Imam Shabir Ally

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a
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Tuesday. We are going to try to Do a dividing line on Thursday, but we're gonna be flying by the seat of our pants skin of our teeth
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Whatever other terminology you wish to use Because I won't be here and we're gonna be trying to do it by Skype and we haven't done that before I did a
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Skype interview a couple days ago, man. It sounded good. It sounded like we were sitting in the same room Really really really sounded good.
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So it can work very very well, but we will find out we will See what we can see and do what we can do to to make that work
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For you here on the dividing line now developments in London A couple extra costs have come up.
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So if you Would feel so led to help us make all that work.
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That would be a very encouraging to us It's always encouraging to have folks standing with us, especially as I'm looking at the single busiest
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Two weeks of ministry in my adult life. Anyways, that's for certain So the more people standing with us that would be and if they're not huge costs
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So, you know, some people don't give because they figure I you're talking thousands bucks. No You need to pick up a few items and a couple people at 20 or 30 bucks
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We'll be able to cover everything over time very easily Just let you know about that. And of course, you know, the continued support of the ministry is important as well
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But here's the situation Announced last week. I think it was last week.
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I need to go on so fast I remember which day of the week it is anymore by now It's last week that should barely will be in the
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UK at the same time He contacted me and we are going to arrange these debates now
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Last evening. I was talking with Doug McMaster's the pastor of Trinity Road Chapel in London where we're gonna be having the second debate on Thursday evening on the deity of Christ with Sammy's authority and We were talking about the fact
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I'm preaching at Doug's Church twice on Sunday Sunday morning Sunday evening and we're talking about having a debate in the afternoon.
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Can you imagine that preaching Sunday Sunday morning? Debating the afternoon preaching in the evening. I that's that's that's
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Mental suicide you just ain't gonna survive that so I had we're trying to figure out we're trying to get locations
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We're still working on locations. Only one that we've really got nailed down right now that I know of At least for my debates and let me mention
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David Wood is doing more debates than I am during that time period He is a debating machine.
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He does not eat drink or sleep I do not believe he's human and So I I think he's doing seven if I recall correctly.
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It's just an outrageous number of debates and But we're still working on trying to get locations.
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And so I suggested last evening to Shabir an email that we had thought of dividing our topic up which is is
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Jesus prophesied in the Old Testament is Muhammad prophesied in the Bible into two different debates do one on Saturday one on Sunday a
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Problem with that is doing on Sundays. It's not gonna work for me. So I said, you know, I'm there through Monday I don't leave till Tuesday morning.
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So I've got Monday So what if we did like a three and a half hour debate?
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We do like a hundred was a hundred and five minutes per or something like that I forget how it works out, but basically an hour and 45 minutes per topic and we do
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The first part of it is just prophesied in the Bible take the break and then do the second part of it is
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Muhammad prophesied in The Bible actually would be Jesus in the Old Testament because the New Testament sort of relevant at that point.
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But anyway, that's what we're going to Well, I suggest that last night. So This morning
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I heard back from Shabir that That that sounds fine and we'll try to do it on Monday.
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That's very good for me because then I'd be debating on Tuesday Thursday Monday and Thursday and so instead of you know, just cramming it all, you know day by day by day
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At least I get a couple nights rest between each one and because I to use the
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Athletic analogy leave it on all on the court when it comes to a debate It is something
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I really pour myself into so Generally the idea of doing multiple multiple multiple ones is not overly wise for me
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But we're going to have to trust the Lord on that. So I Don't have the locations yet.
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No, we're talking to folks at Trinity Road Chapel that might work out that They're gonna be talking to some other folks today and tomorrow
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It nearby that have good facilities that might work out as well. We will find places but those of you who
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Are going hey, we want to have all this stuff set up right now Well, I wish we did that would be very nice.
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That'd be very useful, but We're working on it and there's normally a fair amount of delay
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Given the fact that we're going transatlantic so any happens over here in the evenings happening over there early in the morning and and so on and so forth and so That's just part of part of the situation that we're dealing with there.
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So that's what's that's what's coming up there Do you have a schedule of anything yet?
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What? Is there anything scheduled yet for a location? Yeah. Yeah. I've already mentioned that Thursday that like I said the debate with Sammy's authority is that Trinity Road Chapel at 8 p .m.
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And that's already Not until we've got now this is gonna it's gonna come together and when we've got the information
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We'll give you the information. That's there's another way to do it if anybody has a better way That's exactly right if anybody we'd like to step up and shell out a
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Couple thousand pounds to rent facilities stuff like that. Great fine, then you have you have ground to complain
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But if you don't then you don't so that's sort of how that works So we will we will let people know when we know we can't do we can't do the impossible
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So we are doing the best we can in that situation. So that's what's coming up. I'm really excited about these debates
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The topics are great Obviously one of the topics we've done many times before But it always bears repetition the first debate on whether worship of the
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Trinity involves shirk Is the first time that I know of anyone who's debated that subject I came up with that topic myself
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I think it's very very important Then Shabir and I have never debated the topic that we are going to be debating I'm gonna be playing something here in a little while so you can hear sort of have a preview and Then the debate of Duke the
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I'm sorry the dialogue at Duke on the subject of the Quran the Bible likewise is
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Extremely useful and for us will be new the only only one of the debate topics that we're doing have we done before and a number of times actually in defense of the deity of Christ and so Excited about all those things.
