Pastors' Panel Podcast- Unconditional Election

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Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the Pastors Panel Podcast. We are thankful that you are with us tonight.

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We're thankful to be back. I'm thankful to be with these guys. We're just so blessed, too blessed to be stressed.

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Isn't that right? I'm really thankful for these guys. Thankful for you watching.

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We'd like for you to share. We'd like for you to participate, be with us, ask questions.

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Say hello, let us know that you're watching, and let's have a good time together discussing

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God, his character, his nature, and his word, and all that he wants us to know.

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I'm with Dan and Claude, and guys, one of the reasons I'm thankful for you guys is because when we do these things,

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I know that when I'm hosting, or when Claude's hosting as the host, we kind of moderate it, but I like to ask you guys questions, and Jonathan as well, if he's able to join us.

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You guys have been communicating with people for a while. You talk to people on a regular basis, and I'm convinced that when

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I hear you guys speak, you hold the same conviction that I do. I see or hear from your heart that you stand on truth.

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But you want to stand on truth in love in your presentation, and I hear that from your hearts and your conversation, and that's the message that I want to be proclaiming through this video.

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So when I ask you questions, I'm thinking about the people who might be listening, and I know that when

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I hear Claude and Dan and Jonathan answer, I know I'm hearing a pastoral answer, and I'm thankful for that.

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Praise the Lord. And I know that folks will be edified by your answers, and so with that being said,

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I did want to say this too. I feel like we're equal here, and if you guys want to ask questions, if you want to jump in somewhere, always feel free to do that.

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So there's a lot of freedom here. So how you guys been doing? Dan, so how's your prep going for your storm?

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Man, I don't know. I'm trying something new and different. I actually went and laid out big blue tarps down the driveway.

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I'm hoping I can just grab on to one end of it and pull, but I'm really not sure how it's gonna do.

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I'm sure I'm not gonna be able to pull the whole foot of snow over the driveway, but I'm thinking maybe if I can get it two, three, four inches, and then lay it back down, and then maybe get it again before I leave,

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I might be able to take care of it that way. But then again, it may just completely freeze to the driveway.

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I may be in trouble, so I really don't know. And Dan's preparing to preach this

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Sunday, so we want to be in prayer for him, and hopefully he'll get that posted, or I can post it when he shares it to the page.

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I look forward to that. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So tonight, Claude, well,

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I don't want to skip over you, brother. You doing okay? Oh, yeah, I'm good. I'm good.

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I'm rolling right along. Well, tonight we're discussing the doctrine of an unconditional election, and I'm glad we're doing that because our last discussion was on total depravity, and that discussion will leave you totally hopeless.

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So we're moving forward right along with God's gospel, and the next part is unconditional election, which brings the hope back, leaving us with the law of God.

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That's one of its intentions, is to leave us hopeless, to see our true state, to see our true selves.

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I made this video this past week. Tell me what you guys think. I was thinking about, and I was actually listening to a sermon.

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They were talking about Isaiah, where he talks about being a man of unclean lips and being among a people of unclean lips, and he says, woe is me.

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I am undone, and the preacher was talking about undone, meaning unraveled, completely unraveled, and the picture that come to my mind was a wood chipper, and I'm like, you know, being undone spiritually is like being through a spiritual wood chipper.

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All your parts are then exposed before a holy God, and then when all your parts are exposed before a holy

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God, you definitely see your need for a savior. Amen. And so that's what the doctrine of total depravity shows us, the law of God, that's what it shows us, and we're moving into hope, the hope that God gives us of his grace and his mercy, and we're learning that through the doctrine of unconditional election.

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So what is your just raw, personal definition

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I'm sure it's gonna be compiled of learning it from multiple places, but what is your definition,

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Claude, then we'll go to Dan, of unconditional election? Unconditional election, short definition would be

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God choosing and calling sinners unto himself not based upon any thing that we have done or that he is aware that we have done, but simply because he chooses to set his love on us.

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Dan, what would your definition be? That there is nothing in and of ourselves that causes

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God to choose us for salvation, but on the other hand, that God does it for his own good pleasure.

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Amen. So there's nothing in and of us that causes God to choose us, there's no condition involving us or our end that forces

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God's hand, he acts sovereignly. Got a special guest with us tonight.

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She's cute too. Mrs. Self. All right, so here

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I'm gonna play advocate. I don't like to say devil's advocate, but I'm gonna play advocate because I'm going to pose a question.

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I'm gonna pose the question from the other side of those who, I'm thinking about people who are not familiar with the doctrines of grace.

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When they hear Calvinism, they want to, I don't know, swing a hammer, scream.

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Some people call it, you know, Armenians, but people don't like to use that term for themselves either, but that's kind of where they lean in their theology.

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So I'm coming from that perspective. So when I hear you guys give the definition of unconditional election,

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I think to myself, I believe in salvation by faith through grace, that it's not of myself, it's a gift of God.

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I'm all for that, I believe that. I don't believe in works, I don't work for my salvation.

