Mormon apologist angry with Jeff Durbin

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This is the Bible side, this is our side. We have the nature of God, God created

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Adam, Genesis 1 -27, and here, you know, Adam from the

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Garden of Eden is our father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do. And he puts a quote there,

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B, and you find B somewhere in there. General Discourses, volume 1, page 50 and 51.

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So, I can agree that at one point Brigham Young probably said that. He did say that, yes.

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And so, therefore, that could be an accurate statement. Yes. So, but at the same time,

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I went through this and did a tract just kind of saying, but this is how

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I understand. It's not so much as exactly what it's saying, but my understanding of what it means then when he said it.

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What does it mean? And we have different opinions on what it means on some certain things compared to what he was pointing out and saying, well, this means this.

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And I was kind of trying to, in my tract, back to him saying, well, okay, I don't see it that way, I see it this way.

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So, we did disagree on certain things, but I understand he's quoting here General Discourses.

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And I said, yep, it was right there in General Discourses. And that was that point you made last night. Right. But the thing

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I noticed here is that this says basic teachings in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints. I said it wasn't very basic. It isn't very basic. Okay, let's do one of those so we can make sure that you understand where I'm getting at basic teachings.

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When Brigham Young says, when he teaches Adam God that if you make light of it or don't believe it, that your eternal destiny depends on it,

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I'd call that a pretty basic teaching about salvation. Except for one thing. The four standard works is what we hold as scripture.

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You don't have a single Bible verse or a single Book of Mormon verse on this side. That's actually not true.

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That's actually not true. Show me a Bible verse or a Book of Mormon verse. The Bible verses are over here.

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No, on this side. You asked for it. This is your side. This is your side. I'm saying on our side.

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Yeah, the Bible verses. If you put Bible verses on our side, he'd be trying to point out that we're teaching out of the

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Bible. He wouldn't want to do that. He wouldn't want to do that. That's the thing. Now, I put Bible verses in my answer back, but I didn't.

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And that would be where we'd be, but the point is that I know. One of the things that's important to note is that Brigham Young didn't hold to your view of the standard works.

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Brigham Young taught that he's. You don't know that. Let me give you a direct quote.

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You don't want to point out anything where we are in line with the Bible. Well, let me just give you what

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Brigham Young says. That's the best thing to do is for solace to go to what the man says. Where he says here, but you don't want to point out where he says there.

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Well, Stephan, we're doing one point at a time. And the point you made was that you believe that it wasn't in the four standard works, so it doesn't count.

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And so what I'm telling you is that the prophet of your church, that you hold as a prophet, doesn't agree with your position.

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He said, when he preached, that I've never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men that they may not call scripture.

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Now, his sermons, he saw as scripture. You apparently, at this point, believe that you can discount a teaching where he says that you'll be damned.

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He said that you'll be damned if you deny the Adam God doctrine. You're saying, well, it's not in the standard works, so I don't have to believe it.

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Brigham didn't agree with your position. So you're like a dog who latches onto a bone and you won't let go of it.

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Well, I mean, at this point, you're not answering the challenge. You're just holding on to that and you won't let go of that if your life depends on it.

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If your soul depends on it, you won't let go of that. It's like the freedomfromreligion .org

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people won't let go of when Jesus said, I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

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Well, let me do this. Do you agree with Brigham? And they won't let him say, peace I leave with you, not as the world giveth

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I unto you. They won't acknowledge that. Well, before you compare me to the

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Freedom From Religion Foundation, because I simply quote Brigham, let me ask you if you agree with Brigham that his sermons were scripture.

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No. Okay, so you disagree with your prophet. I do not disagree with him.

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I'm saying... Okay, I'll quote it to you, you say yes or no. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men they may not call scripture.

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Agree or disagree? I'm going to have to look at that in context with everything else.

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Let me ask you, Craig, are we going to take everything that Brigham Young said as scripture?

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Well, if he says it in a context that he's giving a sermon and explains and says, this is what

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I'm saying to you, I'm preaching this to you, and then he turns around and uses that, and by saying, this is scripture, well then, evidently, the people in the audience would,

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I would say, consider that scripture at that time. At that time. Now, we have a modern -day prophet.

