From Jihad to Jesus

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife. I spent the first.

Ergun Caner’s Focus on the Family Testimony and the Problem of Embellishment

17 years of my life assuming that you as Christians hated me. Does that make sense? I mean, I've never been in a church I've never really been around too many Christians and coming to America. I've lived under the Misconception that you hated me as a Muslim.

So there you go. You recognize the music you recognize the program this was Monday on focus on the family from jihad to Jesus Ergon Kanner and No one is going to question that Ergon Kanner is a good speaker.

You can tell by the cadence by the the tone of his voice that he is seeking to Create a particular emotional response in his hearers, and he's accomplishing that and the great problem, of course that exists is That everything in the context that he is presenting to you is simply untrue.

It may have a worthy goal To encourage us to witness to our Our Muslim friends but the fact the matter is we can document that this man was here from the time he was two and a half years old and While the possibility still remains of some trip to Turkey between two and a half and seven and a half years of age From seven and a half onwards.

There was a court order saying that he could not leave the continental United States and So all the stuff about living in Ankara and and watching You know as we're gonna hear the Dukes of Hazzard and and broken English and and all the rest of stuff is just all made up and the big problem is when you Embellish your story.

So as to then join it to your gospel presentation That's that's where the problem is that's that's where repentance needs to be in unstated confession and repentance and abandonment and That's what's not happening in this situation today.

We're going to be listening to this program it's not all that long and But today I linked to an excellent excellent article by Tom Chantry on This particular issue. It's a lengthy article because he goes through a bunch of stuff about Ambrose the the historical writer that I I did not even know about evidently, I Of course, this is because I don't necessarily read in this area but I guess there's questions about the author of The book upon which band of brothers was based and and all sorts of stuff like that and and I didn't didn't even know it.

But he.

Goes through that first and his own experience of that to then lead lay foundation for a discussion of what has happened with with Ergon Kanner and It's very very useful. So I put the link up today. I hope you'll take the time to look.

I believe there are five blog articles on that particular subject for you to take a look at but I want to get through this. And then I want to invite anyone who wishes to argue that I have Done wrong in addressing this issue.

That I have in some way been unfair. This shouldn't be something we should talk about. This should only be done in private whatever your objection might be to the fact that we have pressed for a Honest answering of honest questions regarding Ergon Kanner's claims.

Regarding his his life his being trained as a jihadist and the Islamic jihad and All the things that have taken place particularly since I was in London in February. Give us a call. It's gonna take us a while to get through this, but we'll get to you at the end of the program.

Let's listen to the focus on the family program respond to it as it is moving along.

Focus on the Family Introduction to Ergun Caner

And after listening to that little audio clip I have a question for you. I wonder if when you meet someone from another culture you feel rather uncomfortable. Especially if they're from say a Middle Eastern country.

Do you wonder what they believe and how they might live out those beliefs if so? I'm pretty sure you're not alone in and I just comment right here.

We all need to know these things, but we need to know them from people who've actually lived the life. Living as Living in Ohio. It's not who lived in Ohio whose dad was a Muslim. Okay. It wasn't a Muslim scholar.

He wasn't a Muslim cleric is he's gonna claim in this but he was a Muslim and maybe even a wahhabi Muslim. Very conservative Muslim, that's fine. But that was especially after the divorce. His non custodial parents you we do need to know these things, but we need to know them from people that can actually speak to us from a Real position of of expertise in that.

Unfamiliarity with the general world of Islam and on today's focus on the family. We'll hear more from the man. We just heard from there a former Sunni Muslim I'm John Fuller along with focus on the family president and CEO Jim Daly and Jim.

This is this is one of those broadcasts that I think will take some of our listeners a little bit by surprise. Yeah, but I hope they listen all the way through because there really is some great stuff in here.

Well, there is John and you know, our guest is very distinctive in that. He's experienced both the Muslim world, by the way.

We're not exactly sure when this is recorded, but this sounds like one of the early versions. Oh, you got it. You got a date on that?

He mentions in either they mentioned. No, they mentioned this was done it after 9-eleven in 2001.