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So how do you, so where am

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I wrong? If I'm on the other side, I don't hold to the doctrines of grace, I don't believe in election and predestination,

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I don't believe in unconditional election, but I'm coming from the point of view that I don't,

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I know I don't work for my salvation, it's all God's glory. So where's the rub?

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Where's the rub? How would you guys answer that? Dan, I'll defer to you here first.

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Oh, thank you. I'd say the rub is inconsistency, to be honest.

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Okay. When you take yourself out of the picture, say it wasn't me working, it wasn't me doing, wasn't me to save myself, it was all

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God's doing, then what caused God to save you?

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Now, either you're left with, He chose me, nothing ended up myself, which is defined as an unconditional election, or there has to be some reason why you think

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God decided to save you. There's a disconnect, there's an inconsistency there.

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It's not just an inconsistency in logic, it's also an inconsistency with scripture. Scripture talks in several places about how

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God chose us to be holy and blameless, about how He's the author and minister of our faith, about how

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He's in the heavens, He does whatever He pleases, salvation is up to the

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Lord. You can go on and on. So I really think that a lot of people don't want to be, they either haven't been pressured to think it through all the way, or if they have, they just have such an aversion to either a term, or maybe they met somebody who was jerk, or there's some reason other than the logical biblical consistency of it that makes them go, ah,

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I can't arrive at that conclusion. Now, even if they affirm all of the little pieces along the way, they'll come to the end like, nah,

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I don't affirm that because something, I don't know.

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So, Rob, let me get a little bit more context. Yeah. You're not

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Rob, as we know, Rob, right? You're the advocate, the devil's advocate,

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Rob. And you gotta put an adjective there because just an advocate, I mean, you gotta be the devil's advocate here, so.

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The Doherty, the Dohertyian advocate. Yes, so let me ask the question then.

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Are you coming from the perspective of having, other than knowing that Calvinists are the devil, are you coming from a perspective of just genuinely not ever having ever heard the difference between reformed theology and Arminianism?

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Where would you be coming from there from your question perspective? I think that's a good question.

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And I had both in mind because I think there's both in our community. You've got folks who have been brought up.

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I believe in salvation by faith through grace. It's not a work. I don't work for my salvation, it's a gift.

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All glory belongs to God. And that's all they know.

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That's their only perspective. But then you also have folks, like you said, who that's their perspective, but they've heard rumors about a neighboring church who has a

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Calvinist pastor and they teach that we're all robots.

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I've heard that before. Right. I've heard that before. And it becomes an evil term or, yeah,

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Becky says, not works, free will. They believe in free will. They use that term, free will.

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And from that, so let me just build upon that just a little bit, what you just said.

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So that is, it really does come down to the importance of a church from its elders hearing and being taught the difference and the importance of the distinctions in Reformed theology and Arminian theology.

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That's not a, it's not a, it is in one sense, I guess, a negative connotation, but there always has to be a distinction, just like with the advocate idea.

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There has to be a good advocate or a bad advocate, right? A devil's advocate or a godly advocate.

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Christ is our advocate, right? So he is perfect, pure, and holy. But when it comes to the idea of free will, it's important that folks are educated on the difference between what is meant by free will.

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It's easy to say that, right? But when we're talking about that, we're talking about compatibilistic free will versus libertarian free will, right?

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Libertarian free will, and I'm teaching this on Sunday nights in our 1689. Week before last, we really bore down on this and focused on it.

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Libertarian free will is man doing what he wants despite God's decree.

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That's the idea behind libertarian free will. And the idea behind compatibilistic free will is that man does what he does according to God's decree, right?

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So when folks say that they have free will to do what they want to do, they're saying,

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I'm a law unto myself. I always do what I want to do despite what God wants, which is, in effect, idolatry because they're setting themselves up above God.

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And they're saying, I'm gonna worship my will, my wants, my desires above what God wants rather than recognizing the fact that God alone is sovereign.

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Compatibilistic free will says, I understand that according to the scriptures that even in my sin, though God is not the author of sin, but even in the midst of my sin,

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I'm still acting according to God's decree. In the book of Acts chapter two, we have this laid out very plainly, very clearly in the

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Apostle Peter's first message at the day of Pentecost. Actually, I don't wanna misquote that.

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I'll read that real quick here, what it says. So in Acts chapter two, verse 22 through 24, the

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Apostle Peter states this, men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, the man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which

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God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know, him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and have put him to death, whom

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God raised up, having loosed the pains of death. So, you know, the denial of the sovereignty of God even over the sin of man, not again, let me be clear.

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God is not the author of sin, but God decrees that man would sin, right?

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And he uses that, the Joseph story, right? You meant it for good, but God, or you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

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God is able, because he's God, to take even the wickedness of men and turn it for his glory and for his honor.

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I may have gotten off track a little bit here, but I just wanted to make, you know, because Dan's wife had mentioned free will, right?

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And folks, again, need to be, they need to be educated on those differences. Now, that, it'll blow up, you know, the information will blow up on you, but just grab a hold of it and, you know, and stay with it, bear through it.

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The idea of condition, or the idea of an unconditional election, we've got to look at what is the opposite of that to understand it, right?

