November 30, 2016 Show with Tim Bayly on “Christian Fathers Using the Holidays for God’s Glory”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 30th day of November 2016, the last day of November, and I am delighted to have a returning guest today.

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Perhaps many of you remember Tim Bailey, senior pastor of Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana, who the last time he was on the program discussed his book,

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Daddy Tried, Overcoming the Failures of Fatherhood, well at least one of the last times he was on, he discussed that book.

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Well today we're expanding that theme with the upcoming holidays right around the corner,

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Christmas being the first, and we are going to be discussing today Christian Fathers Using the

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Holidays for God's Glory, and it's my honor and privilege welcoming you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Tim Bailey, and as we did last time, because there are people who are no doubt hearing you for the first time on the program today who did not hear the previous broadcast, it seems we're getting new listeners every week if not every day, and tell our listeners something about Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

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Clear Note is a church that is what, 20, 21 years old now.

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It holds the Westminster standards, in other words it's Protestant, Reformed, and Confessional, and probably the most interesting thing about it is that we have about 85 children under the age of three.

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Wow, how many? 85. Wow, that is unusual.

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We're also in a university community where Indiana University is and Bobby Knight no longer is.

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Last time I heard about that many children under one roof it was in a polygamist Mormon ranch.

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Yeah, that's about right. And I also want to give a plug to Jody Killingsworth at My Soul Among Lions.

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Jody is a member of the Clear Note Church, and are all three of the members of that group in your church?

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Yeah, they're all three from the church. Jody's our pastor for worship and music, and the other two men are in the church.

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But yeah, Jody, Indiana University has a huge music school and so we've been blessed with many, many good musicians.

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Well, praise God for that. And I really highly recommend everybody listening to look up the website for MySoulAmongLions .com.

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MySoulAmongLions .com because this is a really remarkable group who bring the

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Psalms to life in a modern way, although in many cases traditional as well.

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This is not rock music they're playing, but they're just different expressions of the

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Psalms. I thought that the one on Psalm 2 sounded very much like a bluegrass version, although Jody said that he thought bluegrass purists would disagree strongly about that.

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But I really love the group, and perhaps we'll play some clips during our interview today when we come in and out of commercial breaks.

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But fatherhood is obviously an important subject to you, so much so that you wrote a book about it.

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And perhaps before we go on to our specific subject about Christian fathers using the holidays for God's glory, perhaps you could give our listeners a synopsis about Daddy Tried Overcoming the

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Failures of Fatherhood, the theme of your book. Are you there,

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Tim? For some reason our guest Tim Bailey is not on the air, and we're going to...

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I'm sorry, that's that proximity sensor on my iPhone. Oh, okay. It just turned on, and the mute button got pushed by my cheek, so I'll try to hold it away from my cheek.

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I have a new screen installed. But anyhow, the thing about the book is that there's a great attack on fatherhood in America today, and I don't even think

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I need to explain it. There's just an attack, and it's partly an attack on manhood. Men today are very soft and fearful.

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It's partly an attack on God's fatherhood. You can't attack fatherhood without attacking God. It's partly an attack on authority.

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And so many men have grown up without being intimate at all emotionally with their dads, or with their dads being absent, or with their dads being abusers and tyrants, that you have this effort to recreate fatherhood, but so often it's hackneyed.

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It's rigid. It's wooden. It's like, this is what they told me to do, so I will do this.

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And what I think men don't have is they don't have stories and images from their childhood that they can pattern themselves after.

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So what I try to do is talk about my dad a lot, because he was a real dude.

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He was not fake at all, not at all. And just give some stories about his successes, some about his failures, because I think that living the

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Christian life often is being willing to fail. You know, perfectionists don't live by faith.

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And that's the effort of this book, to talk about discipline, to talk about instruction, to talk about why your wife's preferences should not ruin your home, that that's harmful to the children, to give men confidence.

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And I call it Daddy Tried, because that's a line in a story I tell about my own daddy, which is what

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I called until I became an adult, but anyhow. And I think that it's so helpful to men to be given a picture of another dad who was a very good father and who failed, so that when we fail, we don't fall to pieces and try to keep it off Facebook, you know?

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That's the synopsis of the book. Yeah, well, I want our listeners to know if you want to get a copy of Daddy Tried, you can go to warhornmedia .com,

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warhornmedia .com, and just click on where it says get the book, and you'll find out how to get the book.

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As always, you can get the vast majority, if not all of the books, by the guests we interview at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who are sponsors of our program, and their website is cvbbs .com,

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cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for Bible Book Service dot com, and we thank

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Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron. Well, with this particular theme that we have developed today, because Christmas is coming up and the

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New Year following, don't you think that these are opportunities, they're opportunities for a lot of things, but don't you think that they're opportunities for fathers who know that they have failed in innumerable ways, some more than others, some are more aware of their failures than others, but a good time to reach out to family members, to even children, whether they're grown or still small, to reach out to them with repentance and let them know, hey, daddy tried, but daddy's a sinner, and daddy needs the grace of God to be the best father he can be, and etc.

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Don't you think that this is a good opportunity for all fathers listening to do something like that? Yes, the holidays are a time when we're together, and it is a difficult time of year.

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It's very difficult. All, you know, pastors and funeral directors know that when a parent dies, you have the kids fighting, and I was talking to a funeral director recently, and we were talking about the fact that so often the fights that come at death, there are ways that the kids process all the animosity and jealousies and bitterness that they didn't get what they felt they deserved from their mother or their father or both of them, and so they all come out when you fight over who gets mom's chest of drawers from the bedroom, you know what

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I'm saying? And the same thing is true of Christmas. You know, the hopes and dreams and aspirations of every living soul come to that room at that dining room table at Christmas time, and everybody better get exactly what they want out of that, you know, the relationships, the food, you know, it's just, it's such a larger -than -life holiday.

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There's so much going on that it's very, very easy to blow up, to fight, to be self -pitying, to be bitter, to start arguments, and so really dads have to set the course, because the course is going to be set by someone, and it is the calling of a father to take responsibility for the preferences and moods and temper and joys and happiness of the

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Christmas season, instead of allowing the sins of himself or his family to establish the pattern.

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So I think it is a time for us to make amends for the past, but I don't think that dads who are very aware of their failures in the past should allow their awareness of their sins and failures of the past to keep them from doing the hard work necessary to lead their family's celebrations and various doings during the holidays.

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We just have to be willing to lead, knowing that we'll sin in our leadership, and so I wrote up some notes for today's talk, and one of the things

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I wrote up, I was saying things we should do during the holidays, one of the things I said was, apologize, ask forgiveness, and apologize, and then right after that I said, forgive, forgive, and forgive, and then right after that I wrote, teach, teach, and teach.

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We have to admit our sins, and we have to apologize, but man, we can't allow that to keep us from leading our homes and our families, and that's what

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I'm so fearful, that everybody's parading their weakness, and God accepts our repentance, and then he sends us out to live, and that's what we have to do with our families.

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I mean, you know, I, as much as any other man, I can look back on the past and just grieve over things that I've done year after year, um, but we have to lead our families.

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We have to, uh, we have to be the dad. We have to be the father, and if we're not the father, the dad, the home is not ordered properly, and it's sick.

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It just automatically is sick. When the children's sins are allowed to lead the home, Facebook is allowed to lead the home, tablets, computers, smartphones lead the home, television leads the home.

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There are a lot of usurpers that want to remove the celebration of Christmas and Jesus Christ from our homes, and we as dads need to guard against that.

