8 Reasons to Leave the SBC

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We are going to talk about the Southern Baptist Convention for one, hopefully last time, for a while at least.

We'll see.

I did put out, by the way, a message to the head of the Conservative Baptist Network. If they wanna make the argument that Southern Baptists should stay in the convention, my platform is open to them and I wouldn't mind doing an interview on that.

But today we're gonna have a shorter podcast, I think, and I'm just gonna give you the opposite side, eight reasons to leave the Southern Baptist Convention. And this is the culmination of my own thoughts over the last few days.

It's no small thing. You have a president of the convention who has co-preached sermons with his wife against what the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 says. And some of you listening, maybe your denomination is okay with that, but the Southern Baptists are not.

And you have someone who's doing that. You have someone who, up until yesterday morning, had on their church website an unorthodox view of the Trinity, partialism. That is also just very interesting. And they changed it when it was called out with no explanation.

And someone, of course, who is woke. And someone had sent me something I neglected to mention that Ed Litton had signed a statement. You've probably seen so many of these statements you're getting sick of them, but it was a call to repentance for the SBC, for its racism, et cetera.

I think it might've originated with Dwight McKissick, who's more of a progressive social justice advocate in the Southern Baptist Convention, but Ed Litton signed it. Anyway, there's a lot of examples of that kind of thing.

And this is the man now running the ship. And this is just, not only that, but what happened in the executive committee, the purge of conservatives there, what happened with some of the resolutions, what happened with some of the floor motions.

This is just causing a lot of people to say, what's the use? Why expend all this energy and resources and time to even drive up to the convention to try to save this thing when this is probably the highest turnout we will ever have in recent years for conservatives.

And we didn't get to attain any of the goals that we had. So I want to address this all. And I do know that there is an argument for staying in that some people wanna give, but this is my honest opinion.

And again, I'm willing to give the platform to someone who has some kind of name recognition and wants people to stay in. I just don't think it's realistic. I think it's kind of a pipe dream, to be honest with you.

And I'm open to other information, but I'm gonna give you, I think, what I'd say is a strong, solid case for leaving the convention, based on wisdom, based on biblical principles, based on just practicality, really.

And so we're gonna go through that. I wanted to mention, yesterday we had, it was kind of maybe a heavier episode, I don't know, about what happened. Can the Southern Baptist Convention be recovered because of what happened at SBC 2021?

And I was thinking about it, and I did not grow up in a Southern Baptist church. I think I had said, and I don't even know, I've done so many podcasts in the last few days, one of them, I had said, my family history traces back to the beginnings of the convention.

My dad was the last one to be part of a Southern Baptist church, and then he left. He actually attended John MacArthur's church that he pastors in the, I guess it would have been the 80s at that time.

And this is right when the controversy over the conservative resurgence was happening, and this is the time when my dad left, and we were never part of a Southern Baptist church. For a little while, I had taught a Southern Baptist college career group at a local church that was Southern Baptist, small church in upstate New York.

And I was just thinking, though, about the church I grew up in, because I had read you this, for those who don't know, I had read a letter, an open letter from 1995 on one of the first statements that I think started down this trail of let's apologize for racism, let's make our ancestors the scapegoats for things, and let's, that kind of thing.

It started in 1995, more or less, and there was an open letter opposing it, and one of the things the individual had said, I think they were from Louisiana, was that in their church, they were all happy to be Southerners, they were diverse, they didn't have the kinds of strife that the Southern Baptists talk about having, and he had left the Southern Baptist Convention and gone to this particular church.

And I was thinking, the unity, I think there is a regional unity, loving your own, loving your own place, loving your own people, I think that's natural for people, but there's a greater unity, and I didn't mention it in the podcast before, but I grew up in upstate New York, it's about an hour and a half, two hours north of New York City.

Most of my growing up, at least, was there, and I, the vast majority of it, I was part of the same church, and a lot of people, I'd say, the church went through different phases. IBM was in the area, IBM left, and I think if everyone stayed at the church who had gone through there at various times, you would have a megachurch by now, but it's a very transitive area.

And especially after IBM left, a lot of the people that were part of the church, I mean, it's always been this way to some extent, but they were commuters to New York City. They did not have the same localist tendencies that maybe this church in Louisiana I described had.

There's an international vibe, there's people coming from other countries to work in New York City that would then settle in the area where I grew up, and they would come to the church. And it's the most diverse church I've ever been in.

I've been a member at four different churches, and I've attended many more, and I've never been in a church more diverse than the one that I grew up at. And it was, I mean, they talk a lot about urban this and urban that in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Well, these were a lot of people from New York City that attended. A lot of them were commuters. Like I said, I think at some points, it's been half the church, pretty much, that's relying on commuting to New York City.

And the potlucks, it wasn't like that when I was very young, but over time, especially after 9 -11, when people moved up more, the potlucks became more diverse as far as food is concerned, which is great if you love international cuisine and a lot of different food there.

And the people seem to love each other for the most part. There seems to be a unity, there seems to be a friendliness. I haven't even experienced it in a lot of other places. And the unity is in the gospel and that shared identity in Christ.

That's all you need. You don't even need a regional identity to have a church. It is very helpful for stability in a social context and in society to have certain, you do obviously need certain social mores, manners, these kinds of things.

Offense is caused when there's different customs that are locking heads and stuff. But the thing is, if you're humble, if you're a humble person and you're willing to be corrected and you're willing not to take offense when someone's ignorant, you speak the same language, you can communicate, it's not a problem really.

And you work through things. And that's what marks a Christian, is love for one another, love for the body. And this is one of the things that I think the Southern Baptist Convention is just missing. All these efforts at diversity, equity, inclusion, all the social justice stuff, the mechanisms by which, social justice is the mechanisms by which they try to achieve these ends,.

Which is just,.

They're taking descriptive passages from Revelation. The seminaries all did this yesterday, from what I understand. All these descriptive passages about every tribe, tongue, and nation, Revelation seven, Revelation six and seven, I guess.

And then making this, the scene in heaven to be some mandate for them to be diverse. And it's just not the case. That's a description of what Christ has done. It's not a prescription for what churches should be doing now.

We should be open to everyone who has the gospel, who believes in the teachings of the church, and is willing to fellowship. Why is that so complicated? That's all that I really saw modeled when I was younger, is just that openness to anyone who has the same belief coming to church.

And it grew because of the gospel, not because of some extra social justice measure. And the Southern Baptist Convention is obsessed right now with these extra measures. And it's not producing the diversity they think they want.

What it's doing is it's bringing in social justice advocates. And they're the kind of quote unquote minorities that they're platforming that are not the Voddiebockums of the world. It's not the minorities who are aligned in biblical orthodoxy.

It's the ones who wanna promote social justice. This is even part of, if you go to Southeastern, where I went to seminary, or at least it was, part of the kingdom diversity scholarship when you sign up, because someone who qualified for it sent me the screenshots.

It's not enough to just be a minority. You have to show them how you've promoted diversity in your life. You have to be an activist. That's what they're looking for. And that's what they're getting. And it is much better to get diversity naturally through unity in Christ, because Christ is calling all kinds of people, not artificially trying to create it through some social justice mechanism, which only is going to pretty much produce a bunch of activists coming into your denomination, welcoming them in, and then they'll destroy it.

And that's what you see happening, is as it gets more, quote unquote, diverse, the numbers of baptisms, the numbers of church plants go down. And if you don't think God's judging the Southern Baptist Convention, I don't know what you think judgment from God would look like.

That's a good question to probably ask yourself. What would judgment from God look like when we've doubled the budget in NAM and church plants have decreased by half over the last 10 years? Now, I wanted to, before we get into the eight reasons to leave the Southern Baptist Convention, I wanna let you know two things.

Number one, this slideshow will be on Patreon. So if you are a Patreon subscriber, if you support this work, and it could be as little as five bucks a month if you're just helping me write the book that I'm writing now, travel, consult with people, do these podcasts, even make documentaries, that kind of thing.

I mean, there's so many things. I feel like I got my hands in so many different things right now, but if you wanna help with those things, because they are making a difference on local levels across the country, then you do get access to the slideshows, and you get access to me as well.

I'm so bad, I hardly ever mention this kind of stuff. I don't like to advertise that, but I do wanna at least mention it every now and then. For those who do want to email back and forth with me, I do try to respond as best I can, but I can't always.

And one of the sure ways to get ahold of me, and I guarantee you'll get ahold of me if you message me through Patreon. So Patreon link is in the info section for this video and podcast, and you can download the slideshow that I'm about to present to you.

And maybe it's something that you wanna present to the leaders of your church. And without me, maybe they don't, I found this often is because of the indoctrination that's happening in the seminaries, because of the 11th commandment.

There's a lot of people who, if they hear what I'm doing, and they've been so tied to the establishment and the SBC, they don't know much about what I've said. They haven't listened to everything, but they automatically will dismiss it because they've been told that I have bad motivations, that I, whatever, the case, whatever, whether it's a lie or it's something true, like I'm critiquing Southern Baptist and that's so bad.

Well, that's true, but it's not bad. They dismiss it. So downloading one of these slideshows can be one of the ways that you get the talking points and you can then go yourself. And that's what I encourage people to do.

Don't reference me. Don't reference another website. Look for the truth. We're not the final authority. The truth is objective. It's out there. You can find it. We're just helping you find it. And then go and you present the case, make the case yourself.

And so this is one tool to help you do that. Now, I wanna also mention this. I got a shipment in today or yesterday of Social Justice Goes to Church. Many of you have this book. It's the first book I wrote last year on this issue of social justice specifically.

If you wanna understand what happened to the Southern Baptist Convention, why it's not pragmatism, I said that yesterday. Some people are saying, oh, it's just pragmatism. It's not pragmatism, guys. So yeah, maybe for some of the older folks who don't understand this stuff, it might be, but there's more to it.

And I think this book is gonna help explain to you what happened. And it's not just the Southern Baptist Convention. It's all kinds of denominations. It's evangelicalism. So this goes back to, it's the history.

It goes back to the 60s and 70s. And it shows you, it traces the influence of the new left radicals, cultural Marxism, et cetera, to today and kind of how we got here. So I hope that that helps you out.

The link is in the info section. There's only gonna be two links in the info section. The slideshow on Patreon, and then the website you can go to to order this book. And I'm only selling it for 15 bucks, and it's an autographed copy.

That's a pretty good deal. So if you don't have the book, or if you wanna give it to your pastor or someone else, might be a good book to have. And it's a great book to have if you are planning on buying the next book I'm writing, which will come out this year, called Christianity and Social Justice.

That's a working title. The Social Justice Goes to Church is a great accompanying book to that. So wanted to mention that. Now, onto the topic at hand. Oh, one more thing. So I put this out there yesterday, and this is, I don't know what you wanna call this, holy mockery, sarcasm.

It's sad, but in these really sad moments, sometimes, I don't know. I don't know if this really even causes you to laugh. I was gonna say it's good to have a good laugh, but some people might laugh, some people might not.

But it gets the point across. And sometimes humor, sometimes sarcasm, actually, is a good way to get the point across. There's sarcasm all throughout scripture used. It is not always right to use sarcasm, but there are occasions I think this is one of them.

The SBC, oh my goodness, racism is everywhere. We must make a 27th statement on it. And this is more, when I say the SBC, it's the SBC elites. It's the people controlling the denomination.

It's the stage.

Also the SBC, we already have a statement on abortion. We reject your resolution. The point being, all these statements against racism every year, more and more and more statements. But hey, when someone wants to do one on abortion, we already have a statement on abortion.

Then they reject it or try to. The SBC, we can't adopt language calling a mother who has an abortion sinful. There's a standing ovation for it. Also the SBC, abusers must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

The SBC, we must stop fighting over politics and have unity. Let's build bridges. Also the SBC, if you're concerned about critical race theory, you don't prioritize the gospel and you're divisive. Let's tear bridges to you down.

This is one of the problems with going after divisive people. When you do that, and there's a place for that. But when you make that the only issue, it's gotta be divided over. It's gotta be like, you're bringing in false teaching.

