Reformed Baptist & Church of Christ discuss The Sovereignty of God & Total Depravity of Man :: Pt. 2

The Apologetic Dog

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Yeah, I'm trying to think other question I have so your show last week.

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I was kind of in and out I think you and I talked a little bit last week or so Something you said and you try to help me with the right quote

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So I'm not trying to misquote you but you said unless somebody is seeking for God or seeking the truth

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Unless they're seeking after God. They're never going to be able to understand the truth

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Do you remember saying something along those lines? I would say Matthew 6 33 Right.

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No, you know, uh, you know, yeah sick first came God his righteousness and all these things we added to you, right?

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That's right so but am I So I understand that's your verse for but am

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I quoting you rightly or in the ballpark of saying unless you're seeking God You will not understand the truth

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Yeah, I have no problem with that. Just don't put no crazy twist on it But I mean, this is what

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I mean unless a person is Looking wanting God He's not going to find

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God Right. So no, I just make sure I was quoted you correctly So I would like your thoughts

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I think it's in Romans 3 around 10 through 9. I have my hands full I can't turn there quickly, but I'll turn there here in a second.

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I think it's Romans 3 Yeah, 10 through 12 where Paul is quoting from the the

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Psalms Where he basically said there's none good none righteous no one who seeks after God, so What's can you kind of harmonize what you were saying last week with what

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Paul? All right. It says what then are we better than they know and know wise for we have

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Before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are under sin and then in verse 10 as it is written.

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There is none Righteous. No, not one. Okay, if you just pull this out, is that true?

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Is there any righteous? Can you reverse 11 also just so Or did you reverse?

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Well, I want to get to it. But I mean, I'm just trying to break the verse down. It says Verse 10 there is none righteous.

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No, not one Right, and I think that there is some righteous people, but you don't

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Well, so I wouldn't just say that since the Bible says there's none righteous

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I wouldn't and I'm not trying to be mean saying this I wouldn't immediately say but I think there actually are people right now.

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I understand what you're saying I think what that's meaning is when we are born into this world and we we have a different anthropology

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We have a different understanding who man is biblically so that'll kind of come out in this conversation but I would say no the natural man though all men who's

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Simple and all fall short of the glory of God We are not righteous and there's other scriptures that talk about how we're born children wrath and we get in them

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But that's I think the context of Psalm 14 all men

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Naturally rejects God in this state, but go ahead. Okay Well, and what

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I would say what when it's talking about referring he's referring actually to Israel back to Israel's time

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And he says And he says in verse 11, there is none that understand it.

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So do you understand? When I was born like rebellious

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Israel a rebel against God suppressing the truth and unrighteousness, no, I didn't understand Okay Well, how did how did they but how did they get to that state where they didn't understand?

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Because it wouldn't suppress the truth and unrighteousness. Okay, did they always start out that way?

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From birth I would say yes So was there ever a time when Israel did the commandments and followed

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God? When God worked in their heart in their life Ezekiel 36 I would say absolutely something had to happen because they were not seeking

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God They didn't understand Paul is building his case from Romans 1 that all men suppress the truth and you see all these different levels of sin and unrighteousness and That verse that you read right before He says for we have already charged that all and he qualifies the all

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I think you agree with me at this But both Jews and Greeks are under sin

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So those that are under sin, which would be all you're either a Jew or you're a Greek or Gentile There's none righteous.

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No, not one. This is kind of the depravity of man. Perhaps we could talk about That you know

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Yeah, he's getting out here I would say and I think that's key for the next verse when we go to it but in Deuteronomy chapter 11 verse 27

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It says a blessing if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God Which I command you this day and a curse if you will not obey the commandments of the

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Lord your God So could they actually obey God in their own free will?

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So Yeah, okay Number one,

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I would say that there is a unique context with the the do canonical law Right.

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We're looking at Deuteronomy along with Israel. I would say these are God's covenant people. So he's already That's Number one a unique context number two and you don't have to pursue this if you don't want to but I think

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I was in a conversation with you or with or with Trey and You said and then totally correct me if I'm wrong here, but the

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Old Testament has no authority Over you some I'm wondering why you're wanting to ground your argument here in the

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New Testament with using Well, there's a difference between authority and learning from examples, especially

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When the New Testament Romans 3 is actually talking about Israel Okay, I have a question about that.

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And like I said, if you just tell me when you don't want to pursue this So but but but authority would be like Authority would be how do you gain a

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Bible authority for? What you teach in practice on Sunday, why do you use why do you why do you guys meet on Sunday and not on the

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Sabbath? So would you say it's authoritative to love the

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Lord your God with all of your heart soul mind and strength? That's in the New Testament Okay Are you talking about the gospel accounts or are you talking and the epistles to the church?

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Well, I believe the New Testament starts with Matthew, but it's a transition period Right, so it was

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Jesus under the law when he quoted Shimon the second greatest commandment. Yeah, he was born under the law

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Galatians So you would quote Old Testament law to prove that authoritatively am

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I understanding you correctly Well, as I said when he was teaching and brought it in it's actually

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Reinstituted in the New Testament Something Okay, you have to you have to look and see what is brought in and what is it?

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Like for example, do you meet on Sabbath or do you meet on Sunday? Right, so we would approach this probably a little different because when

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I read 2nd Timothy 3 16 17 All God's Word is breathed out as possible for teaching rebuke

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And so the Old Testament is scripture and it's a honest us God breathed and it's still Authoritative this is where we were close to what you said earlier.

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I would say the Old Testament is authoritative Ian giving us moral examples of how we should live our life today because when you read

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Romans 15 or 1st Corinthians 10 Paul is building doctrine on Old Testament principles

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Showing its authority to us in our life. Perhaps you agree with that a little bit more than you know

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We initially well some of it's just Semantics words or whatever, but Did you want me to read verse 12 to I?

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Would love it I mean, I think all of it kind of shows the depravity of man how there's actually no one who seeks after God and yet You you know, your fundamental principle was you you got a search after God if you want to understand the truth, okay, it says

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They are all gone Out of the way now the Bible says they have gone out of the way you say they have they were born out of the way, right,

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I Would say that man loves his sin and as an utter rebellion against God according to Romans chapter 1 well,

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I have no problem with saying that mankind can can become very evil and Wicked we see that in Genesis, but the difference is to with original sins is

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Do you believe that we are guilty? condemned for it I Would I would say 100 % because of our nature we're born children of wrath

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We love sin And so we are earning a wage for ourselves Which Paul later says is going to be death that eternal separation from God so how do we become righteous as far as if if we have no free will and And we can't choose we have to wait for God to do it the people who can you hear me

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All right, the people who do not choose to serve

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God whose fault is it is it their fault? Or is it God's fault?

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So great question. This is something I really try to help honor help explain for people that are asking genuine questions

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And I think you are asking sincerely And I mean this with grace to I'm proud of you for not

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Trying to put on a facade even though you're on your channel. So thank you for that So I would say what you see going on with God and man is

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God is responsible What he wants to do with his creation. He is sovereign. He's gonna put as a glory on display

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I've ground that many places in Scripture old and New Testament. Okay, man is held responsible for what he chooses according to his heart's desire

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So we would say that is compatible With God having overarching purpose in all things that he's working out

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According to the counsel of his will so God's not going to judge man based on his eternal decree

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God is going to judge man on his heart's desire. Oh man's heart correct

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So but but man's heart is totally corrupted wicked, right?

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So guess what that does to all mankind Well, you can damn we stand condemned before a greater.

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Uh -huh We we you're saying we are guilty and condemned but not what we do.

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I remember it was what Adam did Right in Adam. We all died spiritually.

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We don't love the things of God. We were born children of wrath. So as we grow We are going we and fast you have you have a few kids

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And so this is something I think good to think about and you'll probably agree to some point as your kids were growing up Did you have to teach them how to lie or did you have to teach them how to tell the truth and teach them how?

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To share you didn't have to teach them how to be selfish, right? well The Bible says

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Spare the spare the rod hate it the child, right? You know, you may watch translation, okay,

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I guess I go ahead I'm trying to remember where that is Proverbs I knew is in Proverbs, but I can't remember.

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Sorry. We're at Proverbs Would you you know, I'm talking about right? Yeah, I do recall

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David saying that he was born As his mother conceived him it was in sin and we would see these types of principles

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Showing us that even David understood his total depravity even from the womb Well, you you we we kind of jumped on David psalmist psalmist,

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I believe But What I'm getting at The the

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Proverbs says about if you don't discipline your child

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Basically, why would you need to discipline your child? Well, why would you spank them

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So no. Hey, trust me. I don't have kids yet, but there will be spanking one day, but it's because they need

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They don't love They don't love the things that are glorifying to God They need to be shown the way and their rebellious hearts are going to buck up against that So in love right that same proverb talks about that if you love your child, you'll do these things

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But if you hate your child, you won't discipline you'll spoil them, right? Okay Yeah, it says he that spares his rod hateth his son but he that loveth him chases him

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B times let me read the New King James He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly, right?

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Yeah, okay, so my argument is how can a rod

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Beat out his Inside Nature how can that how can that happen?

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Yeah, so you're teaching them discipline because of their rebelliousness and like you said, you know

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Hey wise command for a parent is to raise up their children in the way of the Lord and then perhaps

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They won't depart but that what that's not a guarantee or a promise but that is a wise

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Proverbs of how parents should discipline their kids and the things the Lord, right? As for me in my house, we're going to serve the

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Lord, but you may have a child from birth that rebels their entire life They may go to church and you know that they're not saved and when they get older and they're no longer under your household

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Right, you're no longer able to discipline them like that from When they were a child, does that make sense?

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Well, what I'm getting at is because of their sinful rebellious heart Okay, so but my point is can you also take a child or someone that's rough and teach them the right way?

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Right, but that's different than the heart trusting in God so, you know

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We that's you know, our our righteousness is like filthy rags before God now.

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I do realize that's in Isaiah That's pertaining to Israel. But I believe that's showing the simple heart of all man and even

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Israel being a highly religious people group. They're not pagan They're even he's saying look even your righteousness is like filthy rags

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And that's why I'm the New Testament Romans 14 says whatever is done not in faith This is not a generic faith, but faith in Christ is sin

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So, yeah, you can teach them to do right things But it's still detestable not the eyes of God because it's not doing it to glorify his name

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You probably would agree with a lot of that Well, I think as far as the guilty and condemned