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Yeah, I'm assuming that a lot of men do not apologize, especially to their children, because they think that is unmanly, but they would be deadly wrong about that, would they not?

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I, like, for instance, my father who passed away in 1998, one of the things when

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I, when I reflect on him and reminisce, one of the things that I cherish most about him was he was a man who was willing to humble himself and to apologize.

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I can remember him doing that to me when he was clearly wrong about something, or the way he reacted to something.

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I can remember him clearly doing it to my late wife. My late wife was an

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RN, and when she was strong and healthy and still working, she was taking care of my mother while she was dying of pancreatic cancer, and living in a hospital bed in our living room, and my late wife was taking meticulous care of her, and my father was going through an odd stage of being overly protective of my mother during this time.

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I guess it's kind of understandable, but he got so upset over my wife giving a gentle critique to my father over the way he was doing something while he was trying to care for my mother that my father cursed and yelled at my wife and threw her out of the house.

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I was not present at the time, but when

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I found out about that, it took him a while. It took him till after my wife, it took him till after my mother passed away, but I can still remember him showing up at my apartment with a bouquet of roses for my wife, and he wept and he apologized to her, and I did not think that he was unmanly because he did that.

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I thought all the more of him. Yeah, there's a lot of, that's a beautiful story, and that's a beautiful character in a dad.

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There's a lot of people that I don't know, Chris, honestly.

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Sometimes I despair about this stuff because I teach that the husband's the head of the home, and everybody thinks that that means he's supposed to be bombastic and perfect, and he can't do any wrong, and it's just the opposite.

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It's not until we lead that our sins become obvious, and when our sins become obvious, it's a wonderful opportunity for us to teach the most important thing we can teach to our children, which is that God is merciful to sinners, and how do our children learn that God is merciful to sinners?

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If we allow our wives to put the temper of the home into perfection, you know, we have to do this now, we have to do this, or if the dad never apologizes, how do the children learn the mercy of God?

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If their father doesn't forgive them, and if their father does not ask them for forgiveness, I mean, we are sinners living together.

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My goodness, if you ever know that, it's during the holidays. And don't you think that a lot of men out there are probably fearful to reach out to perhaps sons and daughters that have been alienated from the family, they're estranged from the family because of something perhaps horrific this father has done?

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He's repented, he's either become a Christian or perhaps restored after discipline or what have you, and do you have a word for these men who are just fearful because they are terrified of the negative reaction or rejection they're going to receive?

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Yeah, but look, we either fear God or we fear a man, and it's pathetic to waste our lives fearing man.

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Of course, you know, our children are going to throw it in our faces when we rebuke them.

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Well, look at you, you know, goody -two -shoes you, I guess you blew it, didn't you, or our wives especially.

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You know, our wives, I tell people sometimes I think my wife doesn't remember anything but the bad and I don't remember anything but the good, you know, and so wives can throw it in our faces too, but again, it can paralyze you if your goal is to not have anybody throw anything in your face, you'll never live, you know, you'll experience everything vicariously, you know, you'll read books, you'll watch movies, you'll, you know, speak in Puritanese, you know,

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Elizabethan English, and none of that is Christian faith. You know, when

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God commanded the Israelites, and when he commanded the

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Israelites in Deuteronomy 6, love the word of your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might.

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These words which I'm commanding you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons, and she'll talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, when you rise up, you should bind them as a sign on your hand.

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You know, we hear that and it's kind of sounds like the clickety -clack of the rosary, you know what

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I mean? Because we're so familiar that it loses its meaning, but what

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God is commanding is that Christian faith and the love of God permeate everything we do.

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Everything. And how can we love God without realizing our sin?

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I just, you know, Augustine in the Confessions has a section where he talks about whether or not it's sinful to relish sin in our dreams.

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And so Augustine teases out the truth that even our dreams we sin. This last week, you remember earlier my phone went dead?

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Yes. The reason it went dead was that earlier this week I had a dream right before I got up in the morning. I had a dream that I broke my cell phone, right?

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I've never dreamt it before, and so I got up, and as soon as I got up, I broke my cell phone. Don't you think that's funny?

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Yes, I do. And I bring that up because dreams themselves have moral content, and how can anybody know

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God and love Him without being aware of my sin? And once we're aware of our sin, we realize what

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Martin Luther said in the first of his 95 theses, that when our Lord said that you must repent,

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He was teaching us that the life of a Christian is a life of repentance. And so I don't know how to get it across because, you know, everybody thinks, well,

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I need to live my life in such a way that I don't need to repent. And it's exactly the opposite of Biblical truth.

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We should get better at repenting. The older and more holy we become, there should be more repentance.

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Our sins will change. We will be sanctified, but we'll also be sensitized more to the way sin pervades our desires.

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It's ubiquitous. And so this is what we need at Christmas time, is to realize why we would sing,

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O come, O come, Emmanuel, and ransom captive Jim Bailey. And I'm not speaking as if I'm not a

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Christian and not justified, you know, before God through the righteousness of Christ. That's not my point.

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But my point is that there is a law of sin and death, and it's like Owen, you know, points out so well.

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And so we need to live as sinners, not the kind of sinner that goes around and says, poor pitiful me,

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I'm just a broken man, don't be offended by me, because then we'll never lead. We'll never be a father or a husband.

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But confessing our sin in such a way that our children and our wife love us, because they see that we're real.

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There's so much plastic superficial fakeness in the church today.

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And it is not godliness. It's perfectionism, and it's the absence of living by faith.

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By the way, our email address, if you'd like to join us is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. Or you may remain anonymous, if you're going to be asking about a very personal, intimate, and private circumstance that would make you feel more comfortable remaining anonymous, and perhaps would make me feel more comfortable if you remain anonymous as well.

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But if it's not something like that, if it's a general question about fatherhood or our topic today specifically, then please at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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And we do have Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker in Greensboro, North Carolina.

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I usually don't give the full names of our listeners, but when it's a pastor from time to time, I identify who they are so that I can plug their church.

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Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker says, I'm eager to hear how you have fathered your home and pointing to the

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Savior Jesus Christ in direct contrast to society. I have failed in so many ways too, but one year

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I thought long and hard about teaching my wife and two daughters how to better reflect the proper foundation for gift giving during the

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Christmas holiday. I came up with this presentation that each of us use when giving a gift to a loved one in the same way that God the

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Father gave us his son Jesus as a gift of love. I give this gift of love to you.

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It has redirected our attention from materialism towards the gift of grace in Jesus Christ.

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May the Lord bless you and keep you. Well, it's a nice tradition you've started, Pastor Vanderwerker.

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And if you have any comments, do you have any comments, Tim? No, dear brother, thank you for that.

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That's very, very helpful. And of course, we do give the gift of love at Christmas time, and love is patient, love is kind, love does not keep a record of wrongs.

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Love is a very hard -edged thing, and it's a very, very difficult thing. Amen. And Shepherd's Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina, is where Pastor Vanderwerker is the pastor, and you can find them at s -f -o -f -g -s -o dot org.

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That's S -F for Shepherd's Fellowship of G -S -O,

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Greensboro, and that's dot org. And actually, you could go

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Grace in the Triad is a better way to remember it, graceinthetriad .com. Thank you,

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Pastor Vanderwerker, for contributing to today's program. We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, who says,

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Do you think that we as Christians often forget that God's grace covers all areas of the

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Christian life? Well, I'm not sure what he means by that, but yeah, we forget it all the time.

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And therefore, a lot of our lives are lived in a way that keeps us from having to depend on grace.

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We think we can run out of His grace, that we have to earn His grace. But, you know, there is so much talk about grace in the

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Church today that it really has it's lost its meaning, and I tell people that the most graceful worship services

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I've ever been in are those services where a member has confessed to a terrible sin and gets up in front of the congregation and confesses and asks for forgiveness.

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We're talking about unusual circumstances. And there's not a dry eye in the

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Church, and the grace of God is so beautifully evident at times like that.

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I think today in the Reformed Church, we think that we have to avoid repentance in order for there to be grace, and it's exactly the opposite.

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It's when we see our sin and others' sin that the grace of God becomes so precious to us.

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And I think that one, I'm guessing on Tyler's part, but since we were talking about fathers perhaps being filled with an anxiety, perhaps so much anxiety, that they fail to reach out with the love of Father to children that perhaps are alienated and they are perhaps estranged from the family because of this father's sins, and he is afraid of the reaction.

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Perhaps Tyler was thinking of the grace of God. If you're doing something in obedience to God, no matter what the reaction is from others,

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God will bless you, will he not? Yeah. I mean, again, he's the one that we live for.

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He's the one that we love. It doesn't mean we don't love our wives and children. He is the one that we aim for approval from.

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And so often, if we seek the approval of God instead of the approval of man, including our wife, it's scary because it will lead us at times to do things that are counterintuitive, which is kind of a euphemism for things that will anger our families.

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But again, God has called us to bring him and our love for him into our homes.

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One of the things I was thinking about talking to you earlier today, and I wrote up a couple of paragraphs that I want to read if you don't mind.

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Oh yeah, in fact, if you could read them right after we come back from the break, because we're going to a break. I'd rather not cut you off in mid -sentence.

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So we're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Tim Bailey, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. So don't go away. We will be right back after these messages.

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Chris Arnson here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.

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Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the

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Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation. I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Balcom, Conrad M.

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Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what

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G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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That's g3conference .com. Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the

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why do the heathen nations why do the heathen nations that is my soul among lions that group i was telling you about uh where all three members are of members of the group are members of our guests congregation clear note church in bloomington indiana and uh those uh three members of the group are jody killingsworth philip moyer and andrew henry that's jody killingsworth philip moyer and andrew henry and they are my soul among lions and don't forget to look them up on my soul among lions .com

