Let's Talk About the Papacy with Cameron Bertuzzi

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:34

And greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White. We have a special program today. We are joined on Zoom by Cameron Bertuzzi Better known as capturing

00:48

Christianity, though. I'm really doubtful that his wife or kids call him Cap I hope not because that would be really weird

00:56

Be very strange. I don't hear him at all. Rich. Are we good on that? I just unmuted myself.

01:02

Okay, no problem. No problem And he's cool enough to wear a backwards cap Which means he's probably young enough to be younger than my youngest.

01:11

So Back and back in my days that that meant Did you were like at the back of the class or something like that?

01:18

But now it's just the opposite So I I don't know. I've not figured all these things out. I'm an old man, but Capturing Christianity tell us for those in our audience that aren't familiar with you

01:29

What is that all about and when did you get started? Yeah, so Capturing Christianity actually sprung as a response.

01:37

Can you hear me? Yeah, it's it's really loud on my end It's it's distorting a little bit. So It's it sounds like you're screaming.

01:44

So I'm trying to get rich to turn those things down It's great to be here with you

01:50

James I know that you've you've done some shows about some of the things that I've done and it's just it's just great.

01:56

It's I appreciate The magnitude of this event and I think it's really cool that you invited me on and that we're able to do this

02:04

So I'll just tell you a little about my ministry capturing Christianity. So it started as actually as a right stemmed from my brother becoming an atheist about ten years ago at this point and I had a conversation with him when

02:17

I initially heard about it and the conversation did not go well So after that point I started to look into things a lot deeper

02:23

I wanted to really find out is there good evidence for the truth of Christianity? I came across guys like Wayne Lane Craig Josh Rasmussen eventually, but a lot of these guys they eventually became heroes of mine and you know in the in the sense of like They have these well,

02:41

I'm kind of getting ahead of myself here. Let me just continue the story here. So So I'm a little bit nervous.

02:47

It's a little bit nervous to be on here with you James, even though I can't see you anymore Oh Yeah, so so my story is

02:55

I eventually found that there's all of this evidence for the truth of Christianity And I eventually wanted to share that with people and that's why

03:01

I eventually started out capturing Christianity as a blog I was starting to write little articles and stuff on different apologetics related issues

03:08

And then eventually it turned into a YouTube channel. And so now we've got a YouTube channel about 125 ,000 subscribers,

03:15

I think at this point and that's basically that's the short story of how this all came about Okay, and and tell me tell me a little bit if you could what about your church background where things like that ground very charismatic very charismatic and so that's that's something that I've kind of been well,

03:36

I want to say struggled with because when I started to learn about philosophy and apologetics and theology,

03:43

I Really realized how far away My background was from that like the charismatic church was not they didn't really appreciate theology at all

03:53

I went back recently actually to the church that I once attended and the stuff that they were saying was

04:00

Crazy it was crazy. And so that but that's my background is charismatic. And so at this point

04:06

I'm just still wading through the different theological issues I don't really know where I sit on a lot of these things as you've actually noted on your program so Okay, so so let me let me ask you because because I don't

04:18

I don't know what the background is and So Most charismatic churches,

04:25

I know of some exceptions, but the way you described it doesn't sound like this would be an exception most charismatic churches and a lot of fundamentalist churches church history goes back to Billy Graham and with charismatic churches to some other you know

04:39

Well -known person 50 years ago, but the idea of a connection to the early church or even to the

04:46

Reformation Very very unusual amongst those groups. Not a not a lot of self -awareness as to Where our church is in relationship to other churches

05:00

History things like that. Is that where you would where you would have been as far as you're free?

05:07

Okay Absolutely hundred percent. Okay. Yeah, I don't even think I heard the name Augustin until I actually started to look into things

05:14

Wow. Okay. All right, so When I don't remember I don't remember the first thing that I saw with you

05:21

I don't remember if it have you done anything on presuppositionalism had somebody on to talk about that Richard Richard Howe Yeah, okay.

05:27

All right, so that's that was that was that before after The Discussion with the

05:35

Matt fellow the Roman Catholic by the name of Matt because I it's hard for me. Yeah Yeah, I think it was before so that one came out in 2019 or early 2020

05:46

Okay. All right. Okay, cuz I I was trying to remember what was the first First thing that I'd run into from you

05:53

I'm not I don't spend a whole lot of time on YouTube to be honest with you if I see stuff It's because somebody sends it to me

06:01

I I'm a pastor of a rather one of the pastors of a very very active

06:07

Church you've probably heard of apologia, but all the things that we're doing is just insane and do a lot of traveling and Doing the dividing line and everything else.

06:17

I I'm dependent upon other people to send me stuff and so maybe the first thing was the thing with with how

06:24

But then when you had the discussion if I recall correctly was primarily at least I commented primarily on John chapter 6 one of the things

06:31

I said was This fellow doesn't know his background. He doesn't know why he is what he is and One of the things that that would prompt that from me is at least in in my background in my days if you're gonna be doing a

06:50

Minute, you know ministry online or whatever it is. We call it today That it's sort of important that you know where you stand

06:58

Because what when I first started dealing Mormonism is what got me into apologetics in 1982 about Six weeks after I got married.

07:10

I was 19. She was 18 I Met with my first two more missionaries in serious discussion two times in one week elders read and reason that's what eventually led to Alpha Omega ministries and going up to Salt Lake City every six months and Debates up there and all the rest that stuff and everything at Alpha Omega has done since then

07:31

Starting very very early and one of the first things that I recognized was if I'm gonna be criticizing where they're coming from Their history of Joseph Smith the

07:41

Joseph Smith's false prophecies Archaeology in the Book of Mormon false prophecies into doctrine covenants, whatever Then they're gonna be asking questions about where I'm coming from now

07:51

I'm a PK so I was I was raised a preacher's kid and My dad went to Moody Bible Institute and so I had a whole lot more than a lot of people did but still it was taking church history in seminary that just lit my fire and Really gave me the opportunity of knowing where in the world we are in relationship to everything else

08:15

Thankfully, I had a really good church history professor if I hadn't who knows what

08:20

I would have ended up doing or anything else But you know, I've taught church history since 1990 now and I and I love it

08:27

But I also know that I'm weird for that. Most most Protestants have no earthly idea where in the world are coming from and Hence are not

08:35

Protestants of conviction. They're just Protestants of well, that's what I am That's I don't know anything else.

08:42

And so as I've been listening to the conversations that have been taking place It's just been another example

08:49

It's not there's anything wrong with you you just are very representative of a lot of people that just Your your your background

09:00

Has not provided you with a foundation for knowing Why you are what you are you are what you are by default and therefore when you run into new things it's like I've never heard that before and I have no earthy idea why

09:13

I Have not heard about for and I really don't know what to think about it That's what

09:19

I was hearing in your first conversation with Matt am I wrong No Okay.

