September 26, 2017 Show with Phil Johnson on “Tim Keller & the Pressure Against Christian Leaders in the Public Eye to Cave into the Leftist Agenda (Is There Only ONE WAY to GOD?)”

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 26th day of September 2017, and I'm delighted to have back on the program one of my favorite guests, one of my most frequently interviewed guests of all time,

Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You, the radio, TV, and literary ministry of John MacArthur, and today we are going to be continuing a discussion that we began some time ago on the theme,

Tim Keller and the pressure against Christian leaders in the public eye to cave into the leftist agenda, and today our focus is on an interview that Tim Keller had with Martin Bashir, the

British journalist, on the theme, Is There Only One Way to God?,

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson. Thank you,

Chris, good to be with you. And in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello everybody, it's good to be here again.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence when writing in, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

And I also have a caveat to once again state at the outset of the program that please confine your questions to the pressure against Christian leaders in the public eye to cave into the leftist agenda, because our guest

Phil Johnson does not consider himself to be an expert on the life and theology of Tim Keller.

So if you start asking specific questions about Tim Keller, he may not be able to answer them because of the fact that he is not an expert, nor does he profess to be, on Tim Keller's life and theology.

So keep it to the broader topic if you could, and things related to it.

And you might as well, it's hard to believe that anybody in my audience would be unfamiliar with Grace to You, but in the event that some of our new listeners, we seem to get new listeners contacting us every day, and the event that there are people unfamiliar with John MacArthur and Grace to You, I gotta just tell you something funny in regard to that.

A number of years ago, it wasn't that long ago, but I was at a Christian businessmen's fellowship, and I was telling the men there about my program

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and they were asking me, well who have you interviewed? And I'd say, well people like R .C.

Sproul and John MacArthur. Coach McCartney? No, John MacArthur. Coach McCartney?

No, I said John McCartney. This was during like the Promise Keepers craze, and Coach McCartney was a big name people were tossing around.

But so obviously there are people out there that, believe it or not, are not that familiar with John MacArthur.

So if you could explain to our listeners exactly what Grace to You is all about. Grace to You is the media ministry of John MacArthur.

He is the pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. It's a large church, it's been around for a long time.

John MacArthur has been there since 1969, so he's approaching his 50th anniversary as pastor of Grace Community Church.

Over the years he has preached verse by verse through the entire New Testament, and all of those sermons were recorded.

Every sermon he ever gave at Grace Church. And so what we do is make those available. You can download them freely over the internet.

We play them on the radio. And so it's more or less our role,

Grace to You, our role is to expand the outreach of John's teaching ministry by the use of mass media as much as we can.

And for those of you who want to look up more information about Grace to You, the website is gty .org.

Well, without further ado, I am, hold on a second, Reverend Buss Taylor has something to say. Well, before we get too far into the subject, and I think

I mentioned to you before, Phil, that, you know, I've got hundreds of John MacArthur tapes, because I used to be on the tape lending library, and I used to get a lot of the stuff that wasn't aired on the radio, and I thought that was some of the most interesting stuff.

But he had, I remember hearing John talk about once, somebody came up to him and showed him a cassette tape, and said, your messages are going to go around the world, or something to that effect.

Do you remember, are you aware of that incident? Yeah, yeah, in fact, there was just, just reminiscing about that this weekend with Pastor Jim Harris in Boise, Idaho.

He was one of the first people on staff at Grace Church back in the 60s, who helped to put

John MacArthur's messages on cassette tape. He may have been the person that showed John MacArthur his first cassette tape.

Jim was telling me that in the early days of the ministry, they actually published a brochure explaining what cassette tapes were, so that people would know how to use them.

Can you imagine that? So, you know, I didn't want to ask right up front, because, you know,

I don't know you personally. I wasn't gonna say, was that you, since you said he's been there 50 years or so?

Yeah, no, I've only been here since 1983, so we're coming up on my 35th anniversary.

Well, that's still quite a while. That's about the time I became familiar with John MacArthur. It was 84 when

I used to hear him on the radio. That's when I started listening. Right. Yeah. Okay, well now, without further ado,

I'm going to, I'm going to play the clip of an interview that Tim Keller conducted with Martin Bashir, the

British journalist with the BBC, and we'll have Phil respond to the contents of this interview after we're finished.

So, here we go. Here is Martin Bashir interviewing Tim Keller. Do you believe that there is only one

God, and that there is only one way to approach that God? If, yes, if, okay?

Yes, if. I'm speaking as a Christian here. If Jesus Christ is who he says he is, that is, if he is the

Son of God from heaven, if he is, if he really was bodily raised from the dead, and if he was our original creator,

I mean, if all that's true, that's what he says, then of course it'd have to be just one way to God, because our souls would need him, or they would shrivel eternally, just like your body needs food, or it would shrivel.

I mean, the fact is, my body needs food, or it will shrivel. That's not narrow -minded to say. That's just the way it is.

If Jesus is who he said he is, then our souls would have to get him in order to be eternally full and thrive, and if we don't get him, then we would eternally shrivel.

So, to say it seems so narrow to claim that there's only one way to God, to say that actually precludes the possibility that Jesus is who he says he is.

I mean, if he is who he says he is, then that's what we're, that's what we have to say. If he's not who he says he is, then of course it's narrow.

So, basically, you have to sit down, ask yourself the question about the facts of Jesus' life, and look at that, and not, not say,

I don't even want to look at Jesus, I don't even want to hear the claims of Christianity, because they seem so exclusive. So, where does that leave the millions of Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews?

Are they sadly and completely deluded? People who never heard about Jesus, or never really got a hearing about Jesus.

I'm not talking about them, because some of those people have heard about. I'm talking about the millions of Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews, who have heard about Jesus.

Where does your thesis leave them? Where they are right now, that means that if they, there's never any change, they don't get

Jesus. If he is who he said he is, then long -term, they don't have God. If, on the other hand, you know, all

I can always say about this is, God gives me, even as a minister with a scripture, a lot of information on a need -to -know basis.

And a need -to -know basis means, here's all I can tell you, unless you get Jesus Christ, who created you to start with, unless you are reunited with him sometime, there is no eternal future of thriving.

It just makes sense. Again, I'm trying to go back to this idea that, that if he is who he says he is, you've got to have him.

If, right now, a person doesn't have him, then he needs to, he or she needs to get him. If, if they, if they die and they've never, if they, if they die and they don't have

Jesus Christ, I don't know. In other words, I have a need -to -know basis. This is the only thing I know. You need

Jesus. I certainly know that God is wiser than me, more merciful than me, and I do know that when

I finally find out how God is dealing with every individual soul, I won't have any, I won't have any questions about it.

Okay, but if this is the only way to God, and if Christians are heading for a place called heaven, does that mean, therefore, by deduction, that millions of Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, all of whom hold their faith with enormous integrity, all of them are heading for hell?

There's a lot of people who were born in Indianapolis, Indiana, and they grew up in First Baptist Church there, who are also headed for a

Christless eternity. Every human being chooses an identity.

It's either chosen, it's either based on the grace of God, or it's basically based on your own performance and your own ability, and therefore on your own self.

And if a billion years from now, you've put your hope in the grace of God, you will be beautiful and happy.

If you, a billion years from now, you've put your, you base your identity on your own self and your own abilities and your own performance, you'll be miserable.

In fact, you can see it even now. Self -centered people are miserable even now, not a billion years from now. So, there are plenty of people who are raised

Christians. There's plenty of people who were raised in First Baptist Church, but in their hearts have not turned toward the grace of God.

People in other religions, unless they find Christ, I don't know any other way, but I also get information on a need -to -know basis.

If there's some, if there's some trapdoor or something like that, I haven't been told about it. But I also don't know,

I guess I want to know this. I want to know when a person says, I need to know everything about how

God is going to deal with, in all eternity, with all individuals before I can bite down on Christianity.

I feel that you actually are maybe projecting your American, democratic, individualistic understanding of, you really want a president or a governor or a mayor.

You don't really want a king. And I can understand that, because human kings, human beings, are flawed, and therefore monarchy was not a very good approach to things.

But if you have a perfect God, perfect King, comes and suffers in Jesus Christ, then at this, at a certain point,

I trust him. How is your position fair and rational? Well, look.

How is that just? I actually don't know that people in other centuries or other cultures were nearly as bothered about this as people in this room.

And you're doing a pretty good job of articulating how they, how nervous they, upset they feel about this. But this idea that everybody needs to have an equal chance is not something that most people have felt was self -evident.

I mean, just because everybody you know feels that way doesn't mean, and that your culture feels that way, doesn't mean you can now come to the

Bible and Christian teaching and say, because we Western individualistic people don't like this part of biblical revelation, it can't be true.

The fact is, in the Middle East, where people are not nearly as bothered by this idea that some religions are right and some religions are wrong, that's not their problem with Christianity at all.

For more information about the Veritas Forum, including additional recordings and a calendar of upcoming events, please visit our website at veritas .org.

Well, that was the interview that Martin Bashir released to the segment that was on that particular

YouTube clip of Martin Bashir and Tim Keller.

And I'd like to start off, Phil, with you commenting on what you liked about what

Tim Keller said, if anything, and then we'll move on to criticisms. I wish

I'd known you were going to ask me that, because honestly, I didn't like this interview at all. I didn't either.

I just thought that we might be charitable and have something of virtue involved in it.

He had tried to be charitable. I think at least he hinted in there that, you know, your works, your good works, are not going to save you and all of that.

But I think the negatives so outweigh the positives on this interview that it's pretty hard for me to say anything positive about it.

The only thing that I could find redeemable about the entire interview was his saying that the the idea of fairness might not have been such an issue centuries ago.

It might be more of a factor in modern society, especially in societies where there is a

Democratic Republic or something. But other than that, it was pretty horrible.

Yeah, well, that's true. I mean, what you just pointed out, what he said, is true, but it didn't answer the question he was asked.

And that was my main complaint throughout this whole interview. He didn't answer any of the questions he was asked.

He was asked very pointed, direct questions, and he sidestepped every one of them.

And that's not good apologetics. I know he's revered and respected by a lot of people who think that his approach to evangelism and apologetics is ingenious, because he avoids making people angry who the rest of us might make angry.

But when you're asked a pointed question, do you believe that there is only one God, there really is only one appropriate answer to that question.

And he didn't give it. It isn't that he gave the wrong answer. It isn't that he denied anything that I know he believes.

I mean, because he's in the PCA, he has to affirm the Westminster Confession of Faith.

So I know he knows and believes the answers to these questions, but he just seems incapable of giving a direct response to a direct question.

Do you believe there's only one God? How can you not answer that question? Right, and first of all,

I think that he did deny something essential in regard to the

Scriptures by saying and implying that it is not knowable what happens to those who do not embrace

Christ. Yeah, no, you're right about that. He, yeah, I mean that's one of the criticisms

I would have maybe further into it. But just from that very first question,

I just cringed. Do you believe there is only one God? He's asking, he's being asked what he believes, and there ought to be a straightforward answer to that.

But he immediately goes into this hypothetical if, and he says, yes, if, okay, yes, if,

I'm speaking as a Christian here, if Christ is who he says he is, if he's a son of God, he uses the word if nine times before he ever completes a sentence.

It's all hypothetical. If Jesus is who he says he is, if, well, he's not asking for how an unbeliever should be thinking hypothetically.

He was asked, what do you, Tim Keller, believe? And I don't know why we can't get a straight answer to that question.

Yeah, well, that is, that is frankly one of my concerns about Tim Keller across the board.

It seems to me he always shies away from direct language, direct answers, you know, he likes to be coy and a little bit ambiguous, and this whole thing, every answer he gave here is ambiguous.

And if the disciples of the first century answered questions like that, the likelihood is that they would never have been martyred.

And in fact, if it were not ordained by God himself, Christ might not have been crucified if he answered questions with that kind of ambiguity.

Yeah, and the fact is, they did not answer questions like that, and because they didn't answer questions like that, and they answered every one of these questions, all

Tim Keller really needed to do to answer these questions was quote Scripture. He could have simply said, well, the

Bible says this, the Bible says that, and, you know, quoted what the Bible says about these questions.

But he didn't make a single reference to Scripture, as far as I noticed. Yeah, I know,

I didn't hear a single one myself. And this is obviously, this does not demonstrate the heart of a shepherd either, the heart of someone who is passionately concerned over the souls of those who hear his voice, of those who he is responsible over, those who have an eternity ahead of them, as we all do, and these are vital questions on which eternity is hinged.

And the fact that he even brings up the if element, it's as if he is demonstrating,

I'm not saying that he is a doubter, or somebody who is not fully convinced or convicted, of the truths of Jesus Christ and the claims that he made about himself, but he is giving the impression that he has a question mark over his own beliefs.

Wouldn't you say that? Yeah, well, I thought it was more than an impression.

I thought he pretty much said that he did not know the answer to the question whether there was another way to heaven or not.

He certainly left the possibility open that such a backdoor to heaven exists, and he just hasn't been told about it because he hasn't been told on a need -to -know basis.

That's just wrong. I mean, that is not at all in keeping with what

Scripture says about the exclusivity of Christ, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the

Father except through him. It seems that people like Dr.

Keller and Billy Graham and Joel Osteen want to make the gospel more palatable, more sweet and syrupy and acceptable to the lost than it was ever intended to be.

They take the fangs out of the gospel, because there's a bad side of the gospel that if you reject it, you will be damned for eternity.

There is no good news without bad news, and there's nothing amazing about grace if the flip side of the coin isn't something terrifying and horrible.

Just like when Billy Graham preached at the National Cathedral after 9 -11, when he specifically used a phrase that Tim Keller also used in this interview, but before Billy Graham was actually giving the elements of the gospel near the end of his message at the

National Cathedral after the attack on 9 -11, he said, I'm speaking to the

Christians now. This is for the Christians. That totally took any urgency or any kind of declaration that you need to repent whoever you are if you deny

Christ. It took that completely out of the equation when he said that this is for the

Christians, because everybody else was able to sit back, relax, and ignore the clarion call to repent and follow

Christ, because it wasn't for them. Jesus is the God for the

Christians, but nobody else. And when Tim Keller says, I'm speaking here as a Christian, don't you think that that, even though in and of itself it might be innocuous or benign, but don't you think that that really does take the fangs out of a message that deserves to have within it an element of fear?

Yeah, well there's no question that it does, but in fairness to Keller and Billy Graham and all, that is the spirit of our age.

I think the majority of evangelicals today would, if they were honest, and without any reluctancy,

I think most of them would tell you, yes, they prefer that kind of presentation about Christ to just a clear declaration about the exclusivity of the gospel.

That's how people today think the gospel is supposed to be given. And you know,

I honestly don't understand it, because Scripture is clear on these very points. I mean, again, the very first question, do you believe there is only one

God? How much in Scripture stresses that? I mean, that was the Shema in the Old Testament. Here, O Israel, the

Lord our God is one God. And it's also repeated several times in the New Testament that there is one

Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all. Scripture is so clear on that.

I don't know why it wouldn't be a simple answer just to say, yeah, this is what Scripture says. Now, don't you think that someone who is behaving like a true ambassador for Christ, a true shepherd, a true theologian, a true spokesman, if you will, for Jesus Christ, his word and his gospel, don't you think that would be a level of excitement to have an opportunity to sit before a global audience and proclaim the truths about Christ rather than seemingly be apologetic for them?

And I don't mean apologetic in the sense of apologetics, but as if you're embarrassed by the truths of the gospel that are uncomfortable to those who reject it.

Yeah, well that's why the Apostle Paul continually said things like, I'm not ashamed of the gospel.

I think this has been a tendency in every age to sort of be ashamed of the message, because it is a stumbling block and a rock of offense, and because people do mock and deride those who proclaim the gospel, clearly.

So, you know, there's a sense in which there's a strong temptation to be embarrassed by the message, because you get made fun of or you get a lot of pushback if you preach it plainly.

And to be fair, you know, if you're on national TV, that's an intimidating place to be.

I don't think this was a televised interview, but nevertheless, these days, you know, pretty much everything you say is going to live on the

Internet forever. And, you know, put in a situation like that, I admit, I would be somewhat fearful.

What if I mess up? What if I say the wrong thing? What if I touch off a firestorm of controversy because I've said it wrong, or I wasn't sufficiently clear, or whatever?

But what we have to... and that's legitimate, you know? I am prone to mistakes. I feel like Moses sometimes, that, look,

I'm slow of speech, and I stutter a little bit, and I'm prone to say the wrong thing, and I sometimes offend people needlessly, and I don't want to do any of that.

But we have to condition ourselves to think, look, when we're proclaiming the gospel, knowing that it is a stumbling stone, a rock of offense, the cross is an embarrassment to the world, if that's what upsets people, because we've proclaimed it clearly and accurately, then fine, you know?

Blessed are you when men persecute you, and speak evil of you, and mock and deride you.

We have to be willing to take that kind of... I don't know what you'd call it...

punishment from the world. Yeah, and speaking in human terms, I think

I would be more afraid of what my brothers in Christ would say after I was finished than I would about what the liberals would think, and the leftists, and so on.

Yeah, well, there's that, too. I admit to you, you know, John MacArthur was on Larry King numerous times in a decade just preceding this one, and I used to watch him and think, because he was so good at saying exactly the right thing at exactly the right time, in a way that I know

I wouldn't be able to do. I just can't think that quickly or put my words that clearly and correctly on the first attempt.

I'm a writer, not a speaker, and I need to think over something, usually, before I say it right.

And it wasn't like that with John MacArthur, but he would always answer those hard questions directly, and I think it was

Larry King who told him that he liked having John MacArthur on his broadcast, because he knew he'd get an honest answer from him.

Yes. He told him, most of the evangelicals I get on this program, I'll ask them the hard question. Larry King, who was

Jewish and married to a Mormon woman and all, he thought about these things a lot, and you knew if he had an evangelical on there, he would always ask this very question, what about Jews who don't believe in Christ?

Are they going to go to hell? You knew that question was going to come up, and if you were an evangelical and agreed to be interviewed by Larry King, you better have your answer to that question prepared, because he is going to ask it.

And it used to just amaze me how many evangelicals would fumble that question and answer it wrong, or try to sidestep it and never answer it at all.

And trust me, Larry King noticed, because he said so privately, and he appreciated the honesty of someone who answered an honest question honestly, even if he didn't agree with the answer.

And I think most people in the world are like that. And the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say.

You just sort of almost grabbed my thunder here, because I was going to ask you, and I'm still asking it, but turn the tables just a little bit.

Now you just said that you can't answer like John MacArthur, because you're a writer, not a speaker, and all that stuff. But to the best of your knowledge, how would

John MacArthur have answered that question in the similar situation? The first question?

If he were the one being interviewed, do you believe that there's only one God and only one way to Him?

How do you suppose John MacArthur would have answered that question? Well I bet you there would not have been the long pause of silence before he answered that.

He would have answered it right away, and he would have said, yes, I believe that, and I believe that because this is what

Scripture says. And then he would have quoted two or three verses that make the point. And he told me once that that was his approach on Larry King.

He tried not to ever just give his opinion. When asked his opinion, he would always say, well, this is what the

Bible says, and yes, I believe it. So you know what his opinion is, but his opinion is not the authority, it's the

Word of God that's the ultimate authority. And if you're in a public interview like this, people asking you those difficult questions in front of an audience that may or may not even know the

Gospel, much less believe it, that's the right way to answer it, straightforwardly, with the

Word of God. Because if you really want to reach anybody, it is the Word of God that is the...

it's the Gospel itself that's the power of God unto salvation. And the Word of God is sharper than any two -edged sword, and certainly more persuasive than anything

I could say. So you have to be prepared to, you know, quote the Scriptures and give a biblical answer to these questions.

And I think that's what Peter means when he says you need to be prepared to give an answer to those who ask a reason for the hope that's within you.

He's not saying cook up an answer out of your own personal philosophy, he's saying you need to know the

Word of God well enough that you can answer these questions with the Word of God. And we have to go to our first break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. And that's also the email address for you listening, who have a question for Phil Johnson regarding his response to Tim Keller, who was questioned by Martin Bashir on, is there only one way to God?

And if you have that question that you'd like to join us on the air with, go just send an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And Phil, we have already a number of listeners who have questions for you.

And we have, let's see, we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says,

I have heard people on Facebook posting not only regarding this interview, but your previous interview with Phil Johnson in regard to Tim Keller, that this information on these videos that have been made available to the public involving

Tim Keller in these interviews with the Veritas Forum took place a number of years ago.

Why are you bringing them up now? And shouldn't the PCA denomination be the only ones critiquing

Mr. Keller, since he is a PCA ordained minister? Well, that's kind of an odd thing to say.

First of all, wouldn't you say, Phil, it doesn't matter how old the interviews are, if the responses are the same?

I've heard of no recantation of these interviews from Mr. Keller. Have you? No, that's right.

And you see him referred to a lot. I've actually had people send me links to these

Veritas things and saying, this is how you should talk to unbelievers, rather than, you know, quoting

Scripture at them. So there are a lot of people who think, you know, this is a good model to follow when you're dealing with unsaved people.

And as for the question of, shouldn't the PCA be the only ones to critique this,

I definitely think the PCA ought to be... they probably have the greatest responsibility to critique them, but any person who is a shepherd responsible for sheep in his flock, if the sheep in the flock are being either led astray or confused by material like this, then it's the shepherd's responsibility to teach and correct and point out why this is not a good model to follow.

But obviously there is no Christian mandate that this be restricted to the scrutiny of the

PCA, when this is public information. I mean... The argument sounds like just an attempt to really squelch any criticism.

Right. And I agree with you. In fact, there's no mention of the

PCA at all, at least in the the clip made available of the interview.

No, but the listener's right. That is who Tim Keller is accountable to, and so the greater weight of responsibility does fall on their shoulders.

But if they're not going to do it, and as far as I know, they haven't as an official body. I think

Tim Keller's too influential in the PCA to be the target of any kind of public critique like that.

So, you know, it nevertheless needs to be critiqued. It's floating around there as teaching and an example of how to do apologetics, how to do evangelism, and that needs to be answered.

I mean, this is a significant problem in our generation. This isn't just something, you know, that somebody went digging for to try to find a far -outer or unusual example of what not to do in evangelism.

This, as I said, I think most evangelicals in this day and age are inclined to try to tone down the gospel as much as they can.

They think that's a good thing, when in fact that isn't what Scripture instructs us to do.

Amen, I agree with you. Well, thank you, Arnie in Perry County. And well, by the way, Phil, I have heard, though, to counterbalance the posts that Arnie has read,

I have heard from PCA ministers, after our first interview, responding to Tim Keller, who were very happy that we had that interview.

Yeah, you know, I think Tim Keller's influence, to be honest, is a little bit of a dividing line within the

PCA, and so it's kind of a sore spot there. I'm not PCA, so it doesn't, you know, there's no political reason why

I should have to refrain from giving an honest critique to something like this. I mean, honestly, this is not just, it's not like you're looking for an error.

That very first question could not be any more clear. Do you believe that there's only one God, and that there's only one way to approach that God?

It's as if Martin Beshear took 1st Timothy 2, verse 5, and turned it into a question, and asked, you know, is it true that there's one

God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus? I don't know of any

Christian who has even the most meager knowledge of Scripture who would not know the answer to that question.

Yes, that's what we believe. That's what Christianity has always taught. Amen. And we have a listener who's actually, not only has he been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but his parents have both been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm speaking of Jeremy Volo, or Volo is the correct pronunciation,

I believe. Jerry Volo, Jeremy, I'm sorry, Volo, who is a former

San Antonio Scorpion soccer player, professional soccer player, and now a pastor in Texas.

I know Jeremy. Oh, you do? He's in, yeah, he's in Laredo, Texas, which is right on the border of Mexico.

It's a dusty place to minister, so I appreciate Jeremy and what he's doing down there. Amen. And he's also married to one of the

Duggars, and he says, listening to, or should I say, listening in from Laredo, Texas, so grateful for you and Phil Johnson.

Specifically, Phil has been such a tremendous gift to Christ Church in being a bold voice clarifying the lines of doctrine which so many are attempting to blur in our watered -down evangelicalism today.

He is a man prepared to give an answer from God's Word, and thus, a trustworthy one. We are excited as a church to have

Phil down for a conference this November. He's going to preach on the five solas. Let's get in touch soon, brother.

I know you are busy, but I'd love to catch up with you. Okay, Jeremy, well, if you're still listening, I would definitely love to get you on the program, and we were already discussing having you and your wife on the program, and I'd love to do that.

And email me more details about your conference so I can get more specific in promoting it, the conference with Phil Johnson in November.

Thank you very much for contributing to the show today, Jeremy. And we have, let's see, we have here

Joe in Slovenia. Joe in Slovenia says, I'm dumbfounded by this topic in general.

It is very difficult for me to understand why a Christian leader would even entertain the idea of equivocating and caving to the pressure to the leftist agenda.

We have no examples of this type of behavior commended in Scripture. We have no examples of this type of behavior robustly and, wait,

I'm sorry, we have no examples of this type of behavior commended in the lives of heroes of the faith in church history.

If a leader in Christendom does not want to robustly and unashamedly declare the whole and unadulterated truth of God's revealed will in Scripture, why bother being a pastor, elder, or otherwise a leader in the church at all?

I just don't understand what could be the attraction of being so vapid while claiming to be a

Christian minister. Why not just excuse yourself and go sell life insurance? It is inappropriate to entertain the query about whether or not

Tim Keller is possibly a false professor. Is it, I'll repeat that, is it inappropriate to entertain the query about whether or not

Tim Keller is possibly a false professor? Okay, well, did you answer that? Yeah, I would say based on, and as you said,

I have not studied the life and complete ministry of Tim Keller, so I don't speak as someone who is infinitely familiar with all of his works.

I've read a bit of them, and you know, you asked me mainly to comment on this video that you played.

Based on that, I would say, no, I don't see any justification there for questioning the genuineness of his profession of faith.

It's not like he denied anything that's essential. Like you said, he came pretty close with the question of, is there a backdoor way to heaven?

But even that, listening to that, I think it was his intention to be ambiguous, to say, there's things

I don't know, to really avoid the question. He avoided questions that I don't think he should have avoided.

But he didn't deny any truths, at least I didn't hear him denying any truths that would make me think, this man can't possibly be a believer.

I have heard him preach the gospel, and like I said, he subscribes to the Westminster Confession, at least formally, so I don't doubt his belief in the gospel.

I just wish he'd be more clear in his proclamation of it. Well, I would like to reinsert, though,

I think he did deny a truth of the Scripture when he said, when he implied it is unknowable what happens to those who reject

Christ. Yeah, no, like I said, I agree with that. I just don't think that's... I don't think he did...

again, that was ambiguous enough that... I don't see that as a denial of some cardinal doctrine of Christianity, more that he sort of purposely made murky something the

Scriptures seems to me to be clear on. You'd want to question him further and say, what did you mean by this?

I don't think on the basis of what he said on that video alone, it would be fair to judge him as an unbeliever.

It certainly would be fair to question him further about, how firm is your conviction in the gospel?

How ambiguous do you want to be? But I don't think, even though I think the way you titled this broadcast talks about the leftist agenda, and the questioner did as well,

I think it's actually even bigger than that. I think what Tim Keller is trying to do is contextualize the gospel so that it fits not with a one -wing of the political spectrum, but so that it fits into this postmodern era where dogmatic truth claims of any kind are looked upon as something you shouldn't do.

So he's trying to contextualize the gospel in a way that he's not making, and he didn't, you notice in that entire interview, he does not make any definitive truth claims.

He makes everything ambiguous, and that's why he refused to answer those questions.

He's trying to avoid making any truth claims that would seem like he's saying, yes,

I know this to be true, or I believe this to be true, even. He just didn't want to come across in any way as dogmatic, and I think in a way that's worse than trying to promote a leftist agenda, because it subtly undermines the whole idea of truth, and particularly revealed truth, the revealed truth of Scripture.

Scripture is one divine truth claim, and if we can't say honestly, yes,

I believe this, I believe this to be true, and not just, well, imagine if, you know, and make everything hypothetical, then we're not faithfully representing what

Scripture itself says, because Scripture does not back away from making authoritative truth claims.

It speaks with authority, and when we proclaim the Word of God, we therefore have to convey that authority.

Well thank you, Joe, in Slovenia, and keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Slovenia and beyond.

And by the way, Jeremy Volo said that the conference featuring

Phil Johnson in Laredo, Texas will be held November 9th through the 12th, and if you want more information, you can send an email to gcclaredo, and that's

L -A -R -E -D as in David O, gcclaredo at gmail .com,

gcclaredo at gmail .com, or you can register at www .gcclaredo

.com forward slash services. That's gcclaredo .com

forward slash services. If you would like me to email you a

YouTube presentation promoting this conference, you can send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and I will forward you the

YouTube clip that promotes this conference with Phil Johnson that Jeremy Volo just sent to me.

Thank you very much, Jeremy, and we look forward to having fellowship with you again the next time you are in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

We're going to go to our midway break right now, and we have some more listeners still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but if you'd like to get in line and join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable because the question regards a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with more of Phil Johnson right after these messages. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

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And we are now back to our discussion with Phil Johnson in response to Tim Keller, and specifically to an interview that Martin Bashir had with Tim Keller, which was basically focused on the issue, is there only one way to God?

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

But before I return to the discussion, I have some important announcements to make in regard to upcoming events that some of our sponsors are conducting.

First of all, we have coming up in the, actually it's this weekend, we have the

Gospel of the Reformation, a 30th, 30th, a 500th anniversary of the

Gospel of the Reformation, which is being held at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. And that is being held on Friday, September 29th and Saturday, September 30th.

I intend to be there, God willing, with an Iron Sharpen's Iron Exhibitors booth. And it's free of charge.

And it features as a guest speaker, Dr. Tony Costa, who is on faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is their Professor of Apologetics and Islam. And if you'd like to register for this free event, go to wotchurch .com,

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wotchurch .com. Or you can call them at 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

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Grace Bible Fellowship Church. And if you want more details on his speaking engagement at this event, that's at the

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Or you can call them at 717 -652 -5229, 717 -652 -5229.

And then, coming up after that, in November, we have, from the 17th through the 18th, the

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, which is an event sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

That is going to be on the theme for Still Our Ancient Foe, referring to Satan from Martin Luther's classic hymn,

A Mighty Fortress. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

That's November 17th through the 18th at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. And if you'd like to register for that event, go to alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org, and then click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

And then, coming up in January, from the 17th through the 20th, on the 17th, it will be exclusively a

Spanish -speaking event, and from the 18th through the 20th, it will be exclusively an English -speaking event.

And I'm speaking of the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. And the theme is Knowing God, a

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. And speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

Charles Jeter, Tim Chalies, Josh Bias, James White, Tom Maskell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

And if I need to repeat it, our guest, Phil Johnson, is one of those speakers at that event.

And I am so delighted that I will be there, God willing, once again, with an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth.

Thanks to the folks at BatteryDepot .com, and thanks to the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible, and thanks to Josh Bias of Praise Mill Baptist Church, and those that are orchestrating the

G3 Conference. I'm looking forward to being there to greet many of you who are already in my audience, as I did last time, and also meet people that hopefully will promise to start listening to the program.

And it was just such a fun time interviewing folks like Phil, who

I've already had on the broadcast, but also interviewing people that I had never interviewed before. I'm very much looking forward to the

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. So I hope that you join me there as well.

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and put advertising in the subject line. And now at the request of my co -host

Reverend Buzz Taylor, I'm going to play, since it is brief enough to play again, I'm going to play the interview, at least the section of the interview with Martin Bashir, the

BBC journalist, the interview he had with Tim Keller, the pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, on the issue of, is there only one way to God?

And then we will follow up once again with comments and reflections by our guest

Phil Johnson. So here we are with the interview. Do you believe that there is only one

God, and that there is only one way to approach that God? If, yes if, okay?

Yes if. I'm speaking as a Christian here. If Jesus Christ is who he says he is, that is, if he is the son of God from heaven, if he is, if he really was bodily raised from the dead, and if he was our original creator,

I mean, if all that's true, that's what he says, then of course it'd have to be just one way to God, because our souls would need him, or they would shrivel eternally, just like your body needs food, or it would shrivel.

I mean, the fact is, my body needs food, or it will shrivel. That's not narrow -minded to say, that's just the way it is. If Jesus is who he said he is, then our souls would have to get him in order to be eternally full and thrive, and if we don't get him, then we would eternally shrivel.

So to say it seems so narrow to claim that there's only one way to God, to say that actually precludes the possibility that Jesus is who he says he is.

I mean, if he is who he says he is, then that's what we're, that's what we have to say. If he's not who he says he is, then of course it's narrow.

So basically, you have to sit down and ask yourself the question about the facts of Jesus' life, and look at that, and not say,

I don't even want to look at Jesus, I don't even want to hear the claims of Christianity, because they seem so exclusive. So where does that leave the millions of Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews?

Are they sadly and completely deluded? People who never heard about Jesus, or never really got a hearing about Jesus.

I'm not talking about them, because some of those people have heard about him. I'm talking about the millions of Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews who have heard about Jesus.

Where does your thesis leave them? Where they are right now, that means that if they, there's never any change, they don't get

Jesus. If he is who he said he is, then long term, they don't have God. If on the other hand, you know, all

I can always say about this is, God gives me, even as a minister with a scripture, a lot of information on a need -to -know basis.

And a need -to -know basis means, here's all I can tell you. Unless you get Jesus Christ, who created you to start with, unless you are reunited with him sometime, there is no eternal future of thriving.

And it just makes sense. Again, I'm trying to go back to this idea that if he is who he says he is, you've got to have him.

If right now, a person doesn't have him, then he or she needs to get him. If they die and they don't have

Jesus Christ, I don't know. In other words, I have a need -to -know basis. This is the only thing I know. You need

Jesus. I certainly know that God is wiser than me, more merciful than me.

And I do know that when I finally find out how God is dealing with every individual soul, I won't have any questions about it.

Okay, but if this is the only way to God, and if Christians are heading for a place called heaven, does that mean, therefore, by deduction, that millions of Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, all of whom hold their faith with enormous integrity, all of them are heading for hell?

There's a lot of people who are born in Indianapolis, Indiana, and they grew up in First Baptist Church there, who are also headed for a

Christless eternity. Every human being chooses an identity.

It's either chosen, it's either based on the grace of God, or it's basically based on your own performance and your own ability, and therefore on your own self.

And if a billion years from now you've put your hope in the grace of God, you will be beautiful and happy.

If you, a billion years from now, you've put your, you base your identity on your own self and your own abilities and your performance, you'll be miserable.

In fact, you can see it even now. Self -centered people are miserable even now, not a billion years from now. So, there are plenty of people who are raised

Christians. There's plenty of people who were raised in First Baptist Church, but in their hearts have not turned toward the grace of God.

People in other religions, unless they find Christ, I don't know any other way, but I also get information on a need -to -know basis.

If there's some trapdoor or something like that, I haven't been told about it. But I also don't know,

I guess I want to know this. I want to know, when a person says, I need to know everything about how

God is going to deal with, in all eternity, with all individuals before I can bite down on Christianity, I feel that you actually are maybe projecting your

American, democratic, individualistic understanding of, you really want a president, or a governor, or a mayor.

You don't really want a king. And I can understand that, because human kings, human beings are flawed, and therefore monarchy was not a very good approach to things.

But if you have a perfect God, perfect king, comes and suffers in Jesus Christ, then at this, at a certain point,

I trust him. How is your position fair and rational? Well, look.

How is that just? I actually don't know that people in other centuries, or other cultures, were nearly as bothered about this as people in this room.

And you're doing a pretty good job of articulating how nervous they, upset they feel about this. But this idea that everybody needs to have an equal chance is not something that most people have felt was self -evident.

Just because everybody you know feels that way doesn't mean, and that your culture feels that way, doesn't mean you can now come to the

Bible and Christian teaching and say, because we Western individualistic people don't like this part of biblical revelation, it can't be true.

The fact is, in the Middle East, where people are not nearly as bothered by this idea that some religions are right and some religions are wrong, that's not their problem with Christianity at all.

For more information about the Veritas Forum, including additional recordings and a calendar of upcoming events, please visit our website at veritas .org.

Well, Phil, there's a couple of things that we didn't address after the first hearing of that brief interview, or that segment of a longer interview.

First of all, I think it would have been more appropriate for Dr. Keller to say that many people from Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan are heading for hell rather than First Baptist Church of Indianapolis, Indiana, to be more, you know, fair about things in regard to...

Well, yeah, and it may be true about both places, but it still doesn't answer the question he was asked, which was about Muslim, Sikhs, and Jews, and he doesn't give an answer to that.

Not only that, when Martin Brashear asked him that question, did you notice that he called it, your thesis?

Your thesis, as if this is his personal theory about how things work.

Now, my understanding is Martin Brashear himself professes to be a believer, and so he has a

Christian background. He has some knowledge. I don't know how much of the way he was asking the questions was perhaps he was trying to provoke

Dr. Keller to be more straightforward, to give clear answers to these questions, but whatever.

In the end, he treats it like this is a thesis, and that's where Tim Keller sort of defaults to describing it as if, well, this is maybe my thesis, and I don't have all the information.

I've only been told on a need -to -know basis, and he doesn't ever ask, he doesn't ever answer the actual question, and there are numerous biblical verses that give a direct answer to that.

I mean, we always quote John 3, 16. Two verses later, Jesus says, whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does, whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he hasn't believed in the name of the only

Son of God. I mean, that's a clear statement in Scripture of the very truth that Tim Keller was trying to dance around and not say, and there are others.

John 5, 24, Jesus says, truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes, him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, and he makes faith there contingent on believing and knowing.

Or 1 John 5, 12, whoever has the Son has life. Whoever does not have the Son does not have life.

Scripture's very clear about this, that that is the dividing line between those who have life and those who don't.

Do they believe in Jesus? Have they obeyed Jesus? Have they actually put their faith in Christ?

And there just isn't any easy way to tiptoe around that truth in Scripture.

And when you're put in a national forum and asked these questions, you really ought to have clear answers.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. I was trying to take in a lot as I was listening to this, but he gave that big if that you mentioned earlier.

Did he actually get around to answering the question as to whether Jesus really was who,

I mean, if I said, if he is who he says he is, I would at least follow that up with, and he is who he says he is.

Right. He never said that in that interview. He never did say that. And the question even was simpler than that.

It was about, the question that was put to him was, what do you believe? Do you believe this? He never answered that.

Now, I'm certain if we put that question to him privately, he'd answer, yes,

I believe that. Why he won't say that in front of an audience of unsaved and potentially hostile people,

I don't know. But as one of you said earlier, that is not the apostolic approach to preaching the gospel.

Yeah. And these are the alternatives Tim Keller gave in regarding to belief in Jesus.

You will either believe in Jesus and be eternally full and thrive, or you'll shrivel, or you'll be happy or be miserable if you reject him.

And in the long term, if you reject him, you don't have God. Now, are those compelling reasons for somebody whose heart beats for fornication or adultery, who absolutely loves extramarital sex and every day, or as often as they can, are participating in that, people who are drunkards or drug addicts, people who are enjoying, of course, this is a temporary enjoyment, but people who are enjoying their sin so much, is it a compelling reason to repent of that and follow

Christ if the goal is to be eternally full and thriving instead of shrivel?

In fact, there are a lot of very overweight sinners out there that might want to shrivel a bit, but how do you respond to that?

Yeah, well, in fact, you don't even have to go that far. A lot of religious people who just don't have time for Christ would not be made, they would not be provoked to fear

God based on anything he said. In fact, I actually sort of wrote that phrase down because I think it's the lamest expression of hell, eternal punishment, that I've ever heard of.

He says, for those people, there is no eternal future of thriving. How far do you have to stretch language to avoid the notion of divine wrath?

No eternal future of thriving. You read that and you think, it just, there's nothing about that that provokes the awe and fear, legitimate fear of God that scripture says is the beginning of wisdom.

Amen. And let's see, we have some more listeners here that we will go to.

Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania says, regarding Tim Keller's approach as found in today's video that you're discussing, doesn't

Mr. Keller skirt very close to Matthew chapter 10 verse 33, but whosoever denies me before men,

I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. It seems as if that's exactly what he did in this video.

Well, I agree that he skirted very close. I don't think he overtly denied

Christ. It was interesting how he danced around that.

He answered or refused to answer those questions in a way that neither affirmed nor denied.

It was just hypothetical. If Jesus is who he says he is, and he never answers the question of what he believes, and I'd be hesitant to jump to the conclusion from that, that he doesn't believe

Jesus is who he says he is, of course I think he'd say, yeah, I believe Jesus is who he says he is.

My question then would be, why can't you say that in front of hostile unbelievers? Right.

What favor are you doing them by softening and candy coating everything?

You're actually, you're really demonstrating that you do not love them or care about them enough to let them know the bad news of their indifference or their rejection of Christ.

And it's like, would you speak this way to a beloved family member who was a drug addict or an alcoholic who was destroying their life and also destroying the lives of their spouses and children?

Would you speak to them in this kind of ambiguous way? Would you soft sell your message to them that they have to go to a rehab facility or do something to go cold turkey and get off of this substance that they are killing themselves with?

And you know, you wouldn't speak to them that way if you really loved them and really cared about them. Their feelings would be infinitely less important than their lives.

Am I right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, scripture says anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

When you're asked that question, you really have to say that. I don't understand the reason for trying to muddy the answer to that question.

I don't see that it does unbelievers any good at all. It may keep them from, you know, tripping over the stumbling block that is the gospel, but that's not a good thing.

Paul would, the apostle Paul, would never have treated that as a good thing. And in fact, he spent a great deal of space in first Corinthians explaining the

Corinthians that he refused to come to them with great words of human wisdom and philosophical answers and all of that.

He just came and his only goal was to declare the gospel. He preached Christ and him crucified.

And that's what's missing from all of these answers. There's no gospel here. And he's specifically being asked about the exclusivity of the gospel.

What an opportunity to give the gospel and it's just not there. Amen. And another thing that was odd in his answers, when he was referring to people in regard to their decision on whether or not to believe upon Christ or reject him, he was referring to billions of years from now or a billion years from now.

I didn't even understand why he included that in the statement. Do you know what

I'm speaking of? Yeah, I suppose. I think that was just his way of saying, look, eternity is a long time.

You have to look further into the future than where you're going to be next week. That didn't particularly offend me, though, you know, the way you ask your question there prompted another thing that stuck out to me.

He says at one point, every human being chooses an identity.

That just struck me as an odd thing for a Christian minister to say, especially a

Presbyterian, you know, Calvinist. Every human being chooses an identity.

That's exactly what the world thinks, you know. And in fact, if you want to choose, if you're a man who wants to choose to be a girl or a dog, you know, you're free to do that these days.

You choose your own identity. That isn't how Scripture describes the problem of human sin.

We are in bondage to sin, not free to choose, but in bondage to sin.

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. And we desperately need the grace of God.

Now, he goes on to mention grace, but he doesn't really explain what it is he's talking about there.

And I think for an unbeliever, that section of what he said would be just hopelessly confusing.

He says, basically, it's based on your own performance and your own ability, and therefore on your own self. And if a billion years from now, you put your hope in the grace of God, you're going to be beautiful and happy.

That just... Why not talk about biblical truths in biblical languages, in biblical language?

Use biblical terms to describe biblical truth. This idea of thriving, or being beautiful and happy, rather than heaven.

And, of course, the descriptions of hell being merely shrivel, miserable, and you don't have

God. Well, if you didn't want God on this earth, why is that any kind of compelling reason to have him in the afterlife?

Yeah, I thought the same thing. He said something at one point about, well, then they won't have

Christ. And I think to people who don't love Christ, there's no fear in that thread at all.

Right. In fact, they'll be, you know, probably be propelled into deeper sin, because I don't want

Christ. The mere thought of him is the only hang -up I have in enjoying my sin, you know?

Yeah. Well, you hear people say silly things like that. I don't care if I go to hell, because that's where all my friends will be.

That's a really foolish way to think, and yet you hear that all the time.

And you wouldn't expect to hear something that sort of provokes that kind of thinking from a

Christian minister. We're going to our final break right now. It'll be much briefer, and if anybody would like to get in line and ask a question to Phil Johnson before we run out of time, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with more of Phil Johnson.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and this is the last 25 minutes or so of our interview today with Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, the media ministry of Dr.

John MacArthur. We are responding to an interview that Martin Bashir conducted with Tim Keller on the question,

Is There Only One Way to God? If you'd like to join us on the air with your own question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And I would do so quickly because we are rapidly running out of time. And before I get to any more of our listener questions, just imagine he is speaking,

Phil, to Martin Bashir, who is from Pakistani descent,

Christians who lived in Pakistan, and who are very often risking their very lives being

Christian. And you're supposed to compel someone to leave the religion that is the only thing keeping them alive, that is preventing their execution.

And you're compelling them to convert to a religion or to repent and follow

Christ and claim him as your Lord, God, Savior, and King at the risk of being executed for the compelling goal of being eternally full and thrive and to be beautiful and to be happy.

That's really the only compelling argument that he's giving here. Yeah. Yeah, you know,

I've seen an interview Martin Bashir did with Rob Bell, in which he challenged him pretty strongly.

Look it up on YouTube, it's very interesting to watch, because as I said, Martin Bashir does profess to be a

Christian. And he challenged Rob Bell for things he was saying that weren't all that different from what

Tim Keller is saying here. I was sort of wishing Martin Bashir would press a little harder on Tim Keller and give him the same sort of words of challenge that he gave to Rob Bell.

Yeah. And we have Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina, who says,

I must say that the below statement from Phil is somewhat alarming to me, this is a quote from you, she has written,

Keller is a PCA pastor, so I know he believes the Westminster Confession. In light of that statement, would

Phil be kind enough to define a wolf in sheep's clothing? Also, if he could expound a bit on the passage of scripture below, and no wonder for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light, it is not surprising then that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness.

Well, she asks a good question, and she's right about that, actually. And I said earlier, I'm a writer, not a speaker,

I don't always, what comes out of my mouth isn't always what I would say with a little more time to prepare it.

What I meant to say, what I really meant by that statement is, I know he's PCA, so he formally subscribes to the

Westminster Confession. He has to profess to believe what's in the Westminster Confession in order to be a

PCA pastor. She's right, that doesn't mean, that's not proof that he's a believer.

There are wolves in sheep's clothing. It doesn't even prove that he really believes in the

Westminster Confession of faith, because there are lots of Episcopalians who have the 39 articles down on paper as their statement of faith, and they disagree with all...

I've often said it's best to judge people not by what they formally subscribe to, but by what they preach.

Right. And so in this case, I think there's a valid question to be raised, how strongly does he believe the

Westminster Confession? Because the Confession is very clear on the eternal status of those who don't know

Christ. So. Well, thank you, Tony. Keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Rock Hill, South Carolina, and beyond.

And we have Daniel from San Jose, California, who says, Hello, brothers. Though Tim Keller shows some considerable concerns, people can still benefit from his preaching and teaching.

When do we say, enough's enough regarding someone like him? When did Tim Keller start showing these signs of concern, and what was it that grabbed the attention of the discerning about him?

What are some key aspects that we can keep an eye out for in our own churches to prevent this left -leaning influence?

Thank you for your grace to you, Ministry. I look forward to next year's Shepherd Conference, Lord willing.

I'll see you there. That's Daniel in San Jose, California. All right. I'm looking forward to that conference as well.

I look forward to seeing you there. That was a lot of questions, but basically he's saying, I think, how far back does this go with Tim Keller?

What was the first thing that... Well, I'll go through his questions one by one. He says, let's see, when do we say enough's enough regarding someone like him?

Like, we draw the line where we continue to say, well, he's a sound preacher, but we just have some caveats regarding some things that he says.

Where do we go from that to saying, don't listen to this guy, he's dangerous? Yeah, I mean, there's a spectrum,

I think, rather than a line you cross and say, don't listen to this guy, or this guy's a believer and this guy's not.

There's a murky area there in between where it's okay to have concerns about somebody and refuse to recommend their material without judging them to be not a believer.

You understand? And I think somewhere in there is where I would put Tim Keller.

I'm not prepared to publicly declare that he's an apostate or anything like that, but I don't recommend his material and I haven't for a long time because of the very sort of deliberate ambiguity that you see in this interview.

The first time I ever, and this was another question he asked, when did you first notice this? It was actually years ago,

I think more than 10 years ago. I saw a video that was done, for some reason

I think it was at Berkeley, but it may have been somewhere else, where he had a group of secular college students asking questions, and the issue of homosexuality came up, and he began to explain why

Christians believe homosexuality is sinful. He wasn't in any way being personal or even admitting that this was where he stood, but one of the students got angry and I think may have gotten up and left the audience, and he apologized for having to tell them that homosexuality is a sin, and he changed the subject and withdrew from it.

I thought, why wouldn't, when such a clear question is asked, and there is a clear answer, why not give the clear answer?

It might make people angry, but if that's what Scripture teaches, it's not my fault if people get upset about it.

If all I'm doing is explaining what the Bible teaches and that's what the question was, then if somebody gets angry,

I may feel bad that they got angry, but I'm not going to apologize to them for what the Scripture says.

And it just seemed to me that Tim Keller was more concerned, at least in that moment, with what people thought about him and what people thought about how he was communicating than he was with the actual question that was on the table and giving a clear answer to it.

And that's what originally prompted my concerns, but pretty much every time I've seen

Tim Keller in that kind of environment, where he's being asked difficult questions by non -Christians or in an audience of non -Christians, you get the same sort of studied ambiguity, deliberate ambiguity, and that concerns me.

And he is asking basically for some helpful tips, some advice, some counsel to help churches be more aware of how to prevent this left -leaning influence from encroaching, you know, upon their own churches.

Yeah, churches in the first place, and Christians in the pew, need to be more concerned about, you know, drawing the lines between truth and error, and not bristle every time someone's teaching is critiqued, especially when it's so deliberately ambiguous.

When there's a clear question like, do you believe in one God, and you can't even give that a straight answer, that warrants criticism.

I'm sorry, I don't care who it is. If he's purposely ambiguous when asked a question like, is there one

God and one mediator between God and men, and he can't give a biblical answer or won't, then that warrants some fairly strong criticism, and I think words of warning, because someone who teaches like that is not giving you an example to follow, and you can't trust them to teach you any of the hard truths of Scripture.

Well, thank you, Daniel, and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in San Diego, California and beyond.

And don't you think that it is ironic that someone who claims to be

Reformed is using, in my opinion, a very Arminian tactic?

It's almost as if you can trick a person to come to believe in Christ in the same way that a frog is boiled alive in a kettle.

You know what I mean? You keep the discussion on a very low simmer, and then later on you can turn up the heat until they're eventually sucked into the religion of your choice.

And it's the same kind of approach that even a non -Calvinist Arminian of a much more conservative bent or fundamentalist bent could use.

Like, for instance, I've seen and heard fundamentalist preachers use very theatrical means to scare people about hell, as if that kind of a performance from a pulpit will scare a reprobate person into eternal life, if you follow what

I'm saying. It seems to be a very Arminian approach for somebody who's Reformed. Yeah, that's right.

And in fact, it isn't really all that different from how, say,

Rick Warren might answer those very same questions. Absolutely. Because Rick Warren isn't a member of a

Reformed denomination, doesn't really profess to be Reformed, although I think he told John Piper that he loves

John Calvin. You don't hear him say that very often, and he doesn't really make any pretense of being

Reformed. And so when Rick Warren says it, the Reformed world, of course, is going to argue back.

But for whatever reasons, Reformed Christians, and particularly some of my

Presbyterian friends, are far more reluctant to criticize one of their own.

And I suppose that's a natural tendency, but it's one we really ought to resist. Reformed Baptists, on the other hand, pounce very readily upon their own when they make public statements that they disagree with far too quickly.

You're right about that. I don't know why that is, but maybe that's why I'm more of a

Reformed Baptist than I would be a Presbyterian, but don't ask me to explain that phenomenon.

And, you know, as we said on the outside, you're no thoroughly knowledgeable expert on the person, work, and theology of Tim Keller, but this could be anybody, especially somebody that has a very large global loyal audience.

These are the kinds of things that remind us that we have to be very careful about turning our modern -day heroes into idols.

Yeah, that's right. In fact, honestly, I wish it were possible to critique this style without actually naming

Keller and dealing with him in a personal way, because it seems personal. I think that puts people's defenses up, and they think, well, there must be some other agenda, some personal...

I honestly don't have any personal dislike for Tim Keller as a person.

It's what he teaches and how he teaches that concerns me, and it concerns me deeply, because it goes across the board into all doctrines.

He's been a member of Biologos, this group that, frankly, seems to have as their agenda to disabuse evangelicals from any kind of belief in the literal facts of the book of Genesis, even to the point where a lot of them have denied belief in the historical

Adam, the historical person of Adam. They're so committed to the latest scientific theories of evolution and the age of the earth and all of that that they look with contempt on believers who take

Genesis at face value, even to the point of insisting that Adam must have been a true individual, a real historical person, as opposed to a fable or whatever.

And although I don't think, at least I've never heard Tim Keller deny the historicity of Adam, I don't know why he would lend his reputation and clout to an organization that has so zealously attacked the historicity of Adam.

It undermines the authority of Scripture. It undermines the confidence of believers in the truth of Scripture.

And it just bothers me that he seems drawn to those kinds of things, and it needs to be critiqued.

I wish it was possible to do it apart from his personality, but I know from experience that if you just keep a critique like that in theoretical terms, people don't get it.

You have to point to where it was said and what was done, and that always involves, or it frequently involves, the necessity of naming the person who taught that way.

Yeah, as it did, as the Apostle Paul found it necessary with Hymenaeus and Philetus.

And on many other occasions. The first hyper -preterists. That's right. And the Apostle John, the

Apostle of Love, singles out diatrophies. And so there are times when it's necessary to do that.

I learned that from experience years ago working with John MacArthur. When the

Gospel according to Jesus came out, it hit like a bombshell because he named the names of two or three people whom he disagreed with,

Charles Ryrie and other respected teachers, mostly from Dallas Seminary. This was not the first book

John MacArthur wrote on the lordship issue. One of his original books, his book on the beatitude that had been published several years before by Moody Press, took a similar stance on the same doctrine, but nobody really noticed because he didn't quote and refute specific people whom he disagreed with.

And so it was like the whole thing was just theoretical in the minds of readers. But when you bring it down to where you point out an example of bad teaching and play a videotape and say, look, this is bad teaching.

This is not the way you answer these questions. Then it becomes very clear. But you get a lot of pushback from people who think now you've gotten too personal.

And I just want to emphasize, it's not my intention to be personal. In fact, you were the one that picked the subject.

So right. And I still think it was a good subject.

And it is an important, it is an important subject. It's, it's something that's like one of the questions asked, why do with it that's been out there for so long?

Well, for that very reason, that's been out there for that long and floating around and try to find anybody who does any kind of analysis or critique of it on, on the internet, and you're going to come up mostly dry.

That is why I just recently discovered these videos people as this one listener brought up earlier that somebody was complaining that I'm talking about this now, when these interviews with Tim Keller took place years ago,

I didn't know about them years ago. I don't know why that is. But I just, I just heard about them within the last few months.

So that's why I had you do the first interview. And now we're doing the second on, on the I was utterly astonished that he was that bad in answering those vital questions.

I always had my doubts and apprehensions about Tim Keller going way back before he was famous.

Because in the 1990s, in the early 1990s might have been in the even in the late 1980s,

I can't remember. But a former member of his congregation, who is either a member or frequently attended the

Redeemer Presbyterian Church, left that congregation because Tim Keller refused to answer a question during a

Bible study. The question was, are homosexuals who are unrepentant going to hell and he refused to answer the question and this individual who later became a member of the church where I was a member

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville at that time. He showed me a photocopy of a multi page letter that he wrote to Tim Keller, pleading with him for an answer to the question because he said, if you cannot answer or will not answer this question,

I'm going to depart from Redeemer Presbyterian. And he never got a response to it, which to me to get in this this is before he was famous, where he could not realistically claim that he had thousands of letters in a stack that he couldn't get to.

But anyway, yeah, well, there are enough instances of that on the on the web as well.

You just do a search at YouTube for Tim Keller answering that question or questions like it and you'll find he he really is.

It's very hard for him to speak honestly about and openly about what scripture says about homosexuality.

He always wants to soften it or dance around it or refuse to answer it. And he does like that.

And it's odd that he insinuates that one of the worst sins, and I agree with him on this, that someone could be guilty of is to take credit for yourself or to yourself for earning in some way or for meriting your own salvation, viewing your own goodness as being meritorious for salvation.

And yet he adores some of the Catholic mystics and participates in the

Roman Catholic mystic meditation and so on. And also the open and unashamed, well,

I don't want to say adoration, but the high esteem with which he holds N .T. Wright and so on publicly.

Wouldn't you not say that N .T. Wright is a dangerous false teacher? Yeah, I would.

I would. I would say, I mean, there's an example where I think, despite his fame and acceptance among a lot of evangelicals,

N .T. Wright has so corrupted the doctrine of justification by faith and the principle of the imputation of righteousness to believers, which he denies.

I see that as a fatal compromise of the Gospel. I would regard him as someone who seems to have departed from the

Gospel as it is presented in Scripture. We have a question from B .B.

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And B .B. says, what is it about some conservative evangelical

Christians that so desperately want the approval of the liberal elite? I cannot figure it out for the life of me.

Do you have any thoughts on the subject? Yeah, I do. In fact, I've preached a whole message on it. And it isn't just the liberal elite.

There are different quarters of evangelicals who want different kinds of approval from the world.

It all boils down to the same thing. You've got the young tattooed guys who talk more about beer than they do about Christ who crave the world's approval for how cool they are.

You've got the academic types who desperately want secular academics to recognize their gravitas.

You've got people involved in politics who crave political influence and approval from the world on that level.

And it's just a gross temptation for evangelicals. And I think it's probably been true since the beginning of the

Church, because there's so much in Scripture that tells us, love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.

And marvel not, brothers, if the world hates you. There's always been a tendency, I think, among the people of God to wish we could have the world's approval.

And yet what we really ought to be obsessed with is God's approval. Amen. Well, I'd like you to close with about two minutes of a summary of your thoughts on this subject.

I wish, as Christians, we understood that our duty is not to create clever arguments and novel apologetic strategies, but simply to proclaim the

Word of God and do it accurately and clearly. Because it is the Word of God that has the power to transform hearts and cut through human pretensions and human error and cast down those ideologies that have imprisoned people and bring every thought captive to Christ.

Only the Word of God has the power to do that. It's sharper than any two -edged sword and certainly more effective in reaching unsaved people than all my cleverness and philosophical arguments ever could be.

And if you find yourself wanting to tiptoe around something that's really clear in Scripture, you're not doing a good job of fulfilling the

Great Commission as Christ commanded us to do. We're to teach people to obey all things that Christ has commanded and not to tiptoe around the hard issues, not to try to sand the sharp edges off of truth, but to make it as clear and prominent and accurate as we possibly can.

Well, thank you so much, Phil, for being my guest today. And by the way, Phil returns this Thursday as well as my guest for two hours, so mark your calendar for this

Thursday, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, when Phil Johnson returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And if you'd like to attend the event at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where Phil will be speaking this weekend, go to gracebfc .com.

Grace BFC, which stands for Bible Fellowship Church, gracebfc .com.

And of course, the website for Grace To You, the ministry of John MacArthur, where Phil serves as executive director, that website is gty .org,

gty .org. And Phil, don't forget, is also in January going to be speaking at the

G3 Conference. And you can go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

to register for that event. Thank you so much, Phil, for being my guest today. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Look forward to Thursday, and I want to thank not only Phil, but everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions today.

I want to thank my co -host, the Rev. Buzz Taylor. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater