Mormon apologist angry with Jeff Durbin

This is the Bible side. This is our side.

Yeah, the nature of God God created and this is 127 and instead of that and here. You know Adam from the Garden of Eden is our father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do. Yeah, yeah, and he puts a quote there be and you find be.

Somewhere in there general discourses page 41 page 50 and 51. Okay, so I can agree that at one point. Brigham Young. He did say that yes, and so therefore that's could be a statement. Yes, so I but but at the same time I went through this and and did attract just kind of saying.

But this is how I understand. It's not so much as exactly what it's saying, but my understanding of what it means then when he said. And we have different opinions on what it means on some certain things compared to.

What he was pointing out saying? Well, this means this and I was kind of trying to my track back to him saying well, okay I don't see that way. I see it this way. So what we did disagree on certain things, but I understand he's quoting here.

Now that points you last night, right. But the thing I noticed here.

Brigham Young, the Standard Works, and Whether Sermons Count as Scripture

Is that this says basic teachings in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I said it wasn't very basic. It isn't very basic. Okay, let's let's take those two.

Let's just do one of those so you make sure they understand where I'm getting at. A basic teachings when Brigham Young says. When Brigham Young says when he teaches Adam God. That if you make light of it or don't believe it that your eternal destiny depends on it.

I'd call that a pretty basic teaching about salvation. Except for one thing.

The the four standard works right is what we hold as Scripture. You don't have a single Bible verse or a single Book of Mormon verse. That's actually not true.

That's actually not true. What. Show me. A Bible verse or a book of Bible for the Bible verses are over here. No on this side. You ask for it. Yes your side right you ask is your side?

Yeah, I'm saying on our side the Bible verses. Bible verses on our side.

He'd be trying to point us that we're teaching out of the Bible, right?

And that would be now where we can be worried bait but but the point is is that I know. One of the things one of the things that's important to note is that Brigham Young didn't hold to your view of the standard works.

Brigham Young taught that you don't know that you don't. Well. Directly give me a direct quote. You don't want to point out anything.

Where we are in line with the Bible. Well, let me. Well, let me just give you what Brigham Young says. That's the best thing to do is for solace to go where he says here.

But you don't want to point out where he says there.

Well, Stefan, we're doing one point at a time and the point you made was that you believe that. That's why it wasn't in the four standard works. It doesn't count and so what I'm telling you is that the prophet of your church that you hold to the prophet doesn't agree with Your position.

He said when he preached that I've never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men that they may Not call scripture now his sermons. He saw scripture. You you apparently at this point believe that you can discount to teaching where he says that you'll be damned.

He said that you'll be damned if you deny the Adam God doctrine. You're saying what's not the standard works that I have to believe it Brigham didn't agree with your position.

So you get you you you're like you're like a Dog who latches on to a bone and you won't let go of it.

And well, I mean, that's at this point. You're just at this point. You're not you're not answering.

You're not answering on to that and you won't let go of that if your life depends on it. If your soul depends on it, you won't let go of that. It's it's like the freedom from religion. Or people won't let go of when Jesus said I have not come to bring peace, but I saw let me do this.

Do you agree with right now? Let him say? Peace I leave with you much not as the world giveth if I unto you. They won't acknowledge that.

Before you compare me to the freedom from religion foundation because I simply quote Brigham. Let me ask you if you agree with Brigham that his sermons were scripture. No, okay, so you disagree with your prophet.

I I.

Do not disagree with him. I'm saying okay. I'll quote it to you something you say yes or no.

I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men. They may not call scripture agree or disagree.

I'm gonna have to look at that in context with everything else. Let me ask you Craig. Are we going to take everything that Brigham Young said as scripture?

Well, if he says it in a context that he's giving a sermon and explains it says this is what I'm saying to you I'm preaching this to you and then he turns around and uses that and by saying this is scripture.

Well, then evidently the people in the audience would I would say consider that scripture at that time at that time.

But now people now we have a modern day. When a modern-day prophet says something different from what Brigham Young says, okay. Do we still hang on to Brigham Young? Words like a dog to a bone and discount what our modern-day prophet says.

Well, no, if the things that their modern-day prophet if he goes through and says Brigham Young said this and I disagree with Brigham Young. I'm saying it's this way. Well, then I would go by and say okay what my prophet is saying if he's gonna disagree with Brigham Young.

Maybe he has a point maybe he has a certain reason then I'm gonna go ahead and go with the living one.

Because maybe he has more knowledge given to him. We go by our living prophet, right?

And at that point, I haven't seen them go through and just say That when Brigham Young said this or Brigham Young said this or Brigham Young said this.

We don't fight. We don't fight amongst our prophets. So they're over a hundred different sects of Mormonism. Don't fight over your prophets.

Wait.

We don't we don't play your games Nick or Jeff.

We don't play. That's that's that I'm answering your questions. That you're playing mind games. Stephanie that's a that's an honest question. No, it is not you said that you have a monolithic view.

Just a minute. I did not use the word monolithic. Okay with a word Just a minute. Monolithic means do you remember when the Pharisees asked? Jesus questions so that they could catch him at his words, right?