09:25

All right. All right, so Fast forward you've now been meeting with people like Well, can

09:33

I can I say something about that? Sure. Sure. Go ahead. I think I have something that's relevant here. So my mission with my

09:40

Channel with capturing Christianity is to have experts like you on the on the channel like people who are actually experts on the topics

09:47

So I I come at this as a layman and I let my audience know that up front. I'm a layman I'm not an expert and that's but that's the point of the ministry is it's really to I mean the ultimate goal

09:58

I would love to see my brother come back to Christ, but That's kind of why I do what

10:03

I do is as a layman is I don't have the degrees I don't have the accolades But what

10:08

I can do is I can host an interview with an expert to get their ideas out to the public

10:13

So that's the vast majority of what I do on my channel and yet in some you're doing you but you do have to have

10:19

Standards, I mean, you're not gonna you're not gonna present somebody as an expert who teaches at BYU.

10:25

Are you I? Don't even know what BYU is Brigham Young University the premier

10:31

LDS school in Provo, Utah Okay. Yeah, so probably not

10:36

Well, unless unless I was hosting a dialogue I mean someone from that university and like a

10:42

Christian now that might be a case where I would have someone from that background on right, but you so there is a you have to have some type of general idea of what defines the

10:55

Christian faith and that gives you your guidelines as to Who you're gonna have on and in what context whether it's gonna be a debate

11:03

Yeah, or whether it's you're gonna be presenting someone as hey, this guy has really good positive Stuff that you can trust and and and things like that, right?

11:11

So yeah, that is an important aspect of things and and I sort of assumed that When you know,

11:18

I could be wrong and assuming that I mean YouTube has has produced You got to understand when

11:25

I did my first debate with Jerry Matitix at st Cyprian's Catholic Church in Long Beach in August of 1990

11:33

There was no internet despite what certain Democratic Runners for the presidency may say there was no internet and There was no social media.

11:45

There was something called BBS is I'm sure you've never heard of that before a bulletin board system It would take three days for your messages to get back and forth between people, but I was part of it

11:54

I was I was it was there and it was it was interesting and I put a lot of time into it

12:00

But anyway, there wasn't any of those types of things. And so if you were going to Get out there and say something you sort of had to Build a foundation upon which to be able to do so and now anybody, you know can can throw things out there and so YouTube has changed everything and so going back to the important aspect of these things, so I listened to what you were saying in that first conversation and And I'm functionally

12:30

I did which The one with Matt on John 6 and stuff like that And right well, yeah, and I'm and I'm like Okay so the standard

12:44

Historically from the Reformation and even beforehand Stuff about this is not being brought up and it's frustrating to me

12:55

And so that's why I that's why someone sent it to me and said you need to listen to this and it's like, okay

13:01

Well, it wasn't brought up then so we'll bring it up because we've got a pretty decent audience. And so let's let's respond to it

13:08

Let's let's talk about these things because I've been doing debates with Roman Catholics And we've been discussing

13:14

John 6 and since the 90s and of course, we're just the current generation doing it

13:20

Is this this has been going on? For example, have you ever read Calvin's correspondence with Cardinal Sadaletto?

13:28

No Highly recommend it to you. It is right at the time of the Reformation Sadaletto was the

13:33

Bishop of Geneva got kicked Repeating that real quick. Yeah. Yeah Bishop Sadaletto s

13:38

I think it's s a d o le to I could be wrong about that But Bishop Sadaletto It's classic

13:46

Back and forth right at the raw time when people are dying on both sides of the

13:52

Reformation And is this related to the Eucharist? Covers a bunch of stuff

13:58

And the point is that these conversations that we're having Have been had over and over and over again but The vast majority of both

14:11

Protestants and Catholics today We're not connected enough with our history to know what resources are already there.

14:17

So we're reinventing the wheel over and over again So I think I mentioned in my review and I'm not sure if you

14:24

I would assume you you have listened You've watched the video more recently than I have Well, no,

14:30

I'm sorry. I'm talking about now. I'm talking about when I responded to you last week

14:38

And when you were on Trinity Radio, okay I mentioned a bunch of resources classic

14:47

Protestant works such as Good, Whittaker, Salmon These are in -depth scholarly historical sources that deal with the claims of Rome, the papacy, the

15:01

Early succession lists just all sorts of stuff like the Cheminettes the the Lutheran version of that What is that three volumes something like that?

15:08

They're they're huge massive resources and yet you

15:13

You probably wouldn't have found them in a Christian bookstore When there were

15:19

Christian bookstores, which was really nice day when we had Christian bookstores. We don't have any more but but they're still they're difficult to find even online and things like that and so these conversations have happened before and When we try to read, you know rebuild the wheel every generation

15:38

We don't necessarily do as well as the people before us be perfectly honest with you and so there's a that if there if you sensed any frustrations because man, there's so much out there and I'm not sure that you're hearing all those all the sides and getting all the information and Even the direction that you're going with it with the

15:59

Bayesian analysis and so on and so forth. We need to get into that When you listened to my response last week

16:07

Did you be fair I'll just say I didn't listen to the whole thing. I listened to most of it.

16:13

So, okay I actually I missed the resource. Did you the resources list? Did you well, I mentioned well one of the things

16:19

I said was I was sort of speaking to you and I and I said So if if this is how we're doing things because did you did you hear the discussion of Isaiah 22?

16:28

Yeah, okay One of the things I said was okay if if this is functioning in this major way for you

16:36

Have you looked at these? multi -volume Historical resources from the other side such as Whitaker good

16:47

Cheminette's salmon What are any of those names even familiar to you?

16:54

Most of them no, okay So I can familiar I am familiar though with the objections that you gave in the show

17:02

Okay, but So early said I heard those from a guy named

17:07

Gavin Ortland. Have you heard of him? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, okay Yeah, he's been the guy who's like the well him and another guy have been the two

17:16

Main people that I've been leaning from in terms of their objections to this typological argument, right?

17:23

it's a basically what I had said was What if there and I had held? I'd held this

17:30

Bunch of Photocopies that I had bound years and years ago patristic sources stuff out of means and stuff like that in regards to papacy

17:42

Eucharistic subjects, etc, etc, etc. And basically I said what if there's three pages in here that completely change all the calculations, but you've never seen them and Was raising the issue of you know

17:56

The issue of the papacy is an issue of ultimate authority once you accept the validity of the of the papacy all your

18:04

Calculations have to go from 92 % to 100 % You understand that I I think that's false okay, so so when the the

18:17

Bishop of Rome when when the Second Vatican Council identifies as perverse opinions

18:24

Anything other than what they say and that is that the Bishop of Rome is the infallible vicar of Christ on earth and everything else

18:31

Is a perverse opinion So you can only be 92 per and then they anathematize even thinking opposite to that now that now again, you'll find

18:41

Trust me Roman Catholics today, especially in the United States And Especially with the

18:50

Pope that we have today I I I personally don't think that Francis believes what Vatican one said

18:55

So that that's a that's a whole other issue that does need to be discussed. But when you read What was being written in?

19:03

1870 By the people who define these things. It's very clear exactly what they meant and exactly what the anathema meant and I know today it's sort of like well, you know, it just means you don't get to Be in our club.

