Equipping Eve: Michelle Lesley Interview

Is the church today doing everything it can to provide women a firm foundation of truth in Christ Jesus?

Well, it's true, there's no shortage of candy -coated Bible studies, potluck fellowships available to ladies.

But beyond Sunday morning, are Christian women being properly equipped to stand against the same deceptions that even enticed

Eve in the garden? In an attempt to address the need for trustworthy, biblical resources for women,

No Compromise Radio is happy to introduce Equipping Eve, a ladies -only radio show that seeks to equip women with fruits of truth in an age that's ripe with deception.

My name is Mike Ebendroth, and I'm pleased to introduce your host, Erin Benzinger, a friend of No Compromise Radio and a woman who wants to see other women equipped with a love for and a knowledge of the truth of God's Word.

Well, hello ladies, and welcome to Equipping Eve. My name is Erin Benzinger, and I am your host, but hey, guess what?

Today I am not alone. I have a treat for you today, and so we aren't going to waste any time with any introductory stuff.

We're going to jump right into the show. So not too long ago, I had an opportunity to speak with Michelle Leslie.

She's a blogger, she's a speaker, women's Bible study leader, and I think many of you are probably familiar with her, and we had a blast having a great conversation about the church and what is the church and what is our role in the church and some other topics along the way, and so I think you're going to love it.

And so, yeah, like I said, let's not waste any time. Let's just jump right into that interview slash conversation, and we're just going to take it away from there.

Okay, ladies, today we have a special treat. Today with me is blogger and women's

Bible teacher, Michelle Leslie. Michelle blogs at michelleslesliebooks .com, and there you can find insightful articles about a host of theological topics and issues of discernment, and one of my favorite resources is

Michelle's Bible studies that she has written and provides to us for free. So Michelle, welcome to Equipping Eve.

Well, thank you so much. It's great to be here. I'm glad we were finally able to get together. We've been talking about this for a while, and I've just been looking forward to it because I am a faithful listener of Equipping Eve, and every time

I listen, I find myself just sort of virtually co -hosting with you. I remember there was one episode

I was listening to when you would make a statement and then you would say, right, and I would go, right, and you know what else, blah, blah, blah.

So we've done this before, just you weren't aware of it. I hope that's not too creepy or anything. No, no, that totally works.

That's fine. But yes, I do have an online women's discipleship ministry, and I'm so glad to hear you say that you like the

Bible studies best because those are my favorite too. I love to write Bible studies, and there are other issues of discipleship that we deal with on the blog and just try to equip women and build women up to, as I was telling a pastor the other day, the verse that says that we're to submit to our leaders so that they can lead with joy instead of with groaning.

I'm trying to equip and build up women so that they can cause their pastors joy and not groaning.

So I kind of see that as my central focus, but primarily I'm a wife and a mom, and I enjoy serving my husband and my children and my church, and I see that as my first priority, and then

I do my other ministry and my leftover time. So that's me. Well, that's fantastic, and I'm trying to figure out where that leftover time comes from.

You have to scramble for it sometimes, but I love it. Well, it's easy to find the time when we enjoy what we're doing,

I think. So it's a little bit easier. So what got you started writing? What made you start the blog?

Can you just tell us a little bit about that? Sure. I think it was in 2008 when

I started, and I've just always enjoyed writing. It's the way that I think. It's the way that I process things.

I feel like I'm a much better writer than I am a speaker, although I enjoy speaking too, and I love doing podcasts and speaking engagements and things like that.

But as far as processing things for the way I think, writing has just always been my creative outlet.

I used to write a lot of poetry and songs and things like that. But then just with teaching and discipleship, that's kind of how

I got started. And so it's just always been the way that I work out my thoughts and the way that I teach, because that's the way that God has wired me.

He's wired me to be really more of a writer than a thinker, or that he's wired me to be a writer in the way that I think.

Yeah, thinking on paper. Exactly. Exactly. So you can tell what I'm talking about. I do writing much better than I do talking things.

Not at all. Not at all. So that's how I got started, and I started seeing a real need for women to understand the truths of scripture and to understand the ...