That's the division. We're going after that. It's what's causing the division. That's the issue. If you just go after division as an end in and of itself, you're the one also causing division because now you're dividing from the dividers.

And that's just, anyway. The SBC, we need to stop speaking negatively about one another. Also the SBC, who's funding Randy Adams tabloid? Mike Stone defends abuse. There's hypocrisy all over the place.

If you didn't see it, then I suggest there's a blindness there. If you went to the SBC and you didn't see this, any of this, then you may be drinking too much of the Kool-Aid. I'm not sure. I don't even know how to make sense of it anymore because it's so blatantly obvious and in your face.

It just, it literally is a room filled with people that for the most part are persuaded by style, optics, fashion, emotion, not truth, logic, reason and biblical authority. So let's get to the topic at hand though.

Here we go.

I'm gonna give you the top eight reasons and I'll just read them for you first. Eight reasons to leave the SBC. One, number one, God commands believers not to be bound with unbelievers. Number two, it is not wise stewardship to give to an organization that is inefficient in missions and promotes false teaching.

Number three, it is most likely impossible to recapture the convention for orthodoxy. Number four, there simply are not enough conservative leaders left willing to do the hard work of reform. Number five, attempting to recover the convention wastes time and resources spent, better spent building alternatives.

Number six, we live in a post-institutional world. Number seven, even if the SBC is recaptured, accountability, transparency and orthodoxy are threatened because of its size. And reason eight to leave the SBC, it is much more acceptable, efficient and fulfilling to function on a local level according to human scale.

And I'll go into all of these. Here's the first one. Do not be bound together with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial?

Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said. Second Corinthians 6, 14, and then through 18, he quotes from the Old Testament.

I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, they shall be my people. Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate, says the Lord, and do not touch what is unclean. And I'll welcome you and I will be a father to you and you shall be my sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.

God commands believers not to be bound with unbelievers. What recognizable fruit marks believers? This is the question. And I think there's two main things in scripture. One is repentance and one is love.

Now there's other fruits, I understand that. But there's two that are the most recognizable. Matthew 18, 17, if he refuses to listen to them, it's talking about correction, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector, basically a non-Christian.

This is how you know to treat someone like they are a non-believer. When they refuse correction, legitimate correction, that's gone through a process, a vetting process to make sure the correction's the right correction and to make sure the person has the opportunity.

And if they reject it, then treat them like an unbeliever. So if there's no repentance there for sin, treat them like an unbeliever. The other one is love. By this, all men will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another, John 13, 25.

Now let me ask you this. For those at the convention, Southern Baptist Convention, does true repentance and true love mark the leadership, let alone the audience of that convention? Love for others? Or was there castigation of those who would have concerns about, let's say, critical race theory?

How about repentance? There have been so many people that have corrected, that have approached and corrected, expressed concern to the leaders of the convention on social justice issues. What's been the reaction?

They have not taken it. They have not repented of the teachings. They don't even acknowledge the correction. This is what's going on. And if you think, if you agree with me, that there is a large portion of the leadership and a large portion of the convention that does not have the recognizable marks of believers, then what do you say to that?

How do you, I mean, here's the thing. I understand if you talk about the Southern Baptist Convention as a whole, not the people who showed up to vote, but the people in the denomination, I don't think this would characterize the denomination as a whole, I don't, but is growing more that way.

And the leadership, the people at the top, the entities, the people voting, making the decisions, this would characterize them. And if that's the case, again, what fellowship does light have with darkness?

God commands believers not to be bound with unbelievers. And you're getting to a point now where there's probably, it may even be the case that in the leadership, unbelievers might be even outnumbering believers.

That's a possibility. That's not an organization I wanna be a part of. Number two, it is not wise stewardship to give to an organization that is inefficient in missions and promotes false teaching. Luke 16, 11 through 12 says, therefore, if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true wealth to you?

And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give that which is your own? Baptisms have declined by 100 ,000. Church starts have plummeted to less than half the number before 2010.

NAM's church planning budget has exploded, growing from 23 million to 75 million. The seminaries are mired in social justice teaching. SEND promotes the great requirement as part of the gospel. The IMB plan to do implicit bias training.