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Do we believe in modern revelation? Yes. When a modern -day prophet says something different from what

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Brigham Young says, do we still hang on to Brigham Young's words like a dog to a bone and discount what our modern -day prophet says?

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No. If the things that the modern -day prophet, if he goes through and says,

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Brigham Young said this, and I disagree with Brigham Young, I'm saying it's this way. Well, then

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I would go by and say, okay, what my prophet is saying, if he's going to disagree with Brigham Young, maybe he has a point, maybe he has a certain reason, then

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I'm going to go ahead and go with the living one, because maybe he has more knowledge given to him. We go by our living prophet.

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Right. But I haven't seen them go through and just say that when

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Brigham Young said this, or Brigham Young said this, or Brigham Young said this, we don't fight amongst our prophets.

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So over a hundred different sects of Mormonism don't fight over your prophets? We don't play your games,

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Nick, or Jeff. We don't play your games. I'm answering your question. You're playing my games.

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Stephen, that's an honest question. No, it is not. You said that you have a monolithic view.

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Just a minute. I did not use the word monolithic. Okay, with the word monolithic... Now, just a minute, just a minute. Monolithic means...

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Do you remember when the Pharisees asked Jesus questions so that they could catch him at his words?

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Right. Do you remember that? That's exactly what you're doing with us. Okay. All right. Well, that remains to be seen.

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And that's the only reason why you're having this conversation, is so that you can catch us at our words. That remains to be seen right now.

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But the point is that you were saying just now that the two of you have a monolithic view about how you're going to take...

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No, we do not have a monolithic view. You said that you have... that you don't disagree with this issue on the prophets.

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And I was saying that what about the over a hundred different sects of Mormons that do? No, no, no. We do not use theobabble.

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Okay. All right. Am I correct, Jeff? So, how about RLDS? They agree with you on your prophet?

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We agree with... They would agree with you that your modern prophet gets to change what

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Brigham said and... We're not... It's hard to call you at this number, but that's because... I got to change that.

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I got to change that. Let me give you my new one, so you know my new one. This is what the Bible teaches.

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This is what the Mormons teach. Half -truths. Stephan, nothing on there is a misrepresentation of what you say.

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They're quotes. They're quotes from your prophets. If you don't agree with them, the point is, if you don't agree with them, you don't agree with your prophets.

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That's the point. If I was to give you a map and say, this is a map to my house, but every other turn might be wrong, would you like that map or would you like a better map?

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Except for one thing... No, no. Would you like a better map or would you want that map? If the Bible is translated correctly and there's many plain and precious truths missing out of it, why would you even trust the

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Bible? Why could you even do that? So your whole argument is skewed now. Except for one thing. I give people a complete map.

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And a false gospel. I give people a complete... Five steps to salvation. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that part.

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Well, why haven't you corrected this? I told you last night. I told you last night.

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You're still handing it out. You don't believe in reading the whole Bible. I do. Stephan, don't be unfair. I do. Well, then show it to me here.

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Stephan, it's a tract to show a point. I can't write a book and hand it to people out here.

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There's a hundred issues I'd like to talk about, like the many different versions of Joseph Smith's first vision. I can talk about his life.

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He didn't give a hundred versions. I said the many different versions of his first vision. We could talk about his life.

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We could talk about his character. We could talk about his false prophecies. We could talk about his lying about being able to translate dead languages and the

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Pearl of Great Price. I don't have a book to write. I have a tract to hand to somebody. These things you can't disagree with.

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Paul gave three different versions in the Book of Acts on his vision. Actually, no, that's not true.

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He didn't. It's a common... If you read through the Book of Acts, there are three accounts of his vision on the road to Damascus.

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There are not three separate accounts to his vision on the road to Damascus. If you understand the Greek, you'd understand what he means by what was audible and understood.

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When he spoke on three different occasions, you will see that he gave three different hints.

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Stephan, what does that have to do, my friend, with what I just said to you about Joseph's false prophecies, with his different versions of the first vision?

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Well, you brought up different versions of his first vision. No, but in the different versions of his first vision, they're different.

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They're different in who was there. And who he was talking to. There's differences in who was there?

