Pietism

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Piety good, Pietism bad

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Black sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night.
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A misprint with the sixth sense, been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.
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My two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.
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My 9th Smith on my right side, why you staring at your cop dot sign?
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My John Hancock on the dotted line, tell me what's the bottom line? The bottom line is
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I'm not right, I'm not left, but the cellophane won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight, hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight.
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You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
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You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
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To sit in, my theology don't fit in, black sheep of the
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Reformation sheep pen. To the Reformed, I'm just another Baptist, baptized again.
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The bastard child of Anabaptist, host to child of Reformation society.
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We don't need your education, give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men.
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Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans, bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men. Making Reformation great again, you can say what you want.
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You can say what you want, but you won't around me. You can say what you want, you can say what you want, but you won't around me.
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No, you won't around me, around me, around me, around me, around me.
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All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jeff Rice and I am one of the pastors of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church, and you are watching the
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Open Earth Theology Show. I'm here with my co -host, Brayden. Brayden, introduce yourself.
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Yeah, I'm Brayden Patterson, the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. I have the absolute blessing to preach
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Christ crucified on a very regular basis. I'm very thankful for that, and I also have a YouTube channel called
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Reformed Ex -Mormon. Please go check that out if you haven't already. It's very, very thankful to be on this podcast here with Jeff.
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I would normally turn it over to Haps, but Haps can't be here with us tonight, which is always a disappointment when he can't make it.
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Yeah, y 'all be praying for Haps. His blood pressure was up today, and he was really excited about this subject.
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He left us a voice text message. Y 'all make sure to say, you gave us this list of stuff to say, and so he's really excited to express his opinion tonight, but he didn't want to take any chances being on here, so be praying for him.
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So what's going on, Brayden? What you up to, brother? Not a whole lot. It's just been, well, before the podcast right now, the show, we were starting to get down a rabbit hole, which we need to not go down again, or else we're going to only talk about that tonight.
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Yeah, and I think we will talk about it in the future. Just letting everyone know what it is that we're talking about is the debate on divine simplicity.
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Yeah, yeah, and so it's something that, you know, I've been working through for a couple of months, and Brayden just got on the train, and so...
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Choo -choo. It's a lot to choo -choo over. I was thinking about even in your song, and I'm going to probably misquote you, where you were like, my two cents doesn't make sense.
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I was just like, my two cents never made sense. Yes, that's it. So I myself, you know,
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I really need to learn how to swallow. Like, I just, you know,
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I'm always choking myself up. Yeah, so my week's been good. Cool. Preaching through the gospel of John, and so I've been focused on the testimony of a prophet.
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So this will be my last week dealing with that, and then next week I'll go through the testimony of the disciples. And so I finished that last night.
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I still have to do some read -throughs, scratching stuff, erasing stuff, adding stuff type of a situation when it comes to it.
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And that's all the way up till Sunday morning when I'm going over, and I'm erasing stuff, adding stuff, trying to work it out.
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And so it definitely takes me the whole week before I enter into the pulpit to have it down.
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Yeah, but my week's been good. Stressful. My arm, man, something's wrong with my left arm.
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The other day, man, I just felt like it was like an ice pack all over it, and it felt like I was being stabbed in my arm.
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So you can see I'm braced up several different places right now. My dude, I'm sorry, man. Yeah, it's all good.
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But it's something that, from what I understand, it's from stress. And again, running a business, pastoring a church, planning a conference, being a husband, being a father.
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No stress. But the last two days, it's felt better.
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But man, my joints are aching right now a little. But yeah, so speaking of the conference, y 'all keep in mind, we're having that conference coming up in February.
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We still got a lot more information you can get out there and stuff like that. So just be looking out for it.
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Come support us. It's going to be great. But I guess we'll get on the topic, the topic of pietism.
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Now, I understand that most people might not know what pietism is.
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Now, it's something that I have been preaching, talking about for quite a while, at least three or four years.
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I've been beating this down my wife's throat, just preaching it, preaching it, preaching it. And it took someone else saying it before she got it.
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But there is a YouTube show, podcast, whatever you want to call it, vlog.
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It's a group called Theocast. And I recommend anyone and all to listen to Theocast.
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It's a really good show. They got a podcast, their own podcast on YouTube.
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I watch them on YouTube. But they do a lot on pietism.
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And when she heard it, she was saying, so I said, I've been telling you that for years.
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Right. And then, you know, and so now she really, you know, she sees it and she's awakened to it.
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But of course, I didn't call it pietism. You know,
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I didn't know what to call it, but I've been preaching it. I just didn't know there was a name for it.
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And so what we say before we really get into it is piety is good.
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So Brayden, why don't you explain what piety is? Yeah, so the way that I would define piety is it's a
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Christian, somebody that believes and has faith in Christ and has had their sins paid for already on the cross 2000 years ago.
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A Christian seeking to live a holy life by being sanctified to God's word and also being obedient to God's laws and commands, which is something that I think every
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Christian ought to be seeking for is being conformed to the very image of the sun. And so it's it really
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I would say that it's a very synonymous word with sanctification. It's it's something that is a just a biblical
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Christian lifestyle that we ought to be seeking after is piety. Yeah, you know, if you're a true
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Christian, you want to be. You want to live a holy life, right?
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You want to be, you know, doing what you were called to do.
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You want to be conforming to the image of Christ. Like these are good things to desire.
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Now, pietism or pietism interrupts that is is that what you're doing is you're looking to yourself for your assurance of salvation.
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And I and I and I and I know what you're probably thinking. Well, what's wrong with that?
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Well, if you're looking to yourself for assurance, you're not going to have any assurance.
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And that's where pietism is dangerous. Pietism came back. I mean, you know, came out probably
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I think it was late 17th century and it was developed on and it's been really, really a popular way of preaching throughout every sense.
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You know, like it has its roots in the 17th century, but churches, pastors have taken it and run for it, run with it, especially in the
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American context. I mean, you know, like if you just think about here's 10 things that you can do to have a better life.
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Well, that's pietism, lordship, salvation, pietism. I mean,
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I can I didn't write any of the stuff down, but there's there's other systems that I can name.
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What's that thing that Doug Wilson is accused of again? Oh, he's not used to be.
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Oh, my goodness, I I just studied it not too long ago. What is it? I got to look it up now.
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What is it? You know, we need to be better podcasters. I apologize.
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I don't even I can't even remember what it's called. I remember I can't remember what it's called for anything.
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I stopped. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was too. I was too. Anyways, that's pietism.
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Anytime that you are are looking to yourself, you're taking your eyes off Christ. And so so if you if you go to a church and they have altar calls, pietism.
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All right, you're doing something to make yourself right with God, pietism.
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It's now you said, well, Jeff, why is that dangerous? Well, it's dangerous because we're when we do stuff like that, our focus and our attention is on ourself and it's not on where it's supposed to be.
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Now, I'm going to read for just a minute and then I'll let you just, you know, paddleboard off what
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I say and then we can just go back and forth and talk about it. I love it. So sounds great.
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Or just stop me at any time. Like what? Like this should kick something. Pietism is the denial of the imputation of Christ's righteousness in the believer's life.
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So let me ask you this. What is the imputation of righteousness? Yeah, it's when we undeservingly are covered by the righteous life that Christ lived for us.
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Yeah, so so so that's hinging on gospel truth.
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Jesus, he lived the life that you and I could not live. Jesus took upon himself the punishment that we deserve.
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All right. So pietism comes in and what it does is it denies your positional, you being positionally righteous before God.
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They want you to question your righteousness that you have been giving by faith.
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Abraham believed God and he was credited. He was counted righteous.
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Why was he counted righteous? Because he believed God. When you and I call upon the name of the
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Lord, when you and I repent from self -righteousness and turn to God in Christ, we are credited.
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We are are counted righteous. We are given the righteousness of Christ.
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We are positionally righteous. Pietism comes in and says, doubt that.
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Stop looking at that and look at your your own life. Look at your own fruit to see if you're right with God, not the fruit of Christ.
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Absolutely. And I, you know, let me start paddling off of what you just said, right? Because there's there's a lot of different places that my mind takes me to on this, right?
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Um, I think that it's it's honestly, so looking at the covenant of work, something that's been ingrained into our fallenness since the very beginning, right?
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You have Adam in the garden after immediately after he sins, he attempts to hide himself and cover himself before God.
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It's him doing something so that he can stand before God is what it's an attempt for.
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There's I really think when I think of pietism, it's very similar to legalism, as I was expressing to you before the show in the thought that it seems that it's it's actions and works without the theology and faith and the finished faith in what
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Christ has done. Because I know that you and I would believe and hold to the same thing, that the very thing that saved us when we first believed in Christ is the thing that saves us today.
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And it's going to be the thing that justifies us and keeps us in the faith in the future, right? It's not it's not that tomorrow
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I'm going to do x, y, and z things that's going to keep me in the faith. It's that God has done something for me 2000 years ago.
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And it is because I've been covered by that righteousness. I can't nullify it, nor can
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I add to it, nor can I even keep it. It's given to me. It's already in my account. There's nothing
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I can do for those things. And so I think what pietism does is it's this plucking on the heartstrings of the person that is already innately wanting to do covenant of works type of things, wanting to do works, wanting to express that they are justified before men and even before God by what they have done rather than what
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Christ has done for them. Right, right. And now let me step on some more toes.
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Yeah. Pietism is it teaches that that what matters is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
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People are like, what? What is he saying? What is he saying? Now, listen, listen, listen.
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Scripture speaks corporately. Corporately. OK. And so when
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I say your personal relationship with Christ, I'm not saying that you don't have a personal relationship with Christ.
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Right. What I'm saying is pietism would say that it's what you do in your personal time outside of corporate worship.
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That's the meat. That's the bones of your relationship with God. Your own personal
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Bible reading, your own personal prayer life, your own personal fasting, just name it, whatever it looks like.
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Now, I'm not saying this. Yeah, you're going to have your own personal quiet time. That's where, you know, it happens.
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That's where the growth comes from. The Bible knows nothing of that. The Bible talks about corporate like he's writing to churches.
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Now, I'm not saying listen to me right now. I'm not saying don't read your Bible. Don't pray.
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Don't. I'm not saying any of that stuff. But what I'm saying is pietism. It teaches that that's where the meat and potatoes are.
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Scripture doesn't teach that. Scripture teaches that the meat and potatoes are in the gathering of ourself in the assembly.
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So as Reformed Baptists, and I would say Reformed Presbyterians, we would hold to what's called the ordinary means of grace.
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And so we have, you know, the main ones would be the word of God, preach baptism in the
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Lord's supper. So this would be your first tier. And then also we would say our fellowshipping with the saints, singing songs, you know, praying and all this stuff.
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That also God uses that to grow us in holiness. Now, I'm not saying that God's not, you know, growing you in your own personal prayer time, scripture reading, fasting.
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I'm not saying that God's not showing you something. But the meat and potatoes, as the
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Southerners would say, it's in the church. It's when we gather together.
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It's in relationship, right? It's not me and Jesus got our own thing going. Me and Jesus got it all worked out.
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It's are you connected with the body of Christ, right? Because if you look at the early church, so we're talking the times when the scriptures, whenever Paul was preaching, planting churches, and from that time on up into the laymen were given scriptures in their own vernacular, people didn't have a
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Bible to read. It was all written in a language they didn't understand. So people didn't have the word of God like we have today.
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They didn't have this right here. Only the priest would have it. And they would and they would recite it in a language that they didn't know.
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So to say that your own personal prayer time, your own personal habits that you formed in your quiet time, that that's where God meets you.
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Then you're saying that God never met with the early church. Now, again,
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I want to stress that we have been given more light than those in the early church because we have it in our vernacular.
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As a matter of fact, there's a ton of different translations that we can read and understand. And so we need to take advantage of this stuff.
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But we need to understand that our own, if you miss a reading time, if you went a day without praying or if you fall into some kind of a struggle, listen, just because you messed up and you didn't do something that you planned to do, like reading your
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Bible within a year. And let's say the year's up and you only read, instead of the 66 books, you've only read 32.
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Listen, you're no less a Christian. That's right. You're not more of a Christian. You're not more of a
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Christian than someone that reads one verse a day. If you read the Bible every 90 days, you're no more a
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Christian. It's not what you do. What you're doing in your own private time doesn't make you a Christian. What makes you a
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Christian is Jesus Christ died for your sins according to the scriptures, was buried, rose again on the third day, and you have been gifted faith to believe.
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You called upon his name in repentance. That's what makes you a Christian. Not what you're doing in your own time.
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Yeah. And I would just echo again, like we are not saying it's a bad thing to want to read the Bible. Well, yeah,
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I love it. But do not question your salvation that you've had, that you have in Christ when you only get to 32 books, because that's not how you determine your salvation.
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It's truly upon what Christ has done. And let me, I just want to read real fast.
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There's a lot of different places that my mind is taking me to on this conversation. But Galatians 3 through,
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I'm just going to read verses three and on. It says, and you so full. Are you so foolish having begun by the spirit?
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Are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain?
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Does he then who provides you with the spirit and works miracles among you do it by the works of the law or by the hearing with faith?
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Even so, which I'm happy you talked about this already. Even so Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
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Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith, who are the sons of Abraham, which let me,
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I'm going to say that again. Those who are of faith are the sons of Abraham. And I know we're in good fellowship when we say this.
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We are the descendants of Abraham. We are descendants of the promise, right?
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Yes. And so verse eight then says in the scripture for seeing that God would justify the
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Gentiles, which once again comes right after that verse seven by faith, preach the gospel beforehand.
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So the gospel was preached to Abraham before the gospel even took place beforehand to Abraham saying, all the nations shall be blessed in you.
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So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer, which just think about for a moment.
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I am a member of the body of Abraham.
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I, we, we there, as you said, somebody that reads their Bible once a day is just as justified as the person that spends hours and hours and hours reading the
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Bible. If they both are placing their faith in the finished work of Christ, they are both equally sat at the table.
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So Abraham equally sat at the table with Moses, equally sat at the table with David, equally sat at the table with Jeff Rice.
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One's not elevated in stature because of what they have done. For as many are, for as many as are under or of the works of the law are under a curse, where it is written, curses everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.
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Now that no one is justified by the law before God is evident for the righteous man shall live by faith.
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Romans 1 verse 17 for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith for it is written, but the righteous man shall live by faith.
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When we even look at James chapter two, which is very commonly quoted by the legalist or the cults that are wanting to abuse
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God's word to justify themselves and what they are doing as actions. We have to understand that when
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James says, I will show you my faith by my works. It is said he's saying that to another
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Christian. He's not saying that to God. God, I will show you my faith because of what I have done.
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That's not the justification that takes place. Faith is in God and what he has done for us, and therefore we are justified.
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We can then go to our Christian brother and sister and say, I know that I am not good, but look,
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I have faith in what Christ has done and I'm trying to be sanctified in his word by performing these
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X, Y, and Z works. And I know that I fail and I know that those things don't justify me, but I'm doing them to be sanctified in the word.
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And there's a plethora of scriptures that really come to mind when we start talking about this, but I'll let you keep on paddling off that,
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Jeff. Yeah, I mean, like y 'all have heard me give the example of the analogy of driving in my vehicle.
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And instead of, you know, I'm going down the road, I'm doing 55, 70.
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Speed limit is 55, I'm doing, I'm doing 50, 70. But instead of looking out in front of me where I'm supposed to be looking at my, at my front glass, my, you know,
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I'm looking out either my, I'm turning around, I'm looking out the back glass or I'm, or my attention is looking at the mirror, the rear view mirror, you know, and I'm driving and I'm not looking at where I'm going.
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And if I do that, I'm going to wreck the car, right? I really,
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I was studying for the book of Hebrews and then I, you know, where it talks about running the race. And, you know, like a lot of pastors were talking about, you know, the runners, they line up and, you know, they're, and they take off running.
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My problem with that is that they're not chasing, like what it is that they're chasing, they can't see, right?
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They can't see the finish line. They're all chasing that, the finish line, but they can't see the finish line.
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All they can see is one another and they're in a stadium with a crowd of people.
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They cannot see the finish line. That's pietism. Now, I like to think about a greyhound race, the dog race, right?
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You got these dogs, they're lined up. They don't even know what's going on, really. You know, next thing you know, a mechanical rabbit pops up and it swings forward and all they can see, listen, all those dogs can see is that rabbit.
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And as that rabbit is propelled, they're chasing the rabbit. The one dog is not worried about the dog right beside it.
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They're in a stadium. They're surrounded by cameras and people and they're not looking at the cameras and they're not looking at the people.
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They're looking at the rabbit, right? They're looking at the rabbit.
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Now, that's what the Christian life should be. Hmm. You and I should be looking to Christ and Christ alone.
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The moment we take our eyes off of Christ, we wreck the car. We run into the dog next to us.
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We run into the dog next to us, exactly. Yeah. We fall on our face.
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Yeah. People contact me every once in a while and just ask me questions, and so someone, a young lady
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I grew up with, my wife knows her.
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My wife knows that when she has theological questions, she'll contact me. So I'm not talking to a woman that my wife don't know.
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My wife knows that I'm talking, informing her on some theology.
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She was doubting, she's been underneath preaching words, having her do some doubting.
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So I have to break the pietism out of what she just heard.
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And I told her, I was like, listen, fruit is good, right?
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But the tree doesn't check to see if it has fruit, right?
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I don't check to see if I have fruit, but I do check and see if Brayden has fruit.
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Yeah. Brayden checks and see if I have fruit. James says, I'll show you my faith by my works, by my fruit.
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What he's saying is, is you're going to see the fruit on me, but it's not for me to see the fruit, because the moment that I take my eyes off of Christ, I run into the dog next to me.
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I wreck the car. That is a really good point, brother. If I'm looking to Christ, guess what
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I'm going to be producing? Fruit. You're going to be kicking up the dust as you're running.
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Right. If I'm not looking at Christ, guess what I'm not producing? Fruit. It's not for me to see my own fruit, because the moment
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I start looking at my own life, guess what I see? The many times that I failed. And guess what creeps in?
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Am I really a Christian? Mm -hmm. I think again, it does that whole, it's that about what intention, what is the purpose behind you doing something?
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Are you doing it so that you can bear fruit and you're looking at what you're doing?
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I really liked how you just said that. Am I looking at my own fruit by doing this? Or am I looking at the prize?
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Am I looking at Jesus while I'm doing this? If I'm looking at Jesus doing this, you could have somebody that's looking at their own fruit and somebody that's looking at Jesus while doing it.
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And they do the exact same thing. And one is doing it for the glory of God. And the other one is failing in their flesh.
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Philippians 3 .3, something that was coming to my mind when you were talking, it says, for we are the true circumcision who worship
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God in the spirit of, who worship in the spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.
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Right. Yeah. I mean, just imagine if I was able to see my own fruit.
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Man, think of the pride that that can build up in me. Oh, dude, you would have no pride. You'd see nothing.
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Just think of the pride, right? I mean, immediately. And something else, like whenever someone asks to become a member of our church, we ask three questions.
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And one of the questions that we ask is, how do you know? So we ask, you know, when did you become a
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Christian? How do you know you're a Christian? And what is the gospel?
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So when you ask someone, how do you know that you're a Christian? The main answer that's usually given is pietism.
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Well, I know I'm a Christian because I used to live like this. And now
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I live like this. Pietism. You're telling me that you know you're a
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Christian because your life became morally better. No, that's not the right answer.
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The right answer is I know that I'm a Christian because Jesus Christ lived a life that I could not live.
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And Jesus Christ died to death, took the punishment that I deserve. And I believe that.
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I've been given faith to believe that. I have turned from my self -righteousness and put my faith in him.
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I have called upon his name. Right? Jesus has lived the life that I couldn't live.
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Jesus has taken my punishment. That's how I know that I'm a Christian. My faith, my trust, my hope, my everything is in that.
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Not in what I've done. Amen. You see what I'm saying? Oh, do you see the difference?
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You see the difference? Yeah, absolutely. Dude, there's a plethora of scripture that's just coming to my mind on all this that you're saying, like in all then this whole conversation, right?
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And like, if please, if you proclaim to be a
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Christian, right, like, and you are saying, if I go before God, I'm going to beg with him and say,
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God, look, I used to be an alcoholic. Now I'm not. Or God, look, I used to never pray.
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And now I pray every single day. Luke 18 verses 19 or verses nine and on.
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It just says, and he also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous.
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So this is speaking specifically about people who think that they are doing righteousness and viewed others with contempt.
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Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself,
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God, I thank thee that I am not like other people, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
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So he's looking inward. He's seeing fruit. And he's proclaiming that before God as what he sees as what's righteous.
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Verse 12 says, I fast twice a week. I pray tithes of all that I get.
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But the tax collector standing some distance away was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying,
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God, be merciful to me, the sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.
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For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled. But he who humbles himself shall be exalted.
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I think, like I said, like we have to remember that the righteous man lives by faith.
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The righteous man is not kept righteous by the works of his hands, but he is kept righteous by living in faith.
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And where is that object of faith being put into? It has to only be on what our theology is, our knowing of who
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God is. It has to be in that proper place. And if we put our faith in that proper object of worship, which is
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Christ on the cross, Christ rising from the tomb, Christ living a life that we can't live, we will live by faith.
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We will not look to ourselves for our own righteousness. And so even in the
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Christian that is falling into this error of looking and saying, look, I see my own fruit.
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I see my own fruit. Like you gotta stop. You gotta stop thinking that you are justified or that you are being made righteous or you're being kept secure.
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Because I'm making, with this whole Lordship Salvation, because I'm making Jesus Lord at workplace, because I'm making
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Jesus Lord in prayer. I'm doing this. It's me that's doing this.
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No, no, Jesus is Lord of those things already. You should recognize him as Lord in all those things.
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But just because you recognize him as those things does not mean that you are saved or that you're keeping your salvation.
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Jesus is Lord. It's where you place your faith in that matters. Yeah. You know, just peddling off of what you said, whenever you quoted that verse, you know, the
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Pharisees and the tax collectors, you're no more like a Pharisee than when you're looking at your own fruit.
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You know, you wanna be a Pharisee, look within yourself.
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And another thing, which I know we're gonna do something on theonomy. And I wanna, you know, let people know that I'm real sensitive when it comes to the subject because I wanna say that I'm a theonomist, right?
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The word, theos numos, God's law. You know,
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I am for God's law. I am for the law of God.
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What I'm not for is what these recent movements have made it out to be.
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And a lot of my friends who would say that they're theonomist, but then they would just say, but we're general equity theonomist.
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Well, that's not what theonomism was turned into. You see what
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I'm saying? Like Brayden, if I was to ask you, are you gay? What would your answer be? Well, I'm happy, but I'm not gay.
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You're not gay, right? Depends on what you're asking me. I wanna say that I'm gay if we're talking about happy.
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Yep. Cause I am happy. But people have turned the word gay to mean something else.
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If only we had haps right now. Holy play on this right now. Oh yeah, pastor gay.
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Love you. He's getting a message. But theonomy, so like if theonomy wasn't made into this
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Christian reconstructionism that we see the establishment of the mosaic law,
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I would be all for it. I mean, and it's not even that. It's the idea when you take it and you mix it with the postmill system, it's that we are building
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God's kingdom. We're going, notice the we, notice the we're, we're going to establish
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God's kingdom. Ladies and gentlemen, Jesus Christ established the kingdom 2000 years ago through his death, burial, and resurrection.
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All right, and he's putting all enemies under his feet through the preaching of the gospel. There's a guy that goes to my church,
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Robert. Robert just became, I think, a councilman of the area that he's living in.
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So he's moving in the political realm. And I think that's great. I want to be governed by God's law.
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But it's not the church that establishes this.
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Jesus has already done. I mean, Jesus has already, Jesus putting all enemies under his feet to the gospel.
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Now the individual member of a church, please go seek these offices, do something, change it.
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But don't tell me as a pastor that I'm supposed to do it because God has not put me there.
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He's put me in the pulpit. I'm to encourage you to, you know, in that system.
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I'm for general equity. Absolutely. Well, I'm not for Christian reconstructionism. Yeah. Even in all of the idea of pietism, and I'll be just short on this because I know you want to keep on going on it.
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It's when we say that we are the ones that are establishing the kingdom are weird. That is pietism.
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That is. That absolutely is. It is. And that's where I would just, you know, because again,
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I want to say that I'm a theonomist, but I can't because of what it's been turned into. It's something more than Theo Numas, right?
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It's establishing things that God has put it into.
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All right. So God's transcendent law, the Ten Commandments has not ended.
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It's not in every man, woman, child. They're under the law of God, whether they know it or not.
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I mean, it's true. And we are to, you know, call people to repent.
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We're to call people to do these things. But again, if my neighbor is doing something he's not to do, me as a pastor,
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I'm not, it's not my job to go over and punish him. You know, if my neighbor is cheating on his wife, it's not my,
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I can't go kick him out of the church, nor can I stone him. But if a member of my church is cheating on his wife, what can
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I do? I first, I can put him under church discipline, call him to repentance. If he does not do that, what do we do?
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We cast him out to Satan. We remove him from the church. And so I am doing what
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I'm called to do. Well, how do you know you're supposed to do that? God's law. Okay.
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And the way that we see the New Testament carrying it out, God's law, the way
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Paul carried it out. And so again, I'm sure you want to say it as well.
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We want to say that we're, the thing with me is, why do we got to give it a name, right?
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Like, why do we got to make it a gang? There's enough gangs in Christendom.
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We don't need to have sets. Me versus you. The fight, laugh, feast crowd versus this crowd over here.
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I mean, it just makes no sense. Anytime that we're doing stuff like that, we're not loving our brothers.
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We're not being neighborly. Yeah. We end up hurting the bride of Christ when we do that. Correct. When we say we can't fellowship with another person over, truly in many senses, a tertiary issue, it's terrible.
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It's terrible. That is, I think, dishonoring to God. I think it is, it has no right in the church.
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And one thing I was going to think that I was going to bounce off of what you were just saying with, it's not us that advance the kingdom of God.
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While, yes, we are sent out into the world, we are to make disciples. Make disciples, preach the gospel, make disciples, baptize.
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But, and I would even echo some post -millennialists on this, right? Whose authority is it that we do that on?
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The one that says I have all authority in heaven and on earth, right? So the discipling making is not dependent on me doing this.
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This, again, is based off the authority of what Christ has done and the authority that he has in heaven and on earth.
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You can't make a disciple if God has not regenerated the heart. Exactly. Exactly. And if you think that you can do that, that is definitely, we got some other areas in theology, but Hebrews chapter eight, which
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I know that this is one of your, probably one of your favorite verses. It's been one of mine here recently, just studying a bunch of it and reading books on it.
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But Hebrews chapter eight, verses eight through 12 says this, for finding, and this is a quotation, of course, from Jeremiah 31, 31 through 34.
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And I think it's very important in the topic of pietism.
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And then I'm sure we'll even come back to this when we talk about theonomy in the future. But once again, that pietism is the looking into your own fruit for your justification or your keeping of solidity.
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Your assurance, your justification. Your assurance. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Your evidence, right? My evidence is the empty tomb, right?
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Like that's where our, as a Christian, that's our evidence is the empty tomb. Cross, where it was done.
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Hebrews chapter eight, verse eight through 12 says this, for finding fall with them. He says, behold, days are coming, says the
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Lord. When I, once again, that's God that's speaking here, not myself. When I effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant, which
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I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they did not continue in my covenant.
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And I did not care for them, says the Lord. And let's just keep on reading.
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I'll make mention of some stuff that I think is very applicable to what we're talking about. Verse 10, for this is the covenant that I make with the house of Israel.
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After those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their minds.
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I will write them upon their hearts and I will be their
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God and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen and everyone his brother saying, know the
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Lord, for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more.
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The reality, I think, in this is that one point I would make mention of real fast is notice the pronoun that takes on being used in there.
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It's a lack of me doing something. It's a lack of Jeff doing something. It's the factual nature of what this text is speaking about is that God has done something, not man has done something.
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And when we look at the Old Testament and the old covenants that were made mention of in verse nine, not like the covenant
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I made with them with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they did not continue in my covenant.
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Those are covenants that were dependent upon those people obedience to them. They were fleshly covenants of works that had physical blessings and physical punishments.
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And those were, people could be in those, could be covenant members in those Old Testament covenants and they could violate
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God's covenant. They could receive those punishments in there. They could, there would be many that would not even be of faith in God, but would still be covenant members because they were of the land of Israel.
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Right. And when you look at verses 10 and on in here, what do we have a difference of between those covenants and this covenant?
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Well, a plethora of things, but one of those things is that every covenant member of this new covenant knows
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God. Every covenant member of this covenant has the law not written on stone tablets, but upon their very inner core, on their hearts and upon their minds.
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And who is the one that has put those laws there? It is God himself, right?
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Right. And again, you and I would agree that this is speaking of regeneration, being born again, that removal of the heart of stone and a placing therein of the heart of flesh.
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And that's where we now have this new law written inside of us. And so the issue with this is when we think about it is that the
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Christian is going to love God's law. They're going to want to obey it.
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They're going to want to be sanctified by it. But when was their sins no longer remembered?
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When was verse 12, for I will be merciful to their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more.
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When did that take place? At the cross. That's when the sin was paid for.
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Imputation was given when you first believe through the granting of faith after being born again.
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That this is so important for us to remember that it's not I, it's not this pietism thing of I keep
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God's law. So therefore I, my sins are no longer remembered or it's this keeping in the sense.
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No, it's God that has done this. It's God that has written them upon my heart. It's God that has done this 2000 years ago.
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And I am a new covenant member. I'm blessed by being part of it. And I don't get to go to my neighbor any longer and say no
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God for they all know him from the least to the greatest of them. And I think that when we talk about this theonomy conversation is that I think, and correct me if I'm wrong,
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Jeff, if this would be an error in saying, but I think that the post -millennialist often thinks that it is them that is trying to attempt to write the law in other people's hearts when it is
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God himself that does that. Yeah, I think it's the idea that we need to establish
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God's law, right? The establishment of God's law is not gonna make people holy.
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I mean, it's just not, right? Now I love God's law, but the establishment of the law is not going to change man's heart.
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The preaching of the gospel changes the heart. And so I'm for the establishment of God's law, but I want to put it in its proper order of what it's to do.
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God's law did not make Israel holy. I mean, they broke
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God's law. God had to give them a sacrificial system. The law was given for keep the law, live in the land, right?
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I can run through countless verses. The law was keep the law, live in the land. Pietism is it's
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Christians trying to live under the law. It's not gospel. The gospel is it is finished.
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The law is keep the law, live in the land. Christian pietism is keep the law and live.
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Keep the law and be righteous, all right? It's not gospel.
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It's not it is finished. Believe and you will have position. You are positionally righteous before God.
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And so just because you give people rules, that's not going to make the world better.
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What's going to make the world better? Yes, I'm not against the rules, but when building a building, you don't start with the roof.
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You start with the foundation, right? And the foundation is this gospel.
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We have to build upon the gospel, not build upon the law, right?
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All we're going to be doing. I mean, it's just backwards. Now, I'm going to look at you went to Hebrews.
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I want to go to Hebrews. Yeah, I'll read some verses. And this is just going to tell us of the work of Jesus.
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I mean, Hebrews chapter two, verse five. And it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, right?
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The word here for subjected is the Greek word hypotasso. It means to subdue, right?
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Word hypotasso means to subdue. But it says the world to come.
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The word world here is oikomene, but it's the oikomene to come the known world.
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And as it's growing, right? We see that Christianity started in a very small group of people, and it's been spreading.
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And it wasn't to angels that God has commended this to spread and to take over.
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Let's read this more. For it was not to angels that God subjected hypotasso to subdue the world to come for which we are speaking.
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He has testified somewhere. What is a man that you are mindful of him or the son of man that you care for him?
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You made him a little, this is speaking of Jesus, a little lower than the angels. You have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet hypotasso under the feet of Jesus.
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Now I'm putting everything in subjection to him. He left nothing outside of his control right here.
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At present, we do not see everything in subjection to him.
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We do not see everything hypotasso. We do not see everything subdued to him. But what do we see?
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It tells you verse nine, but we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely
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Jesus crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering death so that by grace,
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God might, I mean, so that by the grace of God, he might taste deaths for everyone.
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For it was fitting that he for whom and by whom all things exist in bringing many sons to glory should make the founder of our salvation perfect through suffering.
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For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why it's not a shame to be called the brothers.
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Now listen to this. It's going to get into the hypostatic union saying, I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation.
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I will sing your praise. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, behold, I and the children
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God has given me. Right here. Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself, speaking of Jesus, likewise partook in the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death.
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That is the devil and deliver all those who through the fear of death were subjected, were enslaved to lifelong slavery.
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For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect.
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Right here, it's coming up. So that he might become the merciful and faithful high priests in the service of God to make propitiation, to be the payment for our own doing, propitiation for the sins of the people, because he himself has suffered.
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When tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. So how is it that the world is being subjected?
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Well, it just said Jesus Christ took on flesh. He lived his life and then he died.
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Okay, he had to take on flesh. He had to be made like his brothers. In order to what? When I mean his brothers here,
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I'm meaning his ethnicity, him being a Hebrew. He had to be made a Hebrew in order to be the high priest so that he can be the mediator between God and man.
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The high priest was the mediator. Jesus had to become the mediator so he can mediate for people like me and for people like you who are enslaved to the power of death.
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Jesus destroys the one who has the power of death. That is the devil. John 12 speaks about, now the ruler of this world will be judged, speaking about the cross.
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When Jesus was nailed hands and feet to the cross, Genesis chapter 3, 15, the bruising of the serpent's head while only bruising the offspring's foot, that's what took place there.
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And so it's through that one event that the world is being subjected, that the world to come is being hypotassoed through that message.
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That's the foundation. And as that message spreads and as people become
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Christians, God's wall, loving God and loving your neighbor will be realized.
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Putting that before the gospel never worked. The gospel has to come first.
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Again, there's a man at my church, he's a councilman. Right now, he's going to bat to try to get them to stop doing property taxes because it's theft.
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It's theft. It's absolutely theft. And the Bible says, you shall not steal. I'm all for that.
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I'm all for that. That's general equity. But the main thing that needs to take place is he's doing something else.
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He's also preaching gospel, right? He's also working in schools for children
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You know, he's doing things. Gospel wise, he's doing both. He's not focusing on one.
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He's not starting with the roof, working his way to the foundation. Because that's pietism.
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Again, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I've been reading it. Again, like you and I are not saying we are not a theonomist in the literal definition of that word.
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We do love God. Right. We do love God. It's written inside of us. Like we absolutely love it.
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Amen to that. Praise God for it. But it's God that is the one that has written out there. And the gospel is the very center of that.
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If God doesn't write the law on their hearts and minds, and that only happens in the new covenant.
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All right. They're not going to obey the law. Why? Because they have not been, their heart has, you know, their heart of stone has not been removed and given a heart of flesh.
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Right. God has not sprinkled them with clean water and put a spirit in them that causes them to obey the law.
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Why is it that I even attempt to obey the law?
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Why? Why? Because God has given me his spirit. Yep. Right. So that whenever, you know,
01:00:02
I find myself in sin, guess what happens? Conviction.
01:00:10
Conviction takes place because I have it in my mind. It's on my heart. And if I break that, conviction takes place.
01:00:18
What takes place next? Repentance and confession. Yep. Right. Listen, if that's not written in my mind, in my heart.
01:00:28
Yeah. OK. Yeah. Right. That has to be done first.
01:00:34
Yep. The tablets of stone is not going to keep people in line. Hebrews chapter 8, that new covenant is not a future new covenant.
01:00:46
That is a current reality. As you even made mention of in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 12, it says the congregation, the church of the old.
01:00:58
Hebrews chapter 8, Hebrews chapter, excuse me, Hebrews, I'm turning to it right now. Hebrews chapter 10, excuse me.
01:01:07
It says that do not forsake our own assembling together. And it's speaking about those that are these new covenant members.
01:01:14
The new covenant was enacted or was performed by the better mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises that this is already been done by that very root of David.
01:01:32
The very horn of salvation. And I'm choosing my and selecting my words choicely right now.
01:01:40
This is a current reality. And if you have been born again and you look to the gospel, which is, again, that that perfect life that Jesus Christ lived, him dying the death that you deserve for your sins on the cross and that you've been buried and rose again, that he was buried and rose again on the third day.
01:01:56
And that's what you have faith in. It is not your faith that triumphs over this, but it is
01:02:02
Christ himself who paid it. You've been imputed with the righteousness of himself and your sin has been imputed to him and he's paid it fully there.
01:02:13
You are a new covenant member. And yeah. Are you trying to address?
01:02:18
Stop, stop looking at your own righteous words. Yeah, so this is seated by force. Is that what you're talking about?
01:02:24
Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, where he doesn't understand is is is the gospel. My friend, you don't understand the gospel.
01:02:31
Yeah, Revelations 321 to him that overcometh. OK, how does someone overcome? It's not in their own doing.
01:02:39
You overcome by the work of Jesus Christ. If you say anything else, my friend, guess what?
01:02:48
You are not in the new covenant. You are not a Christian. You're not a
01:02:53
Christian. And the Orthodox sense. You're just not like like we're not even on the same page here.
01:03:02
You are what I feel like sometimes, which I really don't know exactly what he believes, like I don't know his system.
01:03:10
But it's like I'm speaking to a Mormon mouth. Yeah, but it's like I'm speaking to a Mormon. It's like I'm speaking to a
01:03:16
Jehovah's Witness. They're looking within themselves. Commands, commands, commands. I'm able to command.
01:03:22
I mean, like if you if you want to get law. First John chapter two, which
01:03:32
I know and I can just quote it off to you, but I just want to get there. Begin in verse three.
01:03:38
And by this we know that we have come to know him. If we keep his commandments, whoever says that I know him, but does not keep his commandments is a liar.
01:03:50
And the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word in him, truly the love of God is perfected by this.
01:03:57
We may know if that we are in him. Whoever says that he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
01:04:06
All right. You want some law? There's some law. But let's get some answers. Next chapter, chapter three, verse 23.
01:04:15
And this is his commandments that we believe in the name of the son,
01:04:22
Jesus Christ and love one another just as he has commanded us.
01:04:27
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God and God in him.
01:04:33
And by this, we know that we abide, that he abides in us by the spirit of him he has given us.
01:04:41
So love God, love neighbor, right? The two tablets, the 10 words, the decalogue, the first four point to our duty to God.
01:04:53
Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. The final six point to our love towards our neighbors.
01:05:01
Do not lie. Do not steal. Do not covenant. Honor your father and mother, so on and so forth. All right.
01:05:08
So how do we love God? It tells you by believing in the name of Jesus Christ. You want to love
01:05:13
God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. Believe in the name of the son,
01:05:21
Jesus Christ. If you do not have the son, you do not have the father. Ladies and gentlemen, that is grace given right there.
01:05:30
All right. How do you love your neighbor? God has given you his spirit, right? Right. Listen, he has given you his spirit.
01:05:38
The spirit causes us to obey his word. If I lie to Brayden, Brayden probably won't know, but I'll know that I lied to him.
01:05:49
I'll get convicted. I'll say, Brayden, I lied to you, man. Remember I said earlier, confession and repentance, right?
01:06:00
I come to him and I ask him for forgiveness. All right. Now, Brayden to do one or two things.
01:06:07
He could not forgive me or he could forgive me, right? So how do we love our neighbor?
01:06:14
Well, first of all, when we sin against them, we confess and ask for forgiveness. Second of all, when they sin against us, we forgive them.
01:06:23
He has given us the fruits of the spirit, which would be loving, which would be joy, which would have peace, long suffering, patience, right?
01:06:32
This is how we love our neighbor. And guess what? You're going to mess up. Probably less than me, probably more than me.
01:06:42
But when you do, confess, repent. If someone messes up against you, forgive.
01:06:49
Hmm. So, so for anybody that's watching on Facebook, we're responding to a person that's commenting on YouTube right now and succeeded by force.
01:07:00
I'm going to just say this straight up again. You were actually talking exactly about what we have just already discussed.
01:07:07
You've just said there is no there. So let me read this for everyone. No one is believing in the name of Jesus more than me.
01:07:15
I believe he has given his life for me to reinherit my throne of David. There is no greater faith in Jesus than me.
01:07:25
Pietism, pietism, pietism. You're looking at your own fruit. Brother, you're wrecking the car.
01:07:31
You are. Let me be clear in this because you made mention of this earlier too. There is not a plurality of gospels that save different types of people.
01:07:39
Ephesians chapter two makes this very, very clear. He has broken down the dividing wall that had separated you and Gentile and he's made both groups into one new man.
01:07:49
And the gospel that is, there's no distinction between Jew nor Gentile for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.
01:07:56
And our faith has to be placed in the finished work of what Christ has done. And there is no future different type of salvation for a future different type of group of people.
01:08:07
Anyone that is going to be saved tomorrow is the same way that anyone was saved yesterday, including Abraham, Moses and Noah.
01:08:13
That is by faith in Yahweh and what he has done for us in our place, what he has done on our behalf.
01:08:23
And you, sir, have already, and I'm not going to hold you to what you're saying on these comments.
01:08:28
And I don't know you personally, but you need to repent and believe in the gospel because if you do have already repented and believed in the gospel, you need to continue to have faith in that because that is what justifies you is what the gospel is, not what you are doing today.
01:08:43
And I'm sorry, but what you are describing in here is a false gospel. And I have not.
01:08:50
I made a statement earlier. You're never more like a Pharisee than when you look into your own fruit, whether you are acting like a
01:08:57
Pharisee right now. And we've already told you that you can come on our podcast, our video, but you refuse to come on and show your face.
01:09:06
We're not going to have you on just your voice. We love to talk to you. We love to have, I mean, me and Brayden debate each other.
01:09:13
I mean, if you want to come on here and have a conversation and push and pull, we're all for that.
01:09:20
But you got to show your face. And that goes for anyone that's listening to us.
01:09:28
If you want to come on here and have a conversation, reach out to us. But listen, do not tell me that you don't want people to see your face because,
01:09:40
I mean, if me and Brayden are showing our face and someone clicks on, it's going to look like me and him are debating, which we do.
01:09:50
But then there's a voice that's on there when mine and his lips aren't moving. Like, it's just not going to look right.
01:10:01
Absolutely. Listen, I'm done talking with you.
01:10:09
If you want to have this conversation, you have to come on and show your face. That's it.
01:10:16
All right. So if you click on YouTube and you see the comments, you'll see pietism in its fullest form.
01:10:25
You'll see Phariseeism in its fullest form. And even if you are a
01:10:35
Christian, even if you are a Christian, I don't mind saying that. But man, the way that you're talking,
01:10:42
I really feel like I'm talking to like a Hebrew roots guy, Jehovah's Witnesses or a
01:10:48
Mormon, because it's all about the work. You're a hyper dispensationalist. It's all about the work that you're doing.
01:10:55
Even a Paulinian gospel adherent. That's not good stuff.
01:11:01
You can go on to Open Air Theology and messages on there. And we will have that discussion.
01:11:07
But there has to be some grounds made. And if you are not willing to abide by those grounds, that goes for anybody that comes on this podcast.
01:11:17
If I'm starting to be disrespectful, Jeff kicks me off this podcast. If Jeff starts being disrespectful to me, Hafs and I are going to keep on doing this podcast and Jeff needs to step down, right?
01:11:26
That's the reality of it. So if you want to have a decent conversation with us and abide by those rules, we'd be more than happy to have that discussion with you.
01:11:36
But we have talked to you several times about this as you're on here quite often, which I'm very thankful that you're watching it. But you have said in the past that you're not willing to show your face.
01:11:44
You've already had very what's seeming like not understanding stuff in here.
01:11:50
Even when you say that I'm not a theologian, I'm sorry, succeeded by force, but every Christian is a theologian.
01:11:56
Theology means to know God. And so if you're saying you're not a theologian, you are missing the point already.
01:12:04
You're trying to say you're not a theologian, but you're giving your opinion very, very vocally on these comments. And we would love to have you on here.
01:12:09
So please reach out to us on that. Contact us there. And we can try to set something up as long as rules are being obeyed.
01:12:17
Yeah, because I mean, like, if you're being disrespectful, all I got to do is hit one button and you're gone.
01:12:25
Luckily, I haven't hit that button yet. Or I can just mute you. Like, if you won't let me talk, I can just mute you.
01:12:33
Is that what you've been doing to me, Jeff? Don't go back and listen to Matthew 24.
01:12:39
All you're doing is moving your lips. That's good. That's really good.
01:12:49
All right. Well, any closing remarks dealing with pietism?
01:12:55
Yeah, don't don't be a Pharisee. Look to Jesus. Right. The the
01:13:01
Christian race. Do me a favor.
01:13:08
Get on YouTube and just pull up greyhound race, dog races.
01:13:16
And watch a dog race. Watch that mechanical rabbit pop up and be propelled in front of those dogs.
01:13:25
And watch how those dogs are running toward that rabbit, looking at the rabbit.
01:13:31
They're not focused on anything else. They're not focused on each other. They're not focused on the camera. They're not focused on the crowds or focus on the rabbit.
01:13:38
Ladies and gentlemen, that's what the Christian life should be like. You want to bear fruit and keeping with repentance.
01:13:45
Look to Christ. Live your life looking to Christ. The moment you take your eyes off of Christ, you wreck the car and run into another dog.
01:13:57
Look to Christ. It's not up to you. It's not your job to look at yourself for fruit.
01:14:05
You remember I talked about earlier, this is not me and Jesus got our own thing going, but it's corporate.
01:14:12
All right. If you're involved in the local church, your brothers, your sisters will tell you if you're not bearing fruit.
01:14:22
It's their job, right? It's their job to tell you if you're not bearing fruit. It's your job to tell them if they're not bearing fruit.
01:14:31
It's not your job to look at yourself. You look to Christ. Hallelujah.
01:14:38
Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Love it. Hallelujah. Holler back. We love y 'all.
01:14:43
We're so thankful for those that listen to us, who put up with us.
01:14:50
Brayden, will you be on next week? I should be, Lord willing. I think so.
01:14:56
I think so. Okay. All right. Well, maybe, do you want to talk about Devon Simplicity next week?
01:15:10
Maybe. I don't know if I'm ready to tackle that. I mean, again, even if we get on here and just pass it back and forth and just trying to work it out,
01:15:26
I think it'll be fun, right? And just working it out in our mind. We would get accused of being a heretic so fast because there's going to be people out there screenshots of us saying something and it's just like, what in the world?
01:15:38
So some Reformed Baptists are already throwing
01:15:44
James White out the kingdom, which I'm a Reformed Baptist, and I do hold to classical theism, but I'm not going to be throwing people out the kingdom.
01:15:57
That's not how I wrote. James White is very dear to me. Mm -hmm.
01:16:04
But again, but I do hold to classical theism. And so he would disagree with me and that's fine.
01:16:11
He's my brother and I love him. I love him dearly. And so again, we should not make you versus them, them versus us.
01:16:24
We are to love each other. And as for me83, we appreciate you listening and watching.
01:16:32
Yeah, thank you. Appreciate you. All right. Any last words? God bless.
01:16:39
Go in peace. All right. If you're ever in Tallahoma, Tennessee, please come and I'm sure you feel the same way in your area.
01:16:47
Come visit our church, hang out with us. Remember, we're having a conference in February. Stay tuned for that.
01:16:55
Come join us. It's going to be fun. We're going to have an after party. We're going to rent out a little restaurant and have some beer and psalm singing and hymn singing.