Pastors' Panel Podcast- Unconditional Election

Welcome to the Pastors' Panel Podcast

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the pastor's panel podcast. We are thankful that you are with us tonight. We're thankful to be back. I'm thankful to be with these guys. We are we're just so blessed too blessed to be stressed in there, right?

I'm really thankful for these guys thankful for you Watching we'd like for you to share we would like for you to participate. Be with us ask questions. Say hello, let us know that you're watching and let's have a good time together discussing God his character his nature and his word and all that he wants us to know.

I'm with Dan and Claude and guys. I'm the reason one of the reasons I'm thankful for you guys is because When we do these things, I know that when I When I'm posting or when Claude's hosting as the host we kind of Moderate it, but I like to ask you guys questions and Jonathan as well when he's able to join us.

You guys have been communicating with people for a while you You you talk to people on a regular basis and and I'm convinced that when I hear you guys speak. You hold the same conviction that I do I see or hear from your heart that You you are you stand on true?

You want to stand on truth, but you want to stand on truth in love in your presentation. And I hear that from your hearts and your conversation. And then that's the message that I want to be proclaiming through this this video.

So when I ask you questions, I'm thinking about the people who might be listening. And I know that when I hear Claude and Dan and Jonathan answer, I know I'm hearing a Pastoral answer and I'm thankful for that and praise the Lord and I know that Folks will be edified by your answers.

And so With that being said I didn't want to say this too I feel like we're equal here. And if you guys want to ask questions if you want to Jump in somewhere always feel free to do that. So there's a lot of freedom here.

So, how you guys been doing. Dan. What's it. So, how's your how's your prep going for your storm?

Man, I don't know. I'm trying something something new and different. I actually went and laid out big blue tarps down the driveway. I'm hoping I can just grab on to one end of it and pull. But I'm really not sure how it's gonna do.

I'm sure I'm not gonna be able to pull the whole foot of snow over the driveway. But thinking maybe if I can get it to three four inches and lay it back down and then maybe get it again before I leave I might be able to take care of it that way.

It may just completely like freeze to the driveway. I may be in trouble.

And.

Dan's preparing to preach this Sunday. So we want to be in prayer for him and Hopefully he'll get that posted or I can post it when he shares it to the page. I look forward to that. Absolutely. Yeah, so tonight Claude well, I don't want to skip over you brother.

You doing okay? Oh, yeah. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good.

I'm rolling right along. Oh.

The Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Well tonight we're discussing the doctrine of unconditional election. And I'm glad we're doing that because our last discussion was on total depravity and that discussion Will leave you totally hopeless.

So we're we're moving forward right along with God's gospel and in the next part is unconditional election, which Brings brings the hope back. Leaving us with you know, the law of God, you know. That's one of its intentions is to leave us hopeless to see our true state to see our true selves.

I Made this. I made this video this this past week. Tell me what you guys think I was thinking about. And I was actually listening to a sermon. They were talking about Isaiah where he talks about Of being a man of unclean lips and being among a people of unclean lips and he says woe is me.

I am undone and The preacher was talking about Undone meaning Unraveled completely unraveled and and the picture that come to my mind was a woodchipper and I'm like, you know being Undone spiritually is like being through a spiritual woodchipper.

All your parts are then exposed before a holy God. Amen, and then when you when you're all your parts are exposed before a holy God. You definitely see your need for a Savior. Amen, and so that's what the doctrine of total depravity shows us the law of God.

That's what it shows us and we're moving into hope. The hope that God gives us of this grace and his mercy and we were learning that in through the doctrine of unconditional.

Election.

So.

What is your Just raw personal Definition. I'm sure it's going to be compiled of learning it from multiple places. But what is what is your definition? Claude then we'll go to Dan of unconditional election.

Unconditional election short definition would be God Choosing and calling sinners unto himself not based upon.

Any.

Thing that We have done or that he is aware that we have done but simply because he chooses to set his love on us.

Then what would your definition be?

That that there is nothing in and of ourselves that causes God to choose us for salvation, but On the other hand that God does it for his own good pleasure. Amen, so the can there's there's nothing in and of us that causes God to choose us.

