided.

There is a book out that I've been talking about every little while, and every, well not every little while,

I've mentioned it two or three times on the program, Perspectives on Church Governance, Government Actually, Five Views on Church Polity, and my copy, well my two copies.

I didn't get a lot of authors copies this time. I normally try to get enough that I can sort of hand them out and give them to folks.

The church, stuff like that, got two copies and one of them got trashed. So I've only got one copy, but it's out, and one person, who will remain nameless because he's wonky, already purchased his copy from someplace other than Alpha Omega Ministries, and that's very disappointing to us, and, you know, started the day off on the wrong foot, and all the rest of that stuff.

But, you know, that's just, this person is wonky, but I won't mention his name, and that's just how he is.

So anyway, they are already out there. We are trying to get hold of it as quickly as is humanly possible, so that we can put a nice little link up there, just under the, under or above somewhere, the cruise information on the website, and that way you can order it.

And, you know, I realize this is not exactly the most scintillating topic on the planet, okay?

I recognize that books about Mormon temple ceremonies, and conspiracies, and prophecy, and all that kind of stuff, would sell a whole lot more.

There's no question about that. But there isn't really a lot of, this is a fairly unique book, there's not a lot of stuff out there, where you have interaction and defense of various views.

And let's face it, for most folks, you do church the way you do church because it's the way you do church.

I mean, there's not a whole lot more to it. There are very few people I've met who go to a church and embrace its church government because they became convicted through biblical study that this is what you should do.

And so they left where they were and went someplace else. There are some folks, I suppose. But let's face it, for most folks, it's just, well, you know, okay, so maybe our church doesn't really do it the way that I see in Scripture, but it's close enough, and we sort of interpret this this way.

You don't get a whole lot of debates, you don't get a whole lot of strong feeling about things like that.

But I have noticed, the one group that's not the case is when I've raised issues like this with people who are in ministry themselves, especially young pastors in seminary contexts.

And I've thrown out some of the stuff that, you know, certainly would give a challenge to your standard young Southern Baptist, in essence.

And they go, oh, I had never really thought about that before. And boy, that really explains a lot about the struggles

I'm having in the church right now. And, you know, I mean, let's face it, in a lot of Baptist churches, you have deacons who function as elders.

And they become deacons based upon the requirements for a deacon in Scripture, but then when they function as an elder, they can't function as an elder because they don't have the qualifications of an elder because they are actually deacons.

And the result can be very, very bad. And so, you know, it's important.

And then, of course, amongst Reformed folks, and we know that, according to certain people, we shouldn't even use that term unless you, you know, hold certain very, very narrow beliefs.

But amongst the broad Reformed camp, whatever is left of that these days anyways, you have the difference between a

Presbyterian form, you have some Reformed Anglicans, you have, you know, variations on the

Presbyterian form. And so you have a hierarchy there. And that's different than the position that I would hold in regards to a plurality of elders within the local church.

And so the one reason you might want to grab this book especially is because the

Presbyterian position is represented by a well -known

Presbyterian scholar who has written a new systematic theology of the

Christian faith, Dr. Robert Raymond. He is very well -known, undoubtedly the most well -known of the writers,

I'll admit. Sorry, all respects to everybody else. Dr.

Raymond is the only person that I knew in the group when the names arrived and who was involved and so on and so forth.

I just honestly didn't know anybody else. But I did know Robert Raymond. And our interaction, it's not extensive.

When reading someone else's chapter, for example, you only have one response.

One 2 ,500 word response maximum. And so on some of the other presentations,

I think one of them I only managed to scrape together about 600 words because I just didn't feel there was that much to say in response to it.

It just didn't strike me as being compelling enough. But Dr.

Raymond's response, so Dr. Raymond's chapter, I wrote, I used 2 ,498 of 2 ,500 words.

So I went all the way to the max with that. So you'll be able to see a at least somewhat of an interchange, somewhat of an exchange between myself and Dr.

Raymond in regards to the Reformed Baptist versus the

Presbyterian view of church polity. And at least, you know, wherever you end up coming down on that, you'll have some idea of where some of the argumentation is.

One of the presentations has like, was it 155?

Just, I mean, just one chapter. I mean, no, it's more than that. Good night. Here we go.

That's right. 318 footnotes to one of the presentations.

Talk about massive documentation. Far more than, far more than I did.

I actually thought that the the point was to, you know, communicate with a lay audience.

And so there are some differences in the the means of presentation. But I think it'd be worth getting.

And we obviously will be carrying it, Lord willing, once the publisher discovers that they have published it.