Do you remember that? That's exactly what you're doing with us. All right. Well, and that's the only reason why you're having this conversation.

Is so that you can catch us at our word that remains to be seen right now. But the point is is that you were saying just now that the two of you have a monolithic view about how you're gonna take. We do not have a little if they do said that you have that you don't disagree with this issue on the prophets and I was Saying that what about over a hundred different types of Mormons?

No, no, we do not use Theobabble. Okay. All right, and that's correct. Yeah. So, so how about our LDS they agree with you on your profit?

We agree with.

They would agree with you that your modern prophet gets to change what Brigham said and.

What the Bible teaches this is what the Mormons teach half truth.

Nothing on there is a misrepresentation. What you say they're quotes. They're quotes from your prophets if you don't agree with them. The point is if you don't agree with them, you don't agree with your prophets.

That's the point if I was to give you a map and say this is a map to my house. But every every other turn might be wrong. Would you like that map or would you like a better map except for one thing? No, no.

Would you like a better map or would you would you would you want that? The Bible is translated correctly and there's many plain and precious truths missing out of it. Why would you even trust the Bible?

Why could you even do that? Except the whole argument is skewed. Except for one thing. I give people a.

Complete map.

And a false gospel. I give people five five five steps of salvation. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that part. Well, why haven't you corrected this? I told you last night. I Believe in reading the whole Bible.

I do. I just haven't don't be unfair. I do. Well, then show it to me then show it to me here Stefan. It's a track to show a point. I can't write a book in hand of the people out here. I did it. There's a hundred issues.

I'd like to talk about like the many different versions of Joseph Smith's first vision. I can talk about his ideas life and his hundred versions. I said the many different versions of his first vision.

We could talk about his life. We could talk about his character. We could talk about his false prophecies. We could talk about his lying while being able to translate a dead languages and the Pearl of Great Price.

I don't have a book to write. I have a track to hand to somebody and these things these things you can't disagree with.

Paul gave three different versions in the book of Acts on his vision.

Actually, no, that's not true. He didn't.

It's a common read through the book of Acts. There are three accounts of his Vision on the road to that.

There are not three separate accounts to his vision on the roads of Damascus. If you understand the Greek you'd understand what he means by what was audible and understood when he spoke on three different occasions.

Yeah, you will see that he.

Gave three different Stefan. What does that have to do my friends with what I just said to you about Joseph's false Prophecies with his different versions of the first vision. With you brought up different versions of his first vision.

No, but in the in the different versions of his first vision there they're different. They're different and who was. They're different and who was there he was talking to. There's difference in differences in who was there.

There's differences as the purpose and scope of the vision. I'm just saying that I am telling people on one page. Mm-hmm. I am encouraging people to read the whole Bible. Stefan I know you've handed that out as long as I've been here, but and I have never seen a tract That says read the whole Bible.

Well, because the point of that tract is to demonstrate that Joseph Smith Brigham Young and the Apostles and prophets of Mormonism. It's hot at false. God and false gospel.

And so it's different points to demonstrate that and like I told you stuff and we don't have to say that if something if somebody Is regenerated if God gives them a new heart automatically, they're gonna want that bread of life.

They're gonna want God's Word and nobody has to tell me to go read the Bible. I do it because God is inside of me and this Holy Spirit opens up my eyes to see.

Christians of all churches including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Including Baptist Methodist Lutherans. In fact when I went to Manti in 2010 They actually resisted reading the whole Bible.

They said oh, we don't have to read the whole Bible the Lutherans. When Martin Luther came within inches of losing his life because of the Bible I Couldn't believe it. It was Lutherans who were resisting me.

Why were they resisting you when you said that there's something salvific about reading the Bible. Because that's what you're thinking.

I just say here's a Bible 22. You know, I just said I want to encourage you to read the whole Bible.

You don't have to read the whole Bible.

They didn't even want to look at a Bible reading plan Stefan. What does that have to do with the tract issue? That's what you were bringing up the tract issue. Specifically states teachings of Brigham Young Joseph Smith.

I didn't even mention Brigham Young Joseph Smith. Oh, well, that's what the track that's didn't even want to read the whole Bible Stefan. You're talking about Lutherans now. But what we were talking about right before that was the tract itself.

And I was giving half truths and everything else and my point to you was those are quotations of your prophets and apostles. According to Brigham, do you do you agree with Adam God doctrine? Do you agree with that Adam God?

No. No. Okay. He says you're damned. Okay, so so what you've done there is what your fund church fundamentally tells people when they meet him at their door. Is that our church has restored prophets and apostles to the church?

Surely the Lord God will do nothing except why he revealed it the secret unto the servants of profit.

There you go.

And then so you say that we have restored prophets and apostles to the church and now you're saying that your prophets can tell lies.

Tell me what? Well, this tract is about. I just want to know. Have you checked up on what has Thomas S.

It's irrelevant to this point to the your church.

Taught you don't want to know what the well.

I would love to get whatever his teachings are and I will and I will go through those as well. But what we're talking about you won't and you're not interested very interested very interested. And and and the thing is I want you knows the the text don't judge.

Is specifically about judging people's motives and one thing you can't do Stefan is you can't judge my motives.

