May 23, 2023 Show with Dr. James White on “A Christian Response to Sean Hannity’s Warning to GOP Candidates to Soften Anti-Abortion Rhetoric”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd day of May, 2023, and I just want to thank everybody on Long Island, New York, for giving me such a warm and hospitable welcome there when

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I was there for a visit to attend a fundraising banquet for Our Savior New American School in Center Reach, Long Island, which is actually an old advertising client of mine when

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I worked for WMCA Radio, one of Salem Media's affiliates in New York, Salem Media being the largest

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Christian radio network in the world, and thought that I would take them up on their request to attend this event for free, and saw some old friends there, including some folks from both

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Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, and also from Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, and the principal of the school there, the headmaster

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I should say, Grace Christian Academy, and what a wonderful time, and also reconnecting with my friend

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Kevin Herman, an old high school classmate who has also come to Christ, and thank you

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Kevin for being such a high point in my visit. Also I can't leave out

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Bill Shishko and his wonderful wife Margaret, Bill being the pastor of the

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Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comack, Long Island. I visited there for worship. It was such a blessed time, and also seeing friends of mine from the church where I was saved back in the 80s,

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, some of whom are now members of the

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Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and I just can't say enough about how blessed

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I was during that three -day visit, actually four -day visit if you include the day that I left.

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So thanks guys, and I hope to see you all again soon, and I am so excited to have back on the program somebody who

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I think I love interviewing more than anybody else, Dr. James R. White, who many of you, if not all of you, recognize that name.

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He is an author of numerous books. He is a New Testament Greek scholar, highly skilled and seasoned debater, professor of apologetics and church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, one of four pastors at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, and host of the

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Dividing Line webcast. He is also co -founder and director and resident apologist at Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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Today we're going to be discussing something very controversial. It's probably going to get some of my listeners angry, but we are going to be talking about or hearing from Dr.

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James R. White with a Christian response to Fox News' Sean Hannity on his warning to GOP candidates to soften their anti -abortion rhetoric to further ensure ballot box victories.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Ion Trip and Sine Radio, my dear friend Dr. James R. White. Well, it's good to be with you,

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Chris. I was actually thinking we were going to do this yesterday, and I was rushing through the morning to – you didn't mention that I don't fly anymore,

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I travel via a fifth wheel trailer, and so I went flying to my next stop, and I was trying to figure out time zones and making sure

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I'd be available by 4 o 'clock Eastern Time, and I get there and I discover that I'm a day early.

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And so I ended up doing a program with Tim Bushong, I'm not sure if you know who he is, but you know everybody.

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Yes, I do. Yes, I do. You know everybody. Asking Chris Arnzen, do you know, and then filling in a name is a real waste of breath.

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Tim Bushong was kind enough to record a commercial for the New American Standard Bible, which still airs on this program.

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Well, there you – well, but he's done much more than that. He did the – our Radio Free Geneva theme is

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Tim Bushong's work, and he just did the music background and then the mixing.

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Have you had Tobias Riemenschneider on your program? No, but I want to. You want to, yeah.

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I've been after him on this show very soon. Perhaps we could do it live from the

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Village Lantern Chairman Restaurant in Lindenhurst. Now, be careful, because he's a real

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German. Well, don't forget Mariana Bloch thought I did a good, believable accent.

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Oh, yes, yes, yes. And she's from Germany. Anyway, he –

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Tim did the music and then the mixing, and Tobias sang Psalm 2 in German.

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Oh, I heard it on the dividing line. And it's wonderful. It's also somewhat scary.

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Yes, it is. I kept looking out the window for an invading army.

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Goose -stepping down the – yeah, it'd be wonderful. But anyway, so I did

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Tim Bushong's program yesterday, and we're going to do the dividing line right after this. So I'm sitting in our studio here in – it's the only fully functional 4K, two -camera, high -quality webcasting studio, video -capable studio that I know of that rolls on wheels.

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So here we are. I am now in metropolitan Tucumcari, New Mexico.

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And you and I have an acquaintance who mocks me regularly for my non -flying and the places that I end up speaking at and stopping at.

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He just mocks me incessantly. You know, are you in gumshoe

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Texas today? And stuff like this. Who is that? Oh, someone you worked for once, shall we say.

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Okay, so obviously you don't want me to mention him, but I know who you're talking about. Of course you do.

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And lots of other people do, too. He just doesn't need any more complications than he's already got in his life. But anyway, yeah,

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I'm out in the middle of absolutely nowhere here, but I have a

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Starlink satellite dish sitting outside this thing, and I'm coming to you via Elon Musk.

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I mean, it truly is amazing what you can do today. It's crystal clear.

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It's astonishing. It really, really is. And we've got a 5G hotspot that we can go to back up on that if something were to happen with the satellite feed.

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And I'm just having a grand old time, Chris. I'm going to tell you, you've been to G3.

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You've seen the lines that form. People wanting to talk and greet, and that's wonderful.

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I love doing that for hours on end. You know, there are also long lines at my booth every time

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I'm at G3, but that's because they put me right next to the men's room. Yeah, okay.

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I'm not going to follow up on that one at all, because I need to go completely south at that point.

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But getting into the smaller churches, I was just with Pastor Derek Melton in Pryor, Oklahoma.

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Yeah, he owes me a knife. Okay, and I'm not going to pass that one on.

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And he actually did a knife that we are going to be auctioning off to help.

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We've already paid for this thing. It's amazing. The RVs paid off, the trucks paid off, the studios paid off.

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Our people have made it possible for us to do this. I think it's absolutely wonderful. But the point is, I get to get into churches and the stories that I can start telling you when you have that opportunity.

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You know, this is Alpha Omega's 40th year. October 7th, we will be having a big shindig in Phoenix to celebrate 40 years.

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Sovereign Grace Church, right? Yes. I'm really getting to see the fruit of 40 years' worth of labor.

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Because not only is it amazing to talk to people who will come up and say, your program is a lifeline for me.

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I was going through so many difficulties, and I was getting drawn this direction, that direction, and all these things.

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And it's one thing to talk to the adults, but the children and now into the next generation of people who've grown up listening to my voice on The Dividing Line, and they're totally freaked out to meet me.

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And I'm like, that is so amazing. And I'd experienced it overseas.

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I was in Pachacoom, South Africa, and I had a homeschool family come up to me. And they had been listening to The Dividing Line for years in South Africa.

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And now to just have this opportunity, it's really special.

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It really, really is. And I don't know how long we're going to have. I'm not sure how long

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I can do this or how long we're going to have the ability to travel freely. I really feel like one of the things that the regime wants is to have us locked into our little cubicles in one little space and make it impossible to travel.

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But as long as we've got the opportunity, I'm going to keep doing it. And pretty soon we're going to be arranging some debates.

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I'll do debates in here online. Oh, yeah, it'll be great.

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It's wonderful. So Rich designed this thing and put it all together, and it's pretty amazing.

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I'm looking at two 4K cameras here that we can do amazing things with. So it's exciting. It really is.

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And so here we are. That's why I'm able to do this with you from Tucumcari, New Mexico.