Yes. We called, we called this morning. We called the number that was given in the letter that came with my books.

If you'd like to buy more books, here's a number to call. So we call that number. We've never heard of that book.

Is it new? All righty, that's really good.

So anyway, keep looking at the website. I head out of town tomorrow.

I'm back on Long Island, Lord willing, by tomorrow evening. And so that will will result in a slowdown in blog posting and things like that.

But keep an eye on the right hand column. We call it the ad column. They're on the website where you currently can buy the

Great Debate 9. You can learn about the cruise. And don't forget, for you procrastinators, and I know you're out there, there's somebody sitting there right now who has said, you know what?

I'm going. I want to see the debate. I want to hear the conference. I want to go on the cruise.

I'm going. And you have yet to click on the link. You have yet to get in touch with Michael Fallon.

You're putting it off. And today is the 17th of June.

And you've gone, you know, what can I say? The low rates, the early bird rates have been extended to the end of June.

And so I'll just take care of it. I got plenty of time. And there's somebody sitting out there. I'm going to talk to you.

You're going to email me. You're coming to channel. I want to go, but I can't go because I waited until July 4th.

The rates were up. And you're just going to be whining. And I'm going to go, so you were just working 48 hours a day through June 30th, and you just couldn't do it, right?

And so just don't put it off. Get it done now. And so on and so forth.

You can also get a book there we haven't mentioned for a long, long time called Debating Calvinism, Five Points, Two Views.

I'm just sort of going down the thing here. The Lord of Glory, excellent. Bible works, six. The Greg Stafford debate.

Did Mary have other children? Oh, that was fun. And so on and so forth. So take a look at the ad column.

Sometimes that just disappears from your thinking. I think we ought to change the color of the background of the ad column.

I almost did it myself, but I decided not to because it was taking too long. But I think we ought to make it match.

There we go. With the rest. It's just too yellow. I know it's the same color as the

Alpha Omega Ministries, but I think it should be one of the other colors, one of the lighter blue colors. Anyhow, that's another here and another there.

877 -753 -3341. Just as I was, well,

I leave tomorrow and so you know what happens? I get all the edits for the

Sola Scriptura book last night. So all the stuff where the editor's saying, what's the reference to this?

Could we put this in? And I'm trying to get everything ready to leave tomorrow and trying to do that.

And so I'm just like really massively stressed out because I'm going to be up till the crack of dawn just trying to get ready to leave.

And then you're all tired when you travel. And so I'm not a happy camper about that. And it's just how it always works.

There's never a convenient time, I guess. But that's just sort of how it has happened today. And so trying to get that done, at least

I'm now seeing some movement on that. It's been a little bit of a concern to me because it's supposed to be out in a not too long period of time before it comes out.

And it's supposed to be in October. And who knows? Maybe it'll be a little early too. Maybe it could be late September.

I don't know. But we'll probably have a little more lead on that one and probably be taking pre -orders and things like that because that's an important book.

But trying to get all that stuff taken care of. And so we're inviting you to participate in the program today.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. And I got a couple of emails.

That's what I was saying. I knew there was something I was saying before that. You're going to have a five -hour flight to New York.

You can knock it out then. Knock what out then? The edits? That's the problem, Mr. Centurion bookstore owner type person, is that to do the edits, you have to have your library.

And the library doesn't go on the plane real well. It sort of sits on these shelves here in my office.

And that's what makes it very difficult to do that. See, there's the problem. Let's see.

Oh, I closed my inbox. Why'd I do that? I had just gotten a note. And we're talking 355 p .m.

It starts at 4. So right before the program. And I think what is being said here,

I'm going to interpret, hopefully going to interpret this correctly, is that the folks at the

Reformed Baptist Theological Review are going to be posting a portion of my article on the

New Covenant. I have a two -part article coming out in the Reformed Baptist Theological Review. The first 11 ,000 words is exegesis.

The last 9 ,000, interaction. Two parts and two different portions. And the July issue of the

RBTR comes out, well, in July. And then in the January edition, it's going to be split into two.

And I think this is saying that there's going to be a portion of that article posted on the

RBTR website. If that is the case, then I will very quickly, as soon as I see it, link to it on the blog so that I can again encourage you to subscribe to the

Reformed Baptist Theological Review at www .rbtr .org. And so you can keep up with that.

I think that this article is one of the more important, especially these days, articles that I've written of late.

So keep an eye open for that. And then we got an email from France.

Yes, from France. It's crossed the wide open seas faster than man had ever crossed them before.