There's no condition Involving us or are in that forces God's hand. He acts sovereign.

Right got a special guest with us tonight.

She's cute, too.

Mrs. Self All right, so here I'm gonna play advocate. I don't like to say devil's advocate. But I'm gonna play advocate because I'm going to pose a question. I'm gonna pose the question from the other side of those who I'm thinking about.

People who are not familiar with the doctrines of grace. When they hear Calvinism, they want to I don't know. Swing a hammer scream.

Yeah.

Some people call it, you know Armenians, but people don't like to use that term for themselves either. But that's that's kind of where they lean in their theology. So I'm coming from that perspective.

So When I hear you guys give the definition of unconditional election, I think to myself I Believe in Salvation by faith Through grace. That it's not of myself it's it's a gift of God. I'm all for that.

I believe that I don't believe that I don't believe in works. I don't have to I don't work for my salvation. Um.

So.

So, how do you. So where am I wrong if I'm on the other side? I don't hold to the doctrines of grace. I don't believe in Election and predestination. I don't believe in unconditional election.

But.

I'm coming from the point of view that I Don't I know I don't work for my salvation. It's it's all God's glory. So so where's the rub? Where's the rub?

How would you guys answer that Dan? I'll defer to you here first. I.

Say the rub is inconsistency. Be honest, okay.

Um.

When you. When you take yourself out of the picture say it wasn't me working. It wasn't me doing wasn't me to save myself. It was all God's doing then. What caused God? To save you. No, either you're left with he chose me.

No, nothing ended up. Myself, which is defined as an unconditional election or. There has to be some reason why you think God decided to save you. There's a disconnect there's a Inconsistency there. It's not just an inconsistency in logic.

It's also an inconsistency with Scripture. Scripture talks in several places about how God chose us to be holy and blameless. About how he's all faith. About how he's uh. He's in the heavens he does whatever he pleases and salvation is of the Lord.

Go you can go on and on.

So I really think that a lot of people don't want to be They either they either haven't been Pressured to think it through all the way or if they have they just have such an aversion to either a term or maybe they met somebody who would jerk or There's some reason other than the logical biblical consistency of it that makes them go.

I can't arrive at that. That conclusion, you know, even if they affirm all of the little pieces along the way They'll come in like now. I don't know. I don't affirm that because Something.

So.

Rob, let me let me get a little bit more context. Yeah, you're not Rob. We know Rob, right? You're the you're the advocate the devil's advocate Rob. An adjective there because just an advocate I mean you got you you gotta be the devil's advocate here.

So He's a Doherty an advocate, yes, so let me ask the question then are. Are you coming from the perspective of having? other than Knowing that Calvinists are the devil. Are you coming from a perspective of Just genuinely not ever having ever heard the difference between reformed theology and Arminianism.

Where are you coming? Where would you be coming from there on. Well from your question perspective?

I think that's a good question. And and I I had both in mind because I think there's both in our community. You've got folks who? Who have been brought up, you know, I believe in salvation by faith through grace.

It's not a it's not a work. I don't work for my salvation. It's a gift, you know, all glory belongs to God.

And.

That's all they know. That's their only perspective. But then you also have folks like you said who that's their perspective but that they've heard rumors about a neighboring church who has a Calvinist pastor and they teach that all the.

We're all robots. Yeah, I've heard that before right? You know, I've heard that before and and it becomes an evil term or. Um, yeah, Becky says not works free will. They believe in free will. They use that term free will.

And from that. So, let me just build upon that just a little bit what you just said so that in that is it really does come down to the importance of a church. From its, you know elders hearing and being taught the difference in the importance of The distinctions in the reform the in reform theology in Armenian theology that's not a and it's not a.

It is in one sense I guess a negative connotation but there always has to be a distinction just like with that. You know that the advocate idea there has to be a a good advocate or a bad advocate, right?

A devil's advocate or a godly advocate. Christ is our advocate, right? So he is perfect pure and holy, but when it comes to the idea of free will It's important that folks are educated on The difference between what is meant by free will.