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perfect gifts for christmas as we are actually discussing the holidays today we hope to play some more of these songs throughout the broadcast but you had a paragraph pastor tim that you were going to read and let me remind our listeners of our email address it's chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com if you have a question for our guest pastor tim bailey but pastor tim you have a a paragraph you wanted to read yeah i also sent you a link to uh my soul among lions is part of a larger group of musicians from our church i sent you a link to gabriel's message okay i will is that a song yeah gabriel's message it's on youtube if you look up good shepherd band gabriel's message and i thought you would love that oh great now let me uh let me let me talk a little bit about something that i think a lot about as i'm older and that's preferences okay i think that during the holiday seasons during christmas new years when you have your family come into the home um i think dads need to realize that there's no such thing as a family where someone's preferences don't rule the home okay i think of a few years ago when my mother asked my sister to pray at the beginning of christmas dinner and my sister pointedly as she prayed did not make any reference to the fatherhood of god she did not address god as father there were no male pronouns and it was very clear that she was doing this because she's a feminist and she repudiates the fatherhood of god okay and so that's an indication of how a preference can prevail in a home you know my mother asked her to pray she prayed and my mother didn't know she was going to pray that way so afterwards david my brother and i were both pastors we talked to my sister and said that we know that we belong to god because our hearts cry out all the fathers that it is impossible to be a christian and to repudiate the fatherhood of god it's impossible well you can imagine that to her we were taking what were our preferences because we're men you follow and trying to like guilt trip and force male preferences on her are you with me oh yeah definitely and and so she got very very angry and this is just typical of what goes on during the holiday season you never have a vacuum nature pours a vacuum and you never have a vacuum vacuum in a home you don't have a vacuum in a church someone's preferences are always prevailing and what i what i have increasingly felt in the last few years is that fathers must be jealous for their preferences ordering their home now i know that that sounds wacko it sounds like it's an argument for selfishness and pomposity and all this other stuff but if we can just get it into our head that a selfish child who's screaming because they didn't get the gift that they wanted if that child is not disciplined so that it doesn't make it uncomfortable with the that and everybody else in the house that child's preferences are prevailing over that household and it's wrong god is to prevail over the household he's put his fatherhood in man the husband the father and therefore the man is to not be apologetic about how his preferences in his home are the ones that he will implement now i know that leadership and authority are always subject to a lot of dangers and i know people are going to think well you're talking about sitting in a chair drinking a beer watching television watching football day after day and that's what you mean by your preferences and and i would say no that's not what i'm talking about at all i'm talking about if a child or if a grandchild is acting in such a way that they're oppressing everybody else by their sin by their false doctrine you know how you can have uh people at the table who are just spouting things that are directly contrary to scripture and it's your home and how have we gotten to the point where fathers feel like they can't speak up because their wives will be upset that they you know that the good vibes didn't prevail at the table there are many ways of dealing with other people's sinful preferences and desires and selfishness without appearing to be a monster okay so here's my point someone's preferences always prevail in the christian home so don't apologize for being jealous for your own preferences ordering your home rather than the preferences of your in -laws your children or your wife don't try though to claim that each of your preferences are principles and there's an old saying all of an englishman's preferences are a matter of principle and you don't want to be that way you don't want to act as if your choice of color or you're sitting at the head of the table is because that everything you do that your preference is a principle the real principle is that your preferences should have first place and that's not a violation of servant leadership and that's not a violation of your love for your wife and if you're putting other people ahead of yourself everybody in the home is going to be more comfortable when the father has the dignity of fatherhood that god has bestowed on and so um during conversations during devotion during the opening of presents and dinner uh i have a preference chris and you know what it is what's that do you get all the presents no i can't even come up with what i want my kids to buy me anymore anyhow no my preference is that we not allow smartphones to be used at a dinner table either while we're eating or while we're sitting around talking afterwards and i rule the the table that way i've even said to one of my elders who was there with his wife that i didn't want him taking a phone call and and talking on the phone while he was at our table with a bunch of guests it's just to me it's rude but even if other people don't think it's rude it doesn't matter it's a preference of mine and i won't allow it at my dinner table no texting no answering of phone calls i'm a pastor right and i've had this policy about answering machines and phones for decades and guess what nobody's ever died because we have this policy not yet things can always wait and you know if it's a physician i may make an exception you know for for one of the dodgers in our church sure but absolutely not for my grandchildren and my children now um would you think that a man who is wise in the way that he leads his home and serves as the head of his household that he would be wise though to delegate certain things to the preference of his wife for instance like i could give you i don't want to bash my dad uh i mentioned i mentioned one thing negative about him but but uh he all of my life it broke my heart because he never let my mother decorate the home the way the way she wanted to i could still i have this vivid memory of my parents going out shopping for furniture and i'm sitting home as a little kid i could still remember the door opening up my mother crying running up the stairs and i was wondering what's that about then seeing two moving men from the uh the furniture store carrying in a couch that was a red and orange plaid couch with revolutionary war battleships all over it and and that's my my father had got his way with all of that kind of thing and i really always thought you know he didn't have to have his way about everything he could have allowed his wife to pick out the kind of furniture she liked or that kind of thing what what's your reaction to what i just said well i absolutely agree with you um and that's the problem with authority and leadership you you can incessantly uh work you can work incessantly to try to show your servant leadership your deference your love your humility that the last shall be first and the first shall be last and what i would say is that today that's not the primary need today the problem is that men won't lead and won't take responsibility so for instance i know when i leave town to go right for a week up at the michigan house i know doggone well when i come home there's going to be something changed in my home and some of my old clothes are going to be thrown out are you with me yeah and there are some things that i make a decision about in our home in terms of the decorations and stuff we have for instance our family goes back centuries in gettysburg pennsylvania and so i have the grandfather clock that goes to the oldest son and i determined that it would stand in in the corner of our large uh dining family room and i have a picture of my grandfather that lost his arm in the civil war on the wall there and so there are some things that i have had a say over but my goodness um yes of course we should not i remember when my father -in -law died as soon as he died all of a sudden the entire family room was redone with new furniture and new everything and we all kind of chuckled about it you know and my mother -in -law mom was not embarrassed about it at all yeah she wanted it different ways than dad wanted it but she did get dibs on the dining room and the formal dining room and the formal living that was all her her choice so yeah of course i believe that husbands should uh should not just give the preferences to their wives and many things but also should submit to them if a wife says come to dinner we should come when she says to and not when it's convenient for us we should not eat until she's taken the first bite we should teach everybody at our table that they should not take a bite until the hostess has been able to sit down and and relax and unless you have guests there and they start eating and then it's graceful for you to join in with them even if your wife is still in the kitchen so yeah there are always exceptions to the rule but the point i want to make is a father and a grandfather when the family is gathered in their home he should be responsible for for everyone's comfort for the honor of god for the proper doctrine and he should lead it in such a way that everybody loves him loves the home and loves the god he loves and loves the doctrine that's true and if any man leads and and exercises his preference in such a way that he embitters his family and his wife he's a fool he's a fool he doesn't love them and so yeah there are ways of doing this wrong but i think men today are so intent on not having anybody be offended by them that the whole home you've got people texting during dinner whatever happened to fellowship and intimacy when you have to be serving the facebook god every minute of your lives even table of a family reunion yeah i i agree with you and uh i think i should have a drum roll right now because for the first time ever on iron sharpens iron we have a listener who has sent a question from nigeria and his name i uh hope what i am not mispronouncing his name but i probably am osinachi and he says dear chris my name is osinachi from lagos in nigeria and a regular listener of your program over a year now actually i usually download the podcast the day after the live broadcast due to time difference but i decided to stream the program live today i'd like to ask your guest a question how should a husband get his wife to share his zeal for the lord without appearing overly obtrusive both my wife and i attend the only reform baptist church at the moment in lagos nigeria sovereign grace bible church and we thank you very much osinachi and once again i apologize if i'm mispronouncing your name but his basic question to you pastor tim is how should a husband get his wife to share his zeal for the lord without appearing overly obtrusive well that's a heavy question and i thank uh the brother for asking it um there are many jobs there's much work that depends upon uh avoiding an error to one side and the other i don't know if you've ever watched any of these uh videos on the internet of guys riding mountain bikes or unicycles along the top of a ridge of a mountain and easily they can fall to their death to the left or to the right and when it comes to leadership whether it's the leadership of pastors and elders and titus two women in the church or it's the leadership of a business or it's the leadership of a home and a marriage um we have to avoid on one hand uh betraying and abdicating the authority and responsibility god's given us god has god said to abraham that he was to command his children to keep and his household his children and his household to keep the way of the lord and so that's what scripture says god said to abraham that he that he was to command his children in his household that includes his wife to keep the way of the lord and that's command authority and and god has given it to us and then god says that that's how he will fulfill the blessings he's promised abraham and his children god ordains that it is by the authority of the father and the husband that the blessings of god will come on the children when they keep the way of the lord and so on the one hand you don't ever ever want to lie to yourself and say that god will just hold your wife and your children accountable for their sins because very very often we have abdicated we've been lazy slothful fearful and have not had faith we haven't had faith to trust god to use our feeble efforts to bring conversion to bring repentance to bring faith to our family but on the other hand if we rape our daughters and i mean that literally because i have worked with many many incestuous and child abuse cases both siblings and fathers and even mothers wow many many yes wow many yes not just in our church but in other churches around the country and if we become predators against our family by beating them by using them for our own lusts or by using them for our own um pride and that's one of the great dangers in in in reformed families that have faith to have a lot of children and homeschool or christian school the father ends up i was listening to what's the name of that guy mark stein i was listening to mark stein on the radio this last week i don't often listen to radio i usually listen to books but i happen to turn them on is that the name of the guy that has the british accent or that's canadian or something i think that you're right he's on fox news from time to time yeah yeah yeah and he was talking about how it's always a problem with rulers that once they get into the top office of their land whether president prime minister or king that they believe they're above the law and they begin to act like it it's the duty of the people to remind him that he is under the law okay and i found it so helpful in thinking about reformed families and churches that when you become a pastor of a of a reformed church and when you become a father of a family that believes in fruitfulness and believes in male authority that so often we believe we're above the law and that we can use that home for our own selfishness our own pride our own lusts you know what i mean yeah and listen if we do that we bear the responsibility for the bitterness of our children and our wives and that is a terrible thing and and one of the reasons it's so terrible is that bitterness is never against us it's always against god people don't realize it but bitterness is a root that corrupts many and bitterness always has its final subject god we embitter our children not just against ourselves but against god and so on the one hand we have to avoid the sin of abdication of refusing to command our children in our household to keep the way of the lord and to honor god okay on the other hand we act as if our preferences our lusts are god's preferences we act as if our desires are god's you know and we're impatient we're we're angry and those are the two errors we have to avoid and it's an extremely difficult thing and one of the things i tell husbands who have abdicated for years and i'm trying to get them to leave their home is i tell them you know if you do start to leave your wife is going to fight you like you wouldn't believe but in time the fights will become less frequent and she will love you more because you finally are a man and so this question about you know how do i lead my family to love god and to have the same zeal for god as i have without embittering them i think is what he's asking don't you chris yeah i would think so yeah um i don't know how to do it except with prayer and with many mistakes my fear is not so much that a man that asks that question is going to embitter his wife and children i think the very fact that he doesn't want to embitter will help them to understand his heart my fear for him is that he won't take the risks that are necessary to have the father command authority that god commands us as he commanded abram to have in our home and i know in africa that there seems and i've spent some time over there in london zambia and um and a couple other countries incidentally and i know that what i what i feel deeply over there is that you you have men who are the pope of their home in their marriage and nobody can come near them they're very proud um they will use they will they will make unilateral decisions and their wives don't express an opinion okay that's one side and often in the church and i've heard this frequently in the church there are many elders pastors and and men of the church who use the members of their home sexually as a part of their um what would i call it their uh dictatorial uh authority then on the other hand you have many women who rule their homes and their husbands are just as oppressed but in a different way and what we don't have in you in missions and in the instruction of the colleges and the pastor's colleges is the nature of biblical manhood and womanhood that the wife uh is a fellow uh bearer of the image of god with her husband and that she has a different calling but it's it's not a less important calling than the husband and that the husband leads in such a way as to cause his children and his wife to love god and i'm afraid that the missions that i've seen rarely have the faith to call men to leadership because there's so much abuse of masculinity in africa still it's uh and so i'm trying to think through what it would mean for our listener in his situation where there is so much oppression of women and children by men but unfortunately what is going to happen now in the coming decades in africa is the women are going to end up oppressing the men you know the it's going to swing the whole way to the other side so god bless our brothers he tries to do that but remember that god commanded abraham to command his children in his household and that's what i think we have to remember yes one thing that comes to mind uh i uh arrange well i did arrange theological live theological public debates every year and i'm actually uh resurrecting that uh god willing in early january for those of you listening keep your ears out for my next annual theological debate between dr tony costa who is a reformed baptist apologist and faculty member at toronto baptist seminary and robert singenis who is a roman catholic apologist debating on mary sinner saved by grace or sinless queen of heaven that is the theme of the debate it's going to be held at the carlisle theater and 900c theater but i digress one of the reasons i brought up the debates is because every year i noticed that there were christian women who were starving to get involved in something and they were volunteering to do all kinds of things at these debates because i i was doing a lot of things initially all by myself and it was really difficult and it was interesting to see that was predominantly christian women that wanted to help and i would think that one thing that might the lord might use to strengthen this what brother's wife's zeal is if if he planned out different evangelical activities for the spreading of the gospel in some fashion and he gave his wife a certain role you know a certain activity to do i don't know what you think of that suggestion yeah that's a great activity uh a great a great suggestion i'm sorry not a great activity um i think that working together with your wife with your children is one of the best ways of passing on your affection for god your love for god your zeal for god um i had written down a note to mention uh going christmas caroling at christmas time and going to nursing homes and stuff it's something we can do with our families that really is is very sweet it's something that my parents did um and you know i think a lot of times i honestly what i think is i think that a family including our wives end up loving the things that the father loves okay that's my basic premise yes we have to command our children to keep the way of the lord but let me tell you i have rarely known a son who doesn't want to love the things that his father loves and when jesus says that he is here on earth to do the work that he has seen his father's work the work that he's seen his father doing that's part of that affection leading and so i think one way to lead our wives is to show our love for god in tangible concrete ways our zeal for god honestly you know you bring up a debate one of the themes i hit on most frequently here in this church with all these young families is i keep telling parents argue at the dinner table don't quarrel argue raise your children to argue you remember elizabeth elliott right yes well elizabeth used to come to our house for dinner because her family and our family were friends in philadelphia and every time she came you know what happened what and my father went at it hammer and tongs they just argued and they'd get angry i grew up seeing my father disagree with the guests at the table without breaking relationship but with real passion and zeal and anger and sometimes mockery sarcasm and i think that that's also something that we should have at our dinner tables you know i know people think well no that would ruin the meal but um it really doesn't because it gives a purpose to the table because then the table teaches christian truth and um and so yeah i think that there are many ways of skinning the cat but i think when it comes to leading our wives to have the zeal and and and and love for god that we have um arguments of reading out loud i've read when we some of the most formative things in our marriage have been me reading out loud to my wife things that i was reading that i was just blown away i remember reading the christian mind by harry bull myers when we were first married bonhoeffer's life together sections from the uh the westminster standards um we'd read pg woodhouse for fun um reading out loud is also something that is very very helpful um because it teaches our children our lives what we love it leads them in the direction that our hearts turns is dead by the way i had the unique privilege years ago back in the 90s i believe it was i had the unique privilege of every sunday picking up elizabeth elliott's mother -in -law this would be lars gren's mother from the uh dominican dominican village nursing home it was a catholic actually it wasn't a nursing home it was an assisted living facility run by dominican nuns and but it was open to the public whatever religion you might happen to be in and uh i used to pick up uh lars gren's mother elizabeth elliott's mother -in -law every sunday and bring her to church with me at elizabeth elliott's request because she knew my pastor she had written uh endorsements uh forwards and things for a publishing ministry that my pastor started so i just wanted to share that bit of that's that's sweet yeah she and her brother uh tom howard up and uh and her brother uh dave howard the family was uh were very good friends of ours and large was a trip uh he i i asked elizabeth and her brother dave howard to come and speak at the church here in bloomington at the end of the time you know how he takes care of the books at her at her speaking events and at the end of the time he said hey tim come take a book and and and have elizabeth sign it and i said no no no i said i don't want elizabeth to sign my book i said i want you to sign it no you don't you don't want me to sign the book have elizabeth sign the book and i said no really seriously lars you sign it so he said all right he took the book and he signed it and handed it to me you know what he had written inside the book what he he said to tim all the best from the third you know who that's funny isn't that funny yes it is we're going to explain to your listeners that he was elizabeth's third husband right and many of you may have heard of uh her first husband who was a martyr for the gospel uh bringing the gospel to the alka alka indians in uh south america that is right yes yeah yeah and um that was jim elliott a very brave and heroic figure from fairly modern church history i guess that happened in the 1950s correct yes and uh so she after uh after jim was martyred she eventually married uh two more men and finally the third was uh lars grin and it was his mother that i used to take to the to church from her assisted living facility for quite a number of months before she got too frail to to go out and do that but uh she was a very sweet very sweet sweet lady but we have to go to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air uh our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa oh by the way i have a uh a surprise for osanachi uh i didn't have uh books to give away today we had already given away the vast majority of tim bailey's books the last time we had him on the program but i do have an extra copy of tim bailey's book and i'm gonna have that sent to you absolutely free osanachi and i thank you for making that a lot more affordable to me by giving me the pastor uh the address of the pastor friend you have in rincon georgia so i will send the book and a bible a brand new new american standard bible with a beautiful cover with a cross embossed in the cover it's a really gorgeous bible i will send both of those to you to the home of that pastor and rincon georgia uh since you are a first time questioner and uh the first time on top of that a first time a listener in nigeria who actually submitted a question i have may have many listeners in nigeria that don't know about but uh you by the way uh osanachi you have disproven a myth that i have often heard repeated by africans that who have basically taken a twist on the no good thing can come from nazareth i've heard many times from africans no good thing can come from nigeria but uh you have disproven that so now know sovereign grace baptist church and osanachi in uh nigeria are definitely good things in nigeria but we have to get our break right now and don't go away we're going to be right back with more and tim bailey i'm chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio and here's one of my favorite guests todd friel to tell you about a conference he and i are going to hello this is friel host of wretched radio and wretched tv and occasional guest on chris's show iron criticizing i think i think that's what it's called hoping that you can join chris and me at the g3 conference in atlanta my new hometown it is going to be a bang up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation with paul washer steve lawson d .a