There's a real need for a lot of women out there to understand the basics of Christianity. This is what a

Christian is. This is what a Christian is not. This is what Christians do. This is what Christians do not do. This is what

Christians believe. This is not what Christians believe. Sort of a first -gen approach. And so I started going that direction, and that's kind of where I am right now with discipleship writing.

Oh, that's fantastic. I have to say, I love your blog, and what I appreciate most about your writing is that you're so accessible, because you can tell that you're writing ...

It's like talking to you. The way that you write is like you're sitting there having a conversation, and so I really appreciate that, because that just makes it really accessible,

I think, especially for us ladies. Sometimes if you have a lecturer coming at you with ...

Hi, above you. They're standing above you. You're thinking, oh, I'm never going to get it, but there you are.

You're one of us, and you're not trying to set yourself above, and so that makes it easy to learn from you, so thank you for that.

I appreciate it. Oh, good. Yeah. I'm not smart enough to write above people. That's true. I don't know about that.

Another one of the reasons that I write is because I need what

I'm writing, so a lot of times what I'm writing is just as much to me as everybody else.

I wrote something for New Year's, but part of it talked about having your prayer time and being dedicated to having your prayer time, and I've been struggling in my prayer time lately, and so I was trying to remind myself of what

I know from Scripture to be true about prayer and to teach myself and get myself back on track about prayer.

Well, that's so important that we can know as readers that you're struggling with the same things that we might be struggling with, and I'm the same way when

I write. Oftentimes, if you see me preaching, quote, unquote, to someone, either whether it's on the podcast or on my blog, it's probably because that's something that I'm working through myself that I'm reminding myself of, so I totally get that.

It helps us ladies to be able to know that we're not alone in those struggles, right? Right.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, something that we wanted to talk about, we were chit -chatting a little bit the other day, and something that has providentially been on both of our minds lately is this issue of the church, and it's funny that you just said that you feel like sometimes women have to be reminded of the basics, and the reality is sometimes we do.

We tend to set certain things aside and say, oh yeah, I know about the church. I know what the church is and what my role is, but do we?

Are we practically living that out, or are we just kind of agreeing to one thing with our lips that our lives are saying something else?

I think this whole issue of what is the church, what is a healthy church, what is our role within the church, meaning the local assembly with whom we gather week after week, what does that look like?

It was just very interesting to me that the Lord kind of had that on both of our minds, so I think that's worth talking about.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean,

I think that we're starting to see a greater need for women to, not just women, men too, but you and I both work with women, so it's easy to fall into the habit of saying women.

If any men are listening to this, know that this applies to you too, but I think that there's a real need to instruct women and men on the importance of the church and what our approach should be to church.

I think we've gotten into this, especially as Americans, we've gotten into this consumerist mentality that we go to church for what it can do for us, and that's part of it, but that's not the whole idea of church.

That's not what the church exists for. It doesn't exist to give us a particular experience or a particular feeling or to serve us, and there are a lot of other aspects of the church and worship and fellowship with the church that we need to be aware of and we need to focus on.

It's not just for us. Yeah, absolutely, and I agree.

I've seen that same type of mentality, and I don't really know where it comes from.

I think we're tempted to say maybe that's more in the seeker -driven churches, people going for entertainment, but I don't think that it's limited to that demographic at this point.

I think we see that even among the more doctrinally solid crowd.

I don't like the music, so this isn't working for me, or I don't like that the pastor is still in that same book that he's been preaching in for two years, and I already studied that book.

I want to hear something else. Right, right, and you do need to find a church that's a fit for you, but you also need to be flexible because there are a lot of churches out there, or I should say it the other way, there are becoming increasingly fewer and fewer churches that teach sound doctrine, so that's the first thing you have to look for is a church that teaches sound doctrine.

And then if there are some personal preference issues, there may be a reason not to join a particular church that teaches sound doctrine because of those preference issues.

I mean, if you go in, if you're looking at a new church, and you go in every week, and you just hate the style of music they use to the point that you cannot worship, and you're distracted, and you don't look forward to going to church and things like that, maybe there's another doctrinally sound church that's more of a fit for you and your family.