So this is for 2001. Okay, because it was a Prestonwood. I just didn't. I Knew I knew what church was that? I just didn't have a specific date. Okay. All right. Thanks as well as Christianity.

You know, which makes him uniquely qualified to address today's topic at dr Ergun Kanner has been the president of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and graduate school at Liberty University since 2005 and John imagine that this is the first Ex-muslim who's become the president of an evangelical seminary here in the United States.

Well, he was raised a son of an Islamic leader and then in 1982 after immigrating to the United States.

He converted to the Christian faith. Yeah after immigrating the United States in 1969. You know, there's a little gap there that.

And.

Consequently because of his Christian beliefs he was disowned by his family that he was disowned by his father.

With whom he was not living and had not been living for quite some time. I've heard this over. I was disowned by my family. His mother didn't disown him. His grandmother didn't disown him. The people he was living with did not disown him.

And again it you say well, yeah. But it's still it's. And the amazing thing about the way people think is yeah. But still be bad to be disowned by your dad. Well, of course, but that's not the same thing.

He doesn't bring up the fact that there had been this divorce. He didn't be like the fact he's not living with his father because he's created this mythology.

That that precludes an honest recounting of these events. That's a very common thing John when this happens. But that's only part of the story and the rest of the story has a very interesting twist.

Which is why I said listeners should plan to stay with us this entire broadcast or perhaps request a CD or go online. And listen to the entire presentation. Airgun has either written or co-authored 17 books many of those with his brother emir including the best-seller Christian jihad, which is about the 1300 year old conflict between Islam and Christianity and together they also wrote the gold medallion winner unveiling Islam.

Which gives readers a glimpse inside the life of a Muslim and will encourage our listeners to ask for that book from us today. Now since the 9-eleven terrorist attacks, dr. Kanner has become a national speaker Representing evangelical Christianity in the media.

He's debated Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus and other religious leaders at.

Someone of course is just reading from a prepared bio. Which is no longer the bio that's actually on the website, but probably they did this, you know. Preparation for this prior to the cleaned up bio.

So that we still have the claims of the debates that never were at college campuses in the US and around the world. And he has three master's degrees and two doctorates including a Doctor of theology from the University of South Africa.

So he's as you said uniquely qualified and he's a highly educated man as well.

That's true, John. But you know more important than his education of course is the heart change that he had in his conversion to Christianity. And that's why we're airing the message today.

And you know, I've traveled to a number of Muslim and that's why we're airing the message today to because That heart change is real. The problem is that heart change should also result in a love of truth and to connect That heart change to the Muslims that are listening this who know the truth.

With the gospel Jesus Christ is to undercut its very truthfulness and its foundation.

That's the problem Muslim countries and one of the things that I experienced myself was that uncomfortableness. But yet when you get people it's amazing how similar humanity is. We want similar things we have similar needs and it's been a privilege actually to work in that part of the world to see people open up to.

Come to a better understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and there are exciting things going on in the Middle East.

Well, maybe we can come back at the end of this program and give a little update on that. For focus on the family's perspective let's go ahead and listen in now to Ergen Kanner as he describes his life as a Sunni Muslim and his Turn to Christianity and I'll mention this presentation was recorded at Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas.

I was born in Sweden raised in Turkey came to America in 1978.

Okay, this is like we said is one of the earlier editions and we just know that that's not true. He didn't come here in 1978. He came here before 1970 1969 according to his mother's sworn deposition in the divorce papers.

I.

Will someone argue that he just you know one day asked and mom said and and no because 1978 he graduates in 82. I Mean, he's only graduate if he graduated in 82. He's only you're you're behind me. I Remember what was going on in 78 77.

I remember where I was. I have very clear memories. I was working, you know. There there just isn't any way you can be eight nine ten years off it just doesn't. I'm sorry. It's not it's not possible. That has to be a purposeful Emendation a changing of one's history and for what reason to create all the rest of stuff this living in Turkey.

I was living in Turkey and therefore This lays the foundation for.

Everything else I came through when I came to America. I came through Brooklyn, New York. I.

Cannot confirm or deny that. We don't have any evidence one way or the other but one thing's for certain when he came he was only two and a half.

So.