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I am working diligently day and night Studying and Obtaining resources and doing all the things that I need to do to properly represent
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The gospel of Jesus Christ, and so I am very focused upon that at this point in time now
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What I would like to do and I did not get a chance to do this way I would like to do it. So I'm gonna have to sort of make it work here.
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I Was thinking What I would like to do is I would like to play for you Shabir's opening statement now such
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Say, how did you get the opening statement debate as taking place yet? Well in 2005 in Glasgow Scotland where I would love to have this debate as well in Glasgow Scotland Shabir Ali debated
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Anish Arosh on whether Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible. So It is has been fascinating for me to listen to this presentation
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For a number of reasons first of all to compare and contrast it with the standard presentation that you hear from an
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Ahmadita We have played on this program in years past. I'm Adidas attempts to find in the
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New Testament and in the Bible references to Jesus and of course the standard text
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Deuteronomy 18 the Song of Solomon and John 14 and 16 and the the
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Pericle and we have Documented the many errors that Ahmadita made especially in in John in his attempts to to come up with this
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Identification now Shabir Ali is a very intelligent man. He has heard all these things and I'm so thankful and in his presentation
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He does not argue that The the text itself at the term
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Pericle has been changed that originally read something else He does not do that in the fact that he does not would seem to indicate to me that he recognizes
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He does not have any chance whatsoever of substantiating that allegation He is going to attack the text in the
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New Testament He is going to chop it up into little pieces and turn it into jigsaw puzzle and move pieces around so he can make his argument work and he's going to do that based upon embracing liberal
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Western scholarship and Even though he complained to Robert Maury about Robert Maury doing that that is
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Shabir Ali's modus operandi that is his approach is he when he defends the
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Muslim position he wears his Muslim hat and he is a supernaturalist and he believes in revelation and so on so forth
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But when he attacks a New Testament, he takes off his Muslim hat puts on his John Dominic Crossan look -alike mask and all of a sudden is a
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Western naturalistic humanist and Then goes back and forth between the two and I think that is the fundamental refutation of Shabir Ali's methodology
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But it's not just Shabir Ali. I have not met the consistent Muslim yet. I continue my search.
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Maybe I'll find one in London Who puts his Muslim hat on and keeps his Muslim hat on?
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maybe I actually sort of doubt that's going to happen because I think that that epistemological schizophrenia is forced upon them by the nature of The Quran itself and its lack of cohesion with the
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Old and New Testaments and the people that allegedly It is actually speaking in accordance with so what
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I would like to do Is I'm going to play for you Shabir Ali's opening statement from the debate in 2005
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It's fairly lengthy and I'm not gonna be breaking in. I want you as our listening audience and again We have an odd listening audience.
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We have a listening audience of people who? Want to be challenged they want to learn they want to expand and I know that this is not quote -unquote good radio, but this is good apologetics and Here's my challenge to you.
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I want you to put yourself in a position where you're sitting in my seat in London in a couple of weeks and This is the presentation that you are going to be hearing and you are going to have to stand up and respond to it
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How would you do so? I want you if you can I know not everyone can do this, but set aside the distractions around you and Do what
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I do as I listen I've listened to this debate multiple times already I've covered
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Oh About 100 280 some -odd miles over the past two and a half weeks on the bike and My little iPod shuffle is is wheezing because it has been used so much and I have listened to this over and over again as I listen to a presentation
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You'd you'd you want to just keep enough distance you want to be listening to it carefully
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You want to be constantly testing it for consistency? But you also want to have enough distance to keep some perspective on it and ask the question is the person who's making this argumentation
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Staying consistent with their own worldview What is the background here what resources where would you want to go to be able to check out the assertions that Shabir Ali makes
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Obviously I have Been checking those things out and I have the luxury I guess we could say of being able to look at those things with a little more time in this context
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Which I would not have and will not have as I sit there in London But how would you respond? What would be if you were to prioritize remember normally when you get a response unless it's the opening statements when you get a response you have less time the other guy did to give a response and So you have to prioritize.
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What is most important? What is what do I want to communicate to the audience?