But at the same time, there are fewer and fewer churches that are doctrinally sound, and there are personal preference issues that you may have to put aside in order to join a healthy church.

So there has to be a balance there, and we have to be flexible. But we also need to look for, when we go to churches, we need to look for places to serve.

I think we don't think about that a lot of times, that the church does not just exist to serve us, but when we are good, healthy church members, we are to serve our brothers and sisters in Christ in the church.

So that's really important as well, is to find a church where you can serve and get plugged in and encourage and edify others.

No, that's an excellent point. And all this talk of what is a healthy church, it really comes down to then, what is a healthy church member as well?

What does that look like? Because as the church members, you make up the church, your local assembly.

And so how can we be healthy church members? Has there been something that you see, kind of a pattern, maybe among women or men?

Obviously, these are problems that, like we said, go across the spectrum. Tendencies that you're seeing that are kind of contributing maybe to this consumerist mindset that is then leading to unhealthy churches, because we have unhealthy church members.

Yeah, I think while the internet has been a really good tool to disseminate information, to listen to good preaching and things like that,

I think sometimes people can fall into the idea that, well, if I just listen to a sermon, a good sermon by a good doctrinally sound pastor online, that's church and that's good enough.

And that is not church. That's not something we need to say, well, that's good enough for me and I don't need to join a local church.

There is so much more. While doctrinally sound preaching should be the centerpiece of the worship service, that's not all there is to having a healthy church or to being a church member.

I mean, you can't even really call it being a church member. There's teaching.

There is the fellowship of believers that you associate with. When you have difficult times, there's your

Sunday school class or your friends at church or whatever that can rally around you and maybe help you out in a practical way, pray for you, just be there if you need to call them in the middle of the night or whatever.

And a sermon on the internet can't do that for you. And there are just so many things.

You don't get baptism. You don't get the Lord's Supper. You don't have the opportunity to teach in vacation

Bible school or serve in the nursery. I'm going to do that tomorrow. I'm looking forward to holding babies. And so there are just so many things that you miss out on when you say, well, the internet is good enough and I'll just watch a

John MacArthur sermon or an R .C. Sproul sermon or something like that. That's not your pastor.

That's another thing. You miss out on pastoral care. You know, if I have a problem or if I have a question,

I can go to my pastor and ask him about it and talk to him about it. And he's there for me.

That's what a pastor does. That's part of his job. And when you develop this sort of Lone Ranger Christian mentality that I can just watch a sermon on the internet and I'm done, you miss out on so much and you don't know what you're missing out on.

That's another thing. If you're not, if you've never been plugged into a good local church where you were involved in serving and fellowshipping and all that, you don't know what you're missing out on.

And if you've been out of church for a while, you can forget about those things. So there's just so much more to it than viewing something on a screen.

No, absolutely. And, you know, it's funny when you were talking about you don't get pastoral care. I started thinking you also don't get to see your pastor in his daily life.

You know, you don't get to know his family and see how he interacts with his family and with other members. And that's all part of being that family, you know, being that part of that body.

So, I mean, all of that is so key. But, you know, something that I hear a lot is, you know, it's just there are no good churches nearby.

Right. So, you know, and I think one of the downsides to this whole live stream technology that we have now, while it's wonderful,

I like to tune in maybe to a special service at another church, maybe the Christmas service at John MacArthur's church.

I mean, that's beautiful. Who doesn't love to tune into that? But I think it's very tempting then we can just stay home and we can watch the whole service.

You know, it's not even that we're just tuning into a sermon. We get to watch the whole thing. We can sing along. And even if it's our own church, we're maybe more tempted to stay home, you know, if there's just a slight headache or something, because it's all live streamed anyway.

Or, you know, there's no church within 20 minutes of me. And so I'm just going to live stream this church service and that Sunday morning

I'll call that church. But, you know, how do you feel about that excuse? And I'm going to call it an excuse.

I think of not having a good church nearby. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I hear that every time I write an article about the importance of being involved in a local church.