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carson voddie bockham conrad and bayway phil johnson james white and a bunch of other people we hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference .com

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g3 conference .com thanks todd i think see you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth thrive in financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial consultant at seven one seven two five four six four three three again seven one seven two five four six four three three to learn more about the thriving difference we know we were made for so much more than lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story just survive we were made to thrive iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solid rock remodeling .com

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that's solid rock remodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call in brook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org the angel gabriel from heaven his wings as drifted snow his eye all hail said he that lowly maiden most highly favored thy son shall be so and that's gabriel's message by the good shepherd band and tim you said this is a another band where the members are all a part of the congregation there at clear note church in bloomington illinois yeah the band goes out and sings so they renamed themselves my soul among lions and that's really connected to them putting into song all of the 150 psalms they're on their second cycle now and three of the members of good shepherd band are my soul among lions but yeah they're all musicians from our church and i misspoke i said the bloomington illinois i meant indiana sorry about that it happens as a matter of fact elizabeth elliott large called me and he said you know what we thought you were in bloomington illinois and so we're not going to be able to make it for the first talk that's okay and you know what i said to ours i said no it's not okay you have to be here a lot of people mistake bloomington illinois bloomington minnesota and bloomington indiana and well by the way uh an anonymous listener from indiana uh wants to say i'm so encouraged by tim's conversation with you about male leadership in the home today i pray men have such courage to lead their homes and marriages in this way and glorify the lord what a different message from the worlds thank you so much so that was from an anonymous listener in indiana that's sweet thank you i appreciate that and uh one of the things that is of great concern to you i know is that uh men are becoming increasingly emasculated in the church that even in uh what has been known as conservative christianity i'm not even talking about liberal mainline denominations i'm talking about conservative evangelicalism those who believe in the inerrancy of scripture uh those who are known as being stalwarts even for some of the reformed biblical truths that you and i cherish that you believe that almost like a frog in a kettle syndrome is happening where where men are becoming more and more effeminate in some way but it's such such a subtle thing that's occurring that many of us might not even realize what's happening around us yes chris in first corinthians 6 9 it says that it gives a list of the sinners the types of sinners that will not inherit the kingdom of god and two of the words used there in greek malachoi and arsenic refer to soft men and men who lie with men so they refer to men who in their carriage and conduct and tastes and the way they live are soft instead of hard that's literally what the word means and it has a long stellar history and in the ancient world it's very clear what it means it's soft men and then it says men who lie with men well when you're a soft man eventually it's not surprising that you end up getting into bed with other men because you don't have the principled faith firmness to date the opposite sex and so you just fall into the same sex all right and what's going on in america today in the church the conservative churches that um and there are a lot of reasons for this part of it is our children i don't think fathers are teaching their sons and daughters to be men and women i think they're just teaching them to be persons and if there are homes that do teach how to be men and women so often it's hackneyed it's like i was saying earlier it's wooden it's it's kind of like somebody has read a book on what it's supposed to be and then they do you know what the book says and it just doesn't work that way and so what you end up having is you end up having in the church and in the home uh a deep aversion to risk i think if i were to characterize the mistake of womanhood it is to not understand the necessity of risk for the maturation of a godly young man and so what happens then is there's no risk in the pulpit there's no application of the sermons there's no preaching to the conscience there's no calls for repentance the pastor largely leads the church through the work of women because women are a lot easier to get to do what you want than men are the pastors don't rebuke men because a man that you rebuke either loves you or kills you or do you understand what i mean by that yes and and and and it's a self -fulfilling prophecy because then we don't form men in our churches and then the men that think they want to become a pastor and to shepherd souls we send off the seminaries where i'm sorry to say it i've sent a lot off a lot of men off and it removes the male principle from them because seminaries are really uh places of scholarship and intellectuals and uh it's not that we shouldn't have scholarship in the pulpit i'm not i'm not saying that but the curriculum of every seminary certainly is a curriculum with gordon conwell and my brothers and i went there is if you ever have conflict in your church you failed well then you go to the book of acts and you look at the apostles and you think they were nothing but failures and so we remove the principle of risk from the training and raising of our sons and even at the church we're risk averse and conflict avoiding and we end up uh a friend of mine is a pastor says that in the evangelical church the men that preach don't have a male principle okay and he says you know we might as well go ahead and have women preachers because if what we want from our preachers is that they're feminine and soft and effeminate soft men women can be women much better than men can be we might as well have female preachers now he's not in favor of female preachers but what he's pointing out is in some ways it's almost worse to turn a man into a woman than it is to just have a woman up there right i can remember having an unfortunate conversation with somebody who will remain nameless and uh i started uh during the conversation making jokes about this fairly well -known charismatic couple who had a television program and the wife did most of the preaching and she had a much louder and more powerful and more gravelly voice than the husband and uh i was making fun of them to this individual who i was speaking with who was a member of a conservative reform church and after i'm laughing and i'm hearing dead silence and he said uh chris that's my aunt and uncle i said you're kidding me i wouldn't have thought that in a million years so i had to obviously profusely apologize though i uh didn't have to back away from my stance on um male headship in the church but uh it was uh just a very uncomfortable circumstance that i was never expecting to happen but uh let's see we have we have a listener uh cj in lindenhurst long island new york who says i agree with everything you're saying but don't you think that some folks take this too far and they slanderously accuse a man of being effeminate just because he is soft -spoken i know plenty i know plenty of powerful preachers who know the bible inside and out that are passionate when they preach but they are quiet men it's just their nature there's nothing wrong with that am i right yeah but i can agree in particular but i i'm afraid i disagree with his with the general of what he's saying because in the particular sure you can carry people's attention especially in our overly um sensitive day when television uh has you know an amplification has removed uh the need for you know whitfield to be able to speak to 10 000 okay um it's more appealing to have a man who speaks quietly in a conversational tone i know that and so in the general i can say yeah it doesn't mean that you have to that every man who speaks softly is effeminate some of the men with the most firm principled lives have been men who some of the most serious christians if you understand what i mean by serious christian godly um have been men who are soft -spoken but here's the point i said i agree in the specific but probably not in the general we must begin to teach the specifics of what manhood and masculinity and firmness are if our sons are not going to grow up to be soft men that means that there are actually attributes and trace uh there are ways of living there are things that you do that are hard and good for a man to do and this is where we get all uptight because we don't want people accusing us of being you know machismo of being wooden of all this other stuff but then you end up not teaching your daughters what it means to be feminine your sons what it means to be masculine because you're afraid that everybody's going to accuse you of you know the terrible sin of sexual stereotypes right and so for instance um you know i'm yeah i'm writing a book about this right now actually and um in the book i i go through this and i say so somebody's going to say to me right you don't want me to be a soft man so i guess that means i can't like poetry and i can't play a flute and i can't you know i can't wear lavender shirts and and look like i said earlier if we believe that god's word is true when it says soft men will not inherit the kingdom then we have to come up with something that we are willing to say is a soft man we can't just leave the word out there and execute it you know we can't not preach it in other words god made men to be hard and now immediately you're going to have everybody saying oh yeah i had a dad who was a real hard -nosed man you know i guess that's what you mean and it's like i'm so tired of this i'm going to start responding to men that say that to me yeah i guess that is what i mean you know i mean come on we have to be willing and so you know for instance does this mean that i'm in favor of what i what what my daughters refer to is the prairie muffin view of femininity in christian homes now i hate it i don't believe that every little girl should wear hats and have lace around her collar and all this okay my daughters call them prairie muffins all right i think there's another definition for a prairie muffin isn't there well i don't know but that's that's maybe i don't understand the use of it well i'm talking about prairie muffins that would be turned into fertilizer of some kind oh okay it wouldn't be beyond my daughters to have used that expression but but listen my mother was strong like you wouldn't believe and my wife is extremely stubborn and my daughters i had my daughter a year ago she called me out at the table in front of everybody sitting at the table she she was furious at me and she told me to come out on the deck with her and she had at me when we went out on the deck so obviously i'm not trying to set up something that's that's plastic and superficial and you know it's the repristination of the past that's the last thing we need is to live as museum pieces of the past as reform people i'm sick of it it permeates the reform world you know where we're more spiritual if we speak in elizabethan english and read the puritans i mean the puritans are great but the reason they're great is that they were real men with principles and when they were told that they were not going to worship god in the freedom of the spirit but we're going to conform you know to the wigs into the anglican church the state church 2100 of them left their pulpits one sunday the great ejection these were men of principle who were firm and i think what we have to do is begin to ask ourselves again what is it that raises firm men and that or or hard men and soft women because that's literally what malachoi says soft men and so we don't want to raise soft men we don't want our sons to grow up to be soft men and yet we also don't want them to grow up to think you know what was the name of that dude that that everybody was reading and he wrote a book he and his wife about taking risk and how god takes risk with us real popular book i can't remember the name of it but but there's this opposite masculinity that delights in risk for risk sake and ends up killing people i think the whole gopro culture is all about the the romanticization of death and the closer you come to death while you're getting your fame you know the the greater a person you are and that's just awful because you know taking movies of yourself coming very close to dying is not glorifying and you're always you're always risking other people's lives when you're doing things like that yeah yeah and you're risking your your loved ones your wife your children you know those guys on mount everest in the death zone that were on the phone with their wife who's pregnant as they die you know it's just this does not honor life the way god wants us to but i think that i think what we have to do is we have to be willing to say what it means to raise up our sons to be hard men and boy that's a nasty statement because everybody thinks hard is without any question universally wrong and sinful now one's one thing i want you to clarify let me say one other one other thing chris if you're a woman and you have a nursing infant at your breast and you have a husband and you have somebody trying to do to you what the sodomites were trying to do at the door of lot's house what do you want what you want is a hard man right yeah that's what i'm talking about a man that a woman is able to focus on being a mother a wife a tightest two woman teaching the younger women in the church without fear of the enemy storming her gates of her house through the television through nakedness on the television okay or at the front door through rape or at the borders of her country or at the church through false doctrine that's the hard man that we have to learn to train again yeah i one of the things i just wanted you to clarify is because i cannot see so far unless i'm missing something something that was innately a part of cj's question that you disagreed with though i don't see how cj uh when he was just saying no well listen the reason that i said i think i might disagree with him in the in the general is that the minute we start eating away at things that we don't want to say constitute a soft man so for instance a man that talks with a soft voice well no no no that's not a soft man he just might have a soft voice okay wearing lavender well no no no he might be colorblind actually i when i buy blue shirts sometimes they're lavender or purple because i'm colorblind and so i'll wear it my daughter's my wife will go what you know and so you know wearing lavender playing the flute listening to or writing poetry all these things we say well that's not soft man that's not soft man that's not soft man and what i so often want to say to people is okay so you're telling us that none of these things have anything to do with whether you're a soft man whether you're effeminate or not would you please give me something specific that is effeminate something that's where i say i might disagree with him in the general because it might be that when you put them in a corner and say all right now give me something that is an indication of effeminacy in a man like for instance you could have a man that has a naturally quiet voice but even speaks boldly even though he's not like for instance i know fundamentalists who think all preachers outside of their circles are preaching softly even if they're preaching passionately and boldly if they're not screaming with veins popping out of their neck they're not they're not preaching the way somebody should preach and uh and obviously i think there's a difference between that and a man who has effeminate posturing effeminate ways of walking even i think a man i mean chris this is my point describe to me what is effeminate walking and the minute you do you're going to have people calling you up and saying now wait a second you know my my little brother has cerebral palsy and that's the way he walks are you saying he's effeminate well i'm speaking speaking of a man who walks like a woman is really what i'm saying all right okay so what is it he sashays right he swings his hips yeah that kind of a thing yeah and and see what i'm trying to say is we we all are so fearful of being called sexist of being called misogynist that we will not take the risk of teaching our sons to walk and to speak like men and so for instance how many young men today look in your eyes when they talk to you how many of them know how to shake your hand and so everybody well come on that doesn't mean they're effeminate i say okay then tell me what does indicate that somebody's effeminate they say well it's different from culture look chris in the in in corn the apostle paul wrote to them about hair length can you imagine in your church or my church or our churches if we got up and talked about nature itself teaching that it's a shame for a man to have long hair you imagine the repercussions of that in our congregations or women having short right right yep that certainly would uh create an outroar or not maybe not necessarily in my church but in a lot of church well not necessarily in mine although much i have had people angry where when i was preaching on that passage because i say okay it's culturally relative i agree but there must be some substance to it and we must have some idea of what that substance is even if it's different from the time of christ and by the way uh bill my dear friend pastor bill shishko if you're listening i'm sorry that i used the phrase my church i know it's the church of the lord jesus christ you know every time i say my church he ribs me he says it's not your church it's the church of the lord jesus christ absolutely i try to avoid saying that myself well we have to go to our final break right now and if you'd like to join us there is about 25 minutes left so our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests right after these messages so don't go away chris arnson here and i can't wait to head down to atlanta georgia and here's my friend dr james white to tell you why hi i'm james white of alpha and omega ministries i hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor josh bison praise mill baptist church at the georgia international convention center in atlanta january 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation i'll be joined by paul washer steve lawson da carson vody balkan conrad and bayway phil johnson rosaria butterfield todd friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to pillars of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory for more details go to g3 conference .com

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that's g3 conference .com thanks james make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there i'm james white of alpha and omega ministries the new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible translation the nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known for the nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues from compact to giant print bibles find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com

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tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island well there's good news wading river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

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that's wrbc .us iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat center nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400 for generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word an additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries 90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from wilmington and easily accessible scores of notable christian groups frequently planned conferences at harvey cedars like the navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of confessing evangelicals find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives see how my foes increase see them rising up against me they rob my soul of peace and say there is no help in god but you oh lord shield you you lift my head i'm as safe with you out on the field as in my bed you keep my life concealed you are my and you answer from your mouth that's my that's you are my shield by my soul among lions uh the members of the group as i had said earlier jody killingsworth philip moyer and andrew henry and they are all members of clear note church in bloomington indiana and if you'd like to look up how to order those cds for one of my favorite of all time groups now and i mean that i'm not just saying that that's one of the reasons i'm playing them their music during this interview uh one of my favorite groups uh my soul among lions .com

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is their website my soul among lions .com and i would love to i would love to get them out um to uh to carlisle pennsylvania sometime to perform at the carlisle theater it seats 900 people so hopefully we could work something out uh are you there pastor ten yep chris i'm here and uh phil and jody of my soul among lions are both pastors at our church and they're actually going to come out to pennsylvania phil was from the philly area great they're going to be making a tour out in that direction so you should see if you can hook on to that yeah i definitely want to do that because uh that would be great uh if we could perform out here and uh our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com oh by the way i forgot to mention to you pastor tim i too am colorblind and uh one of the uh times i was introducing my friend james white before a debate when i was listing the books that he had written one of the books that he's written uh is called the same sex controversy a lot of what we're talking about today is involving that uh that book but i said uh that's not to be confused with my own book about my struggle with color blindness called the same socks controversy um we have uh let's see we have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who wants to know uh isn't it always good for men to when they are exercising their role as head of their household to at the same time ask their wives a lot of questions to see if they have overstepped their bounds in any way not that the man is always going to acquiesce to what the wife says but obviously since men just like women and all humans are tainted with sin we make errors we sin and we overstep our boundaries sometimes unconsciously don't you think that we should be asking our wives advice about that or your wives about that well if she hadn't added about that i would have agreed with her um because yes obviously a man is not loving his wife if he doesn't know what his wife thinks is the decision that he just made including that she disapproves but when she added about that what she's really saying is that a husband should want to lead in a way that his wife approves of his leadership that she doesn't think he's overstepping his bounds in his leadership and listen that just is not possible what that does is that cedes the leadership to the wife it makes the husband into a speaking um megaphone for his wife and it ends up having his wife be the one that makes the final decision about his leadership and you know it i'm telling you god has god has not set up um our homes and our marriages that way and if husbands only lead in a way that they know approve of um or if their final concern when they make a decision is that their wife doesn't think they've overstepped their bounds i'm telling you it removes the initiative and responsibility of leaders let me use let me let me give you an illustration let's take it away from the question of man and woman and let's just take it into leadership in general um if you're in leadership you often have to delegate authority okay so we delegated authority to the musicians that are a part of my soul among lions and good shepherd band and they began to write music and we moved into a new building when we moved into the new building we didn't we're very poor because of how many young people we have and how many we're just very poor as a church okay not i mean financially with money and so we moved into our new sanctuary it was a gymnasium and we were not able to afford the sound treatment that would keep an echo out and for various reasons we ended up uh having sound problems and the sound problems were that we had a number of members who were very upset about how loud the the musicians were on sunday morning well look i thought the musicians were too loud okay but here were these young men just learning how to lead worship and what am i going to do i'm going to tell them turn it down you know what is there anything in the church that i'm not the final say on in other words if if i if the elders and the pastors have delegated authority to them to lead our worship and our music what are we going to do we're going to make them uh impotent in their leadership by really having all the final decisions rest with the elders and with the pastor and so despite my belief that they were too loud and and i had a strong belief about that i did not express an opinion to them about it because i didn't want to remove their initiative and their zeal and you know as time went on they did turn down a little bit but what i noticed was their zeal completely changed the congregation's worship because now you were able to just passively sit in the seat and sing soprano and auto tenor bass but you were they were demanding that we lift our hands that we kneel during worship and that we enter into the singing with joyful hearts and it was very hard to be diffident in the congregation while they did that in other words on one hand i thought with their leadership i didn't approve of it but on the other hand if i'd spoken up and what i noticed is is they kept leading they turned down a little bit but i also noticed that when i got up to preach instead of me feeling like the congregation was dead there was a zeal and expectation of the congregation when i began to preach that i had never experienced before so i want to encourage women to not be afraid that's what peter says he says not don't give way to fear your husband will make mistakes he will irritate the heck out of you all kinds of times uh he will sometimes even make fun of you in front of friends but listen you are wise you sin against your husbands all the time and so if we're just going to go into a perfectionist state where the husband just ultimately wants to make sure his wife doesn't think he overstepped his and the wife is is is is reduced to some sort of uh pristine image that you put up on a wall and admire there is no living going on in that home we have to be willing to make mistakes and to sin if we're going to lead and a wise wife will be tolerant of her husband's mistakes when she doesn't approve of him and it won't the home won't be about just making sure that mama's happy so everybody else can be happy and uh we have let's see we have rj in white plains new york who says do you have any books other than the one that you've written that you would heartily recommend in regard to christian manhood christian parenting and being a christian husband and father well there's only one book really that i've recommended for two decades that's been written today that i have the highest recommendation for and that's a book called reforming marriage by a guy named doug wilson he's a friend of mine um doug has gotten involved in some unwise theological positions that a lot of people won't listen to him for but the federal vision you mean yeah yeah when doug is pastoral he's at his best and i've said that to him i wish he would write more pastorally and less theologically um although i'm in agreement you and i are agreement with most of what he says theologically but the federal vision is just it's terrible i wish he would just publicly say i was wrong and i repent um and i've said that to him many times personally that i wish he would just say i was wrong but doug has not been able to do that um but i'm unapologetic at being an admirer of doug and his character and his family and the schooling movement he's led i like his blues band i like his blues band that's sort of yeah yeah and so i i i would recommend reforming marriage um i would absolutely recommend daddy tried because it's not a book simply about fatherhood it's a book about manhood then i would recommend another book and this one's a little weird um i don't know how i could live today and be sane without reading gk chesterton i cannot emphasize enough yeah he was roman catholic but he didn't really import a lot of roman catholic theology into his writings well it's pretty funny he hates calvinists hate right and and when he writes about them it's the one time when he writes when he doesn't even make me angry because i just think he's an idiot he doesn't know what calvinism is no seriously he just doesn't even know what calvinism is well he does now i said he does now yes yes but you often run into this with the best roman catholics that that you realize they don't have a clue what calvinists believe what the doctrine but nevertheless get get his little book called what's wrong with the world and specifically read his essays in there it's a it's a it's a it's a collection of essays and some of them are pretty hard to understand and not maybe apropos they're not all on sexuality but the ones on sexuality read his essays where he describes the difference between men and women because what we have to realize today when we contend for the faith on this issue of sexuality is that the reason we're doing it is not because we as men want perquisites we want you know to be able to puff our chest out the real reason to fight for manhood is because the only way to begin again to protect our wives from being despised as mothers and wives is to kill the egalitarian feminism that's corrupted the church we can't have mothers continue to say when they're asked what do you do they say well i'm just a mother there is no greater position there is no harder work than being a mother and that is not patronization not patronization at all and gk chesterton says this he he has several essays where he says you know something he says a woman sends her husband out of the house in the morning and he makes shoes all day and he spends his entire life making doing nothing but making shoes so that his wife can introduce her children to the world and he says i will not feel sorry for women because of the smallness of the task but because of the hugeness of the task wow that's pretty profound yeah and when you read that i read that to my oldest daughter when she was sunk in being a young mother and depressed one sunday we were for dinner so i just opened that book up and began to read to her and it was it was like better than penicillin than pneumonia it just absolutely helped her to see that she shouldn't listen to the world that she needs to listen to god and honor him and that she needs to give herself to motherhood because there's nothing greater in the world and i know women hear me say that and i'm sure many of them that gets they just get so irritated that some some idiot out in the midwest is patronizing them but it's not what i'm doing it is extremely difficult to nurse children and to raise toddlers without always being angry okay it's very difficult to be patient with children who are whiners it's very hard to continue i was reading a biography of augustine recently and by a guy named brown and one of the things augustine says about children is he says that child rearing is agony and he's commenting on how much of raising children is causing them pain so that they learn okay and listen the majority of that is done by mothers surely by virtue of the amount of time that they spend with the children and so i would say read chesterton absolutely read chesterton um now i have and and the book i would recommend is what's wrong with the world now another book that is kind of weird but i would highly recommend it is um a book called the reform pastor by by richard baxter yeah why is that weird well it's weird because they're asking me about sexuality and what books teach manhood and i think that the reform pastor is a wonderful treatment of uh of manhood because it's a book about what a biblical pastor how he'll shepherd the flock okay and so it's not speaking about the home it's speaking about the church right it starts out by talking about our own souls looking to our own soul and then it talks about discipline and if there's anything that manhood brings into the home it's an objective commitment to discipline and to standards that is often something that a wife is very fearful of because she's afraid it will ruin relationships and so i think the reform pastor is good and then anything jc ryle writes about the home it's just superb you know the bishop ryle yes the 19th century low church anglican calvinist yeah or amerolian non -federal visionaries well i thank you so much for being our guest today and i know i want to give out your websites again warhornmedia .com

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for the book warhornmedia .com you can also go to the clear note bloomington .com

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website for the church clear note bloomington .com and of course my soul among lions .com