It's easy to say that right? But when we're when we're talking about that we're talking about Compatibilistic free will. Versus libertarian free will right libertarian free will and I'm teaching this on Sunday nights in there 1689 week before last we really bore down on this and focused on it.

Libertarian free will is man doing what he wants despite God's decree. That's that's the idea behind libertarian free will and the idea behind Compatibilistic free will is that man does what he does according to God's decree, right?

So when folks say that they have free will to do what they want to do. They're saying I'm a law unto myself. I always do what I want to do despite what God wants, which is in effect Idolatry because they're setting themselves up above God and they're saying I'm gonna worship my will my wants my desires above what God wants rather than Recognizing the fact that God alone is sovereign.

Compatibilistic free will says I Understand that according to the scriptures that even in my sin though God is not the author of sin, but even in in the midst of my sin I am still acting according to God's decree in the book of Acts chapter 2.

We have this laid out very plainly very clearly in the in the Apostle Peter's first message at the day of Pentecost. Actually, I don't want to misquote that. I'm gonna read that real quick here what it says, but so in Acts chapter 2 verse 22 through 24 the Apostle Peter States this men of Israel hear these words Jesus of Nazareth a man attested by God to you by miracles wonders and signs.

Which God did through him in your midst as you yourselves also know Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God. You have taken by lawless hands have crucified and it put him to death.

Whom God raised up having loose the pains of death. So, you know the the denial of The sovereignty of God even over the sin of man not again. Let me be clear. God is not the author of sin but God Decrees that man Would sin right and he uses that Jet the Joseph story right you meant it for good.

But God are you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. God is able because he's God to take even the wickedness of men and turn it for his glory and for his honor. I may have gotten off track a little bit here, but I felt I just wanted to make you know, because Dan's wife had mentioned free will right and folks again need to be they need to be educated on those differences.

Now that It'll blow up, you know. The the information will blow up on you, but just grab a hold of it and you know in in stay with it. Bear through it the idea of condition of or the idea of an unconditional Election we've got to look at what is the the opposite of that to understand it, right?

We got a we got to understand the good and we got to understand the bad and again if these Doctrines come from an answer to the remonstrance. Then we must you know set them up side by side so what is the converse what is the opposite of unconditional election?

Right. It's conditional election. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean on got questions org they do a good job here are many is taught that God elects individuals to salvation Based on his foreknowledge of those who by the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in Jesus Christ and persevere in the faith.

So again, it's saying that God is Reactionary to us right if if you know if if I snuck up on you as a kid. Not that I would ever do stuff like this, right? Kick you in the shin. What are you gonna do?

You know, I'm 10 years old. You're 50 years old. What are you gonna do? It doesn't matter that I'm 10 years old if I walk up and kick you in the shin and you don't you don't see it. Come and the first thing you're gonna do is reach out and grab me, right?

You're gonna you're gonna find a belt. You're gonna find a flip-flop. You're gonna find what you can and you're gonna get me but God is not like that. God is not a reactionary. He is not Surprised he is not caught off guard.

All right, I'm gonna hush on that. I'm sorry guys. I'm sorry I could talk all day on that, but I'm not. I'm sorry.

Matt I'm gonna show this one first before I get yours.

Quoting John Piper. Right there. John Piper comes to this portion. He puts his arms out and acts like a pterodactyl. He bout leaves the stage I could quit right now. That's a good one.

But this is a good question. Can you address the idea of some believe that God looks down through the corridors of time? I hope that we can make it through. I Wanted to do a big chunk of Romans Romans 8 and 20 Romans chapter 8 and 9 Wanted to go through that.

I thought it was a good idea. So maybe we'll attempt that and when we get down to in the in the belly of chapter 9 I want to address that question. That's a really really good question.

Amen.

Right. So going to address that a little bit right now. Yeah. Yeah. If you look in Ephesians 1. Ephesians 1 chapter 4 says that he chose us in him before the foundations of the world. And some people say okay was before the foundations of the world.

Chose him and chosen in him before the foundation was okay. So he was before the foundation will look down time and saw it except He didn't. He didn't look down To see who would choose him. He looked down the quarters of time that says in order that we might be holy and blameless before him.

