The Ascension- Laborers' Podcast

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Welcome, I hope it's on, welcome to The Laborer's Podcast. We're thankful that you're with us tonight.

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We're gonna talk about the ascension of Christ. We hope you will join us.

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Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network.

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Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ.

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Subscribe and follow The Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

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Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. I apologize for my hesitation there for a second.

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This is odd, this is not the first time this has happened, but StreamYard popped up and said that we are not connected to our

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Facebook links, which I'm disappointed in. We're connected to Truth in Love YouTube, to Real Talk with Big John YouTube, Twitter.

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We are connected to Rumble, is that correct, Tyler? Yep, Rumble is live. And we are connected to Jay Antonello's, am

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I pronouncing your last name wrong as well? Rob, let me ask you a question, Rob. How do

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I pronounce your last name? Is it Kniep or Kniepe? If you ask

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Siri or Google, it's Kniepe. As much as I butcher your heritage and your last name, you can call me whatever you want to.

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See, I don't have this problem. My last name's three letters and nobody's really sure how to pronounce it. Is it

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Knie or Knie? I've always said Knie. Depends on what side of the family you're on. The hoity -toity members of the family have always said no, and the not hoity -toity, the commoners, it's always been noey.

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Okay, so there's a debate there. There's a debate. Well, I'm Jay Antello, by the way.

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Antello, oh my goodness. The reformed Rican. The reformed Rican, there you go.

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And we are live on his YouTube as well. So, oh, we have two comments.

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The reformed baron. Berean. Berean. Somebody else has got to take over.

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I'm serious. Wow. Somebody else. All right, with that being said,

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I'm going to ask the first question. Ask the first question. Glue her out of here. Oh my goodness.

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Okay. Rob, did you submit these questions? I submitted these questions.

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I hope they're okay. You got them, my gosh, out of the reformed

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Berean. Apologies. Mr. Berean, does the

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Ascension mark the end of anything in the ministry of Jesus? This is a two -part question.

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That's the first part. How does this relate to Jesus's words on the cross, it is finished?

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So I think, I mean, if I'll start, I think the Ascension marks the end of his, his earthly ministry in such a way, or in the sense where he is, he has been physically here during that time period in the first century.

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That ministry is now complete, and he is going back to the

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Father. Okay. I think that's what the Ascension marks the end of.

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And it's very full circle, I think, when you have Christ who emptied himself and came down and came into our world, and now he is, as he said he would, taking it back up again, that it was almost like a display of his glory as the exalted, resurrected

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Christ. So he ascends in a cloud, which I can't get away from that, possibly pointing to Moses, who can meet with God in the cloud.

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Interesting. Brother Jay, if you don't want to add anything to that, the second part of that question, how does this relate to Jesus's words on the cross, it is finished?

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I mean, you can add to the first part of that if you want to. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I would say that we have to keep in mind that Jesus, when he came down, he humbled himself, right?

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He emptied himself, he humbled himself, even though it wasn't something that he owed anybody, he didn't owe us anything, right?

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In terms of keeping the law on our behalf, in terms of dying for our sins, he was very much a servant.

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But I think when Christ resurrected and ultimately ascended, the point that he was making is, this is who

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I really am, right? The veil is lifted and and he shows more of his glory, right?

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Ultimately because, you know, I think it's Isaiah that says that he was,

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I'm paraphrasing here, but I think Isaiah said something along the lines of, he was nothing special to look at, right?

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Like there was nothing special about him visually when he was first here on earth.

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But - Isaiah 53. It might be. Yeah, I honestly don't recall. So correct me, you know, where I need to correct.

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But well, except before I guess the transfiguration, right? That was the only time that you could say that Jesus really showed his glory for a moment.

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But the veil was lifted, you know? And so at his resurrection and ultimately ascension,

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Jesus, what he is doing is he's showing, not only is my work finished,

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I'm going to show you who I really am. So hopefully that makes sense. Sure. So I want to ask a question that's not in there, but it's kind of hitched to this, right?

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At least in my mind it's hitched to this. John chapter 20, verse 17.

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Jesus is talking to Mary. He says, don't cling to me since I have not yet ascended to the father, but go to my brothers that I am sending to my father and to my

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God and your God. What's the significance of that statement?

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I'm not fishing really, so much as I've read that piles of times. I'm not sure why he said that.

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Well, I think what we're seeing there is a glimpse of the idea of Christ having a glorified body, having atoned for sin, having finished the work.

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And his disciples didn't, that their bodies were still sown in corruption, that they were still very worldly in that sense.

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I think that points to, again, that divide that he came to bridge. And so he came into our environment in order to provide a way for us to get into his.

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I think is what that points to. I'm thinking about this being post -resurrection and maybe putting myself in her shoes or their shoes.

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And he's talking to Mary. And here you have, of course, they've seen

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Jesus raise other people from the dead, but here Jesus himself fulfilled his prophecy, fulfilled his promise that he would return from the dead, return from the grave.

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Here he is alive. And we know that they loved him, especially Mary Martha and their brother.

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They loved Jesus. And here this, and I could be wrong.

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I'm just kind of taking a plain reading of it. Stop clinging to me.

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He's not finished. He can't stay. And there was this attachment.

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And I can relate to how we are with those that we don't wanna let go, whether we don't wanna let them go when they pass or we don't wanna let them go if they have to go to college or they're getting married or children are getting married.

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But here in this greater sense, probably this agape type love with Christ.

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I mean, he left them once. And then here he has returned and she probably doesn't wanna let him go.

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That's kind of what I'm thinking. And he's like, I've gotta go. I've gotta send him my father.

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Okay. Do you think I'm off? No, no, I just, actually I'm not fishing. I've read that and I wondered, is there some kind of a,

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I mean, he stays for an extended period of time after this. This isn't like he's on his way up whenever she does this.

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So I didn't know if there was a reason like, I don't know. We'll get into it in some of the other questions, but I hope so.

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But I just kinda wanna put that in my back pocket for right now. I'll bring it up again in a minute. Is there anything anyone wants to add to the first question?

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Comments, concerns? You may come back to me.

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I was gonna say something. Go ahead. I was gonna say something, but I don't, you know what, this might be more so for one of the later questions.

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So I'm gonna hold off for now. Okay. I'm holding off for a later question too. Okay, question number two reads, was the

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Ascension a fulfillment of any prophecy from the Old Testament? The only one

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I can think of would probably be like, I think it was Psalm 68, if I'm not mistaken.

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I believe that Psalm 68 says something along the lines of, you know, when you ascended on high, you took many captives.

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And if I'm not mistaken, I think Paul, at some point he quotes that Psalm.

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And I think what he was trying to do, not trying to do, but he did, is just point back to the

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OT and basically say, you know, even this was prophesied. You know, the funny thing about the

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Psalms though, and I guess this could be a different conversation altogether, but the funny thing about the

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Psalms is that when they are used to confirm prophecy was speaking about Christ, in their original context, it doesn't seem to be what the apostles are concluding, if that makes any sense.

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So what I'm saying is, if you read the Psalm on its own, you wouldn't necessarily think, oh, this is clearly talking about Jesus, right?

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There are some prophecies that are very clear about Jesus. Like you said, you know, you mentioned Isaiah 53 and man, that one's really hard to deny.

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In fact, I don't know if you guys have seen online these videos of like people that go to Israel and have

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Jewish people read Isaiah 53, but they don't know it's Isaiah 53 and they ask him, who is this about?

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They'll say, oh, this is the New Testament. This is about Jesus. And they're like, no, actually this is from your Bible. This is

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Isaiah 53. So, you know, there are certain passages in the Old Testament that are very, very clear.

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If I recall correctly, I went back and I read Psalm 68 and I was like, man, this would have been really hard for me on its own to have been able to tie this to Jesus' ascension.

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And it was just interesting to me how there are all these, like, I guess you could say like gems, right?

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Hidden in the Old Testament. Though you wouldn't necessarily think they are about Jesus, but the apostles later on confirmed, yes, this is exactly what it was about.

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So that was just my thoughts on that. Well, if I could pull that thread a little bit further in light of a comment we just got from the

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Reform Berean asking about Elijah going up to heaven and whether or not that prefigures

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Christ in some fashion, which I personally think that it does. There are a couple odd spots in the

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Old Testament where it seems that there are lowercase a ascensions.

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You have Elijah, you have Enoch, that to quote the King James, he walked with God and he was not and God took him.

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And we have Psalm 16. I actually was digging into this a little bit this week because it ties in the book of Job where I'm at right now because Job is talking about death and whether or not there is a bright future ahead and whether or not

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I am just stuck here with my inheritance being maggots. And Psalm 16 says, you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine only one to see corruption.

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And of course we read that as being about Christ's resurrection. Personally, I have a hard time thinking that we can separate the ascension from the resurrection in some real way in terms of logic because if we take

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Christ as being the first fruits of them that sleep, as it says in 1 Corinthians 15, if we take him as being the first fruits of the dead, the firstborn of creation, such and such,

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I think logically we come to him going back because first fruits, that brings us back to the

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Torah, that brings us back to the harvest and how the first fruits of the harvest were to be given.

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The first things that came out of the harvest were given to God. And so if Christ is the first fruits of the dead, he is raised to be given back.

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And so I think that logically, the ascension and the resurrection kind of go hand in hand.

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I had this on my mind as well. It was interesting and, you know, it's hard to use the word ironic and all those words that we like to use, you know, the spirits involved, but I would just like Tyler and the

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Reformed Berean, I was thinking about that as well. All the connections back to the Old Testament that we see that Jesus, that, you know, we see

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Jesus talking about that, how he, all of the Old Testament, look, this is how it points to me.

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And he walks with them and eats with them and he points back to the Old Testament. And it's not just the words, but it's the ascension of Elijah, the, you know,

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Enoch. You have Moses and you have the judges and you have

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Joseph and the temptation.

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I mean, all these characters and their lives, Jesus experienced a lot of these things, these

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Old Testament characters faced in their life. So I see a lot of parallels between the

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Old Testament and Jesus' life and things that he happens in his life.

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All these things pointed to him, not just the words of the Old Testament, but the characters.

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The pictures are a promise. The pictures, yes, yes, absolutely. Types of shadows. Yeah. I think that the one that I always think about in the

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Old Testament is Daniel chapter seven. Starting in nine,

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I kept watching our throne set in place. The ancient of days took his seat. His clothing was white as snow.

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Hair on his head was white as wool. His throne was a flame of fire and his wheels were blazing fire. The rivers, a river of fire was flowing, coming out of his presence.

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Thousands upon thousands served him and 10 ,000 stood before him and the courts convened and the books were opened.

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I watched them because the sound of arrogant words, the horns of speaking, as I continued watching the beast was killed and his body destroyed, given over to burning fire and the rest of the beast, their dominion, removed extensions of life, granted them pertaining certain time.

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Continued watching the night visions and one, like the son of man, was coming in the clouds of heaven and he approached the ancient of days and escorted before him and he was given dominion and the glory and kingdom so that those of every people, nation, and language would serve him.

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His dominion is an everlasting dominion and not pass away. His kingdom is one, would not be destroyed.

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Whenever I used to read that, I would always think, and it's not because I ever put this together myself, but I watched

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Paul Washer do an interesting thing one time where he put that and Psalm 24 together. He said he believes that that's what

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Daniel was talking about and David were talking about two sides of the same event.

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And he said, lift up your gates and rise up ancient doors and the king of glory will come in. Who is this king of glory?

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The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, oh you gates, and rise up ancient doors that the king of glory will come in.

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Who is this king of glory? The Lord of armies. He is the king of glory. Whenever I heard

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Paul Washer put that together, I thought that couldn't have been a better example of what it must have looked like in the heavenly realm whenever Jesus took the throne.

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That's interesting because I had read something from Spurgeon some time ago where he tied those same ideas into the

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Beatitudes when Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

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Jay, it's so interesting that the non -postmeal quoted the Ascension passage from Daniel.

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Listen, okay? Listen, okay? We were reading that and I said, I'm gonna behave. I'm not gonna do anything.

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So Rob, now you're starting the problem. I'm the troublemaker, I know. First of all, you can't pronounce a name that saves your life.

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That's true, that's true. You would think somebody with the poorest handle of the

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English language would have the hardest time pronouncing Jay's name, but I'm good with it. I'm good with it.

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Except for those first couple weeks where I kept calling him Ray. Ray?

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Ray the Reform Recon. For some reason, that's what I thought his name was. That would be perfect, man.

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It would be like a triple R thing. I don't use my name legally. It's not as exciting as you think, having a double

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J name my whole life. You just let it go. You know what I mean? It's just... Well, I don't know what my excuses are for the other episodes, but for this one, at least

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I know that it was the heat today. But I'm gonna blame the heat. That is messing with my brain.

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Yeah. So I can't say with certainty, obviously, what

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Daniel is seeing, but I think that that vision of the

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Ancient of Days being approached by the Ancient of Days is clearly God taking the throne. Also, the concept.

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And like I said, it's not something I put together. That's something that I read. No, I didn't read. I listened to Paul Washer in a sermon one time, put that together.

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And I'm not sure contextually how he got there from those sections.

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So that's another reason I wouldn't take credit for because I don't know contextually how he put these two together. I don't know if during some research he had put these things together, but I do believe that Paul Washer's premium.

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I'm just gonna leave it alone like that. And we're gonna move on to the next question. Well, in all seriousness, the question was, is the

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Ascension a fulfillment of any Old Testament prophecies? In short answer, yes. Yes, and we looked at some of those, but from our perspective, just on a serious note, if anybody is unfamiliar, the partial preterist, the post -meal,

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I guess the all meal as well, a lot of the pre -trib, the dispensational side, they'll see

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Daniel chapter 7, 13 and 14 there. They'll see that as what the coming, but this is pointing to Jesus' Ascension essentially, where he's going up to the

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Ancient of Days. Not coming down, but coming up to the

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Ancient of Days. You see the - I like this reform Berean. I feel you, my brother.

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As I fall in that camp, historic pre -meal, reunite.

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Are there any other Old Testament prophecies that y 'all wanna touch on somebody from the fulfilled or, oh my goodness, are fulfilled by Jesus' Ascension?

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Well, I know I haven't looked at it in a long time, but Jay, I just wanted you to correct me if I'm -

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You gotta try to pronounce my last name again. Is that what you're trying to tell me? No, I mean, I would like to give it another shot.

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I think I can do it. All right. I'm not one to give up. I think I can do it quickly.

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But just on those passages, I wanna make sure that I didn't, I'm going on the right track and I'm not leading people astray.

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Is that how you see those as partial preterists? No, yeah,

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I think you hit the nail on the head. I, you know, I'm not trying to cause problems, like I said, but yeah,

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I mean, you know, this is not something that is happening earthly. He's going up to the ancient of days.

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And so, you know, that's my understanding anyway, so. Gotcha. Plasma Thunderbolt.

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Is there a chance that in one live session, there are three historic pre -meal guys all talking about the same -

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What is up with this? Where are you guys coming from, man? Hey, John, did you invite these guys on? I don't know.

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I don't know these brothers, but a guy named Plasma Thunderbolt, I'm telling you, that is like the manliest name of anybody on here right now.

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We've got three on yours, the Reformed Recon YouTube page.

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And the one from Real Talk just left us. So thank you.

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Thank you for those watching on Jay's channel. Thank you for watching the Laborers Podcast. So if we're okay with that, let's move to the next one for the sake of time.

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Was the ascension of Jesus necessary? If so, why? Kind of seems to have been shut.

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Well, I was going to say this at the beginning, adding a question like you did that I didn't put down.

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And it may be, and they may not even use this, but I was thinking about modalism. And you guys correct me if I'm wrong.

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Modals believe that God. We're not laughing at you,

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Rob. We're laughing at Reformed Berean's comments. Sorry, go ahead.

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I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, that's okay. So modals believe that Jesus or God only manifests himself in one form at one time.

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I believe that's correct. So I was just curious if the ascension or the necessity of ascension is an argument for the modalists.

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Do they use this argument? Oh, I've heard Stephen Furtick straight up say that when Jesus ascended, he transformed into the

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Holy Spirit and came back. See, and that makes, wow, that makes no sense.

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I mean, the rest of scripture, I'm gonna leave it alone. I'm hosting, I'm hosting. Okay, somebody else.

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I mean, if we go back to the upper room and we go back to the promise of Christ to send the

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Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father, that doesn't add up, but it's better for me to go away so that he will come.

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I think that gets, again, back to the idea of Christ as the first fruits that is harvested to be given.

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And so the first fruits go back to God, are given to God, and then the Holy Spirit comes and we are better for it.

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So for the sake of argument, I want you to read that portion of scripture where you're getting that from,

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Brother Tyler, so that nobody can say that you're just throwing this out there, everything above the table.

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And while he's doing that, I wanna add to that, there has to be something to what he's fixing to read because in the book of Genesis, we see the three persons of the

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Trinity working on earth, right? Or at least working simultaneously.

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Yes. So when he says this, to me, there is something about the glorified Savior that is different than any other time in history.

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And I don't know the answer to the question, truthfully, but I can remember

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King James. All right, so John 16, picking up in verse five, says, but now

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I go my way to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me whither goest thou. I'm sorry, I'm reading

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King James. No, go for it, bro. But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow has filled your heart.

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Nevertheless, I tell you the truth. It is expedient for you that I go away.

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For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you. But if I depart, I will send him unto you.

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And when he has come, he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment, of sin because they believe not on me, of righteousness because I go to my

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Father, and ye see me no more, of judgment because the Prince of this world is judged.

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You know, going back to the original question, I think most people would, I think, most people would immediately think, well, why did

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Jesus have to ascend? Well, he had to take his throne, right? And start really reigning.

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Even if you're pre -mill, right? You guys believe that he is reigning now in heaven. So, you know, we're not gonna disagree on that.

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But I think what people often forget is that not only is he reigning, he is also taking the role of high priest, right?

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Our high priest and our mediator, right? If I could just read Hebrews 4, 14 to 16, this is from the

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ESV, okay? So I'm not gonna be speaking in old English. It says, since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens,

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Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet without sin.

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Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

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Beautiful passage, obviously. But I think that it's one of the things that we have to keep in mind. Jesus is not only in the heavens reigning, or he's not only there for the sake of reigning, he's there to be our mediator, right?

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He's there to be our high priest. He's there to advocate for us, right?

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To say, they are my people. Father, forgive them. Father, have mercy on them. Because he understands, right?

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He understands us. He knows our weaknesses. He can sympathize with us. And I mean, you know, when it comes to ascending, that was one of the main reasons that I believe he had to ascend, so.

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I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me because scripture says that the earthly tabernacle is a picture of the heavenly tabernacle.

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And so there he must be to perform those duties. Though it's complete and finished, he is the greater, he is the ultimate high priest.

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He is the sacrifice. All those things that he represents, that pointed to him, he is those things in their perfection, which they all mirrored here on earth.

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And so, yeah, I totally agree. So I wanna ask a question in the form of an answer.

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So when Christ returns, all evil is gonna be destroyed with the brightness of his coming, right?

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So my thought has been, and then King James, I think it's in Acts, it says, I must needs go.

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If I don't go, then the comforter cannot come. So as the second person of the

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Trinity exits in the ascension, and then the third person of the

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Trinity comes down and dwells in men, and the temple of God becomes men, walking all throughout the earth, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, emboldened and empowered by the

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Holy Spirit. If Jesus Christ is still on the earth, glorified body, and the

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Holy Spirit is still on the earth, two persons of the Trinity in one place, can evil, can flesh exist with that much holiness in one spot, with that much glory on the earth?

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Would it not destroy man? Let me think about this before I open my mouth.

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Wisdom. Wisdom. I mean, I see your logic, I mean, because you're elevating the holiness of God, the purity and the amazing awesomeness of God, and then our lack thereof, and it causes us to reflect on the scriptures that talk about us.

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You know, being undone, I'm unholy, I'm not worthy to be in your presence. Isaiah.

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And so, you know, it makes sense, your thought there. So, again, you know, me going back to Christ being our mediator, we are covered by his righteousness right now.

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That's correct. You know, the thing that I think, that I always remember, when

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Jesus returns, we're gonna be in glorified bodies, right? We're going to be essentially made perfect, right?

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Adam and Eve, in a sense, were perfect before they sinned. Right now, obviously nobody's perfect in the way that God is perfect.

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But, you know, what's the order? So it goes, adoption, sanctification, or am

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I missing something? You're not sanctified before you're saved. You're not sanctified before you're saved.

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No, of course, yeah, you're right. Salvation, adoption, sanctification, glorification, right?

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And so, when Christ returns, you know, the dead will be raised.

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Those of us who are in Christ will have glorified, perfect bodies. I don't think that it's going to be something that we cannot be in his presence, because we're covered by his own righteousness.

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And we have been perfected in such a way that we can't stand to be in his presence.

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Actually, you know, speaking of which, one conversation that I had with one of my pastors recently, well, it was me and a couple of other guys, honestly.

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We were talking about, will we see God in the new heavens and the earth?

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He was saying, I believe that we're going to see Christ in his human body.

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I don't believe we're going to see the Holy Spirit or the Father, because they're going to be in the fullness of glory and something that we cannot even bear to see.

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You know, if even the angels have to cover themselves from seeing the

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Lord, how much more, you know, are we not, even in perfected bodies, worthy of seeing the

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Father and the Holy Spirit? So these are things, yeah, right. I mean, that's the thing.

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I'm trying to watch where I walk very carefully because I don't want to step into a big heaping pile of heresy.

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I want to add something to that question. And this is a caveat now. I usually do not bring up my eschatological beliefs whenever I start to look at different portions of scripture, but I can't help but do this and remain consistent in this view, okay?

34:11

So 1 Corinthians 15, my absolute favorite portion of scripture throughout the whole Bible.

34:18

If we skip down to verse 50, for context's sake, I'm not trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

34:23

Somebody call me to the carpet if you think I've done wrong. What am I saying, brothers and sisters?

34:30

In the flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruption. Listen, I'm telling you a mystery.

34:36

We will not all fall asleep, but we'll all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible and will be changed, and we will be changed, for this corruptible body must be clothed, must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.

34:55

And when the corruptible body is clothed with incorruptibility, this mortal body is clothed with immortality.

35:01

Then the saying that is written will take place, death is swallowed up in victory, O death, where's your victory? O death, where's your sting?

35:07

For the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is in the law. But thanks be to God who gives us the victory, through our

35:14

Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the

35:20

Lord's work, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. When I read that scripture, to me that bolsters the view that you can't, you can't be in the presence of the glorified risen

35:34

Savior while the Holy Spirit is here at the same time, because even though we're redeemed, and even though we're made in right standing with God, and by way of adoption, we can call him father, we're still corruptible according to that scripture, right?

35:54

We're still mortal according to that scripture. And it says it must happen before the saying comes to path,

36:01

O death, where's thy sting? O grave, where's thy victory? So that's where I get the full disclosure.

36:08

That's part of why I have that viewpoint on that. And I reserve the right to be wrong.

36:16

But that's for consistency sake, that's why I believe that. I think that's a, that's actually a pretty astute argument,

36:23

I would say. It's not something, like I said, it's not something that I've thought through very deeply about to be honest with you.

36:33

And so, you know, like for example, like the consideration of like, what if the son and the Holy Spirit were in our presence at the same time?

36:39

That's never a question that even popped into my mind. So I would definitely have to give it some thought, but I think your argument is sound.

36:48

I think - Let me ask you guys a question then. Oh my goodness. Do you guys think that Jesus still has the wounds from the cross as he's interceding?

37:01

I'm gonna go with yes, only because he tells Thomas to go ahead and feel his side, feel the wounds that he has.

37:09

Right, so I think we're all in agreement that they were there at his resurrection, that that body that died was the one that rose.

37:16

I think you're right. The book of Revelation says, I saw the lamb as if he'd been slaughtered as well.

37:23

Is that something I've often grappled with? Is there a wounded savior ruling and reigning at the right hand?

37:30

Oh, wounded, no. Right. Scarred, maybe. Scarred, maybe.

37:36

But even then, he has... The apostles weren't able to recognize him because his body had been changed, right?

37:46

You remember that, right? That like they were walking... Yeah, go ahead. That's where their eyes shielded from it.

37:52

I mean, there's wording in scripture that has always kind of baffled me a little bit. How did Jesus just walk through those guys that were trying to throw him off the cliff in Nazareth?

38:01

How did somebody not recognize who they're talking to, even though their hearts burned within them as they walked?

38:08

Were their eyes clouded supernaturally to keep them from seeing?

38:15

I don't know. I don't know. I leaned... Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Robert. No, no. Go ahead, pitch your thought.

38:22

I was just gonna say, I leaned towards his body was changed. His body was glorified in a sense.

38:30

But I think it was an indication, right? Everything that happens to Christ when it comes to his resurrection and everything afterwards points to what will ultimately happen with us as well.

38:42

And so I do believe... Now, I could be wrong. Just like you could be wrong. I definitely agree. But I do believe that Christ had a perfected body and that's why they weren't able to recognize himself, even though he kept some of his old scars.

39:00

And you guys were talking about his scars. And that causes me to reflect on my perception of what

39:07

I see. So when I see something like that in myself or someone else, I'm seeing a deformity.

39:14

And with Jesus in his glorified, perfected body, having those scars remain is a glory to the father.

39:26

Not a deformity, but a glory to the father. Yeah, that's interesting. And so it causes me to reflect on how

39:35

I perceive things, the suffering. And Tyler, you hit on a lot of this in your teachings at the conference last year.

39:43

The sufferings that we go through, it's for God's glory, not my deformity.

39:48

Not for my harm, but for my good and his glory. Does that not really speak to the love that God has for us, that he would give us glorified bodies and wipe every tear from our eye, but he himself carried the scars of the price he had to pay to save us from our sin?

40:08

Yes, sir. Hallelujah. Amen. And that's exactly what

40:14

I was getting at. Absolutely. Well, we got a question from the Reformed Berean on Matthew 27, 52.

40:22

And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. Little Pentecostal.

40:30

Amen. This is of course when Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up the ghost.

40:38

And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom, and the earth quaked and the rocks split.

40:47

I got a theory on it, but I can't prove it with scripture, so I'm hesitant to say it. I've always thought of Matthew 27, 52, just again, you know, signs and wonders, right?

41:01

Like you said, I'm not trying to get charismatic, but I do believe that signs and wonders were used over and over again by Jesus, by the prophets, by the apostles to confirm the word of God, right?

41:15

And so if Jesus is who he says he is, he dies, and then these people come back to life.

41:23

He gives them life. I mean, if you go down a couple of verses, the centurion, right?

41:29

And some who were with him, they were keeping watch over Jesus. They saw all that took place.

41:36

The expression is truly this was the son of God, right? And so we're seeing these signs of people being resurrected, all these amazing things happening.

41:45

It's like, yeah, there he is. You know, it's confirming that he is who he said he is, which is, could you imagine being there and just seeing all this stuff happen?

41:56

I mean, but you know what's amazing to me? And it has nothing to do with this conversation. There are people who saw this and still didn't believe.

42:06

Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Like that blows my mind. Yeah. I've not gotten to the point yet where there's more looking into it than I need to do, but I mean, this is a resurrection.

42:26

It says a resurrection of the saints, but there is, when it comes to eschatology,

42:31

I mean, there is resurrection spoken of.

42:36

And so I don't know if full preterists use this as, see, this has been fulfilled already, you know, evidence, or this is a partial preterist can use this as one of the resurrections.

42:52

I've not gotten there, but I do know, I mean, this is, I believe this is a literal resurrection of the saints.

42:59

Absolutely. I'm going to say it, and then

43:05

I'll take the rocks as they go, and I'll do my best to duck them. I think that this is such an impossible thing that is happening that for a moment, all of creation just went wacky, cracking, ruptured, wackadoodle upside down.

43:29

God died, and we don't take time to ponder on that.

43:35

The giver of life, the sustainer of the universe, the keeper of everything, the one who spun everything into existence, uphold it by his own hand, spoke it into existence, ex nihilo, dies.

43:50

And I just, I can't imagine what that looks like in the spiritual world.

43:56

I can't imagine what that looks, you know, you're talking about, did

44:02

Abraham's bosom and the lower sheol, did they like crack for a second?

44:08

I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, it sounds crazy, wackadoodle in my head. I don't even want to say it all out loud, but I think it was just such a massive explosion of who

44:18

God is. It's sort of like whenever that woman pressed through the crowd and grabbed him, he says, I have sensed virtue has left from me.

44:26

You know, he didn't, anyway. I just, I do think that, you know, that God died physically only, obviously, though, you know, spiritually speaking, there probably was, you know, there's that, that's actually a good conversation, right?

44:42

Like the apostles' creed, where it says that Jesus descended into hell, right? What happened to Jesus after he physically died?

44:49

Now, obviously I don't believe that he died, right? Like he died, but he did physically die.

44:57

Why, why do I say what I'm saying? Because, you know, I was thinking about John 11, 25.

45:04

It says, Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

45:11

So if you believe in Jesus and you live, even though you die, how much more is

45:16

God, Jesus, still alive, even though he dies? Does that make sense?

45:22

So going from the lesser to the greater. Well, you know, to some degree, to some degree, nobody,

45:32

I mean, you're going, you're created with eternity in mind, eternity in heaven or eternity in hell, right?

45:38

Let's just be real about it. And at least I believe that those who go to the lake of fire are there eternally.

45:45

I don't believe that their souls are destroyed and then they cease to be like some cults believe and things like that.

45:52

I assume we all agree on that, right? That hell is forever, just like heaven is forever.

46:00

Oh, yeah. You're referring to like annihilationism and things like that. Yeah, I don't know what exactly it's called.

46:06

I heard a fella say it one time on YouTube and I couldn't believe he said it and lived. You know, I just figured something was gonna happen.

46:15

So where Christ is, you know, what's unique is that he's God. He may have been born, but there was never a time when he wasn't, right?

46:26

So his physical death has got to be different than our physical death because though we were created with eternity in mind, we were created.

46:36

He was not created. He has always been. And I believe I'm of the mind that he has always existed in what we now know as his risen form.

46:46

I believe that when Adam was crafted, he was crafted in the physical image of Jesus of Nazareth. So do you guys think, this is such a, this topic has led us into subtopics that I never imagined we would even discuss, but this is kind of amazing to me.

47:04

So do you guys think, you know, going back to what I had mentioned earlier about the Apostles' Creed, you know, one of the part of the

47:10

Creed says he descended into hell. Do you guys think, do you guys think that that's correct?

47:15

Do you think that it should be rewritten as he descended to Hades, which would be different? Which hell are we talking about?

47:23

Right, that's the question, isn't it? I mean, what do you do with that spot when

47:28

Peter says he preached freedom to those in bondage? That's the same thing that he's talking about with the

47:35

Apostles' Creed, in my mind. That's what I'm saying, I think that's where they get it. Well, and I think it also goes back to Paul quoting

47:42

Psalm 68, where he, he who descended also must ascend, or he who ascended must descend one or the other.

47:50

It's the other, and I believe that that's talking about he came from heaven to earth, and then he left earth for heaven, right?

47:57

But he brought the captives. It talks about bringing captives, and a lot of times we think about captives being the

48:03

Old Testament saints, and him preaching to the Old Testament saints. And I would agree with that. Now let's think about the thief on the cross.

48:09

What were the words he said to him? Today you will be with me in paradise. Where? In paradise. So if paradise is

48:15

Abraham's bosom as we understand it, at least I assume, I don't know to whom we're listening, to who's listening, that they understand that.

48:22

Anybody want to give a very quick dissertation on what I mean when I say Abraham's bosom? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to explain because these are the things where like, people simplify it, right?

48:34

Like, by the way, I just want to mention one quick thing. Plasma Thunderbolt said that the original

48:40

Greek was Hades, which is true. That's why I said, you should, there's a debate, right?

48:45

Should it be Hades? Should it be Sheol? Which is essentially the same thing, just in Hebrew.

48:55

There's a parable that Jesus teaches, right? On the, I think it was a rich man who goes into Hades.

49:04

And there's a great chasm between him and those who are in Abraham's bosom.

49:10

So it seems that this place of where all the dead go, right, there's a paradise, so to speak, where we, what we describe as Abraham's bosom.

49:22

And then there's a sort of a, I heard somebody once described it like this.

49:28

Imagine that you commit a crime, you're arrested and you're put in jail, right?

49:33

So while you're in jail and you can't post bail, so you're gonna stay in jail, you're waiting until you are judged when then you will be ultimately sent into what we would call the eternal fire, the lake of fire, prison, essentially.

49:54

And so this is one of those very interesting things because when

50:01

Jesus died, right? He told the thief on the cross, you will be with me in paradise.

50:08

Was that what he was talking about, right? Was he, did he go into Sheol, did he go into Hades?

50:15

And if so, should we even be calling it hell? Because hell, you know, we associate with that side of Sheol that we call, we would call a jail and ultimately, right, the prison.

50:25

But the word Sheol literally means grave. True, but it was used in context.

50:33

It was used not simply as just grave. It was, you know, the alternative was Hades in Greek, which is the, not the world, but like the place of the dead.

50:43

And that's how the old Hebrew or ancient Jewish people would use it as.

50:49

It wasn't, they weren't just referring simply to a physical grave. They were referring to a place where the dead go.

50:57

Well, okay, so let's hammer out what some call parable, what some don't call parable.

51:10

So let's hammer out what some people call parable.

51:20

So let's hammer out what some people call parable. So let's hammer out what some people call parable. So let's hammer out what some people call parable. So let's hammer out what some people call parable.

51:29

So let's hammer out what some people call parable. So let's hammer out what some people call parable.

51:54

So let's hammer out what some people call parable. So let's hammer out what some people call parable.

52:03

I digress. So there appears to be, as you said, a chasm between these two places, and you cannot get there from here, right?

52:13

You just can't get there from here. There ain't no roads what lead between this chasm. So my thought process is that those who were in the bosom of Abraham were awaiting the

52:28

Messiah and were believing on God that they would have a Messiah. And that's where Jesus went.

52:36

And whenever he went into the grave, he opened up that door to hell and released those people.

52:45

That's what I believe. And I believe that in the book of Revelation, is it chapter 20? My more eschatologically astute brothers, is it 20 where it says that the sea gives up its dead and hell gives up its dead and all those names who aren't written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire with the beast, the false prophet with hell in the grave?

53:05

Or am I wrong? It treats hell as this personification of hell.

53:10

And so that it acts as if though, not only are the people that were once in this prison waiting for judgment are thrown into the lake of fire, but also the prison is thrown into the lake of fire.

53:22

Yeah. Is that, am I tracking right? Yeah, that sounds right. Brother Jay? I'm double checking to see if that's

53:29

Revelation 20. I know what you're referring to, I just don't remember exactly where it is. It may be 21.

53:47

So that's the way I've always thought. Again, I reserve the right to be wrong, but there's something special about the encounter he has with the thief on the cross where Jesus would say today, you'll be with me in paradise.

53:59

And then we see the graves open up and resurrection happen of saints.

54:04

Well, the word that we translate as paradise in Greek is,

54:10

I might be slaughtering the coin a little bit, but it's paradisio. And the earliest use of that in the

54:18

Jewish scriptures is actually Genesis. Then in the Greek Septuagint, we find that word being used in place of Eden.

54:27

Okay. You might be able to understand that as you shall be with me in Eden.

54:34

That's a word that they had associated with Eden. They'd long been translating it as the Hebrew equivalent of Eden.

54:41

That's interesting. It's very interesting. Which in my post -mill mind makes perfect sense because he is making all things new.

54:49

We're essentially going back to Eden before the fall. Yes, absolutely. Now I know that's not unique to post -mill, but I'm just saying.

54:58

By the way, John, verse 14 in Revelation 20. And this is where I was confused because you said hell.

55:06

And I was wondering, are we making a distinction between hell and Hades, or are we saying they're the same thing?

55:12

Because the verse here in the ESV says, then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

55:18

This is the second death, the lake of fire. I want to say, well, I tend to remember scripture in the

55:24

King James. It's weird. I don't study it any longer, but when I remember it, that's how I remember it. That's the part for me that gets confusing because sometimes we use hell and Hades and Sheol as overlapping things, but I don't know if they're the,

55:40

I don't think we can say they're the exact same thing. They are related. I don't know that we can't, but I think we can.

55:49

I think we can. Most people that I've heard that have not worried too much about it, just simply say that they're all going to end up in the same place eventually.

56:02

Let's see if your boy, Mr. MacArthur, has something to say about it. It's the first study Bible I picked up here.

56:09

You got J. Maxx study Bible over there? Yeah. I mean, just cause I don't believe in everything he says, don't mean

56:15

I wouldn't take some. No, that's fine. I mean, you eat the fish and spit out the bones, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. I've got it up here there myself, so.

56:23

His new King James here says death and Hades, and he's got a mark here. First describes final judgment on believers.

56:31

Then the resurrection has come. Okay, so according to J. Maxx here, our Lord referred to this event as the resurrection of condemnation.

56:40

In John chapter 5, 29, this judgment takes place in the indescribable void between the end of the present age and the creation of the new heaven and the new earth, whatever that means.

56:55

That's too many words there for me to understand. So I'll leave that up to Tyler.

57:02

See, I didn't poke the bear with 1 Peter 3, 19 because I necessarily believe that, but I've got a good friend that does.

57:12

Personally, I would take that line from the Apostles' Creed that, kind of like R .C. does, that he descended into hell, meaning that he experienced the most human experience possible and died.

57:23

That he experienced the fullness of a human birth, a human life, and a human death. But I wouldn't necessarily take that stance that he descended into hell, the grave, whatever we wanna call it, and that he robbed hell.

57:40

So then my kickback on that would be, as somebody who does think that he's talking about upper sheol that he entered into, or paradisio, or whatever, the bosom of Abraham, is the statement where he says that, just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale, or the fish, for three days and three nights, so must the son of man be in the belly of the earth, right?

58:04

And the common, at least I think the common understanding for Jewish people that he would have been talking to is that was where sheol was, was in the belly of the earth.

58:13

Or am I incorrect in that, Tyler? Okay, I don't have a rebuttal for that.

58:20

I think I've heard that as well. And then you have, I mean,

58:26

I think I grew up hearing, when I say elders, people older than me, grandparents, and folks that have these discussions, and I think,

58:38

I wanna say that I think I heard them talk about their understanding of hell being maybe at the center of the earth, something like that.

58:48

I was looking at a chart yesterday on the Jewish concept of the world, with the firmament, and they had the earth, and the pillars, and they had sheol, because Job 7 talks a little bit about sheol, and going down into the grave.

59:04

I'll see if I can find that for you guys later, but from what I'm understanding, the

59:10

Jewish concept for a long time was that the earth was flat, and at the very bottom, you had sheol.

59:20

Okay, I don't know where we are on time as well. We got one minute. So let me throw a couple questions out there.

59:27

Oh man, which one of these? Let me ask you this question real quick.

59:34

Going back to the necessity, and this, I don't know that I can pick out a verse. Maybe we could find where there's a biblical concept, but we're talking about the necessity of the ascension.

59:46

Of course, it was necessary that he go so that the Holy Spirit could come, but I'm reflecting on how they, how they behaved when

59:58

Jesus was there, and when Jesus crossed over the sea, went to the other side, and they followed him, and he said, well, who are you looking for?

01:00:08

And you're just looking for me to have your bellies full. Okay. And so if Jesus, when he was resurrected, he was on this earth, and he stayed here, he would live forever, but they would, it seems like they would continuously be coming after him for those miracles, not him himself, and that will be another need of the

01:00:31

Holy Spirit. We need the Holy Spirit for that. See, I like where you're going with that. I like where you're going with that.

01:00:38

So in my mind, if Christ does not leave, then the indwelling of the

01:00:44

Holy Spirit cannot happen, and if that does not happen, then you cannot be saved. Right, sure, yeah.

01:00:50

So the atonement for sin has been made on the cross, but there's still no salvation, right?

01:00:58

Without the application. Without the application and the Holy Spirit impartation. So, and that rhymed without even trying, by the way.

01:01:05

I'm gonna take up wrapping next. So in which case, it still doesn't really answer the question why

01:01:13

Jesus couldn't stay and the Holy Spirit be on the earth at the same time as well, you know, and I'm not trying to defend modalism.

01:01:21

You know, I believe it is a heresy, but I think that there still has to be something as to why the

01:01:27

God who says everything's possible said I gotta go or this can't happen, right? There's something to that, and there's just a mystery,

01:01:34

I suppose, to me. Right. But I honestly, I think your explanation makes total sense.

01:01:42

Now, obviously, we would have to search the scriptures, see if there's any contradictions there, but at face value, what you're saying about, you know, the glory and holiness that would be in our presence would be too much to bear.

01:01:55

I think that might actually be an accurate conclusion. The only thing

01:02:02

I would say adding to that is perhaps the

01:02:08

Holy Spirit cannot come without Christ taking his seat on his throne. I would have to work that out a little bit.

01:02:16

Maybe it's kind of a little bit of both. What do you guys think? Well, we've already stroked my brain.

01:02:24

Right, yeah. I mean, I've given you all I've got. Whatever that mystery is, it does have to do with Christ ascending and the

01:02:33

Holy Spirit coming. And yeah, I wish

01:02:39

I had more insight onto the mysteries in that and the glories in that.

01:02:44

I mean, it's just like you said, John, you know, the God who can do, you know, anything that is within his perfection, within his character.

01:02:59

Why couldn't Jesus and the Holy Spirit stay? Why must he go and the

01:03:04

Holy Spirit not be here as well? It's just a glorious mystery that we'll get to partake of as we see him face to face and meet him in glory.

01:03:18

This will be a good place to stop. I wanna say that the last two questions just have to do with the timeframe.

01:03:26

If you guys who are watching and us ourselves, if you wanna do any more research, I was kind of thinking in my mind, well, was there any significance between the 40 days between the resurrection and ascension and then the 40,

01:03:41

I think it was months or 40 years from the resurrection or the crucifixion to 70

01:03:48

AD? Of course, I'm kind of showing my hand and throwing a little partial preterism in there. But the 40 thing, you know, there's 40 days here, 40 years here.

01:03:59

Is there any significance? I found that interesting to think about and reflect on.

01:04:05

Well, without getting into numerology and all of that, I think there is significance because the patterns are often there.

01:04:15

I think the Old Testament seems to paint for us this picture of 40.

01:04:21

Let me see this. I'm a good bit in the Old Testament. You have 40 days of rain with Noah.

01:04:29

You have the Israelites wandering for 40 years in the wilderness. I think there's a pattern established by God of 40 having some significance without turning it into some magical kind of mystical thing.

01:04:42

And so I would encourage you guys to dig into that a little bit. The one thing

01:04:47

I did think about, and I'll just say this, is, you know, 40 years passed between Israel's leaving

01:04:55

Egypt to make it into the Promised Land. And so I tie the 40 years between Jesus and 70

01:05:08

AD as an overlap between the Old and New, right? The Old Covenant, New Covenant.

01:05:15

And so it just seems to me like there might be something there. You know, I honestly haven't seen any commentaries confirming that, but that thought did come to my mind when we were, you know, when you guys first sent over the questions.

01:05:30

So just wanted to share that. It's something to think about. Well, and you also have the 40 years in the wilderness with the

01:05:36

Israelites, and then you have the, it seems like the

01:05:42

Jesus being in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, that kind of parallel there with Jesus and his temptation.

01:05:52

And then you have this period of 40 days between his resurrection and ascension.

01:06:00

And so it's just something to dig into and see if there are any other parallels. Michael, and I definitely do not know how to say his last name correctly.

01:06:10

It's like say, Michael say. Did we get that right, Michael? Yeah, let us know if you got that right, if we got it right, and also leave us another message on where we can find those reasons in Daniel.

01:06:22

We'll definitely be looking that up. I think you're referring to maybe why Jesus must ascend.

01:06:30

And maybe I think he's referring to six reasons in Daniel. And so with that being said,

01:06:35

Michael, we look forward to those answers. The Reformed Berean says that -

01:06:44

Plasma Thunderbolt. Plasma Thunderbolt. We thank you guys so much for your interaction and comments tonight.

01:06:49

Absolutely. It was so fun to interact with you guys and see you guys joining in with us.

01:06:57

I want to thank Tyler and John and Jay. And I want to say this. You guys were alluding to this already, speaking about the gospel and needing the

01:07:07

Holy Spirit to be saved. We've already been alluding to the gospel. And I want to say this with all sincerity.

01:07:14

I do strive, even though it doesn't seem that way, for excellence.

01:07:21

I want to do this well so that God is glorified and that I'm not belittling his name or character.

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And so I know that I do in my humanity in my mispronunciation.

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So my sincerest apologies always to Jay and to the Reformed Berean.

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And every time I stumble and I mispronounce you guys' names and that to me, you guys show me the grace, grace of God and grace of the

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Holy Spirit. You know, showing the evidence of work within you when we disagree with one another theologically, when we mess up pronunciations, we show each other grace.

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And I think that is a beautiful example to those who may be watching or listening of who our

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God is, that he can bring together in unity brothers of different backgrounds, different heritages, heritages, nationalities face, not face, but denominations around the gospel, around the personal work of Jesus Christ.

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And without him and without the Holy Spirit regenerating us, we could not do this.

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We could not get along. We could not share grace with one another. We couldn't be saved. We couldn't see our simpleness and we couldn't see

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Jesus as the person and the savior that he is, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so we would plead with you, let nothing that we do where we fail or we stumble, get in the way of seeing

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Jesus because he is the perfect one. He is the one who came from heaven to earth to live the life that we couldn't live and take the punishment on the cross that we deserve so that we could live forever, so that we could be forgiven, so that we could be changed now and be more like him.

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And so we would encourage you to, if you've not done that, to repent of your sins, turn from them and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

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That's only thing worth investigating in this whole world of all the things that are going on on social media, with natural disasters, with politics.

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The only thing truly worth investigating and knowing is the creator

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God, his son and the Holy Spirit. So we would pray that you would seek him today.

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Would anybody like to volunteer to close us in prayer? Sure. I'd be happy. Let's pray.

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Father, we come to you in Jesus' name. There's no other name. There's no other name under heaven by which men may be saved.

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That precious name of Jesus. I ask that you make much out of the podcast. I ask that you make much out of the men's lives that are spent dedicated to studying, worshiping you.

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Lord, I pray that you bless them. I pray that you give them opportunities to share your gospel everywhere they go and that you empower them to do so by your

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Holy Spirit. Lord, I believe it's the desire of everybody on here to see much men of your cross, but not be for no other reason.

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Don't let us ever become boasted, lifted up in pride and think it's about anything other than the proclamation of the gospel.

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Let these words be on our lips for the rest of our lives. Bless these men. Bless those that listen.

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In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you everyone for watching

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The Laborer's Podcast. We really appreciate it. And we hope that you will join us next time.

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Thank you for joining The Laborer's Podcast. Remember, Jesus is

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King. Live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ. And go share the gospel of Christ.