December 14, 2018 Show with Rusty Reed on “Pastoring a Small Church in a Bi-Vocational Ministry (The Advantages, Disadvantages & Challenges)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 14th day of December 2018.

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Before I introduce my guest and our subject today, I just wanted to say that I learned last

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Wednesday night, this past Wednesday, from Jonathan Reisinger, a fellow member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, that his uncle

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John G. Reisinger, a key figure in the resurgence of the doctrines of sovereign grace amongst

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Baptists in the mid 20th century, is likely not going to be experiencing another

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Christmas here on Earth and is expected to be joining his dearly departed wife and his brother

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Ernie Reisinger, founder of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and another 20th century trailblazer for sovereign grace amongst

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Baptists who are awaiting John's entrance into eternity with them, where he will be welcomed with open arms by his

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Lord, God, Savior, King, and friend, Christ Jesus, who has been John's number one passion for many decades.

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John Reisinger's teaching and preaching and fellowship at the annual Bunyan Conferences in Pennsylvania played a central role in the development of my own understanding of the

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Holy Scriptures during the formative days when I was cutting my teeth on the doctrines of grace as a new

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Christian in the 1980s and the late 1980s and early 1990s.

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My years attending the John Bunyan Conference every year, accompanied by my late wife

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Julie's pastor, the late Don Blend, who became a very precious friend to me, have forged memories for me that I will treasure and cherish forever.

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I am so honored to have been given the privilege to interview John Reisinger several times on Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio and have received from him a beautifully written endorsement for this program.

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I would appreciate it if you would please pray for John Reisinger as he prepares to depart this earth after a very long, faithful, and fruitful life of service to his

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King, and please pray for the Reisinger family as well, because obviously they will be going through a period of grief and mourning after John does leave this earth, but obviously a period of mourning that will be mixed with joy, because they will certainly know with great confidence where John is for eternity with Christ.

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Well, now I'd like to introduce to you, with my raspy voice due to a cold that suddenly sprang upon me last night, a return of a cold that I thought that I had completely gotten rid of, today we have as our guest for the very first time on Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Rusty Reed.

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He is the pastor of Reformation Church in Baker, Louisiana, formerly called Friendship Baptist Church, which is a multi -ethnic congregation seeking to minister to the

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North Baton Rouge, Louisiana area, emphasizing expository preaching and a return to the

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Bible. Rusty Reed is also a speaker at the upcoming Deep South Founders Conference, which you have heard being advertised on this program for the last couple of weeks, and today we are going to be addressing the theme,

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Pastoring a Small Church in a Bivocational Ministry, the Advantages, Disadvantages, and Challenges, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Rusty Reed.

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Thank you, Chris, so happy to be with you today. Well, why don't you tell our listeners something a little bit more about Reformation Church of Baker, Louisiana.

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Okay, well, as you mentioned earlier, it started off as Friendship Baptist Church.

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It's been here since the 60s in this area of Baker, Brownsfield is a local community around here.

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That's where I grew up, and so I grew up really in the shadow of this church. I knew all the people who originally started this church, and it had always been a small church.

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In the early 90s, it declined all through the 90s, really, and by the time

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I came as pastor in the year 2000, I preached my first sermon here as pastor,

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Easter Sunday, 2000, it was very small indeed. As a matter of fact, when we came here, there were about nine people, nine members of this church, and actually when they voted me in, four of them left.

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So it started out that our ministry here started out with very humble beginnings, about six or seven people, and I've been here for 18 years.

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This is my 18th year pastoring here, and about 2003,

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I came under the influence of books and articles and sermons that were reformed in nature, and I went to a local pastor, a friend of mine who was a reformed pastor in his own right, and he began to explain these things to me, and of course

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I studied so -called Calvinism in college and never gave it much thought, but what happened to me was when

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I came here, I started preaching. I made a commitment for some reason. I just decided

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I didn't know exactly how I was going to do things, but I decided that I would just preach through the Bible, and I started in John, and I didn't get very far in John before I had some serious questions.

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So I called my pastor friend. He began to share with me some things, and we began to reform theologically in 2003.

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By the time 2003 was over, we'd reformed the church, and we've been reformed ever since.

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Praise God. Well, if anybody would like more details on Reformation Church, the church that we just mentioned there, you can...

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it's Reformation Church of Baker, Louisiana. You can go to Friendship Baptist I... I'm sorry,

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Friendship Baptist LA for Louisiana. Friendship Baptist LA, and that website is under construction, because obviously even the name has changed.

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So, but at least that's a starting point for you. Friendship Baptist LA, the former name of Reformation Church.

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And what we normally do on Iron Trip and Zion Radio Rusty when we have a very first -time guest on the program, is we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony.

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So I would like you to let our listeners know what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Yes, well,

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I was saved as a young child. Are you still there,

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Chris? Do I still have you? Yes, I'm still here. Okay. Yeah, I came to faith young in life.

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I was about 12 years old. I attended a local church here, and the pastor preached solid expository sermons, and for whatever reason,

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I listened, and I just came under the notion, I just became aware that if I died apart from Christ that I was going to...

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I was going to be lost, and that just became a burden on my life.

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And one Sunday, I did what I had seen so many people do at the end of the service.

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I walked down the aisle. I actually got my brother, my older brother, to walk down with me, because I was scared to walk by myself.

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And when I got to the preacher, he said, what do you need? I said, I need Jesus. I need to accept

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Christ. And so he shared with me the gospel and prayed with me, and I accepted

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Christ. And my family, I grew up in a Christian family. My mother and my father were both committed

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Christians, always have been, and most of my family were committed

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Christians. And so I had a great background to learn about Christ, and we went to a good church that taught the

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Bible. So I grew up. Of course, when I got to an older age, there were times when

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I was tempted and strayed, and felt that I knew a little bit more than my parents knew.

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But by the grace of God, He preserved me in faith.

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And when I was in my senior year of high school, I decided that I was going to go to Louisiana College and study to become a minister, and so I did.

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Although I have to say that when I graduated college,

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I had a major in religious studies and psychology, I was a bit disillusioned with ministry.

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I had been working as a part -time youth minister and music leader in various places all through my college career.

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Frankly, I saw a part of that that just served to disillusion me in ministry.

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I just didn't want to be that kind of minister.

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I loathe the image of the stereotypical preacher with platitudes and a person who's kind of fake, and it began to grow in me.

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Actually, it became an issue for me, and so I decided that I wasn't going to become a minister after all. I was going to go and get a master's degree in psychology.

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And I came home and eventually met the woman that I was going to marry and fell in love.

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And she was a super devoted Christian and just a huge influence on my life.