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We gotta understand the good and we gotta understand the bad. And again, if these doctrines come from an answer to the remonstrance, then we must, you know, set them up side by side.

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So what is the converse? What is the opposite of unconditional election, right?

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It's conditional election. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, on gotquestions .org,

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they do a good job here. Arminius taught that God elects individuals to salvation based on his foreknowledge of those who by the grace of the

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Holy Spirit believe in Jesus Christ and persevere in the faith. So again, it's saying that God is reactionary to us, right?

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If, you know, if I snuck up on you as a kid, not that I would ever do stuff like this, right?

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Kicked you in the shin, what are you gonna do? You know, I'm 10 years old, you're 50 years old.

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What are you gonna do? It doesn't matter that I'm 10 years old. If I walk up and kick you in the shin and you don't see it coming, the first thing you're gonna do is reach out and grab me, right?

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You're gonna find a belt, you're gonna find a flip -flop, you're gonna find what you can, and you're gonna get me.

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But God is not like that. God is not a reactionary. He is not surprised.

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He is not caught off guard. All right, I'm gonna hush on that. I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry, I could talk all day on that, but I'm not.

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I'm sorry. No, you're good. Matt, I'm gonna show this one first before I get yours.

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Minute, minute, minute. Not turn it to good, but minute, amen. Amen. He is quoting

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John Piper right there. And John Piper comes to this portion, he puts his arms out and acts like a pterodactyl, and he about leaves the stage.

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He's like, I could quit right now, I wanna quit. Good, go look it up. That's a good one. Matt, this is a good question.

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Can you address the idea of some believe that God looks down through the corridors of time? I hope that we can make it through.

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I wanted to do a big chunk of Romans, Romans 8 and 29. Romans chapter eight and nine.

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I wanted to go through that. I thought it was a good idea, so maybe we'll attempt that.

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And when we get down to in the belly of chapter nine, I want to address that question.

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That's a really, really good question. Amen. Right. So going -

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Can I address that a little bit right now? Yeah, yeah. And then I'll come back. I won't take the whole rest of the time.

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Take your time. If you look in Ephesians one, Ephesians one, chapter four, says that he chose us in him before the foundations of the world.

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And some people say, okay, well, it was before the foundations of the world. And my wife chose us in him before the foundations of the world.

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Okay, so he was before the foundations of the world, looked down time and saw it, except he didn't look down to see who would choose him.

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He looked down the corridors of time and it says, in order that we might be holy and blameless before him.

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Mm -hmm. So he didn't look down the quarters of time to look at who would believe, but he looked down to decide who he was going to make holy and blameless, which is, it's a cart and a horse situation.

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He didn't look down to see, he looked down and made it happen.

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He was a causation, not a reaction. Right, exactly, exactly.

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Which is just, you know, that's the thing, that folks want to look at God as a reactionary and not the cause.

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Right. He is the self -existent, eternal, pre -existing first cause.

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Mm -hmm. And I guess the whole discussion of the unconditional or conditional election boils down to, when someone makes a decision, their decisions are always conditioned upon some thing.

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So when we say that salvation, election, is unconditional, it's not that the choice was not conditioned upon some thing, it just wasn't conditioned upon something in us.

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Right. It was conditioned by something that was in God. It was his choice, his glory, his ways are higher than our ways.

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So it was his something that caused him to do what he did. So it's not that the election is completely unconditional, it's just unconditional in regards to us and our actions.

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You both are bringing up topics that are, I'm trying to bite my tongue because I'm wanting to respond with some of my,

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I felt like would be closing remarks, but you guys are bringing up these wonderful topics and I wanna just get them in there.

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And I'll maybe bring them up at the end. So real quickly, going back to my original question before we move to Romans, we're gonna start in Romans chapter eight, verse 28.

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Talking about the rub between those who hold the doctrines of grace and those who say,

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I don't believe in works, I believe in grace through faith. Do you think the rub is gonna be between the two, faith and repentance?

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Where those who hold to the doctrines of grace are gonna say that those two are a gift.

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They're a gift of God. And the other side, they're not gonna say they're works either, but I'll add a third one, the ability to choose, which also points us back to last time, the doctrine of total depravity, which we learned that we don't have that ability.

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I don't know if the rub so much is with the positive assertion of what we're saying so much as it is with the logical negative of what comes from it.

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Here's what I mean by that. It's not so much that God would choose someone to be saved, it's that he wouldn't choose everyone to be saved.

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It's a struggle in the mind to think that God would create someone and then that person go to hell.

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And why would God choose one and not the other? It's hard for people to wrap their mind around how

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God could do that and remain good. He did, but it's hard to wrap the mind around.

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But it hangs a lot of people up and that's especially the case. It's the same objection only stronger when we get to our next point in limited atonement.

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Like that, I had to spell it out, I'm sorry. I have to do that too, man. It's the same objection only stronger because in limited atonement, you're saying that the purpose or the payment for sin was limited to the people that God was actually saving.

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People say, what do you mean? He died for the world. I think that post -millennials can answer that better than anyone, but it's a tough thing to wrap your mind around.