And interestingly enough, we have readers outside the United States. And the current blog war battle over the issue of Saint Francis de

Sales, Francois in French, has really generated a lot of response from our readers.

And that's why I've taken it as far as I have. That's why I've pursued it as far as I have. The reason

I've done so is because I've had a number of people say, you know what, up until this particular exchange, where I've got a concrete person,

I've got an individual who, you know, this is a guy who knowingly knew what he was doing.

This isn't some guy acting in ignorance. This is some guy who knows what

Reformed theology is. He knows what the Gospel is, according to the

Reformation. He knows about justification. He knows about predestination. He gets released from being troubled about predestination while bowing in front of a statue of Mary.

Hello. You know what? I don't know.

It's hard to even express. Just like, that might mean something.

So anyway, here's a guy who hates the Gospel. He is an enemy of the faith. He seeks to destroy the

Gospel. He seeks to bring people into bondage. He specifically attacks the truth of God.

And so to see this man described as a father in the faith. He is our father in the faith.

He's a part of our heritage. To hear a description of how a Reformed Baptist like I cannot appreciate the heroism of Francis de

Sales. Well, you know what? No, I can't. It's sort of like being an American and being asked to appreciate the heroism of the 9 -11 hijackers.

I think that's a direct parallel. I mean, a perfect parallel. I do not appreciate the heroism of the 9 -11 hijackers.

They hated America and they gave their lives attacking America. And so I don't appreciate the heroism, if you want to use that term, of Francis de

Sales either. Because he was attacking something even more important than a nation.

He was attacking the Gospel of Jesus Christ and bringing people into bondage.

Well, we got an email from France. And it said,

James might be interested to know that during the 19th century, so this would be the 1800s, the

Societe Saint -Francois de Sales, the Saint Francis de

Sales Society in English, was the

Catholic organization in charge of converting French Protestants to Romanism.

Okay, someone's telling me it's DeSalle. Okay, that's nice. Is that like Sault Ste. Marie? That's fine.

Let's see. Was the Catholic organization in charge of converting French Protestants to Romanism?

For this, everything was used, including bribing poor Reformed families or having the

Catholic landlords trying to pressure their Protestant farmers to convert. Now, the history in France of persecution of Reformed people is very long.

You read the Institutes. He continues on by saying,

I've had the opportunity to study extensively the history of this group. My mother's family has old Huguenot roots.

No need to say I was shocked to see a so -called Reformed guy quoting and endorsing him.

That's a sad patronage it just shows. And he goes on from there. So that's a very, very interesting viewpoint there as well.

Of course, someone might say, yeah, well, he didn't live then. So you can't exactly hold him accountable for what his followers did long after that.

But I understand that, I suppose. But it has helped a lot of folks to see the difference between defining

Christianity based upon the gospel, the message of what

God has done in Jesus Christ, not just the Lordship of Christ. And, you know, that's the big thing now, too, thanks to N .T.

Wright and to the followers of N .T. Wright. The gospel is the proclamation of the

Lordship of Christ. Well, that's partly true. It's partly true. It's not entirely true, but it's partly true.

And what we're seeing is so many people who glom onto that and go, ah, you know what?

We've missed it all this time. We've missed it because we've been focused on this stuff about individual forgiveness and all the rest of that stuff.

And so we've missed the boat. And what we do is we proclaim the Lordship of Christ.

And it's like, OK. And so all this stuff about the cross and all this stuff about justification and forgiveness and redemption.

Oh, we get to that, too. But you need to keep everything in order here. I don't see exactly how this movement is going to stay cohesive or coherent, either one.

I really don't. What do you say to people? What do you proclaim to people?

What's the message? How do you excite anybody about things like that? I don't know. I don't know.

Anyhow, yeah, I've never figured out how to do that, though. You just grab them by their baptism. And I've not figured out how that works and who can figure out how it works.

I don't know. I agree. It sounds like it might hurt. The first time I heard that was the first thought

I had. I was climbing Squaw Peak, which is now Paestua Peak. And I heard somebody from Auburn Avenue say, grab them by their baptism.

And I'm just like, I was trying to figure out exactly how do you do that? And what does that involve? And can you be arrested for it?

Those were the thoughts that immediately crossed my mind. So anyway, 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.

And that is the phone number that, as I scroll back here, Craig up in that wonderfully independent little state up in the northeastern portion of the

United States is called, called New Hampshire. At least I'm assuming that's what NH means.

Hi, Craig. Hi, how are you doing? Is that where you are? Yes, I am. What is the thing there?

Is it a spring or something? You got to get out? You got to go up this trail? Oh, man,

I was very, very, very young. And I just remember my parents were all excited about driving through New Hampshire.

And we had to stop and go up this trail and look at this spring or something coming out of a mountain.

I forget what it was all. It seems like a long time ago now. But anyhow, I've been there. And it's much different than it is here, where it's currently 103 degrees with 12 % humidity.

It's not 103 in New Hampshire, is it? No, not at all. Okay. What can we do for you,

Craig? I was wondering if you had any plans in the near future to write your own systematic theology?

You've probably been asked that like a million times. I have been asked that a million times. And my response to everyone who asks is, you have to be smart to write a systematic theology.

And I ain't. So that is just so far beyond me.

The problem is, what I might be able to write, if I had enough time, would be something that would be sort of like an apologetic theology.

But a systematic theology, there are just so many areas.

In fact, today, it's sort of sad. There is so much material out there that I don't think anyone can master all of it or can even begin to do so.

But there are certain areas that I just know I'm really, really, badly even portraying it as a systematic theology.

But an apologetic theology that we've focused upon, those elements of faith that are most often under attack, that would be something that would be a little bit more down my alley.

But to be honest with you, the sad thing is, a number of my books that I've written for Bethany House have gone out of print recently.

And the reason is, Bethany was purchased by Baker. Baker doesn't keep a real active backlist like Bethany did.

I mean, you could write for Bethany House back in the 70s and 80s, and what she wrote for them would be in print for 20 years.

Because as long as it was moving at all, they'd keep it in print. And it was perfect for books that had sort of a niche audience.

They were needed, but they weren't real big sellers. Baker's changed all that. So both my youth books,

What's the Dude's the Door? What's the Mutant Microscope? They're gone. All the Mormonism books are gone. And so I don't know what the future holds.

I have two more contracts to fulfill with Bethany House. And then after that,

I really don't know. We'll see. I mean, I have some areas I want to address,

I think need to be addressed. But there's only a certain number of areas where I feel like I can add something that is worthwhile.

And there's all sorts of other areas where I know there's people who know a thousand times more than I do. And I just don't know why they won't address it in such a way that regular old folks can understand what in the world the debate's about.

Yeah. How about a really good discussion on the five points of Calvinism? Because I don't really see a lot of books out there that discuss that as far as being really thorough.

Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a discussion of it. I mean, The Potter's Freedom is fairly lengthy, and I can see why someone would look at debating

Calvinism and go, yeah, well, I could have gotten through with half of that book. But I do have a little book called

God's Sovereign Grace. I'm not sure if you've seen that, which presents the five points. And so I've actually written three books now, if you include

Drawn by the Father, four books specifically on that subject. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Just one of the last questions, if I could ask. Sure. As a Calvinist, one of the things that I find difficult arguing with Arminians about is what they usually say is, if total depravity, if man is unable to respond to the gospel without the aid of the

Holy Spirit, then why does Christ speak in parables? Well, actually, the

Lord himself gave the explanation for that, and it's not, you know, it's funny.

Someone was asking this morning, well, why, if total depravity is true, then why does the

Bible contain all these phrases like, so that they might believe, or so that you might do this, you might do that.

And I said, well, how is the regenerate person, once he's regenerate, supposed to know what he's supposed to do unless the

Bible tells him what to do? And the problem that a lot of people have is they try to take the eternal decree of God, and they try to bring it into a temporal context and create contradictions that shouldn't be created in the first place.

In other words, well, if it's true, this overarching principle, then you wouldn't have

God instructing us in this way. Or in your question, well, if men can't respond anyway, then there's no reason to use a parable, because everybody's just going to sit there and look at him anyhow.

Actually, Jesus is communicating a number of things to the disciples.

For example, you have the issue of his messiahship, which he specifically tries to keep quiet because of the fact of all the misunderstandings of who the messiah is supposed to be and things like that.

And then you have the use of parables, specifically in the teaching of Christ. And he explains it's because these things are to be given to you, not that, well, if I just teach openly, then everyone's going to believe me.

There's no indication that, for example, that Jesus was teaching in parables in John chapter 6 to the 5 ,000.

And yet they, wow, something just happened. And yet, something's going wrong here.

I'm not doing anything, honestly. And yet they do not hear, and they do not respond.

And in fact, Jesus speaks clearly to them in the synagogue Capernaum in John 6.

And when he does so, their response is to reject what he has to say.

And when Jesus explains why they're going to reject what he has to say, he grounds it in the fact that, like in John 8, they don't belong to God.

So it just doesn't follow that, well, he had to do that lest they repent or something like that.

