Have You Not Read - S1:E21

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the saints.

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Welcome back to Have You Not Read. I'm Dylan Hamilton, and with me are Michael Durham. Jonathan Durham.

We're here answering another question about music. The question reads, should believers write and sing songs about the reformers, the

Puritans, and other well -known men who have been used by God throughout history? Not in a church service, certainly not.

But what about in songs sung outside of church services? Does this take away glory rightfully from God and cause our thoughts to dwell too much upon his servants?

Michael, you wanna start us off? Well, I would say, first of all, I appreciate the spirit behind the question, trying to ascertain what is the proper approach to making art.

Should we compose songs that only focus upon the

Lord, that only focus upon God, and give him praise and glory? If you think about it just a little bit, you could take this same question and apply it to poetry.

That's not a huge leap to move from writing songs to just writing poetry. Should you write poems that are about, perhaps, historical figures of some importance, or even historical events?

What if you wrote a poem about the Reformation, or what if you wrote a poem about the pilgrims who were fleeing religious persecution?

I mean, that's a significant moment in our spiritual ancestry. So you could apply this to various forms of art.

And so I wanted to keep that wider scope in mind, even though this is about music. Would it take away our attention from God?

Would it distract us? Would it be somewhat, not necessarily harmful, but maybe not profitable for us to engage in this kind of songwriting?

Well, I would say on one level, I'm a little tickled by the question because I would really hate to try to find a word that rhymes with Zwingli.

So I don't envy anyone who tries to write a song like this, though someone would probably have the talent to pull it off.

Tingly. Oh, that is a terrible, terrible rhyme. When I think of Zwingli, I get all tingly.

Hey, you know somebody's gonna write it. Yeah, someone is. But I think that the idea behind the question, if we can kind of get down to the root of it, is should we engage in the creation of art that is somehow not overtly focusing upon the

Lord? Is that okay? Is there some kind of problem with that? Yeah, that's how

I understand the question. What are your thoughts? Well, I'm deeply grateful for the leaders of the

Reformation and the things that have come about as a result of their work, their devotion to Scripture, their stances, and we have long -lasting effects that we get to be the beneficiaries of.

But if I tried to ask the same question about a modern reformer, let's say

R .C. Sproul, I think he would shudder to think that God's people would take any sort of part in that.

He would say, no, no, no, no, focus on God, write things about Him, not me. I almost wish we could ask the reformers, what do you all think about this?

And as much as they were trying to put the brakes on some of that kind of sainthood worship and praying to the saints, they probably would have swung the other direction,

I think, in this instance. It would look too hagiographical for them, like it would look like a veneration.

Yeah, so I think we might even have perhaps two questions here. One of them is, should we write music or should we develop art that is not overtly about God or the gospel?

That's one question. And the other question, I think, is what we were already answering, and I think we're on solid ground, to not write songs that give glory and praise to men.

And I think that that's the way Jesus would have it when He told His disciples about what greatness really is.

It's about being lowly and being a servant, and we're not to be ascribing titles of honor or so on and so forth to one another.

Don't let anyone call you rabbi or leader or father. You're just a brother.

So I think as far as the question about should we write songs in the sense that glorify men, we shouldn't, but could you write a song that glorifies

God and mentions His use of lowly men as His means?

Sure, yeah. And I think what you had asked as well is is it all right to write anything that's not overtly

Christian, just a beautiful line of poetry describing creation. At some level, there's beauty in the creativity that God has given, and we can appreciate that, and not just amongst ourselves, we can see

God's gift of other people in this way. And yes, I think there's a place for that.

It's just whenever you start getting directly appreciative of others in the

Christian community, we just gotta like, well, hang on a sec, be careful. Be careful there. Yeah, I'm for the being careful.

I kinda wanna push back on the hagiographical stuff because I think we have sort of an example of it in Scripture with Esther where God is not necessarily expressly put forward as a character in the story, though He's always there.

His sovereignty is being shown throughout all the things that are happening, and we see how

He works through Esther and how He works through Mordecai the whole time, and the king as well. So like maybe something like, and I actually view

Beowulf, the story, as hagiography. It's a complicated, long answer, but I view that as well, and I think those things are permissible without giving some sort of undue glory to man because they did do those actions in time, and God gets the credit for all of them, but they were the instruments used.

So can we say, because I don't think hagiography is just veneration or just the way that the

Roman Catholics do it, where you lift them up and pray to them, right? So you can have these stories written about them.

You can have poetry. You can have songs written about them without really venerating. Would you agree with that statement, or would you push back the other way?

I think it more lends to typology, which when we read the amazing accounts in scripture of the things that happened with, the classic example,

King David, or one of David's mighty men did this mighty act, and you see, obviously, that God, through His Holy Spirit, has empowered these men to do these actions, and obviously they did it in His name and so on, but the point is, we're not supposed to walk away from those scripture passages and say, all glory to David, or even to say, wow, what a worthy man

David is. I think I'm gonna reflect on him and give him praise, but that when we walk away, we just saw a glimpse of what a real man is, and it was only a glimpse, because the full revelation is in Christ, because He's the one who stands in our stead and defeats the enemy that we cannot defeat and delivers the people of God from their enemy and leads them into the new era.

Oh, okay, so we see these flashes in the pan, if you would, but they point to something other and higher.

So, and again, I think that the Bible is filled with the best stories, but they're all connected to the story.

Amen. So would you say that if we're going to write songs or if we're going to write poetry or stories about saints of old, they would be side characters still, right?

Like, so the focus definitely, even if we don't have to name the main character, the prime mover, we don't have to name

God, we can still write stories, poetry, songs about them in that sense.

You think about how Paul approaches it in the letter to the Corinthians. There's this man focus going on,

Paul, Apollos, Peter, and Paul is very quick to deflect attention away from men and to remind everybody of our calling.

Not many mighty, not many noble, and he is quick to show that God is glorified in our weakness.

His strength is made manifest in our weakness. And this is where I think that it's an important discipline when we go back and we read and we quote from people like Calvin and Edwards and so on, that we remember they had feet of clay, as the expression goes, they were full of weakness and problems, and we should not be glorying in them, but glorying in the

God whom they proclaimed. And when they're writing those things that we are quoting, they're reflecting upon him.

I mean, it's always going to eventually lead back to he who should have most glory of all, especially when you're talking about reformers and Puritans.

And even if we quote something that they were wrong on, it's exposing that as well, that they were wrong in this certain area, and it actually points us again, yet again, to truth that we can mine out.

So going a little bit deeper on this question, given that we're not going to glorify and venerate the

Protestant sainthood, if you would, obviously it is okay, and probably should be more and more encouraged that we create art for the glory of God, but does that mean we always include an altar call?

Does it mean that we always include the character and attributes of God? We've already said that's not always necessary, okay?

But should we not create art that is always cognizant of the gospel of Jesus Christ, always fully immersed in and aware of the character and the nature of God, so that we do art in the fear of the

Lord, thinking of him first, thinking of him most, and isn't then what the art that we produce by the grace of God, that that would be the most true and good and beautiful art that the world sees and encounters and engages in?

And what kind of processes that look alike or do we have any examples in history? Do we have any current examples of people engaging in that?

There probably are a number of them. I'm drawn to just not only those who are in artistic fields, but whatever you are in.

Sometimes it's not, how can you glorify God while you are replacing a toilet?

And that doesn't feel very artistic at the moment, and you're not - By holding your tongue. Yeah. Yeah. But there's a gifting that God has given mechanically or whatever it is to this individual, and he's using those gifts that we may not perceive, we may not, you know, venerate is the wrong word, but I mean, we're appreciative when he gets that done right, but he does it for the glory of God.

The same thing with art and anything else, whether you write music, poetry, a book, whatever it may be, how are you actively using, actively working, actively creating as the

Lord has given you the capacity to do that? And our limited capacity is what's pointing to his greater capacity.

You know, he's the creator who gave us all this. It's the part of the general revelation that God has given this whole world.

It's not only the creation, but it's also us. We are made in the image of God, and the fact that we can do these things and do them well and can be appreciated and back and forth, it's, again, pointing to his genius.

Yeah, you were asking for examples. Yeah. I think it's somewhat difficult to find them in modern times from Christians, but there are examples out there.

I would say in the field that I most follow and enjoy in fiction, I would say N .D.

Wilson does a good job in that strain. The guy, I'm losing his name right now, but he wrote,

When Peace Like a River. I thought that was an awesome novel and well -crafted, but a lot of times we see it right now outside of the church culture, where the time that it takes, the skill, the craftsmanship that it takes is actually being practiced better by pagans than it is us, and I don't know if that is a poor view of work within the church, poor theology of work or craftsmanship, or we have not been as appreciative of high craftsmanship.

The writer that I can think of of high craftsmanship most recently is a writer named Kazuo Ishiguro from the

UK. He takes 10 years, a lot of times, to finish his novel. He takes a whole decade to write a novel, and they're not long, but they are beautifully crafted and they are well thought out.

Now, how many Christians do we see take that amount of time and set it aside?

I know we don't have the time or the money to actually do that, but that type of craftsmanship is just not here anymore.

That type of time is something we're not able to engage in, and I don't know why or what causes that are causing that, but that's the type of high craftsmanship and art that I think

Christians ought to be able to do best, but we're being outdone in certain areas,

I think. Yeah, I think that in some sense it should provoke us to jealousy, and we've got a lot more potential,

I think, in being informed by God's word that if we fear the Lord, it's the beginning of knowledge, the beginning of wisdom, the beginning of understanding, and there's so much potential there for believers to engage in various artistic expressions to the glory of God.

I think there's a lot of discipleship that needs to occur along those lines. I think that because of certain views of history and even our eschatologies at times is that we don't know how we're supposed to engage in long -term, time -consuming, beautiful work, and is it okay to do that?

Is that permissible to do that? But we need to keep in mind the worthiness of God, keep in mind that what we do doesn't matter to Him.

Our labor is not in vain because Jesus is risen from the dead, so we need to keep that in mind, and what we do in terms of expressing beauty and creating art should be with God's honor in mind.

Whatever you do, do everything to the glory of God. Do it with all your might. Do it with everything you've got.

And the Proverbs says, do you see a man who is skilled in his work? He will not stand before mean men. He will stand before kings.

And how often do we find stories in the scripture of those who were skilled in their labors, skilled in their work, but they were

God -fearers, and they ended up at the right hand of the power, whoever that was, you know, Joseph at the right hand of Pharaoh, Mordecai at the right hand of Ahasuerus, Daniel at the right hand of Babylonian and Persian kings, and so forth.

I think of people who are Christians who are very skilled in their labor, and they end up being very appraised, and people may or may not even know that they are

Christians just by their name recognition. Right. But when you get to know them, that's when you, oh, oh wow, so you're a

Christian, you actually believe in that stuff. Right. And it can be a surprise to people. I'm thinking like, you know, I see a book over here by David Bonson, who has applied his labors in economics, and he has name recognition all over the place for his economic work.

But then when you get to know him, he's just unapologetically Christian. That's a good example.

Right. Kind of focusing back in on the singing songs about Puritans and Reformers, I'm thinking of kids, and would it be helpful teaching your children their spiritual ancestry through song?

I know sometimes that's the easiest way to teach them scripture to begin with. Father Abraham? Right, exactly.

And that's kind of what I was thinking of, to a certain degree. But that's where my mind kind of went with this question at first.

I'm like, yeah, of course, I'll write a little parody about Luther or somebody else, and they're gonna learn something about him.

It's like learning all the states, or the days of the week, or just kind of like a teaching mechanism.

Right. Yeah, it's the same thing that fans of sports teams do. They'll take a pub tune, or they've even taken hymns, and they've brought them over to talk about their teams that they're trying to sing on to victory.

It's sort of the same principle that we're trying to use, except ours is a little more valuable, I would say.

That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about coming up with a song to teach church history to my kids.

Well, definitely could be useful. We're always teaching our kids one way or the other. They're probably learning songs we wish they would not learn.

And please stop singing that around the house. So maybe we should teach them something we wanna hear. Right, are you talking about Disney, or?

Yeah. Or worse. Let it go. Yeah, or worse,

I agree. I think if we haven't sufficiently answered this, we'll look back and we'll try and hit some places where we think we can wrap it up a little bit more.

But for right now, we're gonna consider it wrapped up, and we'll move on to what are we thankful for, Michael? I'm thankful that our church has begun to sing out of a psalter on a regular basis.

It is not always easy to learn a new tune and to follow through and sing, but it has become an enriching discipline for us when we have a call to worship and we read a portion of the

Psalms, and then we sing it. I find it to be helpful in reflecting upon the words as the text of Scripture is taken and put into meter and rhyme.

Whoever labored to do that, they're doing an expositional labor there.

They wanna make sure that they get the meaning of the text right, and they're doing their very best to put it into that structure.

And then when you sing it together as the church, I just find it to be, it's a very reverent thing.

It's not something that is not mindless at all. I'm having to work hard to pay attention to the words and try to follow the notes and sing, but it is an enjoyable, ultimately profitable labor of love.

To the Lord and to one another. So I'm thankful for that. Amen, Jonathan. I'm thankful for parents.

We've lost our mother a few years ago to cancer, but our father is still with us. And I'm thankful that he's a member at my church.

I get to see him often. I lost my father -in -law last year and my mother -in -law lives with us.

And so I think losing one of each of them has helped me to be more thankful for who

I have and be appreciative of their legacies and continue to grow in my learning how to honor my parents.

I'm thankful for being given the thought process of all these things being a generational journey.

You mentioned the Psalter earlier, and I view those types of works as something that is lasting beyond those writers' persons.

They're gonna be taught to my sons. Their sons should teach it to their sons and so on and so on.

The Lord has really changed my mindset over the past couple of years, thinking instead of the next few months, he's got me thinking of the next few generations.

And that is a difficult swap to make. It's also a difficult swap to communicate to people, especially if you have parents that usually don't think that far out, but now they have grandkids, so they have to.

But trying to communicate the way that I'm thinking is it's difficult, but it's a fruitful labor because you're able to think through these things as well yourself, because I want to tell people why

I think cathedrals should be built and be built over hundreds of years, because they should be done well. And the same thing goes for church worship and music and any other skill that we're gonna put our hands to.

But we're very thankful for all of our listeners, and we hope we have some multi -generational listeners out there as well. And that wraps it up for today.

We are very thankful for our listeners, and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Have You Not Read?