Honor the Son W/Nathan Anderson

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02:41

In Matthew 16 Jesus chastised the Pharisees who could interpret the appearance of the sky but failed to interpret the signs of the time in which they lived.

02:52

Who are the Pharisees of our day? This strong hold of sort of whiteness and white identity and pristineness is really part of what keeps us from making progress.

03:07

We need to do better. The church rich in theological scholarship has lingered in academic sanctuaries and ivory towers failing to translate its lofty doctrines into a tangible and practical cultural apologetic.

03:24

At the Worldview Youth Academy we bridge this critical gap. Here theological depth is not an end in itself but a means to engage with contemporary cultural issues for the glory of God and the expansion of his kingdom.

03:41

Our mission is to cultivate thinkers who can articulate and apply Christian truths within contemporary societal challenges.

03:50

So embrace this call to worship God with all your heart, all your soul and with all your mind.

03:56

We will do better as this next generation tears down the idols of our modern culture and works to build a brighter future toward Christendom 2 .0.

04:23

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat, I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

04:35

Delusional, yeah. Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

04:42

You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

04:55

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

05:07

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

05:13

Right. Don't go into the world and make homies. Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

05:20

That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

05:45

Kiss the son, lest he be angry and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.

05:53

Blessed are all who take refuge in him. That is Psalm 212, one of my favorite verses.

06:00

And you know the the Ben Merkle version translation? Yes. You've told me before.

06:08

Kiss the son lest you get smoked. Yeah. I like that one better. But nonetheless, it's a great verse and it's perfect for today's show.

06:17

Very perfect. Which we'll get into here. What's up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

06:23

Luke the Bear here hosting again. Pastor Jeff is currently at the hospital with one of his twins so he can be praying for them.

06:30

I know they'd appreciate it. And I've got the little Zeezers on my left here. Yeah that's me.

06:36

Good to be here. Director of Communications for End Abortion Now. What's going on with EAN right now that we need to let the people know about?

06:45

So we are, of course, I mean always working to impact the church on a national scale and of course impact our culture and legislative offices with the truth on life and biblical justice, of course, we're working towards with the gospel here.

07:08

But right now the fight is local. Arizona. Arizona fighting against the wicked and their efforts to harm the lives of babies in the womb all the way up to the moment of birth.

07:22

So there's a lot going on on that front. Yeah. Currently.

07:28

We be telling them legislators to kiss the sun. Kiss the sun. Yeah. This is the preeminent example of that an application of that text.

07:36

Right. Well we'll get into this quickly here. We got special guests with us. But first I want to mention one of our sponsors

07:45

Ion Layer. We both got today. Yep. Got it right here. I see they went back to the regular overlay patch because those ones with the doubles were kind of a pain in the rear end.

07:59

Yeah. Well I'm sure they're always getting better at their craft. But we love Ion Layer.

08:04

They've been great partners with us for the sake of the gospel and we're grateful for their product, their

08:11

NAD patches. And I know we talk about them a lot but you can go to ionlayer .com and put an apology in the coupon code to get a sweet discount on their product.

08:21

So I'll talk about the other sponsors later. Right now I'm excited to bring in our special guest all the way from Chile.

08:31

What is it? Pichilemu? Did I say it right? Pichilemu. Chilemu. Chile. Luke has one language that he's proficient at.

08:42

He's practicing. Nathan what's up man? How you doing? Doing good

08:48

Luke. Thanks for having me. Yeah I'm excited. We've been planning this for a while actually. Yeah if you don't know

08:54

Nathan Anderson get to know him through his creative works, documentaries, films that he's producing.

09:00

Great stuff. Yeah so why do we have you on today Nathan? You just did something.

09:08

Yeah I just finished a film, a documentary called Honor the Sun and released that a few weeks ago now

09:17

I think. And yeah it's available on numerous platforms to watch.

09:24

On my YouTube channel, also on the Wrath and Grace app, the Relearn app.

09:32

And the Boniface media app as well. So yeah a few different places people can check it out.

09:40

Sweet. Well we'll get into that more. This is actually your third documentary correct? Yes. So this is my second full -length documentary.

09:50

I also did a docu -series called Teach All Nations. That was my second project.

09:56

But yeah this is my third project. What has the response been to your works here?

10:03

It's been good. It's been good. I mean to be honest it's been a long process.

10:10

At least a year and a half you know since I started filming and and working on this.

10:16

So I'm excited just to finally get that out there. Have something finished and out there for the world to see.

10:22

So so yeah I've been really blessed and really excited by the response.

10:29

And also there's a lot of people that haven't seen my other projects and so you know either they saw this one first and then saw the other ones or vice versa basically.

10:38

So then a lot of that as well. Yeah I'm getting a distinctive theme also from the titles of these that you might have a certain outlook on the future of the gospel and its triumph in history and the nation's being taught and brought to their

10:56

King and all of the good stuff that we've talked about here for a little while. So it sounds like that perspective is shared.

11:03

Yeah yeah yeah not not very subtle not not very nuanced in that for sure.

11:10

Yeah definitely the the theme that kind of ties all these together is a post -millennial outlook.

11:18

Especially the first film on earth as it is in heaven. It really digs into the issue of post -millennial eschatology.

11:27

And what I've tried to do with these other projects is kind of build on that foundation. Not so much go back and try to present and redefend and and kind of post -millennialism.

11:39

But show the outworkings of that long that just that longer view of history that longer kind of long -term view of faithfulness over time and how that might look like from a

11:54

Christian worldview perspective. So yeah just tell us why what your thought process was in doing them in the order you have.

12:05

You said you were kind of trying to lay out the thought there so so bring us into that. Yeah good good question.

12:12

So well the first film it was pretty straightforward. Even when I started the project my original goal was

12:20

I live here in Chile South America most people speak Spanish and there wasn't a lot of Spanish resources out on post -millennialism.

12:28

And so I wanted to make up my first documentary just a Spanish documentary about post millennialism.