That's part of judgment. I mean, when it is explained in John chapter 12 about God's judgment upon the people of Israel, it's given a context in regards to judgment and so on and so forth.

So I don't see that that follows at all. Can I just ask one last question? Real quick, we'll take a break right after we're done with that one.

Since you deal with book publishers all the time, have you heard of any rumors of people possibly translating

Calvin's facsimile of Job? I can't find a copy of that anywhere as far as it being written in modern

English. I haven't. The foggiest idea. The publishers that I tend to deal with probably wouldn't be doing that kind of thing.

I haven't seen that myself, so I wouldn't have any knowledge of that. Sorry. Okay, thanks a lot. All right, and then come back with Gary in Texas and your phone calls at 877 -753 -3341.

We'll be right back. Right for all who want to better understand the

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You can order your copy of James White's book, Mary, Another Redeemer, at aomin .org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00.

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org,

where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Welcome back to the Dividing Line. I got two edits done during the break. I'm sitting here going, okay, all right, well, why would that be confusing?

Oh, okay, well, here's the reference, you know, and the NIV here says

Aramaic. Well, it's right there in Acts 9. You gotta look these things up.

You know, it takes a long time to do editing stuff. It really does, you know. In fact,

I'm just going to go here and see search versions. I'm using BibleWorks 6 .0.

This is not BibleWorks 4 .0. It's BibleWorks 6 .0, which, amazingly enough, is available through Alpha Omega Ministries, and you too could be using

BibleWorks and Aramaic, and wow, look how fast that is.

Did you see how fast that was? Did everyone out there see how very fast that was? It went by so fast,

I never saw anything. You know, they used to even tell you how long it took. It took 0 .09

seconds. It tells me that down at the bottom of the screen. Isn't that impressive? Yes, okay, well,

Acts 26 .14 and Acts 22 .2. Those are the references.

Acts 22 .2 and 26 .14. What are you talking about? I'm just trying to help the folks out back at Bethany House get this thing right.

That's what I'm trying to do here, and oh, only one more to do after this. I will be able to pack my clothes. I'm not going to be homeless while I'm in New York.

It's going to be great. All right, 877 -756 -9000. Let's go down to Texas and talk with Gary.

Hi, Gary. Hey, Dr. White. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. How's everything there?

Oh, it's just fine. I'm a little bit on the busy side.

We've got some fresh cattle in. We've got to get them all rounded up and into the corral before the night comes.

It's a busy time here. You know what I mean? You know what they say about Texas, don't you? I've heard a lot of things about Texas.

It's as much a state of mind as it is a state of the union. There you go. Anyhow, what can we do for you?

Well, first of all, before we get to the meat of everything, I wanted to ask you about your straight gate. It hasn't been updated since April 15th.

Well, first of all, it ain't ours. That's the problem. That's not our website. We have lost all contact with straightgate .com.

I've mentioned this on The Dividing Line and on my blog. We are currently archiving recent programs through the very same source by which you're listening to this.

That is our good friend Pete up in Nova Scotia. There will not be any more updating at Straightgate because we can't get ahold of anybody.

We can't post anything there and can't do anything about it. We will put recent programs, somehow make room so people can listen to that.

Then they'll be available as we update the MP3 archive for purchase for a whopping $1.

That's the best we'll be able to do. Okay. All righty. What I was really calling about,

Dr. Wild, I've been busy the past couple of months studying plethorism. I was wondering if you had a chance to look at it and see what your viewpoints are, or if you were supportive of it.

Well, it depends on what you call plethorism, of course. That term has lots of meanings.

So what do you mean by it? Well, just the viewpoints of how to approach the

Bible, you know, studying it in the Hebrew and studying it, you know, that revelations was actually fulfilled in 70

AD. Well, if you're talking about the historic meaning of the word, and that is that there are elements of New Testament prophecy that are fulfilled in AD 70, then almost every eschatological viewpoint accepts that and functions upon that, except for probably dispensational premillennialism.

If you mean by plethorism, what would be called hyper -plethorism, which says that all future prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70, that the eternal state was brought into existence in AD 70, the resurrection took place in AD 70, that Christ returned in AD 70, etc.,

etc., etc., then that is rank heresy, and it is a tremendously troubling belief that is being promoted.

In fact, there is a book that just came out, and I'm going to try to turn things around here, and all right,

I can't find it right now, unfortunately. There's a book just came out, Keith Matheson edited it, and I unfortunately can't get my microphone to turn far enough to where I can see where it went over here, but it's supposed to be right behind me.

Let's see if this is it. Nope, that's not it. Did you ever have a chance to read the book, the Parousia, by Dale Russell?

No, I'm familiar with it, and it's one of the key texts that the hyper -preterists use and try to promote their system in.

It's referred to frequently by the authors in the new Keith Matheson work, and dealt with in there, and so that's what

I would direct folks to at the moment. It was interesting, I got a note from the Preterist Archive, one of the leading

Preterists, and I don't know how I got on their email list, but they were asking their supporters to buy the new

Matheson book from them, and then help them to respond to it. I forwarded that note off to Keith, and I said, you know, when your opponents are selling your book so as to ask their supporters to help them to respond to it, that normally means you did a fairly decent job, and so that's what is going on at the moment.

There's a lot of material starting to come out now. It took a little while, I think, for people to start really producing it, but there's three or four books out now that are providing a good, meaningful response to it in regards to the fundamental hermeneutical error of the system, and in dialoguing with some hyper -Preterists over the past year or so, it truly bothered me that no matter what you came up with, no matter what you addressed, there was always, because of the ultimate acceptance of an eschatological viewpoint, it says, look, the timing issue here is how you must interpret everything else in the

New Testament in light of accepting the necessity of AD 70, and so you could talk about anything.

You could go to Titus chapter 2. You could talk about the church. You could talk about anything, and it would all have to be interpreted in light of that particular issue, and the results, as you're probably aware, in some forms of hyper -Preterism have been a denial of the resurrection body of Jesus Christ and just all sorts of outrageous results from that.

Well, I haven't seen any of that from like John Anderson and Don K. Preston and Gary DeMar. Well, Gary DeMar is one of the people who writes in the

Matheson book against hyper -Preterism. Oh, okay. He writes against it. Okay.

So, you may be talking about a different viewpoint or perspective.

I don't know, but he writes against it in there, so he wouldn't be one of those folks. What I found most amazing, Dr. White, was in 70

AD, was I think this may be true, is that not the physical kingdom, but he came back in the spiritual, and the spiritual kingdom was given.

Well, you see, the problem with attaching everything to 70

AD is that you end up looking at the New Testament. You end up looking at what the blessed hope was.

You end up looking at what the church was, and the only way to understand is to say, well, that was just for, well, in essence, maybe two or three decades.

All this revelation is given by God, and it's only relevant for two or three decades, and then

God doesn't give his people a single bit of guidance for the rest of eternity.

You don't think the Bible, if it's true from cover to cover, could be a guidebook for us

Christians to pattern our lives by on a daily basis? Well, just think about it for a moment. Once you accept the hyper -Preterist hermeneutic, and use that to say, well, for example, when

Paul writes to Titus, and he talks about looking for the great hope and appearing of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, he only means that for the next 20 years.

That's only going to be relevant for two decades at the max. Once you buy into that, why do you not then apply that to everything else?

I mean, if it's relevant to one part of a sentence where you say, oh, well, we're not looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our great

God and Savior, Jesus Christ, because that took place in AD 70, then why is anything else in that sentence likewise still relevant now?

Why does God give all this revelation as to how the church is to worship, and how the church is to be organized, and what the church is to believe, and what the church is to do, when it's only for less than 20 years?

And then after that, we don't know, because everything changes. The eternal state is brought into existence, and we're not given any way of knowing what was only relevant then, and what is actually relevant now.

That's why these hyper -preterist writers can't agree with one another, because there's no hermeneutic that can tell them what part of the

Bible is still relevant. It's all up in the air. None of these people, when there was a group of young folks here locally that got into it for a while,

I guess most of them are getting out of it, at least I hope so, but when I would try to talk with any of them, none of them had the same perspective.

There's all sorts of different viewpoints, and it's like, well, tell me, give me something clear, whereby

I can understand what is still relevant, and what still isn't relevant. I mean, is the church still relevant?

Are elders still relevant? Is, you know, we're only to have the Lord's Supper until the Lord returns. Do we still have the

Lord's Supper? Why give all this revelation? We have 1 ,500 years the

Old Testament is being written, and then we have 20 years for the New Testament, and we have nothing given to us after that.

How are we supposed to know? I could never get a straight answer from anybody. I couldn't get a straight answer, and I don't think there is an answer, because that's the problem.

So, I direct you to the Matheson book. It's not my strongest area, but I started getting into it just a little bit, because it's like, whoa, hermeneutically here, textually here, exegetically here, where are you folks getting this stuff?