19:18

That's not what it meant to them and That's one of the issues is is

19:23

I don't even know how you could start Plugging this kind of stuff into any kind of formula so as to have any meaningful impact upon making a decision about the claims of Rome because history

19:41

History doesn't work that way And it would require you personally to have more knowledge than any human being could ever possess in this life

19:52

Because there's there's tons of stuff that I've read and then there's tons of stuff. I haven't read

19:58

So so Bayes there may be a misunderstanding about what what Bayes is It's not like you don't have to consider everything in order to get a final analysis in the same way that I mean your objection

20:10

To my methodology what I would apply to any methodology that you use because I think in every case

20:17

There's always going to be something that you could have read that would impact your probabilistic judgments

20:22

Even if you don't use Bayes if you use just abductive reasoning more generally Yeah, I think that you're still gonna run into that issue.

20:29

So I'm not exactly sure like what is your objection here? Is it is it to Bayes or is it to like anyone coming to a final assessment of the papacy?

20:40

It's a recognition that the claim of the papacy is Absolutely ultimate and therefore it cannot be a matter of Okay 92 % is good enough

20:53

Rome doesn't say 92 % is good enough. That's not what Vatican 1 says Now you'll find you'll find lots of folks who are saying come on over.

21:01

No. No, you don't have to you can have disagreements It's okay. Look at all the people that disagree today and they don't get kicked out so on and so forth.

21:07

I Get it But that's that's that's not what the people who wrote those words

21:14

Originally intended and the point is once you accept that ultimate epistemological

21:20

Commitment then all the other stuff is now going to follow through with that.

21:25

So Bodily assumption of Mary Now it's are you gonna do it?

21:31

You can't once you accept the papacy You can't do an an analysis of the historical evidence of the bodily assumption of Mary because that's now a given

21:41

Given what you did before, right? Well, no, I think that's false because I don't think

21:47

I used to think this I used to think that once you had the papacy Catholicism just fell out of it But it's actually a

21:52

Protestant friend of mine that that showed me actually Catholicism doesn't necessarily follow if the papacy is true because It doesn't even entail that Linus was like the second

22:03

Pope so it could be the case that The papacy is true, but then no one just fulfilled that role and that I think that actually depends on the way that we define

22:13

The papacy because if we define the papacy in a way that it doesn't entail that Linus is the second

22:19

Pope Then we don't actually get that line from Linus and to the other Popes So I don't

22:25

I just don't think that the papacy entails Catholicism I I think that you can have so what

22:30

I would do is I would I still think that that's like you need to Assess the probability of the assumption of Mary in your overall calculation of the probability of Catholicism So I think that that would just go in a different place in the equation

22:43

It's not that it's irrelevant at all to the Catholicism being you don't you don't see the authority of the papacy as being central in the definition of Oh, yeah,

22:54

I think yeah, I think supremacy is one of the parts of the papacy and How would you define see you've lost me now because I've debated the papacy with numerous

23:06

Roman Catholic apologists and none of them took your position, so I'm just trying to figure out what it means because Sure, I can define the papacy for you the way

23:16

I've defined it So there's there's three different elements and one of the elements I'm I was talking with the

23:22

Catholic last night about and he's kind of like I don't know Anyways, but I'll give you the three elements that I'm currently working with.

23:27

So a succession infallibility and supremacy So those are the three different elements of the papacy

23:35

So if you have those three elements you have the papacy But I don't think you necessarily have Catholicism because that from those three elements

23:42

It doesn't entail that Linus was the second Pope or that you know on down the line that these people making these pronouncements or these claims

23:48

It doesn't entail that those are actually true I think it entails I think if the papacy is true Then we do have like some really good reason to think that Catholicism would be true

23:57

But that's where additional evidence Like you said the assumption of Mary if you think that that's really improbable that could be an argument against Catholicism later on But it's not necessarily an argument against the papacy now

24:10

One of the things that I'm okay. You realize that once you become a Roman Catholic You don't get to define these things

24:17

Rome does right? Define what things all of these things So in other words the dogmatic writings of the church

24:26

Define what the papacy is and that it is of necessity

24:32

Directly connected to Peter as the first Pope and the succession of authority through his successors and you don't get to go

24:44

You know, I'm not sure we can really do that I mean, it's certainly it's really good evidence that there wasn't a monarchical episcopate in Rome until 140 and you know

24:52

You got the pornocracy you got the Babylonian captivity of the church You've got

24:58

Pope's anathematizing other Popes. You got Honorius. Oh good grief for 400 years Every Pope that took the chair of Peter had to anathematize

25:07

Honorius as a heretic as the Bishop of Rome These are the things that made Cardinal Newman go.

25:13

Yeah. No, I don't think so and Hence develop the development hypothesis, which

25:18

I haven't asked you about yet, but I I need to I mean there's just so much here But Rome is the one that gets to define what

25:26

Roman Catholicism is I mean, I sound like a real conservative Roman Catholic here But the fact the fact is without it without without those claims there is no essence

25:38

To Roman Catholicism, that's why there are a lot of people that have been looking at Francis going. This is a disaster because he's he's

25:47

He's who am I to judge? Well, we thought you were the infallible vicar of Christ We're confused here

25:54

I mean I can I can debate a conservative Roman Catholic that actually accepts the claims of unum sanctum or the

26:02

Council of Trent or The papal syllabus of errors or things like that because those are those are objectively clear

26:08

Definable that the documents have a historic history behind them. So on and so forth. I can't debate liberal

26:16

Roman Catholics I Did a debate on the on the papacy back in 90 the three or four

26:23

I think was 94 at Boston College and I could just tell Looking Well that I did too.

26:31

I did I did two debates with Jerry Matitick's and then I did a two -on -two debate with Scott Butler and Robertson Jenner's and You can tell me would you be interested in doing a dialogue with Jimmy Akin on my channel?

26:46

Depends on on what the subject is. We we tried to Arrange debates on solo scriptura and things like that.

26:52

I think the last time we had any conversation I was like, let's talk we need to talk about Francis and everything sort of died at that point

26:59

Because no one wants to talk about Francis and I understand why I wouldn't want to talk about Francis, especially when

27:06

Jimmy Akin and I were on the Bible Answer Man together and that was during John Paul II and if you want to Talk about differences

27:14

There they are. We can talk about the difference between John Paul II and and Francis, but that's that's he and I the the point is

27:22

Things have changed in the in the in the current situation and you can find Roman Catholics who are at Boston College.