What they would have been doing in Brooklyn picking up languages or anything else would have been irrelevant. At the age that he was at that point in time of all places, which is why I learned English.

No, he learned English in Ohio. Bless God.

God has such a great sense of humor that my wife. We've been married now seven years is a deep.

Deep.

Deep Southern Bell if you could imagine. Our wedding was like the Godfather and the Beverly Hillbillies all gathering together in a big Debate all as if it isn't even ironic enough. My son thinks he's a cowboy at two-and-a-half since we've lived here now for about a year.

You know, I went to Criswell College. I'm actually a graduate of the Criswell College aside from being a professor there. I teach systematic theology and church history there but when I came to Dallas, I had never been to Dallas before and I had read up on some books about what it was like to live in Texas because I wanted to fit in and So I came here.

Remember I English is not my first language. I'll explain that in a moment now. It's fascinating to me.

I've noticed he's done this a number of different times. English is not my first language. But he never tells him what his first language is. He says he lives in Turkey. So he leaves it to them to assume what his first language is.

What is his first language?

Swedish.

It's not Arabic. It has nothing to do. It's it's not any of the languages of Turkey. It's Swedish. Ymir even mentions this. I've listened to a Ymir giving his story and it's amazing how much light it sheds on the Ergen-Kanner story.

But Ymir says his first language was Swedish and he was born here. So clearly that would have been Ergen's first language, but he never tells them that. He just lets them fill in the blanks there without ever actually saying well.

Actually, I speak Arabic because as he admitted briefly anyways on February 25th and his thing that size language.

At all. I came here thinking that I would fit in and I bought boots big. Huge boots and I bought a belt buckle. That I'm not kidding. I bought a big look like a hubcap belt buckle and had a hat and Went to the West End and Well, I didn't fit in at all.

But he see it was a misconception. I thought that everyone in Texas dressed like that. The only thing I'd ever seen about Texas was a television show called Dallas and Dallas I.

Did read I did read someone who? Knew Ergen and then heard him speak for the first time once and was shocked. When all of a sudden this accent appeared that he had never ever heard before in his conversations with Ergen Kanner.

So Dallas all of a sudden all of a sudden pops up. What's an Aggie?

By the way, I Had to ask someone what that was. I thought it was. I understood it was agricultural but I find out that it's a college. All I'd understood about Texas was What I'd seen on television and it was a misconception.

The reason I tell you that is Because misconceptions play a large part of what's taken place since September the 11th of this year. Especially in my life. Ah.

This year. There you go. There's a 2001 right there September 11th of this year. So yeah, this is pretty close.

I'm not just I'm not just a Muslim and not just a Sunni and I wasn't just involved in the Islamic jihad. I Was the son of a mozzine?

That's the cleric the one who does the call to prayer at the beginning. Um, no, he wasn't a cleric. He was not an imam and People have now interviewed the people at the mosque. They didn't even have that position at that time.

He may have led in prayers a few times. That does not make you a cleric. This is a common common conversion thing where you exaggerate The religious significance of things of your of your former life, etc, etc.

To try to you know, again just increase your capital.

Shall we say as a con beginning of the prayer time the one who climbs the minarets?

Well, they didn't have a minaret by there, by the way.

And when I Try to say this in a nice way I spent the first 17 years of my life assuming that you as Christians.

Hated me, of course for 17 years of his life. He was spent around a lot of Christians. I mean, let's think about for just a second. We know what high school he went to. What percentage of the students in the late 1970s at a high school in the Midwestern United States would have called themselves Muslims or.

Atheists or.

Humanists. Very small. What would have been the majority of? The students in a high school in Ohio in the late 1970s. Christians. Christians. So again, it's all you know, I want to communicate this idea that we have misconceptions about Muslims.

That's true. But I communicate that with people and I'm Scottish. I didn't have to make anything up. I didn't have to you know, embellish something. That's what. Just just I just don't understand this.

Did he really think no one would believe him. I guess he has felt no one would ever listen to him. So let's make things up as we go along.

I mean, I've never been in a church. I've never really been around too many Christians. There's not that many of them in Turkey or in Sweden.

But there are plenty in Ohio. That's again if you're standing there in front of an audience in a church saying this How can you do that? I just don't I don't I don't understand it. And coming to America.

I've lived under the.

Misconception that you hated me as a Muslim. That really affected a lot of what I did in my younger years. I'm not really proud of the fact that I'm part of it was part of the Islamic jihad. I'm not proud of the fact that it actually was my people who were involved in what took place in the horror but I want to spend about 15 minutes explaining to you why they did what they did and Perhaps answering some of your questions as to what may happen next.

I.

Wasn't a nominal Muslim. I was a good Muslim. There's there's the issue. Because if he was a nominal Muslim if he was a Muslim raised in the United States and Especially after his parents divorce, he only sees the active Muslim parent every other weekend and five weeks during the summer.

And If as Emir says by this point by very early on in their life Their mother had become a hippie. She had been raised Swedish Lutheran converted to Islam to marry the Ergon's father and Then once they got the United States, she became a hippie.

So he's not even living within that context. So the the big push is I was a real Muslim. Islamic jihad.

I.

And that's just that there's there's the issue there's the the assertion has to be made to try to embellish and to you know, the Gotta admit it has gotten many a TV camera in his face. It's gotten him behind many a pulpit so There's a reason to do it, I guess 17 years of my life.

I was the equivalent of a preacher's kid. No, he was not. He was not the son of any mom. That's just I'm sorry leading in the prayers once wall does not make any mom and.

So raised in the mosque, so to speak just like preachers kids are raised in the church. No, and like every good Muslim I followed the five pillars of Islam. There are two things. There's actually three things that I say to people when I speak in churches and conventions and such.

About Islam. Three things that I want to make a point on and I'm gonna move right into the testimony part. Number one. You heard it on just about every talk show. Allah Jehovah, they're basically the same God.

Now you're talking about divine nicknames. Please listen to me on this. No Orthodox Muslim in the world Would ever say that Jehovah and Allah are the same God?

Well, you know I can agree with the overarching sentiment here. There are many things that Ernie Cantor says about Islam that are true. The problem is when you join them with a bunch of lies, then you're painting all of us as being untruthful.

But when it comes to this particular issue, I have met Orthodox Muslims that would say that actually. But they also will clearly recognize between the distinction between how we worship God and how they worship God and the differences that exist in our understanding of God.

But the general point is is true from the Islamic side. They recognize how different our conception of God is from theirs and. So in general, I would agree. But again already having poisoned the context with all the fraud it it's just wrong to be hearing these these discussions within this context.

No Muslim in the world and.

I hope no honest authentic and intelligent Christian would ever make that statement as well. We are taught in Islam that Allah is creator and he is judge.

But we have a verse in the Quran that says a lot loose on Buddha's. I have no idea what that was. I tried to look it up. He gives what he thinks what he thinks. He was saying. Allah has no son. Allah has no son.

Now again, I am a student of Arabic. I didn't take the time I was gonna talk to my Arabic tutor.

But I.

Have no idea what he just said and since he has now admitted that Arabic is not his Mother tongue. Maybe it's some other language. It's a translation of the Quran. I don't know Even though it uses the term Allah.

But I did not if I would never hear that as a As an appropriate translation, but I want to check that out a little bit more because I couldn't even find the specific verse he was talking about and I really don't think that Erkin would probably answer an email where I was asking for specific references either.

Allah and Jehovah are not the same not by Muslim standards and certainly not by the Word of God. The second thing I keep hearing is that don't you get tired of them saying jihad is a struggle. Jihad is a struggle.

This is not the understanding of jihad. Do you know that most of the people? most of the Muslims Who were here on the bombing day were shocked and horrified by what took place? Most Muslims were shocked by the bombing.

Do you know why? Because here in America jihad is theory. But from where I come from and from Europe and from the Middle East jihad is sadly a fact of life. I Was raised in it. It's one thing to say that most Muslims don't believe in jihad.

That's fine. You can talk about that all you want but to say that Islam doesn't teach it is wrong. And now I'll tell you why as a good Muslim. I followed the five pillars of Islam. Until I was 17 years old the first pillar of Islam is the Kalima the creed.

It is what every Muslim says at the beginning of every day. He's been a man. I don't know how I'm doing. I don't know him.

That's not the Kalima. Sorry, he's confusing the Shahada with the beginning of Surah Tafatiha. Now you do say that in the prayers. But that's not the words the Kalima. The Shahada the the bearing of testimony, they're not the same thing and I just I mean, I know what the difference is and I don't claim to have been raised in the Islamic jihad.

It is our.

Credo that we say beginning and ending of every day at the beginning and ending of every meal.

Salat zakat and swan are. It's not swan. It's Salm. I.

Mean.

I'm sorry, but At least I pronounce it correctly if you if you and. This is not the only time that he's made this error. Now against people say well, you know, he's just you know, you stand in front of a bunch of people.

You mispronounce things over and over again in many different contexts. I'm sorry, if that was the only mistake then it would be picky youn to pick on it. There's no question about that. But when you start adding all these things up it creates this mountain of Evidence that absolutely precludes you giving the man the benefit of the doubt.

It's prayer and fasting and almsgiving and. Five times a day even even when I was in high school even in Brooklyn, New York.

He wasn't in high school in Brooklyn, New York. He went to high school in Ohio.

I.

Doesn't he think someone might look this up? I mean there are there are yearbooks. There's classmates. .com, you know, I mean I.

Would get my prayer rug out of my closet out of my locker and roll it out in the in the bathroom.

Well, we've talked about that and according to Shake a circadi that would be really really unusual. But hey, you know, we've discussed it and do my prayer.

He would fast during the month of Ramadan.

Which in at least one instance he's described as being 40 days long. And let me tell you something. There is one thing that all Muslims know and that's how long the month of Ramadan is especially especially and We chuckle about that because you know the fastings of like that, but especially because of something called Laylat al-qadr.

Laylat al-qadr the night of power and the night of power is on one of the odd numbered nights the last 10 days of Ramadan and it's on the night of power that your prayers will have far more efficacy than in any other time of prayer and so Seeking Laylat al-qadr is extremely important amongst all Muslims Sunni or Shiite.

So there's no way you would think. Because if you think Ramadan is 40 days long then you would be looking for Laylat al-qadr on the wrong night. Sorry it. And again they even have retreats In mosques where you actually stay up all night in the mosque on the night you believe is gonna be Laylat al-qadr and So, I'm sorry, but again the devout jihadi knows these things.

The guy living with his mother who's become a hippie doesn't know these things and that's what's going on.

I did everything that a Muslim should do except for Hajj, I Never made the pilgrimage to Mecca. And now I'm about to tell you why. When we talk about who Jesus is to the Muslim you understand that you really have to come face to face with a simple Philosophical point.

And I know not everybody here is a Christian and I know just about every place I've spoken since September 11th there have been Muslims there and I am Gonna operate under the assumption that there are Muslims here.

And I want you to hear me very well. Sura 4 4 says that Mary gave birth to Jesus as pureborn not virgin born, but pureborn. And the and the Quran teaches that Jesus is a prophet.

You know, I hadn't caught that before. I'm wondering if he's asserting they don't actually believe in the virgin birth. Which they do. That sound like what he was saying there when he differentiated between virgin born and pureborn.

But they do believe in the virgin birth. So I'm not I'm not making a big deal out of that. But is that what he's saying? Because I I just honest question the way that he put it. It sounded like he was emphasizing something and Jesus as a prophet was a good man.

But in the Kalima you say there is only one God Allah and Muhammad is his final prophet. He is the seal of the prophets. Please hear this. There's no way Jesus could have been a prophet.

No, I just stopped that for a moment because he just rightly defined the Kalima and. Yeah, we just brought up surah 4 4 it has nothing to do with that at all does it. The discussion of Mary and the virgin birth is surah 19, but surah 4 4 has absolutely Nothing to do with Mary at all.

That's interesting. I hadn't even looked at that. He did say surah 4 4 didn't he? Did I miss that? I miss hear that. No, you heard the same 4 4. Oops we got another one anyway. Interesting very very interesting.

We press on no way at all.

You see even according to extra-biblical sources Jesus Christ was condemned and was tried and was indicted for claiming blasphemy. He claimed that he was God. If Jesus Christ claimed he was God and was subsequently crucified for claiming that he was God There's no way he could have been a prophet.