So he didn't look down the quarters of time to look at who would believe. But he looked down to decide who he was going to make holy and blameless. Which is it's a cart and a horse situation. He didn't look down to see.

He looked down and Made it happen. He was. He was a causation not a reaction.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Which which is just you know, that's the thing that folks want to look at God as a Reactionary and not the cause right? He is the self-existent eternal pre-existing first cause.

And I guess the whole the whole discussion of Unconditional or conditional election boils down to when someone makes the decision their decisions are always conditioned upon something. So when we say of the salvation election is Unconditional.

It's not that the choice was not conditioned upon Something. It just wasn't conditioned upon something in us. Conditioned by something that was in God. It was his choice his.

Glory his.

His ways are higher than our ways so it was his. That they caused him to do what he did. Yeah, so it's not that the election is Completely unconditional. It's just unconditional in regards to us and our actions.

You you both are bringing up topics that are I'm trying to bite my tongue because I'm I'm wanting to respond with some of my I felt like would be closing remarks. But you guys are bringing up these wonderful topics and I want to just get them in there.

Maybe bring them up at the end. So Real quickly going back to my original question before we move to Romans. We're gonna start in Romans chapter 8 verse 28. Talking about the rub between those who hold the doctrines of grace and and those who Say I don't believe in works.

I believe in grace through faith. Do you think the rub is going to be between the two? Faith and repentance. Where the those who hold to the doctrines of grace are going to say that those two are a gift they're a gift of God and The other side.

They're not going to say their works either. But I'll add a third one the ability to choose. Which also points us back to last time the doctrine of total depravity. Which we learned that we don't have that ability.

So much is with the positive assertion of what we're saying so much as it is with the the logical negative of What comes from it? Here's what I mean by that. Okay, it's not so much that God would choose Someone to be saved is that he wouldn't choose everyone to be saved.

They they it's a struggle in the mind to think that God would create someone and then that person go to hell. And why would God choose one and not the other? They can't. I don't it's hard for people to wrap their mind around how God could do that and remain good He did but it's hard to wrap the mind around.

It hangs a lot of people up and that's especially the case. It's the same objection only stronger when we get to our To our next point in limited atonement like that. It's the same objection only stronger because limited atonement you're saying that the The purpose or the the The payment for sin what was limited to the people that God was actually saving.

People say what do you mean? He died for the world. I think the post-millennials can answer that better than anyone but They it's it's a tough thing to wrap your mind around Nothing. I think that's where the rub is.

It's more on the negative side of it than it is on the positive. It's less about God that God will choose to save someone and do it and more about well, why not everybody? No, you must think you're special.

You must think you're somebody. Chose you.

In. And one more thing that I would throw in Into the equation and or as far as the rub goes if there is a rub then All rubs. All issues Concerning spiritual matters are answered according to the scripture.

So.

For someone who might be Adverse to the doctrines of grace whether they you know, they don't know if they're reformed or Arminian. They don't know that but they still got an adverse reaction to the doctrines of grace.

The thing that we must do as men of God is point them to the scriptures and to be patient and To let the scripture because the beautiful that's the beautiful thing about the text of scripture. It speaks God's Word speak.

He speaks for himself in the word. And if it's just a matter of getting folks to slow down To read what it says and not to read in to us a G our own ideas Into the text which is I think where you're leading us here to go to the text, right Rob?

And I explained this last weekend at the conference that I was that you know, I was I was one of those people I don't know. I don't know you guys background on this. Love to hear it sometime. But I was one of those people just.

Had never heard any other options. This is just the way it is. Didn't even know the terminology didn't know the titles or labels. This is just the doctrine that I was taught. The non doctrine of elections and so when I when I began to hear that language, I Downloaded and I don't even know what it's called and I may try to find it again.

But I went to the Desiring God website John Piper's ministry printed off the whole Doctrines of grace tool. Thing that he has and I read, you know every single page and I was trying to Disprove, you know, I'm trying to disprove this whole thing.

And it wasn't that book that or his his work there that convinced me. It was one verse and it was the verse that says that. And I guess it may be just how my mind works. But it was the verse that said God will not share his glory with another.