And the new president co-preaches with his wife against the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 and pastors a church that harbored an incorrect understanding of the Trinity. Is this why stewardship to give these people your money?

They're inefficient in missions and they promote false teaching. It is most likely impossible to recapture the convention for orthodoxy. This is my third point. 2021 marks the highest percentage of conservative attendees motivated to elect a conservative president.

Conservative blogs and podcasts like this one will not take as much interest in 2022. And I have already had those conversations. This isn't even up for debate. I've talked to three major players in providing some of the negative energy, at least, if you wanna call it that, but here's the problems pointing out the issues.

All four of us have basically said, and we're some of the biggest players in this, we're not gonna be focusing on it anymore. This is not something that, well, yeah, maybe here or there we'll talk a little bit, but this is not something, we're not gonna be part of a campaign to take back the convention.

So you don't have us doing that. And there's reasons for that, but you don't have the amount of conservatives motivated to elect a conservative president. That's not just because of us. That's just because they lost last time.

And in 2022, it'll be in Anaheim. And the meeting will not be affordable for most of middle America conservatives. All those big Southern Baptist church fans won't be driving to Anaheim. They have to pay their way.

NAM employees don't. So you're gonna have NAM employees that are gonna overwhelm whatever conservatives show up. Every year that passes, more social justice advocates replace Orthodox messengers as a result of seminary indoctrination as well.

Even if a conservative president were elected, the swamp is deep and enacting change would likely be extremely hard, if not impossible. And I said this before, even this particular election, I said, look, you get a conservative president, they're gonna have to take an ax to the budgets and to the employee roles.

It's not gonna be fun. It's gonna be very hard work. And every year that passes, that work gets harder. And I don't know if there is someone out there that's capable of winning in doing that under the circumstances that currently exist.

Number four, I think this is number four. There simply are not enough conservative leaders left willing to do the hard work of reform. It would take people like this, in my estimation, knowledgeable about the denomination, unconcerned with personal attacks against them, aggressive in rooting out compromise, understanding social justice and how it conflicts with Christianity and able to work with other like-minded individuals.

Describe anyone you know. Can you count them on one hand? If that's the case, if it's only on one hand that you can count them, if you can find them at all, then how are you gonna find all the people to fill all these posts?

This is one of the problems Trump had in a way when he got elected is, okay, how do I fill all these staff positions with people that agree with my agenda? And I think that was easier than it probably is in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Attempting to recover the convention also wastes time and resources better spent building alternatives. This is my fifth point. Church giving, travel expenses, personal investment, all these things are sacrifices people must make.

And this time could be going to other things, to legitimate ministry. Number six, we live in a post-institutional world. And there's the book, Bowling Alone, the Collapse and Revival of American Community by Robert Putnam.

Voluntary associations are dying. Millennials in Gen Z are more personally individualistic. You probably don't wanna put your time behind a brand that's as big as the Southern Baptist Convention anyway, because this isn't something, you know, millennials in Gen Z, they're interested in this big, all powerful central government that gives them everything they need, sure.

But in their own personal lives, when we're talking about personal associations, they wanna go down to like the local farm market or something, their localism is making kind of a comeback. And these big bloated institutions are just not, I don't, I think the writing's already on the wall for the SBC, no matter what happens.

Even if the SBC is recaptured, accountability, transparency, and orthodoxy are threatened because of its size. Number seven, an organization the size of the SBC will catch media attention and people naturally want to be liked.

An organization the size of the SBC naturally attracts people who desire control and wealth. An organization the size of the SBC will compete with local associations the way Walmart competes with mom and pop stores.

An organization the size of the SBC is not threatened by individual churches or even associations of churches to stay orthodox. Think about it this way. Compare your national government to your local government.

Who listens to you more? Who is more accountable to you? Who has, where can your church have a bigger impact? It is much more accountable, efficient, and fulfilling to function on a local level according to human scale.

SBC has a human scale problem. It won't have accountability because the churches and associations cannot make a dent. It's all a top-down control structure and it's just very difficult. So where would you rather put your time?

You gotta think about your life. Your life is short. Where would you like to invest it? Beating your head against the wall, trying to take back this denomination, or are there fulfilling things that you can get involved in?