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There's differences as to the purpose and scope of the vision? I'm just saying that I am telling people on one page,

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I am encouraging people to read the whole Bible. Stephan, I know. You've handed that out as long as I've been here, bud.

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And I have never seen a tract that says, read the whole

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Bible. Well, because the point of that tract is to demonstrate that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the

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Apostles and Prophets of Mormonism are taught a false God and false gospel. And so it's different points to demonstrate that.

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And like I told you, Stephan, we don't have to say that. If somebody is regenerated, if God gives them a new heart, automatically they're going to want that bread of life.

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They're going to want God's Word. And nobody has to tell me to go read the Bible. I do it because God is inside of me.

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And His Holy Spirit opens up my eyes to see hidden things. I've met Christians of all churches, including the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, including Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans.

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In fact, when I went to Manti in 2010, they actually resisted reading the whole

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Bible. They said, oh, we don't have to read the whole Bible. The Lutherans, when

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Martin Luther came within inches of losing his life because of the

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Bible, I couldn't believe it. It was Lutherans who were resisting me when

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I was encouraging them to read the whole Bible. Were they resisting you when you said that there's something salvific about reading the

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Bible? Because that's what your thing alludes to, that to be able to be safe, one must read the whole Bible. I just say, here's a

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Bible. No, I just said, I want to encourage you to read the whole Bible. He said, you don't have to read the whole

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Bible. They didn't even want to look at a Bible reading plan. Stephan, what does that have to do with the tract issue?

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That's what you were bringing up. The tract issue specifically states, teachings of Brigham Young, Joseph Smith.

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I didn't even mention Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. Those Lutherans didn't even want to read the whole

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Bible. Stephan, you're talking about Lutherans now, but what we were talking about right before that was the tract itself. And I was giving half -truths and everything else.

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And my point to you was, those are quotations of your prophets and apostles. According to Brigham, do you agree with Adam God doctrine?

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Do you agree with Adam God? No. No, okay. He says you're damned. I'm not going to worry about that.

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Okay, so what you've done there is what your church fundamentally tells people when they meet them at their door, is that our church has restored prophets and apostles to the church.

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Surely the Lord God will do nothing except what? He revealed the secret unto the servants of prophets.

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There you go. And so you say that we have restored prophets and apostles to the church. And now you're saying that your prophets can tell lies.

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Tell me what has President Thomas S. Monson said about that.

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Well, this tract is about... I just want to know, have you checked up on what has

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Thomas S. Monson said? It's irrelevant to this point, to what your church taught.

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You don't want to know what the modern day prophets... Oh, I would love to get whatever his teachings are. And I will go through those as well.

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But what we're talking about... No, you won't. You're not interested here. I'm very interested. Very interested. And the thing is,

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I want you to know, the text, Don't Judge, is specifically about judging people's motives.

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And one thing you can't do, Stephan, is you can't judge my motives. Have you read the testimony of the apostles of their witness of Jesus Christ?

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We have a one -page thing that was put out just a few years ago about the testimony of the apostles.

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May have. I may not have. I'm not sure. Have you read the Family of Proclamation to the

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World? Yes. Yes. That sounds familiar. Do you attack that? It's been a long time since I read it, so I'd have to look at it again to see what it says.

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Okay. Well, get the... But don't forget, Stephan, I know what your church teaches about God. And that's enough. No, you only know what

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Brigham Young taught. I know what you told me last night about God. That you can become one and use to be a man.

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Yeah. Let me ask you something. That I know. How would you feel if someone walked up to you...

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You have two sons, am I correct? Yes. Yes. How would you feel if someone walked up to your two sons and told them you will never, ever grow up to be like your father?

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You're never going to grow up. You'll be like Peter Pan. You will never grow up. It's not an analogy to us and God.

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You will never be a god, Stephan. God already said so. And it's an abomination to believe that you will. No, actually, he did say it.

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If you read the whole Bible. Okay. Can you tell me again, which you've done this for ten years now, if you have an answer yet, for before me there was no

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God formed, neither shall there be after me. That's in Isaiah. That's a ten year running conversation, and you never give me an answer.

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And I told you 1 John chapter 3, verses 1 -3. Okay. What is your answer to 43, 10 of Isaiah? That text.

