The Ascension- Laborers' Podcast

Welcome, I hope it's on, welcome to The Laborer's Podcast. We're thankful that you're with us tonight. We're gonna talk about the ascension of Christ. We hope you will join us.

Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

I apologize for my hesitation there for a second. This is odd, this is not the first time this has happened, but StreamYard popped up and said that we are not connected to our Facebook links, which I'm disappointed in.

We're connected to Truth in Love YouTube, to Real Talk with Big John YouTube, Twitter. We are connected to Rumble, is that correct, Tyler?

Yep, Rumble is live.

And we are connected to Jay Antonello's, am I pronouncing your last name wrong as well?

Rob, let me ask you a question, Rob. How do I pronounce your last name? Is it Kniep or Kniepe?

If you ask Siri or Google, it's Kniepe.

As much as I butcher your heritage and your last name, you can call me whatever you want to.

See, I don't have this problem. My last name's three letters and nobody's really sure how to pronounce it.

Is it Knie or Knie?

I've always said Knie. Depends on what side of the family you're on. The hoity-toity members of the family have always said no, and the not hoity-toity, the commoners, it's always been noey.

Okay, so there's a debate there.

There's a debate.

Well, I'm Jay Antonello, by the way.

Antonello, Antonello. Oh my goodness.

The Reformed Rican.

The Reformed Rican, there you go.

And we are live on his YouTube as well. So, oh, we have two comments. The Reformed Baron.

Berean.

Berean. Somebody else has got to take over.

I'm serious.

Wow.

Somebody else.

With that being said, I'm going to ask the first question.

Ask the first question.

Glue her out of here. Oh my goodness.

Okay.

Rob, did you submit these questions?

I submitted these questions. I hope they're okay.

You got them, my gosh, out of the Reformed Berean. Apologies. Mr. Berean. Does the Ascension mark the end of anything in the ministry of Jesus? This is a two-part question. That's the first part. How does this relate to Jesus's words, on the cross, it is finished?

So I think, I mean, if I'll start, I think the Ascension marks the end of his, his earthly ministry in such a way, or in the sense where he is, he has been physically here during that time period in the first century.

That ministry is now complete, and he is going back to the Father.

Okay.

I think that's what the Ascension marks the end of.

And it's very full circle, I think, when you have Christ who emptied himself and came down and came into our world, and now he is, as he said he would, taking it back up again, that it was almost like a display of his glory as the exalted, resurrected Christ.

So he ascends in a cloud, which I can't get away from that, possibly pointing to Moses, who can meet with God in the cloud.

Interesting.

Brother Jay, if you don't want to add anything to that, the second part of that question, how does this relate to Jesus's words on the cross, it is finished? I mean, you can add to the first part of that.

If you want to.

Sure. Yeah, I mean, I would say that we have to keep in mind that Jesus, when he came down, he humbled himself, right? He emptied himself, he humbled himself, even though it wasn't something that he owed anybody, he didn't owe us anything, right?

In terms of keeping the law on our behalf, in terms of dying for our sins, he was very much a servant. But I think when Christ resurrected and ultimately ascended, the point that he was making is, this is who I really am, right?

The veil is lifted, and he shows more of his glory, right? Ultimately because, you know, I think it's Isaiah that says that he was, I'm paraphrasing here, but I think Isaiah said something along the lines of, he was nothing special to look at, right?

Like there was nothing special about him visually when he was first here on earth.

But

53, Isaiah 53.

It might be. Yeah, I honestly don't recall. So correct me, you know, where I need to correct you. But well, except before I guess the transfiguration, right? That was the only time that you could say that Jesus really showed his glory for a moment.

But the veil was lifted, you know? And so at his resurrection and ultimately ascension, Jesus, what he is doing, is he's showing not only is my work finished, I'm going to show you who I really am. So hopefully that makes sense.

Sure.