12:36

Just to have that as a resource for people here. And through a long series of events the whole

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Spanish part didn't work out and I ended up doing it in English ultimately.

12:49

Okay. I got the the chance to interview Pastor Doug Wilson and a few other you know

12:55

Ken Gentry and Steve Gregg a number of other folks. And you know it just ended up making more sense to release it in English.

13:04

But that was my original thought process. And you know by God's grace that film you know it reached a lot of people.

13:13

At least a lot more people than I expected to reach with it. And and so after that you know after having on earth as it is in heaven out there you know teach all nations.

13:24

My idea was kind of just to yet further develop kind of a biblical worldview and what the outworkings of that would look like in the area in you know different areas of life.

13:39

In the area of economics, in the family, in the church, and and even in politics.

13:46

But I there is an episode the last one is kind of on the issue of politics. But obviously there's a lot more that could be said there.

13:54

And so really in some ways my third film Honor the Sun is kind of a continuation of that fifth and final episode of Teach All Nations.

14:04

And kind of digging into that whole issue of the intersection of faith and politics in a longer documentary form.

14:13

Gotcha. Gotcha. Well yeah it was it was excellent. I really enjoyed it. And I got

14:19

I think you were part of it. That was it was fun. We got to hang out at ReformCon a little bit and he interviewed me.

14:24

So thank you. That was that was cool to be a part of that. And I think I was the ugly sandwich in between two excellent slices of bread.

14:31

I think Toby and Andrew Sandlin maybe. So did you just give yourself a nickname there? Ugly sandwich. You better be careful.

14:37

That might stick with you. Ugly sandwich. I could call it worse. Oh man.

14:45

No it's good stuff. Yeah good stuff. I love all three. And like you said the third one, the most recent one,

14:50

I watched not too long ago. And you can tell as you say the progression. Like you are applying now the biblical perspective of the future but showing its application in the present.

15:03

And in particular for the realm of civil government and Protestant political theory and how

15:09

Christians are to think through these types of issues. Applying our worldview specifically to areas that Christians haven't been in recent history.

15:18

Right? Like it wasn't always this way. It wasn't just, you know, in recent history that we started to, you know, do these things.

15:27

Our forebearers, you know, thought deeply about these things and how to apply the biblical worldview to every area of life.

15:34

But it seems like you're not just, you know, as a filmmaker, you're telling stories.

15:40

You know, you're telling a story in a specific way though in seeking to recover what we would be convicted to believe are these biblical truths.

15:51

And these biblical truths have led to gospel freedom, gospel blessing for the world, the prosperity of entire nations and people groups that have internalized the

16:03

Christian teachings. As a storyteller, what is your aim? What are you trying to get across in talking about, you know, this biblical perspective of the future?

16:14

Post -millennialism, its various applications. What are you aiming at and what are you hoping that people will see through the stories that you're telling?

16:22

Yeah, so my aim in all of this is to start a conversation about a lot of these different topics.

16:31

I obviously, and this is something that's been a criticism from some people in terms of some of my films.

16:37

Like, well, he didn't talk about this, this, and that, and he didn't bring this issue in. But the idea with a documentary like that, it's not a work of systematic theology where we're just gonna cover every issue related to these topics.

16:53

But it hopefully is enough to spark a conversation or to at least present some of these different pastors and theologians and someone goes, oh, well, you know, maybe who's that guy?

17:05

You know, maybe he's written a book on this subject and allow people to dig in a little deeper.

17:11

And so that's really the hope I have with these films, you know, just to be a conversation starter.

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And also with the fact that today all of them are available for free, you know, it's as easy as you could just send a link, you know, to your friend and say, hey, watch this, or what do you think about this section over here?

17:30

And so it's a great resource right now for people to share and to just, you know, or watch in their church, small group or, you know, a lot of different venues in that sense.

17:45

Well, at that point, man, I appreciate, I appreciate brother you having this up for free.

17:51

I mean, we'll get into Chile later and like where you live and stuff. We were just talking before we started.

17:56

It takes like 15 days to get where Nathan lives from anywhere. And I know from watching his films, you were all over the

18:04

US interviewing people. It's not like you like flew people down to your hometown to get interviewed.

18:10

You were all over the place. And I can't imagine the amount of time and money it took you just to travel around.

18:17

And so the fact that you've been able to put this up for free for everyone is is amazing. So thank you for that.

18:24

Yeah, no, it's definitely it's been some some great experiences, obviously, you know, trying to tie different trips together and doing that kind of thing.

18:33

But yeah, we especially for you know, especially for teach all nations and and for honor the sun, we did some long, you know, some long trips, you know, 11 interviews, 17 interviews or, you know, things like that in the space of like 10 days.

18:51

So so yeah, well, definitely, definitely has been a very fun experience, though, with traveling with a friend who's helping with the camera, some of the camera stuff, and doing that.

19:04

Yeah, it's definitely a lot of work. But obviously, most of the work and you guys know, this is sitting in the office trying to put all this stuff together trying to figure, you know, after the fact, in a lot of times how this all fits together, whether it fits together, you know, all those kinds of fun questions.

19:23

Yeah, I mean, I imagine the hardest part was figuring out what to take out because I imagine you got some just I bet

19:30

I bet you're like, the stuff you didn't include is also incredible. And you probably have enough content to do a lot of other stuff with that.

19:38

And I know like we've always we learn, learn this when Marcus was here, we learn it from Darren Doan, you just let the story tell itself.

19:46

And yeah, I'm just trying to put the pieces together. So. So yeah, I mean, I'd love to see some of that b roll extra footage you got going on.

19:53

Well, I let on that note to, you know, you're telling a coherent narrative and making these puzzle pieces fit together with that, which obviously takes skill.

20:02

But one thing I really enjoy about what you've created so far, is within these projects, you're also addressing the common objections, if you will, to the postmillennial position, and even to just a simple position that doesn't relegate the scriptures to a church setting, or, you know, certain spheres of government, you're attempting to show how, you know, these objections such as, you know, applying the faith here is a violation of church and state, and how

20:34

Christians should think through these things. And so one thing I enjoy is that you're actually responding to these common objections that we hear in the public square, anytime a

20:44

Christian attempts to walk out their door, and start thinking Christianly. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's and it's hard, because obviously, there's a lot of different directions, you know, a lot of different interests, you can take in a subject like this, and it's hard to find and decide what's, you know, what to keep, and what's the most important aspects.

21:05

And so I, you know, I think, you know, you know, with the latest project with Honor of the Sun, I really attempted to, yes, you know, try to stay focused on some of these central issues in terms of like, do rulers have, you know, an obligation to Christ, as Christ is

21:25

King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and just focus on those basic issues, and just maybe pound those issues into the ground in some way, so that people can deal with that, wrestle with that, and then all the other conversations we might have, would then flow out of that basic understanding of Christ's Lordship, over all areas of life, in that sense.

21:50

Just curious, are you planning on doing another one after this? Or you got something? Yes. Yeah. Good.

21:56

I am glad to hear that. Yeah, I'm actually, well, I guess if you guys want an exclusive scoop on that,

22:03

I'm why not? I mean, yeah, let's hear it. I am working right now, on the very, very initial stages of, you know, of a theme that's kind of been through all of these films, but I want to do something a bit more explicit in that regard, is

22:23

I want to do a documentary on the whole issue of theonomy and Christian Reconstruction, talk a little bit about, you know, guys like R .J.

22:33

Rushuni, Gary North, Greg Bonson, and so yeah, that's what I'm...

22:39

That's sweet. The next project I have in the works right now, and yeah, that's what

22:45

I'm doing. That's exciting. In the initial stages of kind of figuring that out. Excellent. I, for the record, between Nathan and Andrew Sandlin, you guys are like two of my favorite

22:58

Facebook posters. Every time I see your guys' posts, I'm always like, it gets me fired up, so I'm grateful for what you usually post on Facebook.

23:09

Now, that'll be good. I'm looking forward to that project, because, I mean, that will put you in the popular camp, talking about theonomy and raising those names, but I think it's important, because this is the discussion the

23:22

Church is having right now. It is. And we're talking about, you know, gospel culture, and addressing the topic of Christian nationalism, and how, you know, what are the the differences with what we're saying versus what someone else would be saying, so I think it's needed.

23:38

I think clarity is important at this moment for what we mean, and the vision that we're aiming at as Christians.

23:46

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're definitely in an interesting place in that regard, because a lot of people are talking about Christian nation and throwing ideas out there, but yeah, the vision that, you know, guys like Rush V and Gary North and, you know, and Bonson had was pretty specific in what they were saying, and what they weren't saying, you know, and so I think it's helpful to lay some of that stuff out there, and, you know, and there's so many resources, you know, you guys know this, there's so many, you know,

24:21

Gary North was very generous with all the books he published. I mean, he left them out, all out there for free on his website, on PDFs, and so people who really want to look into those things, those resources are available, you know.

24:37

Yeah. Even the guys at Chalcedon, they have a bunch of their resources to read online and stuff like that, and so my goal, you know, with this next project is that, yeah, that people would take an interest in looking into some of those guys and what the work they've done.

24:53

I think that'll help, because honestly these guys, brilliant minds, prolific writers, lecturers, and so on, and someone might be intimidated just to pick up one of their works and start diving in.

25:08

You know, when you read Rush Dooney, you're reading dense, dense theology and information, but, you know, seeing his beliefs presented in a visual form, too, like you say,

25:18

I think will give people an inroad in thinking, well, okay, there's more to what's being said here, and I need to investigate it, because it's gonna give some direction on what we're dealing with today.

25:29

Yeah, sorry, I just had a thought pop up. We were talking, I wasn't planning on having this little mini discussion here, and I also meant to play the trailer at the beginning.

25:39

Forgive me, I will play the trailer for the film, but I don't know, did you guys happen to see, I saw this clip a couple days ago,

25:48

I'm not entirely sure when it was from, but it was Sam Waldron and Joel Beakey. Yes, mm -hmm, yeah.

25:55

So, I just pulled. They were discouraging the theonomy. Yeah, I'm just gonna, since we're talking about this,

26:01

I'm gonna pull this up real quick, and I was, I was very disappointed, especially

26:08

Beakey, who's like the guy on the Puritans, and then, to see this clip, and anyways, let me, let me,

26:17

I'm gonna go ahead and play this gig, I pulled it up, if you can pull it up, and then we'll just discuss this real quick.

26:25

I don't have any audio, though. Oh, my fault. Clip, sorry. Anyways, let me, let me, hold on,

26:31

I'm gonna go ahead and play this gig, I pulled it up, if you can pull it up, and then we'll just, sorry, that's my fault.

26:37

Try this again. I had the show playing in the background, but I forgot I had it muted. All right, try this again.

26:45

You can't simply ignore the history of terminology. Gary North, Russus Rastuni, and Greg Bonson, they are, they are the origin of this.

26:55

They're the fountain of theonomy. They identified themselves as theonomic. Now, if you're gonna say you're theonomic, you either believe what they believe, and, and, and, and, and pay attention to history, or you tell us plainly where you disagree with them.

27:10

Theonomy does not merely mean that you believe in God's law. I know that's the etymology, but that's not what it means.

27:16

It's not what Rastuni, it's not what North, and it's not what Bonson meant. You know, the

27:21

Reformers and Puritans were so clear on the biblical teaching of the law, and the categories are so just, just crystal clear in the role of the moral law, the civil law, the ceremonial law.

27:32

They got it right, and there's no need to reinvent the wheel. Theonomy is not the road to go for you or for your church.

27:39

We can't simply ignore the history. So I, Nathan, I love to hear your take on that, especially you're in that mode right now, right?

27:48

You mentioned those guys they just mentioned, and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean,

27:55

I think I don't have such a huge issue with, with what Sam Waldron said right there, because I, I mean,

28:03

I think he's right. I know it's important how we define terms. Even Greg Bonson talked about this in the introduction to his, you know, his book on theonomy and Christian ethics, where, you know, he recognized that the term theonomy has been used by, you know, a lot of different thinkers to refer to a lot of different things, you know,

28:27

Paul Tillich and other guys, and that he was using it in a specific way, and so I, you know,

28:34

I don't have a huge problem with that, and frankly, it's because I don't have a problem with Greg Bonson and Gary Dorth and these guys.

28:42

It is true, and, you know, if you go to the larger clip, they start going into, well, these guys disagreed with each other on different things and all that, and so, and they use that kind of an excuse, like, oh, well, you know, they disagreed, so, you know, that means, you know, they can't, we can't have them all together.

29:00

I'm like, wait a second, so you got a Dutch Reformed guy on the stage there with a

29:05

Reformed Baptist guy, you know, saying that, you know, well, these guys disagreed. Well, you guys disagree, you know, and even, and I find it really ironic that they would clip those two guys together because, you know,

29:19

Sam Waldron being a Baptist and, you know, what's his name, Joel Beek, he's like, starts talking about the, you know, well, we don't need theonomy because we have the

29:29

Puritans and we, you know, have the Reformers and it's like, hmm, I don't know how, you know, good it would be to be a

29:38

Baptist in Calvin's Geneva, you know, I mean, if you guys want to be really specific,

29:44

I think Gary North would probably have a better scenario for, you know, for religious liberty than that particular situation.

29:56

So, you know, I mean, what's interesting about the whole conversation there is they seem to be very concerned about post -millennialism and theonomy.

30:08

I mean, the guys at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary, they keep publishing podcasts and articles and, you know, and in some ways

30:16

I feel like even some of the themes of that conference they had, it was like, you know, optimistic amillennialism kind of a thing.

30:23

It was kind of, you know, also a nudge towards the whole post -millennial conversation that we've been having for a long time.

30:31

And so they seem to be very concerned about what's going on in terms of theonomy and post -millennialism.

30:39

And on the other hand, I think a lot of people on our sides are very appreciative of what those guys are doing and, you know,

30:45

I feel like the pushbacks coming a lot from one direction and the guys on our side are responding, you know, obviously when someone makes those kind of statements you want to respond.

30:56

Yeah. But it's kind of an, yeah, it's kind of an odd situation. Yeah, no, I appreciate that a lot and we've talked about this, especially with the whole

31:04

Christian nationalism conversation. I think the reason that these topics, these conversations are so prevalent right now within the church is because we all agree that our position has the answer for the questions, the answers to the questions.

31:25

And the church has not had those answers. And so it's, I think that's why we're seeing it kind of a resurgence because we're like, yeah, we can answer that.

31:32

We've been saying this for a long time but we'll continue to say it. And, you know, even there's been a lot of chatter, guys saying, well, you know, saying that theonomy and post -millennialism they thought was dead and we're like zombies coming out of the grave sort of thing, which is just hilarious to me.

31:48

But yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, just that we have the answers that the cultures, or the,

31:56

I shouldn't say the culture, that the church is looking for to respond to the culture. Yeah, I think that, you know, especially since COVID and since all the insanity broke loose,

32:07

I think there's been some important dividing lines that have formed within evangelicalism and, you know, people, a lot of things have come to light and kind of been exposed in terms of how a lot of evangelicalism had gotten used to responding to the culture, responding to the government, and, you know, and I think that the faithfulness of, you know, churches like you guys, you know, and others that were able to respond in a different manner, was really rooted in those theological convictions you guys and we had before 2020 came around.

32:53

And so a lot of people were in 2020 looking around trying to, well, what do we do now?

32:58

How do we respond? But as you were saying, we got to that stage having,

33:04

I think, a lot of the tools and having the response, you know, that was, you know, written, you know, a long time ago as to what the role of the church is, what the role of the state is, and more than all of that, a optimistic view of the future that understands that, you know, these seasons will pass, you know, and it is important to be faithful in the midst of them, knowing that, you know, that Christ's kingdom will continue to advance, and knowing that Christ's enemies will be put to shame ultimately, you know, and so I think that's really important as we, you know, coming out of this whole situation and, you know, considering whatever else may lie ahead for us, you know, in this time period that we're living through,

33:55

I think that that whole event just kind of shook people, kind of, you know, put a lot of these ideas out there, though not so much at the level of the seminary, you know.

34:08

I think it's more the people in the pews, listening to podcasts, reading books, or watching movies that have...

34:16

and so I think a lot of folks in the seminaries feel pretty threatened because it's like, well, these guys are talking about all these things that we didn't learn in seminary, and that weren't, you know, that actually kind of contradict, you know, some of the ways we were taught to operate and to act, and so I think there's definitely a conflict there, and I don't know, hopefully some of these conversations will trickle up into the seminaries, or I don't know, but so I think there's definitely a divide there, though, for sure.

34:52

And I suspect part of that is why we have, you know, guys like the guys that come to Baptist Theological Seminary so concerned about putting out all this material against theonomy and against post -millennialism.

35:09

Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head with, you know, the events over the last four years really were an unveiling, and it showed us how woefully inadequate and ill -equipped we were, the

35:21

Church, I should say, for the most part, to deal with things like civil tyranny and the encroachment upon the

35:29

Church's mission and the effects of the culture and all those things. So I think you hit the nail on the head there.

35:35

I think people are hungry for those answers, which we are of the perspective that, you know, we would say that our position has those things.

35:43

What I find interesting about that clip is they speak very highly of the Puritans.

35:48

You know, the Puritans have that, and, you know, you mentioned Bonson's work, Theonomy and Christian Ethics.

35:54

What I love about that book is at the end he includes the early legal codes for the colonies, and how every law, next to it there's an

36:03

Old Testament citation for the basis of it from the Pentateuch. And so that fires me up, because when you see that, you see what our nation's earliest legal codes were based on.

36:14

Like, where were they looking as the source of authority? They were looking to God's Word to tell them what laws to write, and how to write them, how to apply them in society.

36:22

So if someone is telling me, hey, listen, the Puritans got it right, stay with them. And I say, great,

36:27

I'm gonna go read the Puritans. And then I see things like that, and I think, well, are they theonomy -ing?

36:34

Like, is that what they were doing? Because this looks a lot like the application of God's law, and in particular, God's judicial standards to the realm of civil government.

36:44

Is that what I should be listening to, then? I think that's the problem that a lot of, you know, like you said,

36:50

Christians that are just listening to materials and podcasts, not existing in the seminary realm so much, are thinking, like, okay, you told us to go read these guys, and listen to these guys.

37:01

Well, guess what? We went and read those guys, and listened to those guys, and they disagree with you.

37:07

So there's a little bit of an internal conflict going on here. Yeah, absolutely, and I appreciate that.

37:14

You want to add anything to that, Nathan? Yeah, I mean,

37:20

I think these conversations, I mean, when we go back into history,

37:26

I think a lot of these guys have a very specifically curated, you know, understanding of some of the

37:33

Puritans and others, you know. Because, you know, but as you say, when they discover, you know, other aspects of what they thought, you know, it's a little shocking, because it obviously doesn't line up with what is being taught, and what is being set forward.

37:50

And either way, I mean, because obviously sometimes, you know, these discussions about historical theology can get, you know, extended, and someone's like, well,

37:58

I, you know, I studied John Owen, and I, you know, I got this out of it, but actually, I think John Owen thought, you know, differently, and, you know, we could get into long discussions about those kinds of things.

38:08

But ultimately, we go back to just basically, well, what does the Bible teach, you know?

38:13

And what does the Scripture teach about these things? And when we are faced with these kinds of conflicts and strife, and where we actually have to go, well, no, the government's wrong about this, and, you know, that's when

38:33

I think the rubber meets the road with a lot of these things. And that's been really interesting for me, and even in my, you know, the story of my film, because I released my first film on February 15th, 2020.

38:48

And at least here in Chile, everything kind of went nuts. I think it was around March 11th or 12th.

38:54

That was before shutdown. Yeah, how providential. Yeah. I know, and so I always, you know, in God's providence,

39:01

I made a film about optimistic eschatology right before this, you know, world changing event, basically.

39:10

And so it's almost, you know, on paper, it's like, that's a weird time to release a film about post -millennialism.

39:16

But, you know, God in his providence, you know, used it specifically for that time period.

39:23

So yeah, it's been very interesting. Man, that's incredible. Well, I'm going to play the trailer here.

39:29

We're about at the halfway point. I'm going to play the trailer real quick, it's just a minute long. And then I want to dig into the film a little bit more.

39:35

And then I want to hear about Chile and just, I have a lot of questions.

39:41

So we'll just play the trailer real quick here. Go ahead and pull it up, Gabe. Jesus is king of kings and Lord of lords.

39:49

A king is a political power. A lord is a political power. Christ was crucified in public. Everything about Christianity is public.

39:57

It's meant to be out there in the world influencing things. Jesus is Lord. He's Lord of all of life.

40:05

America has a Lord. Jesus is his name. And he was born 2000 years ago.

40:10

If you're not post -mill, if you're not optimistic about the future, and you look at the church disintegrating into faithlessness, you think, well, we're right on schedule.

40:19

Hold on, pray up, we're gaining ground. Glory, hallelujah, lost and found.

40:39

Whoops, I accidentally played it again. Okay. So why the name

40:44

Honor of the Sun? So yeah, Honor of the Sun comes from Psalm 2, where, you know, basically it is a threat against the kings of the earth, you know, and calling them to obey the sun, to kiss the sun, if we're going to be a little more literal, right, to submit to him lest they be destroyed.

41:13

And so, you know, the whole aspect of Psalm 2, you know, it portrays, you know, the rulers of the earth, right, standing against the

41:26

Lord and against his Messiah, and ultimately being defeated in their attempt to stand against Christ.

41:38

And as a result of that, right, in that Psalm, we see that the nations are given to Christ as his heritage, and the ends of the earth as his possession.

41:51

But that process goes out on throughout history of God's people going into the world and taking possession of the land in that sense.

42:04

And the rulers of the world are warned to not get in the way, basically, you know.

42:11

This train is moving forward, and, you know, don't get in the way or you're going to be crushed, ultimately.

42:19

And so, yeah, that's kind of the idea in terms of Psalm 2, and in terms of the place of Christ as king of kings.

42:30

That's what I wanted to mainly portray. So is what you're saying, then, that the rulers of the earth, when they are called to kiss the sun, that doesn't just mean that they need to get their individual soul safe for heaven one day?

42:50

That there's actually more to their duty? Yeah, I mean, their duty as rulers is to, you know, honor

42:56

Christ, and, you know, in one sense, the duty of all of us is to honor

43:02

Christ wherever we have been placed in terms of our vocations, in terms of our callings, and, you know, if we happen to be political leaders or we're called to that, then we have to honor

43:15

Christ in that sphere as well, ultimately. And understanding, as well, that the whole authority that rulers have, it comes from God, directly, you know, and so they must submit to Christ because Christ is the source of their authority, as well.

43:40

And so if they don't submit to Christ, they're in rebellion, you know, against their king, right?

43:47

Whether they want to recognize him as that or not, he is the king of kings and the

43:53

Lord of lords. And so I think that is an important foundation for any conversation about political theology, ultimately.

44:02

Yeah, and I appreciate something you just said, that, you know, we are to honor the Son in every sphere,

44:09

God -ordained sphere of government. Every jurisdiction should honor the Son, and whether it be individual, family, church, civil.

44:16

And I think part of the problem with the church right now, and we'll get into Chile, because I don't know,

44:25

I have no idea what it's like in the culture down there, but in the U .S., I mean, the church, you know, we were battling out this kind of two -kingdom theology where, you know, we're like, yes, you honor the

44:35

Son in your own private governmental jurisdiction, but when it comes to the civil realm, that's a different jurisdiction.

44:46

They shouldn't have to honor the Son, or we shouldn't, as Christians, tell them that they are to honor the

44:52

Son. And I think we are where we are at in our culture because of, we mentioned it last week, but that prophetic vision, there's been no prophetic vision from the church saying, kiss the

45:04

Son lest you get smoked, right? And so, yeah, I appreciate what you just said, and I don't know.

45:11

Well, that's the practical effect of what you're saying, is that the civil sphere is just kind of left to go its own way, and it's left to operate under an autonomous authority, which will end up being itself, and when its authority ends up being itself, it becomes its own god, right?

45:29

The source of its own law, essentially. So to not tell the civil sphere to kiss the

45:35

Son is to allow the civil sphere, which is where the laws come from that affect our lives, to go the way of tyranny.

45:44

Because there's no ultimate authority over the state saying, you must obey the Son, you must rule in the fear of the

45:51

Lord. Like, they need to hear Psalm 2, which, I mean, the Apostles also quote this in the

45:57

New Testament, copiously, right, about the resurrection of Christ. You are my Son, today

46:02

I have begotten you. Jesus is the first begotten from the dead. So he was raised, right, he was resurrected from the dead in order to reign, in order to fulfill a particular purpose.

46:15

Of course, as our intercessor, as the one who secured our redemption eternally, but he didn't just rise, he ascended.

46:22

And then after he ascended, he sat down on his throne for the purpose of ruling.

46:28

And I love what you said, Nathan, you connected the purpose of Christians, not just in a spiritually redemptive sense, but in a creationally redemptive sense, right?

46:39

You connected that to our calling in Genesis, which is as image bearers of God, which Christ restores us to that office to take dominion, to extend the rule of the

46:49

King as far as the curse is found, right? That's what Jesus saves us to. He saves us from damnation.

46:56

He saves us from eternal condemnation under the wrath of a holy and just God.

47:02

But he also saves us to good works. And those good works have to do with extending his rule, building

47:09

God -honoring culture, and really overturning all the effects of the curse. So it's a creational view in which we're saying

47:17

Jesus is not just a spiritual king. He's not just a cosmically redemptive boss of my individual life or over the church's life.

47:27

No, he's actually the Lord of all creation. Like everything that's made, he has authority over.

47:33

It belongs to him because he made it. And Jesus put the stamp on that when he was raised from the dead and when he was ascended as King.

47:40

That's what the gospel is, because that's the gospel that the apostles were preaching, right? Acts 13, 32.

47:45

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, he has fulfilled to us, their children, by raising

47:52

Jesus as it is written in the second psalm. So the gospel of the kingdom is all wrapped up in this.

47:58

Amen. Yeah. I think one issue that sometimes gets overlooked in a lot of these conversations is, you know, a lot of times, you know, we tend to think, well, this is just an issue of, you know, wrapping together this issue on post -millennialism and stuff like it.

48:14

This is just an issue of eschatology, right? But I think in a lot of ways it's more of an issue of the gospel in terms of soteriology, because what ultimately a lot of people are saying is we cannot expect wide transformation or extensive transformation in the world today or in the next 50 years or in the next 500 years, ultimately because the gospel we have just isn't going to cut it, right?

48:47

The gospel we have is not powerful enough to bring about this vision of discipled nations.

48:55

And a lot of times they really do believe that the only way the nations are really going to change is at the second coming through, you know, through a violent judgment of God.

49:08

That's the only way the enemies of Christ are going to be subdued is on that last day in a violent manner.

49:15

But it's very interesting because that's not what the Scriptures teach at all.

49:21

You know, we could consider the fact that the Scriptures speak of the kingdom of God being like a mustard seed starting out slowly and growing into a large tree.

49:30

Or we can consider Psalms 110, which is also very important, and it speaks of Christ ruling in the midst of his enemies.

49:41

And that's a very interesting one, because that means that his rule does not begin when everything is pristine.

49:48

It begins in the midst of enemies. But the other thing that I always find very interesting is verse 3 of Psalm 110, because it says, your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power.

50:03

And so there's an element there of persuasion that does not happen in a top -down manner.

50:12

It's voluntary. And then we even see that in Isaiah chapter 2 where the nations blow to Zion, right?

50:20

The nations come, the nations seek out the Lord, ultimately. And that does not happen at the

50:28

Second Coming. At the Second Coming, that's fire falling from heaven, right? That's not the nations going out to seek the

50:34

Lord. And so I think it's very important to understand our political theology is connected to our belief in the power and the sufficiency of the gospel to transform hearts and minds over time, and to ultimately bring about this vision that we see in Scripture, that of nations submitting to Christ, and of enemies either being destroyed along the way, or enemies being turned into friends.

51:07

Right. Just like we were, right? We were once enemies, and God's redemption brought us from death to life.

51:16

Right. And we were brought under the Lordship of Christ. We were made His voluntary subjects because we saw

51:22

Him, and you know, we saw the glory of Christ, and we offer ourselves freely as living sacrifices to Him.

51:28

And that's, I love what you said there. It's how powerful is your gospel? You know, how much power do you believe that Christ actually possesses?

51:40

Yeah. It's like one of my favorite Joe Boot quotes is, he says, people always tell me

51:46

I have an over -realized eschatology, and my response is, I know you have an under -realized soteriology.

51:52

And that's exactly what we're talking about here. Man, good stuff. Okay, so let's tie this in.

52:00

I want to hear about where you live. So what I mentioned earlier that Nathan's very far away.

52:07

For example, it's like a hundred and ten here in Arizona today. We're literally kissing the sun.

52:14

Yeah, right. Nice. And it's like cold winter for Nathan.

52:20

And it feels like we're perishing. So I looked at a map before we started. So basically he's like far east coast.

52:29

He's on a different continent. Like US eastern, if you go straight down. And then like the southern tip of Australia, he's like, that's where he's at in Chile, which is insane.

52:40

Why are you there? Yeah, it's weird because we're east of the east coast, but we're on the west coast of South America.

52:49

And we're pretty far down. Yeah, I've lived here my whole life pretty much. My parents came down here when I was eight months old as missionaries.

52:57

And so I've lived here, yeah. And pretty much, I'm 37 now. So yeah, long time.

53:04

But I've also traveled a good bit to the States and gone back and forth. But yeah, it's definitely home down here.

53:11

And we live in Pichilemu, which is a small coastal town, about three hour drive from the capital from Santiago.

53:20

And yeah, part of an elder here at a little reformed church. And yeah, we love it here.

53:26

Our town is pretty well known. Mostly just well known for surfing, I guess. That's probably the biggest thing we have going here.

53:34

And we have really good surf breaks, good, good waves. And yeah, a lot of people travel here because of that.

53:42

Right on. So are you, are you a full time missionary? You do other work? Or how do you pay the bills?

53:50

Good question. Well, so right now, I've kind of transitioned into doing kind of filmmaking stuff.

53:57

Okay. Kind of full time. And also, yeah, I'm just serving as an elder at our church. And yeah, a few few other things along the way.

54:06

But yeah, mostly just making films these days. Is your is your wife from Chile?

54:11

Or is she from the US as well? Yeah, my wife is from Chile. Okay. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool.

54:18

Both. Both my kids are born here. And yeah, they have dual citizenship and all that.

54:24

Oh, nice. So what, what is the culture like? There? Is it similar to the US? Like, because, you know, we're having this conversation, everyone listening right now understands what we're talking about?

54:33

Because we're used to the US culture? Is it? Is it similar? Is it different? I mean, are you celebrating the new covenant month down there right now?

54:41

Like, do you have targets with? Or I know he's tar hit tar hits is I don't know how you say it in Spanish.

54:48

Like, are you know, do you have to put up with that kind of nonsense in June? Or what's it like down there? Yeah, I mean,

54:55

I would say, you know, and I've traveled a good bit it throughout South America and Latin America.

55:00

Yeah, a lot of the stuff from the states trickles down here and imagine other parts of the world as well.

55:06

Sure. And so we Yeah, we have all that craziness. We've also been going through a lot of political upheel throughout the you know, since 2019.

55:17

We had, you know, just kind of a whole uprising thing here. And yeah, we got into this mode where they decided we they wanted to rewrite the

55:30

Constitution of Chile. Wow. And or giant protests and all the all this stuff going on.

55:36

And so we've we had I think it was two or three constitutional conventions that were a joke.

55:43

And and that all happening, you know, throughout COVID and all that craziness. And finally, after spending all this money, energy and everything else, they the the last proposed constitution that would have been a complete train wreck got voted down.

56:00

And so so we've been in a time of a lot of political turmoil. Our president right now,

56:08

I think he's I don't know if he's the youngest in Chile's history, but somewhere along those lines.

56:14

And it's yeah, it's been a pretty terrible, terrible administration in that regard.

56:21

And, you know, I mean, just just to have an idea, Jacobin magazine was just, you know, singing his praise when they found out he was becoming president of Chile.

56:29

So so yeah, it's it's it's we're in a very complicated situation.

56:36

You know, obviously, evangelical Christians are the minority here and in our country.

56:42

Yeah, maybe 16 % or 20 % something along those lines. What's the dominant

56:48

Catholicism? Catholicism, but they they've lost a lot of steam over the church.

56:55

The Roman Catholic Church here has lost a lot of power, a lot of a lot of yeah, just socially and politically and everything else.

57:04

And so so yeah, things have definitely been trending more towards unbelief and away from any form of Christianity for for a while here.

57:15

So we're struggling with a lot of the same things you guys are. And we're probably in a in a much more difficult situation than than the

57:24

US is in a lot of ways. So it's some form of democracy, I'm assuming. Yeah, yeah, we saw some form of democracy.

57:32

What, what are the, you know, you said they're trying to change the Constitution, like what are the, the roots of the founding of Chile as an as a nation,

57:43

I'm assuming that we had a lot of heavy Roman Catholicism, and those roots. So, I mean, even like law structure, is it going to be similar to what we have here?

57:56

Anyways, I'm just curious what that looks like. Yeah, it's a good question. I think throughout all of South America, and and a lot of these different nations, you have, you have that the tradition of, you know, kind of the

58:10

American founding, and you have the tradition of the French Revolution. And so, you know, it kind of depends on on the nation you're in, which of those two traditions are more dominant, you know, and obviously, the the whole idea that the tradition of the

58:29

French Revolution is a lot more, you know, godless and a lot more, you know, and and is a lot different than that of the

58:37

American founding. So, you know, I think there's moments in Chile's history that it's been more, more to one side than to the other.

58:46

But yeah, I'd be definitely the people that are in power today are definitely on that on team

58:52

French Revolution, for sure. In that regard. What just curious what year was Chile founded?

58:58

Do you know? Oh, I don't remember. Was it it was after the US? Yeah, it was definitely after the

59:04

US. Well, we're about to have a birthday here pretty quick. Yeah, hopefully we have birthdays left for a while after this.

59:13

Things are trending in a very negative direction. Well, that's that's that brings me to the next question I have.

59:18

And I always, I always ask people from other nations, this question. We have, you know, we're up for a very interesting six months or so.

59:29

And I know that this election affects the world and other nations.

59:36

So I'm just curious, from your perspective, how this election here in the in the

59:41

US is going to affect you down there in Chile? Or do you think it will? I mean, I mean, it definitely will, obviously, because, you know, also the

59:51

US, as I said, they export a lot of these ideas, whoever's in power, you know, throws money into different causes that, you know, progressive causes around the world and all that.

01:00:03

And there's obviously pressure. You know, even if you had a conservative president or a conservative government, there's pressure from the

01:00:11

UN, there's pressure from these different international organizations, to do things a certain way and to structure things a certain way.

01:00:19

And so obviously, if you have a president that is all about that stuff in the US, that makes it very hard.

01:00:26

But if the US president is not about pushing some of those those agendas internationally, that's a better position for for everybody, you know, outside of the

01:00:36

US who's somewhat conservative, I guess. Okay, gotcha. Thank you. That's helpful.

01:00:42

So what are what is your freedom of speech laws? Like, I mean, you mentioned it was pretty crazy during COVID.

01:00:48

We had it pretty easy here and in Arizona, Arizona. Yeah. It relative to other places.

01:00:56

So like, are you? I'm curious, for the stuff that you're preaching right in these films?

01:01:04

Is it I'm imagining in some places in the US? Is it easier to be bold like that and speak out that it is in Chile?

01:01:13

Or is it similar? I'm just curious what the atmosphere is like. I mean, we do have a level of freedom of speech and freedom of religion,

01:01:20

I guess. I haven't received, you know, that much pushback in this context from the films and from from that,

01:01:29

I guess. But yeah, I mean, I would definitely say in a lot of areas, you know, especially, you know, issues like, you know, like, crime and self -defense and all that, like, the

01:01:43

United States offers a lot more liberties in that regard.

01:01:48

Also, you know, just in in legal fights for religious liberty or different situations,

01:01:54

I feel like the United States, you know, has has a lot of organizations, you know, has you guys and other people that are that are involved.

01:02:04

And yeah, I mean, you have a whole array of of groups and we're a pretty small, small, small bunch down here for sure.

01:02:11

And also, Chile is is a pretty small country. I think our population is something like 20 million people.

01:02:17

So, you know, compared to the U .S., that's it's tiny in that regard. Yeah. But yeah, definitely.

01:02:24

You guys, I would say, have a lot of a lot more opportunities and resources on hand of people trying to work in that that kind of, you know, to advance, you know, you know, at least conservative politics and even better if we're talking about actually, you know, a

01:02:44

Christian worldview perspective in that sphere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as long as Chile is, that's about one person per square mile,

01:02:52

I think. Yeah. He was telling us how long if you look at a map, it's crazy.

01:02:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super narrow. And and I think like a good percentage of the country lives in Santiago, though.

01:03:06

So it lives in the capital. I think it's like a third or something. Wow. So. So, yeah, it's an interesting situation.

01:03:13

Once you leave the capital city, there's a lot of, you know, open space, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And we were talking about like basically the whole southern portion is

01:03:21

Patagonia and probably not a lot of people live in there. And although it's beautiful there, but yeah, interesting.

01:03:28

That's very interesting. Well, cool. Why we're getting low on time. You got any other questions you want to ask him while we got him?

01:03:35

No, man, this has been great. So tell people where to go to find your stuff. Yeah, so you can find my well,

01:03:44

I guess the probably easiest would be just to go to my website, which is on earth film dot net.

01:03:51

And there's links to some of my social media there. And there's also links to where you can even watch the films that I produce there.

01:03:59

If not, you can just search on YouTube for on earth as it is in heaven. It should pop up or honor the sun.

01:04:04

Teach all nations. Those are all available on YouTube as well. So that's that's another way to do that.

01:04:10

And yeah, but probably through my website would probably be the easiest, most direct way.

01:04:16

Excellent. Well, thank you, brother, for being on today. And by the way, those who are all access stick around.

01:04:24

We will have Nathan on for a little bit on the after show to continue this conversation. But thanks for being on.

01:04:29

And I'm excited for this next project you're doing and looking forward to that. And definitely want to have you on on again in the future.

01:04:37

And if you got something coming up that you want to talk about, let me know. We'll see if we can find a spot for you. Awesome.

01:04:44

Thank you, guys. Thanks for thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll finish the show here.

01:04:51

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01:06:15

Oh, that's that was I was going to ask you, Nathan, real quick. What are the abortion laws like in in Chile? That that's a really good question.

01:06:25

So in very recent years, I think I'm getting all these controversies all jumbled together because so like 2000,

01:06:33

I think it was either 2018 or 2019. Up until then, abortion in all of its form was completely illegal here in Chile.

01:06:42

And I think in 2018 or 19, they passed a law to allow abortion in the in the case of your risk of life for the mother and in the case of rape and, you know, something, you know, whatever the three.

01:07:03

Yeah. Yeah. Exceptions are. So that's a very recent, you know, event.

01:07:09

And then that got all mixed together, you know, with what happened with our constitution and all that craziness.

01:07:16

Okay. So but that's where we're at today. And interesting. And so abortion still isn't very common.

01:07:24

I remember reading an article a while back of like a girl who tried to get an abortion based on kind of the the rape exception from like way in the south of Chile and no doctor would would do it, basically.

01:07:41

And she had to actually end up fly to Santiago to find a doctor who would be willing to to to do that.

01:07:50

And so, yeah, it's it's a we're in an interesting place. But yeah, not obviously, you know, as in a lot of places, things have been trending in that direction for a while now.

01:08:02

Wow, that's really interesting. Well, praise God. I mean, you're far better off than we are in that department. So, well, yeah, we'll talk.

01:08:10

I'll talk to you more about that, actually. I'm curious. That's more question. We talk about that in the after show. So, again, if you're all access, please stick around.

01:08:20

We'll be there in a few minutes to continue this conversation. And we thank you, every single one of you, the partners with us to help us keep the lights on, to help us have awesome dudes like Nathan on.

01:08:33

And we're super grateful. So next week, I don't know what we're doing next week. We'll figure that out.

01:08:40

Hopefully, Pastor Jeff will be back. So sounds good. Zachary, it's been a pleasure.

01:08:48

the sun. Nathan, thank you, brother. Everyone. Peace out.