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None before, none after. That's like Brigham Young versus Thomas S. Monson. No, no, no, no.

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The Bible says the holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Isaiah's revelation is going to be the same

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God's revelation as John. And so John, the Holy Spirit is not going to contradict himself.

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And so with that, what is your answer to the Holy Spirit's revelation in Isaiah 43, 10? It's just like Jesus Christ saying,

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Peace I leave with you, peace I give you, not as the world giveth, give I unto you.

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And in another place he says, Do not think I have come to bring peace. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

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Totally opposite statements, but in context. Yes, and you know that I agree with you on context and how important it is.

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I've taught classes on hermeneutics, which is biblical interpretation. So read what

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Brigham Young said in context. We're talking about Isaiah. Read what Isaiah said in context.

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Read what 1 John 3 says in context. Can I give you some more of the context? None before and none after, as in no more gods.

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There's no gods before him. None, no gods after him. Baal is a false god.

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And so are all gods, because he says none before, none after, no gods. He's talking about man -made gods.

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No, he's talking about gods. He says no god formed before me, none after me. You believe that there was, and you'll become one.

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What's your answer for God? Well, look in Job chapter 1.

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Isaiah 43 .10. What's your answer for God when he says none before, none after? I just told you.

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He says no god. No god. No god. Not just Baal. Baal, Shemash, Dagon, Ashtaroth.

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Mithras, Thor. Thor. No god. Zeus. No god. All of those gods.

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He says he doesn't even know. In that context, he doesn't even know of any other god. You believe that there's a council of gods that came together to plan this earth.

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There are true gods. Yes. There are false gods. So you disagree with the God of the Bible. No. I agree.

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So the God of the Bible says he doesn't know of any other gods. You say that he does know other gods.

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He does know true gods, but when he's talking to idolatrous Israel, he's telling them that these gods that you have made are false.

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Where does it say that in Isaiah 43, 44, 45? You show me those words. The context is, and I'll give you some more,

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I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no god. You don't believe he's the first or the last because you hope to become one like him.

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Again, it's context. Just like I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I'm giving you the context.

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He says this. Is there a god besides me? Indeed, there is no other god. But I know not one. He doesn't even know of any other gods.

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You think that there are many gods. So according to you, God would know lots of other gods. He says he doesn't know one.

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Oh, he does. So you disagree with God. No, I agree with him in context.

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What is your answer for him when he says he doesn't know of any other gods? I told you. Your answer is you're saying he does. He does, but in the other context.

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What other context is there he doesn't even know of one other god? He's telling the idolatrous

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Israelites that he does not know Baal.

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He does not know Ashtaroth. He says he doesn't know of any other god. Any other god.

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You believe that he does. Stephan, just agree with us. This is what I was saying last night. It would be so much more helpful if we just came to the agreement as partners in discussion that the more simple and,

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I think, appropriate thing to do is for you to say, I disagree with those texts. No, I do not disagree with Isaiah because he's, as I said last night, you're mixing apples and oranges.

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Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me. I'm the first, the last. Beside me there's no god. I don't know of any other gods.

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You disagree with all of that with your belief system. I do not disagree with Isaiah. So you believe that God is the first and the last?

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As far as Isaiah is telling him that Baal worship is false. Notice how you have to import the concept of Baal worship and everything else on top of a statement where he says he's the first and last and doesn't know of any other gods.

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You're adding as many, importing as many things into the text as you can. I'm not importing. I'm saying he's talking about Baal worship.

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Other gods. Other gods. And he says there's none before him, none after him.

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You don't get it. None formed before him, none after him. Can we just agree that Joseph disagrees with God?

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You disagree with God. No, I do not disagree with God. I completely agree with God.

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You just don't get it. Except there. No, especially there. Especially there you agree that God doesn't know of any other gods.

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He does not know Baal. Notice how you change the text. No. I'm quoting it, you're changing it.

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No, I'm agreeing with the text, the meaning of the text.

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The meaning of the text is he doesn't know of any other gods. Not even one. Not even one.

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Jeff, you have lockjaw. You have theological lockjaw. That's an appropriate response to someone who doesn't have an answer to the scriptures.