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Who are the people? I'm trying to contact trying to to minister to here and So with that in mind the one of the reasons
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I said I was having to hurry too much this morning is I Am going to have to use the YouTube version of this which means
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I don't have an mp3 format I can't queue it up real nicely And so I'm a little concerned as to how that's going to work
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But I'm going to try to find Exactly where to get started and it should be fairly close to the building
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I'm going to call the first speaker for tonight. It's Mr. Shabbir Ali And he will
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I will ask him to adhere strictly to the format and he allows him to come to the stage Where he will speak for 40 minutes
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Thank you all very much. I'm delighted to be with you speaking in this hall one more time I begin by praising
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God the creator of the heavens and the earth and asking to send peace and blessings upon all of you And upon all of his prophets and messengers throughout time in the spirit of dialogue and friendship
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I'd like to first begin by saying that I was at the bookshop a couple of days ago
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And I saw a book that I have benefited from reading and I felt that my friend dr
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Anisha Roche may also appreciate the book like this. I'd like to offer him this gift
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Now folks to begin with I'd like to offer five Arguments to show that the
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Bible both in the Old and New Testaments speak of Muhammad first I'd like to say that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses spoken of in the book of Deuteronomy William Montgomery what writes in his book
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Muslim Christian encounters on page 36 the passage in Deuteronomy in chapter 18 verses 14 to 19 in which
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Moses says to the Israelites that God will raise up for them from among their brothers a
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Prophet like himself seemed to state a general principle namely that when God's people need divine guidance or other help
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God will send a prophet to give them that this principle could be taken to be fulfilled and a whole series of prophets who
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Through many centuries guided the Israelites the later Jews thought it applied to the coming of the
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Messiah and it was taken in this sense by the early Christians and Applied to Jesus in Acts chapter 3 verse 22 on forward from this standpoint a
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Christian can admit That in a sense it also applies to Muhammad Now was the
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Prophet Muhammad like the Prophet Moses The Collins gem Dictionary of the
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Bible by Reverend James Dow states on pages 402 to 403 as a statesman and lawgiver
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Moses is the creator of the Jewish people He found a loose conglomeration of Semitic people none of whom had been anything but a slave and whose ideas of religion
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Were a complete confusion he let them out and he hammered them into a nation with a law and a national pride and A compelling sense of being chosen by a particular
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God who was supreme The only man in history who can be compared even remotely to him is
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Muhammad I've tried to pronounce it the way he spelt it. So ladies and gentlemen,
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I submit to you that according to these Christian scholars It is easy to see that Muhammad was the prophets like Moses that is spoken about in that passage in Deuteronomy Even if previously that passage was understood in some way as referring to Christ Now was
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Muhammad from among the brethren of the Israelites? I would say yes Now Abraham begat
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Ishmael and Isaac Ishmael begat the Arabs and Isaac begat the
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Israelites now Let's look at a parallel case to see if the Israelites and Ishmaelites are brothers
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Harper's Bible Dictionary Explains on page 246 that Isaac begat
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Esau and Jacob Israel Esau begat the
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Edomites and Jacob Israel begat the Israelites. So here you have the Edomites from Esau and the
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Israelites from Jacob Israel now are these two brothers of each other Yes, the
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Bible calls them the brothers of the Israelites that is the Edomites are the brothers of the Israelites According to Deuteronomy chapter 2 verse 4 and verse 8 moreover
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The Bible tells the Israelites do not abhor an Edomite for he is your brother. That is
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Deuteronomy chapter 23 verse 7 I put before you then ladies and gentlemen that this establishes the general principle that in the language of the
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Bible The descendants of two brothers are the brothers of each other Therefore the descendants of Ishmael are the brothers of the descendants of Isaac Hence Muhammad being an
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Ishmaelite qualifies on this count. Dr Shirosh in fact admits that Muhammad is from Ishmael on page 73 of his book
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Islam revealed He gives a family tree tracing Muhammad to the to his ancestor fair known as Quraish and he adds fair is
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Directly descended from Ishmael in the male line my second point is that Muhammad Fulfills the promise that God made in the
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Bible to Abraham and his son Ishmael Specifically in Genesis chapter 17 verse 20.
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We read of God's promise to make Ishmael a great nation Now in the Kovach a
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Jewish Bible commentary edited by edited by rabbi Nosson Sherman and rabbi mirror
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Zorowitz on page 78. We find the following commentary on this verse I quote we see from the prophecy in this verse that 2337 years elapsed before the
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Arabs Ishmael's descendants became a great nation with the rise of Islam in 624
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CE Now dr. Shirosh wrote that the promises God made to the Arabs through Ishmael were fulfilled precisely
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He wrote and I quote I will make him a great nation was fulfilled when the Muslim Empire Was a reality from the 7th to the 12th centuries that's in his book
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Islam revealed page 208 the implication of that is that since the rise of the
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Muslim Empire was precipitated by The Prophet hood of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him his very prophet hood
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Then is the fulfillment of that promise that God had made to Abraham and his son
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Ishmael My third point is that Muhammad is That person who is being described in the song of Solomon and especially in verse in Chapter 5 verse number 16 where it says he is altogether lovely now on the surface
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This is a love poem depicting sexual love between a man and a woman but Jewish commentators and the classical commentary known as song of songs rabbi have
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Interpreted this poem as Meaning or depicting the love between God and his people in the
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Bible of Judaism library series Jacob Musner in fact Contributes a volume entitled
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Israel's love affair with God Song of songs and the title of that book tells you what it deals with now
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Christian commentators Came along and they said that it is a depiction of the love between Christ and his church
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His people his followers and the church's Bible series Richard a
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Norris jr Contributes his volume entitled the song of songs interpreted by early Christian and medieval commentators
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These commentators agree that the love is between Christ and his church recently
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Roger Ellsworth President of the Illinois State Baptist Association published his book entitled.
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He is altogether lovely discovering Christ in the song of Solomon Again, the title of the book is quite telling now
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Is it possible for Muslim commentators to see here a description of the love between Muhammad and his ummah his people his followers?
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I would say yes It turns out that Roger Ellsworth entitled his book with the words from a key passage in the song of songs in chapter 5 verse 8
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The female charges that if the daughters of Jerusalem should find her beloved
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They should declare her love for him and verse 9 They ask what is so special about her beloved or how does he stand out from the others in reply?
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As she describes his virtues in the next six verses Then she caps the description in verse 16 with these words.
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His mouth is sweetness itself He is altogether lovely Song of Solomon or song of songs chapter 5 verse 16 in the
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New International Version Bible both Jewish and Muslim both Jewish and Christian commentators agree that his mouth is
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Sweetness itself is a reference to the nature of his words Hence Jewish commentators have said that since this refers to God the sweetness of his mouth means the words of the
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Torah Is it possible for Muslims to say that this sweetness refers to the words of the
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Quran? I think so It turns out that the words in Hebrew which is translated.
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He is altogether lovely contains an echo of Muhammad's name
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Translating the sentence as he is totally desirable Temporal Longman the third writes in the
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New International commentary on the Old Testament on page 11 page 175 and I quote
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Between quotes I will not add any words of my own if you hear a Hebrew word sound that is because it's there in his
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Text quote again She concludes with a general comment this time with a statement of her intense desire for him the word desire rebel
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Muhammadim derives from the root hand all the derivatives of hand refer to outward appearance
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They also emphasize more the attractiveness of an object with some emphasis on the value of the object
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Now what you heard there ladies and gentlemen is the name Muhammad in which in Hebrew contains the plural suffix
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I am and if that is dropped Which is a plural suffix here out of respect
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Then we see that we have there an echo of the name Muhammad exactly and though in Hebrew it obviously means something slightly different than it means in Arabic We reflect that the
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Hebrew word system is based on the same Triliteral root system that the Arabic roots is based on and hence why the name
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Muhammad is based on the tri literal root HMD Which might be pronounced hand which means praise in a similar way in the
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Hebrew here. It is based on HMD Longman continues the wasp or the description ends with a definite proclamation to the women the daughters of Jerusalem To whom she has been speaking they asked in chapter 5 verse 9 for a description of her lover
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And she has given it to them ladies and gentlemen I put before you that this song then can be interpreted as meaning that this lover of Muhammad meaning the
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Ummah or the people of Muhammad are calling on the people of Jerusalem to recognize
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Muhammad and to believe in him to consider him Desirable to want to have him and in that case then my third point holds that Muhammad peace be upon him is he that is described in the song of Solomon my fourth point
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Turning now to the New Testament documents. We see that there is an expectation of Another prophet that prophet who was to be like Moses that we heard about at the beginning of my speech from the book of Deuteronomy But now we're reading the
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New Testament and the gospel according to John in chapter 1 verse 19 The Jews asked John the
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Baptist who he was and they offered three possibilities They suggested are you the
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Christ? Are you Elijah? Are you the prophet not just simply a prophet?
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But are you that prophet? Now he denied that he was any of these
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And we know who the Christ was But who was the prophet Raymond Brown in his two -volume commentary on the gospel according to John Tells us that it was the prophet like Moses who we already heard about in Deuteronomy chapter 18 verses 15 to 18
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Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce Dr. Raymond Brown. He is one of the most he was the foremost in fact
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New Testament scholar in our present time He passed away a few years ago and he has left his mark on New Testament scholarship his two -volume commentary on the gospel according to John is the most massive
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I've encountered and Most detailed in fact a couple of years ago when
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I debated my friend Joseph Smith in Leicester He recommended that I read
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Raymond Brown and I took that recommendation seriously now this expected prophet would be a temporal ruler we can tell and Therefore he was not
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Jesus because Jesus was not a temporal ruler According to John chapter 6 verse 14 in the
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NIV After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did they began to say surely this is the prophet who is to come into the world
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And verse number is 15 the very next verse It says that Jesus knowing that they what they intended knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force
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Withdrew again into the hills by himself Now, why would they intend to make
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Jesus King after recognizing him as the prophet? Obviously because they expected that he is to be the prophet like Moses who would be a king and Jesus was not to be that King.
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Therefore. He was not to be the prophet like Moses Raymond Brown, right? the Cormann Comer on essence or essence
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Seem to have expected three eschatological figures a prophet a priestly
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Messiah and a royal Messiah is on page 46 of his To volume commentary volume 2 volume 1 rather and further we find in first Maccabees chapter 4 verses 41 to 50 and other references the expectation of the coming of a
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Prophet who could solve legal problems on the pattern of Moses at Qumran The Essenes are told to cling to the
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Torah and the ancient laws of the community until a prophet comes Presumably the prophet like Moses.
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This is on his page 49 now This expected prophet would not come from Galilee We learn also in the gospel according to John and since Jesus came from Galilee Jesus is not that expected prophet
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John chapter 7 verses 40 to 41 reads That some of the crowd who heard these words began to say this is undoubtedly the prophet
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They're thinking of Jesus others were claiming this is the Messiah So opinion is divided and an argument ensues.
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Is he the prophet is in the Messiah? could he fulfill the qualifications of each the objection was raised that the
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Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem and Everyone knew that he was from Galilee So, how could that be now a
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Christian would obviously answer by saying look at Matthew and Luke's Gospels Jesus was born at Bethlehem.
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So he fulfills the requirement to be the Messiah But what about being that prophet John chapter 7 verse 52 says look it up and you won't find the prophet arising in Galilee The essential point here then is that the prophet
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Will not come from Galilee and since Jesus does come from Galilee. He obviously does not qualify
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So in the case of the Messiah, the essential point was that regardless where his hometown is he should be born in Bethlehem The essential point about the prophet is that regardless where he's born he must not be from Galilee and So I put before you ladies and gentlemen that Jesus did not fulfill that prophecy
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Now acts of the Apostles in chapter 3 verses 22 on forward Has Peter saying that Jesus must remain in heaven until that time of restoration occurs?
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When God will give you that prophet that he promised Now does he mean that Jesus in his second coming will fulfill the requirements of being the prophet like Moses?
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That's a possibility But even if that is a possibility It means then that Jesus in his first coming did not fulfill the requirement of being the prophet like Moses What seems more obvious from the reading of Acts chapter 3 from Peter's words?
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Jesus must remain in heaven until that time of restoration Comes when God actually sends that prophet like Moses and then eventually
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Jesus will make his second coming So altogether I conclude from my fourth point that Jesus Was not the fulfillment of that prophet like Moses and even if he was seen as a partial fulfillment
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For the time it must to be held now that Muhammad more so fulfills that Prediction than Jesus did now.
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My fifth and last point is That Muhammad peace be upon him is the paraclete that is spoken about in the gospel according to John in chapters 15 and 16 if these two chapters are read as an earlier form of Jesus is saying then chapter 14
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Now instead of mouthful there and I'd like to break that apart and tell you what it means But first what is this term paraclete?
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How many words are there in the Bible which require such a retention of the original
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Greek term? Paracletus in Greek now is given an anglicized version paraclete
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Even the word Christ is easily translated as anointed and no one will complain that the meaning is incorrect or incomplete anointed in English means
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Christ But what about the word paraclete various translations have been proposed comforter counselor advocate but none of these
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Translations prove adequate to biblical scholars and many prefer to just retain the term
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Paraclete in fact if you look at the biblical commentaries on the gospel according to John you will often find that a separate
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Treatment is given just to this term Usually the narrative goes verse by verse and suddenly the narrative breaks off to give you some sort of an appendix an insertion
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Of a long article just explaining what the paraclete is It obviously has proved the puzzling term
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Why is this so I think we'll find the answer to this tonight first What does the term paraclete mean and can it mean a prophet when we put two and two together?
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Here is what we find according to Harper's Bible Dictionary 1985 edition on page 749 the word means one called to the side of One called to the side of now, you know the term
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Having a call or receiving call someone says I received a call to the ministry Means that somehow
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God called him summoned him to the job He received the calling so the paraclete is one called to the side of now the same dictionary tells us that the
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Hebrew word for prophet Nabi Means one who calls or one who is called that's on page 826 this seems to mean that paraclete is
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Nabi a paraclete is a prophet now this meaning in fact is
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Supported by a number of other points the Old Testament scholar Bernard Anderson in his book understanding the
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Old Testament says That it is uncertain whether the word Nabi means one who calls or one who is called in other words
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Is it active one who is calling or is it passive one who is called to service? He adds that the word means a prophet
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He explains that Prophet is an intermediary a Spokesperson one who acts and speaks on behalf of another that's in his fourth edition page 248 so now a prophet is an intermediary a spokesperson
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If you reflect on the story of Moses You can understand the meaning of this word prophets if you've seen the
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Ten Commandments Well, then there is Charlton Heston starring as Moses and Moses gets this command from God He's to go preach the message to the
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Pharaoh But Moses complained about complains about his own speech impediment, and he asks for an assistant someone to speak for him so God says to him in Exodus chapter 7 verse 1 see
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I'm appointing you as God to the Pharaoh and Moses as your prophet
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In other words just as God would have spoken to Pharaoh Moses goes instead he plays
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God and Just as Moses should have been the prophet for God speaking on God's behalf now
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Aaron speaks on behalf of Moses So Aaron is the prophet of Moses one who speaks for another is called a prophet
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And a prophet of God is one who speaks on behalf of God in other words a spokesperson for God now among the meanings assigned by Raymond Brown to the term paraclete are an
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Intercessor a mediator a spokesperson That's in his volume 2 page 1136 ladies and gentlemen
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I conclude from this that a paraclete and a Nabi a prophet means almost the same thing and Sensing this meaning
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Stephen Byington in his translation of the Bible the Bible in living English translates the term paraclete as spokesman and So whereas you might be familiar with some
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Bible translations that say that God will send the Comforter here you have it in Stephen Byington's translation that God will send another
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Spokesman and from that we know that this obviously refers to another prophet
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Now I did say That I will read the gospel according to John chapters 15 and 16 as being distinct from chapter 14 let me explain
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Today it is widely accepted in biblical scholarship that the gospel according to John was composed towards the close of the first century
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AD Roughly around the year 100 this would mean about 70 years after Jesus had left the scene and in the meantime the gospel according to John went through several stages of Development to reach its final form
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Now you will notice that chapter 21 for example in the gospel according to John is marked off in some
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Bibles as an epilogue Why is that? Because chapter 20 seems to have marked originally the end of this gospel
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Where John says I could write much more But I wrote this much and this is sufficient basically because if I were to write everything the world would not hold the books
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It seems that he intended to end his gospel right there And then suddenly we find chapter 21 most biblical scholars today would agree that chapter 21 though present in all of the manuscripts of John's gospel available to us
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Nevertheless came to be tacked on during the last stage of editing of this gospel, but it's not only chapter 21
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More to our point now is chapters 15 to 17 Scholars have noted the chapters 15 to 17 has been inserted as a block between chapters 14 and 18
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There are several reasons that led to this conclusion at the end of chapter 14 Jesus is
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Jesus anticipates that that those who are about to Arrest him are drawing close
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So Jesus brings his speech to a close by saying I shall no longer speak much with you
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For the prince of the world is coming and then he says get up. Let us leave
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Let us leave here and be on our way. That's John chapter 14 verses number 30 to 31
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Now this continues smoothly if we read on where it says after this discourse
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Jesus went out with his disciples across the Kidron Valley to where there was a garden Flow of the narrative is smooth
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Jesus said he will not speak much more and he doesn't he said get up and let's leave and he left
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He said let us be on our way and he's on our way. He's on his way across the Kidron Valley The problem is that in order to achieve this neat a continuation we had to skip three chapters
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We jump from the end of chapter 14 to the beginning of chapter 18
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This indicates that the chapters between chapters 14 and 18 have been squeezed in pushing these two apart
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The three inserted chapters are filled with the speech of Jesus making it the longest speech anywhere in the
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Gospels And it now sits right after Jesus's declaration. I shall no longer speak much with you
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So Jesus is at dinner with his disciples and he says I shall no longer speak much with you get up. Let's be going
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Let's leave here Then the next chapter He's still speaking the following one he's still speaking
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The following one he's still speaking three whole chapters. It's almost like the dinner guest who says
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I've got to leave and He's just talking by the door Scholars have noticed then that these chapters obviously are an insertion
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Some early manuscripts do not have the word much here where it says I will not speak to you much
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More to you and that's initially the passage said
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I shall no longer speak with you But Raymond Brown thinks that a later scribe noticing the difficulty that Jesus says
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I shall no longer speak with you and then suddenly he's speaking for three more chapters inserted the word much
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So that blunts the edge of the difficulty so I won't speak much more with you three chapters
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Seems like not too much at least for the scribe now a clearer indication that this section is a later insertion into this gospel would be found by noticing the contradiction between chapters 13 and 16 and Chapter 13 verse number 36
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Peter asked Jesus where he is going, but then in chapter 16 verse number 5
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Jesus complains that none of his disciples are asking him where he is going and that's in the very
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Same sitting if we take all of these passages as a smooth continuation
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But if we understand then that these three chapters were inserted into the gospel of John after an initial completion of the gospel then we understand
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That's the contradiction came there due to this insertion one author wrote one thing another author brought something else in there now the point then of All of this is that when we recognize chapters 15 16 and 17 as a later insertion
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We realize that they could be read differently from chapter 14 in fact Raymond Brown thinks that these three chapters may actually represent an earlier form of Jesus is saying
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But let us look at what? information we have from This gospel and why it is important now to see how these chapters are read differently now if you're familiar with Muslim Christian Discussions over this question you will be aware that typically a
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Christian quotes chapter 14 Especially verse number 26 to say look the paraclete is the
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Holy Spirit and the Muslim quotes chapter 16 to say look the paraclete is obviously a human being because look at refers to the this person in the male
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Pronoun whereas in Greek that the Holy Spirit would be referred to using the neuter gender
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So the argument continues with one person referring to chapter 14 and the other referring to chapter 16
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By putting before you now the history of the composition of this gospel I am showing you that in fact each is reading a separate saying of Jesus And in fact it looks like the
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Muslim is reading the earlier form of that saying Raymond Brown has insisted that even though these chapters were inserted later
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They're not by virtue of their late insertion late in origin He thinks that they come from the same original pool of sayings that were in the first instance included in the gospel
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I would argue further That the sayings about the paraclete and the later inserted chapters are closer to Jesus's actual saying
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Than those of chapter 14 here are my reasons Brown explains that the idea of the paraclete as the
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Holy Spirit came about due to two factors First the passing away of the original disciples of Jesus meant that there were no longer
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Original witnesses to proclaim the teachings of Jesus and guarantee the authenticity of these teachings
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So the disciples passed away and people are asking now How can we be sure about these things the original life and by witnesses are no longer here?