How can you be consistent in your exegesis? And I couldn't get any straight answers out of anybody, because it all went back to, well,

I do this because I've accepted this idea that says that all this has to be fulfilled by then, and you go, wow, think about all the results of that, all the results of that in regards to the church, and to the proclamation of the church, and to the exegesis of the text, and most of the folks

I talked to just had never gotten, they had already bought into it before they ever started thinking about that stuff, and so their response was automatically defensive, rather than, oh, well,

I hadn't thought about that. Hmm, that's, maybe that, maybe I do need to take that into consideration. Well, Dr.

White, would you be interested in maybe going on John Anderson's show and maybe answering some questions, or? Not in the slightest.

Not, you wouldn't be interested? Not in the slightest. Now, I'd get someone who knows what they're talking about to contact Keith Matheson.

He's the one that's edited the main book that has, let's put it this way,

Keith's book on that subject has had the impact upon the hyper -preterists that my book on the

King James Only controversy had on King James Only folks, and I'm not one of those folks who says, oh, yeah,

I got answered everything. I'm not. That's not my area. That's eschatology. Eschatology, everybody knows, I've said for a long, long time, is at the bottom of my rung, so get somebody who can, who's read all that stuff and can take all that stuff apart.

Talk to Keith Matheson. Okay. I bet you, you know. Do you know how to get a hold of Keith? He's at Ligonier Ministries.

Under what? Ligonier Ministries. Okay. R .C. Sproul's, L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R, R .C.

Sproul's Ministry. Okay. All right. Thanks, Dr. White. Okay, thanks for calling. God bless. Bye -bye. Let's talk with, let me roll back here and make sure

I've got the right one. Joseph in Maryland. Hi, Joseph. Hello. Hello, Joseph.

How are you doing? I'm doing all right. Great. I'm calling mainly with kind of some general questions on Reformed Theology.

I've been studying that for a while. I called a couple months ago, but, and I had really been studying it since the debate on the

Hank Hanegraaff show with you and George Bryson, or so -called debate. But anyway, if I could just,

I go to Liberty University. Oh, yes. Uh -huh. And anyways, I'm home for the summer, and I'm, you know, back at my

Southern Baptist Church. Yes. And it's just, it's very interesting. Like, I meet with a couple of the elders every

Tuesday morning for prayer. I've done that for a couple years. And so I'll usually, like, bring up a topic here or there, a question every week.

And, you know, so I've been asking some things, and it's, and it's, like, amazing. Like, I mean, my elders, which, of course, of course, it's, you know, they're not really elders and all this, but, you know, when

I'll ask something, like, you know, I'm talking about theology, and they'll just be like, well, it's theology.

I'm like, well, but it does affect, you know, what is the purpose of the church and et cetera. And I see how all that plays in, you know, like, how is it a seeker -friendly church and just, and that, and, you know, and he says, well,

I know what the purpose of the church is, is to be, like, the bride of Christ. And I'm like, okay, you want to unpack that a little bit?

But I'm just, some general questions of how do I, how's a way to present something like that when, how do you kind of go at it when someone is just, because he's reading the scripture, and he's, you know, and he quotes some of the traditional verses and just, you know, the kind of person that reads it straight through, and it's just, it says this, you know, they're not looking at context, they're not, you know, taking that into consideration.

And then also, that part, and then also, you know, what would you recommend, like, to offer someone if they're asking questions?

Because there's some young guys in my church, they want to learn, they want to, they say, well, how come nobody wants to talk about election?

I want to learn about that, you know? And so, like, what are some basic materials? Like, I don't know if the potter's freedom,

I have that, I don't know if that's maybe too technical, or just, you know, what is the key material?

Believe me, I do know what you're talking about, and I, you're quite honestly facing an uphill battle, and the reason that you're facing an uphill battle is because of the fact that, in essence, you know, those young men you're talking about who have an interest in these things, probably including yourself, are frequently looked on as being somewhat of a danger, and they're looked on a little bit as being a danger because, you know, that stuff can divide now, and that stuff can get us off of track of doing what we're supposed to do, and that's why

I enjoy teaching in a Southern Baptist seminary, and I teach systematic theology, and I get to really try to convince some folks that, you know what, what you believe about the nature of God should be consistent with what you believe about the gospel, and that should be consistent with what you believe about the church, and in fact, there's a relationship between what you believe about God, and the gospel, and the church, and the mission of the church, and shocking of all things shocking, the worship of the church, and the form of worship of the church, and it's all related, oh no, and the looks that you get when you can, over time, impress upon folks that they need to think these things through are truly amazing, and I could direct you to folks who would tell you that, man, being forced to recognize that was one of the most revolutionary things that you can possibly introduce to a seminary student, and to a person who's involved in ministry, but the result of that's always the same, and that is it causes problems.