So I want to ask a question that's not in there, but it's kind of hitched to this, right? At least in my mind it's hitched to this. John chapter 20, verse 17. Jesus is talking to Mary. He says, don't cling to me since I have not yet ascended to the father, but go to my brothers that I am sending to my father and to my God and your God.

What's the significance of that statement? I'm not fishing really, so much as I've read that piles of times. I'm not sure why he said that.

Well, I think what we're seeing there is a glimpse of the idea of Christ having a glorified body, having atoned for sin, having finished the work. And his disciples didn't, that their bodies were still sown in corruption, that they were still very worldly in that sense.

I think that points to, again, that divide that he came to bridge. And so he came into our environment in order to provide a way for us to get into his, I think is what that points to.

Okay.

I'm thinking about this being post-resurrection and maybe putting myself in her shoes or their shoes. And he's talking to Mary. And here you have, of course, they've seen Jesus raise other people from the dead, but here Jesus himself fulfilled his prophecy, fulfilled his promise that he would return from the dead, return from the grave.

Here he is alive. And we know that they loved him, especially Mary Martha and their brother. I mean, they loved Jesus. And here this, and I could be wrong. I'm just kind of taking a plain reading of it.

Stop clinging to me. He's not finished. He can't stay. And there was this attachment. And I can relate to how we are with those that we don't wanna let go. Whether we don't wanna let them go when they pass or we don't wanna let them go if they have to go off to college or they're getting married or children are getting married.

But here in this greater sense, probably this agape type love with Christ. I mean, he left them once. And then here he has returned and she probably doesn't wanna let him go. That's kind of what I'm thinking.

He's like, I've gotta go. I've gotta send him my father. Do you think I'm off?

No, no, I just, actually I'm not fishing. I've read that. And I wondered, is there some kind of a, I mean, he stays for an extended period of time after this. This isn't like he's on his way up whenever she does this.

So I didn't know if there was a reason like, I don't know. We'll get into it in some of the other questions, but I hope so. But I just kinda wanna put that in my back pocket for right now. I'll bring it up again in a minute.

Is there anything anyone wants to add to the first question? Comments, concerns?

You may come back to me.

I was gonna say something.

Go ahead.

I was gonna say something, but I don't, you know what, this might be more so for one of the later questions. So I'm gonna hold off for now.

Okay.

I'm holding off for a later question too.

Okay.

Question number two reads, was the Ascension a fulfillment of any prophecy from the Old Testament?

The only one I can think of would probably be like, I think it was Psalm 68, if I'm not mistaken. I believe that Psalm 68 says something along the lines of, you know, when you ascended on high, you took many captives.

And if I'm not mistaken, I think Paul, at some point he quotes that Psalm. And I think what he was trying to do, not trying to do, but he did, is just point back to the OT and basically say, you know, even this was prophesied.

You know, the funny thing about the Psalms though, and I guess this could be a different conversation altogether, but the funny thing about the Psalms is that when they are used to confirm prophecy, was speaking about Christ, in their original context, it doesn't seem to be what the apostles are concluding, if that makes any sense.

So what I'm saying is, if you read the Psalm on its own, you wouldn't necessarily think, oh, this is clearly talking about Jesus, right? There are some prophecies that are very clear about Jesus. Like you said, you mentioned Isaiah 53, and man, that one's really hard to deny.

In fact, I don't know if you guys have seen online, these videos of like people that go to Israel and have Jewish people read Isaiah 53, but they don't know it's Isaiah 53. And they ask him, who is this about?

They'll say, oh, this is the New Testament. This is about Jesus. And they're like, no, actually this is from your Bible. This is Isaiah 53. So, there are certain passages in the Old Testament that are very, very clear.

If I recall correctly, I went back and I read Psalm 68, and I was like, man, this would have been really hard for me on its own to have been able to tie this to Jesus' ascension. And it was just interesting to me, how there are all these like, I guess you could say, like gems, right, hidden in the Old Testament, though you wouldn't necessarily think they are about Jesus, but the apostles later on confirm, yes, this is exactly what it was about.

So, that was just my thoughts on that.