The early church functioned on a local scale. There is no precedent in scripture for centralized denominations. So those are my eight reasons to not vote, or I'm sorry, to leave the Southern Baptist Convention.

And I'll just remind you at the end here, you can go and download the slideshow for that on Patreon. Link is in the info section. You can also go to the link in the info section. And if you don't have already, or you wanna give to a friend, Social Justice Goes to Church, The New Left in Modern American Evangelicalism.

It is $15 for an autographed copy. And you can go check that out in the info section as well. I hope this is helpful for you. I know this is hard for some of you. It's painful. There's emotional attachment.

You've been part of this denomination and now even considering having to go is difficult, and I understand that. Over the last few years, I feel, I've told my wife, seems like everything that I love just keeps dying.

All the things that I enjoy, the things, I mean, I can't even hardly turn on like a country music station. I enjoyed listening to country music for years. Not all of you agree with me on that, but I did.

I liked it. And I turn it on, I don't even know what I'm listening to anymore. They've even started to go woke on the mainstream level. Now it's not true of individual artists, but it's just one illustration of, I said, I think they're gonna cancel barbecue and apple pie because I'm just waiting for it.

I mean, what is there left? But here's the reality. There is a lot left. There's right now where I am, it's a sunny day. It's beautiful. The birds are chirping. There's always things that God has given us to be thankful for.

Family, friends, most of all, the fact that Jesus Christ came and paid the penalty for my sin, for your sin, if you are in him. And gave us the opportunity. And for those in him, the guarantee that we will be in heaven, in a right relationship with God for eternity because of his work, not because of ours, if we trust and put our faith in him.

So there's always something to be thankful for. There really is. But I understand the hardship of having to part with things you're emotionally connected to, things you even found your identity in. But we need to remember, our identity is not with these ultimate identity, right?

We have identities and temporary things, and that's perfectly fine, natural, and I think totally fine. And the more natural the identity, even the more the better in some ways. But we ultimately, our citizenship is in heaven.

We will always have a core identity if we are in Christ of being in him. We're part of his family. And an attachment to the SBC, this is an artificial creation of man. I understand when you think of the SBC, you're thinking of green bean casserole, burnt green bean casserole when you were a kid.

You're thinking of baptisms and potlucks and social gatherings and walking down the aisle and the smell of the musty old church or the gym where you went to sports camp that was built in the 1970s and the basketballs are still from that era.

I mean, I understand. I know all the things that you're thinking about that you just think, this is my denomination. Even if you stay in the denomination, that stuff isn't coming back. It's going to leave.

And we just have to come to terms with that. And where there's something old that was very good and something you love to preserve for your children that's natural, it's time to plant something else. Just like when there's an old tree in your backyard that needs to be cut down, you plant a new tree, a young, vibrant, new tree.

And it's gonna be smaller at first. That's true. It's not gonna be that big, great tree that you were so impressed with and could build a tree house in. It's gonna be a little tree. But you water it, you give it care, and it'll grow.

And it'll sprout, it'll produce fruit. And that old tree that didn't produce any fruit, what good is it? The only good is it's for firewood. So that's my case, the eight reasons to leave the SBC. And we'll see, maybe we'll have someone from Conservative Baptist Network or some other organization that wants people to stay and come on and give their case.

And I'm fine with that. But this is where I've been, I think, for the last few years. But I didn't wanna pour cold water on conservatives trying to take it back. I wanted to help them as much as possible.

And I knew that it would take an effort like this that failed, if it did fail, for people to realize the situation they're actually in. I knew I couldn't even show it to you. You'd have to see for yourself.

And some people are seeing it for themselves. I think I had the advantage of being in a seminary that was one of the ones to go woke first and they went woke hard and very controlling tendencies there.

So for me, it's not a big shock. I went through a lot of what you're going through, some of you, years ago. And it was hard at that point. I felt alone, I felt isolated. And now though, I am not that way.

Now you all see what's happening and I'm grateful for that. So on that note, there will be more later this week. I don't know if there will be more SBC stuff, but there will be more. And I hope this was helpful to you.

God bless.