Open Lines: Keith Green, Open Theism, Waldensians

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the United States It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. I guess it is two o 'clock in well in Arizona Anyways, I guess in the

Mountain West. It's three o 'clock now, but we won't discuss the strangeness of the

Mountain time zones and daylight savings time and all the rest that silliness We get so many complaints from people who come into into the chat channel

What timer does the program start it used to start at four now? You've changed it and we always good

No, no, we haven't changed anything. Actually, we always start at the same time

Well, my clock changed and say well, we don't play with time here We leave our clocks alone and we figure time is something that God created.

We shouldn't mess with it. We shouldn't play with it and Besides that the one year we did it It was like a hundred and seven degrees and bright outside at ten o 'clock at night in July Which just it makes it very difficult to sleep really when you think about it

So it's two o 'clock and I'll tell you this day has flown by I Wanted to get a little more preparation done here

But I got into channel and there was someone in channel that For some reason

I just I I just really felt compelled. I needed to talk to this person concerning their disregard for Christ Church and the fact that They were not in obedience to the

Word of God and that pretty much Took up the entire time I had for preparation.

So Maybe we should fill the phone lines At eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one that would help

Because otherwise we did get I'm sure I didn't see them, but I'm sure

We got all sorts of requests for Warren and I doing doing a duet together and I was thinking about maybe some some

Elvis tunes or something along those lines and to avoid that and Believe me you want to avoid that vote vote by calling

If you call eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. You can keep that from ever happening ever

Taking place on the face this earth. That'd be it said there. Whoa, that was quick That that was almost immediate that someone someone did that I don't

I don't personally take that that personally but I'm sure that Warren does because he's been waiting for a long long time for this opportunity of Hitting the hitting the big time and right

Warren. Did you see how fast someone called in as soon as I said that that? Well, you're warming up I thought

I heard something but I couldn't tell if it was the My air conditioning going out and screeching or just just what it was

You ain't nothing but a hound dog that we're gonna do. Okay. All right, that's X I'm Sorry, I'm just kidding.

Actually, I do have some stuff here that I want to take a look at we already have a caller And I don't know who it is because I forgot to click on The right person here so that I can see stuff

So if anything has been sent to me by the person who knows I'm talking about you as to who's online I didn't see it.

So try it again Mmm Okay, that's interesting

Anyways Which I don't think I'd anything to do with my threatening to sing either But I do have some stuff I want to get to as we work through callers and do things like that.

I have in my hands today two Huge books.

I mean these things These things are massive and Let's see.

How many pages is is this one? I'm just seeing a thick paper. So it's a 788 pages hardback

This is Lawrence Vance's the other side of Calvinism. This is the book that's That Dave Hunt certainly relied upon a lot in the writing of what love is this

But I've heard it quoted many many times. I finally have the revised edition of this thing and I wanted to look at some things in there.

I found it fascinating and Then my goodness, we have filled the phone lines. That is absolutely fascinating I Could keep that one in mind for the future

But but I think Warren may be moving to Alaska. I'm not sure anyways, and this next one is 801 pages which includes the index

Good old Dan corners the believers conditional security

Combine these two babies together. You've got over 1 ,500 pages of pure Man -centered theology, that's what we have here pure man -centered theology and I was going to look at some passages in here

The term exegesis does not seem to be known by either author as to actually dealing with the passage it is both of them provide a tremendous example of Really the the mirror image in Evangelicalism quote -unquote of the far right of Roman Catholicism No, what do

I mean by that? If you've ever talked with a Roman Catholic who is just Absolutely gaga about Mary and the

Pope and all the rest of stuff you discover very quickly that any passage of Scripture Can be utilized to substantiate their beliefs

It could in its original context its original language be absolutely positively irrelevant but It can be used it.

There will be a way to find it tradition becomes such a massive lens through which

You see the scriptures that that's what happened now. We've all seen that with Roman Catholics but that happens with evangelicals too and It is a little more frustrating because at least the

Roman Catholic admits the role of tradition and you can address that the evangelical says

I don't have any tradition and yet they do and hence are enslaved to it and Hence they can sit there and and we've been watching this in channel recently as some of you are in channel know that in the apologetics channel

There has been someone coming in that uses the nick Arminius to now I think I know who this person is he refuses and when

I say are you such -and -such a person? He says no comments that pretty much tells me the absolute anthropocentrism the the focus upon man and the complete willingness to sacrifice the

Entirety of God's freedom to sacrifice God's will

God's power to in essence make God completely and totally subject to the creature is so central

To to this person's thinking that we sit there and and and you you look at the responses that are offered to pastors scripture and you just eventually, you just take a deep breath and you shake your head and and you just go how

What is operating here that that could cause such blindness what's exactly what these books are filled with Absolutely filled with and it's extremely frustrating

It's it's extremely Difficult to get into any kind of meaningful discussion, but that's that's what happens and so That's that's what these books are all about there's another book.

I want to highly recommend to you as well I had mentioned it once before but I had finally had the opportunity because of some issues come up in fact,

I suppose I should let you know of where's my Dude, there it is.

You know, you got all these books sitting all over the place and they're sitting on top of your handspring visor professional

Which is very very very nice handspring visor professional. It has 128 megs of Ram in there after the 16, you know, 1600 144 and you know, it's really really cool.

Anyways Getting it out here to give you a specific date. We have finally locked down a date. Everyone is always

Blah blah blah yourself. Everyone is always Yes, I I saw both of those.

Thank you Everyone is always complaining that I never let people know what in the world we're doing And when we're doing it and especially the people get really upset because I just did a debate, you know

Like 20 miles from where they live they didn't know about it and things like that and I I am bad at that There's absolutely no no defense against that accusation.

So just to let you know so that people are aware in Let me see here.

Oops. It's the wrong selection there in October It's actually gonna be

November 1st 2nd and 3rd for those of you that are down in The Florida area

Tampa specifically, well, Florida, let's just stay fairly wide there down,

Florida first and second of November we are going to be having the debate.

We thought we'd be having Actually this coming weekend is when we thought it would be or maybe past weekend

I don't remember which now is gonna be but anyways The debate that we moved because no one was going to be at RTS when we were there but the debate with John Sanders on the subject of inclusivism and open theism and So you might want to put on your calendars.

It's gonna be that weekend. I'll probably don't know yet It hasn't worked out probably preaching somewhere on November 3rd as well.

So those of you in the Florida area November 1st 2nd and 3rd You want to put those on your calendar and then those of you in the

Texas area and I think this is specifically the Fort Worth area, Dallas, Fort Worth.

It's a Suburb of Fort Worth, I believe it is called

Countryside Bible Countryside Bible Church is the name and the 15th 16th and 17th of November I will be there speaking.

I know that some Ian Murray is going to be there and Some other names are escaping me at the moment

There's gonna be people actually worth coming to hear there and it's not including myself in that so that's gonna be a big thing a countryside

Bible of the the weekend of the 16th 17th of November and then

I'm gonna be back in st. Louis doing a full seminar on the

Subject of the Trinity the 29th 30th and December 1st, remember 29 30th and December 1st

I will be in st. Louis and That will be coming up as well, so November is gonna be really busy and Of course fun part with all that is

I teach Monday nights this coming semester And so I think a bunch of times I'm just gonna have to have

Warren come by and pick me up at the airport on the way to class bring my luggage with me and it'll be it'll make for a real interesting

Interesting class when I'm suffering from jet lag, you know flying back from Florida or something like that That'll be that'll be most interesting.

But anyways, so those things are coming up as well and don't forget July 11th for those of you in the

New York, New Jersey area. That's a week from this Thursday debating

Patrick Madrid on the subject of the

Veneration of Saints and I know that a lot of folks have expected that we would have

My itinerary on the website. We've always done that in the past. I don't have an itinerary. I don't know where I'm gonna be

So I haven't been able to put it up. So there's really just nothing I can do about it If I get one before I leave then

I can put one up. But otherwise we just won't have one this time There's just nothing

I can do about it, I'm just gonna sort of show up and and Talk basically wherever I'm told to go.

So I I'm sorry I can't give you an itinerary as to where I'm gonna be because I only know a few of the places I'm gonna be

I know about the debate and then I know about the last week Weekend, I'm actually gonna be up in the sort of Boston area.

I think somewhere up in Massachusetts anyways and The rest of us could be on Long Island. So You know, we'll see

See how that all works out and then Hoping maybe that there might be something going on up in Oregon as soon as I get back from Long Island But I haven't heard back on that thing yet.

So I really can't make much mention of that Also have been asked to tell you that we should start adding more selections to the mp3 section on the website this week a

Number of people have been asking about that a number of people saying hey, there's only one thing available boy

We sure would like to be able to get everything else you have in this way and You know, all

I can say is It ain't my job, man. I Know whose job it is, but I'm not gonna tell you who it is, but you can sort of guess so you can just send email to whoever else works here, but isn't me and Say hey, why aren't we having more mp3s up there and you know, he'll he'll probably just ignore that But anyways, so those are some of the things that are going on, but we already have two folks online believe it or not.

And I Think I would like to think that both folks called because they just simply have interesting questions and we're just waiting to do so to see if maybe the subject matter would be

Open today and not that they were voicing their choice

Not to hear Warren and I sing the Elvis's greatest hits

Randy was afraid that I was gonna sing Okay well I can understand that but I've gotten some emails from Randy and what

I'm afraid is is that when we bring them up Randy's gonna sing That would be the greatest fright so you guys stay on the stay on the knob out there it's sort of like because I don't have the little button you can push it just sort of you know dumps the collar because Randy's a

Little bit on the different side. Okay, and he's kind of guy who would start he'd start with Elvis He really would just to prove that he can do it better than I can so we just need to watch that So anyways, but we won't bring

Randy at first because he may just just Do that. We'll talk to Carson first Carson you there?

Hello James. Hey, how are you? Good to speak with you. I Asked you a question about Columbia Evangelical Seminary.

Are you gonna sing? Well, I remember when you threatened to sing last time. So okay, I figured but you're not it's not really a singer yourself

No, I play a little bit of guitar though. And actually, I Got saved about five years ago.

And one of my brothers that led me to the Lord It's kind of off the subject but his his wife was into Keith Green and she was

You know, I've been a Christian for years so actually I knew who he was and how you did I enjoyed

Last week's program. Yeah, a lot of folks have have written I I suppose I should really really really thank

Steve camp when you think about the fact that this guy is Standing there at the the luggage carousel with his cell phone in his hand pulling his luggage off of the carousel while talking to us and Walking through the corridors of the

Minneapolis Airport, which I've been to a few times Absolutely amazing most folks would just say hey, you know,

I'm just not gonna be able to do it. Sorry but he didn't do that and I thought he did a tremendous job and I thought it really went off well, so thanks for Listening to the program last week.

But anyways Columbia Evangelical Seminary. We had Rick Walston on Rich Pierce interviewed him.

I forget when that was maybe a year or so ago now. I don't know if you've heard that program but That would probably be a program to listen to if you want to address the larger issues

Yes, I am and I'm not really right for a while I had to basically tell everybody look

I'm Since I was teaching Christian high school Every day

I just simply couldn't Take any more students. It was just impossible to do so and a lot of folks contact me and they say, you know

What about it? Basically, here's this actually I appreciate the call because it gives me an opportunity to sort of tell everybody the same thing at the same time

I Basically the the student who would want to have me as a mentor is a person who is a self -starter who does not require

Sort of a Scholastic nanny in the sense of someone who's going to be on them

All the time for the simple reason that I assume The reason that someone would ask me to be their mentor is that they recognize

That I'm Very very much in the forefront of dealing with apologetic issues.

I'm writing my 19th and 20th books at the same time I've got numerous debates scheduled for the fall traveling all over the place and in light of that They need to see me as a as a source as a sounding board as a person who give them some direction

But not someone who is going to be looking over their shoulder all the time going, you know Did you do this do that do this etc, etc

And also someone who recognizes that there's sometimes that for example I have a student right now that just sent in a paper on in an

Old Testament paper on the Graf Wellhausen theory and I'm really looking forward to reading it.

However, I leave Thursday morning for Long Island speaking every Sunday all through July Debates so on so forth and I've had to tell him

I won't get a chance to read till I get back Well, that's fine with him. But some folks Might have some problem with that.

I'm gonna be moving to the Phoenix area in October. Oh Well, welcome.

That's a good time to come because that's when the heat breaks Have you ever been through a summer out here before? I've Been through I used to long haul truck drive.

So When I was there at like 6 30 in the morning in July Well, let me tell you something it's one thing to drive through Phoenix when it's hot

Glad to get out and help unload the truck. Well, there you go But it's another thing to experience that I forget which year it was.

It was the year that I was My family lived at our church and I was the groundskeeper and That was the year that it hit 100 early

May and it stayed 1990. Was it 90? Yeah, cuz it hit 122 June 26th in 1990 that was the year that it stayed above 100 every single day for like a hundred and forty days and After that period of time we started shooting each other.

Okay, I'm serious. So we just literally we We literally started having all sorts of road rage and because everybody was just sick of it

And once you get into the end of July August to September, it doesn't cool down at night

See right now. It's you know, the mornings are you know? I rode almost 22 miles on my bike this morning outside and I didn't die

Because it gets down into the upper 70s lower 80s. Well here in a couple weeks. We will have a few nights

I'm not trying to scare you away But we just be prepared for the fact that we will have a few nights in August where the low temperature at 530 in the morning as the

Sun comes up will be 93 degrees Brother, okay. So just just be ready and make sure that whatever you move into has really good air conditioning

Okay, and I wanted to tell you that um, we'll probably be coming out to see you do Sunday school

That's a Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. Oh great, and I'm looking into taking classes at Columbia and I just a year and a half ago is when

I I made the switch from Being non -reformed to reformed and it was the Potter's freedom that did it.

Well, thank you very much I've heard that from a lot of folks and it never ceases to amaze me that the

Lord would use a Old fat ugly bald guy like me to to be blessing to folks

But that's that's how he does things and I'm hoping the book I'm working on now Co -authored sort of well not co -authored co -authors where you're both working together the debate book that I'm writing with Dave Hunt will likewise help folks to see

God's absolute freedom and the the sovereignty of his grace. It's a it's a beautiful truth well,

I wanted to see nine hours of debating really but Well, I hope I still hope that happens.

I recognize that that's not overly probable right now But you know

If the Lord wants to happen He's going to work it out and I'm going to keep making sure that people know that That I want to see that happen because I think it has its place.

It has its use. It really does Well, and I came out of Calvary Chapel exactly that well, it's called

Applegate Christian Fellowship, but he It's basically a Calvary Chapel. He's been with Chuck Smith for years.

He used to teach at his Bible college. His name's John Corson I don't know Uh, no name doesn't ring a bell no pretty big down in Southern, California I see because he's on Calvary Satellite and all that.

Well, I really wish I honestly did now Are you in Southern, California? No right now. I'm in northern or southern,

Oregon, Southern, Oregon. Do you know where Vernonia is? It must be up north

Okay, Vernonia, Oregon sort of smack dab in the middle actually that's where possibly now we just haven't heard anything back

But possibly There might be a debate on Roman Catholicism the first week in August.

It's sort of up in the air right now I hope it happens but I Looked on a map and it's a it's 57 miles from Portland.

Oh, I would be there Well, we'll try to let everybody know the problem is I'm not sure

Maybe Rich can tell us is it is it still our plan to do? Rich is listening as I'm talking about this.

Is it still our plan to do pre -recorded programs through July until we get the server issue? Okay, so if we did pre -recorded programs,

I suppose we could add an announcement about a debate once it gets set up At the beginning and let people know we could put on the website just just make sure to hit the website once in a while and You know, we'll try to let folks know

It's gonna be pre -recorded Warren's greatest hits. Oh great. I'm sure everybody's be listening for that We'll make sure people, you know, it's at least on the website if that debate

Takes place so we can get a chance to meet you and see you over there and get all the folks around Vernonia that metropolitan city there in the middle of Oregon together

Okay, man. Okay. Looking forward to it. All right. Thanks a lot guys. Look forward to meeting you. Okay. All right. Bye -bye 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341

I Only see one more light and you folks need to understand once the last light goes out Warren comes busting through the door and I think right now he's pasting his long sideburns on even now

He has the the white The white pants Oh do it. I do not want to see you practicing the the the hip thing

Warren It's that's that's no no Excuse me for a second while I try to get that out of my mind.

All right. Mm -hmm. Let's go to our next caller Okay, you guys ready in there on the on the button because this is

Randy. Okay, Randy You know, he might actually be very good none of us really know

Well, if I had a spare bedroom believe you me it would have it because Basically, there is nothing out here

That isn't air -conditioned or at the very very very very very least swamp cooled which in August is is not really the term cool is sort of irrelevant at that point, but It's according to my little little weather bug thing with Bobby here which

I actually shouldn't have up because it takes up some of our it's a hundred and seven degrees right now here in Phoenix and But this is a nice part seven percent humidity in the dew point of 30 degrees

I'd probably help say have you brushed up when Yeah, I figured that I said

I did make the connection that's why I was worried you might sing No, it's only a poetry. It's not it's not a lyric

No, I I took a look at it and went Okay, and then I had to go back to work

But I appreciate the humor. Well, it is it is unusual. Hey, I can tie in a cup I really appreciated the

Keith Bell.

Mm -hmm, and I certainly enjoyed Steve album long before early days.

Yeah Yeah, but do you have the recent stuff? Well, you know,

I'm gonna order some of it I got inspired so I definitely plan to get some of the reef.

Yeah abandon the God and Mercy in the wilderness. Those are the last two and they are really really good

Well, I the tie -in I had was of course being a Keith Green fan But enjoyed, you know pledged my head to have an accord album

He came out right around that time and we had these discussions and the tie -in here is that the school that I attended

Christian Heritage College or hey, hmm

I've never seen an eschatological position. I didn't like except well Anyway, well his school had a lot of Bob's trying to talk to the

Dean of Students and you know Trying to get some freedom for the for the kids in the dorm to listen to some good music like my bride in a sample

And you know, I couldn't slip resist flipping in a res band went in there, too But but the one that I thought pledged my head to heaven.

Mm -hmm. And at the end of the song, oh, you're kidding man

I said, okay. I don't think we're gonna get too far Blasphemous heavy metal.

Yes, I pledge my head to heaven He said I'd rather have my son go to the real thing like the Rolling Stones any know he was sinning

Oh, you're kidding me. No, and his son did when the stones came to town the next time I can hear

I can hear the Laughter out of the next room right now But in the divine providence of God his son later straightened out and is now a professor at that same school.

Wow, really? Oh, yeah his name. Dr. Fred Blackburn. He was the rebellious teenager in the 80s early 80s

But now he's a professor and serving the Lord. So so this is this is heavy metal I Do hear a guitar well,

I think I think you know, it's got that anapestic beat. I think they call. Oh, oh, that's what it is

Okay over your body. Oh, that's all right. Well, so we do have a connection there between Keith Green and Tim LaHaye and Dave Hunt and all that good stuff.

I did want to mention It's been eight months I think since I was able to call in because of various conflicts and you guys not taking calls when

I could get through and The web being down and all that but I have I do have an interesting review on my website content for the faith

That's what the dot -org There is a little perspective on the endorsement that you might find humorous my oh, you mean now the

Hayes way Yes, so I spent half the review discussing the endorsement probably Do you think he'd debate me?

Hunt or hey, hey, I don't know probably not. He probably think it's beneath his dignity. He's got to get writing that new 45 mil

Jenkins. Oh Doesn't have to split this one. Ouch So I that doesn't sound like like Jerry would be happy about that.

Well, Jerry said he wasn't asked so But he's got enough books out there you'll do okay but anyway, have you heard of Bob in your

RT's a Christian talk -show host out here at Denver. He probably got his biggest international fame

We went to the OJ Simpson auction and bought several of his memorabilia items and it has No, it doesn't ring any bells actually didn't you miss that one

I miss that one I'm sorry I did do a bunch of radio in 93 when I was in Denver for the debates with Jerry Matta ticks

Yeah, he was around then, you know bopping around 80 number on the channel

TV stations I kind of think I don't remember him He was kind of trying to be the Christian Rush Limbaugh and that kind of thing

But anyway the tie -in there with your upcoming debate is that I was at ETS, of course that's when

I talked to you last after ETS and I ran into him at a coffee shop and we Started talking as if he asked what we've been up to anyway, it came up that we'd be down He said oh

I see John Sanders and so we started talking and I find out that this guy is such a die -hard

Open theist that give you an idea of what's out there. He thinks Sanders doesn't go far enough Oh, so is he is he getting ready to?

Because I think I think most of these guys eventually will Just out of consistency have to deny that God has exhaustive knowledge of all present

Okay, what's his point exactly he said that he said Santa's goes too far because he thinks

God knows everything here is his analogy He said do you really think that God wants to know everything that go?

Some of a gay bar in San Francisco. Wow, and he said you think God really knows the path of every

Proton and neutron and electron whatever orbits what it's been a while since college Path of every one in every molecule of human refuse that's been flushed down sewers and since Western civilization began

And that was the way he blew off the whole thing So he said it's ridiculous to say that God has absolute present knowledge

I think that's the direction that logically they have to go and many people are making that point so far.

They have not Done that but I can tell you what I want to pursue that after this break because I was just told

That while Warren is cooling his jets Rich is going to start singing if I don't take a break soon

So I'm taking this break and then we'll come back to Randy and your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three

Forty one will be right back the history of the

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Org, this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace

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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

Everybody always asks me what music is that? Well, it's John test stuff some of his early stuff if you're actually wondering about that you're listening to the dividing line

My name is James White and on the phone from the second most burned over state in the

West Colorado Yeah, well that we did to That now remember the lady was out hiking and saw a news helicopter circling the rodeo fire and decided to signal it with the signal fire and started the

Chetis guy fire Hey, there's That's right, that's right

Can I give you two little Potter's freedom things? Ah, yes. Okay. One is of course

I did get my my autographed copy Thank you for that. And the weird thing is my chosen but free kept falling out of the shelf until I actually separated them

Well, there is a little spring device. We've been installing but let's not talk about that.

But hey, no, I have a former student of mine actually, I never had him in Bible and then he moved to Missouri, but came from a very

Armenian background and we started dialoguing and going back and forth via good old email and You know to sum it all up he ended up taking the

Reform position, which was a great joy to me Yeah But he got accused of discussing

Calvinism in his youth group and got a call from a former pastor Who violently attacked him and the great?

The thing you'll find amusing was the guy actually 14 and said many are called but few choose

And that was his argument To read from my oh, yeah, this dude these kids 18 years old, but to read his quote

He says few choose matter chosen. I was completely speechless He directly misquoted the verse that said the exact opposite and even explicitly claimed the verse did not say what it actually does say

He went on with more false accusations and slander against me and finally closed closed with the accusation

You pray to the devil and hung up on me. I couldn't believe it My former pastor of his church

Wow, so many are called but you choose you pray to the devil quick Well, I've gotten sadly we could unfortunately multiply the number of examples of that the the power of tradition and the the response that you get at the presentation of something that that is considered to be contrary to that tradition is

Truly amazing it is we had a situation like that just today and channel in fact, but You got to trust, you know,

I'm so thankful for that little quote from Spurgeon and that is that He spoke of how

Christ's sheep will not be scandalized by Christ's truth. And that's what you got to hold on to You really do but anyways back to open the ism.

Yes I did for a while. I think

I mentioned to you once The time that I went and the how disappointing it was, you know, anybody who does have it

Could you get a copy of the current issue because I think you'd find it useful before your debate I can certainly track it down.

Yeah, you know the June 2002 they print Bruce wears Keynote is plenary on defining evangelicals and then they print replies by Pinnock Sanders and Boyd and then

I rejoined her by Where to a Pinnock Sanders and Boyd's I think you'd find that.

Yes. Yes, very useful the current thinking on that. I also have the Hellenistic or Hebrew open theism and reformed theological method by Michael Horton So I think you'd find it a worthwhile issue to pick up good good.

Excellent. And my well, I'm recommending One other one would be a providence and prayer.

Have you seen that by Terence Thyssen? No, I haven't He's a professor up at actually a college.

My sister graduated from up in in Manitoba, Canada It used to be called Winnipeg Bible Providence College and Seminary up there and near Winnipeg, Manitoba And he's written a very good book.

It's probably I don't know in you know, 400 pager But what he does is he goes through well, it must be ten different models of prayer full -blown reformed theology through Arminian ism open theism and variations in between Molin ism everything else and looks at a scenario and how these people would pray and expect

God to respond to this like you know missionaries getting kidnapped kind of scenario and then uses the people in this church group to Represent all these different views and then presents his own and it's very well done.

It's from a reformed perspective but it He's friends with Sanders Stays in touch with Sanders and so Sanders and Pinnock have said that he was one of those that opposed them

But in a friendly way that they felt like he treated them as a brother active

Mm -hmm, but he does a nice job of kind of summarizing everything from him. He has a Bardian model in there

And what was what was the old Providence in prayer? I think it's inner varsity, but it's a major publisher Baker Booker and it's

Terrence Teason ti e s s e n Okay, and that would be an excellent resource too because he's somebody who's knows it well enough because he sees friends good friends with John Sanders even though they disagree on this.

Okay, it's called problems repair How does God work in the world by Terrence L? Teason that it is published?

by Where are all the details? Here it is inner varsity.

Yep May 2000 by the way, I do thank you for putting up the mp3s to we get

DSL at work now And so a matter of minutes I downloaded the files gave him a credit card number and listen to the whole debate the same day

Well, we want to and will be making available Vast majority of our stuff in that form

Because that's the fastest way. It's it's also the easiest for us, especially for a small ministry. It's it's very difficult for us doing all the

Production of the tapes and and things like that and for a lot of folks today All they I know there's so many people take the tapes and then go home and digitize them.

Anyways, but I do you know Yeah, you know I run around with an mp3 player in you know,

I've when I wrote this morning I had Stephen Curtis Chapman keeping me Pedaling at a high high rate of speed as I'm and it's on it

It's an mp3 player who needs something spinning around or turning or eating the tape or whatever Yeah, we got an mp3 player back there.

So I do have one trivia question for you I don't know the answer to so it's a plea for help

Who gave Gail a doctorate? Oh, that was oh Supposedly the biggest church in the country.

Yeah. Oh for some reason someone in the channel maybe can help me here It was the they also gave a doctorate to a horse

No, I'm serious. They actually gave an honorary doctorate to No, it was to the the who was the guy that he was a real big fundamentalist writer.

He died Number of years ago. He had a horse and Jack Hiles Church. It was

Jack Jack Hiles is school is the one that gave Gail Rippling or her doctorate and Yeah, and they also gave who was sore the

Lord who's sore the Lord oh Yeah, say yeah

That right. I think so. They gave John R. Rice's horse an honorary doctor as well

So if you want to have a doctorate, you know, that's the place to go.

That's all right With my kids the There you go Well, you know

I'm not gonna say anything more about this at all. Well, it's been a it's been a while, but it's good talking again

All right. Thanks for listening and Randy. Take care. All right. God bless 877 -753 -3341

Have you ever noticed that I get quiet there for that's because I'm leaning over and I'm looking at my at my phone and I can see now sometimes

I can't I can't always see Because sometimes I'm not sure why the lights don't light up when it's on a certain line or something like that, but I don't see any lights over there and in my little window here where I talk to the guys on the other side of The wall, it's a completely blank

There are no insults in there. There's there's nothing and there's especially no indication of anyone on the phone and I do

I think hear the sonorous tones of someone on the other side of the wall Warming up because he would know this before I would

So that probably means that we don't well, there's Zeke I can hear Zeke in the background

The Zeke is singing or is that Warren? Oh The walls not as thick as you thought it was that was

Warren harmonizing with It's Warren harmonizing with Zeke, uh, did we just crash or something

I just we just got disconnected there didn't we Anyways, I lost the chat channel there for just a moment 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number

For you to get involved sky man's back in channel. Maybe he never left. I don't know but Oh, by the way, not that we really have any room for anyone left

Oh Before I forget because I'm gonna forget I'm gonna forget This is pretty much the absolute positive last weekend

For the cruise July 1st is the absolute cutoff date. And so this is it if you've been on if you've been on the fence if you have

Have been thinking about it. I know that someone in channel right now is trying to get in we had the couple more people

Jump on board. This is it If you want to get on the cruise at the 8th,

I think it's leaves August 31st inside passage up in Alaska this is going to be the end the

This is it And so you need to hit our website and get hold of the folks by July 1st because that's when everything has to be in that's that's all there is to it and so I Would love to have you with us.

I'm looking forward to the Opportunity of meeting all sorts of folks that I've only talked to in various and sundry other ways

Maybe electronically or whatever But It's going to be a wonderful time.

I'm going to be speaking primarily interesting enough on the issue of open theism and the worship of God, so That's going to be what

I'm going to be talking about There are other people who could be speaking on the cruise as well those that information is on our website.

You can see it But this is going to be the last call for the this particular cruise.

Anyways, I I don't know what the future holds but it's The only one that I know of is that's that we're going to be coming up on is is this one so That's all someone couldn't make the cruise bummer.

I'm sorry to hear that. Anyways This is the last call. So I made that announcement.

What else was I saying? I Let me look at here, let's see.

Oh, no, there's still nothing in that little window. There's nothing there at all Okay Warren you you getting ready over there?

And I don't hear anything right now. So that must means he's all warmed up I Was going to mention and I don't think

I ever got around to mentioning We have callers. Oh We do have callers you guys just haven't told me about it.

Oh Okay, all right, oh, oh well

Oh, well Mr. In -N -Out burgers on online.

Okay, that's good. Mr. In -N -Out out Target burger. I think is what?

I Was trying to order a book while we're doing this and it and it did it didn't work

It said my it said my shopping cart was empty and my shopping cart was not empty I don't like when it tells my shopping cart is empty when it's not empty

But see rant see Randy should be happy because I'm I'm taking his on his advice

I'm getting that book. So that's that's pretty that's pretty neat. But anyways, we do have callers

So all the Warren Smith fan club stop writing me and complaining, okay you know, we're trying to as best we can but You know, that's just that's just the way it is.

And we also have oh We have another another call. So let's start with let's start with Johnny.

Let's talk to Johnny. Hello, Johnny I'm doing okay All right.

Well, I have a question I've been struggling a little bit on something because I remember it some time ago

I told you about a debate that took place on the radio between two Calvary Chapel pastors and two

Roman Catholics Tim Staples and Jesse Romero I Remember something about what was the topic or is it just sort of a general all over the road type thing?

yeah, they talked about a lot a number of different things and You know the typical apologetics of Tim Staples and Jesse Romero.

Yes, okay, you know You know Jesse likes quoting encyclopedias and somehow that proves that the church is the true church or something like that but one of the things that they brought up on the show and this is where you come in on this because I'm not

I'm trying To find out exactly what the truth is on this issue I passed I spoke with pastor David King online and he he said that he wasn't aware of the issues there it has to do with the the

Albigenses of the I believe it's the late 12th early 13th centuries and not so on.

Mm -hmm and the Why they were talking about whether or not there were

Christians quote -unquote Christians as we Protestants understand them during the Middle Ages before Wycliffe was and the

Reformers and The two Calvary Chapel pastors that mentioned will be

Albigenses and they said and Jesse said they both are Gnostic heretics They were saying that's a

Catholic line and on and so forth and I was like really so I started looking at some of the

Books that I have in my little library and I was looking I think it was though and one by old Harold OJ Brown Heresies, I think he's mentioned that and also in another book on Roman Catholicism Where they list them as a

Gnostic heretics, but in my CD ROM that you got that I got from you guys The Reformation history library.

There's all kinds of books. They're defending the Albigenses as well as Christians, right? And I'm wondering what's the story there?

Why where do we have two conflicting stories about what they believed? Well primarily because of the the materials that are available to determine such things remember that when you're looking at any group that was in The minority in the past especially in the

Dark Ages or or periods like that we basically are

Recruit trying to recreate their beliefs on the basis of what their enemies said about them and It's not that you can't do that.

It's just that it's obviously not easy to do that it's it can be very tricky and and obviously those who were for example when you look at Albigensians or Waldensians the churches of Piedmont Valley Groups like that first of all you can't assume that everybody in those groups believe the exact same thing

I mean that would like that be like saying well as long as you're a Baptist that means that 1 ,500 years from now people can look at All Baptists and know exactly what all

Baptists believed about everything if that's not the case So that you put all that together and the the problem is that you're trying to Use a term

Albigensians in a too broad of a scope were there Problems in systematic theology with various Albigensians well

I think you could probably make a good case that there was Does that mean that all Albigensians were heretical?

No, and what's the main problem in our finding this out? The Roman Catholic Church was busy murdering them without mercy.

That's the main problem It's it's amazing to me that people can't see that as soon as you raise the issue of the the murder of innocent

Christian people on the part of Roman Catholicism Well, you know Calvin Burns surveyed us and to which

I say well so much for the infallibility of Calvin But also so much the infallibility of the Roman Church, so it's really it's a historical issue as far as trying to determine

What sources have the most validity and and when you have? Contradictions between what one

Inquisitor said another Inquisitor says and so on so forth very little of their own Literary Production which was very small anyways has survived and so you're trying to build it on the basis of all sorts of different sources

And that's why you get all sorts of different responses now One of the other reasons would be that during the period of the

Reformation we could honestly say the Protestants had a

Real reason to try to point to such groups, and I don't know that I point to the Albigensians I think you look at the churches of Piedmont Valley Valley in the

Waldensians as much more of a likely group of Individuals who would be

Orthodox in their beliefs and yet outside of the of the Roman Communion Then you were the

Albigensians because they seem to be a more eclectic group, but in answer to your question That's why you've got all the different You know all the different opinions.

What about the portions? I don't I don't have the book on the screen right now and One of the things he was the author was doing was

Translating some of their I guess I don't I don't know if you could call it confessions, but some of their doctrinal statements Well, you see the problem is were those doctrinal statements

You know what you've got to look at is a is this a did this group have the freedom?

To actually gather together and to create such statements freely or are these doctrinal statements

That are that were produced by others about them based upon Confessions that were derived under torture and things like that.

That's you know various councils would draw up Propositions to condemn heretics and would force them to sign these things well you and I would recognize

That's probably not the best way of actually finding out a fair representation of what someone believed But the question is is the source you're reading using something like that or using a product of one that was defending them

Well, but still at the same time. Where did they get it? I mean there just wasn't that much literary output from those individuals that has survived to our time so that's those are stuff you have to weigh and You know one of the things to remember is is when people start talking about Will show me a pre -reformation

Church you know the question the problem one of the problems. I have when people do that we had somebody in channel Just last night doing that From a different perspective, but when they're they say things like that.

I want to meet we find out what they think true succession back to the Apostles would involve and I have said many many times that the only

Meaningful succession is if you are preaching and teaching the same things that the

Apostles taught any other kind of succession is a succession of genealogy

Succession that the Pharisees claim going back to Moses and I would think if we learn anything from the gospel accounts the

Lord Jesus did not teach us to have respect for that kind of Alleged succession when you when you

Disregard what Moses said don't claim to be Moses's followers And if you disregard what the

Apostles said don't claim to be the Apostles followers And so I like to find out why people are concerned about it first And then if they've got a proper reason for it.

You know then we can look at what happened when Innocent the third sent papal armies that murdered innocent

Women and children by herding them into a cave and lighting up a bonfire at the at the entrance sucked all the oxygen out

So they all died and then to seal it up and and that kind of stuff Who were these people and why would

Rome have wanted to murder them if they were not believing things that Rome felt were was?

Contrary to her beliefs does that mean all of them were Orthodox? No of course not But does that mean that there were no people that believed?

In a in a simple way the message of the gospel outside of all the accretions of Rome of course not

James is this the same situation because the Coptic Church as far as I know

I have been accused of teaching the monophysite heresy mm -hmm, and I spoke with a

Coptic Man well young man that I spoke to at work, but he no longer works with me in and out and His father was a

Coptic priest Mm -hmm, and I was very fascinated because I had heard the name Coptic, but I don't to this day

I really don't know much about them I know that they're very liturgical much like you know Greek Orthodox and so forth and I don't know much about Greek Orthodox either

But the thing that he told me that the Coptic Church has a pope that traces their line of succession back to the st.

Mark and he says that they were accused falsely of holding to the monophysite heresy

And that was never true is this the same situation as we have with the Albigensian well. No because these folks are still around to defend themselves and have at least some element of a of a

Documentary history most of these other groups Just simply never had that type of opportunity to be able to engage in self -definition as to you know

I've certainly been taught that the Coptic Church openly holds to a

Position of defending monophysitism, but it's interesting that someone would say no obviously they probably want to define it differently, but No, I wouldn't say it's necessarily parallel because as I said they

They can defend themselves are still around to do so unlike the other groups that in essence we can only derive their beliefs from what their enemies said and from Fragmentary other things that come from various sundry sources and I only meant parallel in the sense that we have you know some people saying they were evangelical in the sense that what they believe much of what we believe and Others saying no they were

Gnostic heretics, and we when I look at the Coptic Church I hear from history books saying that they believe the monophysite heresy

And then I speak to a Coptic guy, and he tells me no that was not true So I'm getting the impression that he was probably told told by his

Scholars or church or what have you that no the Church of Rome accused us falsely that was never true

Yeah, well I see I see what you're saying, but but since they're still around That's that's where I think the the difference would break down, but anyways hey

Johnny got to take a break Thanks a lot for your call today. God bless you, and we'll be back on the dividing line eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty

One what is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent

Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom James white replies to dr.

Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded indeed It is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

James white masterfully counters the evidence against so -called Extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the

Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book

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He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord Obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed

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James White provides readers with insight and understanding into the book of Mormon the prophecies visions and teachings of Joseph Smith the

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Well, there are many people who are demonstrating that they are merciful today because they are calling eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one and They are saving all the rest of you who do not realize you're benefiting from their ministry

From hearing Warren and I singing the greatest hits of Elvis However, after we go off the air

I think it is possible that we may get together around the microphone and make those the views those recordings available on the website

Then again, maybe we won't let's go ahead and go back to our phones and mp3.

I Don't think we can even use a filter and mp3 would help that let's tow to Wayne and Lansing, Michigan Wayne deliver us, please from the possibilities of I'm doing just fine

Hey, I know it's I'm not directly related, but you're they to did with father a year ago.

So oh He's I I can guarantee you Johnny has heard every debate

Almost almost Do you still have the 33

RPMs what's that you still have the 33 RPMs? No, these are cassettes. Oh cassettes survived but I As I've been thinking about, you know his ministry

I think about your ministry both of your both of you are involved very heavily in handing out tracks and really being kind of a goal up old a street witness and and that has never really been part of my

Christian walk and I just was wondering if you could Explain to me how you got involved in that how you

Got the conviction that this is this is something that you need to do today I I read a lot of Calvin's commentaries and and I see him talking about standing on street corners

I'm handing out tracks or anything, but And that's not to be critical right? I just want you

I I just need to be Actually, I just want you to give me a little bit of history of how you

That I should be doing yeah, well,

I understand it is obviously a little bit unusual and it's it's not It's not normative to be involved in that kind of that kind of work unfortunately for reformed folks and I'm not generally down in in Phoenix doing that kind of thing.

We got involved with it because Initially this ministry was focused upon first and foremost sharing the gospel with LDS people and Because Mormons are willing to talk and because there were

Opportunities locally out in Mesa and then up in Salt Lake City. We discovered eventually And people would stop and talk.

They'd take the tracks. They'd read them here was an opportunity to reach out to a group that was obviously and still is very much involved in Coming to our front doorstep

But here's how a small group of us could reach a large number of them And so that's what we've been doing and that's how we got started in doing.

This was trying to find opportunities of Sharing with LDS people and sharing things with them that they weren't going to hear at most doorsteps when they went door -to -door

They certainly weren't going to hear from the pulpit of their award Chapel and then I expanded out a little bit When we started dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses We actually held signs outside of district conventions because Jehovah's Witnesses won't take anything from you

They wouldn't be caught dead standing out there talking to you So we had to almost anonymously let them know there were phone numbers

They could call they could listen to messages anonymously and one of the differences I think you know you mentioned well, you know, you've read

Calvin's commentaries and institutes and he didn't do that kind of thing Well, very very different cultural situation

I mean in essence if there had been Mormons in Geneva, they wouldn't have been allowed to stay there

There was everyone in Geneva was a part of the church under that particular situation you have a

You have sacralism a magisterial Reformation where you're you're reforming the state church and we don't have a state church here

And therefore you have all sorts of of different perspectives that are being expressed and so we really live in a post -christian society and So there are opportunities that are given to us since we still have the freedom in the

United States to do so To speak the truth and sometimes when there's large gatherings of people then you have the opportunity of doing that It is interesting to be reformed in doing that because if other people show up They're probably going to disagree with you and distance themselves from you as much as possible.

That certainly happened to us But our real focus is is to minister to a specific group of people who have a

Specific they've been deceived in a specific way that requires Christians to give them specific information that many

Christians aren't prepared to do and so that really is what Motivates us to get to the places that we that we get to up in Salt Lake City or out in Mesa So that we can have those conversations where we can communicate to the

LDS people in a way that they can really understand Well, so you'll certainly hear that stuff doesn't work anymore

I hear that all the time about just plainly preaching the gospel but Shotgun in the sense that When we're out in Mesa, we are passing out tracts to some who are non -mormons,

I suppose But there's still such a high percentage of Mormons out there that And especially of course, it's all

Lake City. It's about 98 % that still you're you're reaching your target audience and Are do we have tracks that are thrown away and things like that?

Of course, we expect that but it's the track that gets stuck in a pocket and isn't found for a couple months that a person gets to read without the

The emotions of the moment those the ones that we've heard from years later where they

We've had people come up to us I I took a track from you because I was angry that you were there and I was

Angry that you were saying what you were saying. So I was going to disprove you So I started looking up your references and lo and behold you were right

Thank you so much for you know for your ministry. Well, is that rare? Yeah, it is.

There's no two ways about it It's it's not that seemed to be a ministry that you did right from the get -go.

Yes Yes. Yes, I was I have pictures of Myself and my wife alone passing out tracks in Salt Lake City and I think that would have been when

I was 20 and she was 19 Yep. Yep so yeah, it's

I Suppose that in in essence it goes back to act 17 and 18 it goes back to Apollos it goes back to Paul Going into the marketplace and in public fashion

Demonstrating from the scriptures to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. I mean there you know, we have an awesome gospel and an awesome message and it's a powerful message and You know, there's there needs to be a balance in it

I think the article we had on the website a while back Dealing with those who we ran into in Salt Lake the last time who were you know?

You know just railing at the Mormons and and just insulting them and things like that, you know, we're not doing that We try to do it in such a way as to adorn the gospel by our behavior

But at the same time, I think that we should be very Open in our proclamation of the gospel and when we get an opportunity to do it do it.

So that's we do. Okay. Well great. I You know, I I didn't doubt. Oh, we do.

Oh, we do. Oh, yeah I remember Keith Green's opening your house and the number one rule was you will be ripped off, you know

Yeah, that's true. But anyways, and I saw your friend Barry Lynn on PBS this week We've I haven't didn't see on PBS but I saw him all over the news because the the

Ninth Circuit Court's Demonstration that yet once again, our judiciary has been taken over by by those who think themselves

Kings philosopher Kings and I'll just mention in passing that I'll get off of it, but it's it's been very disappointing to me

To hear many many many people saying ah God doesn't mean anything specific

The problem is anyone who reads the Federalist Papers or the

Constitution or the Declaration and knows the people are involved with it well knows what

God they were talking about and The reason that people want to get rid of that is because it is a constant reminder

Of the foundation of this this nation and how far we have and I'm not gonna say wandered or strayed but run

Away from that foundation. It's quite true Mm -hmm, that's right

Well, I I we we still have the tapes somewhere we may make them available

I don't know maybe rich can tell me but I did a Program with Tom Likas.

I don't know if you ever heard of him, but he's a sort of a shock jock out of LA now but he was in Phoenix back when

I was well, I had a whole lot more hair and I have now and I was I was on I was on the air with a

Representative of the American Atheists and he the American Atheist representative said yeah,

Rich is telling me we still make that available Brian Lynch was his name and He said right there on the air.

He would get so many this guy was just Buzzsaw like he was so nasty, but right on the air

He said look if you people want to worship your God Then you all should just go out on a desert island someplace and do it

But don't do it in the United States and that's that's what they want. They want an absolutely secular nation where there is absolutely no

Public demonstration of a belief in God and that's exactly what this atheist wanted. It's exactly what he wanted to accomplish he's not going to yet, but they keep trying and You know eventually

Rich says a omen begins converting it to mp3 Yeah, that that was a debate that was just absolutely incredible.

It was a long time ago I think I would debate the issues differently now than I did then but it's certainly entertaining to listen to to listen to the hatred

That this man has for God. So anyways, yes Barry has been bopping around and I'll have to admit there is every time

I see him that thought in the back of my mind Well, there he is there he goes again, but boy when he had the opportunity of demonstrating that his position

Was the cogent and the true one? He didn't do it. So anyways

Well, there you go, just don't run over your foot or something while you're doing

Anyway, thanks a lot. All right. God bless. All righty Okay, we roll on here because many of you desperately want to Make sure that nothing else happens in this particular program.

We talked with Steve in New Jersey. Hey Steve. How are you? Dr. White? I'm doing well.

Good. Thank you for having me on the program. What can I do for you today? Well, I have first of all, I want to say that about a year ago.

I found your website and your writings and they have been Well, the clarity of the way the gospel was presented in the form position is presented have been a bit of to me because it has been very helpful for me in dealing with people and just Representing the gospel in the reform position.

Well, thank you very much Steve. Where if I may ask where are you in New Jersey? I live in a town called Kinnelon, which is near Wayne Okay We met briefly at the

New Hyde Park Baptist Church. Oh, okay. All right at the breakfast I saw you there when I spoke and I will be at the debate on the 11th.

Great. Excellent I'll be back at New Hyde Park the wind last Wednesday that I'm on Long Island, too

So that's I don't even know what I'm speaking on yet, but that's where I'll be Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

Great novel response to first Peter second Peter three nine There's only just if you got this response, how would you react to it?

We know that the how first Peter three Martinine three nine is misused and My normal response is basically the way you've laid it out in the book.

You go to first Peter ones second Peter one who's a written to right and go through and identify the pronouns, right, you know and The response was you know, well, that's true, but Peter knew that he was written to everyone in the church, but he knew that there were those who were saved

So yes, it is comfort to the believer in that God is patient towards them But he's also patient towards the unbeliever because they're all in the same church

So the promise is being made to unbelievers Well, did you see that?

Yeah, that's that's ours It's a twist to say well Peter knew who he was writing to and yes

He's saying that the believers are people of promise and and and it's a comfort to them. But when he says all

Not willing that any should parents that he is writing to believers and unbelievers because he knows there are unbelievers

So we're going to read the letter. Anyways, we're going to be in the church just like there are unbelievers in the visible church today Well here it here's how

I would respond that assuming that As you said this person said yeah, you follow the pronouns and and and you're correct

The problem is that if you follow the pronouns you a have already established from second

Peter one one that this is written to the elect Not to the quote -unquote gathered church with believers and unbelievers

Which some some, you know, the book of Hebrews certainly is that's I'm not it would be very good to acknowledge that there are passages of scripture

That are written in that way However in this particular passage for example second Peter 3 3 know this first of all than in the last days mockers will come with their mocking following after their own lusts and Saying and notice how he puts this in the third person

He's talking about people not in his audience but people that are outside of his audience who are questioning the coming of Christ and then he goes on talks about that and then

When he goes back to addressing who he's talking to he says but do not let this this is verse 8 this one fact escape

Your notice but beloved that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day

So he goes back to addressing The elect and then when he talks about his promise, well, what promise is that?

If it is it is given to those who are not of the elect So I would say it involves some special pleading.

It doesn't really follow the context very well and really it would demonstrate You know what? I would say to a person at that point is look if this is one of your key passages to try to avoid

Accepting the reality that God has an elect people and that he is perfect in his salvation of them well you you're gonna have to admit that there's no way to read 2nd

Peter 3 9 this way and Prove to me that your point is actually the only way to take this passage.

So let's go to the clearer passages Let's go the passages They're specifically talking about whether Christ saves perfectly or whether he does not whether he tries or whether he fails, etc, etc

Let's go to the clear passages rather than going to these passages that might in your mind Make a statement in a in an ancillary fashion but not actually address the issue that's at hand and really

I think one of the reasons that many of us struggle in dealing with these issues than evangelicalism today is that I Think I'm not being unfair to say that most evangelicals have never had lesson number one in doing the exegesis of the text of Scripture and So definitely yeah,

I I think mandatory reading for for for Evangelical Christian should be your chapter in your book on camping one on just on on on basic hermeneutics right context

So I mean that that the two chapters I got out of that book which I found very good was the one on Just the doctrine of the church right as well as the one on the on how to execute

Scripture based on context I mean those those If you read those two chapters,

I think they would they would they would gain a lot the other chapters required the taking of Tylenol Believe and if you and if you think is rough for you to read them you should have sat here and typed them all out

Well, I should say I should say I need to because I mean let me scroll down here and see if he's lurking in channel

No, he's not in there, but he may listen to it later on one of our faithful folks and channel MDH He's the one who listened to the entire phone call

From Chris Arnzen to Harold camping and he typed it all out And I would just like to say everyone who knows who

MDH is Please do not mention Harold camping to him because to this very day from having done that he begins to shake

When you mention his name, it's it's really sad to see but just try to avoid mentioning anything about it But I should say everything else

I did I did all sat there listened listened and typed it all out But he did do that. So I should thank him for doing that But anyways,

I understand hopefully let me get back to my point You're you you're hearing what I'm saying And that is much of our struggle is that we're dealing with folks not really on an exegetical basis

We're trying to teach them what exegesis is in the first place first place and that really makes it a a double

It's sort of like trying to teach people Greek when they don't know English It's a most folks really struggle at that point and that's what we're doing in the same situation here

And you're also dealing with the fact that they come to the scripture with certain traditional Words, oh, yeah big time.

Oh, yeah, and yet as Dave Hunt says he has no traditions and Yeah, you know exactly what

I'm talking about and it really does require of us to go the extra mile and I'll be honest with you sometimes

I You know it's like when someone comes in and they quote one of the Many many many verses that we have to deal with over and over and over again

Sometimes the the getting weary and well -doing kicks in and especially for me the the temptation is

Look, I just wrote a whole book about the thing. Go read it. You know, I just The 14th time you've done it in the past week just makes you feel somewhat frustrated

But we have to realize if we're going to get through to a lot of these folks That's what we that's we have to do and we need to pray for patience because pray for patience.

Oh, yeah Patience and grace. Yeah, you know It's it's a battle and it's

But it's also a worthwhile one. I find the more I get into these things the better. I understand. Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah Believe me. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I have been part of a Bible study down in the Wall Street area for Close to 20 years.

We had anybody walking you name it makers the billions everything coming in from time to time so you had to be on your toes, but one of the issues that we're dealing we deal with And it's on you know, the authority of Scripture versus the authority of being led by the

Spirit Issue and I've I found the writings on the on the authority of Scripture with the

Roman Catholic Church very helpful Yeah, but nothing that deals specifically with transitioning when you know when

Spirit leads or revelation There is a lot of stuff out there. Actually, it's just not one of the major areas that that I deal with I'm very much a specialist when it comes to things like that.

There are some excellent works and I do actually intend When I start the the book that I'm gonna be writing on solo scriptura for Bethany house.

I do intend to Address issues like that. It's not going to be

Specifically aimed toward Roman Catholicism. It will deal with that but I'm going to go well beyond that to the aspect of The sufficiency of Scripture in the believers life and the issue of you know

What about people who say well the Lord spoke to me and said or the Spirit led me to do this out of the other thing?

What is the Spirit's ministry? What's the relationship the Spirit to the word? Those are very very important things.

There is a book that does address that Published by banner of truth called the sufficiency of Scripture I'm not sure if you've seen that We were doing

We were going on in the Psalms Where I was leading a group and it was psalms 119,

I think 33 to 40 that that section where it talks about the ordinance of God the law of God as commands of God and That's all of one.

That's all of someone. Yeah, but And I sort of juxtapose that to what

Paul knowing purposely who my audience Mm -hmm what Paul said in Romans 7 and we just took a few of the things where he said the

Lord's good the Lord's spiritual And because you're getting to this thing where we live we don't live by the law with the by the

Spirit, right? And I thought you know, I said if you want to live by the Spirit try obeying the law Spiritual and yeah, well,

I mean if you're having trouble living by the Spirit just try it You know try following the Ten Commandments and you might make some progress well not only that you can you can take folks directly to the

The New Testament and you can listen to John who talks all about The Holy Spirit of God likewise saying that all sin is lawlessness

It the issue of the the nature of the law and As as Reformed theology puts it that second use of the law is

I think very important It actually came out in my recent book on homosexuality. In fact and Really one of the questions

I would ask many of my even good friends Who take a different view on this is if the psalmist who wrote psalm 119?

Was in dwelt by the Holy Spirit of God was a regenerate believer How could he rejoice in the law of God if in point of fact

I no longer can That I do not understand but there are there are those

Theologies today that would say that we can no longer rejoice In what rejoiced the heart of David or the psalmist in Psalm 119 and I have a hard time with that because I think what you know, some might say well

You can't rejoice in the ceremonial aspects of it because I was pointing to Christ. Well, I I'm very glad that God pointed to Christ and I have the fulfillment of that But I think it's very clear that the psalmist definitely did rejoice in the moral aspects of the law

And does that not mean that I too? Would rejoice in that it how can

I think of what my Savior did on Calvary? If I do not know what sin is and does that is that not what the moral law shows me is what sin is?

Am I not rejoicing that my Savior lived that law perfectly in my place

Can I not rejoice in that and does that law then not give me light as to know what is pleasing to God?

Do I not desire to be pleasing to God and so? There's there's all sorts of issues there.

That's that I've sort of avoided getting into on the program. I Sometimes touch on them, but you're exactly right

That's it's a beautiful passage and as you can tell from the sound the background we are out of time for today

Thank you very much for your call. Keep serving the Lord there in New Jersey All right. Yeah, you think he's gone. Thank you very much for listening today

I would like to say that I am NOT taking it personally as I said the fact that you all called in today just to keep

Warren and I from singing because You all don't know we may really be good.

Then again, we may be really bad. I don't know What's that? You're hurt Warren's hurt, but he will get over it.

I promise you anyways, I think I'm gone next week, aren't I? Yeah, I think I am well tune in and listen to what in the world's going on anyways, because it'll always be interesting

And thanks for listening to the dividing line today. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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