Of the apostles of their witness of Jesus Christ. That we have a one-page thing that was put out just a few years ago.

About the testimony of the Apostles. May have may I may not have. I don't know. I'm not sure.

Have you read the family of proclamation to the world? Yes. That's not you attack that I.

It's been a long time since I read it. So I'd have to look at it again to see what what it says. Well, but don't forget Stefan I know what your church teaches about God and that's enough. No, you don't you only know what?

Brigham young I know what you told me last night about God that you can become one and he used to be a man. Yeah, that I know.

How would you feel if someone walked up to you have two sons? Yes. Yes. How would you feel if someone walked up to your two sons and told them you will never ever? Grow up to be like your father. You're never gonna grow up.

You'll be like Peter Pan.

You will never grow up. Not an analogy to us in God. You will never be a god. Stefan. God already said so and it's an abomination to believe that you will know actually.

He did say if you read the whole Bible.

Okay, can you tell me again what you've done this for 10 years now if you have an answer yet for before me? There was no God for me. There shall there be after me. That's in Isaiah. It's a 10-year running conversation.

You never give me an answer. I told you first John chapter 3, but what is your answer to 43 10 of Isaiah? That text.

None before not after. That's like Brigham Young versus Thomas S.

Monson. No, no, no, no, no. The Bible says the holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Isaiah's revelation is gonna be the same God's revelation as John. And so John the Holy Spirit is not going to contradict himself and so with that.

What is your answer to the Holy Spirit's revelation in Isaiah 43 10? Okay. It's just like Jesus Christ saying.

Peace I leave with you. Peace I give you not as the world giveth you I unto you and in another place. He says do not think I have come to bring peace. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. Totally opposite statements in content in context.

Yes.

And you know that you you know, you know that I agree with you in context and how important it is. I've taught I've taught classes on yeah, I taught classes on hermeneutics, which is biblical interpretation.

So read what Brigham Young said in context. We're talking about Isaiah. Yeah read what Isaiah said in Context. Yes read what?

First John chapter 3, can I give you some more of the context in context. None before and none after. No more gods. No. No, there's no gods before him. No, no gods. Is a false God so are all gods because he says none before none after no.

God's talking about man-made God. No, he's talking about gods. He says no God formed before me none after me. You believe that there was and you'll become one. What's your answer for God? Well, look in Job chapter 1 Isaiah 43 10.

What's your answer for God when he says none before none after. I just told you he says no God no God. No God, not just Baal. They're not not much not not not Mithras.

Thor.

No God Zeus. No God all of those. He says he doesn't even know in that context. He doesn't even know of any other God. You believe that there's a council of gods that came together To plan this earth.

There are true gods. Yes, there are false gods. So you disagree with the God of the Bible? No. So the God of the Bible says he doesn't know of any other gods. You says that he does. You say that he does know other gods.

He does know true gods.

He says when he's talking to idolatrous Israel Yes, he's telling them that these gods that you have made are false.

Where does it say that in Isaiah 43 44 45 you show me those words, right? The context is and I'll give you some more. I am the first and I am the last besides me. There is no God. Yes, you don't believe he's the first or the last because you hope to become one like him again.

It's context just like I'm giving you the context. He says this is there a God besides me indeed. There is no other God I know not one. He doesn't even know of any other gods. You think that there are many gods.

So in according to you God would know lots of other gods. He says he is no one. So you disagree with God. No. What is your answer for him when he says he doesn't know of any other gods your answer is you're saying he does.

What other context is there. He doesn't even know of one other God.

He's telling the idolatrous ill Israelites. That he does not know Baal. He does not know Asherah.

He says he doesn't know of any other God any other God. You believe that he does. Stephan just to just agree with us I was saying last night it would be so much more helpful if we just came to the came to the agreement as partners in Discussion that this is more simple and I think appropriate than to do is for you to say I disagree with those tests.

No, I do not disagree with Isaiah because he's you as I said last night you're mixing apples and oranges.

Okay before me there was no God formed. Either shall be after me. I'm the first the last beside me. There's no God. I don't know of any other gods. You disagree with all of that with your belief system.

I do not disagree with Isaiah. So you believe that God is.

The first and the last. As far as I say is telling him so notice how you have to import. Notice how you have to import the the concept of Bale worship and everything else on top of the statement where he says that's what he's talking about.

He says he's the first and last and doesn't know of any other gods. You're adding as many importing as many things into the text. You can't not importing. I'm saying he's talking about other gods. Other gods.

And he says there's none before him none after him. You don't get it. None formed on before him none after him. Just can we just agree that Joseph disagrees with God. You disagree with God.

No, I don't not disagree with God. So I Completely agree with God. You just accept it except there. No, I'm especially there.

Especially there you agree that God doesn't know of any other gods. He does not know Bale. Yeah, notice how you change the text. No.

I'm quoting it. You're changing it. No, I'm I'm agreeing with the text. The meaning of the text.

The meaning of the text is he doesn't know of any other gods not even one. Not even one. Jeff you have lockjaw you have theological lockjaw. That's that's that's an appropriate response to someone who doesn't have an answer to the scriptures.