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Praise God. I also praise God for your willingness to accept the invitation of a new advertiser of mine who just signed a one -year contract for advertising with Iron Trip and Zion Radio, the

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Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society. They are going to be having their Future of Christendom conference,

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September 15th through the 16th, the weekend before G3. This is going to be held in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

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Most likely, there is a slim possibility it may be held in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, but it is more likely to be held in Lancaster.

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They're still looking for a venue. They've got some options that they are investigating. But Dr. James R.

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White is going to be speaking on the theme, The Gospel at War, and there will be subcategories to that main theme.

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And just keep your calendars marked out for September 15th through the 16th.

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That's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And if you want more details, go to futureofchristendom .org,

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futureofchristendom .org, and that will eventually be updated with more details.

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And you could also go to midatlanticreformation .org, midatlanticreformation .org.

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Then, as I mentioned, the following week, that will be September 21st through the 23rd,

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Dr. White will be one of many speakers. I think there's over 40. I don't even understand how they could do this.

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But the Sovereignty of God conference in Atlanta, Georgia, which is the next

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G3 national conference, September 21st through the 23rd.

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And some of the speakers, in addition to Dr. White, include Votie Baucom, Stephen Lawson, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, and Justin Peters, and Ken Ham, and Owen Strand, who is a colleague of Dr.

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White's at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas. James Coates, the pastor in Canada who was arrested for refusing to shut down his worship services during the

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COVID crisis. Scott Anuel, Virgil Walker, Darrell Bernard Harrison, Scott Brown, who

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I just saw a couple of weeks ago at his conference in North Carolina. And for the ladies, there is

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Susan Heck, who I've also had on this program. I've interviewed everybody on this roster at some point, except for James Coates, and I hope that I get an interview with James at some point.

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But that's g3men .org, g3men .org. Use promo code G3ISIR.

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That's G3, Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, G3ISIR, and get 30 % off the registration fee, and you'll be hearing commercials with Dr.

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James R. White reminding you to do that very thing. As I said before, we've got a controversial topic today, a

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Christian response to Fox News' Sean Hannity on his warning to GOP candidates to soften their anti -abortion rhetoric to further ensure ballot box victories.

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I am not vilifying Sean Hannity, and neither is Dr. White. We just are in extremely strong disagreement with him over this, and I have been surprised speaking with brothers in Christ, even theologically reformed and conservative brothers in Christ, who actually agree with Sean Hannity on this.

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It mystified me. But it's basically a matter of how pragmatic should

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Christians be when they are either running for an office or voting for somebody who is running for office in regards to making yourself more appealing to the population surrounding you.

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And this is specifically a charge that Sean Hannity has to those running for office in swing states, especially.

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And he is saying, in summary, if you're running for office and you're in the

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GOP, you better stop claiming that you are opposed to abortion, even in cases of rape, incest, and the life of the mother.

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He is basically saying if you don't include those as exceptions to murdering your unborn child, then you might as well not race, join the race, or you should use— these are my words,

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I'm assuming he means that they should either change their view if they are opposed to abortion for any reason, or use cleverly deceptive language in order to be more tolerable to the more left -leaning voting public.

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But if you could, James, why don't you play the clip of Sean Hannity? And by the way, this is just one clip.

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He has been regularly saying this very same thing on the

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Fox News television program, Hannity. This clip is from his radio program, but if you could play that,

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James, and then we'll have you respond to it. How long do you want to go with it? I'll let you use your gut instinct as to when you want.

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Hear that, or you can just wave at me in the camera, and I'll shut it off. Okay. Okay, here we go.

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Well, thanks for having me. I just wanted to get into talking about the abortion thing you brought up the other day, and how our politicians need to do a better job of being more politically moderate versus actually being morally conservative.

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And I couldn't agree more. I kind of wanted to chime in as a healthcare professional myself, and boots on the ground as a productive woman.

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I'm in a productive age. The thing that the left is doing is a whole bunch of propaganda, and it's about their commercials.

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Just like in Wisconsin, one of my nurse friends, I asked her, I said, what happened? How did this go down?

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And she says, yeah, it's terrible. And she said, but a third to half of the ads that they ran were constantly about all this abortion propaganda.

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And when I say propaganda, I mean they're talking about things that aren't true, but acting like anybody who's conservative or on the right doesn't want them to have the rights based on -

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They're outright lying. Let me be a little more direct than you're being. You're being gracious.

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You're from South Carolina. I get it. I'm a little more blunt. Raised in New York, although I did live in Alabama, Georgia, and other places around the country.

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So you're right. They're demagoguing it. They're lying about it. They're turning it into a big issue.

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Let me give you an example how Republicans better nominate people.

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And they need to understand where people are on this issue. Politically, it's a divisive issue.

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And understand that I believe in the sanctity of life. I'm for life. However, politically speaking, it is a death sentence for candidates, especially in swing states.

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You cannot win. Okay, so I'll give you a case in point.

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Doug Mastriano, running for governor in the great state of Pennsylvania. He lost as - well, let's put it this way.

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The new Governor Shapiro, as a non -incumbent, won that race by the largest margin of any non -incumbent since the early 1940s.

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He got destroyed, utterly decimated. Now, that impacted Dr. Oz's race.

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Mastriano lost by like 16 points. Oz lost by two and a half, three points. I forget the final total.

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But it was close. And Dr. Oz was able to pull off something that very few people can pull off.

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And that is ticket splitting. In other words, somebody would vote for a Democrat for governor, but then switch for a

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Republican on the Senate side. But there's only so much ticket splitting you can ever get. If you had somebody, in the case of Mastriano, no exceptions for rape, incest, or the mother's life.

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Guess what? You're not going to win any race except in a very small few states with that position.

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Now, I'm speaking politically. I'm not speaking morally. I'm not telling you to compromise your values. But those candidates won't win.

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Period. Okay, I think that's probably a good spot right there. Yeah, in fact, that's actually where I ended my written transcript.

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Yeah, and so Doug Mastriano, he has been on my program, Iron Trip and Zion Radio, twice before the election was called for governor.

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I also have had on the program other candidates that were more strongly, clearly in favor of defending human life, even in cases of rape.

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For instance, Kathy Barnett running for Senate, a black woman who is the most conservative candidate that was running.

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She is a woman who was conceived and born through the nightmare of rape that her mother experienced.

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And her mother chose not to have her murdered in the womb because of the inconvenience or because of the uncomfortable experience of knowing that this child is a biological child of a rapist.

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That did not stop her from giving birth to Kathy Barnett. And Sean basically torpedoed her candidacy and brought up things that she had tweeted that that may have looked embarrassing for her.

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And ironically, Sean was an extremely strong supporter of Donald Trump.

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And you could have easily found many tweets and conversations and interviews where Donald Trump even insinuated that Ted Cruz's father was a part of the

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Kennedy assassination. Yeah. So and let me also make it clear.

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When I listen to the Sean Hannity, I am agreeing with him, I would say at least 95 percent of the time, maybe a little less.

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So I'm not vilifying him. And as I said before, there are many

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Christians. I'm sure I've only spoken to a handful about this so far, but there

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I'm sure there are many Christians who agree with him because there is something sympathetic to his argument.

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When we see how the leftists are destroying this nation and in mind boggling ways that we never would have dreamed in our worst nightmares could be coming true.

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But at the same time, I want you to respond to this in light of Christians, both running for office and also the more numerous

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Christians voting for those running for office. When it comes to pragmatism, when it comes to what is more important, being open and honest and bold about your opposition to murder of unborn children for any reason or to be more clever in the way you present your defense of unborn life and make it seem more tolerable and palatable for those who are on the left.

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But if you could pick up there where I left off. Yeah, well, a couple of things.

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I don't watch Sean Hannity. I don't really watch almost any of that anymore. To be honest with you, the only thing

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I used to watch was Tucker Carlson, so I don't really have much to watch anymore along those lines.

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And I used to listen to him some on radio, but I got honestly a little tired of it.

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And so I'm not a big fan, but that's sort of irrelevant to this because in this situation, there's two things people need to know about where I'm coming from.

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The second thing, the more modern situation, is the fact that being one of the elders at Apologia Church, Apologia Church is the home of End Abortion Now.

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And End Abortion Now is an organization that seeks to introduce legislation and is doing so all across the

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United States for equal protection under the law, equal protection for all human beings from conception onward.

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And so it is an abolitionist movement. Now, when people hear that term abolitionist,

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I certainly used to have a very negative view of that because the abolitionists worked outside the church.

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In fact, they protested outside churches. They were G3. Right, right.

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They were just doing things they shouldn't have been doing. And the person who has turned that around and has changed the abolitionist movement and brought it into the church as a gospel issue was

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Jeff Durbin. Pretty much almost with just a few other people, but he was the engine behind it.

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And that was a lot of work and a lot of personal conversation and challenging of people and things like that.

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And so like in January, I preached three out of four Sundays in January because Jeff was giving testimony before state legislatures all over the

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United States for bills of abolition that were being put in, taking on the nastiest of these people.

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And man, I can tell you, the pro -abortion side, the culture of death is the culture of death.

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And its motivation is clear and obvious. He is just masterful at taking those people on.

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He can tie them into knots so quickly that it's truly astonishing.

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He's just so skilled at it. And so that's the more recent aspect of where my response will be coming from here.

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But I go back to the weekend of the birth of my daughter.

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Summer was born on the same weekend that I was arrested outside of an abortion clinic in Phoenix with Operation Rescue.

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And that particular doctor was one of the worst. And he, ironically, only a few years later, was arrested for sexually abusing his patients when they were unconscious.

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And he was just demonic. I mean, just absolutely demonized. It was the things

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I heard him saying when we were in front of his clinic, closing it down. If I impersonated the demonic voices you hear on the old

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Bob Larson program or something like that, it would be pretty funny. Well, yeah, it's true.

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I remember them. Oh, yeah, but that's because we're old. The young people got used to going,

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Bob who? They have no earthly idea what we're talking about. But it would sound very much the same.

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He was just demonic. And what's interesting is I was not able to continue.

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I was actually the media representative for Operation Rescue. Prior to that, I went on local radio stations, secular radio stations, was debating people on the topic.

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I wasn't able to continue that because of the fact that it was made very clear to me in the pro -life movement that we had to keep the gospel out of this.

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I wrote a book called The Fatal Flaw, another book called Answers to Catholic Claims. They were coming out right around that time period.

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Some weird guy back on Long Island eventually got hold of me, and we started doing debates on that subject there.

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And so it was made very clear to me that the mechanism that the pro -life movement was going to use was not the gospel.

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This was a political issue, and it was not a gospel issue. And so I had to stop being involved on that level with them.

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What people don't seem to understand right now, and honestly, Jeff, Zach Conover, Zach Lautenschlager, Dennis, all of our guys would be the best people to be talking to about this because they are absolutely on the ground.

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I hear about this stuff. I obviously am involved as one of the elders there, but they're the ones that are absolutely on the ground doing this stuff.

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But of course I'm more likely going to get Abraham from the Hebrew Scriptures on the show than Jeff Durbin because of the numerous attempts

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I've made to get Jeff back on the show that have failed miserably. You know,

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I've talked to a number of people who say the same thing. I thought

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I just heard thunder here. I'm sitting here going, what on earth is going on here?

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Anyways, yeah, look at that. I've got a thunderstorm coming in. Well, yay. Given that I'm on satellite going your direction, let's hope that we stay connected up here.

30:50

Let's just put it that way. In fact, could you pick up where you left off? Let's remember that you were talking about Jeff Durbin and the work that Apologia Church is doing.

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We have to go to our midway break, and if anybody has a question—actually, it's not the midway break. It's our first commercial break.

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If anybody has a question, just send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

31:14

If you are asking a personal and private question, perhaps you have had an abortion, someone you love is considering one.

31:23

We understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous. But if you are just simply asking a general question about the political and the spiritual ramifications of our discussion on abortion, if it's just a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

31:44

We are going to be right back with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries right after these messages, so please do not go away, and send your emails to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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On a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

32:34

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

32:47

And there's more great news! Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, at the

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G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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It's royaldiadem .com. I'm now back with our guest, Dr. James R. White. I'm not really sure exactly how the weather is affecting our connection.

40:17

Are you there, Dr. White? I'm here. Okay. I was getting nervous there when you were showing me weather reports and things like that and digital images.

40:28

Yes. Isn't it amazing? I can show you the actual live radar of the huge thundercell that is just about to land on top of me.

40:38

And my only concern, obviously, is the satellite connector out there in the wind.

40:44

So it gets knocked over. And give me a few seconds because I still have the 5G to switch over to, to hopefully be able to get back with you.

40:53

But we'll see how it does. It's done great during storms before, so we'll see.

40:58

But there's a lot of lightning in this thing. So there you go. Okay. Well, we were talking about how much

41:05

Apologia Church and the End Abortion Now Ministry and Jeff Durbin and the entire team there at Apologia Church have been used of God to save many, many, many babies from being murdered.

41:22

Perhaps you can give me an exact number. I don't know the number. But I know that it's thousands.

41:28

It really is thousands. Because we have over 900 churches that have become involved with End Abortion Now all around the world.

41:37

And almost all of them are doing regular outreach at the abortion clinics. We do regular outreach at the abortion clinics.

41:44

We've had well over 1 ,000 saves in the Phoenix area. So you multiply that by all the other churches involved.

41:53

And, yeah, so we've been deeply, deeply involved with this. And so all of that comes back to the fact that last year in Louisiana our bill came to the floor.

42:09

Most of the time they're stopped. Most of the time they die in committee. But what's amazing is most of the time if they are going to be killed in committee, they will be killed by the pro -life movement, by the pro -life industry.

42:28

Not by Planned Parenthood. They don't even have to raise a finger. In fact, Jeff was in the capital of Missouri about three weeks ago.

42:41

And the way it came down is the pro -life witnesses testified against our bill.

42:52

And Planned Parenthood did not have to lift a finger. They didn't even have to testify. Because they knew once they had the pro -life organizations there that that was it.

43:02

And in Louisiana it was coming to the floor. And we had the votes. And then

43:09

Roe came down. The reversal of Roe came down. And the pro -life industry freaked out.

43:19

Not expecting it to happen the way that it did. And they scared the people that were going to vote for our bill so that it lost on the floor.

43:29

And so when Roe was struck down, abortion became legal in Louisiana.

43:39

How weird. And in fact in Arizona. The Arizona right to life people traded.

43:47

Abortion was illegal on the books of the laws of the state of Arizona. And the pro -life movement traded removing that for a heartbeat bill.

44:03

And so once Roe fell, abortion would have become illegal in Arizona.

44:10

But now it's not. And so people are really confused by this. And much of it comes back to these issues of rape, incest.

44:22

That's the primary ones. That's the primary issue right there. And the life of the mother or as the leftist would even.

44:29

That one's not. Look, when you have it, that is so rare.

44:36

The vast majority of the actual meaningful instances have to do with rape.

44:43

There are some instances of incest. And in.

44:50

Again, Jeff would have better numbers than I do. The vast majority of instances where it's a matter of the life of the mother or the child.

45:00

It's extremely rare. And very, very often those situations resolve themselves with the death of the child.

45:10

In fact, we. I don't even know. I just personally,

45:16

I just feel like we have entered into a time period. Of so many more stillbirths than than I remembered when

45:27

I was a young person. You know, my own daughters had to.

45:34

And. Apology, we've just had a number of these types of things happening.

45:43

We'll get into more of that right now. But the point is. Jeff does a tremendous job in dealing with the arguments in regards to these hard cases.

45:56

But the fact of the matter is what you have is you have people who want to have abortion regulated, but they do not want to have abortion abolished.

46:11

And when people say, I believe in the sanctity of life. But then say what

46:17

Sean Hannity said and said, but we can't push for this.

46:24

Or we won't get elected. Then my question is, what do you mean you believe in the sanctity of life?

46:31

Right. Exactly. Whose life are we talking about here? And what do you mean that you believe in the sanctity of life?

46:39

Right. He also says something puzzling. Now, I'm speaking politically. I'm not speaking morally.

46:46

I don't even know how you can work that out in practical ways.

46:52

How that difference means anything. In the long run, you are advocating that a woman should have the legal right to murder a baby.

47:01

Or you're just saying that's the best way to win elections is by claiming that she should have that right.

47:10

Well, here in the United States, the Roman Catholic hierarchy in politics has, of course, developed this schizophrenic mind.

47:23

Where I'm personally opposed to abortion. However, I can't force my views on other people.

47:32

And so you have all these allegedly Roman Catholic individuals. You know,

47:38

Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, the whole group. Who will say, religiously,

47:44

I believe this. Politically, I believe this. Well, it results in utter schizophrenia. And here's the issue, as I understand it.

47:57

What we are saying, and this isn't really what the abolition movement was saying in the past.

48:06

Or at least not with consistency and clarity, but it is now. Is that the only way to stop this genocide of innocent children is to change hearts by the gospel.

48:22

And that's not what the pro -life movement believes. In general. The pro -life movement, and again,

48:29

I was a part of it. And was asked to leave it. Because I was raising issues of the gospel.

48:37

Sees managing abortion. And restricting abortion.

48:43

And getting down to, you know, heartbeat bills or things like that.

48:49

They're not dealing with the real issue of abortion. Because our society refuses to deal with the issue of abortion.

48:59

Now I'm going to say something somewhat blunt here. And so let me warn parents ahead of time.

49:04

Basically. Because I think this is rather important.

49:09

And it's somewhat pastoral, but it's blunt. The ultimate philosophical, ethical, and moral good.

49:20

In the United States of America today. Amongst the vast majority of its people.

49:27

Is the orgasm. That is the ultimate thing. Everything else takes second place to being able to have sexual fulfillment.

49:39

And so if that means sexualizing children. If that means abortion. If that means mutilating children.

49:45

It doesn't matter. As long as you can have sexual fulfillment. That is the ultimate good of all things.

49:54

And as long as a society continues to have that perspective. You're going to have rampant, widespread, fornication, sexual activity.

50:07

And despite all of the methodologies of birth control that are now available.

50:13

There are going to be people who don't want to do any of those things. And so this is your emergency backup plan.

50:21

And it is to be in service of the ultimate good of humanity.

50:28

Which is sexual fulfillment. And as long as we exist on that animalistic level.

50:37

As long as that's the highest that we can rise.

50:44

Morally and ethically. Nothing is ever going to happen. Of course abortion will always remain legal and absolutely common.

50:55

Because it's your final backup to allow you to reach the ultimate good.

51:02

The ultimate good being the orgasm. And that's where we are. As long as we treat ourselves as animals.

51:10

As long as we do not see our sexuality as having anything to do with our purpose in life.

51:18

Our calling. Our being made in the image of God. Then we are going to not only have abortion.

51:29

But we're going to continue doing the Nazi -esque selling of body parts.

51:37

And everything else that comes with it. We're not going to stop. And we're not going to ever see the moral element of the mother and the father.

51:50

Making the decision to elevate their sexual satisfaction.

51:57

Above the life that they have been privileged to create.

52:03

In the way that God made us. Because that's not why they're doing it. And that's an unwanted byproduct.

52:12

Now I'll be honest with you. There are so many nations around the world. Right now.

52:18

That have already fallen so far below. Replacement numbers.

52:25

In their reproduction. Reproductive numbers. That this is all going to change.

52:32

Eventually. Because these people will no longer exist. The nations embrace.

52:38

This is the culture of death. Versus the culture of life. And the culture of death will eventually lead to the death.

52:46

Of all the cultures that embrace this. So there are nations. The Japanese are going to disappear.

52:55

They're simply. They're not going to be here seven to eight years from now. They're already having to use robots.

53:00

To take care of elderly Japanese. Because there aren't enough young Japanese.

53:07

To enter into those fields to take care of the old. Their reproduction rate is so far below replacement.

53:16

That the collapse is inevitable. And they will simply cease to exist as a people.

53:21

And we'll pick you up right where you left off. On the Japanese low reproduction rate. When we come back from our midway break.

53:28

Please be patient. This is the longer the normal break. Because Grace Life Radio. 90 .1 FM in Lake City Florida.

53:33

Requires of us a longer break. Because the FCC requires of them. To localize this program.

53:39

Geographically to Lake City Florida. With their own public service announcements. And other local things. While we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:47

We'll be right back after this break. With Dr. James R. White. Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

54:06

I'm very excited to announce. That my long time friend Chris Arnzen. Of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And I are heading down to Atlanta Georgia again.

54:14

For the G3 National Conference. That's Thursday September 21st. Through Saturday the 23rd.

54:20

On a theme that I have been preaching. Teaching. Writing about. And defending in live public debates. For most of my life.

54:26

The sovereignty of God. I'll be joined on the speaking roster. By Steve Lawson. Voti Baucom.

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Paul Washer. Virgil Walker. Scott Anuel. And Josh Bice. Founder of G3 Ministries.

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And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Can get you a 30 % discount.

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For the 30 % discount. Chris Arnzen. I look forward to seeing you all. Thursday September 21st.

55:05

Through Saturday the 23rd. For the G3 National Conference. In Atlanta Georgia. On the sovereignty of God.

55:11

Make sure you stop by. The Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth. And say hi to Chris Arnzen.

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While you're there. Go to g3min .org. And enter promo code. G3ISIR. For your 30 % discount.

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Off the registration fee. I'm Dr.

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Joseph Piper. President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology.

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At Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the

55:56

Deformed Faith. And the Westminster Standards. Should have and use the eight volume commentary.

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Utilizes biblical exegesis. As well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia. And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area.

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To visit that fine congregation. For details on the eight volume commentary. Go to westminstercommentary .com.

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westminstercommentary .com For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

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Visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

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Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

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That Dr. Joseph Pipa of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Music When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005.

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The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Before I return to my guest, Dr. James R. White, I just have a few very important announcements to make.

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Or wherever you live, I've helped people all over the world in our audience find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even within minutes from where they live.

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.

01:10:33

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. We have been hearing Dr. White's response to Fox News' Sean Hannity on his warning to GOP candidates to soften their anti -abortion rhetoric to further ensure ballot box victories.

01:10:49

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private, like it involves an abortion that you may have had or a loved one has had or that a loved one is considering or anything like that.

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We will keep you anonymous as you request, but please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if it is a general question.

01:11:12

And before I go to our listener questions, Dr. White, right before the break, you were talking about the dangerously diminishing reproductive rate in Japan, if you could pick up where you left off.

01:11:23

Well, it's not just Japan. It's Russia. China has recognized that their one -child policy was a disaster, but you can't just turn that around.

01:11:35

You can't say, OK, start having babies, because the Chinese, for example, have now the form of the family was so fundamentally changed by the one -child policy only that many

01:11:52

Chinese, Japanese have become accustomed to this new reality, and they don't want to have children.

01:11:59

They don't want to have those family responsibilities, and so you can't just turn it around.

01:12:06

There's lots of governments who've realized, wow, all that population bomb stuff was a bunch of hooey.

01:12:12

It was ridiculous. The guy that wrote all that stuff has made a lot of money off of just being continuously wrong.

01:12:18

And so we're facing a situation where a lot of this is going to get dealt with by reality itself.

01:12:29

It's just going to happen. But from the Christian perspective, here's the issue.

01:12:36

What do you say to a woman who seeks out an abortion, and then she seeks forgiveness from Christ?

01:12:50

Do you say to her, well, you don't have to worry about the abortion thing, because you were the victim there?

01:12:58

Or do you say to her, that is sin, and there is only one way of forgiveness for that sin?

01:13:09

And when the pro -life movement says, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

01:13:15

Mothers, even using the term mother there is challenging, but women who seek an abortion are themselves victims of abortion.

01:13:27

Then you are taking away from that person the reality that the

01:13:35

Gospel actually addresses. The reality of their need to be forgiven of their sin and reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

01:13:46

There needs to be an honest recognition of what has taken place. Not just the murder of the child, but the fornication that led to it as well.

01:13:56

As long as you come to the conclusion that abortion is a political issue only, and that it will never be addressed.

01:14:09

That's the dichotomy that Hannity is functioning with. Political, moral, two different things.

01:14:17

Rome has come to live with that in the United States. The bishop up in San Francisco who finally said, no more can

01:14:29

Nancy Pelosi partake of the sacramental life of the Roman Catholic Church. He's the odd man out.

01:14:36

The Pope cut him off at the knees. When she goes to Rome, the

01:14:42

Pope allows her to have Mass. That consistency is what's not in existence anymore amongst

01:14:55

Roman Catholics and amongst evangelicals as well. The question really is, is this a

01:15:02

Gospel issue or is it not? If it is a Gospel issue, then the

01:15:08

Gospel is the answer. Politically minded folks, they don't even want to go there.

01:15:15

You never talk about politics and religion. This does touch upon other relevant factors in how we interact.

01:15:32

There's a consistency that apologia is the home of end abortion now.

01:15:39

We also did not close down during COVID. There's a consistency in our view of the relationship between church and state, sphere of sovereignty.

01:15:54

Our church is an openly post -millennial theonomic congregation.

01:16:05

From our perspective, these individuals, Jeff can sit there and look at these legislators and say, as a minister of the

01:16:16

Gospel of Jesus Christ, Christ has been seated and is enthroned in heaven. He has revealed his will on these matters.

01:16:23

You, as an individual, and as a person who has been placed in your position by God in his sovereignty, will be judged by him for what you do in light of what he has revealed is his will.

01:16:42

That's not what I was raised with. That's not what most fundamentalist Baptists are raised with.

01:16:48

I think we have an automatic fear of, in some sense, crossing over that line.

01:17:07

I'm glad those conversations are taking place. I wish they were taking place in a little better format.

01:17:14

I'm thankful, for example, for those that are interested. I'm thankful in the back and forth that has actually taken place between Scott Anuel of G3 and GBTS and Doug Wilson.

01:17:29

They've been writing articles back and forth, and that's the way it should be.

01:17:36

Memes, and little snarky videos, and using all sorts of descriptions and language that Christians shouldn't be using anyways, really has caused me to have deep concerns about people on both sides of this issue.

01:17:57

It needs to be handled in a mature fashion. And, hey,

01:18:03

I'm sure you'll be there unless you're manning the Iron Sharpens Iron booth and refuse to leave, or can't get past the long line at the men's room.

01:18:20

But on Thursday, before the G3 begins on Friday, Oh, really?

01:18:27

I thought the G3 began on Thursday. Well, the pre -conference on Thursday.

01:18:36

It's usually on Wednesday. I thought it was Thursday. Okay, we'll confirm that later.

01:18:43

Yeah, we'll find out one way or the other. Anyways, well, I need to know that because I need to drive from Carlisle or Lancaster, one of the two places, to Atlanta.

01:18:53

So that's not that bad a drive, so I can make it. But anyway, the pre -conference that GBTS is sponsoring is on the church and the state, eschatology, law, the whole nine yards.

01:19:10

And I'm the only post -millennialist at GBTS. Well, as a good post -millennialist, you should say, for now.

01:19:24

Hi, folks. We've got

01:19:33

Hal Lindsey sticking in your eye, folks. Yeah, okay, all right.

01:19:41

That's going to end up on YouTube somewhere. Anyway, my specific topic that I've been asked, because it's going to be a situation where each one of us makes presentations, and then there's going to be

01:19:54

Q &A panels where we hash all this stuff out. But interestingly enough, what they've asked me to address is state overreach, when the state violates severe sovereignty and tries to tell the church what to do in worship and meeting and things like that.

01:20:14

And the reason they asked me to do that was because of my role in helping the

01:20:21

Navy SEALs with their medical exemption requests that they made, which, of course, the government did not grant, because that's not why the government was doing it.

01:20:35

The regime wanted to get rid of any Navy SEALs that would be anything less than absolutely compliant to whatever they told them to do, even if it was wrong.

01:20:46

So that's really what was going on there. But the religious exemption statement that the

01:20:53

SEALs submitted to the government, I wrote. Wow. Really?

01:20:59

Yeah. Wow. Jeff met with them, and then he came back.

01:21:08

And this is how things work at Apology of Church. You want some insight, some backroom insight here?

01:21:16

Jeff flies back from this meeting with all these SEAL leaders, and he says,

01:21:22

I've promised them that we will help them with this, this, and this, and with a written statement laying out all this stuff.

01:21:33

And I said, and when do they need that? This was, I think, on Saturday, Friday or Saturday.

01:21:40

Wow. And he said they need it Monday. And so I'm sitting there going, okay, so what are you going to do about that?

01:21:53

And this is just sort of how it works. It's sort of like, well, you're the one that does the writing.

01:22:00

So it's like, okay, all right, I'll get to that right away, right now.

01:22:06

And so I didn't have a whole lot of time to make it quite as fancy as I would like to have made it. But yeah,

01:22:12

I'm the one that actually wrote that. And so that's why I was asked to address that.

01:22:19

That will still lead us into this whole discussion, I think, hopefully, anyways. But, yeah, that's coming up at G3.

01:22:26

So hopefully those coming will attend that pre -conference and will find it to be useful and helpful.

01:22:34

One of the things, before I go to a listener question, that is most problematic with Sean Hannity's view is that it really removes from the equation the only reason you should be opposed to abortion is that it's murder.

01:22:53

And if you're giving these exceptions, you are saying it is no longer murder. Like, for instance, there was at one time a prevalent

01:23:02

Roman Catholic view. I don't know how prevalent it is today. It probably barely exists. But there was a view where the marriage bed, when you had intimacy with your spouse, it was for the sole purpose of procreation.

01:23:20

I don't think that we as citizens of the

01:23:26

United States can impose that kind of a rule on our citizens.

01:23:32

But when it comes to murdering the result of the sexual union, that we can say.

01:23:39

And all these exceptions that Sean Hannity provides, he's really redefining what abortion is. Right, right.

01:23:46

Well, and we have less and less reason for this as time goes by.

01:23:52

Because I have said many times that we live in a day. Because we can trace an opposition to abortion back to the

01:24:01

Didache, the early church was very clear on the subject.

01:24:07

And they didn't even understand much of what we understand biologically of what was going on in the process and everything else.

01:24:16

We live in a day where, you know, back in the, what was it, in the 70s when

01:24:22

Life magazine did that incredible expose. And the first real, you know, in -the -womb full -color photography.

01:24:31

People were just blown away. And much of the reversal of the gains that the pro -abortion movement had made were resisted by the fact that starting with, well, even with my children.

01:24:49

So it's been a while now. We had ultrasounds of our kids. So that was coming up on 40 years ago now.

01:24:56

It's about when it started becoming really prevalent. And so most everyone has grown up with ultrasound pictures of their siblings on the refrigerator door.

01:25:08

Knowing, you know, that's in mommy's belly and there's the hands and the feet and so on and so forth.

01:25:14

That's changed everything. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that that is a human person with an absolutely unique genetic makeup that will never be created again.

01:25:30

We understand the process. It's still very mysterious to us in that we don't actually know how it works.

01:25:38

It is still beyond our science. But the reality of the life of the unborn child is now just not even arguable.

01:25:52

And I've heard Jeff say a number of times that he, in his conversations, sees more and more that people are now not even arguing that point anymore.

01:26:04

And are literally just saying, yeah, but it doesn't have rights because of where it is.

01:26:11

Right. In fact, Jeff on this program said every woman that he has confronted at an abortion clinic admitted she was killing a baby.

01:26:20

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they know. They know exactly what's going on. And when you then turn that around and then make application, you know, the parallels to the abolition of slavery and et cetera, et cetera.

01:26:36

Yeah, there isn't any way to win this argument from the other side, but they're not winning it by arguing it.

01:26:42

They're winning it by not arguing it. That's the whole problem there. They're winning by the education system and by shutting down the conversation, shutting down the discussion and literally dumbing everything down.

01:27:00

It is astonishing how little the citizens of the

01:27:06

United States not only know about their own history, even recent history, but how little they know about the reality of the life in the womb, how little they know about the reality of gender, sexuality.

01:27:22

All they've got is a surface level. This makes me feel good from YouTube mentality.

01:27:30

And look, any society that falls into that level of moral and ethical and intellectual decay is probably a society that will be replaced by another society in the not too distant future.

01:27:47

And when it all comes apart, we have to be the ones with the flashlights, you know, once the electricity goes out, shining the way toward how to get back to not normalcy, not get back to where we once were, but to where we need to be as creatures made in the image of God.

01:28:12

That's one of the differences in my thinking now, where you're not thinking about, well, we're just going to punch our ticket and escape out of here.

01:28:21

We're just going to boom, we're gone. No, one of the biggest thoughts that was relevant in my eschatological shift was

01:28:32

Doug Wilson saying, why is it that evangelicals never think about their great grandchildren?

01:28:39

And it's true. But now that I have a 13 year old granddaughter,

01:28:44

I am thinking about great grandchildren and my great great grandchildren. And what am

01:28:51

I doing to so into them and to invest into them?

01:28:57

And and that's that changes everything really does. Yeah, I would like to if I ever had the unlikely opportunity to speak with Sean Hannity.

01:29:06

When he gives these exceptions in his own philosophy of rape, incest and the life of the mother, why he believes that would be acceptable to punish the child because of those things and murder the child.

01:29:26

It reminds me. I don't know how this line and this scene ever got into this

01:29:32

Hollywood movie. One of my favorite movies is Rob Roy. I don't know if you ever saw it. Oh, yeah.

01:29:37

There's a there's a scene where Rob Roy portrayed by Liam Neeson. And I always wonder, it's a movie about how wonderful Scotland is.

01:29:47

You don't think I've seen it 47 ,000 times. Come on, man.

01:29:53

Well, Braveheart had if Braveheart hadn't come out, come out the same year. Rob Roy would have racked up all the

01:29:59

Academy Awards. Yeah, I loved Rob. Well, Liam Neeson. And I always wondered what he was thinking when he said this line, because I don't know where he is politically.

01:30:08

But he's portraying Rob Roy. And he's sitting there with his wife when she finally has the courage to tell him that the child she is carrying is not his.

01:30:19

But the biological child of a rapist, she said,

01:30:25

I wanted to go out into the river and root it out with a stick.

01:30:32

And Rob Roy says to her, why murder the child when it's the father who should be punished?

01:30:40

And I would say that very thing to Sean Hannity if I ever had the opportunity. Why do you think that is acceptable to murder a child for any reason?

01:30:50

I guess you don't think it's murder. Then why are you even opposed to it for any reason if it's not murder? Why do you say you believe in the sanctity of life?

01:30:57

You're not thinking it through. And in fact, Jeff will be very straightforward in saying, look, you can't reason logically on this if you don't also specifically and directly say that rape should be a capital crime.

01:31:17

Rape should be a capital crime. And people say, well, wait a minute. How can that be consistent with a with a life affirming perspective?

01:31:27

Well, there's actually a pastor in Houston working on a debate, possibly next year, on the death penalty.

01:31:38

But in reality, if you don't follow the biblical understanding of why there was a death penalty in law, even pre -Mosaic law, then you won't understand what life is.

01:31:53

And in fact, that's where Francis has jumped ship. Because when he changed the universal

01:32:00

Catholic catechism, and when he has said, as Pope, in changing the teaching of the church, that capital punishment is untenable.

01:32:09

Not only has he completely contradicted the entire traditional history of the

01:32:15

Roman Catholic Church, but he's completely missed the reason why God instituted capital punishment was because of the sanctity of human life.

01:32:25

Right, but you got to look on the bright side that that keeps Protestants safer forever. Well, I don't know.

01:32:36

And of course, I've had Roman Catholics tell me, oh, no, no, no. He may have changed the catechism. That's not actually a change of the teaching of the church.

01:32:43

Right, right. That's Robertson. Jennis would agree with what you just said. Right, right. And I'm like, really?

01:32:49

So when the next pope comes along, and the next pope and the next pope, and you've got three or four of them in a row that have all confirmed the same thing, you're going to stand against that?

01:32:59

Okay, yeah. All right. That papacy thing ain't working out too well for you here. All right. Let me go to some listener questions.

01:33:07

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, where I lived for 10 years.

01:33:13

CJ says, I know that it is a sin for Christians, or anyone else for that matter, to outright lie, but is it a sin when a political candidate purses his words and phrases in a way where things that he does not want to voluntarily put in the public are somewhat obscured in order to win an election?

01:33:40

Like, for instance, if he's asked about his beliefs on abortion, for rape, incest, and the life of the mother, then he would have to, if he was going to not sin, be honest and tell that truth of what his opinion is.

01:33:57

But if no one asks him, would it be wrong for him to obscure that, just as people do in many other areas of life?

01:34:06

In fact, we all likely do during things like job interviews. We don't want to lie if we're asked about a certain area of our life, but we don't necessarily want to voluntarily reveal other things.

01:34:18

Yeah, I could understand that. Like, for instance, if you see a photograph of the employer's wife on his desk, you're not going to say, wow, your wife is much more attractive than you are.

01:34:28

How did you ever land her? I mean, that's incredible. But if you could, go on. No, you would.

01:34:37

I bet you did. I bet you do. You may have wondered why you didn't get some of those big promotions, but that's because you couldn't stop yourself.

01:34:53

I know you too well, Chris. It's just like, that would pop into your mind, and it's like, hey.

01:35:01

Yeah, yeah. Okay. The issue of the question. The pragmatism, basically, is the question.

01:35:07

Yeah. Yeah, I know. And that's why I would never run for office, personally. I don't have the capacity to parse my language in that way.

01:35:19

And there does come a point, and I loathe to be dogmatic as to exactly where that point is, but there does come a point where you simply can't avoid being honest about your ultimate authorities in your life.

01:35:44

It is a reflection on the society that a good, godly man would want to hide his godliness.

01:35:55

And I think that line is probably a whole lot clearer than we'd like to think it is.

01:36:06

And I would say, especially in this area, I just don't see how you can parse your words.

01:36:15

So see how you can. When is it ever a good thing to appease the wicked while disobeying

01:36:23

God? Right. You know, what happened in Pennsylvania, could we just step back a second and go look what the result has been?

01:36:32

Have you seen pictures of the senator in his shorts and stuff, standing there with the senators in their suits?

01:36:42

And have the people of Pennsylvania been properly represented by Fetterman or what's going on?

01:36:49

I mean, that was judgment on the state, let's just be honest.

01:36:56

It really was. And I'm looking at the same thing. We've got a governor in Arizona now who, you know, there's still court cases going on.

01:37:10

And it was a stolen election. It was as corrupt as anything that's ever happened in Chicago.

01:37:17

No question about it. But she is, I have no respect for her.

01:37:22

She is an airhead. She's just holding the place. Other people are running the state into the ground.

01:37:29

Same thing with Joe Biden. Other people are running the nation into the ground while he's eating ice cream and wondering which day of the week it is.

01:37:37

So that's judgment. That's just judgment upon the nation. It really is. We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who said,

01:37:46

Sean Hannity claims to believe in God, very strongly so, and yet his words would betray that he is not trusting in God because of circumstances on this earth that he fears.

01:37:58

Do you agree? Well, my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, but his background is

01:38:05

Roman Catholicism, isn't it? Yes, but he did leave for a season and was a member of the actual church where you had your first Muslim debate with Hamza Abdul Malik in Syosset, but that was under a different pastor and a different, really an entirely different congregation.

01:38:26

Yeah, I don't know what his current theology is or anything like that, but it seems to me like it is primarily of the same kind of pragmatic evangelicalism that is reflected in the

01:38:49

Roman Catholic schizophrenia where it has just become acceptable in the

01:38:55

Roman Catholic Church in the United States, if you're a politician, to go, oh, well, personally this, but this is what

01:39:01

I will actually promote in society. And that kind of schizophrenia, look, the other side just smiles and goes, we understand, and knows that you're not a threat and never will be.

01:39:17

So, it sounds like where he's coming from, like I said, I stopped listening to him a long time ago, and I don't watch, you know, once in a while the

01:39:30

TV would still be on after Tucker went off and I'd see something, but especially with all the stuff that happened in the last election and all,

01:39:36

I just, I got sort of tired of it, so I didn't, I don't know how to answer where he is right now.

01:39:42

By the way, Sean, if you ever do get this recording, we would love to have you on the show to give a response and perhaps even have a friendly debate with Dr.

01:39:52

White if you would like to do that. We would love for you to be on to perhaps further clarify your own position.

01:40:00

We have, let's see here, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, and Ronald says,

01:40:10

I can't for the life of me figure out how someone like Sean Hannity would believe that taking a moderate view against abortion would do anything but perpetuate an ongoing cycle of candidates being chosen in primaries who are moderate and weak on abortion, so therefore the abortion mill murder cycle will continue when you keep desiring moderates to run for office.

01:40:44

And that seems to be the case all across the spectrum on all the subjects. The idea that you can appease the woke mob by modifying your position, you know, it's really not working out well in anything, on any subject, whether it be immigration or abortion or all the cadre of LGBTQ plus insanity.

01:41:13

That's not getting us anywhere, and that's not how the prophets did anything.

01:41:20

Of course, you know, Jeremiah got thrown in a pit, other people got sawn in half, so if you're going to be overly prophetically clear, just be prepared to follow them in what happened in their own experiences,

01:41:33

I suppose. But again, this does get us back to the question that the entire

01:41:43

Christian nationalism conversation raises, and that is, what is relationship, what is severe sovereignty, what's the relationship between church and state, what is our relationship, what is the necessity for the church or individual

01:42:00

Christians to give testimony to the state as to how judgment is going to come?

01:42:12

That was not something we ever talked about in decades past, I'll be honest.

01:42:19

And now, all of a sudden, everyone's like, oh yes, we need to be telling the magistrates what their duties are, and I'm like, we weren't talking about that only 10 years ago.

01:42:31

Well, okay, there were, you know who was talking about that 10 years ago? 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago?

01:42:39

Francis Schaeffer and Rush Dimme. Right. They were. And now, all of a sudden, there's a bunch of folks who are literally acting like, oh yeah, we've always believed that, that's what we need to be doing.

01:42:54

And I'm like, come on, I've been around a little while now, and no, we weren't talking about this before at all.

01:43:04

So, I can be thankful for that. You know, when

01:43:10

Grace Community Church reopened during the COVID stuff, and then took a stand and said, we were wrong to have done that, that first sermon that John MacArthur preached,

01:43:25

I'm sitting here listening going, really? Really?

01:43:33

One of those told -you -so moments? It was an I -told -you -so moment, and it's not like, okay, now you need to admit that we've been right about this all along.

01:43:45

No, it was, I'm just really thankful that the Lord has brought circumstances about, and people are going, man,

01:43:53

I really got to think this through. And, you know, I had a dear, dear, dear brother,

01:43:59

I won't go into names, but when I preached my sermon about my embracing post -millennialism, his first comment to me when we talked afterwards, a couple days later, was, oh, drat, now

01:44:14

I have to think all this stuff through, too. And that was, I think that's what's happened with a lot of people, is that for a long time, we just sort of bopped along with our traditions, and then 2020 came along, and now we're saying after 2020, and we have to go, wow, we've really got to think this through.

01:44:34

And the same thing with the abortion debate, is Ro gets struck down, and all of a sudden we're seeing just how dedicated the culture of death is to death itself, and how many of our fellow citizens, this isn't just, this isn't a preference poll, this isn't something, this is how you view life.

01:45:00

And people who are already worshipping at the altar of the culture of death are going to continue worshipping at the altar of the culture of death, and this is its central sacrament.

01:45:12

So it has become a religious commitment on their part, and the only way to change that is to change hearts and minds.

01:45:21

It's a gospel issue. It has to be. I just want to quick read a very brief comment by one of my listeners who's also become a very dear friend of mine,

01:45:32

Jason Contino, who is the pastor of Harborview Christian Church in Port Jefferson, Long Island, a dear

01:45:42

Reformed Baptist brother. Jason Contino says, and he's referring to those that are full -throated anti -abortionists, it's not a death sentence for candidates, abortion is a death sentence for babies.

01:46:05

I mean, very succinctly put, and obvious, and using

01:46:11

Sean Hannity's own words back at him on that. Right. Very true.

01:46:17

But again, the pragmatist—but I'm even left going, okay, so let's say you win the election because you waffle on this and you don't take a strong stand.

01:46:31

What do you do then? Are you not now limited as to what you can actually do in regards to abortion?

01:46:41

Are you now limited to what you said during the election, and therefore you can't continue to push these things forward?

01:46:50

Or are we just keeping the status quo so that you have the continual debate and the managing of things, but not the actual abolition of it?

01:47:03

Because I've really come to start wondering, do these people want to see it abolished, or they just want to see it regulated and continue forever?

01:47:15

That's where the slavery issue comes in. Do you just want slavery to be moderated and limited, or do you want it abolished?

01:47:26

Which is it going to be? That's the question. Amen. We have to go to our final break, and when we come back we'll have

01:47:31

Cindy from Findlay, Ohio's question -slash -statement aired.

01:47:38

The email address for your question, if you want to get in line, is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:47:45

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

01:47:51

We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:48:10

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

01:48:18

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

01:48:31

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

01:48:44

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

01:48:52

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

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01:49:06

Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

01:49:11

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

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Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.

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Order online at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

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Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.

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That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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That's securecomgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureCom Group, joining

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Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

01:52:44

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

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We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

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We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Christ. This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

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Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

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Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

01:53:50

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to HopeReformedLI .net.

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That's HopeReformedLI .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:55:15

Welcome back. Cindy in Finley, Ohio, says, As one who was given an ultimatum,

01:55:22

I left a marriage because of pressure from my husband to abort his child. May I encourage all those listening who feel they are being compassionate to women who feel they have no choice but to murder their child, please, your compassion is seriously misplaced.

01:55:40

You must be gentle but brutally honest with the mother that murder is never an option.

01:55:46

Please never accommodate the fast and easy solution. My daughter and her children have been a supreme joy.

01:55:52

Never support someone's argument for abortion, which was obviously a comment, not a question.

01:55:58

Do you have any response to that, Dr. White? No, it's just that there are so many that could testify the same thing.

01:56:07

Their voices are almost never heard. It is so sad. If we actually had journalists still in this nation, those voices would be heard.

01:56:19

But one of the things that really, to me, demonstrates how far we've gone is we don't have journalists.

01:56:26

We don't have a free press. We just have Pravda. Pravda just closed up shop in Russia and moved to New York City.

01:56:35

Very quickly answer the question of a listener who is asking off topic.

01:56:41

Joseph in Gardner, Massachusetts. I wanted to know if Dr. White has any plans to debate Oneness Pentecostal Jerry Lynn Hayes.

01:56:50

Not heard of him. Okay. There you go, Joseph. I think you're a first -time questioner, so send me your full mailing address and you'll get a free

01:56:57

New American Standard Bible. Well, I want you now to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to these ongoing statements by very well -known and highly respected

01:57:12

Sean Hannity of Fox News. Well, we as Christians are faced with the question of pragmatism, and I think as we have seen our culture crashing into astonishing self -destructive behavior, completely throwing the concepts of justice and man being created in the image of God right out the window, and the results that we're seeing, the mutilation of children, and the elevation of these things to moral goods.

01:57:49

Obviously, the idea of the myth of neutrality, the idea that we can actually play games in politics, hopefully by now we've realized that does not work.

01:57:57

And it's not going to work. And has led to disaster. And so the question is, how do we deal with this?

01:58:05

Where do we go now? And I think this is a good example of having to speak the truth and recognize the only way to change this society, which has all the information it needs in the world, the only way to change this society is to do so by means of the gospel.

01:58:24

And so it's not a matter of moderating, it's a matter of being even clearer and then having the right answer for the real problem, which is changing hearts and minds.

01:58:36

Yes, and in fact, Sean Hannity, according to his own profession, he is not compromising his beliefs.

01:58:45

He actually believes in those exceptions to abortion, being the rape, incest, and the life of the mother.

01:58:54

And he is just clearly wrong if he believes that abortion is murder.

01:58:59

Otherwise, he shouldn't even be opposing it. And we just want to remind everybody about the upcoming

01:59:08

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society conference featuring

01:59:13

Dr. James R. White coming up in September. For more details, go to midatlanticreformation .org,

01:59:21

midatlanticreformation .org, and click on events. And don't forget about the G3 conference,

01:59:27

September 21st through the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia, on the sovereignty of God, where Dr. White is speaking.

01:59:33

Go to g3men .org, g3men .org, and use promo code G3ISIR for a 30 % discount.

01:59:41

That's promo code G3ISIR. I want to thank you so much, Dr. White, for doing such a superb job on the show, as you always do.

01:59:48

I want to thank our listeners, especially those who took the time to write. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ has a far greater