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And we were attending a church in Greenwood Springs, which is a suburb of Baton Rouge, and the pastor there was a good friend, and he was a blessing to us, and he kept on asking me to preach or to serve as a

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Bible -studying leader, teacher, and things like that. And I kept resisting that until finally

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I gave in and took a Sunday school class, and my wife and I taught that Sunday school class.

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And eventually my wife just looked at me and said, do you think it's possible that you're supposed to be a preacher?

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And I said, yeah, I guess it is possible. And so we began to look for opportunities to minister.

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I became an interim pastor at a local church in Baton Rouge and served there for a year, and then this little church called me up and asked me if I would come and consider preaching in view of a call.

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So I did that, and lo and behold they asked me to be the pastor. That's where I've been all this time.

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Praise God. Well, now let us know something about the Deep South Founders Conference where you are going to be speaking.

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You're on the roster there, and I will, God willing, also be there manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio January 24th through the 26th at the

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Bethlehem Baptist Church of Laurel, Mississippi. Tell us about this conference. Well, I became involved in the

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Founders ministry early on. As soon as we began to reform the church here,

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I knew about a pastor in Clinton, Louisiana.

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His name is Fred Malone, Dr. Fred Malone. Oh yeah, I've had Fred on the program several times, and I think his book, his monumental book,

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The Baptism of Believers Alone, I believe is the title of it. Fred is a phenomenal guy.

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Yeah, yeah. He made an impression on me early on because he's just so intelligent and such a sweet man.

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And I've always been the kind of guy who just, I don't know, maybe I have more nerves and sense.

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So I called him. I didn't know him from Adam, and he didn't know, certainly didn't know me. And so I called him up and told him who

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I was and told him that I wanted to start a local Founders fraternity here in this area.

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And so I met with him and a few other folks,

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Pastor Joe Neeson and some others, and we did. And so that's kind of how

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I got involved with the Founders. And then, of course, going to the

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Founders, Deep South Founders conferences. I know Dr.

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Kerry Kimbrell. I grew up in the same area, and he's a little older than me, but we grew up in the same area, so I knew him, and he is the host.

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Dr. Kimbrell is the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church and is the host of the

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Deep South Founders Conference. So I've been going there for several years, and last year they asked me to be on the board.

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I have to say that at every conference they nominate board members and then vote those board members in, and I found out that there's another

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Pastor Rusty in Louisiana. His name is Rusty Grant, a wonderful man in Monroe, Louisiana.

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And so there were two Rustys that were nominated for the board of the

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Deep South Founders Conference for 2018 and 2019, and Rusty later on told me that he voted for me.

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Rusty Grant voted for me, and I voted for him, but I guess for some reason he chose me this time. And so anyway, if you're on the board,

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I'm sure Dr. Kimbrell explained this, but if you're on the board and you're a pastor attending the conference, eventually they'll ask you to preach, and so yeah,

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I'm gonna preach this year. Of course, in all of our

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Deep South Founders Conferences, we're going through the 1689

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London Baptist Concession, and this year the conference is on sanctification, and the keynote speaker is

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Conrad Mbewe. Actually, I know his name is pronounced Mbewe, since I've known him since 1995.

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Well, even my friend who is one of your,

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I don't know how to put this, I guess one of your spiritual mentors, even though you don't know him personally, you know of his ministry and have benefited by it, but even

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, you will hear him mispronounce Dr. Mbewe's name in an ad during this program.

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Okay, well look, if James White did it, then I feel like I'm in good company.

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And I know... Go ahead. So he's going to be speaking, and you know,

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I can't help but miss the humor here. I looked at the schedule, and Friday night, of course he's the keynote speaker, so he'll speak first, and so I, Rusty Reed of North Baton Rouge, am following the

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Spurgeon of Alpaca. I don't even know if you can call me the

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Spurgeon of Bronzefield, but that's what we're talking about. Well, I can't even...

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Some of my listeners might be tired of me repeating this all the time, but I cannot say enough about the phenomenal gifts of Conrad Mbewe, his preaching gifts.

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I keep repeating it, and I'm not exaggerating it when I say it. I think he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet

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Earth. Of course, in regard to whom I have heard preach, I've not heard everybody in the world preach, but...

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And I am not... I am not meaning that in any disrespect to many other men

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I love, who I have benefited from, including pastors that I've had, but Conrad is just...

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There's something very unique about him that I would urge anyone to get in a train, plane, or automobile, and hear him preach whenever they hear that he is preaching anywhere within traveling distance, because it will be something that you will always remember.

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No doubt about it. He's a powerful preacher, and you know, of course, it doesn't hurt that he's got that wonderful accent.

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Yeah, from Kibwata Baptist Church, Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and the Chancellor of the

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African Christian University. Right, right. So you'll have that wonderful accent, and then after that on Friday night, you'll have the redneck, half -redneck

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Caucasian from Louisiana coming. Well, brother, this is an interesting theme.

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We have addressed this at least once before, but as far as pastoring a small church, and of course you've expanded the theme, pastoring a small church, and by vocational ministry, the advantages, disadvantages, challenges, but I don't think that you can be guilty of overkill, necessarily, by repeating this subject, because it is a very prominent issue, especially when churches are preaching the truth.

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When churches are taking a stand for truth, that very often means that you are taking a very unpopular stand in this day and age, and when there are many churches all over the country in most communities to choose from, people will very often choose the bigger, more professionally appearing church in regard to the music ministry.

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There are churches with music ministries that rival Broadway, theater, and so on.

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So when a church is taking a stand for the truth in spite of the fact that it may cost the members or prevent them from numeric growth,

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I think that that is something that should be addressed on this program, especially since I know many

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Reformed churches that are very small churches. Like, for instance, you know, people will refer to my congregation where I'm a member as a huge church, and I chuckle because I don't think that we have, we don't even have 250 people on the

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Sunday morning, but for a Reformed Baptist Church, that's pretty big. Yeah, it is. Absolutely right.

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And when we became a Reformed Church, a Reformed Baptist Church in 2003, we were no under, we were under no illusions.

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We understood that that would probably mean that we would never grow to be a very big church.

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Of course, we may have never been a very big church anyway with me as the pastor, but you're absolutely right.

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There are not many large Reformed congregations out there, you know.

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There are not many, you know, John MacArthur's and those kind of large churches out there.

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And typically, and if you could respond to this before we get into more of the main content that you want to address, but there are some automatic reactions that many people have when they hear about a very small church.

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They will very often draw the wrong conclusion that these people do not have a burden for evangelism.

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That's obviously why they're small. They're not passionate and concerned about seeing the lost get saved.

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Otherwise, they would be bursting through the walls. And then you have the other extreme, where you have very small churches that, maybe that way because of the stereotype that I just mentioned, they may be guilty of fulfilling that stereotype.

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Or they may be so cultic in their isolationist mentality and so rigid about things that should be secondary or tertiary issues on the ladder of importance of belief and practice.