You see if he claimed to be what he was God and knew that he wasn't that that Jesus was actually a fraud. A Fraud can't be a prophet. The other opportunity or the other option is that perhaps Jesus thought he was God But in fact wasn't.

He was under a delusion and If Jesus was insane He couldn't be a prophet. The only other option is That Jesus is who he said he is. That Jesus was who he said he was. And you have to at least accept that simple Philosophical statement.

He was either deluded or deceptive. Or he was divine. I Came face to face with that when I was 17 years old. It wasn't the elocution of a pastor. It was a high school friend. You understand he didn't care that I was a preacher's son and wazin son.

He again. Exaltation of a position that didn't exist and it's simply an embellishment.

Invited me to revival and I thought he had said revival. Remember, I want to go back to the question of assumption. I assumed you hated me and Everything I had been taught about Christians. Everything I've been taught about you didn't play out.

I mean you didn't come across as hateful or hate-filled or vengeful. You actually seemed to kind of nice. Seemed kind of loving gracious certain.

Hadn't any of the Christians that he had been around in school for so many years likewise seemed that way. Oh. But he was in Turkey.

And so this friend of mine Invited me to church. He said I want you to come to revival. I thought he said Rebible and I'd never owned a Bible never held a Bible.

Again. That sounds great. Rebible.

But.

Could anyone really imagine that that's true since he was here. Since he was two-and-a-half. Has anyone in in the Ohio School District there. Could they really say this kind of. How do you say this with a straight face now?

He may not have had a Bible. That's fine. I'm not saying that he had a Bible. But this kind of. How would would anyone in Ergen Kanner's graduating class have been confused by the word revival. How could you pass an English class not having read certain English classics that talk about revival?

How could you have gotten through? US history without having heard about the first awakening and the second awakening and the revivalism of that time. Sorry, you couldn't do it. So again, it's just being made up and so I wanted to.

And I walked into that little church. My English was very poor. Huh? There was a great and glorious time where my hair was long.

His English was very poor. Again, the whole thing is all. My English is very poor cuz you know, I just hadn't been here very long see 78 82 you can understand that if he came here in 78 and this is 1982 then yeah.

You could understand. His English might not be all that great, but he's been here since 1969. Made up.

They didn't make fun of my accent. They didn't make fun of the clothes that I wore. They didn't make fun of the fact that I wore a turban a.

Turban. Really a turban. I'd love to see a picture of this because that is Arabic dress not Turkish dress. That's not Turkish dress. I'm sorry, but again Because of all of the falsehoods we've seen we have to challenge everything now.

You can't you can't accept anything at face value and. So are you. I would love to find some people who knew Eric and Kenner in high school? And ask them so did Eric and Kenner wear a turban? Did he did he wear you know?

Not speak good English. Be fascinating to hear the the results of interviews like that who lots of they didn't call me a towel head. I.

Got a lot of that outside of the church, but in that church.

The Conversion Testimony and the Claims of Muslim Identity

He had gotten a lot of that outside the church. That's interesting. That's interesting.

They loved me Monday night. I came Tuesday night. I came Wednesday night. I came Thursday night. I came. They continued to love me. You see a Muslim can be a good Muslim and still go to hell even in Islamic teaching.

You understand that a Muslim believes that there is a an NGO an angel on his right shoulder.

He just said in jail. In jail means gospel doesn't mean angel.

That's completely different word. And an angel on his left shoulder. The one on the right shoulder writes down all the good that he does. The one on the left shoulder writes down all the bad that he does.

Even if a Muslim does his rock at his prayers every day even though he abstains from that which he must abstain and does that. Which he must do. Even if a Muslim follows all the teachings, but has more bad than good He still goes to hell.

Now if you hear this point you understand much more now than perhaps you did when you walked in. You see only one thing erases the bad on the scale. Death martyrdom in jihad.

Now it is true that the only promise that is provided by Allah of Direct entrance into The gardens is if a person dies in jihad in defense of the Muslim State. No question about them. However We need to accurately understand that the only sin that Allah cannot forgive if a person dies upon that sin in that sin is.