Open Lines: Keith Green, Open Theism, Waldensians

Opening Banter and Program Introduction

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 866 8 5 4 6 7 6 3. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. I guess it is 2 o 'clock in well in Arizona. Anyways, I guess in the Mountain West. It's 3 o 'clock now, but we won't discuss the strangeness of the mountain time zones and Daylight savings time and all the rest that silliness.

We get so many complaints from people who come into into the chat channel. What timer does the program start it used to start at 4 now? You've changed it and we always good. No, no, we haven't changed anything.

Actually. We always start at the same time. Well my clock changed and say well, we don't play with time here. We leave our clocks alone and we figure time is something that God created. We shouldn't mess with it.

We shouldn't play with it and Besides that the one year we did it it was like a hundred and seven degrees and bright outside at ten o 'clock at night in July which just it makes it very difficult To sleep really when you think about it.

So it's two o 'clock and I'll tell you this day has flown by. I Wanted to get a little more preparation done here. But I got into channel and there was someone in channel that for some reason I just I I just really felt compelled.

I needed to talk to this person concerning their disregard for Christ Church and the fact that They were not in obedience to the Word of God and that pretty much Took up the entire time I had for preparation.

So Maybe we should fill the phone lines at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three Thirty three forty one that would help. Because otherwise that we did get I'm sure I didn't see them, but I'm sure We got all sorts of requests for Warren and I doing doing a duet together and I was thinking about maybe some some Elvis tunes or something along those lines and to avoid that and Believe me you want to avoid that.

Vote vote by calling if you call eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. You can keep that from ever happening ever Taking place on the face this earth. That'd be it. So there whoa, that was quick.

That that was almost immediate that someone someone did that I don't I don't personally take that that personally. But I'm sure that Warren does because he's been waiting for a long long time For this opportunity of hitting the hitting the big time and right Warren Did you see how fast someone called in as soon as I said that that yeah.

Yeah. Well, you're warming up. I thought I heard something but I couldn't tell if it was the My air conditioning going out and screeching or just just what it was You ain't nothing but a hound dog that we're gonna do.

Okay. All right, that's X.

I'm.

Sorry, I'm just kidding. Actually, I do have some stuff here that I want to take a look at. We already have a caller. And I don't know who it is because I forgot to click on The right person here so that I can see stuff.

So if anything has been sent to me by the person who knows I'm talking about you as to who's online I didn't see it. So try it again.

Mmm.

Okay, that's interesting. Anyways. Which I don't think I'd anything to do with my threatening to sing either. But I do have some stuff I want to get to as we work through callers and do things like that.

I have in my hands today two Huge books. I mean these things. These things are massive.

And.

Let's see. How many pages is is this one? It's thick paper, so it's a seven hundred and eighty-eight pages hardback. This is Lawrence Vance's the other side of Calvinism. This is the book that's That Dave Hunt certainly relied upon a lot in the writing of what love is this But I've heard it quoted many many times.

I finally have the revised edition of this thing and I wanted to look at some things in there. I found it fascinating and Then my goodness we have filled the phone lines that is absolutely fascinating.

Could keep that one in mind for the future. But but I think Warren may be moving to Alaska. I'm not sure anyways, and this next one is 801 pages which includes the index Good old Dan corners the believers conditional security Combine these two babies together.

You've got over 1 ,500 pages of pure Man-centered theology, that's what we have here pure man-centered theology, and I was gonna look at some passages in here. The term exegesis does not seem to be known by either author as to actually dealing with the passage it is both of them provide a tremendous example of Really the the mirror image in Evangelicalism quote-unquote of the far right of Roman Catholicism.

No, what do I mean by that? If you've ever talked with a a Roman Catholic who is just Absolutely gaga about Mary and the Pope and all the rest of stuff you discover very quickly that any passage of Scripture Can be utilized to suggest that the passage of Scripture Substantiate their beliefs it could in its original context its original language be absolutely positively irrelevant but It can be used it.

There will be a way to find it tradition becomes such a massive lens through which You see the scriptures that that's what happened now. We've all seen that with Roman Catholics but that happens with evangelicals too and It is a little more frustrating because at least the Roman Catholic admits the role of tradition and you can address that the evangelical says I don't have any tradition and yet they do and hence are enslaved to it and Hence they can sit there and and we've been watching this in channel recently as some of you are in channel know that in the apologetics channel There has been someone coming in that uses the nick Arminius to now I think I know who this person is he refuses and when I say are you such-and-such a person?

He says no comments that pretty much tells me the absolute Anthropocentrism the the focus upon man and the complete willingness to sacrifice.

The.

Entirety of God's freedom to sacrifice God's will God's power to in essence make God completely and totally subject to the creature is so central To to this person's thinking that we sit there and and and you you look at the responses that are offered to pastors scripture and you just.

Eventually, you just take a deep breath and you shake your head and and you just go how? What is operating here that that could cause such blindness what's exactly what these books are filled with. Absolutely filled with and it's extremely frustrating.

It's it's extremely Difficult to get into any kind of meaningful discussion, but that's that's what happens and so. That's that's what these books are all about there's another book. I want to highly recommend to you as well.

I had mentioned it once before but I had finally had the opportunity because of Some issues come up. In fact, I suppose I should let you know Where's my Do-do-do-do-do-do there it is. You know, you got all these books sitting all over the place and they're sitting on top of your handspring visor professional.

Which is very very very nice handspring visor professional. It has 128 megs of Ram in there half of the 16, you know, sixteen hundred one hundred and forty four and you know, that's really really cool.

Anyways. Getting it out here to give you a specific date. We have finally locked down a date. Everyone is always Blah blah blah yourself. Everyone is always Yes, I I saw both of those. Thank you. Everyone is always complaining that I never let people know what in the world we're doing.

And when we're doing it and especially the people get really upset because I just did a debate, you know. Like 20 miles from where they live. They didn't know about it and things like that and I I am bad at that.

There's absolutely no no defense against that accusation. So just to let you know so that people are aware in. Let me see here. Oops. It's the wrong selection there in.

October.

It's actually gonna be November 1st 2nd and 3rd for those of you that are down in The Florida area Tampa specifically, well Florida let's just stay fairly wide there down, Florida first and second of November we are going to be having the debate.

We thought we'd be having Actually this coming weekend is when we thought it would be or maybe past weekend I don't remember which now is gonna be but anyways The debate that we moved because no one was going to be at RTS when we were there but the debate with John Sanders on the subject of inclusivism and open theism and So you might want to put on your calendars.

It's gonna be that weekend. I'll probably don't know yet It hasn't worked out probably preaching somewhere on November 3rd as well. So those of you in the Florida area November 1st 2nd and 3rd You want to put those on your calendar and then those of you in the Texas area and I think this is specifically the Fort Worth area, Dallas Fort Worth.

It's a Suburb of Fort Worth, I believe it is called Countryside Bible. Countryside Bible Church is the name and the 15th 16th and 17th of November I will be there speaking. I know that some Ian Murray is going to be there and Some other names are escaping me at the moment.

There's gonna be people actually worth coming to hear there and it's not including myself in that so that's gonna be a big thing at Countryside Bible of the the weekend of the 16th 17th of November and then I'm gonna be back in st. Louis doing a full seminar on the Subject of the Trinity the 29th 30th and December 1st remember 29 30th and December 1st.

I will be in st. Louis and That will be coming up as well, so November's gonna be really busy and Of course fun part with all that is I teach Monday nights this coming semester. And so I think a bunch of times I'm just gonna have to have Warren come by and pick me up at the airport on the way to class bring my luggage with me.

And it'll be it'll make for a real interesting interesting class when I'm suffering from jet lag. You know flying back from Florida or something like that. That'll be that'll be most interesting. But anyway, so those things are coming up as well and don't forget July 11th for those of you in the New York, New Jersey area.

That's a week from this Thursday debating Patrick Madrid on the subject of.

The.

Veneration of Saints. And I know that a lot of folks have expected that we would have my itinerary on the website. We've always done that in the past. I don't have an itinerary. I don't know where I'm going to be.

So I haven't been able put it up. So there's really just nothing I can do about it. If I get one before I leave then I can put one up, but otherwise we just won't have one this time. There's just nothing I knew about it, I'm just gonna sort of show up and and Talk basically wherever I'm told to go.

So I I'm sorry I can't give you an itinerary as to where I'm gonna be because I only know a few of the places I'm gonna be. I know about the debate and then I know about the last week Weekend, I'm actually gonna be up in the sort of Boston area.

I think somewhere up in Massachusetts anyways and The rest of us could be on Long Island. So You know, we'll see See how that all works out and then Hoping maybe that there might be something going on up in Oregon as soon as I get back from Long Island.

But I haven't heard back on that thing yet. So I really can't make much mention of that. Also have been asked to tell you that we should start adding more selections to the mp3 section on the website this week a Number of people have been asking about that a number of people saying hey, there's only one thing available boy.

We sure would like to be able to get everything else you have in this way.

And.

You know, all I can say is It ain't my job, man. I Know whose job it is, but I'm not gonna tell you who it is, but you can sort of guess so you can just send email to whoever else works here, but isn't me and Say hey, why aren't we having more mp3s up there and you know, he'll he'll probably just ignore that.

But anyways, so those are some of the things that are going on, but we already have two folks online believe it or not. And.

I.

Think I would like to think that both folks called because they just simply have interesting questions and we're just waiting to do so to see if maybe the subject matter would be Open today and not that they were voicing their choice.

Not to hear Warren and I sing the Elvis's greatest hits. Randy was afraid that I was gonna sing.

Okay.

Well, I can understand that but I've gotten some emails from Randy and what I'm afraid is is that when we bring them up? Randy's gonna sing. That would be the greatest fright so you guys stay on the stay on the knob out there it's sort of like because I don't have the little button you can push it just sort of you know dumps the collar because Randy's a Little bit on the different side.

Okay, and he's kind of guy who would start he'd start with Elvis. He really would just to prove that he can do it better than I can so we just need to watch that. So anyways, but we won't bring Randy at first because he may just just Do that.

We'll talk to Carson first. Carson you there? Hello James. Hey, how are you? Good to speak with you?

I.

Was gonna ask you a question about Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Are you gonna sing? Well, I remember when you threatened to sing last time. So, okay.

But you're not not really a singer yourself. No, I play a little bit of guitar though and.

Actually, I Got saved about five years ago. And one of my brothers that led me to the Lord. It's kind of off the subject but his. His wife was in the key screen and she was. You know, I've been a Christian for years so actually I knew who he was and how you did.

I enjoyed.

Last week's program. Yeah, a lot of folks have have written I I suppose I should really really really thank Steve camp when you think about the fact that this guy is Standing there at the the luggage carousel with his cell phone in his hand pulling his luggage off of The carousel while talking to us and walking through the corridors of the Minneapolis Airport, which I've been to a few times.

Absolutely amazing. Most folks would just say hey, you know, I'm just not gonna be able to do it. Sorry. But he didn't do that. And I thought he did a tremendous job and I thought it really went off. Well, so thanks for Listening to the program last week.

But anyways Columbia Evangelical Seminary we had Rick Wollstone on Rich Pierce interviewed him. I forget when that was maybe a year or so ago. Now. I don't know if you've heard that program.

But.

That would probably be a program to listen to if you want to address the larger issues. Yes, I am. I'm not really right. For a while I had to basically tell everybody look I'm. Since I was teaching Christian high school Every day, I just simply couldn't Take any more students.

It was just impossible to do. So and a lot of folks contact me and they say, you know, what about it? Basically, here's this. Actually I appreciate the call because it gives me an opportunity to sort of tell everybody the same thing at the same time.

I.

Basically the the student who would want to have me as a mentor is a person who is a self-starter who does not require sort of a A scholastic nanny in the sense of someone who's going to be on them. All the time for the simple reason that I assume.

The reason that someone would ask me to be their mentor is that they recognize? That.

I'm.

Very very much in the forefront of dealing with apologetic issues. I'm writing my 19th and 20th books at the same time. I've got numerous debate scheduled for the fall traveling all over the place and In light of that They need to see me as a as a source as a sounding board as a person to give them some direction.

But not someone who is going to be looking over their shoulder all the time going, you know. Did you do this do that do this etc, etc. And also someone who recognizes that there's sometimes that for example I have a student right now that just sent in a paper on in an Old Testament paper on the Graph Wellhausen theory and I'm really looking forward to reading it.

However, I leave Thursday morning for Long Island Speaking every Sunday all through July debates so on and so forth and I've had to tell him I won't get a chance to read. So I get back. Well, that's fine with him.

But some folks.

Might have some problem with that. I'm gonna be moving to the Phoenix area in.

October. Oh Well, welcome. That's a good time to come because that's when the heat breaks. Have you ever been through a summer out here before I've.

Been through. I used to long haul truck drive. So When I was there at like 6 30 in the morning in July.

Well, let me tell you something. It's one thing to drive through Phoenix when it's hot.

Glad to get out to help unload the truck. Well, there you go.

But it's another thing to experience that I forget what year it was. It was the year that I was. My family lived at our church and I was the groundskeeper and. That was the year that it hit 100 early May and it stayed 1990.

Was it 90? Yeah, cuz it hit 122 June 26th in 1990 that was the year that it stayed above 100 every single day for like a hundred and forty days and. After that period of time we started shooting each other.

Okay, I'm serious. So we just literally we. We literally started having all sorts of road rage and because everybody was just sick of it. And once you get into the end of July August to September, it doesn't cool down at night.

See right now. It's you know, the mornings are you know? I wrote almost 22 miles on my bike this morning outside and I didn't die. Because it gets down into the upper 70s lower 80s. Well here in a couple weeks.

We will have a few nights. I'm not trying to scare you away. But we just be prepared for the fact that we will have a few nights in August where the low temperature at 530 in the morning as the Sun comes up will be 93 degrees.

Brother, okay. So just just be ready and make sure that whatever you move into has really good air conditioning.

Okay, and I wanted to tell you that um, we'll probably be coming out to see you do Sunday school. That's a Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. Well great and I'm looking into taking classes at Columbia and I just a year and a half ago is when I I made the switch from Being non-reformed to reform that it was the Potter's freedom that did it.

Well, thank you very much.

I've heard that from a lot of folks and it never ceases to amaze me that the Lord would use a Old fat ugly bald guy like me to to be blessing to folks. But that's that's how he does things and I'm hoping the book I'm working on now Co-authored sort of well not co-authored co-authors where you're both working together.

The debate book that I'm writing with Dave Hunt will likewise help folks to see God's absolute freedom and the the sovereignty of his grace. It's a it's a beautiful truth.

Well, I wanted to see nine hours of debating really but.

Well, I hope I still hope that happens. I recognize that that's not overly probable right now. But you know If the Lord wants to happen he's gonna work it out and I'm gonna keep making sure that people know that's.

That I want to see that happen because I think it has its place. It has its use. It really does.

Well, and I came out of Calvary Chapel. I was actually that. Well, it's called Applegate Christian Fellowship, but he Is basically a Calvary Chapel. He's been with Chuck Smith for years. He used to teach at his Bible college.

His name's John Corson I don't know.

No name doesn't ring a bell. No pretty big down in Southern, California I see because he's on Calvary satellite and all that. Well, I really wish I honestly did now. Are you in Southern, California? No right now.

I'm in northern or southern, Oregon, Southern, Oregon. Do you know where Vernonia is?

It must be up north.

Okay, Vernonia, Oregon sort of smack dab in the middle actually that's where possibly now we just haven't heard anything back. But possibly There might be a debate on Roman Catholicism the first week in August.

It's sort of up in the air right now I hope it happens but I Looked on a map and it's a it's 57 miles from Portland. Oh, I would be there. Well, we'll try to let everybody know the problem is I'm not sure Maybe rich can tell us is it is it still our plan to do?

Rich is listening as I'm talking about this. Is it still our plan to do pre-recorded programs through July until we get the server issue? Okay, so if we did pre-recorded programs, I suppose we could add an announcement about a debate once it gets set up At the beginning and let people know we could put on the website just just make sure to hit the website once in a while and You know, we'll try to let folks know.

It's gonna be pre-recorded Warren's greatest hits. Oh great. I'm sure everybody's gonna be listening for that. We'll make sure people, you know, it's at least on the website if that debate Takes place so we can get a chance to meet you and see you over there and get all the folks around Vernonia that metropolitan city there in the middle of Oregon together.

Okay, man. Okay. Looking forward to it. All right. Thanks a lot. God bless. Look forward to meeting you. Okay. All right. Bye-bye. 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

Lawrence Vance, Calvinism, and the Problem of Tradition

I.

Only see one more light and you folks need to understand once the last light goes out Warren comes busting through the door and I think right now he's pasting his long sideburns on even now he has the the white.

The white pants. Oh do it. I do not want to see you practicing the the the hip thing Warren. It's that's that's. No no. Excuse me for a second while I try to get that out of my mind. All right. Mm-hmm.

Let's go to our next caller. Okay, you guys ready in there on the on the button because this is Randy. Okay, Randy. You know, he might actually be very good none of us really know.

Don't want to find out. You don't want to question is do you have air-conditioning in your spare bedroom because I want to move to Phoenix.

Well, if I had a spare bedroom believe you me it would have it because. Basically, there is nothing out here that isn't air-conditioned or at the very very very very very least Swamp-cooled which in August is is not really the term cool is sort of irrelevant at that point.

But it's about 95 in Denver here, too.

It's according to my little little weather bug thing with Bobby here, which I actually shouldn't have up because it takes up some of our. It's a hundred and seven degrees right now here in Phoenix and.

But this is a nice part. Seven percent humidity in the dew point of 30 degrees. Yeah, I figured that I said. I did make the connection. That's why I was worried you might sing.

No, it's only poetry. It's not. It's not a lyric. No, I. I took a look at it and went.

Okay, and then I had to go back to work.

But I appreciate the humor. Well, it is it is unusual. Yeah, but but do you have the recent stuff. Well, you know, I'm gonna order some of it. I got inspired yeah abandoned the God and.

Mercy in the wilderness. Those are the last two and they are really really good.

Well, I Tim I've never seen. That's got a logical position. I didn't like except well, anyway, well, oh you're kidding me. Blasphemous heavy metal. Yes. I pledge my head to heaven. Oh, you're kidding me.

No, I can hear I can hear the laughter out of the next room right now.

Wow, really? So this is this is heavy metal. Well, I do hear a guitar.

Oh.

That's what it is. Okay. Over your body. Oh, that's all right. Well, we do have a connection there. It's done. Oh my oh, you mean the Hayes way? Yes. Do you think you think he'd debate me? Hey, hey, I don't know probably not.

That doesn't sound like like Jerry would be happy about that. Well Jerry.

Oh No, it doesn't ring any bells. Actually. Didn't you miss that one? I miss that one. I'm sorry.

I did do a bunch of radio in 93 when I was in Denver for the debates with Jerry Matta. Take.

Okay, I don't remember who so is he. Is he getting ready to.

Because I think I think most these guys eventually will Just out of consistency have to deny that God has exhaustive knowledge of all present. I think that's the direction that logically they have to go and many people are making that point so far.

They have not Done that but I can tell you what I want to pursue that after this break because I was just told That while Warren is cooling his jets Rich is going to start singing if I don't take a break soon.

So I'm taking this break and then we'll come back to Randy and your phone calls at eight seven seven.

Seven five three thirty three forty one. We'll be right back. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine.

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Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Open Theism, Calvinism, and the Meaning of Tradition

Everybody always asks me what music is that? Well, it's John test stuff some of his early stuff. If you're actually wondering about that you're listening to the dividing line. My name is James White and on the phone from the second most burned over state in the West Colorado.

Yeah, well that we did to. That now remember the lady was out hiking and saw a news helicopter Circling the rodeo fire and decided to signal it with the signal fire and started the Chetis guy fire. Hey, there's.

Whoo, but I wanted to be a hero. That's right. That's right. But before we get to open season, can I give you two little potter's freedom things? Ah, yes. Okay, one is of course I did get my my autographed copy.

Thank you for that. And the weird thing is my chosen but free. Well, there is a little spring device. We've been installing but let's not talk about that. But hey, no, I have a former student of mine.

Actually, I never had him in Bible. He was too young. I had him in a reformed position, which was a great joy to me.

Yeah.

Well, I've gotten. Sadly we could unfortunately multiply the number of examples of that the the power of tradition and.

The the response that you get at the presentation of something that is considered to be contrary to that tradition is Truly amazing. It is we had a situation like that just today and channel in fact, but You got to trust, you know, I'm so thankful for that little quote from Spurgeon and that is that he spoke of how Christ's sheep will not be scandalized by Christ's truth and That's what you got to hold on to.

You really do. But anyways back to open the ism. Yes I did for a while. I think I mentioned to you once The time that I went and the how disappointing it was, you know, anybody who does have it.

Did you get a copy of the current issue because I think you'd find it useful before your debate. I can certainly track it down. Yeah, the June 2002. They they there's in Boyd. Yes, that's very useful.

You're thinking on that. I also have the Good good. Excellent. And my well, I'm recommending. One other one would be a profit. No, I haven't. Heaters stays in there. What was what was the old Providence?

Okay, and that would be okay. It's called problems repair.

How does God work in the world by Terrence L Tisan that it is published?

By.

Where are all the details? Here it is university. Yep.

May 2000 by the way, I do. Thank you for putting up the. Well, we want to and will be making available.

A vast majority of our stuff in that form. Because that's the fastest way. It's it's also the easiest for us, especially for a small ministry. It's it's very difficult for us doing all the production of the tapes and things like that.

And for a lot of folks today and all they I know there's so many people take the Tapes and then go home and digitize them. Anyways, but I did you know. Yeah, you know I run around with an mp3 player in.

You know, I when I wrote this morning I had Stephen Curtis Chapman keeping me peddling at a high high rate of speed as I'm and it's on it. It's an mp3 player who needs something spinning around or turning or eating the tape or whatever.

Yeah, I got an mp3 player back there. So I do have one trivia question for you. I don't know the adult. Oh.

That was oh Supposedly the biggest church in the country. Yeah. Oh for some reason someone in the channel maybe can help me here. It was the they also gave A doctorate to a horse. No, I'm serious. They actually gave an honorary doctorate to.

No, it was to the the who was the guy that he was a real big fundamentalist writer. He died Number of years ago. He had a horse and Jack Hiles Church. It was Jack Jack Hiles's school is the one that gave Gail Rippling or her doctorate and.