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Or they might not want a lot of newcomers coming in because they don't want a conflict to arise that may challenge or change things that they believe are important.

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I happen to know of one church that became a hyper -preterist church.

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And a pastor was invited in to take over the mantle from the pastor that was leaving.

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And even though the pastor that was leaving knew that his predecessor, or should I say his successor, was not a hyper -preterist, he at one time discipled this man and welcomed him.

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First of all, he urged him to take his place there even though he did not agree with him on the hyper -preterist issue.

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And my friend, somewhat hesitatingly and reluctantly, took him up on the offer.

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He was being used of God to grow that church. And there were, I think, somewhere in the neighborhoods between 10 and 20 new families coming and they were all driven out because they were not hyper -preterists.

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So, I mean, you have all different reasons why a church is small, but I'm assuming that your church is not small because you are lackadaisical or uncaring about the law.

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So just pick up where I left off there. Yeah, well, I think you're right. I think certainly there are probably churches that are small because they're not trying to be large.

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For whatever reason they, like you said, they have a cultic attitude, they're not warm, they're not friendly, and there are probably some

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Reformed churches that are that way. I'm sad to think about it, but they're probably,

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I guess we've all heard the anecdotes of Reformed pastors who basically read

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Calvin's Institutes for sermons, and their sermons are dry and very intellectual and things like that, and of course those kinds of churches are not going to grow.

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On the other hand, obviously I grew up in the 80s and very much in the middle of the church growth movement, and even in Southern Baptist churches, the move to the megachurch was predominant in the 80s and 90s.

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You know, everybody wanted to go to the church with the big gym and all of the, you know, nowadays even the coffee shops and all that kind of stuff, and in my day it was with the best youth groups and the best music and all these kind of things, and you're right about how elaborate those things can be.

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And so there's a balance there, and I think a small church, especially a small

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Reformed church, has to somehow or another balance sound preaching, sound teaching, but also stay in touch with the reality that your people have families, they have children, they have lives, they have needs.

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I think the key to that is to be real. And I don't pretend to be an expert on ecclesiology or Reformed churches, but the way that I've done things, the way that my wife and I committed to minister way back when we first started, was we decided that we were just going to be real, that we were just going to be who we were.

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And God has blessed us to be able to do that. Sometimes that's been a disadvantage for us because people say, you know,

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I'm a human being who makes mistakes and those kind of things, and sometimes it's been a real big advantage where people have come up to me and said, you know, one thing that I appreciate about you is that you're a person that I can identify with.

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You're a real person. And so I try to balance those things. I try to teach people that everybody, you don't have to be a

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PhD theologian to understand the precious truths of God's Word, and that's who

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I am. I am not James White. I don't have the intellect of James White or R .C.

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Sproul, but praise God, I can use those resources that they've given us to learn more about the

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Word of God and to teach everyday, average people who work regular jobs and live regular lives and raise regular families the deep things of the

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Word of God. And so that's what we try to do for, like I say, for 18 years. Just be real and contact people where they live and try to teach them the truth.

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Amen. By the way, since you brought up ecclesiology, I can't help but to promote a future show that I'm having on the very subject of Baptist ecclesiology and polity.

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On January 4th, God willing, we're gonna have Dr. Michael Haken on the program to address that issue.

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Oh yeah? Wow, that's wonderful. Yeah, I'll be listening to that. We're going to our first station break.

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest today, Rusty Reid. By the way,

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I wanted to let you know that my friend, Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, wants to know if you are a

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Rusty Reid that will not break. Yeah, I hope so.

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I know this much, that even if I'm bruised, the Lord Jesus won't break me. Amen.

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Well, if you have any questions for Rusty Reid on pastoring a small church in a bivocational ministry, the advantages, disadvantages, and challenges, please give us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Hello, my name is

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James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

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Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

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Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California, was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

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It has been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary, offering a full program of leading to the

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Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the

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Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life, death, and resurrection, and that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune

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God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

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Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?

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You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Hi, Phil Johnson here.

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I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, so I'm delighted that my friend

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Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the G3 conference, where I'll be joining

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James White, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.

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Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.

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Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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That's g3conference .com. See you there. I'm Dr.

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Gary Kimbrell, pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

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In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

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Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

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What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

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As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

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The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

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If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

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In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838

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Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.

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Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

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Thank you. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

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And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

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All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

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Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

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Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

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For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. My name is

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

37:46

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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As most of you know who listen to this show, Mike Gadosh underwent very serious and dangerous open -heart surgery very recently and during his time laid up in the hospital and laid up being or should

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I say laid up recovering from the surgery which we all thank God was successful. They did experience a financial setback, a very serious financial setback, so please help replenish that by doing as much if not all of your

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Now we are back with our discussion with Rusty Reed, Rusty Reed who is the pastor of Reformation Church in Baker, Louisiana which is in the northern area of Baton Rouge, Louisiana and we are discussing pastoring a small church in a bivocational ministry the advantages disadvantages and challenges.

41:19

If you'd like to join us on the air the question our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com

41:26

and why don't we start with some of the advantages people might not think that there are any advantages of it being in a small church but I think that there clearly are.

41:35

I have throughout my Christian life had friends who were pastors of very small churches churches that are very small comparatively to other churches across the

41:48

United States and there was an obvious tighter -knit family of believers in those churches.

41:57

These were churches where everybody literally knew everybody where they seemed to have a lot more fun at fellowship gatherings and enjoy their company and so I mean that the family aspect of what a congregation should be is really strengthened when the church is smaller, isn't it?

42:20

Yeah, there's no doubt, and look, the fact of the matter is America's churches are getting smaller.

42:28

The Hartford Institute for Religious Research published findings even as far back as 2016 that America's churches were growing in size, in number, but not rather they were growing in number but not in size.

42:45

In other words, there are more churches out there but they're smaller churches and that same research stated that the majority of US churches have fewer than a hundred people in attendance so that's 58 % of churches in America had less than 100 people and there was some more research put out by Tom Rainer that indicated that 9 out of 10 churches in America had less than 350 people.

43:20

So the fact of the matter is there are lots of small churches out there and there are reasons for that,

43:29

I think. Some of the advantages to a small church is, like you said, you know, there's more contact, more personal involvement, people know each other.

43:48

I can't tell you the amount of times people have told me that they they like going to a small church because they felt like the pastor knew their names, because they knew everybody in the church, and of course some people that's not an advantage, but for the vast majority of people it is an advantage.

44:10

And of course the disadvantages for a small church is obviously there are less resources.

44:16

The resources are less to pay a staff, you have less resources to build buildings, and sadly there are less resources oftentimes to do ministry.

44:32

And certainly ministering for 18 years in a small church is the way I have. I can identify with that.

44:39

You become, you know, accustomed, if not adept, at taking the small resources you have financially and doing the best that you can do with them.

44:53

But I'm here to tell you that, I mean, you can do some wonderful things even with very limited resources.

45:01

You just have to be creative, you have to really put your mind to it, and you have to pray a lot.

45:10

And of course at Reformation Church we've been blessed to have some wonderfully talented people who just committed their resources and their lives to do some wonderful things.

45:24

I can, you know, one of the most, one of my favorite books, you were talking about books a while ago, in my opinion second greatest book ever written, is

45:36

Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan.

45:42

And I have always tried to get people to read Pilgrim's Progress because I know the impact that it'll make on their lives.

45:52

And so a while back we had a lady in our church who found a play based on Pilgrim's Progress, and she said, why don't we do a play?

46:03

Wow. Yeah, so we did. I mean, it was not a small production. You had to play five parts in it, right?

46:12

No, I was just the narrator, thankfully. It was a musical, too, so yeah, it was limited in what

46:19

I could do as far as that's concerned. But we had a wonderful time doing that play, and I mean it was way beyond what we as a church of less than 100 people should have been able to do.

46:33

But we were able to do it, God was gracious to us, and it had a huge impact not only on our community, but on our church.

46:44

Another thing we did was we decided we wanted to do something on Halloween, which we'd never done before.

46:54

We stayed away from Halloween, but we had a member who had a house in a subdivision with lots of children, lots of people in it, and so we decided to do what we call a reverse haunted house, which was instead of, you walk through this thing, but instead of getting scared, you got the gospel message.

47:18

We had different booths that were set up that graphically displayed aspects of the gospel.

47:24

Wow. Yeah, and that was a huge thing.

47:31

We had people that just, for a little church, we had more than a hundred people, maybe even 200 people, who came to that and just created quite a stir.

47:42

So we've been blessed a few things that probably are beyond the scope of what you might think that we would be able to do.

47:49

God's really blessed us with that kind of stuff. And it's a lot of fun, it's a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun too.

47:56

I have a friend who is now in eternity with Christ. His name is

48:03

Dr. Robert J. Cameron. He was an Orthodox Presbyterian minister, actually before that he was a

48:10

Presbyterian Church in America minister, and before that he was a Reformed Episcopalian minister, but he believed that the church should start really aggressively being involved in a church shrinkage movement.

48:27

He was uncomfortable with churches that just allowed themselves to grow and grow and grow and grow without planting other churches.

48:38

He obviously did not want to shrink a church by unnecessarily driving people out or preventing people from coming in, but he believed that churches had more of a responsibility to plant.

48:51

And one of the main reasons that he had this passion and view is that he believed that it is extremely more difficult for larger churches to adequately shepherd and disciple and discipline megachurches, very large churches.

49:14

And the smaller the church is, typically the more adequately a shepherd or shepherds, plural, can discipline and disciple and shepherd those people.

49:28

What would you have to say about that? I agree, and I would add to that that, in my humble opinion, we need to, and I think it's going to happen no matter what, we need to shift churches from being personality -based, that is, based around a pastor or some other popular figure, and by no means am

49:56

I disparaging these people. I mean, you know, this is, you know, John, the John Pipers, John McArthur's, R .T.

50:03

Sproul's, Steve Lawson's of the world, that may have a huge impact on my life, but too often people think, you know, if you really want to have a successful church, you've got to have some figure like those guys behind it.

50:20

I think we need to go to a more smaller model for our churches, not centered around a personality, but centered around godly, steadfast, faithful elders who, on a regular basis, teach the truths of God's Word and, more importantly, or just as importantly, apply them to the lives of the people in their church.

50:49

You can't do that. An elder can't do that if he doesn't know the people in this church. I'll tell you who impacted me here on that, and that's

51:00

Capitol Hill Baptist Church, Mark Dever. We switched at Friendship, it was an elder system of government in the church.

51:16

We had a plurality of elders who were equal in authority but different in function, and Mark Dever is the one who influenced me there when

51:30

I read his book from years ago, Nine Marks of a

51:36

Healthy Church, and that's where I started picking up on that. And so I was able to go to Capitol Hill Baptist to a weekend retreat type thing for pastors, and we got to observe how they did things, and I went to an elders meeting that he had, and I watched how—this was a big church, of course, and they had several elders, maybe more than 10, 15—but these guys were so passionate about the people.

52:07

Each one—they went through the list of members in their church. They cited the names, and they prayed for them individually, and each one of them had something to comment,

52:18

I suppose. I can't remember, but I suppose that maybe they had divided the membership up and were taking care of each one of the members like that.

52:28

But the point is, they knew their members, they were passionate about their members. It wasn't just that they were preaching these awesome sermons, which they were, but it was that they were taking pastoral—pastoring down to the personal level.

52:45

That's what a church really is, is people who need to be pastored, need to be shepherded by godly men, and that's what

52:55

I think—that's the direction I think we ought to go. The thing about small church, though,

53:02

Chris, is, you know, as I said, you're limiting your resources, and I think that's where the bivocational part comes in.

53:11

Sometimes, and I think more increasingly, there's going to be a need for a bivocational pastoral situation.

53:21

In fact, let's pick up on the bivocational aspect when we return from our midway break.

53:26

We have to go to a midway break right now. I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence when you're too deep into the subject. This is our longer -than -normal break, because Grace Life Radio and 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle, because they have to localize

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Iron Shepherds Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida, and therefore they air their own commercials and public service announcements during this break.

53:49

So please use this time wisely and write down questions for our guest Rusty Reid on pastoring a small church, but also please write down the information that's provided by our advertisers, because the more frequently and more successfully that you patronize my advertisers, the more likely they will remain my advertisers, and that means the more likely

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I will remain on the air, because I rely upon the advertising dollars that my sponsors provide in order to exist.

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So please write down the information provided by my advertisers and patronize them as frequently as possible.

54:30

And send in those questions to rustyreid at chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Tired of box store

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Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best. I think that's what it's called.

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This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

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G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

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It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

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It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight for me.

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So tons of stuff going on. Yeah. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

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And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me,

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled, Consider the

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Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

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Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

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Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

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In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. My name is

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

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01:02:56

Hello, I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, Senior Pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join

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Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference, Thursday, January 24th through Saturday, January 26th, here in Laurel.

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If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.

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Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.

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Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa, and I, for one, believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

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For more details, go to DeepSouthFounders .com. That's DeepSouthFounders .com.

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I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners,

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January 24th through January 26th. Thank you. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRVS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

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It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary, offering a full program of courses leading to the

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Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRVS Theological Seminary?

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You'll find more information at IRVSseminary .org. That's IRVSseminary .org, two

01:06:50

S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

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Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

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That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And don't forget that today is the final day of CVBBS .com's

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This is the final day of the store of the, not of the store, of the sale. So if you want to take advantage of that sale, go to CVBBS .com

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And please always remember to tell Todd and Patty Jennings the owners of CVBBS .com that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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Also, I want to make sure that you are aware of some important announcements, of some important events

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I should say, that are coming up. First of all, the Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon is coming up.

01:09:25

This is a free event for men in ministry leadership. This is not open to ladies.

01:09:34

It is strictly a men's ministry luncheon and it's going to be held,

01:09:40

God willing, Thursday January 3rd 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:09:50

The speakers include, or should I say the speaker at this, there's only one speaker, the speaker at this luncheon is

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Dr. Tony Costa, the Professor of Apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:10:05

His message is going to be on the theme, The Meaninglessness of Life and the Destruction of Western Society Without God.

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You are not only going to get a free lunch and free admission to hear

01:10:19

Dr. Tony Costa speak, but you are also going to be getting free books donated by almost every major Christian publisher in the

01:10:28

United States and the United Kingdom who have been donating to us books, free books, to give away to pastors every year going all the way back to the 1990s when

01:10:40

I began these luncheons through the inspiration of my sweet precious late wife,

01:10:46

Julie, whose idea was originally to treat pastors to an annual

01:10:52

Christmas luncheon and forego the Christmas gift exchange that she and I had in order to afford to do that, and this luncheon grew so big that we had to get corporate sponsorship for it, and we do have the help of our dear friends at Battery Depot .com,

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LinbrookBaptist .org, and NASBible .com, the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible, who have helped us maintain this ever -growing luncheon every year.

01:11:23

So if you'd like to attend the luncheon, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:11:29

and put luncheon in the subject line. That's Thursday, January 3rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the

01:11:34

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, absolutely free of charge, and there is nothing for sale there at all.

01:11:43

There's no hidden agenda or ulterior motives. This is just purely to bless men in ministry leadership with a fun time of relaxation, great food, a powerful message from a gifted speaker like Dr.

01:11:59

Tony Costa, and to get free books. I know pastors love free books, and you'll be getting a lot of them, probably two heavy sacks filled with brand -new free books.

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These are not donated from a discount bin somewhere that have been used or damaged.

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These are brand -new books that I actually select all the titles that we give away at all of the luncheons.

01:12:21

So please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Dr. Tony Costa is sticking around this area after the luncheon, and he is going to be speaking at the

01:12:34

Enola First Church of God in nearby Enola, Pennsylvania, where my friend

01:12:39

Pastor George Jensen serves as the pastor, and I'm very excited about this.

01:12:45

It's a conference I helped arrange with Pastor Jensen, and I hope that as many of you will attend this as possible.

01:12:53

In fact, this is not exclusively for men, as the pastor's luncheon is.

01:13:00

This is open to everyone, man, woman, or child, Christian or non -Christian.

01:13:07

We would love to see you there to hear Dr. Tony Costa speak on Contending for the Faith, The Church in a

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Postmodern World. That's Friday, January 4th through Sunday, January 6th at the

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Enola First Church of God. For more details on attending this conference, you can call 717 -732 -4253, 717 -732 -4253, which is the phone number for the

01:13:32

Enola First Church of God, or you could go to their website, enolacog .com,

01:13:37

e -n -o -l -a -c -o -g .com, or you could email me as well at ChrisArnson at gmail .com

01:13:45

and say, I want to know more about the Tony Costa Seminar or Enola First Church of God event, however you want to phrase it, just put that in the subject line, and I'll make sure

01:13:55

I get back to you. Later on in that month, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

01:14:02

College Park, Georgia, a nearby suburb, and the roster is very long and very impressive as always.

01:14:09

That's going to be Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th at the

01:14:15

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia. They are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to be there.

01:14:23

I strongly urge you to sign up, not only for attendance, but for an exhibitor's booth, just like I will be manning for the third year in a row, to take advantage of that crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people.

01:14:35

If you have a church, parachurch, ministry, business, professional practice, or special event that you want to promote in that crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people.

01:14:44

The speakers this January include Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

01:14:52

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel, and Stephen J.

01:14:58

Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college that was founded by the late R .C.

01:15:04

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster. For more details go to G3conference .com,

01:15:11

G3conference .com, and as I said, I strongly urge you to not only register for attendance, but register for an exhibitor's booth.

01:15:20

In my last heard from them, they had less than 10 spots left for exhibitors booths, so if you want one

01:15:28

I would get on that immediately. Then coming up after that same month, later on in the month, another conference where I will be manning an exhibitors booth.

01:15:40

This time it will be a first -time experience for me, and that's the conference that we have been talking about today, the

01:15:47

Deep South Founders Conference. That's going to be held from the 24th of January through the 26th of January on the theme of sanctification that will be held at the

01:16:00

Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. I've never even been in Mississippi before in my life, let alone for a

01:16:06

Bible conference, so I'm looking forward to this. These speakers include our guests today,

01:16:11

Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and the keynote speaker, as we mentioned earlier, is

01:16:18

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Cobuata Baptist Church in Saka Zambia, Africa, and Chancellor of African Christian University.

01:16:25

I think he's the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth today. If you want to attend the

01:16:31

Deep South Founders Conference, go to deepsouthfounders .com, deepsouthfounders .com.

01:16:38

Last but not least, if you love Iron Trap and Zion Radio, you look forward to the guests and topics that we have every day, many of which are never heard anywhere else.

01:16:49

You love sharing the free mp3s with your family, friends, and loved ones, and acquaintances, and business colleagues.

01:16:57

You just can't wait to hear the show every day, whether live or in recorded fashion.

01:17:03

Then please, if that is the case, please don't let us disappear from the airwaves. Please help us financially as much as you can and as frequently as you can by going to ironsharponsironradio .com,

01:17:14

click support, then click click to donate now. We are heading into another dark period of financial problems.

01:17:22

We can see that there are already bills mounting up that we have not paid, some of which are already late.

01:17:30

If you could please help us more than ever before by going to ironsharponsironradio .com,

01:17:36

click support, then click click to donate now. You'll be able to donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

01:17:43

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01:17:51

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01:18:04

and never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to ironsharponsironradio .com. Those two things are commands of God.

01:18:11

Providing for church and home, providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, then we plead with you to help us remain on the air, if indeed that is your desire that we remain on the air.

01:18:26

Go to ironsharponsironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. If you'd like to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:18:35

and put advertising in the subject line and I will help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe on ironsharponsironradio .com.

01:18:43

You don't have to believe identically with me, you just need to be promoting something that is compatible with what we believe.

01:18:50

Also, if you are without a church home and you're not prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God, so please rectify that situation.

01:18:58

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I have helped listeners of this program all over the world to find churches nearby them, so I can help you too,

01:19:09

God willing. So send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church home or something similar in the subject line.

01:19:16

And now we are back to our guest today, Rusty Reed. He is pastor of Reformation Church in Baker, Louisiana, a suburb of the

01:19:27

North Baton Rouge, Louisiana area. We are discussing pastoring a small church and a bivocational ministry.

01:19:35

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. If you'd like to join us with a question, that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:19:43

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:19:52

USA. We are now back to our discussion,

01:19:59

Rusty, and before the break you are just about to enter into one of the key aspects of our theme, a bivocational ministry.

01:20:08

There are even some churches and ministries and organizations, of course they are a minority in this day and age, but there are some who actually believe that that is the only way a church can be biblically faithful, is to have either a group of elders or a singular minister or pastor who is not paid.

01:20:31

That is a minority view, but I don't believe that is the position you're taking. You're talking about being bivocational by means of necessity, correct?

01:20:41

That's correct. Yeah, I would say the vast majority of churches and Christians think, when they think of church, they think of a church that has a vocational pastor, a full -time, sometimes they call it pastor.

01:20:59

I'm not a fan of that terminology, full -time, part -time pastor. I don't think there's such a thing as a part -time pastor.

01:21:06

Whether you're bivocational or not, you're going to be a full -time pastor.

01:21:12

There's no way around it. I have been a bivocational pastor ever since we started.

01:21:19

Like I said, when we started a friendship in 2000, the church was very small.

01:21:25

There's no way they could have supported a pastor full -time with a family.

01:21:34

So I've always had a job. Now there have been times in the ministry when

01:21:41

I was less bivocational, when we had more financial resources, and I was able to commit more time to ministry full -time, or at least more of my time to ministry.

01:21:59

But even now, I work other jobs outside of the church. I cut grass.

01:22:06

I've managed a brick company for many years. I'm not doing that anymore, but I did that for a long time.

01:22:13

I sold insulation. So there are other things that I do, and I do think that not only is that a viable and acceptable model for pastoral ministry,

01:22:29

I think that it is advantageous in many cases to ministry.

01:22:35

I think there are lots of advantages to bivocational ministry.

01:22:43

Obviously, the greatest and probably most obvious advantage to bivocational ministry is that it allows a small church to have a pastor.

01:22:59

It allows a small church to exist, really. In the Baton Rouge area,

01:23:05

I've seen churches who've lost a lot of their membership for various reasons.

01:23:11

It gets to the point where they were so small they couldn't afford to have a full -time pastoral staff, and so they just closed the doors.

01:23:22

Bivocational ministry allows for churches that are smaller to exist, so that's an obvious advantage.

01:23:28

But there are other advantages, too, I think. If you have a bivocational ministry, you have more resources, more money, in particular, to spend on things like missions.

01:23:42

You can have a wider, more diverse staff. You may pay them much less.

01:23:48

Obviously, if you have a bivocational pastor, then you're not paying him a full -time salary, so it's not as large a salary, so the pastor is not occupying as much of the budget space, so you have more money to pay more staff, perhaps.

01:24:07

If you have a bivocational ministry, then you have more resources to commit to ministry in the community.

01:24:16

But there are also advantages, I think, to both the pastor and the congregants.

01:24:22

For example, in my case, I found that being a bivocational has given me more freedom.

01:24:28

It's kind of broken me out of the church growth mold that I grew up in, where you kind of had to focus on attracting people, and if you're focused on attracting people, you're very careful about what you say, and you're very careful about what kind of music you have, and you're very careful about what you're teaching.

01:24:50

So being a bivocational pastor, I think, has freed me up to speak more frankly and more biblically, and not worry about the fact that, you know, people in large numbers aren't coming to hear that.

01:25:10

I think also it helps, being bivocational helps the pastor avoid the trap of possibly becoming a professional preacher.

01:25:25

And again, this is a big theme in my life. It may not be in other people's lives, but it is mine. I didn't want to be that.

01:25:32

I never wanted to be that kind of guy, that kind of preacher. John Piper, I'm sure you're aware of the book that he wrote,

01:25:41

Brothers Were Not Professionals, had an impact on my life. I didn't want to be a professional pastor, and so I think that being bivocational has kind of helped me avoid that trap.

01:25:54

And there are advantages, but there are also disadvantages to being a bivocational pastor.

01:26:02

The diluting of your time is the one that immediately springs to mind, whereas pastors that are fully supported financially by their congregations and do not need to be bivocational have much more time for study, to prepare sermons, and also to minister to those in need, to be under shepherds in the flock.

01:26:23

So that would be the immediate one that pops into my mind. There's no doubt, and people ask me all the time, you know, what's the worst thing about being a bivocational pastor.

01:26:33

And I'm quick to tell them, guilt. I, you know, you have to fight against this feeling of guilt that whenever I'm studying, reading a book, preparing for a sermon, you know, in the back of my mind a lot of times there's a guilt.

01:26:52

You know, what are you doing? It's the middle of the day, it's two o 'clock in the afternoon, and here you are reading a book.

01:26:58

Why aren't you making a sale? Why aren't you doing something productive and profitable?

01:27:05

On the other hand, when I'm working, maybe cutting grass, a yard that I'm getting paid to cut,

01:27:13

I feel guilty because I am not studying more. So yeah, it's kind of, you're caught in between a lot of times, and I'm afraid, and I've heard a lot from bivocational pastors, this sense of guilt.

01:27:27

No matter what they're doing, they feel like they ought to be doing something else. And there are helps for that.

01:27:34

I can tell you right now, the advent of podcasts, I'm not a big tech guy, but podcasting has helped me tremendously.

01:27:44

Even when I'm working, I can listen to your show and other sermons.

01:27:52

I listen to eight or ten sermons a day to help me, not just to help me in my

01:28:00

Christian walk, but also to help prepare for sermons. So that's a big blessing for me, and it's good.

01:28:10

I know Dr. James White, he listens to books that he's recorded on his...

01:28:20

I don't know exactly how he does that, but however he does that, he's often able to listen to books and he's able to study and prepare for the divine and other things like that.

01:28:32

So technology is a good thing. It's helpful in that respect. One thing that I don't want any of our listeners to walk away with thinking is that some churches and some elders and deacons might be more emboldened to be cheap when it comes to what they, or how they financially support their pastors.

01:28:59

Because as you already mentioned, you are not taking this position as a doctrinal position that is one that one must adhere to to be biblically faithful like a tiny minority of Christians do, who believe that it's actually a sin for a pastor to be fully financially supported by the congregation.

01:29:21

I don't agree with that at all, but if you're in a church that does not have that doctrinal position that I just mentioned, and you believe a pastor should be paid, then it really has grieved me over the years when

01:29:38

I have... because one of the reasons I mentioned earlier that my wife came up with the idea of starting a pastor's luncheon and that we stopped giving each other

01:29:50

Christmas gifts in order to afford it was because she recognized that I have an extraordinarily high percentage, an unusually high percentage of friends that are pastors because I've been involved in Christian radio in one way or another most of my adult life.

01:30:08

And I've gotten to know a lot of pastors and it grieves me when I see and hear about the fact that how they abuse their pastors by paying them a wage, or however you want to say it, by financially supporting them to such a low level that they're really living basically on either borderline poverty or poverty.

01:30:33

And I know on some of those circumstances it is unnecessary that they're being paid that low.

01:30:39

It's almost as if, in fact it's not just almost as if, it's truly the way some people think.

01:30:46

That hey, a guy who is making a corporation millions of dollars deserves to get paid a very high wage.

01:30:58

A guy that's working hard with a jackhammer or you know who's sweating in physical labor every day, that person also deserves to get paid a good wage.

01:31:13

But a pastor, I mean come on, he studies for a message that he gives once or twice a week and you know some people are so ignorant of the role of a pastor that they think that's all he does.

01:31:25

But they think well I'm not gonna give this guy, I don't want to give this guy more money than just the basic bare minimums of survival.

01:31:35

Well that's just, that's sinful and wrong isn't it? Yeah, and I've seen the studies that say that a third of pastors in America are in more financial stress than the average number of, than the average

01:31:55

American family. So yeah, there's a doubt that churches are not living up to the biblical mandate to take care of their pastors.

01:32:03

I mean, Paul is very clear that he had every right to expect the church to support him.

01:32:11

The only reason that sometimes he did not allow churches to support him was when he chose, for whatever reason, to support himself, probably to keep the church from being burdened, overly burdened.

01:32:28

But there's no doubt that Christians in churches, local churches, ought to take care of their pastors.

01:32:36

They ought to support their pastors and too often they don't. And that's a sad state.

01:32:43

I've heard of pastors who can't afford medical care and you know, pastors with families who can't afford medical care for the children and that's a sad thing to think about the

01:33:00

Church of God who won't take care of their pastor. Well we're going to our final station break right now.

01:33:08

If you'd like to join us in the air of the question, please do it quickly before we run out of time. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

01:33:14

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:33:24

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away,

01:33:30

God willing we'll be right back after these messages. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am

01:33:37

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:33:44

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

01:33:50

Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

01:33:57

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:34:05

That's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

01:34:12

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:34:25

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:34:31

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

01:34:42

TV program entitled Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org

01:34:48

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

01:34:56

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. James White here, co -founder of Alpha Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:35:19

I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

01:35:31

A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

01:35:44

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details go to G3conference .com

01:35:51

that's G3conference .com Hello, I'm Dr.

01:36:03

Kerry Kimbrell, senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program will join

01:36:12

Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference, Thursday, January 24th through Saturday, January 26th, here in Laurel.

01:36:21

If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.

01:36:28

Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.

01:36:39

Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa, and I for one believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

01:36:50

For more details go to DeepSouthFounders .com that's DeepSouthFounders .com.

01:36:57

I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners,

01:37:04

January 24th through January 26th. Thank you. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:37:12

Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:37:18

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:37:24

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

01:37:32

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

01:37:38

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Waldeman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:37:45

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit

01:37:52

LinbrookBaptist .org that's LinbrookBaptist .org Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:38:10

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:38:19

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:38:27

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youth in need all over the country and around the world.

01:38:41

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:38:48

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit

01:39:00

Liyfc .org that's Liyfc .org

01:39:07

My name is

01:39:14

Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

01:39:20

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:39:26

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

01:39:32

It's called New Covenant Church NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

01:39:39

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc .nyc.

01:39:47

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:39:53

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

01:40:03

New Covenant Church NYC. Again their information can be found at www .ncc

01:40:10

.nyc. Have a great day. I'm Dr.

01:40:17

Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

01:40:26

In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called

01:40:32

Kabanana who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

01:40:38

What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

01:40:43

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

01:40:49

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

01:40:55

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

01:41:05

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church 838

01:41:13

Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.

01:41:20

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com.

01:41:30

Thank you. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

01:41:38

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

01:41:44

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:41:50

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled, Consider the

01:41:56

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

01:42:04

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

01:42:10

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:42:16

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

01:42:30

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

01:42:40

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

01:42:46

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

01:42:53

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

01:43:01

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:43:07

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

01:43:24

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you. There are four ways you can help.

01:43:31

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Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:43:57

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

01:44:04

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.

01:44:33

Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent, biblically faithful teachers on their lineup, sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

01:44:44

If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to firstloveradio .org.

01:44:53

They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness, such as Dr.

01:45:02

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01:45:11

Firstloveradio .org also live streams my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program daily.

01:45:17

Please stick around on firstloveradio .org after Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace.

01:45:28

Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back, this is

01:45:41

Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the entire show has been and will continue to be

01:45:46

Rusty Reed, pastor of Reformation Church in Baker, Louisiana, and also speaker at the upcoming

01:45:54

Deep South Founders Conference. He is speaking today on the theme Pastoring a

01:46:00

Small Church in a Bivocational Ministry, The Advantages, Disadvantages, and Challenges, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

01:46:08

chrisarnzen at gmail .com and Pastor Rusty, we have an anonymous lister who says,

01:46:16

I know that many Reformed churches are opposed to breaking up families where churches are being attended by parents who send their children off to larger churches that have larger youth groups and services for children.

01:46:34

Do you have any problem with this practice or is this something that you can accept?

01:46:41

Well, yeah, I do have a problem with that practice. I think that going to church, attendance at a local church should be a family affair, and I think it boils down to asking yourself the question, what's church about?

01:47:03

Why are you going to church? Why would you want to break the family up and just send the children or young people off to another church?

01:47:14

I wouldn't forbid it, and I have to admit that there have probably been cases in which people at our church have done that, although it's been rare, but I wouldn't be in favor of it.

01:47:29

You know, you think that sometimes there might be individual cases where that might be something more acceptable to you.

01:47:38

I'll give you an example. Let's say a couple are members of a large church that has some flourishing youth ministry or ministry to teens, and it is not one that is unfortunately imitating the model that many of these megachurches have with youth groups that are completely shallow and devoid of biblical content or at least biblical depth, and they are really nothing more than glorified babysitters that allow, you know, teenagers to enjoy themselves and have fun, and they have

01:48:21

Christian rock concerts and all those kinds of things, and sporting activities and all that, and I'm not against those kind of activities.

01:48:30

Well, I have problems with Christian rock concerts. I used to love them as a new single

01:48:36

Christian, but I'm having more and more difficulty with that venue, but there's nothing wrong with recreation and activity when it's in its proper place, not during a worship service, but where you have this family that might be going to a church that has that, and then the parents say, you know, we want to go to the smaller church because we really have been profoundly blessed by the teaching and preaching of the pastor there, and where it would be if they were to remove the children or the teenagers from the other groups, it would be taking away from them something that they were already experiencing.