And so I've done something to try and help that. I've got a tab on my blog that gives resources for looking for a good local church.

On my Facebook page, I have a place where if you're looking for a good local church in your area, you can post a request on a note on my

Facebook page and other readers can look over those requests and go, oh, I know of a good church in your area.

Try such and such a church. Or they can just get on there and, you know, even if it's not solicited, a recommendation isn't solicited, they can get on another note and say, hey, if you're ever looking for a good church in such and such an area, here's one, you know, go check this out.

So I'm trying to help with that. But, you know,

God tells us that we are supposed to be joined to a local church. The New Testament knows nothing of people saying, well, there's not a good local church near me.

I mean, it was much more difficult in New Testament times for people to find a local church because the church was having to hide from persecution.

So, I mean, it was it was difficult when the New Testament was written. And yet God still said, you need to be part of a local body.

And I do feel for people where there's not a local church that is doctrinally sound in their area.

I understand that. I have been the first church my husband and I served was about 45 minutes away from where we lived.

And that particular church, it was a small Baptist church, and it was the only Baptist church in that parish.

We have parishes here instead of counties in Louisiana. So it was the only Baptist church in that parish.

And most of the rest of the parish was Catholic. And so it would have been difficult for people in that area to find a doctrinally sound local church.

But what it really comes down to is, and I know a lot of people will think this sounds harsh and not understanding and not compassionate.

But what it really comes down to is, do you want to obey Scripture or not? And we need to make sure that we are doing everything that we possibly can to obey

Scripture. And I think sometimes when I hear this, like you said, an excuse from people that, well, there's just not a doctrinally sound church in my area.

Sometimes I have to wonder if they have done everything possible to find a local church.

The first thing you need to do is pray. If you want to obey God's Word and you pray that God will give you a way to obey

His Word, He's going to provide a way for you to obey His Word. It may not look like, you know, first Baptist church, big brick building with a steeple on top or whatever.

But it, you know, it may be a church plant or something like that. Or God may move you to another area where there is a doctrinally sound church.

So you've got to really think outside the box. Just because you can't drive five minutes to an established church doesn't mean that there's not a church you can't, that you can join.

And then I think many times people don't check out every single possibility that's within driving distance.

Yeah, none of us want to drive an hour and a half to get to church. And maybe if the church that you find that's good is an hour and a half away, you might need to think about moving.

I mean, it's that important. A lot of people just, they're like, well, I just, it's too far away and I can't move.

So I'm just stuck. Do you want to obey God's Word or do you not want to obey God's Word?

And I realize that it's hard. I understand that. It's hard for me to obey God's Word in a lot of areas of my life.

But God didn't give instructions in His Word and say, you obey this, except if it's difficult.

You know, except if it's not convenient. Obey this within driving distance. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And, you know, when God tells us to do something, He expects us to do it and He equips us to do it.

He provides a way for us to do it. So there are lots of things that can be done.

Another thing that you can do if you don't have a doctorally sound church near you, you can get, I'm Southern Baptist, so I can only speak in terms of what our resources are because I don't know of resources that other denominations might have.

But you can, like, if I'm a Southern Baptist and I'm out in the middle of nowhere and there's not a church there, you know what

I would do? I would call the North American Mission Board and I would, because they're our church planning arm. And I would say, look,

I'm here, I need a church. What can I do? Can you recommend a church? Can you send a church planner out here?

You know, something. I don't know exactly how all that would work, but I would try, you know?

And I think a lot of people, you know, maybe they need to just try a little harder.

Well, and things like that, they're a good starting point, you know? I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, you can go, there are some seminaries and whatnot that have church finders and you can go and it's a starting point.

Maybe that won't be a fit for you or maybe just because that pastor graduated from that seminary doesn't mean everything's going to be fantastic there.

But it is a place to start and we need to make that effort. I mean, I drive an hour for church and that's not always my favorite thing to do.

Last week, I got halfway there and all of a sudden the roads were just completely terrible from snow and, you know,

I didn't know it was going to snow up north there. It wasn't snowing by me when I left, but just the

Lord preserved me through the drive and made it. And, you know, and it was a wonderful time of fellowship and worship with my family.

That's my family at that church. And it's worth the hour drive for the preaching, the exaltation of God's word, and for the people who are there and who care for one another in Christ.

So, yeah, I, you know, I wanted to say amen the whole time you were talking, but I didn't want to be rude.

So, but, you know, I mean, so many of us, we hear the exhortation from Hebrews.

You know, Hebrews 10, 25, do not forsake our own assembling together as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another all the more as you see the day drawing near.

But I think what we don't realize is the verse before it says, let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds.

Well, we can't do that if we are lone rangers, as you call us, sitting at home watching our live stream.

And so it is, it is so critical and God will be faithful to answer that prayer.

Like you said, if it means you end up having to move, He will be faithful in that. And that's, it's hard to trust, but, you know, and it's really easy for us for you and I to sit here and say, well, trust

God in this. And if you end up having to move, you know, just trust God. But really we, we preach it all the time to other people, but when it comes down to executing it ourselves, we need to trust

Him in that. And yeah, He will, He does not want us to be disobedient to His word.

So why would He just leave us hanging out to dry without a church body to fellowship with? Right.

And I think that's something we forget too, is that when these, when these difficult times come our way, that's not a time for us to give up.

That's a time for us to endure. That's a time for us to push through with the Lord's help and with His grace and mercy.

That's how He grows us. If every time a difficult time comes your way, you just sit down and go, oh, well,

I guess I can't obey. Then how are you going to grow? I mean, that's part of the like homework assignments that God gives us.

You know, this is, this is what God does. He brings these things our way to stretch us and grow us and teach us to depend on Him and to trust

Him and to, to endure in prayer. And, and when something like that comes, that's why, why

James says count it all joy when trials come your way. Because not because the trial is fun, but because of what

God is trying to do in your heart and, and to grow you through that, that time in your life.

So, you know, when, when a difficult time comes our way, of course, it's easy to say right now, you know, when nothing is going on, but when a difficult time comes our way, we've got to remember, hey, this is an opportunity.

This is an opportunity for me to grow closer to the Lord, to trust Him more, to depend on Him more, to see how it's going to work.

I mean, when we depend on God in prayer and we, we come to Him and say, look, you know,

I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you. I don't have any resources to help me in this situation.

I need you to carry me through it. He does that because He's faithful and we need to trust

Him on that and, and, and be obedient and endure. That's what scripture tells us to do.

Not to just sit down and give up. Yeah, absolutely. Amen. Again, I wanted to just keep saying amen.

Preach it. No, we're, you know, we're Christian women. We don't preach. We don't preach. Maybe once in a while to each other, but that's not it.

Ignoring each other as, you know, as the day draws near. Exactly, exactly. And, you know, just to, just to put this out there, just to be clear,

I understand, and you understand that there are people who due to health reasons or whatever, maybe are not able to get to church week after week, especially, you know, with the winter, certain areas of the country.

And, and we understand that. And so we're not trying to make those individuals feel condemned for the fact that they can't attend church faithfully at certain points.

But, you know, I think in those situations really a lot of it comes down to where's your heart, you know, I mean, your heart wants to be with your church family and is your church family reaching out and still keeping you involved as they can.

And so. And I wrote, I actually wrote an article about that a while back to it. It didn't get a whole lot of attention, but I, I would really like for it to about people who are, are caring for loved ones with disabilities and who are ill and things like that.

That's where the church can reach out and be the church. I have a lady contact me that said, look,

I'd really like to go to church, but I am the full -time caregiver for my disabled son. And I don't,

I don't have, we can't afford to hire someone to come in for me to go to church. And I was like, what an opportunity for, for her church to go,

Hey, we'll set up a rotating schedule of people to come sit with your son. So you can go to church.

That's what being the church is. That's not, it's not just for us. It gives us an opportunity to serve other people.

And, and in this case, other people, another person who wants to come to church, you know, so just the local church is so, so important in our involvement and it is so, so important.

Oh, absolutely. And if you know, we will put a link to that article up actually with this podcast.

So ladies, you can go click that link and read that article because that sounds like a good one. I think I missed that one. So, but thank you.

I mean, that's, you know, that's exactly what we're saying is we are to be serving within the church.

We can't do that if we're sitting watching the live stream. And, and so that's another characteristic of a healthy church is having opportunities to serve.

You know? And so I think this is maybe where some of our discernment comes in. You know, when we're looking for a church, as we said, maybe just because the pastor went to a certain seminary, that doesn't always mean that that church is going to be sound.

I mean, there are some who have graduated from really good seminaries that we would not recommend at all.

Right. And ladies, you can send one of us an email if you want to know who that is.

So, but I think we know exactly who we're talking about. But you know, I mean,

I, I know of one particular church, not in the area where I currently live, but pastor very doctrinally sound sermons went to a great seminary, but the women's group is doing

Beth Moore Bible studies, you know, or was at one time. And so while we're serving within our church, we still, we still wear our discernment hat.

Right. And we still serve in that way even.

So, you know, just have you come across any sort of examples of that, of maybe where we have a doctrinally sound church, but we've got a little bit of a problem.

And what would your advice be in kind of dealing with situations like that?

Well, one of the things, yes, first of all, yes, I have been in churches like that and it's, you know, it's just showing that there's some work to be done there.

I mean, no church is perfect. Every church, even John MacArthur's church has problems. And everybody just stopped listening.

Church has some problems, some areas where they need to clean things up or repent or whatever.

Every church has some areas where there are problems.

And so I, I really believe that in a lot of cases when, when God has put a discerning woman into a church, like you're describing where the pastor is doctrinally sound and he's teaching the word from the pulpit, but the women's ministry is doing stuff by Beth Moore, Priscilla Shrier, you know, all these, all these other women that you and I know and the people who are listening to us probably know are not good for, they're not good

Bible teachers. Let's just put it that way. They have some problems, but it's really, if you're a discerning woman in that church, it's an opportunity for you to roll up your sleeves and get to work.

First of all, praying because that's God's church.

It's not my church. God loves it way more than I do. God cares about it way more than I do.

He loves the people who are involved way more than I do. And he's the only one with the power to fix the problem and he'll do it in his way and in his time.

And so the first thing we've got to do is to be in prayer and maybe God put you in that church to start praying for it.

And to, to be a godly example to the other women in that church. And so I, you know, a lot of times women will say, well, this church is good, but they're doing

Beth Moore Bible studies. I guess I should just leave. And I'm like, don't, you know, don't, don't jump the gun on that yet.

Let's see if maybe you can help bring about some change. First, start pray and ask

God to begin changing the hearts of the people that are at that church. The next thing is there are so many pastors who just are not aware of either what's going on in their women's ministries, or they're not aware that if big box, a

Christian retailer sells such and such of a book that it's not necessarily trustworthy.

They don't realize that if that they need to vet the, the things that come into their women's ministries, particularly

I, I see, you know, I see that as the way one of the main doors that false doctrine comes into the church through is through the women's ministry, because there are so many, the majority of the women's

Bible study authors out there teach false doctrine. That's, that's not me exaggerating. That's just a fact research for yourself and find out.

But anyway, a lot of pastors just, we've had this mentality for so long that if something presents itself as Christian, it's biblical

Christianity. And you, you just accept it on face value. And we're starting to introduce the idea through ministries like mine and yours, that you can't do that.

You've got to check out what's being taught and, and the behavior of the author.

You know, for example, if she's preaching to men and things like that. So a lot of pastors just are not aware of what's going on and that they need to check things out.

And that's another thing that you can do. If you're in a church like that is lovingly, kindly, patiently talk to your pastor and express concern and show him, the things that backed up by scripture, show him the things that this women's

Bible study author is teaching. And, and just make him aware because a lot of pastors,

I mean, I've heard such great stories from, from women who do this. They go to their pastor, humbly, kindly, and let him know that this is what's going on.

And their pastor turns around and says, we're not doing those anymore. We're not doing those Bible studies by Beth Moore or whatever anymore.

I didn't know. And now I'm going to start checking things out. So don't just turn tail and run at the first sign of problems.

Again, that's why you need to be involved in a local church so that you can help and you can serve and you can shine light into some of those dark nooks and crannies of your church and, and help be a helper.

That's what, you know, that's, that's what God said about Eve and the, you know, in the garden that she was created to be her husband's helper.

And there are so many ways that we can help that church as well. And so those are, those are some of the things that I recommend also that, you know, if you're in this church and people start inviting you to these

Bible studies, you can pray about it and, and either say, I'm sorry,

I can't be involved in that. And here's why, and explain it to the person who's, who's inviting you. Or there may be certain situations in which it's appropriate for you to go to the

Bible study and, and kindly and patiently and humbly point out the errors as they're being taught.

It's not always the best thing to do, but there could be situations where that's appropriate. So those are some of the things, again, that you need to be involved in a local church to be able to do to help other people.

Yeah. And that's one way then that we can serve. I mean, of course we all hope that that's not a way you have to serve in your church because we all want to have that perfect church, but yeah, absolutely.

No, I think that's wise, wise words. So thank you for that. But what if, so, you know, so we're, we're talking about serving in different ways that women can serve.

We're looking for a local church and we've got, you know, the preaching's okay.

There's nothing heretical coming from the pulpit, but what if there aren't opportunities to serve?

What do we do with a church like that? Not like we're not that we're trying to sit here and condemn different churches, but again, it's, it's something that I've experienced in my past.

It's something that I know others have experienced where you're, you're there, you're in a church you want to serve because, you know, let's face it.

That's how God has designed us. He calls us into his body and, you know, read first Corinthians 12.

We are all members of the body and we're all different. We all have different gifts and the body can't function if we're all the same member.

If we're all a hand, the body's not going to work. We all need to be different. We all have, have different ways that we can serve one another and serve

Christ that way. So what would be some of your thoughts on how to handle not being able to serve?

I know when I experienced that, it's like a spiritual, it's like a starvation. You kind of start to feel like you're spiritually dying and you don't know why.

And it's because you're not able to do what you are called by God to do. And that is serving, you know, in whatever capacity that might look like.

Right. Actually, I might not be the best person to answer this question because I have never encountered a church that said, we don't have any place for you to serve.

It's more like somebody, please come serve. It's such a good problem to have. Yeah. I mean, for example, my church right now, we need more people to work in the nursery.

That's why I signed up to work in the nursery. It's not, you know, my, I, I feel like I'm gifted in, in other areas maybe, but I can go in and hold babies because there's a need there.

And that's another thing about serving in your church. You may not always get to serve in your favorite way, but there, there are needs there and you sacrifice your, your idea of, well,

I would prefer to serve in such and such a way to do something to help out where you're needed, you know, but I, I, I would think that if you go into a church and there's no opportunity for you to serve, or people are saying you cannot serve or something like that, that you need to, again,

I wouldn't jump ship immediately. I would start praying about that. I know I'm harping on prayer a lot, but it's so important.

We forget that so many times to pray for that church, to pray for God, to give you opportunities to serve to, to continue asking, you know, is, is there a need for this?

Could I do that? I see a here, an area where I could help. Would it be okay for me to do such and such?

And if you really have put forth the effort and you've put forth the prayer and people are still telling you there's no place for you to serve, that's not a healthy church.

And it may be time to start considering another church.

But again, I would, I would invest the prayer and invest the time and the effort to try to make an impact on that church, because that's a church that has, has a problem.

You know, that's just as equally valid a problem as a church that uses Beth more Bible studies.

And so that could be a way that you could have an impact on that church is that you've come in wanting to serve and looking for opportunities to serve and.

You know, maybe you can help in that area, but yeah, if it's, if it just looks like you're never going to be able to serve, you need to find a place where you can serve.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, I love, I love your emphasis on prayer there and on identifying the need, you know, there's, there's a balance there.

We need to be willing to serve. Like you said, maybe where it's not our favorite place to serve, but there's a need there.

And that's part of service, you know, helping our brothers and sisters and then praying that the

Lord would open up opportunities where you are maybe more specially gifted, whatever that might be, whether it's, you know, helping with the audio or, you know, teaching women's

Bible studies or something, you know, whatever it is across that spectrum, cooking, taking meals to those, you know, who are sick and, you know, you wouldn't necessarily want me to do that.

I can bring you cookies, but you don't want a meal for me. So cookies, dessert will be great, but I can't promise anything about the main entree.

you know, but, you know, that, that prayer is so key and I appreciate you harping, as you say on prayer, because that is, you hear it, you read it, that so many people don't go to prayer first, but at the same time, we're reticent to change it, whether that's conscious or unconscious, probably unconscious, but, you know, that again, the

Lord will be faithful to answer those prayers of his faithful saints that they desire to serve and, and, you know, help them in identifying a need and finding a way to serve, serve him by serving the body.

Right. And, you know, I think one of the reasons, I mean, not to veer off the church and into prayer, because we're on a particular topic, but I think one of the reasons, and I know that I, again,

I'm preaching to myself here. One of the reasons that we don't put the emphasis on prayer that we should and prioritize prayer that we, like we should is that deep down, we just really don't believe that God responds to prayer.

We really don't believe that he's going to change things or that he's capable of changing things.

And woe unto me for thinking that for sure. Yeah. No, absolutely.

We're so, we're so quick to forget the ways that he's answered prayer in the past, whether he answered the way we thought he should or not.

It's just, you know, well, I guess we're just still growing, huh? I guess we're just forever being sanctified and growing.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand the theology that says that you can become perfected this side of heaven.

I just look at my own life and go, well, then I'm going to live forever. So, cause it's a slow process.

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like that anyway, but Oh goodness. Well, I feel like we could keep talking because I feel like now

I have, you know, 14 other topics that we could just do a whole separate shows on. So I'll probably just have to have you back.

So, so we'll have to do that. Maybe we'll have to talk about prayer a little bit.

That's, you know, just to be completely transparent, that's an area where I struggle with as well. You know?

And so, and I think a lot of us do men and women. But, you know, we're talking to the ladies here and it's easy to get busy.

It's, it's easy to just get caught up with so many other things. And that's, that's key. And that's key even to our conversation here today about the church.

And, you know, but I think as we wrap up here, we would encourage ladies, you ladies to, to find a place to serve, find a local body.

Yes. You know, we know that the church is not a building. We are the church, but we are not the church alone. We need to be in a body and serving one another.

And, you know, just Michelle, thank you for your, for your wisdom and your, your insight today into this topic.

Well, thank you. I mean, and any wisdom that I have, you know what, where I learned it, I probably learned it in church through God's words.

I don't feel particularly wise, but I've, I've been fortunate to have some great pastors and teachers who have instructed me in God's word.

And that's just another importance of being in the local church. It's been such a joy to be with you today and to talk with you and yeah, let's do this again sometime.

It was fun. Oh yeah. It was a blast. So we will definitely do this again. Michelle, thank you so much.

I'm going to speak for everybody listening and say that they just really appreciate, we appreciate your time and, and all of the work that you do.

Your ministry to ladies is so important. So thank you so much for that. Well, thank you. It is my pleasure to serve body of Christ in this way.

Well, thank you. We'll have you back again soon. All right. Okay, ladies. Well, that was my conversation with Michelle Leslie.

And as you can see, we had a blast, like I said, and I think we will have to do that again sometime, but right now we are way over time.

So just a reminder, ladies, you can find Equipping Eve on Facebook or Twitter. So that's at Equipping Eve.

You type Equipping Eve into Facebook, you'll find me there, equippingeve .com. You can find the podcast there, blog posts, some other resources are available to you there.

Bible studies and links to other doctrinally sound trusted churches and ministries.

So please avail yourself of that resource and send me a note. There's a contact page there. Send me a note.

If you have any ideas for anything else you'd like to see on the website or here on the show. So thanks so much for tuning in today, ladies.

And until next time, get in your Bibles and get on your knees and get equipped. Thanks for listening.

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