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I think that's where the rub is. It's more on the negative side of it than it is on the positive.

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It's less about God, that God will choose to save someone and do it and more about, well, why not everybody?

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No, you must think you're special. You must think you're somebody. You think God chose you. And one more thing that I would throw into the equation as far as the rub goes, if there is a rub, then all rubs, all issues concerning spiritual matters are answered according to the scripture.

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So for someone who might be adverse to the doctrines of grace, whether they don't know if they're

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Reformed or Arminian, they don't know that, but they still got an adverse reaction to the doctrines of grace.

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The thing that we must do as men of God is point them to the scriptures and to be patient and to let the scripture, because the beautiful, that's the beautiful thing about the text of scripture.

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It speaks, God's word speak, he speaks for himself in the word. And if it's just a matter of getting folks to slow down, to read what it says and not to read in, to ossigy our own ideas into the text, which is

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I think where you're leading us here to go to the text, right, Rob? Absolutely, absolutely.

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And I explained this last weekend at the conference that I was at,

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I was one of those people, I don't know you guys' background on this, love to hear it sometime, but I was one of those people just had never heard any other options.

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This is just the way it is. Didn't even know the terminology, didn't know the titles or labels. This is just the doctrine that I was taught, the non -doctrine of elections.

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And so when I began to hear that language, I downloaded and I don't even know what it's called.

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And I may try to find it again, but I went to the Desiring God website, John Piper's ministry, printed off the whole doctrines of grace tool thing that he has.

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And I read every single page and I was trying to disprove, I was trying to disprove this whole thing.

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And it wasn't that book or his work there that convinced me, it was one verse.

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And it was the verse that says that, and I guess it may be just how my mind works, but it was the verse that said,

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God will not share his glory with another. Amen. And I said, that includes me.

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He's not gonna share his glory with me. And so, going back to faith and repentance and the ability to choose doctrines of grace says, it's a gift.

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And then the other side says, well, we choose to believe, we choose, we have the ability, the freedom to choose repentance of faith.

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So any last thoughts? I think R .C.

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Sproul, watching some of his stuff, talking about what you were talking about,

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Dan, if I can get it back in my mind, God is not unjust in doing what he did.

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Amen. And it goes back to, and here I am bringing up some of my closing thoughts, but it goes back to what

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Claude used to say, and Dan, you said, one can't override the other.

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Man's ability cannot override God's ability. There's only one that has freedom.

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And God is the only one that has freedom. Amen. And so, if you look at that,

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God versus man, there's only one sovereign, and it's

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God's sovereign choice, his sovereign will. And I heard,

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I think it was John Piper that talks about going back to Moses, when God says, I am that I am, and how that relates to when he was talking about here in Romans, which we're gonna get to in a second, where he says,

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I'll have mercy on who I will have mercy. I will who I will. He does what he does because he is who he is.

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He's the only one with sovereign free will, sovereign choice, and we can't override it.

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And Sproul was talking about the, he's not unjust in what he does because we all deserve hell.

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Amen. And so, he, by giving grace to some is not unjust because we all deserve, those that are still going to hell, that's what they deserve.

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That's what we deserve. That's right. That's what makes grace, grace.

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Yeah, absolutely. If he died for the world, then you were saying he fell because the world isn't safe.

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One more. I think I worded that wrong. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

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Becky, I've gotten to the point where I can't pre -read them because I have a notification that's blocking the comments and I can't get rid of it.

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I'm scared to try and close the whole program. By the way,

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Dan, I'd like to commend your wife for tuning in and watching the episode live and commenting.

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I don't know, Rob, about your wife. She'll catch the episodes whenever.

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That's awesome, though, that your wife is tuning in, Dan. Yeah, she's great.

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Well, I know I appreciate Becky as well. Yeah, are you guys ready to jump into Romans?

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Romans chapter eight? Stone Luke would say, let's do it. Let's do it.

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So we're making our way towards, in the text, unconditional election.

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So I'll read a few verses and we'll pause and we can make some comments on these verses.

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Romans, starting in verse 28 of chapter eight. And we know that God causes all things to work together for the good to those who love

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God, to those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son so that he would be firstborn among many brethren.

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I mean, just starting with verse 28. I mean, verse 28 is teaching us the sovereignty of God.

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God is what you guys were talking about earlier. He's the first cause. He's the cause of all things.

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And then we get to, go ahead. I was just saying, amen. Amen. Well, then we get to verse 29.

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And I think it'd probably be a good time to talk about Matt's question. Matt was talking about looking down the corridor of time and elects based on those who he foresees choosing him.

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And you guys can give me your comments on my thoughts here. That's the wording,

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Matt, that I hear a lot, foresees. And I think that's what people wish because they use this verse.

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And I think there's a, is there another one like it in chapter nine? Or maybe it's just here.

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But they try to use these verses to say, see, this shows that there's not election because God looks down through the corridors of time and sees who will choose him.

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And then those are the ones he elects. And they try to use this verse to try to prove that.

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But it comes across to me as if they want this verse to use the word foresees instead of for new or for no.