27:29

They don't believe anything you'll find Roman Catholics Boston College do not believe the bodily assumption of Mary is

27:37

De Fide dogma for anything in the world Okay But I'm simply saying when it was defined in the middle of the last century the people that defined it

27:48

Actually believed that it is De Fide it is by faith a part of the deposit of faith and it must be believed and they attached an anathema to it for a reason and so You know it

28:03

Basically, what I'm saying is I don't know what there is to convert to if you're not actually converting to Rome Catholicism That is a full -throated

28:11

Embracement of everything that Rome actually Teaches that may be a bad time to do it because like I said,

28:18

I don't think the Pope believes all that right now I really don't but you know, that's that's that's one of the issues

28:25

So I think if you accept the papacy, you're probably gonna be a Catholic. I think that's I think that's true a

28:33

Catholic as in Boston College Catholic or a Catholic as in Actually taking seriously the authority claims of the

28:42

Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church the latter Okay. Alright, I would agree that it follows and that's why

28:51

I said we don't get to define these things Rome already has and I'm actually using the

28:57

Vatican one definition and the Vatican one definition would include as a part of I What was that pastor?

29:07

He took no pastor eternals. Yeah pastor eternals specifically Identifies the giving of the privilege the keys to Peter as being

29:19

Separate from the other Apostles and being in the Vatican one.

29:25

That's in pastor eternals I could actually probably have it

29:31

In one of my documents here, I read it. Yeah, here it is. I mean, yeah Do you want it?

29:37

Okay. Yeah. Yeah We therefore teach to declare that according to the testimony of the gospel the primacy and jurisdiction of the

29:43

Universal Church of God was immediately And directly promised and given to blessed Peter the Apostle by Christ the

29:48

Lord for it was to Simon alone To me had already said you shall be called Cephas that the

29:54

Lord after the confession made by him saying thou art the Christ The son of living God address these solemn words blessed art thou signed by Jonah because flesh and blood not revealed it to thee

30:02

But my father who is in heaven I say to thee that thou art Peter and upon this rock I'll build my church and the gates of hell will not burn against It and I will give to thee

30:10

I just point out stopping do so is future. I will give not I am giving It doesn't point that out here

30:15

I will give to you the keys the kingdom of heaven whatever should bind on earth so on so forth and it was

30:21

Continuing the quote and it was upon Simon alone That Jesus after his resurrection bestowed the jurisdiction of chief pastor and ruler over all his fold in these words

30:29

Feed my lambs feed my sheep which by the way the early church never interpreted that way at open variance with this clear doctrine of Holy Scripture as It has been ever

30:40

Understood by the Catholic Church are the perverse opinions of those who while they distort the form of government established by Christ Lord in this church

30:50

Deny that Peter in his single person preferably to all the other apostles whether taken separately or together was endowed by Christ with a true and proper primacy of Jurisdiction or of those who assert that the same primacy was not bestowed immediately and directly upon blessed

31:07

Peter himself But upon the church and through the church on Peter as her minister and quote So that's your is your point that Matthew 18 also gives the keys to the rest of the

31:16

Apostles Is that where you would go next? Well where I would go next would be okay given that doso is future

31:22

Then when did Peter receive these keys and there's only two options Either it's

31:28

Matthew 18 and hence. It's with all the other Apostles in contradiction to Vatican 1 pastor

31:33

Eternus Or Matthew didn't even record it for us. It was so unimportant that doesn't even show up in the in the scriptural record

31:40

Those are the only only options you've got the problem is this document claims

31:45

That this understanding this this is a clear doctrine of Holy Scripture quote as It has been ever understood by the

31:55

Catholic Church. Those are untrue words they are not true words and yet these are the words that carry the anathema and They are what you would have to submit yourselves self to to be a self -consciously believing

32:10

Roman Catholic now What percentage are only Catholics in the world have ever read pastor

32:16

Eternus I don't know certainly less than 5 % I would assume

32:21

Okay, but you're talking about embracing something as Having ultimate epistemological authority and so you don't get to be

32:31

I was just raised with it. I don't know You're going in it with your eyes open. So that's a that's a different.

32:37

I think that's completely different situation And so this is just one of the many issues.

32:43

I mean the fact the matter is go ahead That's actually a great segue if you don't mind

32:49

I wanted to have one of my goals in our conversation today was I I mean In line with my channel's goals and I want to like have experts on and get their views and everything

32:59

It'd be great to like run through a list of your top objections to Catholicism Actually, well,

33:07

I Really want to most people want to hear from you and they want to hear us talking.

33:12

We'll do that I had a sort of semi viral blog post number of years ago in Response to somebody who was converting and it was my top 10 reasons to question

33:23

Roman Catholic Church I'll send that to you and and maybe if rich could look it up and maybe send me the link

33:30

I can provide it to you, but the The two things we've already been touching on the first thing in regards to papacy because that's what you were talking about on Cheney radio and and that's what people are hearing and that's what they want to know more about.

33:46

I Want to make sure that we really cover that and then I I do want to Ask before we wrap up.

33:53

I want to ask What your Understanding now is and what it what it was from your from your church or whether your church just didn't talk about it

34:05

And that is in regards to the soteriological issue of your of how you have peace with God Because I know that that a lot of charismatic churches aren't necessarily overly focused upon Systematic theology and especially upon a particularly robust soteriology

34:21

And so I want to I want to get to that but let me just ask a couple other other issues I ran through some things and I just want to know if you have plugged these into your calculations

34:32

Did you? consider The rather strong evidence that exists right now that there was no monarchical episcopate in Rome for the first Until about 140

34:43

AD and yeah, and I'm sorry yep, okay, and That how

34:52

How can you? How can you avoid I guess can you avoid a

34:59

Subjective Analysis of historical data in Creating your probabilities

35:08

Well, can you know I'm asking you because I I don't use I don't think anyone can okay

35:14

I don't think anyone can so you're assigning now the system you're examining Tells you as it has been ever understood by the

35:23

Catholic Church, so there is no There is no opportunity for anything other than a 100 % probability from Rome's perspective

35:31

So if you're assigning anything less than that You're actually in rebellion against Rome to do so just I thought

35:38

I'd point that in other words your yeah Your your calculations once you step over that line have to have to change you

35:46

You can't you don't have the right any longer to have that subjectivity. Do you do you do?

35:53

Do you say that you still think you could that you could go against this and be a faithful Catholic?

35:59

What do you mean by go again? So I I would just take a different interpretation of it is known in every age.

36:04

I would take an interpretation of like Like there's a way of talking like everybody knows this but does it it's not like everyone actually

36:14

Knows it it's just like a saying so that's kind of the way that I view this is that it's cut because it they weren't they

36:21

Were aware this was written Vatican Vatican one was written. What in the 50s, so they're very aware 1870

36:27

Oh, it's completely that 1990 1950s about an assumption Okay so They knew about the

36:38

Protestants and and so I it just No, no Wait, wait, wait a minute.

36:43

I don't think I don't think they're talking about Protestants It says as it has been ever understood by the

36:50

Catholic Church so Trust me. I'll at least give you the interpretation that has been given to me by all the

36:58

Roman Catholics I've debated on the papacy which includes Mitch Pacwa and and other people and By the way, if you've not heard my debates with Mitch Highly recommend them to you

37:10

Mitch is a great guy and The the thing that I loved about doing five debates with Mitch Pacwa is he never played games

37:19

He never pulled punches. He never engaged in cheap debating tricks They were just respectful straightforward

37:28

And there's a couple times. Well, you'll just break out laughing because we all did Which was neat but Anyways, I wish you could watch all of them.

37:41

But the first two though, they were videotaped We were never given the videotapes of them to make available. So that's a sad situation, but you can listen to them

37:48

Yeah, but I went back to this question of like a hundred percent certainty. So I I'm not a

37:54

Infallibilist with respect to knowledge. I don't think that knowledge has to be 100 % certain in order to constitute knowledge

38:02

Okay, but Rome what Rome is claiming What Rome is claiming that it was known in every age

38:09

Catholic Church is that has as it has been ever understood by the

38:15

Catholic Church And what I was saying is the the claim that was made to me well

38:21

I'll give an example every time when I was when when When Jerry Matics and I were debating the early church and the

38:28

Marian dogmas initially on Long Island I kept bringing up people who contradicted what

38:33

Rome is teaching and he would say well, that's not that's not tradition So when an early church father says something that Rome doesn't agree with well, that's not tradition

38:42

But when they do it is tradition and so the idea being well, you know, yeah every patristic source

38:49

We we find that agrees with us. That's great. And we know their patristic sources that disagree with us.

38:54

That's just not tradition So it's just it's just dismissed by an anachronistic filter that's placed upon history by later generations that no one at the time of the writing could have ever even dreamed of and So when they say as it has been ever understood by the

39:11

Catholic Church That that in essence requires you to remove

39:21

Cyprian from the Catholic Church that requires you to if you've read the dispute about Sermon 131 and Augustine and Zosimus and Pelagius and the

39:32

North African bishops and The fact that the that that when when the

39:37

Bishop of Rome told the North African bishops To change course the North African bishops told him to go take a flying leap and he did

39:47

They never they didn't understand it that way Cyprian didn't understand it that way Tertullian didn't understand it that way

39:54

Ignatius didn't understand it that way and so all of a sudden they're not in the Catholic Church anymore And yet their claim to be in the well

40:00

Tertullian, you know dies the heretic later on But their claim to be in the Catholic Church, so it is this massive redefinition and rereading

40:09

With a lens an anachronistic lens So you have to put this lens in front of your face and then you look back and go

40:16

Oh, we've always believed this when in point of fact, that's not what history shows It doesn't it shows it in all these different ways

40:26

The are you familiar with the six canon of the Council of Nicaea? Do you mind if we finish what we were originally discussing about the known and every because I thought you were saying

40:36

I thought you were saying that my Bayesian analysis like is flawed in some way because it was no student

40:42

No, well in every age I have I have to get to 100 % certainty in order for this to actually work

40:48

I can't see why that would be the case, but the point is that if your analysis gets you to 95 %

40:58

So as you go, okay, I accept that claim to now accept that claim means to accept the words of the papacy and Now that means you have to switch from 95 to 100 because it's saying

41:15

It's Perverse opinions of those who while they distort the form of government established by Christ and lawyers

41:21

Church Deny that Peter in his single person. What if you what if your analysis says well, you know

41:28

Actually, I'm I agree with John Henry Cardinal Newman. This was the result of the development of Doctrine over the ages and the early church didn't believe this

41:38

It's clearly seen in the fact that when Irenaeus told Victor the Bishop of Rome To cool his jets when

41:44

Victor threatened to excommunicate the Eastern bishops over the court of decimum controversy Very clearly

41:51

Irenaeus didn't believe that Victor was infallible or had the right to do this

41:56

He told him cool your jets You're one bishop amongst many and you can look at that and it sounds like what you're telling me is you can go

42:05

Well, yeah, I can I can I can still recognize that I don't have to change my views on that But I can still accept the papacy as a generally valid concept.

42:17

The papacy says nope. We are We are the final authority. There is no authority beyond Beyond the papacy and therefore all the calculations you come up with if it's at 95

42:31

You automatically have to just go. I'm now at a hundred because Because papacy says so that's it's the ultimate authority

42:38

I I just have to not worry about any I don't have to worry about the donation of Constantine I don't have to worry about the pseudo -Isidorean decretals.

42:45

I don't have to worry about the Babylonian captivity the church I can all that stuff's gone It just doesn't matter anymore.

42:54

I Guess I just I'm not following their argument and that that could be completely on me.

42:59

I'm just not following how we go from Papal authority to you've got to be 100 % on this because the

43:06

Pope the papal authority is saying This is the this is the infallible

43:12

Vicar of Christ on earth. He is infallible in all of his teachings and So when does it actually say that in Vatican one?

43:21

That's something I'm curious about the infallibility part We therefore for the preservation safekeeping increase the

43:28

Catholic flock with approval the sacred council the judge to be necessary to propose to the Faithful in accordance the ancient constant faith the universal

43:35

Church the doctrine touching the institution perpetuity in nature of the sacred apostolic primacy which is then

43:43

Continued on in its definition in what I read rather lengthily about five or ten minutes ago if anyone therefore shall say that the

43:52

Blessed Peter the Apostle was not appointed the Prince of the Apostles and the Visible head of the whole church militant or at the same directly and immediately received from the same our

44:00

Lord Jesus Christ a primacy of honor Only and not of true and proper jurisdiction. Let him be

44:07

Anathema and that continues the second Vatican Council continue that in order the Episcopate itself might be one and undivided he placed blessed

44:14

Peter over the other Apostles ensued in him a permanent visible source and foundation of unity of faith and fellowship and all this teaching about the institution perpetuity force and Reason of the sacred primacy of the

44:25

Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching authority The sacred synod again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful and quote

44:36

Vatican to Okay, so it's there and all I'm all I'm saying is the

44:42

Roman claim is 100 % your your Bayesian analysis can only get you 95 % but the point is what's demanded of you to be firmly believed by all the faithful if you want to be faithful and to accept the infallible teaching authority, which then says we've always believed this and All the rest that stuff that I've mentioned in passing the

45:09

Babylonian captivity the church where you have two popes Anathematizing each other for quite some time and they could never heal it themselves, by the way

45:18

Are you familiar with the Babylonian captivity? in the Old Testament No, this is a

45:24

Babylonian captivity the church which took place When in the 14th century the papacy moved from Rome to Avignon France Okay, the papacy moved to Avignon France and then after a period of time there was a reform movement and a counter to that was reestablished back in Rome and for decades you had two popes and Europe divided up as to which of the two popes they would follow the

45:59

Council of Pisa in the early 15th century attempted to heal the schism and only succeeded in electing a third

46:07

Pope and So finally it was the Council of Constance around 1415 that met deposed all three popes and Healed The papacy that's the same con that's the same council that burned

46:23

Jan hus for believing in justification by faith alone by the way and solo scripture But the point is the papacy was not able to heal itself

46:32

It took a council to do so and so for a brief period of time

46:38

There was the thought maybe conciliarism is the way to go. Maybe it's ruled by councils that didn't last very long

46:44

The papacy reasserted its absolute and ultimate authority and has continued to do so ever since then

46:52

How did they do that with the Council of Constance? Yes. Uh -huh 1415 1414 to 1415 and did the

46:59

Council of Constance that they like they They made a the new Pope the depot.

47:05

Yes. She said there was three. Okay, right, right, right? Okay. Yeah, so I would highly recommend taking a look at this because yeah

47:12

If the papacy is if the papacy is true, it's been true at all times not just simply today

47:17

It has to have been true in the past as well And so you have the Babylonian captivity of the church and earlier than that the reason

47:25

I wasn't really changing topic But when I asked you if you're familiar with Canon 6 of the

47:31

Council of Nicaea This is directly relevant let me read you at Canon 6 says now just for people watching and listening

47:40

Most people familiar with the Council of Nicaea only know The creedal statement in regards to the

47:46

Sun being homoousius not heteroousius not homoousius, but hetero homoousius with the father, but all of these councils whether it was

47:55

Chalcedon or Nicaea or even the anti -Nicene councils like Sirmium Which most people don't know anything about most people do not realize that the one man who stood for the

48:07

Council of Nicaea During the Arian Ascendancy after the Council of Nicaea was Athanasius of Alexandria the

48:14

Bishop of Rome Liberius gave in He signed the Arianized Sirmium Creed. He gave in on the deity of Christ the

48:20

Bishop of Rome did but Athanasius didn't and he prevailed but it took decades and he didn't prevail by claiming to be anything other than a

48:31

Person faithful to the scriptures and he argued that way Anyway the Council of Nicaea also passed canons as well as its creed and Canon number six says let the ancient customs in Egypt Libya and Pentapolis prevail that the

48:45

Bishop of Alexandria Have jurisdiction in all these since the like is customary for the

48:51

Bishop of Rome also Likewise in Antioch and on the other provinces let the churches retain their privileges and this is to be universally understood

48:59

That if anyone be made a bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan the Great Synod is declared that such a man ought not to Be a bishop, etc.

49:05

Etc. The point is canon six specifically identifies the

49:12

Bishop of Alexandria as having jurisdiction in Egypt Libya and Pentapolis Not the

49:18

Bishop of Rome. He has he has jurisdiction in the area of Italy But not in Egypt and the same thing is true of Antioch and the other provinces let the churches retain their privileges

49:30

There is no concept the Council of Nicaea of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. In fact, think about it

49:37

Why would you have the Council of Nicaea if anyone in those days believe the bit that what what you're being asked to believe today?

49:44

That the Bishop of Rome is the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth with teaching authority. They didn't go to the

49:49

Bishop of Rome nobody thought you would he only sent two representatives the vast majority the bishops of Nicaea of the 318 bishops came from the east and Those two those two from Rome did not have any central role in the decision of the council so why

50:07

Think about that if if at the beginning of the fourth century The beliefs you are demanded to believe now by their own

50:15

Catholic Church were true. There is no reason. I'm sorry Weren't believed then what believe in your sentence?

50:23

Sorry Okay. No, you see what I'm saying? In fact, yeah. In fact, this is an argument.

50:29

I've made many many times. I Have asked Roman Catholic friends people

50:34

I was debating Show me a single bishop at the Council of Nicaea that believed

50:43

Dogmatically what you are to believe today dogmatically And there's no way to answer that question because there's nobody that did

50:53

There is nobody at the council and I see it believe the bodily assumption Mary was a dogma revealed by by God not a one and there was no one

51:00

This is this is what I wanted from the show with you today is to learn from you That's ultimately well, and this is great.

51:07

This is exactly Well, we could do more of this. Well, what do you want to ask me questions and you have some other goals?

51:13

Well, well, let me just let me just say They may be older But when we did debates back in the 90s with people like Mitch Pacwa, Patrick Madrid Robertson Jenis Gary Machuda on the

51:32

Apocrypha and I know he's on YouTube. Yes. They are. Yes, they are and the difference

51:38

Honestly the difference back then with today a Lot of the debates we have today you got a guy sitting there with a fan going behind him on YouTube These you had to travel you had to fly and you had months to prepare

51:55

And it's a completely different world now. It really really is I think there is a fundamental difference between the debates that you did back then and the debates you do today

52:04

I mean you can do that super unfair. No, I why what why would that be?

52:11

Because so the the discussions that I've done I'm I guess you're referring to me like I don't know no, no, no

52:17

No, I wasn't I was not referring to you I'm simply talking about the fact that during kovat, especially we're all locked down and all of a sudden

52:27

Everybody is on YouTube and there's they forget to turn the ceiling fan off above them which drives which makes everybody

52:34

And they're just they just decided I Know I wasn't saying what

52:45

I was saying is a lot of the debates that are going on now We're scheduled the week before they happen

52:52

Okay, and that's not good because if you're going to really honor the audience and the topic

52:58

For example, I've debated Bart Ehrman. Do you know who Bart Ehrman is? Yeah, okay You know, how many channel do you know?

53:05

Do you know how many months I prepared to debate Bart Ehrman? I mean aside from having taught

53:11

Greek for decades and stuff like that. How many months specifically I spent preparing to debate

53:16

Barnum So I think it's different for everybody It could be that you had already studied the topic enough to where you didn't need it

53:23

But like no refresher on it six months, but my guess six months about that Yeah, I was gonna get some somewhere around there six months for a formal debate where you're on stage

53:32

That seems that seems very reasonable. Exactly. I listened to his classes. I read his books

53:40

That's I think the best way to do these types of things. How much time do you think he spent on your on?

53:46

None, absolutely positively none. In fact, in fact, you know, you know how I can prove it So you're really just talking about yourself now.

53:53

Yeah, like I do it this way I show this one I believe I showed respect to him and my audience by preparing he did not show respect to me and my audience

54:02

By not preparing and I can prove he didn't prepare You know how because he used the exact same slides he had used in his debate with Dan Wallace Including the same typographical errors that he had to apologize for the second time around So he hadn't even looked at them.

54:19

He doesn't most of people most of people when I debated John Shelby Spong on homosexuality

54:25

He did not bring a Bible to the debate and the topic of the debate was is homosexuality consistent with the

54:31

Bible He didn't bring a Bible. So this is when I debate people like that.

54:36

They don't they don't invest a second They really really don't so I was not in any way saying anything about you

54:42

I was simply saying okay we have done debates on the papacy that are very in -depth and just because they were done the 90s doesn't mean that the

54:48

Information is still not really relevant and really really useful. So I'd I'd highly recommend them to you.

54:53

So all right, there's so many of these things canon six and and All this all the rest of this stuff

55:00

I would just so highly recommend to you taking the time to Minimally read

55:07

George Salmon's book the infallibility of the church. I don't get the feeling that you've

55:12

How much how much interaction real quick? Have you had with John Henry Cardinal Newman so far?

55:18

then See that concerns me as well because the modern

55:24

Roman Catholic apologetic It's entire paradigm has been determined by Newman Newman was new just really really briefly

55:34

Newman. I know I know who it was. Okay story. Yeah. Okay good Oh, I just haven't read it.

55:40

I just haven't read his stuff I've been yeah, it would be but almost everybody you have been reading has been deeply influenced by him

55:46

Let's just put it that way So I think that's I think that just I think you can see why it'd be very very important to look at what happened with Vatican one his opposition of able infallibility and all the rest of stuff that goes with it now

55:58

With all that said and looking at the clock. I'm sorry. What? Oh Yeah Yeah, rich rich did get me the the top ten the top ten reasons not to join the

56:11

Roman Catholic Church I'll just the blog post. Yeah. Yeah, and I will

56:17

Yeah, it's from Tweet it to me or message me on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, I it's from August Wow August 20th of 2007 here

56:27

I thought it was a few years ago Once you get my age everything feels like it was just a few years ago Actually, it's just sort of how that works.

56:32

So I just sent it to you DM in in Twitter nice now. Yes. Okay, let's

56:39

Because we want to try to keep the this To a length to where people are gonna be willing to want to listen to all of it and and I'm also getting pretty hungry

56:47

I didn't eat lunch. Yeah, and you said you had to pick up kids too. So, um, yeah, so real quick I don't know whether you heard it

56:57

But when I responded to you one of the things that I said, I'm not sure is man

57:05

Well, yes That's that is a that is vitally a key issue

57:11

Since you heard it then you you know what I'm talking about here in regards the imputed righteousness of Christ I realized in a lot of charismatic churches.

57:19

That's not Necessarily a part of the regular preaching I can assure you that I wish

57:24

I could do I wish I could take you with me To the church that I used to attend that would be amazing.

57:31

What church? Well, are you attending a church right now? Okay, I am. Yeah, it's a non -denominational church, but it's a lot better.

57:39

It's a lot better When you say would say better you mean? A Clearer ministry of the word.

57:49

Oh Yes. Yes. He he reminds me of Tim Keller my my pastor. Okay. Okay.

57:55

All right How is that? How is that on your scale of like? Where does he fit in Tim Keller?

58:02

Yeah, that's That would lead us way off into other stuff that is different There's Still some issues to talk about there, but since you sent you since you raised it the blessed man

58:21

I Played did you did you see my conversation with Peter Stravinsky's on that? No, okay.

58:27

I I played a note to a lot of stuff. That's fine. I watched

58:34

If I will I will haunt you in your dreams If you do not start watching the debates that I've done with Roman Catholics for 20 30 years

58:43

You will never sleep again, but I don't want you to debate with with Ehrman I did watch that one and I thought that was really good.

58:50

Okay. Well, but that's very different. That's that's oh, yeah That's history. That's text criticism stuff like that You've got to watch the debate that I did with father

58:59

Peter Stravinsky's you it's on purgatory. You would think and That was one of the most revealing debates

59:07

That I've ever done 2001 Listen to the cross -examination and then come back to me and say

59:15

Yeah, okay. Did let me know but I asked him and I played this in my review of your of your

59:22

You must have missed this part. I played my Question questioning of him.

59:29

Are you the blessed man of Romans 4 8? His first response was the blessed man is

59:34

Jesus Hmm and I'm like, so Jesus is the man to whom the

59:40

Lord will not impute sin his sin And he realized no, that doesn't really work too.

59:46

Well, and so I gave him a second shot at it And his the only thing you come up with is

59:52

I hope to be the blessed man Okay, and so my question for you to think about not necessarily answer but to think about Okay is is just this

01:00:08

I Do not believe that within the Roman Catholic system as defined by the dogmatic teachings of the church not by someone teaching at Boston College today or something like that, but as defined by Trent and Vatican 2 and Vatican 1 and Even by the

01:00:27

Universal Catholic Catechism for that matter That Roman Catholicism can answer the question who is the blessed man of Romans 4 8 because in Roman Catholicism if You commit a venial sin.

01:00:42

It is imputed to you and You bear the temporal punishment for the venial sin if you commit a mortal sin

01:00:49

It's imputed to you and you have to be rejustified the sacrament of penance so there is no non imputation of sin within Roman Catholicism, but it just doesn't exist because There is no positive

01:01:01

Imputation of the righteousness of Christ is called a legal fiction by Roman Catholic apologists and by Roman Catholic theology

01:01:07

And so there is no answer to Romans 4 8, but my question to you is how the make it a statement the only

01:01:20

I'm still Protestant the only reason not to be a Catholic in the

01:01:26

West today is If you recognize that you are in fact the blessed man and that your sins have been imputed to Christ and his righteousness has been imputed to you and therefore to leave that glorious hope for the penitential system and sacramental system of Roman Catholicism is

01:01:49

The one thing that I will never ever ever be able to understand on the part of someone who makes that move

01:01:55

What if they just said that justification is Just about that about righteousness being righteous in the sight of God, but then sanctification is

01:02:07

Just a separate story. Well, the problem is in Rome in classic Roman Catholic theology. The two are

01:02:13

Confounded with one another Are you got well, are you familiar with well, okay read

01:02:19

Trent read the people at the time Recognize that they're that that the Lutheran Concord and all the rest that kind of stuff is not dogmatic by the way

01:02:27

But is talking about things but keep this in mind Really quick. Are you familiar with Luther's dunghill?

01:02:33

And now analogy? No. Oh Come on, man. What were you doing on every

01:02:38

Reformation Sunday? I mean you didn't you never dressed up like Martin Luther or anything like that.

01:02:44

I mean, what have you been? Okay, all right, and I would look cooler than you well good luck with that Anybody anybody's gonna look cooler than me.

01:02:59

I'm I'm I'm an old fat Scotsman, but okay. I don't have time to redo it We'll have to revisit this

01:03:06

Okay, and and we will but I I do Very much want to encourage you to recognize that history the teaching of Scripture These cannot be analyzed in a statistical fashion

01:03:25

Okay, I I encourage you to continue your studies, but I also encourage you to recognize that the things that you're studying absolutely

01:03:38

Defy being put into any type of a calculation there there's there's there's way too much of the human aspect to be put into the history and The other thing is there's way too much.

01:03:52

We haven't even talked about this, but we need to talk about the issue of Scripture and scriptural authority and what is the honest awesome?

01:04:01

What is not and So like I said Take the time to listen to the debate

01:04:08

I do with Mitch Pacquiao watch that one because it's available on YouTube and See if you can't hear why that's a big area that we need to be addressing as well

01:04:19

Fair enough sound fair. I'll take you. Yeah, I'll take you where I mean, I'm taking it very very seriously I mean,

01:04:24

I've been taking notes today. So Now was that as bad as you expected it to be as bad.

01:04:31

I didn't well Come on You can be I don't know cuz I so my goal again when

01:04:37

I came into this conversation was to learn from you So I figured if like if you understood that then it wasn't gonna be like a big issue

01:04:45

Yeah, there wasn't gonna be any fireworks or anything like so and that was my that was literally my only goal going into this is

01:04:52

I wanted to learn from you and I really do appreciate you taking the time to to have me on the show

01:04:57

I was at the Tim Stratton debate. I don't know if you saw me I was there I Was in person.

01:05:04

Yeah, and there was the line to talk to you. Believe me I know it wrapped around the whole building and like into the cup.

01:05:12

Yeah, it was it was ridiculous Yeah, I even walked in there one day I walked in there just like trying to see if I could catch your glance and it just didn't happen

01:05:20

Sorry, but I just know I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today I I wish

01:05:25

I wish you had just waved or something and I would have I would have definitely greeted you but I Do try to stay around afterwards and greet people for as long as I possibly can which sometimes can be

01:05:38

Absolutely possibly exhausting but it's it's always enjoyable to do so I appreciate that.

01:05:43

So anyway, all right Well, thank you very much for joining us. I I get the feeling we'll probably get a chance to do something like this again in The future.

01:05:51

I think it was useful. Hopefully for you If you if there's anything you've jotted down that that is unclear to you something like that.

01:06:01

I want to be able to Direct you to the resources And so that you can make sure to get the best material you can and make wise decisions so Awesome.

01:06:11

Thank you. I appreciate you being with us today. Thank you. All right. All right. God bless. Thank you. See ya

01:06:17

All right. Well, that was Fast moving. I cannot I cannot imagine that anyone was at all bored

01:06:30

Conversation let me just look over here at At Twitter, I don't I don't see

01:06:39

I I see nothing Not a single comment, of course, I didn't invite people to comment in Twitter But I did

01:06:46

I saw absolutely no discussion what they're going there whatsoever But I'm not searching on capturing

01:06:52

Christianity either. So maybe something pull up there, but no one's mentioning it to me but hopefully

01:07:00

Just one thing The only stuff I had the only thing

01:07:05

I had in front of me today was I Because I had read it when I did the review is

01:07:11

I had an open document that contained the quotations from Pastor a turners

01:07:16

Vatican one and the quote from Vatican two Over here. Like I said,

01:07:21

I never opened this and I I was gonna ask if he had seen John R pages What will dr.

01:07:27

Newman do but he said he hadn't gotten to Newman yet So that would sort of be somewhat secondary at that point but all of that was

01:07:38

From debates from 20 years ago, which are still vitally important today and from the fact that I'll be teaching early church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary the last weekend in September Actually goes to October 1st.

01:07:56

I think Saturday is October 1st and I've just taught this stuff for ages

01:08:03

There's just so much That needs to be looked at To have a full -orbed picture of the claims that Rome makes and and issues related to it so hopefully that would that was useful to folks and also helps you to understand the importance of Solo scriptura and before we wrap up you haven't started music or anything.

01:08:28

Have you good? Let me Let me show you something.

01:08:38

You know what I'm gonna do. Don't you that's as big as I can get

01:08:45

This picture was sent to me about two hours ago and You have here

01:08:56

Reading Job with st. Thomas Aquinas and We have the the summa of the summa and And We we've got a book by we've got levering in here

01:09:15

Notice what it says it says sword and trowel staff recommendations If you look in the background, you can see some t -shirts hanging there

01:09:28

Five of the ten books on this display are written by Roman Catholics Where is this display?

01:09:39

Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary bookstore now

01:09:47

Last Last December, I think

01:09:53

I pointed out that I was seeing a Lot of recommendations by Reformed Baptists of books by Roman Catholics and One of the rather childish responses to that was that whenever anybody reads something by a

01:10:11

Roman Catholic, oh, that's papism. I have obviously tons and tons of books in my library by Roman Catholics and not just Books that are

01:10:28

On Roman Catholic theology. I've got a very healthy Roman Catholic theology section, obviously

01:10:34

But on other subjects as well Roman Catholics can be wonderful historians

01:10:42

They can be wonderful philosophers but the fact the matter is a

01:10:48

Roman Catholic if he or she is truly a Roman Catholic and this came up in the conversation is a person with an ultimate authority an

01:10:57

Ultimate epistemological authority. In fact, that's that's one of the things that they say to promote their system Remember Patrick Madrid years and years ago.

01:11:06

What's the what is the blueprint for anarchy? Sola Scriptura Because the teaching magisterium of the church gives you this

01:11:16

Uniformity, it's uniformity you see in this consistency great advantage to it, isn't there and the problem is that the

01:11:28

The people in these books that we're looking that I was showing you there The the people in these books are writing books specifically on the great tradition and Classical theism

01:11:49

I'm Reading a book right now by dr. Craig Carter, and he says that you should read right along with his book a book by Borsma called scripture as real presence

01:12:15

These individuals are Promoting an understanding of scripture that is not compatible in any way shape or form

01:12:28

With any kind of Protestant let alone reformed

01:12:33

Baptist or reformed at all understanding of scripture It's not possible and yet here at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary five of the ten books on Display, I think this was today

01:12:53

At the bookstore, yeah, we'll see how long that display stays up, huh? But five of the ten by Roman Catholics on subjects

01:13:07

Where I simply have to ask don't we have anything good on that it is not.

01:13:16

Oh, we can't read Roman Catholics It's you need to recognize the fundamental compromise that they have made in regards to nature of scripture

01:13:25

That they have to make you don't understand Roman Catholicism You don't understand it

01:13:36

Sorry Some of you reformed Baptist you don't get it and you're not gonna get it until it's your students

01:13:43

They're to swim in the Tiber and that's and then it's too late and I've tried to warn you and you will not listen

01:13:51

You will not listen you just listened to an hour's worth of why

01:14:00

These things are important and they are and they are all righty.

01:14:10

Well There is so much to be talking about and we we will get to it, but I want to thank

01:14:24

Everybody who made that possible but especially Cameron He said he was a little nervous

01:14:31

I understand why I I just wish you all would would would recognize.

01:14:40

I am just and Rich will tell you I am I am just the most lovable Warm fuzzy bear in the world

01:14:55

Sorry, he couldn't he couldn't keep a straight face. He said with the straight Just That just ask just ask summer

01:15:05

I I still think I Like to tell the story when she was being interviewed a couple years ago

01:15:10

Someone asked her in one word describe what it was like to be raised by Jane by James White and her answer was hilarious hilarious

01:15:20

Because we had a lot of fun and and I can have a lot of fun.

01:15:25

I'm I'm not that But you get me into a debate and I've got a job to do and I do the job.

01:15:33

That's that's people think that's what I'm always like Thankfully, I'm not like Jerry Maddox. Jerry Maddox is like that He never stops debating if we met right now

01:15:41

He'd pick up right where we last left off with whatever debate it was we did He'd have a diet coke in his hand.

01:15:47

But other than that, he just he Yep, yep, I I know I know

01:15:54

But I'm not like that I'm gonna I'm actually gonna drive a little out of town and and do a bike ride,

01:16:03

I haven't done a long time up a seven thousand foot mountain and But I'm gonna be studying all the way driving out all the way driving back while I'm riding.

01:16:11

I'm gonna be listening to books because We do the dividing line and that's why you listen.