Well, if I could pull that thread a little bit further in light of a comment we just got from the Reform Berean, asking about Elijah going up to heaven and whether or not that prefigures Christ in some fashion, which I personally think that it does.

There are a couple odd spots in the Old Testament where it seems that there are lowercase a ascensions. You have Elijah, you have Enoch, that to quote the King James, he walked with God and he was not, and God took him.

And we have Psalm 16. I actually was digging into this a little bit this week, because it ties in the book of Job, where I'm at right now, because Job is talking about death and whether or not there is a bright future ahead and whether or not I am just stuck here with my inheritance being maggots.

And Psalm 16 says, you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine only one to see corruption. And of course we read that as being about Christ's resurrection. Personally, I have a hard time thinking that we can separate the ascension from the resurrection in some real way in terms of logic, because if we take Christ as being the first fruits of them that sleep, as it says in 1 Corinthians 15, if we take him as being the first fruits of the dead, the firstborn of creation, such and such, I think logically we come to him going back, because first fruits, that brings us back to the Torah.

That brings us back to the harvest and how the first fruits of the harvest were to be given. The first things that came out of the harvest were given to God. And so if Christ is the first fruits of the dead, he is raised to be given back.

And so I think that logically, the ascension and the resurrection kind of go hand in hand.

So

I had this on my mind as well.

Okay.

It was interesting and, you know, it's hard to use the word ironic and all those words that we like to use, you know, the spirits involved. But I would, just like Tyler and the Reformed Berean, I was thinking about that as well.

All the connections back to the Old Testament that we see that Jesus, that, you know, we see Jesus talking about that, how he, all of the Old Testament, look, this is how it points to me. And he walks with them and eats with them and he points back to the Old Testament.

And it's not just the words, but it's the ascension of Elijah, the, you know, Enoch. You have Moses and you have the judges and you have Joseph and the temptation. I mean, all these characters and their lives, Jesus experienced a lot of these things, these Old Testament characters faced in their life.

So I see a lot of parallels between the Old Testament and Jesus' life and things that he happens in his life. All these things pointed to him, not just the words of the Old Testament, but the characters.

The pictures are a promise.

The pictures, yes, yes, absolutely.

Types of shadows.

Yeah. I think that the one that I always think about in the Old Testament is Daniel chapter seven, starting in nine. I kept watching our throne set in place. The ancient of days took his seat. His clothing was white as snow.

Hair on his head was white as wool. His throne was a flame of fire and his wheels were blazing fire. The rivers, a river of fire was flowing, coming out of his presence. Thousands upon thousands served him and 10 ,000 stood before him and the courts convened and the books were opened.

I watched them because the sound of arrogant words, the horns of speaking, as I continued watching the beast was killed and his body destroyed, given over to burning fire and the rest of the beast, their dominion, removed extensions of life, granted to them for a certain time.

Continued watching the night visions and one like the son of man was coming in the clouds of heaven and he approached the ancient of days and escorted before him and he was given dominion and the glory and kingdom so that those of every people, nation and language would serve him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion and not pass away. His kingdom is one, would not be destroyed. Whenever I used to read that, I would always think, and it's not because I ever put this together myself, but I watched Paul Washer do an interesting thing one time where he put that in Psalm 24 together.

And he said,.

He believes that that's what Daniel was talking about and David were talking about two sides of the same event.

And he said,.

Lift up your gates and rise up ancient doors and the king of glory will come in. Who is this king of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle. Lift up your heads or your gates and rise up ancient doors that the king of glory will come in.

Who is this king of glory? The Lord of armies. He is the king of glory. Whenever I heard Paul Washer put that together, I thought that couldn't have been a better example of what it must've looked like in the heavenly realm whenever Jesus took the throne.

Jay, is there

That's interesting because I had read something from Spurgeon some time ago where he tied those same ideas into the Beatitudes when Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

Jay, it's so interesting that the non-post meal quoted the ascension passage from Daniel.

Okay, listen, okay. We were reading that and I said, I'm gonna behave. I'm not gonna do anything. So Rob, now you're starting the problem.

I'm the troublemaker, I know.

First of all, you can't pronounce a name that saves your life.

That's true, that's true.

You would think somebody with the poorest handle of the English language would have the hardest time pronouncing Jay's name, but I'm good with it. I'm good with it.

Except for those first couple of weeks where I kept calling him Ray.

Ray?

Ray the Reformed Rican. For some reason, that's what I thought his name was.

That would be perfect, man. It would be like a triple R thing. I don't change my name legally.

It's not as exciting as you think having a double J name my whole life. You just let it go. You know what I mean? It's just...

Well, I don't know what my excuses are for the other episodes, but for this one, at least I know that it was the heat today. But I'm gonna blame the heat that is messing with my brain.

So I can't say with certainty, obviously, what Daniel is seeing, but I think that that vision of the Ancient of Days being approached by the Ancient of Days is clearly God taking the throne also, the concept.

And like I said, it's not something I put together. That's something that I read. No, I didn't read. I listened to Paul Washer in a sermon one time, put that together. And I'm not sure contextually how he got there from those sections.

So that's another reason I wouldn't take credit for because I don't know contextually how he put these two together. I don't know if during some research he had put these things together, but I do believe that Paul Washer's pre-meal.

I'm just gonna leave it alone like that. And we're gonna move on to the next question.

Well, in all seriousness, the question was, is the ascension a fulfillment of any Old Testament prophecies?

The short answer is yes.

Yes, and we looked at some of those, but from our perspective, just on a serious note, if anybody is unfamiliar, the partial preterist, the post-meal, I guess the all-meal as well, a lot of the pre-trib, the dispensational side, they'll see Daniel chapter 7, 13 and 14 there.

They'll see that as, what, the coming. But this is pointing to Jesus' ascension, essentially, where he's going up to the Ancient of Days. Not coming down, but coming up to the Ancient of Days. You see the word?

I like this Reformed Berean. I feel you, my brother, as I fall in that camp. Historic pre-meal, Paul. Unite. So are there any other Old Testament prophecies that y 'all wanna touch on somebody that fulfilled, or are, my goodness, are fulfilled by Jesus' ascension?

Well, I haven't looked at it in a long time. Jay, I just wanted you to correct me if I'm.

You gotta try to pronounce my last name again. Is that what you're trying to tell me?

No, I mean, I would like to give it another shot. I think I can do it. I'm not willing to give up. I think I can do it quickly. But just on those passages, I wanna make sure that I didn't, I'm going on the right track and I'm not leading people astray.

Is that how you see those as partial preterists?

No, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not trying to cause problems, like I said. But yeah, I mean, this is not something that is happening earthly. He's going up to the ancient of days. And so, that's my understanding anyway, so.

Gotcha.

Plasma Thunderbolt. Is there a chance that in one live session there are three historic pre-meal guys all talking about the same? What is up with this?

Where are you guys coming from, man? Hey, John, did you invite these guys on?

I don't know these brothers, but a guy named Plasma Thunderbolt, I'm telling you, that is like the manliest name of anybody on here right now.

We've got three on yours, the Reformed Rican YouTube page. And the one from Real Talk just left us.

I don't have that.

Thank you for those watching on Jay's channel. Thank you for watching the Laborers Podcast.

So, if we're okay with that, let's move to the next one for the sake of time. Was the ascension of Jesus necessary? If so, why? Kind of seems like we've been shut.

Well, I was gonna say this at the beginning, adding a question like you did that I didn't put down. And it may be, and they may not even use this, but I was thinking about modalism. And you guys correct me if I'm wrong.

Modals believe that God.

We're not laughing at you, Rob. We're laughing at Reformed Berean's comments. Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

No, it's okay. So, modals believe that Jesus or God only manifests himself in one form at one time.

I believe that's correct.

So, I was just curious if the ascension or the necessity of the ascension is an argument for the modalists. Do they use this argument?

Oh, I've heard Stephen Furtick straight up say that when Jesus ascended, he transformed into the Holy Spirit and came back.

See, and that makes no sense. I mean, the rest of scripture, I'm gonna leave it alone. I'm hosting, I'm hosting. Okay, somebody else.

I mean, if we go back to the upper room and we go back to the promise of Christ to send the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father, that doesn't add up. But it's better for me to go away so that he will come.

I think that gets, again, back to the idea of Christ as the first fruits that is harvested to be given. And so, the first fruits go back to God, are given to God, and then the Holy Spirit comes, and we are better for it.

So, for the sake of argument, I want you to read that portion of scripture where you're getting that from, Brother Tyler, so that nobody can say that you're just throwing this out there, everything above the table.

And while he's doing that, I wanna add to that, there has to be something to what he's fixing to read. Because in the book of Genesis, we see the three persons of the Trinity working on earth, right, or at least working simultaneously.

So, when he says this, to me, there is something about the glorified Savior that is different than any other time in history. And I don't know the answer to the question, truthfully, but I can remember it, King James.

John 16, picking up in verse five, says, but now I go my way to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me whither goest thou. I'm sorry, I'm reading King James.

No, go for it, bro, I'm good.

But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away. For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.

But if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he has come, he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment, of sin because they believe not on me, of righteousness because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more, of judgment because the prince of this world is judged.

You know, going back to the original question, I think most people would, I think, most people would immediately think, well, why did Jesus have to ascend? Well, he had to take his throne, right? And start really reigning.

Even if you're pre-mill, right? You guys believe that he is reigning now in heaven. So, you know, we're not gonna disagree on that. But I think what people often forget is that not only is he reigning, he is also taking the role of high priest, right?

Our high priest and our mediator, right? Okay, if I could just read Hebrews 4, 14 to 16, this is from the ESV, okay? So I'm not gonna be speaking in old English. It says, since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the son of God, let us hold fast to our confession, for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet without sin.

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Beautiful passage, obviously. But I think that it's one of the things that we have to keep in mind.

Jesus is not only in the heavens reigning, or he's not only there for the sake of reigning, he's there to be our mediator, right? He's there to be our high priest. He's there to advocate for us, right?

To say, they are my people. Father, forgive them. Father, have mercy on them. Because he understands, right? He understands us. He knows our weaknesses. He can sympathize with us. And I mean, you know, when it comes to ascending, that was one of the main reasons that I believe he had to ascend.

So.

I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me because scripture says that the earthly tabernacle is a picture of the heavenly tabernacle. And so there he must be to perform those duties. Though it's complete and finished, he is the greater, he is the ultimate high priest.

He is the sacrifice. All those things that he represents that pointed to him is those things in their perfection, which they all mirrored here on earth. And so, yeah, I totally agree.

So I wanna ask a question in the form of an answer. So when Christ returns, is all evil is gonna be destroyed with the brightness of his coming, right? So my thought has been, and then King James, I think it's in Acts, it says, I must needs go.

If I don't go, then the comforter cannot come. So as the second person of the Trinity exits in the ascension, and then the third person of the Trinity comes down and dwells in men, and the temple of God becomes men walking all throughout the earth, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, emboldened and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus Christ is still on the earth, glorified body, and the Holy Spirit is still on the earth, two persons of the Trinity in one place, can evil, can flesh exist with that much holiness in one spot, with that much glory on the earth?

Would it not destroy man?

Let me think about this before I open my mouth.

I mean, I see your logic, I mean, because you're elevating the holiness of God, the purity and the amazing awesomeness of God, and then our lack thereof, and it causes us to reflect on the scriptures that talk about us, you know, being undone, I'm unholy, I'm not unworthy to be, you know, be in your presence.

And so, you know, it makes sense, your thought process,.

But yeah. So,.

Again, you know, me going back to Christ being our mediator, we are covered by his righteousness right now.

That's correct.

You know, the thing that I think, that I always remember, when Jesus returns, we're gonna be in glorified bodies, right? We're going to be essentially made perfect, right? Adam and Eve, in a sense, were perfect before they sinned.

Right now, obviously nobody's perfect in the way that God is perfect. But, you know, what's the order? So it goes, adoption, sanctification, or am I missing something?

You're not sanctified before you're saved.

You're not sanctified before you're saved. No, of course, yeah, you're right. Salvation, adoption, sanctification, glorification, right? And so, when Christ returns, you know, the dead will be raised.

Those of us who are in Christ will have glorified, perfect bodies. I don't think that it's going to be something that, that we cannot be in his presence because we're covered by his own righteousness.

And we have been, we have been perfected in such a way that we can't stand to be in his presence. Actually, you know, speaking of which, one conversation that I had with one of my pastors recently, well, it was me and a couple of other guys, honestly.

We were talking about what, will we see God in the new heavens and the earth? He was saying, I believe that we're going to see Christ in his human body. I don't believe we're going to see the Holy Spirit or the Father because they're going to be in the fullness of glory and something that we cannot even bear to see.

If even the angels have to cover themselves from seeing the Lord, how much more are we not, even in perfected bodies, worthy of seeing the Father and the Holy Spirit? So these are things. Yeah, right.

I mean, that's the thing. I'm not trying, I'm trying to watch where I walk very carefully because I don't want to step into a big heaping pile of heresy.

I want to add something to that question. And this is a caveat now. I usually do not bring up my eschatological beliefs whenever I start to look at different portions of scripture, but I can't help but do this and remain consistent in this view, okay?

So 1 Corinthians 15, my absolute favorite portion of scripture throughout the whole Bible. If we skip down to verse 50, for context's sake, I'm not trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Somebody call me to the carpet if you think I've done wrong.

What am I saying, brothers and sisters? In the flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruption. Listen, I'm telling you a mystery. We will not all fall asleep, but we'll all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible and will be changed.

And we will be changed, for this corruptible body must be clothed, must be clothed with incorruptibility. And this mortal must be clothed with immortality. And when the corruptible body is clothed with incorruptibility, this mortal body is clothed with immortality.

Then the saying that is written will take place, death is swallowed up in victory, O death, where's your victory? O death, where's your sting? For the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is in the law.

But thanks be to God who gives us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the Lord's work, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

When I read that scripture, to me that bolsters the view that you can't, you can't be in the presence of the glorified risen Savior, while the Holy Spirit is here at the same time. Because even though we're redeemed, and even though we're made in right standing with God, and by way of adoption, we can call him Father, we're still corruptible according to that scripture, right?

We're still mortal according to that scripture.

And it says it must happen.

Before the saying comes to path, O death, where's our sting? O grave, where's our victory? So that's where I get the, just full, you know, full disclosure. That's part of why I have that viewpoint on that.

And I reserve the right to be wrong, but that's for consistency's sake, that's why I believe that.

I think that's a, that's actually a pretty astute argument, I would say. It's not something, like I said, it's not something that I've thought through very deeply about, to be honest with you. And so, you know, like for example, like the consideration of like, what if the Son and the Holy Spirit were in our presence at the same time?

That's never a question that even popped into my mind. So I would definitely have to give it some thought, but I think your argument is sound.

Let me ask you guys a question then.

Oh my goodness.

Do you guys think that Jesus still has the wounds from the cross as he's interceding?

I'm gonna go with. Yes, only because he tells Thomas to go ahead and feel his side, feel the wounds that he has.

Right, so I think we're all in agreement that they were there at his resurrection, that that body that died was the one that rose.

I think you're right. The book of Revelation says, I saw the lamb as if he'd been slaughtered as well.

Is that something I've often grappled with? Is there a wounded savior ruling and reigning at the right hand?

Oh, wounded, no.

Right, scarred, maybe.

Scarred, maybe.

But even then, you know, he has... The apostles weren't able to recognize him because his body had been changed, right? You remember that, right? Yeah, I do. Yeah, go ahead.