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And the verse doesn't say that. The verse says, go ahead. Oh, you go ahead. It says for no and not foresee.

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And there's a difference. What were you gonna say, Claude? I was just gonna, that's what

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I was gonna comment on, actually, that word for no, because that's the big deal.

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It's a very personal term, for new, whom he foreloved, right?

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Because that, and then that's another thing, just another natural illustration is this.

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People want to feel, we want to feel like we have, we have, or people want to feel like they have the power of choice to choose

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God for salvation. But they want to deny God the right to be the one who chooses.

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Man wants the right, right? We have the right to choose our brides as men, right?

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We choose the bride that we love, that we desire. Our bride chooses us because they love us and desire us.

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That's a natural illustration. But if man is capable of doing such a thing, then why not consider that God, because he's

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God, ultimately has the right to choose who he wants to set his love upon?

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Well, if you think about the word for no, you've got the word, no is gnosco, and then

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I think for no is prognosco, something like that.

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And if you think about that word in biblical terms or the biblical idea, you come up with the definition or understanding that of a relationship, that to know someone is to have a relationship with them.

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It's not just to foresee something in the future and have a knowledge about it, but it's to have a knowing as in a relationship with them.

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So God foreknew or had a relationship beforehand with us.

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The verse comes to mind that says, he chose us before the world began.

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Mm -hmm. And so that's the relationship I mean. That's what Dan was talking about earlier.

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Yeah, yep, absolutely. Listening to John Piper too, he makes the distinction, and I think it's a good distinction.

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Sometimes we mix election and predestination, or not mix them, but try to make them mean the same thing, but they don't, they mean two separate things.

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So foreknow here is more of the election word, and then predestination is the predetermined for something, a predetermination for something, to be conformed to the image of a son, like it says here.

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Amen. Dan, you just jump in here anytime that you want to, brother.

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No, man, you preach and go on with it. Yeah. Do you want to take the next few verses?

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I'll hand them off to you, hand the baton. Who's you? Dan, you.

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Oh, okay, yeah, where are we at? Verse 30. In our picture, that would be you.

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In this guy, all right. And these whom he predestined, they'll be the ones that were conformed, to be conformed to the image of a son up there, and that verse up there, 29, there we go.

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They'll be conformed to the image of a son. And these whom he predestined, he also called.

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So he had people who he predestined to be conformed to the image of a son, the people that he knew ahead of time.

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He took those people that he was going to conform to the image of a son, he called them.

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Those whom he called to himself, he justified. Those whom he justified, he glorified.

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So it talks about him knowing the people ahead of time, predestining a path where they will be conformed to the image of a son by calling them, justifying them, and glorifying them.

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Not by having us do anything, but by all those actions being done upon us.

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It's just beautiful because he had a plan, he worked his plan, and his plan was just done.

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Beautiful. And so what are we gonna say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

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Or who is against us? Is there anybody? Because before there was an earth for us to live on, before there was a heaven, no, when

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God was creating everything, he made the world to work in a certain way, and that world was gonna work in the way that he saw fit.

40:04

Where is it? I got it here somewhere.

40:14

Yeah. In the

40:20

Heidelberg Catechism, the first question says, what is my only comfort in life and death? And it goes on talking about Jesus's precious blood and him delivering me from the power of the devil, and he preserves me that the will of my heavenly father, not a hair can fall from my head, yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation.

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And therefore by his Holy Spirit, he also assures me of eternal life and make me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth to live unto him.

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So the choice is not made by us and then these things follow suit.

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The choice was made by God and because he called us, because he justified us, we are then sincerely willingly brought along for the ride.

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So did I actually make a choice to be saved? Absolutely, but why did I make that choice to be saved?

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Right. God had called me from the foundations of the world to be conformed to the image of his son.

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Amen, made willing, that's the term right there, amen. Sincerely made willing.

41:28

Amen. Yeah, I don't even know where I was in Romans. 31.

41:39

Well, just to make a brief comment here, listening to John Piper again, he makes the comment to confirm or to strengthen argument for foreknowledge up here.

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These who he called, that calling, we're getting further down the list again, it's effectual, it does something.

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Those that he calls, they believe. There's not some that he calls that don't believe, those he calls believes and are justified.

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So that strengthens the argument up here for this beforehand relationship, not just seeing who will choose him.

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Amen, and that's another one of those examples, just real quick, what you just said there, if a person just takes the time and looks through the

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Bible, reads through the Bible, then you'll see that. I am subject to correction, but I've still not found anywhere in the text of scripture where God calls someone and they deny him.

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It's not there, as far as I can tell. It's not there, right?

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But like we have the example, some will say, well, what about the rich young ruler who came to Jesus there in the

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Gospels? Well, Jesus didn't call him. He came on his own, and what was the result?

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He went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions, right? He loved the world more than he loved the

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Lord. But whom the Lord calls, it's written in the sense that it is done, it is already accomplished.

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That's right, that's right. And this is a good place to plug in Acts 13, 48, which is telling us the same thing.

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All who were appointed for eternal life, believe. All who were appointed for eternal life, believe.

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We're going to run out of time, so I'm gonna skip down.

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And if there's brothers, if there's anything in Romans 8 or 9 that you think that we should cover, you pull me back to it.

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But I'm gonna skip down, because there's, I think, at least two other verses that I'd like for you guys to look at with me.

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But I think this is important, too. Going down to Romans 9, either one of you, if you want to start in verse 6.

44:47

Dan, you want to tackle those again? Yeah, I got you. Okay. But it is not as though the word of God has failed, for they are not all

44:58

Israel who are descended from Israel. So, I don't know where you're going with this, but let me guess.

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I've heard a lot of people say that this whole chapter is about the corporate election of Israel and not about individuals.

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This right here kind of like destroys it. The proper part here, that's the way of putting it.

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He's saying, in the first few verses leading up to this, he says, so I'm burdened, my people are dying, my people are lost, they don't know

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Christ. I wish I could give up my place in heaven in order to see them saved, because they've been given adoption and glory and covenants and the law and worship and promises.

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They had all this stuff for them. It was right there, it was in their grasp, it was at their fingertips, and yet it is not as though the word of God has failed.

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Did the covenant and promises of God fail? This is the second time in Romans that he said this. He also put it back in Romans three.

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He says, does that mean that the word of God has failed? It's like, no, let God be true, but every man a liar.

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And here it says, for they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel. In other words, it's not the physical descendants of Israel who are in view here.

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He is saving those who have a like faith with Abraham.

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Look at that now in verse seven, it says, for nor are they all children because they're

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Abraham's descendants, but through Isaac, your descendants will be named. That is, not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

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And that promise is a promise of salvation by grace through faith. But we see that because this is the same argument going over again.

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He already went over in Romans four. And he said that the heirs of Abraham are those who have faith like Abraham.

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It's not his physical descendants. It's those who have faith like Abraham who are those who are considered

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Israel here. So when he moves on, he starts talking about the individuals that were distinguished throughout time.

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He goes to Jacob and Esau. Jacob was chosen, but Esau was not. Why? It says because, well, actually it's right there on the screen.

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He said, Jacob was chosen. Why? Not because he had done anything good or bad, but because of God's choice of elections.

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That way it would stand. It would be the main thing. Amen. He called Jacob. And it says that he loved

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Jacob and he hated Esau. He chose

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Jacob for salvation. And he allowed Esau to remain under his wrath.

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Why? Not because of anything good or bad they had done, but so that the purpose of God's choice would stand or his purpose according to election would stand depending on which version you're looking at.

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Amen. Now you're preaching. Amen. He said, amen.

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All right. And then verse 14 is the answer to our question or Paul addresses our question.

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Right, right. Because a lot of people will, I think that's the rub right there.

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Is what do you mean? What do you mean God chose this one to be saved and this one not?

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Is God being unjust? He said, no. Never.

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In fact, he goes on and says it again. He goes through and he explains it in verse 16.

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It's not on man who wills or man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

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Then it goes on a little bit. And then verse nine says, well, why does he still find fault? He asked the question again, because this is an important one.

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If you're thinking along with the objector, at least you're in the right ballpark to be set straight by Paul.

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And he says, who will resist his will? Who, how does he still find fault?

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And he says, who are you to answer back to God? And it really kind of puts stuff in perspective, especially when you think back to what he says, what

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God has recorded for us in Proverbs 1, 7. It says, the fear of the

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Lord is the beginning of wisdom. People who will answer, who have the chutzpah to stand up and look at God and say, how dare you?

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Whoa, guy. Let's remember the fear of the

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Lord. And fear in Hebrew is this fancy term for being afraid. That's all it means, it's fear.

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It doesn't mean respect, it means fear. You should know what you're getting involved with.

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And what you're involved with is God and God's world. God and God's world, you should be afraid because of who he is and how just he is and how wicked we are.

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I love Narnia. Narnia, the children, I believe, are talking with Mr.

50:43

Bieber. And they're talking about Aslan. And they're looking and the children ask a question.

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They say, is he safe? Because they've been seeing all sorts of cool stuff.

50:55

Like, is he safe? Talking about the line. He goes, oh no, he's not safe, but he is good.

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Yeah. And I think that's how we need to view God. And so when we see here, who are you to answer back to God?

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We need to remember, he's not safe. We should fear him, but he is good.

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Because this stuff about election, it's meant to,

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I believe it's meant to cause us to think about these things and to remember, well, why some and not others?

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So you hear what's happening here. It's a call for people to come to Christ.

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He is telling you people, he is working out salvation. And you now are standing here, hearing of the salvation of God.

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What will you do? And that's a beautiful thing.

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Because if you come to Christ, you know that he has called you to himself. And so I heard somebody say, what do

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I do if I don't have salvation, if I don't know Christ, but I want to?

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And you tell me election's true. What do I do if I don't know if I'm elect? I'm gonna just sit there at the feet of Jesus and stare up at the cross and look at him and see what he's done and just don't leave.

52:20

Amen. Just don't leave. I mean, and really that's what salvation boils down to in the

52:29

Christian life. Sitting at the foot of the cross for the rest of your life, not leaving. Because whenever we do try to get up and walk away, we usually end up screwing up a bunch.

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Amen. You have to call back and remember. Amen. It is Christ who is my righteousness.

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It's him, it's his blood that I'm sitting in that is going to save me because I should be the one up on that cross.

52:52

That's right. Amen. I don't know what that has to do with Romans. I kind of went off on a tangent, but. That was fantastic.

53:00

That was so helpful. So before we run out of time, I want us to look at two opposing verses people use as opposition verses.

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I was about to say. What? I was about to say, I don't think there are two opposing verses.

53:19

Verses that people use to oppose this doctrine. There we go. So if y 'all want to turn to the first one while I pull up these comments, 1

53:26

Timothy 2 .4. 1 Timothy 2 .4. While you're pulling up that comment, in a panel one time, somebody brought up a question, said, if God is good and R .C.

53:41

Sproul stopped him, leaned over to him, whispered something, the guy went back to ask the question, said, since God is good, anyway.

53:54

Matt, Matt says, everyone receives justice or mercy. Nobody receives injustice. Yup, yup.

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Amen, Matt. That's the point that R .C. was making in that video that I was watching. That is, he's not unjust and nobody is receiving injustice.

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They, we, you either get what you deserve or you get grace, one or the other. Amen. Matt says, those he foreknew, not what he foresee.

54:20

Yup, that's right. I heard the following quote before.

54:26

I can't remember who said it. If you have a problem with a choosing God, your problem doesn't start in Romans.

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Your problem starts in Genesis. Amen. Oh, one day we're going to get brother

54:40

Matt in here with us. People can't stand the hatred of Esau. Can the clay tell the potter what's up with that?

54:48

That's true. That's right. Don't worry about that last one. Dude. Dude.

55:01

Hey, that needs to be up there. She's, oh goodness. Hey, let me say this. If you can't say amen, you ought to say ouch.

55:11

Wait a second. Wait a second, Becky. You're, you are preaching yourself right there.

55:20

That was good. I'm glad you're my co -host tonight.

55:28

We needed that. All right. So we got through the comments.

55:34

Let's go to, let me type it in here for everybody to see. Oh, wrong screen.

55:40

There we go. First Timothy two.

55:52

All right. Who desires all men to be saved? Who being God. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our savior.

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Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

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So in your pastoral conversation with a parishioner or somebody that you're talking to, counseling with, that brings up this objection, how would you answer this, guys?

56:25

Because they're coming from the point of view, this is a verse that's saying that God doesn't want,

56:30

God wants all men to be saved. So it kind of goes against unconditional election that he chooses some and not others.

56:40

Can you scroll up just a little bit? Yes, sir. All right. Tell me when. That's good right there.

56:48

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers and petitions and thanksgiving be made on behalf of all men.

56:59

So he's telling you, I want you to pray for all men. For who?

57:05

For kings, those in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

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This is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our savior. Go back up, I ain't done yet. So you see up there in verse one, it says, pray for all men.

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And if you were to circle that, you can also go down there to verse four and circle all men.

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Now what's in between there? What's in between there is a description of what all men is.

57:45

He's telling these people, you need to pray for your kings because he doesn't just want the guy down here to have a salvation.

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Your kings or rulers can be saved too. He's not talking about each individual person.

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He's talking about all sorts of people, for kings and slaves and masters and husbands and wives and little boys and little girls and whoever else.

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He's talking about people because - Amen to him. Which says on behalf of all men, all men is then defined as a category for people.

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It's this type and that type and the other type. So he desires all types of people to be saved.

58:30

Now, let me say this. If you're a person, you can be lumped into a category of a type of people.

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God is saving people from your people group. If you do not know him, turn to Christ. That's right.

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He's still saving folks. We're still here. Amen. What was that?

58:49

First Peter three? Second Peter three? That one dripped out of context too, but anyway.

58:56

That was going to be our next verse. I thought this might be where you're going. Absolutely.

59:07

And I thought it was interesting when I was listening to John Piper again, how when he tackles this verse, 1

59:14

Timothy 2, 4, he goes all the way over to 2

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Timothy 2, verse 25, where that same wording is used, very, very same wording.

59:29

He desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. In 2

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Timothy 2, 25, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps

59:41

God may grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth.

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So it's God who's doing the granting. If perhaps God would grant them repentance, then leading them to the knowledge of the truth.

01:00:01

So it goes back to God, to even Paul writing to Timothy, this pastoral epistle, taking it back to God, his freedom, his sovereignty.

01:00:15

Any last thoughts on that verse, Paul? What was it? It was 2 Peter three, right?

01:00:22

You didn't bring it up here on the screen, so. Oh, well, before we move to that, I was going to see if you had any last thoughts on Peter.

01:00:29

No. I mean, Timothy. No, no. I'm ready for this next verse. I was expecting that, like Dan said, it's ripped straight out of context.

01:00:41

Yeah, let's put it back in there. Put it back in context for us. Yeah, absolutely. Put us in context, Paul. All right, so I would say this, since you're manning the keyboard.