I mean, if you were to go to your theology professors at Liberty, and start throwing a lot of this stuff around, you and I both know what would happen to you, and it would not be necessarily a pleasant thing, and when

I was, you know, I'll take that back. I hope things have changed, but when I was in Lynchburg about four or five years ago,

I had a number of young guys come to me while I was speaking there, and they shared with me some interesting stories about how folks had basically, you know, been told, look, you know, close your mouth about that stuff.

We're not going to have that here, so maybe that's changed. I can hope and pray that it has, but you're up against a hard task.

Someone just mentioned, and I do recall this, that there is a booklet or a link at founders .org

that talks about basically what you're asking, and gives some suggestions as to how you can not so much start a movement at your church, as it is to pray that God would, in fact, give the leaders of your church a zeal and a passion to be consistent in their teaching and their preaching, rather than just going with the flow, going with the program, maintaining the status quo, and obviously, for you yourself individually, the only way you can really do that is by consistently,

A, living consistent with the profession of faith that you make, in other words, demonstrating the relationship these things have to worship and things like that.

You might say, well, that's a little unfair, but that's, you know, if that's what we want to see happen, then we have to be consistent with our own profession.

I don't want fairness. I want grace. And, you know, in your teaching, but you see,

I was in that situation, okay? I was at a mega Southern Baptist church, and I was in a position of teaching, and what eventually, quite honest with you, caused me to leave that church was the tremendous stress that I felt standing before a group, teaching, and not knowing whether what

I was saying was going to be confirmed in the church service it was going to follow, or rejected in the church service it was to follow.

And what that indicated was that at that church at that time, sometimes you'd get some really great preaching that would somewhat inadvertently nail home some great points.

But two weeks later, you might have what was said two weeks earlier completely contradicted. There was no consistency whatsoever.

And eventually, especially doing what I was doing, it required me to have a harmony and a consistency between myself and what was being preached in the church that I was at.

Yeah, I was the same preacher preaching both, that's true. And that's why we ended up in 1989 at the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and the consistency has always been. In fact, just last night, we celebrated the 30th year anniversary of the ministry of the one, my fellow elder there,

Don Fry, 30 years in one church. And as you probably know, that's pretty unusual in Southern Baptist circles.

Of course, we're a Reformed Baptist church, so it's not as unusual, but still 30 years is a tremendous blessing.

So anyway, you've really got to keep your eye on the ball, and you've really got to keep your eye focused upon what

God would have you to do. And really, you need to be Job.

You need to have a patience level. At the same time, you stay where you are until God just does something massively big to convince you that you need to be someplace else.

And pray for those men, even if they don't show a real interest in those things, you just pray for them.

You bend over backwards to show them Christian love and deference. And right up to the point where, in essence, you are up to the point where you're asked to do something against your conscience, against the

Word of God. Up until that point, you just do everything you can to maintain the... Somebody kicked that.

I will take care of it. If someone could go into the channels and let them know that Webulight is back,

I'd appreciate it. Anyways, that has something to do with the channel. It has nothing to do with me.

Sorry about that. And so, it's just something you see taking place in the channel.

That's really the only way you can approach it. And it's difficult, and I would have people around you who can encourage you.

Feel free to utilize us as encouragement when things come up and you have questions.

Feel free to do so. But press forward. It's frequently a very long process.

It truly is. And it takes a lot of patience. Now, I'm 25. I'm going into ministry.

I finished my undergrad in one more year. And actually, I'm hoping for an internship with Alpha Omega next summer.

I didn't know we had that program. What's that? I didn't know we had a program like that. Well, I'm hoping to sell one.

Oh, I see. But maybe you could tell me. This might help a lot of young people out there if they're studying, but where do

I go for my seminary education? I want to put in the time.

I want to be solid. I want to study. I'm starting my Greek this fall. But where do

I go? Well, with the music in the background, maybe we could pick up with that on the next dividing line.

And feel free to drop us a line. Maybe I can correspond with you. And we can talk a little bit about that.

It's a good subject. We've talked about seminaries in the program before. We'll do it again in the future. Thanks for your call.

God bless you. Keep up the good work. Keep up the ministry, folks. We're going to be gone for a while because we're heading back to New York.

We'll see you the next time on The Dividing Line. God bless. Phoenix, Arizona, 85069.

You can also find us on the worldwide web at aomin .org. That's A -O -M -I -N dot

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