Why Theology? :: A Night of Eschatology

What is up, guys? My name is KJ, and this is Y Theology. Today we got a very special episode. I got a couple of special guests on here, Creston Thomas, Pastor Jeremiah, and Mr. Zach, or Pastor Zach. Today we're going to be, I guess we will have our own night of eschatology.

But before we do that, let me read these verses. Before I do that, can you guys all introduce.

Yourselves? Yes, I guess I'll go first. I'm Jeremiah Nortier, and I have the honor of serving at 12 Five Church in Jonesboro. That's the name 12, the number five church here in Jonesboro, so please check us out on our website.

And so tonight, I'm really looking forward to just discussing the gospel and our blessed hope in the manner that Jesus will be returning. So KJ,.

Thanks for having me back on. No problem, man. Yeah, I'm Zach Davis. I pastor First Baptist Church in Marktree, Arkansas, up here in Northeast Arkansas. Glad to be with you guys. Thanks for having me.

I'll be representing the post-meal position and hopefully shedding some glorious.

Hope on this conversation tonight. Hey, thanks KJ for inviting me, and Jeremiah for inviting me on the podcast. I'm Creston Thomas. I serve at Christ Redeemer Church in Pine Bluff, and man, I've been wanting to have a good conversation, discussion about this topic for a while.

I think the church, the universal, the invisible church needs this conversation more. So I'm just honored today to.

Be invited to be with you guys here tonight. And hopefully we have us a really good discussion already, get to these questions and the answers. But let me read the text for us. You guys don't know, we're in Revelation chapter 20.

A lot of this, before I do that, we're talking about something that's known as eschatology. If you guys aren't familiar with my episodes, my very first episode, I kind of dealt with kind of the, that's the general broad definition of what eschatology is, and breaking that down.

But in short, we're dealing with the study of last things. Now it's kind of broad. Eschatology is more than just Revelation 20. It's talking about things such as resurrection, you know, heaven, the final state.

There's a lot of things to kind of deal with eschatology. But for the sake of tonight, we're going to be dealing with the study of last thing. And so one of those things is the millennium. And so we're reading in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20 says this, then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss in a great chain in his hands, and he laid hold of the dragon, their serpent old, who is a devil and Satan, and bound to him for a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut it, and set it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed.

After these things, he must be released for a short time. Then I saw thrones, and they that sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded, because of their testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image.

And I received a mark on their forehead or on their hand, and they came to life in the reign of Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who is a part of the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they'll be priests of God and of Christ, and reign with him for a thousand years.

I guess I kind of stopped there. If somebody else wants to kind of like read verses 7 through 15, it's going to be dealing with like, you know, the other part of it. But let's stop right there for right now, and kind of dialogue with this.

If you guys don't know, I have all three positions kind of held here. Mr. Jeremiah, he'd be representing free meal. Mr. Crescent, he'd be representing our meal. And Mr. Zach, we rest in post meal. Sorry.

So what is the millennium? Can somebody kind of, I guess, give us a broad or I guess a short definition of what the millennium is, kind of what we're dealing.

With here? Sure, I'll chime in. Historically, the millennial reign is referred to as the thousand years of Christ's return. When he returns, in some fashion, we're referring to the millennial reign. The question we're talking about, is this more of a figurative millennial reign?

Or is it more literal? I think that's kind of, we'll see it in one of two lines. Is this more talking about a past inaugural beginning point? Or is this something that's going to be future tense? We're really talking about, is it past future, or figurative, or more literal?

What do y 'all.

Think about that understanding? Yeah, I think that's fair. I see it very well as that. I would also categorize it as a period where the Great Commission goes forth and is accomplished. Obviously, that's going to come with my understanding of the nature of the reign, with it being something that's already inaugurated and carrying out throughout the church history here, as opposed to your position with it being future.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you, brothers, man. I'll say it the same way, man, that this reign is a thousand years millennial. This reign, we know, is a reign that has been disputed so many different angles and everything.

Is it literal? Or is it symbolic? But we know it is referring to this thousand years. And I think we can go in a little bit more detail tonight, where our position is at, how we want to see the text and things of that nature.

But I agree with you, brothers.

Now, with excellent definitions like you guys have given, I guess we'll start with the premial view. You guys have all defined the millennium, but what is premial? How does one who interprets the premial view Revelation chapter 20?

So I've tried to really understand this from multiple angles. And KJ, you and I have talked about how there's even differences within the premillennial camp. So I can only speak for what's been really convincing for me.

And one of the things that's really persuasive is in Revelation 1 verse 19, is it seems like John is receiving this vision about what is to come. So it's almost like we received a bullet point outline of how the book of Revelation is going to unfold like a story.

And the reason why that's persuasive to me is that would entail a chronological flow, things after one event, there's going to be another event, and that triggers another event, and so on. And so that verse says, Jesus in this vision to John is saying, right, therefore, the things which you have seen, so I note past tense, those things that are present tense and those things that will take place after this.

And so what's really persuasive to me as being a premillennial view is that I see, once you see kind of Revelation 4, is at that point, I see a lot of this being future tense given the chronology of the book of Revelation.

So that's probably something we will talk about is how we interpret Revelation more cyclical. Is it talking about cycles of the same event and things in the early church, or is it more unfolding in a chronological story-like fashion?

So with that being said, I would say my position, and this is another thing, I'm a learner at heart. I cannot wait to hear from Preston and from Zach, and I want to better understand all these orthodox positions of eschatology.

I'm learning, and I guarantee you I will change my mind over time in these things because we unite together on the essentials. Jesus is coming back. We're going to rule and reign with him, and we will have new bodies fit for eternity.

So at this point in time, I lean towards this premillennial. I think we are existing and living in a time pre-before the millennial kingdom where Jesus comes and sets up.

Initially his kingdom here on earth. I'd like to add real quick, I'll be representing the historic premillennial with Mr. Jermiah, but just I guess to add to like kind of the premillennial view, now there is kind of how Jermiah said there's some differences within this, I guess, position.

You have what's known as dispensational premillennial. You have historic premillennial, and I lean more towards like the side of historic premillennial. Preston knows this, but I lean a little bit kind of close to the omni-mill, then kind of like dispensational premillennial and post-mill.

I am kind of, I guess, pessimistic in how I view like things, I guess, as they unfold before Christ returns, but what me and Preston kind of similar is that we both kind of view the nature of the book of Revelation as symbolic.

Now, kind of how Jermiah just said, we have a, I guess, an outline of things that's, you know, already happened, things that were going to happen in his day, and then things will happen in the future.

Now, there's a word that we use in theology known as a recapitulation. You guys know with the gospels telling the same story, but giving you guys different vantage points. Well, I believe John, throughout these future events, he's telling us the same story, but from different vantage points, but they're all symbolically doing so, but as there's, I guess, symbolism is describing literal events that will take place in the future.

He's telling the same story over and over and over, but from different vantage points, and so I guess another thing, too, is you guys in the millennium is a thousand years we're talking about here, and so when we say pre-meal, we're saying that Christ is going to return or pre or before the millennium and set up his millennium kingdom here on earth, and that's kind of what me and Jermiah would say, that we, all the believers will reign here on earth with Christ.

Now, the historic pre-meal position would say that Christ would kind of be vindicating his people, and so you guys know all throughout generations, you know, past, even currently, all those Christians who have been martyred, all those Christians who have shed tears, in a sense, in this thousand-year period of literal reign here on earth, Christ will be kind of balancing out all those negative things that happened to all these people over the time period, so that's kind of historic position.

Now, Mr. Zach, you are the post-meal position. What is the post-meal, and how do you interpret the book of Revelation? I love what Jeremiah said about.

Being a learner, because I'm right there with him. I'm excited to hear what all you brothers are going to say, and just explaining that view. As far as the post-meal understanding goes, the Puritans and those of old understood it to be a future, literal thousand years, what we know as a golden age, where the gospel and the carrying out of the Great Commission has kind of had such a great effect that it affects not only things spiritual, but it affects also things physical, and our day, and my understanding of the millennium is that it is a symbolic representation of what we know here as this church age, but the gospel is gradually conquering, gradually going forth, and will have such a great effect that God's kingdom is being increased, and you have to ask the question, well, how can you take it the thousand years symbolically, and I think the scripture gives us warrant to do so.

It says that a day to the Lord is a thousand years, better is one day in your court than a thousand elsewhere. The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills, so it's my understanding that Jesus Christ, at his ascension, goes to the Father on a cloud, and that's how we see him go in Acts 1, and this references straight back to Daniel chapter 7, 13, and 14, where it says, I, Daniel, when I saw the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days on a cloud, to him was given dominion, kingdom, and power, and then he says that all nations, languages, and peoples should serve him, and that's the exact same language that we see in Matthew 28, when Jesus Christ gave the commission, so it's my understanding that when the Spirit came at Pentecost, that this new age has come in to be, and then there's a 40-year overlap between 30 and the year 70, which is 30 is when Jesus dies, and I believe that's the year of Pentecost, and then Jerusalem, the temple that was still standing for 40 years, is destroyed, so we've got like a relay of this old Jerusalem and now the new Jerusalem, and the new Jerusalem being the church is left vindicated as God's people and God's messengers, and now has will go forth to preach this gospel and to conquer, and a lot of people will give the inclination to say, Zach, well, I don't see that things are getting better.

Well, Jesus said that the kingdom would be like leaven, and you don't put bread in the oven and it rises instantly. You put bread in the oven and the yeast gradually goes. It gradually rises, and I believe that's what will happen over time.

If you looked at the stock market in one day spans, then you may not see much of a change, but if you zoom out to five years, I think that you have a case to make this millennium, that it's gradually going forth over time, and one last thing, in Daniel chapter 2, we're given the kingdoms, and we know that Nebuchadnezzar had the dream, and it was Babylon, then Medo-Persia, then Alexander the Great in Greece, then the fourth kingdom was Rome, and it said that there was a stone that came in and struck that statue on the foot being Rome, and that kingdom started out as a stone, but it grew to be a great mountain, and I believe that that's the kingdom of God, and gradually over time, the preaching of the gospel will conquer the world.

All right, and Mr. Kristin.

Thomas, how does someone who holds the position of Amil be the book of Revelation chapter 20?

Man, just hearing from these brothers, can I be both? Can I be an Amil, post-meal, and pre-discordant, pre-meal? Man, that was just like the brothers said, man, I'm learning and learning as I go, man, and so, man, I agree a lot with what you guys just mentioned there, and so, but KJ said something a second ago, said something about, you know, he sees the book as symbolic, and a lot of times, people view, you say, the Amil position as, you know, they see this thousand years as symbolic, you know, and not a literal, but I would say that, you know, the thousand years, yes, we use symbolic language, but we are talking about something that actually is literal.

These, we believe the Bible is a literal book, you know, that these things will happen, and so, but we also see that, you know, within the, even the word, you know, Revelation that we use, get the word out to pop the literature, we're building up these hidden things, so it's these hidden things that's going to be revealed, that point to something actual, literal, but the word Amil, I think it comes from Latin, where I mean, you know, no millennial, which I don't too much care for the name Amil, like no millennial, because I think it is a millennium, it is a thousand years, the scripture tells us several times, you should see it right there in Revelation 20, that it is a thousand years, and so, for this thousand years that is referred to, I would say it's a, it's a multitude of years, a lot of years, just like we see throughout the book, it's like, say, it's a popular literature book that has a lot of symbolism throughout the book.

I think Peter Gentry mentions, what, seven, seven seals, seven trumpets, talking about seven spirits, you even see seven major sections in this book, and so, it's a lot of symbols in there, in the book, and so we, each, I mean, all these different symbols, there's so many things, we're going to be learning about this book for eternity, for the rest of life, the rest of our lives, but the book is, like I say, is, I would see it as a more, say, Amil, but let me back up some, I think it's been like four or five different ways to interpret, interpretation, I think it's, I think Keiji, you might have missed a little bit of it, a preterist view, I think a futuristic view, historist view, and a, I think, idolistic, yeah, did I say it right?

Yeah, idealist, okay, and it's a, more of an electic, I think, type of view, and so, I normally have paled to this more of idolistic view is, in the sense of this, this book is representing nothing but symbol, like a lot of symbolic interpretation, representation, and what does it point to is something that is happening, not actually pointing to, like, something that was happening right then, but like, like, like, right there at a particular moment, for example, a preterist would say, like, during the time of John, that a lot of these things already took place, like, in the first century, and so, idolistic view kind of sees it more of, like, a lot of these things that happened in the first century and third century, all these things have been symbolic to spiritual warfare that's been taking place throughout history, and then a futurist view is that, hey, none of this stuff has happened, you know, a lot of it's going to happen at the end, when all these things start, you know, unveiling themselves to us, and a historic view, I'm not sure, a historic view, when actually, where they started in history to calculate, you know, all these things took place, but to be honest with you, man, I see a lot of things I can take from all of them, I see a blender here, I think you throw a lot of these things in here, I think, even in the preterist view, I think we could take a lot about things that did take place in the first century, but I wouldn't limit, you know, the entire book to the first century, that everything took place, but I think the first century, actually, I see this type of two-fold things happening, that's going to point to something happening in the end, that there's something that happened in the first century, and so, but also, I see history, the benefit of history, and I also see the individual, I mean, the benefit of, also, the idolistic sin of the symbols, so I kind of see more of a blended type of view with all these different interpretations that we kind of can pick from, and things of that, but let me get back to Amir real quick, you know, I get a little long-winded, real quick, Amir, I would say this, is that this thousand-year reign that Christ was actually, and the brother just mentioned right there, we hear Christ at his crucifixion, and after he's he raised from the grave, and he sits at the right hand of his father, so we see Christ is reigning right now, and all his enemies put up under his feet, he's reigning right now, and by him reigning right now, his church is reigning with him right now, and as we're reigning with him, here, you know, spiritually, as we're reigning with him, we still suffer, you know, even though we reign with Christ, suffering is still around us, so I don't see things are, you know, in a sense of physically it's getting better, I think physically things are getting worse, but spiritually, things are, Christ, it's getting better, because Christ now, kingdom is growing, unbelievers are coming to Christ, so Christ is putting his enemies under his feet, after every soul come to Christ, it's just another marker of Christ's victorious work that's happening right now, so I would say Christ is this Amir, this millennial reign is happening right now, and Christ is reigning right now,.

While his enemies are under his feet. Wonderful explanation, man, you guys are all hinting at it, again, me and Jeremiah are kind of on the same team, so I'm just going to assume this is kind of what you guys will always say, Christ just said that he interprets the book of Revelation more in an idolistic sense,.

Mr. Zach, how would you interpret like the entire book of Revelation?

So I would take what I, I'm interested to see if we all agree with this, that full preterism is dangerous, I call it heresy too, okay, so I definitely take passages such as the first Thessalonians 4, what's traditionally known as the rapid passage, and first Corinthians 15, its future, but the majority of Revelation, especially the first 19, 20 chapters, I'm taking to be relevant to the first century, so when we get to Revelation chapter 21 and 22, I see that it's symbolically describing the church, and the reason I would do this is, well, I mean, you take the very first verse in the book of Revelation, it says things that must shortly take place, verse 3 says the time is near at hand, all through this we see things that are going to happen, in Revelation chapter 1 and verse 7, you see verses that talk about they're going to see Jesus coming, even them who pierced him, and this echoes right back into Matthew 24 with what Jesus said, that all of these things are going to take place in that generation, so when I think there's different ways to talk about the coming, I think he came in judgment on Jerusalem, so the Jews use Rome to kill Jesus, and then Jesus uses Rome to judge the Jews, so I see the book of Revelation in the preterist sense for what's known as the first 19, 20 chapters, and then I would take the historicist view on chapters 21 and 22, that the church began and now is being carried out through history.

All right, so and then Mr. Jeremiah, I'm sure like me, you're probably in agreement, would you view, so I'm sure all of us, let's all say this, so chapters 1 through 3, we know that those are like actual literal things that actually took place, as far as those seven letters that John wrote to, those are actual literal things that happened in the past, but what we did for it, I guess is how we started to view chapters 4, I guess, slash 5 to the end of the book, that's kind of what gets the disagreement started, but Crescent, you said that you're more idolistic, and Mr. Zach, you're saying that you're kind of like partial preterist, and then Jeremiah, would you be futuristic?

I would say.

Right there, idolistic, elected, you know, in there, you know, between in there, you know, kind of.

Jeremiah, you're futuristic. I'm futuristic, but this is where I want to say, even though I have bent towards a more literal and chronological view of the book of Revelation, I'm definitely sensitive to symbolism, because these are seven historic churches in Asia Minor, but I see these as being seven different categories of churches.

They represent what church, what type of churches exist even today, and so to me, I think that carries a symbolic look of what the church of Philadelphia, the church that loves the bride and the promises for them, and then you see other churches that fall away, what apostate churches look like, so even though that I would probably hold to a stronger literal view, I definitely want to be sensitive to the symbolism, because like Crescent said, this is apocalyptic literature, so I don't want to be blinded to a wooden interpretation of this book.

I just think the overall arching thing I see is more of a chronological flow.

Rather than a cyclical flow. Okay, so we're definitely in agreement on everything you just said, so now I guess it's going to lead us to this part right here, because you all guys have hinted at it, but how do we view the kingdom itself?

So I guess we'll start, I guess since Primo started first, me and you will tackle this, Mr. Jeremiah, but how does people who hold to the premium position view the kingdom of God and the millennium, and why?

So there's so many passages in the New Testament, and I think alluded to in the Old Testament, talk about the kingdom of God. That is a wide domain of what that word can be used, and so what I want to say is I agree heavily with the All-Men Postman view that something radical happened at Jesus' first coming and at his death and resurrection, so when I read in the Gospels, I believe it's in Matthew chapter 12, where Jesus says when he's talking about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and the house divided cannot stand, he makes a staggering statement, but if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you, so I think Jesus embodies the kingdom of God.

This is why he is referred to as the groom. Now is not the time of weeping, because I'm here in your midst, so in a very real sense, Jesus represents the kingdom of God on earth, and so I believe in some sense that the kingdom was inaugurated also at his resurrection, but here's where I believe we begin to diverge.

We all believe in it already, but not yet since the kingdom, and so we're probably going to apply this a little bit differently, but when I see that Jesus ascends to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father, I believe he is ruling and reigning here on earth spiritually by means of the Holy Spirit and dwelling believers, and it's the church, and it's gospel going forth, and Jesus is sovereign.

He is the sovereign God, so he's always in one sense been ruling and reigning Old Testament, New Testament, but I would see the kingdom already being a spiritual kingdom, and then what is pre, and what I would still be waiting for in a future sense is Jesus returning in a bodily sense to set up his kingdom here on earth, and so I don't want to negate the fact that Jesus, when he was here on earth, that was an aspect of the kingdom.

He inaugurated in some fashion that spiritual kingdom. I just believe the millennial view encompasses more a convergence of the spiritual kingdom with that bodily return of Christ as well. I got tears in my eyes, man.

I got nothing to say. He said everything I would say. When Christ came, he set up the spiritual kingdom, and what Jeremiah said, and then when we get to Revelation 20, this thousand-year reign here on earth, like I said, there is some division in the pre-meal camp.

Some interpret it to be a long period of time, and then I myself interpret it to be a literal number. This literal number.

Represents, and Jeremiah, you got something too? Yeah, so I was also wanting to read a key verse from where I'm coming from. So when Paul speaks in his Pauline writings, you got to think he is a Christian in a sense speaking to Christians in this spiritual age.

There's always been one people of God, but he says something interesting in Romans chapter 14. I believe it's in verse 17. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, which I would say is what we're experiencing now in our life here on earth, and he says, but is of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

So this kind of gives me a clue to it. It's the Holy Spirit that is indwelling believers, and so we're experiencing this kingdom already, but what is yet to come is that physical reign of glory that Jesus will set up.

So I just wanted to say that's a crucial verse for where.

I'm coming from. I think historic premiere guy, his name is George Adam Ladd. He has a whole book about the kingdom of God. He talks about too, like everything Jeremiah said, this spiritual kingdom is here right now.

If you guys know in the Lord's Prayer, I hope everybody's praying the Lord's Prayer, but if you guys know the Lord's Prayer, it's a prayer, you know, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

And so in certain aspects, like in order to have a kingdom, you have to have a king, right? And so this king who is ruling spiritually, once he puts all enemies under his feet, he will then come and embody that kingdom here on earth.

That's essentially what me and Jeremiah kind of saying, but Mr. Zach, you're up next, man, because you're the postal position.

So in 2 Samuel, and I believe it's seven, it talks about, in 2 Samuel 7, I believe it, it talks about that this future kingdom, and it says that David is going to be dead while Christ sits on the Davidic throne.

Well, if this happens in a future millennium, then David is going to be alive. But right now, David is dead. And right now, Jesus Christ is seated, what I believe, on David's throne. And if you take passages such as Habakkuk 2 .14, where it talks about that the world will be, the earth will be as full as the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Or if you take passages that say the similar thing in Isaiah 11, then I think it leads us to believe something that also includes something physical and not just spiritual. In John 18, verse 36, Jesus says, my kingdom is not of this world.

If it were, my servants would fight. And I think playing on what Jeremiah was talking about, I take that to be, this is not going to be conquered that something is physically conquered, but that doesn't mean it's not going to have a physical aspect.

So I believe that the kingdom is something that's now, and that will be achieved and will have an end and a consummation and a conquering, but it's going to be through the preaching of the gospel. If there was a verse that Jesus, Peter, the apostle Paul, and it's the most quoted verse in the New Testament, it's God's favorite Bible verse, and King David also mentioned it, it's Psalm 1101.

And it says that the Lord said to my Lord, or the Father said to my son, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. I believe that Jesus Christ is going to sit there until all of his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.

And that could be, you know, abortion or whatever those enemies are. That's not to say that every single person will be saved, but also playing along with that in Psalm 2, it says that at his ascension that he will receive the nations as his inheritance if he asks for it.

And I don't believe that Jesus Christ forgot to ask for the nations as an inheritance. I believe there is, and I believe.

He rules them now. That's a wonderful explanation, man. Okay, and Mr. Zach, I had a quick question, I guess, for somebody that's kind of like lost, I guess, about the post-meal position. How does like this kingdom, because we always say that Christ right now is right here on earth, so there's some sort of spiritual aspect about this kingdom, but how does the kingdom kind of unfold for the.

Post-meal position? So alongside of the spiritual influence, if you talk to 10 post-millennials, you may wind up with 10 interpretations of theonomy, but when God, in the book of Genesis, God gave Adam dominion over the earth.

And I believe that if Jesus Christ truly reversed the curse, then there's going to be an aspect of God's law that's still going to pertain. If we look today at societies that last, you look at a godless society and whatever it's built on, it don't last.

So it's my understanding that as we go forth and preach the gospel, that God's law is going to infiltrate every area of life. And to what extent that's going to take over, you know, I don't know that anybody would say 100 for sure, but there are passages that I believe all would put in the eternal state and that pre-meal would put in the literal thousand-year future millennium, like in Isaiah 65, that I would place in this life, in this world, that's going to happen.

And it's going to be, you know, that there's going to be not complete peace, but if we're the new Jerusalem, Jerusalem is the city of peace. Jesus Christ is the prince of peace. Well, the city of peace will bring the true peace to the earth.

And I think that's the only way that the earth would be able to survive is because of God's law. I mean, you think about what happened when Noah, there's only eight people that get on the boat and because there was no law, there was wickedness everywhere.

So the only way that God could sustain the world is if he gave man law, and it was his law, the true righteous law that we know to live by. So as far as the dominion and the theonomy at the end and what's known as this golden age, which I don't think just drops out of heaven, I think it's gradual and continual.

Man, you could come across so many different things, but I just think we're gradually moving towards, if we take a step back and look at history, then we're gradually moving towards through the preaching of the gospel.

This is not something political from the top down. This is built from the ground up. Jesus Christ, the cornerstone, laid the 12 apostles as the foundation, and it's being built from the ground up, and the kingdom slowly takes over the world through the preaching of the gospel, but affects all physical areas.

Okay, that's a good explanation, man. Thank you, man, for the explanation. Last but not least, Creston Thomas, how would you interpret the kingdom of God? I know you kind of mentioned earlier that we are currently now living in the millennium, but how would you kind of interpret it?

Yeah, and I always agree again with Jeremiah, the already but not yet, you know, the already but not yet, you know, kingdom that, you know, Christ, even when he was with his disciples, I think it was Matthew 6, 33, but it's also about, you know, but seek ye the first, the kingdom of God.

I think what, Mark 1, 15, you know, Thomas field kingdom of the kingdom of God is at hand. I'm actually going to so many king, he's talking about this kingdom. So I believe that the kingdom of God was there, you know, and I think even Jesus, Matthew, again, Matthew chapter four, four, right after he, Jesus is tempted on the mountain with Satan and he comes down and he comes in and bring good news and bring good times to the kingdom of God.

I think it's right there too in Matthew four. So Jesus, when he comes and he is at his incarnation, he brings in this new kingdom, even at his coming, it's already, but not yet kingdom. But we would say that, I mean, I would see is that even though he comes and bring us already, but not yet kingdom, we know his eternal kingdom will come as the consummation of all things.

But we do see as well that a piece or pieces of some more of this kingdom at his, at the passion, you know, when he, you know, was put to death and when he was raised up, you know, was raised up. And, and I think Zach said this, you know, all authority, I think Zach said that I might've, I don't want to get my blood wrong.

So, but all authority is given to Christ. And we see this authority and Christ allow this, his authority to have dominion, this dominion, he gives it to his disciples to have dominion, authority. And it seemed like the same thing we saw in Genesis chapter one, chapter two, you know, with Adam and Eve, they was to have dominion to rule the earth.

But now, you know, they couldn't do it. But now when Jesus came, he reigned. And again, I think Zach said this, it was beautiful how he said this, you know, they couldn't reign, but now Jesus come, now Jesus comes in and take this kingdom.

And now Jesus reigns and by him reigning, those who are reconciled and united with him, they get to reign with him. And they are reigning with him, even right now, while Christ is sitting at the right hand of the throne of the father, that they are reigning right now with Christ while they're on earth spiritually.

I think Jeremiah mentioned that spiritually, they're reigning with Christ. And as they reign with him, they are a part of this kingdom, the spiritual kingdom. But the kingdom that we're truly waiting on is this physical kingdom that's going to match the spiritual kingdom when Christ comes back and get our new bodies and get everything new, made new.

That's when I would say that the true kingdom is actually going to, it's going to really, really, I guess, going to come into fruition. But I will say that it is a realized kingdom that Christ is reigning right now, but we are waiting on our bodies for us to reign with our physical body as well to see this total reign, this total kingdom inaugurated, you know, is fully come in and all of his power.

Now, just for clarity, because everything you just said, it kind of sounds like the pre-meal position, but I know we kind of differ on this, but for clarity, I guess, those, I guess, the realized part, the already, but not yet.