Two Kingdom vs One Kingdom

All right, well, welcome everyone to another edition of Theology Throwdown. So here's the question. How much should Christians be involved in the world they live in? We know that we live with dual passports, but how much should we get involved in the things of this world?

How much are we involved in the culture? How much are we involved in the politics? How much do we say versus how much do we just go hands off like this world is fading away and we're citizens of a far country and so we're going to focus our energies there.

So that's really what we're going to be talking about as we think of two kingdom theology and what is two kingdom theology, what is one kingdom theology, and how does this play out in the lives of everyday believers like you and me and all of us.

And so with me tonight is going to be this panel of other Christian podcast community podcasters. So first, let me have Colleen introduce herself. Colleen, would you like to introduce yourself and talk about your podcast?

Hi, my name is Colleen Sharp and I host The Theology Gals podcast. Excellent.

And Jeremy, how about you, sir? Hello. Yeah, I'm Jeremy Howard. I am one of the hosts of the Do Theology podcast, and I am coming to you live from Utah. Excellent.

Greetings from South Carolina. And Eve, hello. Hi, I'm Eve Franklin and I co-host the Are You Just Watching podcast in which we talk about biblical context of secular movies and other entertainment.

Christ and Culture, the Church, and the Kingdoms

All right. So already a source for Christ and culture. And Nathaniel.

Yeah, I'm Nathaniel Jolly. I am the host of Truth Be Known podcast, which is an apologetic dealing with the dangers of the charismatic doctrine and pastor of Homer Reformed Baptist Church here in Alaska.

Excellent. And I am Anthony Russo. And I am the co-host now that my wife has joined me on Grace and Peace Radio, which is a weekly Christian living podcast. And we just cover kind of basic Christian living.

We talked about cheerfulness a couple weeks ago. We just did a two-part series on reconciliation. So those kinds of things. So with that, let me ask you this. What if someone on Twitter, it's a real popular thing to say, explain it to me like I'm five.

Whatever the thing is, somebody was talking about as we're recording this GameStop stock is in the news and people were misunderstanding what short, shorting is and all that. So they would say, explain it to me like I'm five.

So let me throw this out to the group. Let's say I don't know anything about Two Kingdom theology. And I say, explain it to me like I'm five. Now that might be an oversimplification, but who wants to take a crack at a basic definition of Two Kingdom theology?

I think I could do it. I think a basic definition is God rules the whole world. R. Scott Clarke uses a two-fold kingdom instead of two kingdoms to kind of make the point that they aren't separate, fully separate.

But God is ruler of the whole world and he rules in two ways. So the church is different than the state. You'll see as opposed to one Kingdom theology that wants to transform the culture to make it more Christian, we would see a Two Kingdom theology would see more of a distinction between the church and the culture.

Excellent. And anyone have anything else that they would add to that? As I was doing my research, what I found, and I'll just explain it as best I can understand it, is if you want to think of it also along the lines of a linear spectrum, maybe on one far end you have, say, theonomy, which really wants to change the culture and also have the culture run with the laws of civil Israel.

And then you've got this Kuyperian view, Abraham Kuyper view of this One Kingdom view where no, it's not the laws that apply to national Israel, but we do want to see, say, the Ten Commandments or some sort of scriptural governance of the society, the civil realm.

And then you've got really another distinction where you get into this Two Kingdom aspect where there is the spiritual kingdom of God, but then also there's this civil realm. And the civil realm really is, it's not even governed remotely by any kind of special revelation.

It's governed pretty much by its own laws that men and women make up. Colleen, is that a fair explanation of a rough draft?

Yeah, I don't know if I would have said exactly what you did about their own laws. In that, you gave the extremes. I thought that was actually really good going from the extreme theonomy to then neo-Calvinism or Kuyper's view.

And then even within all of these, whether you talk to a theonomist or a neo-Calvinist, which is Kuyper's view, or you talk to someone in the Two Kingdoms, there's even extremes in that. So I think there's probably extremes within Two Kingdoms.

I mean, you've got Lutheran and Reformed. That may differ on how much our faith influences our politics. And, you know, it's not just man-made. Obviously, even Two Kingdom people are fighting against abortion for a reason.

We would still fight against the things that are contrary to God's law, because our faith influences what we do in the kingdom of the left. Yeah, yeah.

And I think you're right about that. One of the things I read was that there's sort of a further view in the Two Kingdom realm where there is this distinction. So, yeah, I probably blended those two. But so let me ask this more generally to open it up to the group.

If you weren't using theological labels, how would you see the Christians' involvement in society to be? So, in other words, I don't want you to feel like, oh, I don't know what Two Kingdom theology is.

I haven't read up on it. I don't know who Abraham Kuyper was or whatever. Don't worry about that. Put that off to the side. In very simple terms, how do you see the Christian involvement in society? How does God want us to live and act and influence, if at all, the society that we're in?

I think the first thing we have to confess is that it's extremely difficult to be consistent. So we have a general broad strokes view, each one of us, and they're probably all very closely aligned. But there are certain areas where we start talking about what we desire as Christians in the culture and in the government.

We start sounding like theonomists, even though we're not theonomists, because we believe certain things so sincerely. And we want to see realities in our culture that we can almost start sounding like we believe in the implementation of Old Testament civil laws.

If we're taking a reform view of the law, that aspect of the law should start being enforced in our society. And then there are other things where we say, yeah, we don't want anything to do with those civil laws that Israel is subject to.

And so I think the first thing we have to confess is that it's really hard for any of us to be consistent straight down the line. If you are a through and through theonomist, that is probably a very consistent position.

And if you're a through and through, keep the kingdom separate totally, or the twofold aspect of the kingdom, keep them away from each other to where they don't touch. That's probably more consistent.

But anywhere in between, we're going to end up being inconsistent. I think we have to be OK with that, just as we're being honest as Christians. We just have to be OK with that. So for me, that's one of the first things that comes to mind.

I think that's a great point. I just finished reading a biography of the Cambridge pastor, Charles Simeon, and he was very careful to instruct his pastoral candidate students that it really is a matter of expediency in applying the practical wisdom of God in situations, that in some situations, this makes sense.

In some situations, this makes sense. You know, it's answer a fool according to his folly. Don't answer a fool according to his folly. So even though there are differences there, we might call them inconsistencies, that it's OK.

We're free to have that. God gives us those guardrails, and then we operate within those guardrails.

Well, one thing I'd like to say, because I don't think I made it clear before, but in answering your current question, I'm so sorry my dog is barking, is that as a Reformed Christian, believing that the law is useful in different ways, it shows us our sin, it drives us to Christ, it shows us how we are to live as Christians, one of the things we talk about is the civil use of the law.

And so even as somebody that doesn't want to see this combination of church and state and the government to be made a Christian government, I do believe that the laws that God has given us are useful for, and I'm speaking specifically of the moral law, are useful specifically for ordering society.

I had a conversation with the admins in my group about some people who say the gospel is the only answer. And I said, no, wait, the law is the answer, too. And, you know, there are things in life that I don't want somebody breaking into my house, and I'm not going to say the gospel is the only answer to keep that from happening.

I also will say, no, the law is the answer, too. Somebody does that, they should be penalized, there should be a law against that, and so on.

Eve, you deal with movies on your podcast and how they impact society and what they're trying to influence society with, their views and morals and so on. How do you see this?

That's a loaded question. I feel that God's law is perfect, and that he's sovereign, so it's really hard to divide the secular from the spiritual completely, because God is ultimately in control. So I guess in that way, I don't know whether that falls under one kingdom or two kingdoms, because I don't really understand the terminology there, but I think as Christians, we are supposed to influence the world for God and Christ and the gospel, however God calls us to do that.

And God has a calling on each of our lives, so we follow that calling where God leads us, and if that calling is into politics, then we apply our Christian morals as best we can to whatever we're doing, whether that's pastoring a church or being a lawyer or being a graphic designer, or I like to think of somebody was saying once that, sorry, I just lost my train of thought, but if you can be a Christian everywhere you are, and God doesn't call us to be a missionary always as, you know, like spreading the gospel in a particular place, which some of you are pastors, so I understand that is your calling, but some of us are not pastors and God called us to a different ministry.

And our ministry as Christians is wherever God puts us in whatever profession that is, and so there should be Christian politicians, there should be Christian lawyers, there should be Christian school teachers, there should be Christian, whatever, whatever God calls you to do, you should be a Christian in that position, and you shouldn't separate your spiritual morality, your spiritual well-being, your spiritual imperative from what you are doing in the quote unquote real world, or the secular world.

They shouldn't be divided, they should influence each other. I don't know whether that made sense.

What you said makes a lot of sense. I feel like maybe I wasn't clear. In Two Kingdom Theology, you just described the doctrine of vocation, which is whatever God has called me to do, I will do it well and to the glory of God.

So, I wouldn't believe in a separation, I would agree with everything actually you just said.

Eschatology, Postmillennialism, and the Mission of the Church

So, is anyone here post-millennial? Okay, because I think that's probably at the heart of all this. I don't know how much that is part of the conversation that you desire.

Well, do me a favor, since you brought that up, two things. One, answer the question for yourself. Now I'm curious. And two, for our viewers and listeners, help us understand why did you ask that? How does a post-millennial view tie into this?

Help explain that, because I think that's a really good point.

Yeah, so I'll go ahead and out myself. I'm a dispensational pre-millennialist. So, pick up your tomatoes and stones or whatever else you have and virtually toss them. Yeah, so basically, for super broad strokes purposes and for this conversation, pre-millennialists and amillennialists see the world as basically in a not great state and not going to get better state leading up to the return of Christ.

Pre-millennialists, of course, believe things are getting worse and worse, leading up to a great tribulation. Well, dispensational pre-millennialists, leading up to a great tribulation, which will be the worst time on earth as far as God pouring out his judgment on the face of the earth.

And the things you read about in Revelation 4 to 18 are taking place, and it's going to get really bad before the return of Christ to establish a 1 ,000-year reign on the face of the earth. Amillennialists believe that, metaphorically, we are experiencing the kingdom along with the tribulation at the same time in the here and now.

And the next thing on God's calendar is the return of Christ, and the times of tribulation and times of kingdom reign are going to keep happening. It's perpetual until that return, in which case, or at what time, Jesus will establish his final reign over all things in the new heavens and new earth.

And post-millennialists, differing from those two, radically see the world getting better and better, that the tribulation has taken place in history in the first century, and there is no time of great tribulation.

And what's now happening is either, depending on the post-millennialists, a literal 1 ,000-year period of Christ's reign or a metaphorical millennial reign of Christ, where he's building his church and Christianizing the world leading up to his return so that all cultures and all governments will be submitting to Christ.

And their role, then, as church members, the view that the church should have from that perspective, is being the instrument in God's hand, not just to evangelize individually, but to bring about Christianization of cultures and kingdoms globally.

And if you believe in post-millennialism, you are really going to be excited about the Christianization of cultures and kingdoms. If you're pre-millennial or all-millennial, you're saying, I don't think that's what's going on leading up to the return of Christ.

And so the mission that we have in mind, as far as the stewardship of our ministry, the mission will be radically different.

Excellent. I really put you on the spot with that. And you really did a great job of presenting all of those views. And even the middle one, the all-millennial view, which is the correct one. I would agree with that.

Hey, that's good that you're also showing where you are. That's good. Get all the cards out on the table.

I just wanted to be, in all fairness, I thought, you know what, I can't put him on the hot seat and not own up to it. But I do love all, and I have no problem. To me, it's not a big thing. So Nathaniel, how about you, sir?

What are your thoughts on all of this so far? What are your thoughts on this two-kingdom aspect and how Christians are to be in this world and so on?

Yeah, you know, I think how it plays out in your life has a lot to do with your eschatological view. Especially, I think, if you're a post-millennialist, is where we see major stuff happening right now.

I cover charismatic stuff mostly in my podcast. And this is something that is really big in the charismatic church, the idea of what they call the seven-mountain mandate. Effectively, there's this idea that they can transform all these areas of culture and basically turn it into a kingdom culture.

They can turn it into a fully Christianized thing. So, for instance, one of the mountains is the media mountain. And so, you know, the charismatic movement would encourage Christians to go into the media realm.

So maybe you're a TV producer or whatever. And then with the hopes that you can turn all of Hollywood into a Christian Hollywood kind of thing. And eventually, you transform so much of society in all these areas that, well, now you have laid the foundation for Christ's return because things are all better, so to speak.

And you got variations of that. I think if you're post-millennial right now, you might be a little depressed with everything that's going on because facts aren't adding up with the theology there, at least for the moment.

I am not a post-millennial myself. So, yeah, I think for the average person, I'm thinking about questions that I get as a pastor and things that have come up in our church. People aren't coming up and saying, is my eschatological view wrong?

They're wanting real answers to real questions. You know, as Christians, should we be totally depressed that Joe Biden and baby murdering administration is in power now? Should we be, you know, overthrowing things?

Should we be out rioting, picketing? What's our response to those things? And I don't remember who touched on this earlier, if it was Colleen or Eve. But I would just reiterate Colossians 3 as a general principle to answer the question, how do we respond to things?

And 323, whatever you do, do your work heartily as for the Lord and not for people. And so if you happen to be a schoolteacher, then, you know, you serve as a teacher unto the glory of God. You are a Christian who happens to be a schoolteacher.

Right. And so principally, I think we, you know, I don't believe that we should be trying to transform the culture as our end goal. Right. I think that we will see people transformed as we proclaim the gospel and as we see those people who God has called to himself come to Christ.

Right. I think that's how we affect things. We preach the gospel. We see people transformed. Those people, because they love Christ, desire to be obedient to him. And that's where we see transformation rather than trying to create, you know, a heaven on earth, as it were.

I think scripture is pretty clear. Post-millennialism is clearly wrong. Although I love those brothers and sisters, things are going to progressively get worse here, I think. And we see that. Right. So, yeah.

For whatever that's worth. That's where I try to focus people on is be faithful where you are. I mean, maybe the Christian nationalism thing that Beth Moore, she's at least she's the first one that I heard that term from.

Maybe we'll get into that at some stage in how we deal with Christians and politics and Christians and other things. I would just say this, regardless of views, if once we've come to put our faith in any kind of system, right, for our salvation, for our betterment, we've effectively made an idol.

So right now, I think politics has been exposed as a big idol for a lot of people on both sides of the aisle. Christians, non-Christians. We expect that from non-Christians, but it's been big in the Christian realm.

It always is at election time, but I think this has been far more than I've ever seen. People tend to forget our president is not the king. We have one king, and that's Christ. We serve him, and God sets up kings, and he takes them down, and he's in control, and he's sovereign, and so we live like that.

I like the Pilgrim's Progress when we talk about how we respond to the world around us. I love the idea of John Bunyan's Pilgrim. We're on a pilgrimage to the Celestial City. This is our temporary home.

This is not our end goal. So that's my view.

One of the things I just thought about listening to you, Nathaniel, was a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. And one of the reasons why I bring that up, but we talked about the abortion issue briefly, is that as Christians, we have to oppose the murder of children, and that is a stance that we want to have.

Sorry. That is an issue that we want to stand up for politically, but if we enforce our position on that by rule of law, all it does is get turned over every administration. So we'll have a pro-life president pass laws and whatever, and then the next time a pro-choice president or pro-abortion president is in office, then all of that gets flipped around.

The only way we can actually impact the culture against abortion is one person at a time, talking to them. The picketing in front of pro-abortion centers and talking to people and praying for people and doing ministries to people who work in abortion clinics and that kind of stuff where you're actually changing hearts and minds.

That's how we deal with the abortion issue in our country because legislating it is never going to correct it because you're not convincing people why it's wrong, you're just telling them to stop doing it.

And I think that our Christian walk influences people better when we work on the hearts and minds, when we pray for revival, and we pray for the gospel to touch people because it's the gospel that changes lives and hearts.

It's not rules and laws that people are forced to follow because then there's always that resistance because they're not really convinced that what we hold as truth is actual truth because they're not convinced in their hearts, they're just being forced.

And so when we try to turn politics into the hammer with which we hammer people over the heads with our views and what we think is right and what we believe to be right based on scripture, we aren't convincing anybody, we're just creating this antagonism that divides the culture.

I had a really interesting conversation. This was four years ago when Trump was initially elected with a liberal who lived on the west coast and she was actually interested in having conversations with people who didn't believe what she believed and we had a very open conversation in which we talked about a lot of these issues that were just directly opposed on and she went in thinking that I was, you know, a really stubborn hard nosed bigoted person who she wouldn't be able to find common ground with and as we chatted we actually found common ground and we were able to even talk about abstinence and what preventatives there were for abortion, other than using abortion as birth control, which is what our culture uses it for now.

And we had a really good discussion in which she explained how she was fearful about what Trump was going to do in office and I was really impressed that to be able to talk to somebody who I was completely opposed with and actually convince her of where I was coming from, and that it wasn't hate and it wasn't bigotry and all of this.

And that's what we need to do is more one on one conversations with people where we're able to instead of yelling at each other from opposite sides of the room, we explain to them what our positions are instead of trying to rule them like people who don't care.

We actually talk to the hearts of the matters in the hearts of the people. So no, I don't think that that the US is going to be some major portion of theology and the end times or, you know, people who try to make Trump's presidency into something biblical and prophets coming out and saying this and that and that just makes Christianity look bad, in my opinion, because when it doesn't come true.

Then they all say, well, they lump all the Christians together and say you all are idiots. And so we need to be very careful how we apply politics to scripture, not necessarily scripture to politics.

Abortion, Politics, and the Limits of Legislation

Anyone want to tackle that? I mean, you brought up a lot of good points there.

Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of stuff in that. I might push back a little bit on some of your terminology. We need to be clear. Abortion is not a political issue. It's a moral issue, right? Homosexuality.

Yeah. So, so just just a terminology. I knew you meant that there. I, I might differ with you a little bit in that I think that we have the responsibility to come against evil in every way we are able to.

So I've lived overseas and in some countries you don't get to vote. You have more of a, you know, a dictatorship type thing. And so, you know, scripture talks to how you respond to rulers and things like that.

In America, you have the opportunity to vote. I don't think you have to biblically. I think it's a responsible thing to do. And if we can stop the murder of children by passing laws, I don't actually care who doesn't like that.

I'm not trying to make the person who can no longer murder their child feel good about anything. I want to save the life of the child. Now, I agree with you. I just, I would just add that that's one way that we can do what's right and do what's good.

Now, I'm also not for guys picketing in front of places and I don't think Christians need to be marching and doing all that. I'm 100 about Christians being in front of murder clinics who are talking to people, praying for people, giving solutions so that they don't have to murder their children, calling them to repentance.

But I think we can deal with that in all of those issues. You know, if it were illegal to, I don't think it's ever going to happen. Let me just be clear. The reason abortion is still the law of this land is because both political parties want it.

And I don't think anyone with any common sense can argue with that. But if it were to be illegal, I think that'd be a great thing. And then we'd have other problems to deal with. But it would be better than what we have now.

And I'm not opposed to it making it illegal. I'm just saying that with the way our system is set up, it would be illegal for four years and or eight years and then it would be the next administration would overturn that rule.

It would just keep being a being a jockey back and forth over, you know, like a political ping pong ball. So, no, I agree with you. It's not a political matter. But the only way we're actually going to change the culture is one heart and mind at a time.

I don't think that passing laws, as much as I would prefer there be a law against abortion, I don't think that actually solves the problem. We have to be tackling that problem through the gospel because it's the gospel that changes people's lives.

And once God opens their eyes to murder is wrong, then they won't do it and they won't support it. But passing the law, even if we could ever pass that law, it would not stay on the books. It would get removed with the next administration.

So it just becomes a political ping pong ball. And that was my point.

You know, just to maybe offer a different perspective. So full disclosure here, and none of you probably know this, but I have been involved in politics for a long time. Not as much the last few years, but I did work on the McCain campaign, and a lot of other campaigns, especially at the state level.

One of the things we're called to as Christians is to love God and neighbor. And that influences things that I fight for politically. We actually have seen some good things in regards to abortion legislation at the state level, which is a great way to go with it, where we've seen abortion clinics closed down in great numbers in the states and things like that, just as an encouragement to our audience.

Because I know what you're saying is true, Eve, that Trump cut off certain abortion funding and now Biden's going to sign it back and provide our tax dollars for abortions and things like that. But there are things that we can do.

But I even think about, just on a more practical level, on that one reason I fight against abortion is because it's morally wrong and because I'm to love my neighbor. But even in a political, explaining how this plays out, I'm against the $15 minimum wage that Biden wants because I love my neighbor.

Because I think, in my opinion, that it will cause the destruction of small businesses and it will increase unemployment and things like that. So that would be my reason for fighting for certain things.

And I think a lot of people don't realize that there are a lot of things that we can do. A lot of times at the state level, D .C. seems very far away and we're not going to influence much. But there are things we can do, even on things like abortion and other things like that.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't be politically active. I believe we live in a government for the people, by the people, and we should be voting and we should be active in politics.

I guess my point was that we don't actually change the culture until we influence people on a one-on-one basis. That's changing hearts and minds for Christ.

I agree with you on that. I really like what Nathaniel said earlier. We go into culture and preach the gospel.

Jeremy, do you want to weigh in on this? Yeah, so what Eve was saying about basically addressing the root and not just the fruit of the matter is obviously super important. Since none of us are theonomous, it sounds like we all take the view of really communicating the gospel clearly to individual human hearts and seeing lives changed individually and making a change that way instead of creating just a mere framework that doesn't actually have an eternal impact on human souls.

All of us prioritize where human souls are going to spend eternity over something that may be more temporary. But of course, to Nathaniel's point, it really doesn't matter what people think. We need to save lives, too.

It's a tough balance. It's a difficult balance. And where it gets really tricky is where do we draw the line on what moral issues we're going to seek to impose on the culture at large? Abortion is one where we're pretty much all on the same page, I believe, as a Christian church truly saves people.

We all agree that we should stop the genocide of our infants. But where do we stop with those laws that we seek to impose? No fault divorce. How hard are we going to go after that one? And there are a whole bunch of other ones, too, that you could throw out there and say, well, what are we going to do about it?

Are we just going to sit back or we're going to go for it? I think looping back around to the two kingdom versus one kingdom or twofold kingdom versus one kingdom, however you want to phrase it. That's probably where those of us who are not theonomists have a hard time making our case is where do you stop?

And I don't have a great answer, but I love talking about it. And I think we can figure it out in the liberty that God gives us. And it is going to be different from person to person and church to church.

But we need to seek balance in those things and really think through it instead of just doing what we've always done, because obviously doing what we've always done hasn't benefited the American church all that much.

You know, just a few thoughts. These are all great, great things that you're all sharing. Colleen, I didn't mention that before. I said that to Jeremy, but I really appreciated what you said as well. I think it also goes back to what Colleen had mentioned earlier.

And I think it might have been Eve, as far as a theology of work and that, you know, we think of if it weren't for those that God called to certain positions to try to go right to the culture, right to the government to affect change, some things would have taken much longer.

I think of William Wilberforce in England and almost singularly looking to stop slavery in England. Now, granted, yes, he had a lot of Christians behind him praying for him and supporting him and so on.

But he was basically, as I understand it, just one man affecting that change, you know, really. And it took a long time. Someone not in politics. Think of Amy Carmichael, missionary to India, who was really key in affecting the laws of sati, I think it's called, where the wives were burned alive when the husbands died.

She worked hard to get that changed. And I know there were other missionaries who did as well. But, again, it was affecting change there. So it is, you know, I think it is that both thing. If you're in a position that you have authority, you have ability, rather, to affect the change, then by all means use that opportunity that God has given.

But a lot of it is that one-to-one conversation with people and affecting lives one-to-one. Another thing that Jeremy mentioned about this as far as, well, it just kind of reminded me of it too, was as I was reading about this, Jack Kinnear, he's a professor, I believe.

I know. I forgot to write his title down, so I apologize. But I heard a podcast that he was on, and he talks about the idea that as Christians, what you don't hear a lot of pastors doing is taking this approach of that this world is Christ.

And that ultimately it's not so much even addressing the moral issue of whatever the thing is, but it's speaking out and saying this world is Christ. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords. What you are putting forth or what you are supporting is in direct contradiction with the word of God, with what God desires, with what God says about the case of abortion, human life, the sanctity of human life, and so on.

And ultimately saying that you will stand before God in judgment, and the wrath of God is upon you right now for what it is that you're promoting and supporting. And that he makes the point that that is what Christians ought to be doing.

That is what pastors ought to be doing in society, and we just don't do that. What do you think about that? Is that what we should be doing? Should we really be going full Psalm 2, as it were, against the leaders and the politicians at maybe even the local, the state, national level?

Divine Sovereignty, Common Grace, and Christian Responsibility

One of the things that can get easily missed when we talk about stewardship issues is the divine sovereignty aspect of all this. I'm not sure where we all are on Calvinism spectrum. I suspect we'd all probably call ourselves Calvinistic in the least.

And it is a paradox of human responsibility, Christian responsibility, and divine sovereignty. Like common grace is a big part of this conversation, how God is in control of all the matters of this world.

He's fully involved, fully in control, leading this world exactly where he wants it to go. All the days are written in his book, and there were yet none of them. And so it's all going the way he wants it to go.

And if we think we're going to Christianize the world and we go out and try, but God doesn't will for it to happen, it's not going to happen. And if we say, yeah, it's not really our role, but God wills for it to happen, he's going to make it happen.

So it's up to him. And so really at the end of the day, it is deciding with wise counsel that we have access to in our local churches, from wise teachers, all from the word of God. What it is that God has us doing individually, whether that's super small scale stuff, just worried about our family and our local church, and don't think outside of that.