01:00:55

Okay. So Becky posted that a moment ago, right? Proper exegesis, context, context, context.

01:01:04

That's Chris Roseborough right there, right? Solid, straight up. Actually, I'm using that this coming

01:01:11

Sunday as a lead in statement. But important context is understanding who is speaking, who is being spoken to.

01:01:22

So if you would go back to chapter one of this same second epistle, verse one.

01:01:35

Oh, can I do it up here? There we go. All right. There you go.

01:01:41

So Simon Peter tells us who's writing the book, a bondservant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, a slave of Christ to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of God, our savior in Jesus Christ.

01:02:00

Anytime, anytime we're reading an epistle, a letter, well, the scripture in general, go back if you're wondering who's speaking, who's being spoken to, because that's very important in understanding context.

01:02:17

Peter's speaking. He's speaking to those who have received the same kind of faith as ours. That's salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

01:02:24

And then you jump back to second Peter three, nine, and folks will say, well, hang on just a minute.

01:02:32

I'm turning there too. Doesn't it say the Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness, but is long suffering to us, not willing that any should perish.

01:02:47

That's this entire letter. It's not written to the world. It's written to those who have like precious faith, those who are saved and what

01:02:56

Peter is encouraging them because he's writing to the dispersed abroad. He's encouraging them.

01:03:02

Look, you are not going to be forgotten. You are not going to be left out.

01:03:08

Those, and we go back to Romans, those whom God calls or those whom God predestines, he calls and those he calls, you can be certain that he justifies you.

01:03:19

And you can be certain that one day you will be glorified. And it just points us back to the great hope that we have as Christians.

01:03:27

Our hope is not in this world. Peter's message to the dispersion, the scattered church abroad was, look, you are not forgotten.

01:03:37

You are not out of God's reach. If God called you, be sure that he's going to complete this work of salvation in you.

01:03:45

Hmm. So that's the context in my estimation.

01:03:51

Absolutely. And I think there's a good video, if it's still on YouTube, that goes through, because you can start in chapter three, verse nine, and you can go back to the,

01:04:03

I think it's the beginning of the chapter, the beginning of the book. And then you can even go all the way back to first Peter, I think.

01:04:11

But they follow the context and it shows, I think one of the verses shows that he was speaking to the elders.

01:04:19

In one of the verses, if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, but it points, all those verses point to exactly what

01:04:27

Claude was talking about. That it was, he was speaking to a specific group of people.

01:04:34

And that specific group of people encompasses this word, any. That's the context of any here in verse nine.

01:04:44

So, wow, I'm so thankful for you guys. And thank you for putting those two verses in their proper context.

01:04:53

We're thankful for God's word and his mercy and grace for giving us his word and giving us the

01:04:59

Holy Spirit to help understand that word and teachers like you guys who help us to understand his word.

01:05:05

So, Claude, I'd love for you to, give that wonderful gospel message.

01:05:13

And Dan would pray for us when he finishes and close us out. All right, so the gospel message quite simply is this, that Christ died for our sins, that he rose again on the third day or that he was buried and that he rose again on the third day.

01:05:29

The conversation tonight, as Dan mentioned, has the rub that folks have is that it's unfair that God unconditionally elects men, women, boys and girls unto salvation.

01:05:42

But the true, I would say this, the true injustice, the greatest injustice that this world has ever been made aware of is the injustice that Christ would die for our sins.

01:06:00

And it is us who have committed the injustice, the sin against the Holy God. But God in his love and in his mercy has given us his only begotten son.

01:06:14

God who is holy and just and righteous in all his doings required a payment for sin.

01:06:23

His son paid the penalty for our sins on the cross for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him would not perish but have everlasting life.

01:06:40

For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved.

01:06:46

And the world consists, speaking in the scriptural sense,

01:06:53

Jew and Gentile, doesn't matter if, as they read earlier in Romans, right?

01:06:59

It's not all who say they're of Israel are of Israel, but it's those, not those who have had the circumcision of the flesh, those who have had their hearts circumcised at the work of regeneration that God has accomplished in them.

01:07:17

So our exhortation would be to you this, this gospel call is repent of your sin, turn from your sin, believe on the living

01:07:26

God today. And you will know because the scripture has assured us that God gives his spirit to those whom he has predestined, called, justified, and will one day glorify.

01:07:41

And we have the Holy Spirit as the assurance of our salvation. Take Dan's advice, just sit and stare at the cross.

01:07:55

Dan, close us if you will, brother. Dear heavenly father, thank you for tonight, for being able to talk about your work and about your wonderful salvation.

01:08:03

We pray that as we go from this place in this time, you would cause that to sink in each one of our hearts.

01:08:13

So we would remember your goodness, your grace in everything that we do.

01:08:19

I love you, Lord. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you all for watching this pastors panel podcast.

01:08:26

Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Claude. We've looked at total depravity. We've looked at unconditional election and we are looking forward to next week,

01:08:34

Lord willing, limited atonement. So join us if you will next Thursday at 8 .30