Amen, and I said That includes me. He's not going to share his glory with me. And so, you know going back to faith and repentance and the ability to choose Doctrines of grace says it's a gift and then the other side says well we choose to believe we choose.

We have the ability the freedom to choose repentance of faith so any last thoughts I Think I think RC scroll watching some of his stuff. Talking about what you were talking about Dan he um if I can get it back in my mind.

It's it's not. God is not unjust in doing what he did. And it goes back to and here I am bringing up some of my closing closing thoughts. But it goes back to you know, what called you said and then you said One can't override the other man's man's ability.

Cannot override God's ability. There's there's only one that has freedom and God has God is the only one that has freedom man, and um.

And so.

If you look at that God versus man there's only one sovereign and it's not sovereign choice his sovereign will and You know, I heard I think it was John Piper that talks about going back to Moses when God says I am that I am.

And how that relates to when he was talking about here in Romans which we're going to get to in a second. Where he says I'll have mercy on who I will have mercy. He does what he does because he is who he is.

He's the only one with sovereign free will we can't override it and Sproul was talking about the He's not unjust he in what he does because we we all deserve Amen and so he By giving grace to some is not unjust because we all deserve the those that are still going to hell.

That's what they deserve that's what we deserve that's right. So that's what makes grace grace. Yeah, absolutely. If he if he died for the world then you were saying he fell because the world isn't safe.

I've gotten to the point where I can't pre-read them because I have a notification that's blocking The comments and I can't get rid of it. I'm scared to try and close the whole program.

By the way Dan I'd like to commend your wife for tuning in and watching the episode live and commenting. I Don't know Rob about your wife Amanda mine. You know, she'll she'll catch the episodes, you know, whenever.

That's awesome though that your wife is tuning in Dan.

Yeah, she's great.

Yes, you guys ready to jump into Romans. Romans chapter 8. Stone look would say let's do it. Let's do it. So we're making our way towards in the text Unconditional election. So I'll read a few verses and we'll pause.

And we can make some comments on these verses Romans starting in verse 28 of verse chapter 8 and we know that God causes all things to work together for the good to those who love God to those who are called according to his purpose for those whom he foreknew he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son so that he would be Firstborn among many brethren.

I just I mean just starting with verse.

28 I.

Mean verse 28 is is teaching us the the sovereignty of God. God is the man is what you guys were talking about earlier. He's the first cause. He's the cause of all things and then we get to.

Go ahead. I was just saying a man.

Well, then we get to verse 29 and I Think it'll probably be a good time to talk about Matt's question. That was talking about looking looking down the quarter of time and the lights based on those who he foresees choosing him.

And you guys can give me your comments on on my thoughts here. That's the wording Matt that I hear a lot foresees. And and I think that's what people wish. Because they use this verse and I think there's a is there another one like it in chapter 9.

Or maybe it's just here but um. They try to use these verses to say see. This shows that there's not election because God looks down through the quarters to time Quarters of time and sees who will choose him and then those are the ones he elects.

And they try to use this verse to try to prove that.

But.

It comes across to me as if they want this verse to use the word foresees instead of for new or for no and. The verse doesn't say that. Versus go ahead. Oh you go ahead. If well, this is for no and not for see and there's a difference.

What were you gonna say clock. I was just gonna that's what I was gonna comment on. Actually the that word for no. Cuz that's the that's the that's the big deal. It's a very personal term for new whom he for loved.

Right, because that it became and then that's that's another thing. Just say just another natural Illustration is is this people want to fit we want to feel like we have we have. Or people want to feel like they have the power of choice to choose God for salvation.

But they want to deny God the right to be the the one who chooses. Man wants the right right. We have the right to choose our Brides as men, right? We we choose the bride that we love that we desire. Our bride chooses us because they love us and desire us.

That's a natural illustration but if if man is capable of doing such a thing then why not is. Consider that God because he's God ultimately has the right to choose who he wants to set his love upon.

When you if you think about the word for no you've got the word what to know is Gnosko and then I think for no is pro Gnosko something like that and If you think about that word in biblical terms or the biblical idea You come up with the definition or understanding that of a relationship.

To know someone is to have a relationship with them. It's not just to foresee something in the future and have a knowledge about it, but it's to have a Knowing as in a relationship with them. So God God foreknew or had a relationship beforehand with us.

The verse comes to mind that says.

He.

He chose us before the world began. Mm-hmm, and so.

Dan was talking about earlier. Yeah.

Listening to John Piper to he makes the distinction. I think it's a good distinction. Sometimes we mix election and predestination or not mix them but try to. Make them mean the same thing, but but they don't.

They mean two separate things so for for no here is more of the election word and then Predestination is the predetermined for something a predetermination for something.

For.

To be conformed to the image of a son like it says here. Amen. Dan you just jump in here anytime that you want to brother. No, no you preaching. Go on.

I.

Do you do you want to take the next few verses. I'll hand them off to you and the baton who's you.

Okay.

Sure, that would be you.

And these whom he Predestined they'll be the ones that were conformed to be conformed to the image of a son up there and that verse up there 29 there we go I'll be conformed the image of a son. And these whom he predestined he also called so he had people who he he Predestined to be conformed to the image of a son the people that he knew ahead of time.

He took those people That he was going to conform the image of his honey called them. Those whom he called to himself justified those whom he justified He glorified. So it talks about him knowing the people ahead of time Predestining a path where they will be conformed the image of the Sun by calling them Justifying them and glorifying them.

Not by having us do anything but by all those actions being done upon us. Beautiful. Because He had a plan he worked his plan and his plan was just done.

Beautiful.

And so what are we gonna say about these things? If God is for us Who can be against us or who is against us? God was creating everything. He made the world to work in a certain way in that world. We're going to work in the way that he saw fit.

Where is it I Got it here. Yeah in the Heidelberg catechism in the first question. So what is my only comfort in life and death? It goes on talking about the fact that God is for us. Jesus is precious blood and him delivering me from the power of the devil and he preserves me that the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head.

Yeah that all things must be subservient to my salvation. And therefore by his Holy Spirit He also assures me of eternal life and make me sincerely willing and ready henceforth to live on him. So the the choice is not made by us and then these things follow suit.

The choice was made by God Because he called us because he justified us. We are then willing Sincerely willingly brought along for the ride. So did I actually make a choice to be saved? Absolutely, but why did I make that choice to be saved?

God had called me from the foundations of the world to be conformed the image of his son.

Yeah, amen made willing. That's that's the term right there. It's fairly made willing. Amen.

Yeah, I don't even know where I was in Romans.

31 but just to make a brief comment here listen listen to the John Piper again. He he makes the comment to Confirm or to strengthen argument for foreknowledge up here. The these who he called. That that calling.

We're getting further down the list again. It's effectual it does something. Those that he calls they believe. Those there's not some that he calls that don't believe. Those he calls believes and are justified.

So, you know that that strengthens the argument up here for you this beforehand relationship. Not just seeing who will choose him.

Amen and that's another one of those examples just real quick. What you just said there if a person just takes the time and looks through this the Bible reads through the Bible. Then you'll see that I I've still not I I am subject to correction.

But I've still not found anywhere in the text of Scripture where God calls someone and they Deny him. It's not there as far as I can tell. It's not there, right? But like we have the example some will say well, what about the rich young ruler who came to Jesus there in the Gospels?

Well, Jesus didn't call him. He came on his own. In what was the result? He went away sorrowful for he had great positions, right? He loved the world more than he loved the Lord. But when when whom the Lord calls it's it's it's written in the sense that it is Done it is already accomplished.

And this is a good place to plug in Acts 13 48 Which is telling us the same thing all who were appointed for eternal life. All who were appointed for eternal life to leave. We're going to run out of time so I'm gonna skip down and if there's brothers if there's anything in Romans 8 or 9 that you think that we should cover.

You pull me back to it, but I'm gonna I'm gonna skip down. Because there's there's I think at least two other verses that I'd like for you guys to look at with me. But I think this is important to Going down to Romans chapter 9.