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We need somebody who can verify these Events second the fact that Jesus did not return within the lifetime of his disciples as originally promised
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Meant a crisis that had to be solved John's solution according to Raymond Brown was to say that Jesus is not coming back
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He's already with us as the Holy Spirit The presence of Jesus as the
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Holy Spirit also solves the other problem For he will guarantee that the teachings of Jesus are authentically available in the heart of every
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Christian Brown thinks that John was representing the Holy Spirit in such a new light that he had to give it a new name the paraclete
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It seems to me then that there is a better explanation for the problems that Brown is trying to solve
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Usually in biblical studies, we do not assume that an author introduced the problem We assume that the author is trying to deal with the problem and he introduces a solution
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It is unthinkable Therefore that John would introduce this term paraclete to solve a problem hence
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Inventing a bigger problem for people to explain so that the Bible commentators cannot finish explaining what is meant by paraclete
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So that they have to keep the original word and break off the commentary in order to explain in a separate appendix
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What is meant by the paraclete? It seems then that the better solution is to say that the idea of the paraclete was already known
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And then John took that idea and made that refer to the Holy Spirit And this in fact is the opinion of several scholars that we will
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Encounter in my presentation in the last couple of minutes But first we must look at John chapter 14 and ask how this came to represent
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The Holy Spirit first look at John chapter 14 verse number 26 Some early versions of John's Gospels such as the old
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Syriac Sinaiticus Do not have the term holy in this verse and this is the only verse in John's Gospel Which specifically identifies the paraclete as the
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Holy Spirit? CK Barrett the great Christian scholar in his commentary on the gospel according to John has said that the original reading
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Therefore was simply the paraclete the spirit Hence even in chapter 14 it is possible to see reminiscences of the way in which this
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Saying of Jesus was handled and passed on it seems that initially it did not say the
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Holy Spirit and someone Inserted the term holy in this verse now if it only says spirit notice that it could be read metaphorically in fact
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Dr. Charles Francis Potter in his book the last years of Jesus revealed Writes on the manual of discipline discovered among the
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Dead Sea Scrolls And I quote him at times when reading the manual carefully one gets the impression
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That the Holy Spirit is synonymous with truth or righteousness or justice And that the
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Essenes were struggling hard to express and emphasize the importance of this abstract idea without Personifying it enough to make it a rival to God and he continues perhaps what they were trying to say
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Would be put in this way today Being baptized by water into the community of the new covenant is not enough that doesn't wash away your sins
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You must really mean it in your heart in the spirit of truth Is that only way to enter this fellowship of truth and justice
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And the spirit of truth is that only way to enter this fellowship of truth and justice
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And then he continues whether Jesus meant any more than that When he spoke of the spirit of truth that would guide his disciples into all truth.
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We do not know That is from his pages 123 to 124
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Now though Brown has taken a different view on this as we have seen He informs us that the scholars who have held that the paraclete was not originally the
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Holy Spirit and he tells us Christian tradition has identified this figure with the
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Holy Spirit, but scholars like spitter Della Fosse Windish sassy
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Boltman and Betts have doubted whether this Identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the paraclete was once an independent
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Salavific figure later confused with the Holy Spirit That's on his page 1111 1135 it would be interesting then for us to see what some of these scholars had to say about This subject
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Rudolph Boltman in his commentary on John's gospel rights. It is clear that the evangelist has taken the figure
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Has taken the figure It is clear that the evangelist has taken the figure of the paraclete from his source and Interpreted it in the context of Christian tradition as the hagi on Numa the
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Holy Spirit That's on its page 1566 it and it is clear He writes further from chapter 14 verse 16 that the source taught that there were two sendings of two paracletes
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Jesus and his successor the one following another John Roman Informs us of the opinion of another of these scholars
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He writes Herman Sasse known that now known as a system attrition of conservative stamp
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Argued that the paraclete was a human personality one filled with the Spirit a prophet who would proclaim
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Christ and Creatively continue his revelation just what the author of the fourth gospel did in that case the evangelist himself would be the paraclete
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Even though the final version of the book Identifies the paraclete with the Spirit Windish writes
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The paraclete of the second and fifth sayings on the other hand deviates widely from his original function
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He does not deal with the salvation and the protection of individuals But with the main thing the revelation of the teaching of Jesus his task is teaching
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Maintaining and completing the historical revelation in Jesus. He has a definite message to deliver
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He is bearer of a tradition already extant and bearer of a new
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Revelation supplementing and completing it He is did ask a loss and prophetess teacher of tradition and prophet in one and the same person
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That's on his page 17 So then ladies and gentlemen I put before you that it is possible to see in all of these descriptions that the
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Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is Meant first that he was the Prophet like Moses Second that he fulfilled the promise that God made to Abraham and his son
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Ishmael a third that he is the one described in the Song of Solomon Especially in chapter 5 verse number 16, which says he is altogether lovely
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For that he fulfills the expectation of that prophet that it is that is still felt in the
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New Testament Especially in the pages of the gospel according to John the first seven chapters where people anticipate the coming of that Prophet still the
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Prophet like Moses and since from Peter's speech It is obvious that Jesus in his first coming did not yet fulfill the demands of the
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Prophet like Moses meaning that he was not a temporal ruler and there is an Expectation that when he comes back in the glorious days, he will be a temporal ruler
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Therefore we conclude he did not fulfill that prediction and therefore he was not that Prophet like Moses yet Muhammad therefore has beat him to it and has been the
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Prophet like Moses and finally I Have shown ladies and gentlemen that the
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Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the paraclete mentioned in the gospel according to John in chapters 15 and 16 when these chapters are read as an earlier form of The saying of Jesus then chapter 14 as I have already demonstrated
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Finally, there are many of you who may not require any proof Why do you need a proof that Muhammad is the
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Prophet of God the United Church of Canada is one of Canada's largest? Protestant denominations in a recent paper, which can be read on their website and they say
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Christians cannot of course affirm Muhammad as the seal of the prophets to do so would mean affirming for Christians the primacy of the
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Quran over the gospel of Jesus However, we believe that it is possible for Christians to affirm
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Muhammad as one of a number of unique voices who followed in the prophet traditions of Abraham Moses and Jesus or in other words to affirm the prophetic witness of Muhammad on page 33 of their printed
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Edition. So finally I put before you that not only can a Muslim see that Muhammad is a prophet of God But it is possible also for our
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Christian friends to appreciate the Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him as they read the pages of the
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Holy Bible. Thank you very much All right. So there you have in its entirety straight off of the
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YouTube video and a really annoying timekeeper I had not noticed before because I've only listened to the mp3 of it
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Running up and putting pieces of paper right on top of what you're reading. Oh I wouldn't have allowed that.
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But anyway, there you have his opening statement. I would like to read you In his rebuttal in the same debate
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Shabir said the following words I believe that dr Shorosh wants to prove by one way or another that the Prophet Muhammad learned from others and so he
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Supposes you can suppose a lot of things and the Vinci code is supposed that Jesus went along with Mary and they had a child
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And the bloodline survives in France or wherever you can suppose a lot of things But as a
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New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman puts it nicely in his book on this one has to have real facts and evidence
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You cannot quote a 13th century book like Sira al -halabiya. You have to go to the original documents.
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Dr. Shorosh and find out what was waraka Ibn Nafl not the suppositions of others that agree with your own
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Suppositions. Well what we just heard was the biggest connection of suppositions
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I've ever heard Take one little statement from one liberal Western scholar and one little statement over here and start
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Stringing them together on a string never mind if none of them ever did that None of them would would would agree with the conclusions you've come up with but you just string all these
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These things together and and even when you start off with it, he suggests this
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Within five minutes for Shabir. It's a fact Scholars tell us this even if it's the scholar mentioning a possibility
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Over here and not putting any weight on it or even developing it all of a sudden all of scholarship has now spoken
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But even more so listen to these words uttered by Shabir Ali himself to Robert Maury in the 1990s and listen and then listen to what think about what we just heard and You'll have a good idea of one of the things
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I'm gonna need to say in London quote What surprises me however is that some
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Christians feel they can attack the Quran in this particular way? And they don't realize that it is shooting themselves in the foot when they use this method
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Because the same method disproves also the Quran. I think he would have meant there disproves also the Bible however dr.
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More you have an interesting way of going about this because when dr. More uses this particular method dr.
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More he says that he is a Western scholar, but he forgets for the moment that he is also a
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Christian Does he wear two hats one says a Western scholar and then as a
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Christian? I would like dr. Morey to wear one hat so that then we can pin him down and say this is what you should believe in if You say that this is your method then believe neither in the
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Quran nor the Bible We have already seen to the dr. Morey disparages the miracles for example camels coming out of a rock no, that's foolish
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But do we disparage the miracles that are mentioned in the Bible too if we believe that miracles are true
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Then we should find some different way some other way of denying that a certain miracle took place or not
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Not that we disparage a miracle So we have to make up our minds if we are believers in God We cannot deny that these things are true and we cannot use that particular method by which the
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Western scholars disbelieve in both the Quran and the Bible and quote
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Which is the most perfect description I have ever heard of Shabir Ali's own approach
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That's exactly what he's doing When he is a Muslim talking about the Quran he wears his
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Muslim hat and he believes in Revelation And he believes in prophets, and he believes God can can
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Preserve his word, but then when he talks about the New Testament he can chop it up into little pieces later on the debate
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He chided Maury for not reading the Quran in context and allowing the Quran to speak
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Yet if we as Christians quote John 14 is relevant to John 16 Oh, well you see that that's been added in later soon
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Consistency Consistency is a hallmark of truth and an inconsistent argument is a sign of a failed argument is it not well anyway
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So how would you have responded that is the question that we asked today? Lord will and we'll be talking to you
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Thursday on the dividing line gonna be remote so we'll see we'll do our best Hopefully see you then
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God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at PO box 3 7 1 0 6
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That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks