Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 2

The Trinity and the Need for a Clear Definition

As-salamu alaykum, Shaykh.

Wa alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullah.

It's good to see you again.

I was just looking at this flyer about the Dean Show.

Well, that's why we're here.

I got some more good news for you.

Tell me.

We got another good topic and we'd like to bring you back on to cover it.

Alright, it sounds great.

Wait a minute.

What's the topic this time?

The Trinity.

The Trinity?

Okay, let's go talk about the Trinity. That's a good idea.

Now, as we begin listening to this Yusuf Estes presentation, if I were appearing on a program and I were being asked to define Tawheed, Shahada, anything in regards to Islam, don't you begin by giving an official, clear, credible, understandable definition of what it is that you're talking about?

Even when you disagree with it, you still start with a meaningful definition, right? Listen and see if we ever get an accurate, even semi-accurate, even understandable definition of the doctrine of the Trinity in this presentation.

And if you're going to go through what the Quran says about a certain topic, should you not show that you truly know what the testimony of that book is? There is only one text that is dealt with at all in this text, and it's the Kama Yohanim.

In this presentation, it's the Kama Yohanim. It's 1 John 5, 7, which is not the basis of the doctrine of the Trinity in any way, shape, or form. And so listen as Yusuf Estes presents the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Problem of Defining the Trinity

Welcome back to the Detail. I'm your host, Eddie.

Now, you coming from a Christian background, you, your father who knew the Bible very well, he was also a minister, I'm sure you can really help give some insight to this topic, the Trinity.

When we talk about the Trinity, this is not really three gods. This is one of the things that the folks who criticize the Catholic Church, they're the ones who really came up with this idea to start with.

And then subsequently, any churches that broke off from the Catholic Church, those who protested or Protestants, they carried that forward as well. But there are those who criticize the Trinity, not realizing how this all came about.

It's not fair.

Now, at the beginning anyways, there was reason to be somewhat hopeful because I appreciate the fact that he said, well, even though he said the Trinity started with the Catholic Church, and I don't think that he really understands what that means.

I mean, that was certain terminology they used themselves, but most people today identify Catholic with Roman Catholic, and there's a lot of differences between the two, obviously. But what was just said there about needing to be fair, that it's not three gods, even though later he's going to quote from the Koran, it says don't say three, I'm not sure how it works, but up to this point, it's like, yeah, this is starting off well, but it's only been about 30 seconds, and that's about as long as the good part lasted.

And then there are those who claim to be Unitarians because they say we believe in the unity of God as one. And then the Trinitarians, of course, are saying that God is one, but, right away, real fast, but there are three natures to God, or there are three parts within one, or the demonstration that I gave about the finger, when you can move it like that.

One Being, Three Persons

Since Eusebius isn't going to give us a meaningful definition of the doctrines of Trinity, maybe I should so we can compare it with what he says. Here's a basic definition. These slides I have used for over a decade, traveling in churches around the United States, Great Britain, Italy, and so this is not something I made up just for this.

This is a common definition. Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons, notice the difference between those two words, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Please notice, within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons. Being and person are plainly being differentiated in this definition. This is a historic, orthodox definition of the doctrine of the Trinity.

We must allow the words to say what they say. There is a vital distinction being made here. Being and person are different things. Being is what makes something what it is. Person is what makes someone who they are.

We are not saying there are three beings that are one being. We are not saying 1 plus 1 plus 1 equals 3. We are making the same distinction that we make in all of our language between being and person.

We are human beings, but we are also an individual person. We do not use those two terms as being synonymous. So we are saying that there is one being of God and that that being is shared fully and completely by three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc., etc. This is one of the most common misconceptions, most common misunderstandings that even Muslims have. The Trinity is not saying that there are three beings who are one being, nor three persons who are one person.

We believe there is one being, eternal and unlimited, shared by three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father, they are distinguishable, and yet they share the one being that is God.

This is the doctrine of the Trinity that will never be defined by Eusebius in his presentation.

The Trinity, the Old Testament, and the Incarnation

So, how did one become three? Let's ask it like that, because in fact, the Old Testament, the Bible, the Jewish belief, and so on, even until today, God is one. There's no consideration for anything else, and there's not two, not three, not four, it's one.

So, Abraham, did Abraham ever utter this word, Trinity, or Moses, or Noah?

As far as uttering the word Trinity, the word is Latin. None of them spoke the Latin language, they wouldn't have used it anyway. And as far as that goes, the word Trinity itself is not found in any of the scriptures, not even in the Apocrypha, you don't find this word.

Now, notice the phraseology, how did one become three? Well, actually, one has remained one. Christians are monotheists, we believe there is only one true being of God. But why then do we speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, sharing that one name of Yahweh of the Old Testament?

It's called the Incarnation. You see, I've never really fully understood why Muslims are so focused on this. Well, did Abraham believe this? No. Why? Because the Incarnation was long after Abraham. You see, God entered into his own creation at a point in time, and it was a point in time after Abraham, and after David, and after Solomon, and so since the proof of the Trinity is the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, then if that happens after their lifetime, then how or why would they use such terminology?

So, Abraham never uses the term, because the Incarnation takes place after his time. Now, that doesn't mean that there are not evidences in the Old Testament of what God was intending to do. There are.

But the actual proof, the revelation of the Trinity, comes in the Incarnation of Christ, one who is called the Son of God. He's not the Father. He's not the Spirit. He clearly differentiates himself from both.

He is not the Father or the Spirit, yet he's worshipped. He is the creator of all things. He's the I Am. And then the pouring forth of the Spirit, who is not the Son, who is not the Father. You have the early apostles being what I call experiential Trinitarians.

They have experienced the Trinity. Think of someone like Peter. He's on the Mount of Transfiguration. He hears the Father speaking from Heaven. He's walked with the Son. He's now indwelt by the Holy Spirit after Pentecost.

He has experienced the very doctrine of the Trinity itself. So, it's not one becoming three. It is one being seen in his threeness in the revelation that takes place in the Incarnation and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.