01:49:16

You follow what I'm saying? I mean, do you think that there can be issues like that that would give you less of a problem?

01:49:25

Yeah, sure. I mean, there are always, you know, circumstances and situations. You have to take these things on a case -by -case basis, and you know,

01:49:35

I would have to sit down and talk to a mom and dad and find out what the situation was before making a recommendation.

01:49:42

And like I said, we don't have any rules for that or against that, but you know, again, it's a matter of what, you know, understanding what the local church is and what the local church does.

01:50:01

And too often we have, especially people who, like me, grew up as a fed, in that church growth time, we have a very...we

01:50:15

have an understanding of local church that is very different, I think, than what the

01:50:21

Apostles had in mind for local church. And I understand that, you know, this is not the first century or anything like that, and things change, and that's fine, but I do think we need to have a biblical, a biblically -rooted understanding of ecclesiology in general and local church ministry in particular.

01:50:46

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, do you think that it is ever

01:50:53

God's...let's see, I'm trying to...he has a grammatical error here...is

01:51:01

it ever God's...if it is ever God's will that a church remain small and yet still remain in good standing with Him, not as a form of chastisement or some other reason, but do you think that God will ever bless a church by keeping it small?

01:51:24

Well, I certainly hope so, because friendship is still our mainstay in this law.

01:51:31

Yeah, you know, I guess another way of asking it more understandably would be, is a small church always a sign of God's disproval upon that congregation and a sign of chastisement?

01:51:53

No, no, and again, we have to get back to understanding what a local church is. It's really not about size.

01:52:00

It's not about whether it's large or small, it's about what the local church does. Are you faithfully preaching and teaching

01:52:09

God's Word? Are you faithfully applying God's Word to people's lives?

01:52:16

Do you have a biblical model of pastoring and a biblical model of church attendance and church membership?

01:52:26

And those are the key things, and size is extraneous.

01:52:32

It's not a function of what the church is. Size is just something that all too often is just a way things are, you know, and so we shouldn't plan, like, you know,

01:52:46

I want to have a church with 350 people, and so we're going to do things that are going to enable us to have a church of 350 people.

01:52:55

On the other hand, you shouldn't plan to have a church that's got no more than 100 people, you know.

01:53:01

That should not be a consideration, I don't think. Well, you know, another advantage of a bivocational pastor just popped in my head because of what we're talking about right now.

01:53:12

I think bivocational men who are willing and interested in being that are going to be of great use to the body of Christ when a church perhaps is planted, and before it has an opportunity to numerically grow and subsequently financially grow to pay a full -time minister, it's great to have this resource available that there are men of God out there that are willing to start off anyway as being bivocational.

01:53:43

That's a great point, and of course we should be more, and I think, praise God, increasingly we are, as Christians in America, becoming more involved in church planting, and the fact of the matter is that, you know, you're not going to be able to do a lot of church planting unless you're willing to do some bivocational ministry.

01:54:05

In many senses, when we came to friendship, then it was friendship, we had in our minds that we were planting a new church, that essentially the church here was dead for practical purposes.

01:54:17

They didn't even know how to go about selecting a pastor. They had me and another pastor that kind of,

01:54:25

I mean, he's a good friend of mine now, my next -door neighbor, as a matter of fact, and I teased him that there was a beauty contest, and I got one more vote than he did, and I won.

01:54:35

But the idea of not, you know,

01:54:42

I'm not going to, there's no way I'm going to be a bivocational pastor that's going to limit the amount of pastors that you can go on.

01:54:51

And I do think, Chris, that one of the disadvantages to being a bivocational pastor is that all too often, bivocational pastors struggle with the feeling that they are a second -class pastor, that they're not a real pastor, that they haven't really made the big time, you know, and that's,

01:55:12

I think, unfortunate, and not a biblical ideal that we have divided ministry up in that way.

01:55:25

There's no sense in which a bivocational pastor ought to think that he is a second -class pastor and that he won't have made it to the big show until he gets a full -time church.

01:55:43

I think that's unfortunate. I know when I was coming out of college and, you know, about to go to seminary and go that route, that what you did was you went as a seminary student, you went to a small church, and small churches kind of fulfilled the function of giving ministries to these preacher students until they got a real job, you know, and I think that's a poor way of looking at it.

01:56:12

Well, I want you to take about two and a half minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:56:21

Okay, well, I want to say that in America today, small church ministry is alive and well, and it is a vital part of God's plan for His church, and I think that people ought not be afraid to be involved in a small church ministry.

01:56:49

I think there's a lot of blessing that can come out of that. And to bivocational pastors,

01:56:57

I would want to encourage them to tell them that they're not second -class pastors, that they can have long, fulfilling ministry and really make a difference in ministry to the people of God even though they are working in an outside job.

01:57:22

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners remember that if you want to attend the

01:57:27

Deep South Founders Conference, where our guest today, Rusty Reed, will be one of the speakers alongside of Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and Dr.

01:57:39

Conrad Mbewe of Kabwatha Baptist Church, Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and Chancellor of the

01:57:44

African Christian University, you can go to this conference by registering at deepsouthfounders .com,

01:57:55

deepsouthfounders .com, and I hope to see you there because, as I said, I will be there for the very first time manning an exhibitor's booth for Arnie and Sharpen's Iron Radio, God willing, and I am looking forward with great anticipation to being there for the very first time in Mississippi ever in all of my 56 years of life.

01:58:13

I'd like to make sure you get some fried catfish. Oh yeah, well I love fried catfish already. I've had it at Cajun restaurants and other places, even up north, but I would love to have the real thing.

01:58:24

And do you have any contact information, because I know that your website is under construction and it still has the old name of your church as the

01:58:33

URL, so how would our listeners get in contact with you? Yeah, thanks for that.

01:58:39

They can contact, of course, we do a podcast under Friendship Baptist Church as well, and our address here is 10011

01:58:51

Comeet Drive, that's C -O -M -I -T -E Drive in Baker, Louisiana, and our phone number is 225 -261 -4639, and so we would love for anybody to call or reach out to us, and of course, if they can't get to us through that, we have a

01:59:12

Facebook page, like everybody else does, under Reformation Church, so if they just look up Reformation Church, Baker, Louisiana, on Facebook, they'll be able to find us.

01:59:23

And you can always email me as well at chrisarnson at gmail .com and ask me for Pastor Russi Reed's contact information.

01:59:30

I want to thank you so much for being our guest today. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

01:59:36

I hope you all have a safe, blessed, happy, and God -honoring weekend and Lord's Day, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater