April 26, 2016 Show with Steve Kreloff on “A Critique of the Messianic Jewish Movement From the Perspective of a Jewish Christian” PLUS Jesse Barrington on “Fearing God More Than Man”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on

this 26th day of April 2017, and it's been quite some time since I have

interviewed my guest today, Steve Kreloff, and I'm looking forward to it.

He's an author and he's also the pastor of Lakeside Community Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

We're discussing something that is a very controversial issue today, an issue that may

offend some, perhaps even many in our audience, and that is not our intention to

unnecessarily offend anyone, but sometimes the truth is offensive,

especially if it rubs against or contradicts our traditions.

But today we are going to be discussing a critique of the Messianic Jewish movement

from the perspective of a Jewish Christian, and that Jewish Christian happens to be our guest,

Steve Kreloff, who, as I said, is pastor of Lakeside Community Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence to Iron Sharpens Iron,

Pastor Steve Kreloff.

Well, thank you, Chris.

It's good to be back with you.

Thanks for inviting me.

And before we even get into your testimony of how you came to

embrace Christ as your Messiah, I would like to hear a bit about

the Lakeside Community.

Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

Well, thanks.

Lakeside is a Bible -believing, Bible -teaching church, non -denominational, independent.

I've been pastoring here for this May will be 35, no, actually 36 years

this May, and it is the church that I actually started attending shortly

after I came to faith in Christ.

It is the church that nurtured me when I was a university student and has nurtured my family,

my children, now my grandchildren.

It's a church that it's to be a part of.

I love Lakeside.

It's been my life, and these are good days.

We praise the Lord for.

His blessings.

Praise God.

And by the way, I want to let our listeners know that Pastor Steve Kreloff is on with us for the

first hour only.

For the second hour, you want to stay tuned to Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is pastor of

Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and he is going to be telling us about a conference where he is

speaking.

That is the New England Conference, New England Fellowship, or

should I say Fellowship Conference New England is what it's called, Fellowship Conference New England in Maine,

and you're going to want to hear more about that.

Also, our theme for the second hour is going to be fearing God more

than man.

In fact, that does have something to do with even our first hour, because you have a lot of

people who are too afraid to bring up a biblical critique

of someone's preciously held, cherished, and cherished beliefs

when they fear that they may gain that person as an enemy or ruin a friendship,

or just because they don't want to hear any kind of backlash verbally or otherwise

from that person.

But we need to be more concerned with what offends God than what offends

men.

But tell us something about, Pastor Cree Loft, tell us something about your own

personal background, the religion of your youth.

I understand that there are many varieties of people who are part of an

ethnically Jewish home.

Some are religious, some are atheistic or agnostic, some are orthodox,

some are of a much more liberal bent, reformed Jewish community.

But.

Tell us something about your upbringing.

Yeah, well, I went...

Where in New York?

I'm sorry.

In Brooklyn.

Brooklyn, okay.

Brooklyn, New York, yes.

My parents are both Jewish, my grandparents were Jewish.

My grandparents all came from Russia.

On my dad's side of the family, they were orthodox.

And in their environment, my dad sort of rejected the

orthodoxy of his upbringing, although he still clung to Judaism

in a super sense, as

one who embraced the culture, the family warmth

of being Jewish.

And my testimony is that I always believed that there was a God,

that God existed, but I never saw his relevancy in

my life.

I never saw how he would be relevant.

And when I was about 12, 13 years old, three of my grandparents died within a very

short period of time, very close to each other, within a year.

And that really threw me.

It threw me about death.

Where did they go?

What happens once you die?

And then I realized it wasn't it's not only old people who die, but I'm going to die someday.

What's going to happen to me?

And that sort of, Chris, just sent me on a course of great fears.

I entered my teenage years of great fear of death.

And then actually, from that, I saw that my life was empty.

I had no peace, no joy, no love in my heart for anybody but myself.

And I went through my teenage years like that.

I really delved into sports a lot.

It was sort of my way of escaping the harsh realities of life

and my own inability to come up with answers.

And so I got very involved in sports, and especially the love of baseball.

And when my family moved down from New York, we moved to the,

to Florida, first to the Miami area, and then I went to school at the University of South Florida in

Tampa, Florida.

And it was there that the Lord sent a young man who had recently come to faith in Christ just to witness to me.

He started just sharing with me about Christ, and I didn't want to hear about

Jesus.

I just wasn't interested.

So what I decided is the Bible.

I never owned a Bible in my life.

I decided to purchase one, and I would, my goal was to read through the New Testament so that I could tell

my friend, show him all the, what I thought were contradictions and errors in the Bible, and

then justify my unbelief by telling him, this is why I don't believe in your Jesus.

But lo and behold, as I was reading the New Testament, I think it would have been the Gospel of Matthew,

looking back.

I first became very impressed with Christ as I interacted

with my friends and other believers.

More than, I

carried about six months

of me of how I

came to faith

in Christ.

And tell me something about the reaction.

To that by your family, and an update on how they are looking upon you

today, and so on.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, to tell my,

my family, and my, the reactions of,

found

out he

was,

didn't, I only have one, one, it was not an

easy time for me.

Praise God.

Yeah, she,

wow,

dying of

lung cancer, and I

flew

to thing, and then

my dad passed,

can only,

he wasn't able, me

at the end, so I, I don't know, but he certainly had opportunities.

Son and I shared with him the

about,

I'm, I'm

actually, what I, what I see, I believe

is, I'm really not close to the black.

Sheep of the family.

Is that, is that specifically because of your coming to Christ?

I think so.

I think so.

No one's made a great effort to, to get to know me well.

Maybe that would have been the case.

Yeah, yeah.

In fact, yeah, go ahead, I'm

sorry.

They were very close.

My, my brother.

And I are very close.

Yes, it is, it is quite an interesting

phenomena that you will have a Jewish family on occasion, and I'm not

broad -brushing here, obviously, as I even opened up the program.

There are many varieties of Jewish households in regard to faith and

lack thereof, but I know a friend who is currently living in Florida,

used to be from Long Island, and he, at one time,

a Jewish man from a Jewish family, and at one time

before coming to Christ, he was a male stripper,

and his Jewish family, which was not very religious, they were much like the

Jewish version of the Christians that only go to church on Christmas and Easter,

and have, you know, perhaps also, of course, at weddings, funerals,

communion services for the children, and stuff like that.

But the, he, his family

only tipped their hat to Jewish tradition on Passover and things like that, Hanukkah,

but they had no problem with him being a male stripper.

He became a Christian.

They, and especially his mother, was so furious they sat shiva for him.

They wrote him, they wrote him off as a dead man, had nothing to do with him.

I don't know if there's been any development on that, but this had gone on for 20 years.

It had gone on for about 20 years when I first met him.

Yeah.

And his mother, at a funeral, when they showed up at a funeral of a fellow family member, his mother

physically attacked his Gentile wife in the funeral parlor.

Had to be.

Physically pulled off of her.

Right.

And you know, part of that, part of that is this great misunderstanding that he

had part of this

people and

to embrace

this

into

the centuries in

the name of Jesus Christ,

but it's not,

not true born again believers.

And so why they would react this way and their

hostility, of course, man by his nature is hostile towards God, whether he's Jewish or, or Gentile.

But I can, I can understand denounce him

because they think.

That.

I ask of you

all to pray for Steve.

His name is also Steve.

That his family might be reunited with him.

And even more so that they might come to the Christ, obviously infinitely more so that they would come to

Christ.

Okay.

And want me to pray now on the air?

No, we could do that off the air because we have limited time here, obviously for you to be on the show.

Now you are a Jewish believer.

You are a, not only a Christian, but a pastor.

And yet you may surprise many because you

have a discomfort and I'll have you explain that in your own wording

in a fuller description, but you have a discomfort with the

Messianic Jewish movement, which of course is also not monolithic.

You have all different kinds of people who would use the label Messianic Jewish all the way

from the minority of people that may theologically agree with you and I on most

things all the way over on the other side of the spectrum to Aryans who would

reject the deity of Christ and the Trinity and so on.

And, and some of them, unfortunately are under the radar, if you

will, of naive Christians who think that they are brothers and sisters in

Christ and they're really just pushing Aryanism.

The radio station that I used to work for in New York, I worked there for 15 years and

they had a program on there nearly as long as I worked there that was hosted

by a Messianic Rabbi.

And then when it became very obvious this man was theologically Aryan, he did not believe in the deity of

Christ, believed only that Jesus was a Messiah or the Messiah, but not God,

he eventually was forced to pull his program off the air,

or we pulled his program off the air, or should I say the authorities of the radio station pulled this program off the air

because of the fact that the letters of complaints were pouring in and the phone calls from

Christians who picked up on his his being really opposed to

historic Christianity.

But even if you want to include in the mix those, as I said

earlier, who are biblically Orthodox, you still have a problem with

much of that which is included in Messianic Judaism.

And if you could explain in.

Your own words why.

Yeah, I can.

Yeah, I think you're very wise in pointing out that Messianic Judaism comes in a variety

of flavors, so we have to define our terms.

For example, Christian Jewish people in Israel would be called

Messianics, and I have no problem with that, but what we're talking about is within our country, the

United States, a movement that started a number of years ago by Jewish people who, and I think they

had a good motivation at least, their motivation was to try

to help be assimilated into the faith.

Maybe that's not the best term, assimilated, but just sort of as they came to

faith in Christ, just have an understanding of the Jewish flavor of the faith, and just sort of help

them make adjustments to being believers.

But what has happened, it has evolved into a whole movement that has some serious problems,

and here are my problems with it when you say I'm not comfortable with it.

That's right, I'm not comfortable with it because I think there are some violations of the

problem, and

this is not one that every Messianic synagogue, every Messianic Jewish group

embraces, but enough do that we need to speak about it, is the error of

rejecting the doctrine of justification by faith.

What Messianic Judaism does is implement laws,

ceremonies, like keeping the feasts,

keeping kosher

would be one.

You must do that, but you're

also

there to

be accursed.

It's really rejecting.

I'm not saying

that ever

enough holds it.

I'm not

comfortable

where

it threatens.

He emphasizes that the body of Christ, the body of Messiah, the true Gentiles.

So I don't believe the Church should be Gentile.

I don't believe it ought to be Jewish.

I believe it ought to be one where people come

together and their focus is on Christ, not their ethnic heritage.

There's always the danger of ethnic pride in this.

So I just, by its very nature to say something is Messianic and has a Jewish

flavor, I think that violates the New Testament.

I mean, obviously you had to have that at the Church of Jerusalem.

We only had Jewish believers.

But after that, the Church is supposed to be made up of people from all different

ethnic backgrounds.

And so, listen, I'm also opposed to having just an all -black church, or an all -white church, or an

all -Hispanic church, unless there is a language barrier.

Then, for obvious reasons of communication, you have to have an ethnic group, but the next generation,

which of the land ought not to be like that.

So those are two of my big problems.

We share that for whatever it's worth.

Now, obviously, my co -host has something to say, but he'll have them wait just a second.

Obviously, there's a difference between a church or a congregation

that is providentially all -white or black or Asian or

Hispanic, but there's a difference when you design it that way.

Right, right.

Yes, I should have said that.

That's right.

I mean, there are certain churches because of where they're located, but if their

intention is to focus on that one group and to exclude others, or to have... I

think that violates the spirit of the New Testament.

All right, my co -host, who could barely speak, Buzz Taylor, wants to say a word.

Yes, I'll try to speak again.

But now, in these Messianic fellowships, isn't there also...

I realize we already said that they're not monolithic.

There's a great variety of them, but don't they tend to look at some of the Jewish

traditions that they've kept over the years as required

for dietary laws and certain styles of music and things like this?

Yeah, that's the biggest problem when you require something.

You know, I don't have a problem if, let's say, a Jewish believer says, hey, I want to celebrate the

Passover or Hanukkah.

I know I don't need to, but I want to do that, maybe make a statement, maybe a testimony.

I don't have a big problem with that because Paul spoke about a lot of liberty.

There are liberty issues that we have.

Certain things are not right, or at least are not commanded and not prohibited

in Scripture.

People, and sometimes people in Messianic, the Messianic movements and synagogues, many of them

are not Jewish.

They're often Gentiles.

But people within that, when they say this is what God requires, like eating

the dietary laws, I say that's so serious because that

is a disregard for the doctrine of justification

by faith in Christ.

When you add anything to the Gospel, you are adding works.

So I think that's a serious...

Now, if a believer says, I think I should eat a certain way because it's healthier, I don't have a problem

with that.

But when you start getting into God's demands, this requires it, it's legalism, it's condemned in the

New Testament.

So I

took my son

to this

fence, and I

look over

at my son

before the

game started, and I said, well, what are you doing?

And he's looking at his baseball cards.

He said, well, I'm looking at my baseball cards.

And I said, son, what are you looking at the pictures for?

The real guys.

That's pretty funny.

That's really the message of the book of Hebrews.

What are you looking at the pictures for when Messiah has come?

And so I think that's what we have to teach and say.

The New Testament gives us these pictures of Christ, the feasts, the foods,

even the Sabbath, all of that pointed to the Messiah.

He's here.

Don't go... just shadows, they're just

pictures, they're just signs.

One thing that just occurred to me, I'm sure that.

Many of my listeners in Brooklyn are saying, okay, we understand you

giving up a lot of your Jewish background to become a Christian, but did you have to leave the Brooklyn accent behind?

What happened with that?

Hey, listen, I still wait for him.

If I say it, everyone's going to say, hey, that's the normal way.

Coffee.

Well, no, it's the word idea.

Oh, okay.

No, there's no R there.

It should be I.

So, well, I left Brooklyn.

We're going to be going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Steve Kreloff, whether you agree with

him, whether you vehemently disagree with him, or whether you're just not certain, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We hope to hear from you.

In fact, those of you who are already waiting for your questions to be asked and answered, we ask you

to be patient.

We will get to you as soon as possible, God willing, and don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages with Steve Kreloff.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our first guest today for the first hour is Steve Kreloff,

author and pastor of Lakeside Community Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

We are discussing a critique of the Messianic Jewish movement from the perspective of a Jewish Christian,

and that Jewish Christian happens to be our guest.

Steve Kreloff in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen

at gmail .com.

One other question that I have for you, Steve, is that I

know that you are a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, and what seems very

puzzling to me is that those who share our belief in God's sovereignty,

especially when you think of unconditional election, it seems

strange to me that this is a tiny minority of folks

that would share that belief in the Messianic Jewish movement when God's election of the

Jewish people of Israel in the Hebrew scriptures is so clear and such a major

part of the Jewish understanding of how God relates with humanity that

he has a particular people.

It is very bizarre to me that Arminianism by far dominates

Messianic Judaism.

Yeah, it is.

Surprising, and it's perplexing, especially in light of the fact that Romans 9,

10, and 11 and it's all about God being

faithful to keep his word to the Jewish people, and Paul's argument there is that

God has always had an elect remnant, and Romans 9, Paul goes through

that list of it was Isaac and not Esau, it was Jacob and or

Isaac and not Ishmael, I mean, and then it was Jacob and not Esau, and so I agree with you, they

ought to know from the scriptures the fact that God is sovereign in who he elects, because a

nation as a people, the people of God is

based on choice, unconditional election, so I don't know why, I

heard from the Arminians and we

ruined him, so I don't have an answer as

to why that movement would not embrace...

Do you have any, so you don't have any theory as to why the dominant theological

makeup of Messianic Judaism is Arminian?

No, I really don't.

I have not, no one's ever asked me that, and I've not thought that through,

I don't know, perhaps, and I'm only just speculating, perhaps.

Because they emphasize so many other things, they have not thought through or studied theology

like they should.

Have, but that's only my guess, I don't know.

Yes, and obviously it could be that that these specific Messianic groups, or the

majority of them, I should say, have been developed as

a result of the mission outreach by Arminian churches.

Yeah, and maybe their emphasis,.

They've been so emphasizing certain things to the neglect of other things.

I think always in the Christian life, there has to be balance, and part of being balanced is, yes, we ought to be concerned

about evangelism, but we also have to be concerned about growing in our knowledge

of the Word and of the Lord, and that means studying His Word and studying theology, and

just being one as far as what Scripture says, and not

over -emphasizing one doctrine or one emphasis to the neglect of something else.

And let's see, we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, do you think

that the accusations made by Jews and Messianic Jews

against those who are Sovereign Grace -believing Christians, that

we are anti -Semitic in the roots of what we believe,.

Is a valid accusation?

Well, it's hard to answer that, because I don't know the context of that.

Perhaps there are many who

embrace the Five Solas and who would be Reformed in their theology, who would maybe have no

place for Israel prophetically.

I'm not one of those who holds to that.

I would be pre -millennial and holding to the belief

that God has a future plan for Israel, and that in these days,

He's building His Church made up of Jews and Gentiles, but that He

will, upon Israel, and when Paul says in Romans

11, I'm of Christ's return, all the Jewish

people alive, for the most part, will look upon Him whom they've

pierced.

It's hard to answer that question, but perhaps as many in Reformed

thinking have replaced Israel and God

has no early mean, if

someone holds it up that they're anti -Semitic,

but perhaps that's why some in Messianic circles have said that.

Yeah, and.

Obviously the understanding of what an

amillennial or postmillennial or non -dispensational Christian believes may be very clouded

or based upon caricature or what have you, because there are people that I know personally,

and in fact I'm one of them, I'm an amillennialist, I love the Jewish people, I have a passion

for the Jewish people, and regardless as to whether I believe the current

physical nation in the Middle East is a direct fulfillment of specific

biblical prophecy, that I don't believe would warrant the label of anti -Semitic, because

obviously you could have a different theological perspective or eschatological perspective on something and not have a hatred

or bigoted understanding of the Jews or attitude towards.

The Jews.

Yes, I would agree.

100 %.

Just because somebody doesn't hold to the same view of a future plan for Israel doesn't

mean that they're anti -Semitic, and we have to be very careful of.

Making accusations like that.

And my co -host has a comment.

Well I believe I understand a little.

Bit of the source of that question anyway, I'm not sure if there's a direct link or not, but of course

prophecy teaching in evangelicalism is very popular, and years ago, I don't have the

exact...

Al Lindsay?

Yes, he wrote a book called The Road to Holocaust, in which he did make accusations that those that did not

hold to his eschatology were anti -Semitic.

You're right.

Yeah,.

And I think that's wrong.

I think that's a very unfair accusation.

In fact, I know, personally,.

I know Jewish believers who are all millennial and post -millennial.

Really, if you think about.

It, some of the most caustic comments you have against the Jews were made by Christ himself,.

And he was a Jew.

Right, yeah, that does not mean one is anti -Semitic if you say the truth

and deal with people about their sin and unbelief and so forth.

We have to be very careful about.

Those accusations.

And some may be very surprised to hear that Chosen People Ministries, based

in New York City, was founded in the 19th century by a Jewish

man who converted to Christianity or became a believer in Christ through the

evangelistic efforts of Presbyterians in Brooklyn.

So, I mean, you have some of these ministries that people aren't even aware that

they came out of a reformed route.

And, in fact, the current president of Chosen People Ministries, who I've had on this program, Mitch Glazer,

although he is not, I don't think he would use the label reformed, he is a five -point

Calvinist, a thoroughgoing Calvinist, in spite of the fact that he would have a different understanding of eschatology than

I do and a different understanding of the role of Israel.

He is a Calvinist and he is very

happy to explain the history of Chosen People coming out of

the missionary efforts of Presbyterians.

In fact, Mitch Glazer, I don't know if he still is, but for over a decade

was on the membership role of a Presbyterian church in New York.

Very interesting, yeah.

We, I have a question for you that is, it's from a new listener and it's not really,

according to, or it's not really about the subject that we are discussing, but perhaps since you are

a pastor you can answer it anyway, especially since this man is a first -time listener or at least

a first -time questioner.

He says, my name is John from New York.

I'm currently a member of an Assemblies of God church and while the pastor is faithful and tries his best to

pastor the church, I find myself at odds with the doctrines of the Assemblies of God.

As of last year, around October of 2016, I affirmed the doctrines of grace as

biblical and started to disagree with the distinctives of the Assemblies of God denomination and

Pentecostalism as a movement, both of which the pastor holds to as per his

training and tradition.

Stuff like continuationism or continuism of the sign gifts,

the over -focus on healing rather than endurance, the Arminian theology are consistent hang -ups.

Moreover, I disagree with the direction the church is going, being a little too seeker -sensitive and

sacrificing the truth of the Bible in tiny steps.

In general, I find myself moving toward the Reformed Baptist tradition, but that is a separate thing I'm

working on.

Anyway, do you have any advice on how to break it to my pastor that

I no longer affirm the Assemblies of God traditions?

It seems like a hard thing to tell him by any account and I want to do it in the most God -honoring and.

Wise way.

Yes, well, and I appreciate that.

John, if you're listening, I appreciate that.

I think we have to affirm that those who embrace Jesus Christ

as Savior and Lord, they're our brothers, so I would never put your

pastor in the way of being in a

teaching, even though we wouldn't agree with them on many

doctrines, but still, by faith alone, in Christ alone, they're our

brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think you would be wise, it sounds like you are moving away from the church.

I think you're wise to do that if you have come to settled convictions, as it sounds like you have, in a more

Reformed way in that church.

You shouldn't be divisive.

You can't really support the church financially or in any other way.

So I think my advice would be to certainly spend time in prayer, asking the Lord to

give you wisdom and the right words, and then make

an appointment to

set him right.

You're

not going

to do

that.

Reverend Buzz Taylor, you have a thought?

Yes, I find it interesting that that question does come up, because it was while I was in the Assemblies of God that

I was going Reformed myself, and I used to share my beliefs with the pastor.

I mean, of course, he was a good friend of mine also, and I just started sharing them about election and things, and I

had him scratching his head a lot of times, you know, trying to answer me, but the relationship was

good, but then when he finally left the church, I figured that was a good time for me to also

exit, and I started going to a Reformed church then, but it's interesting, because I was in that exact.

Same position.

Well, it's interesting, Buzz, maybe you should rethink leaving the Pentecostal church, because it seems like your voice is healing.

Right, yes, yes.

It may interest our listener, John, to know also that I have

a very dear friend who departed this earth about a year and a half to two years

ago.

He was in a car accident and went home to glory in an instant.

His name was Al Stein, and he was the pastor of the Neighborhood

Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island, New York, and Al Stein,

when I first met him, was an Arminian Assemblies of God pastor, and years later,

during our friendship, he gradually came to the point where he was a full -blown five -point Calvinist, remained the

pastor of the Assembly of God there, and basically, for some reason,

the denomination accepted his explanation

about whether or not you could lose your salvation, because obviously that seems to be one of the primary

things that they insist you believe.

And he said that he believed in evidential security,

not eternal security, in the sense that

many people use that term where you could live like the devil your whole life after

some kind of a conversion experience, after walking up an aisle, which the Assemblies of God opposes, and

so did the Reformed Baptists, for that matter.

But he said, if you are to have any confidence in your security, you are going to be bearing

evidence.

As Jesus said, if you're a good tree, you're going to be bearing good fruit.

So he remained a Calvinist until he went home to glory.

In fact, I'm sure he is still now, but he was a dear, dear friend.

I interviewed him many times on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and perhaps one of these days, I will have more of

his interviews posted from the past, posted on the current

Iron Sharpens Iron website.

But thank you very much, John, for listening and submitting your question.

I have Linda in Hilltop Lake, Texas, who says, what a blessing to listen to your guests

every day.

Has Pastor Krilof ever been to the land of Israel, and if so, what are his thoughts and observations of his

trip?

Oh, that's a great question.

I have been to Israel, I believe it's eight times, and I'm going back again at the end of

October, leading a tour.

I've been there on the traditional 10 -day tours.

I've also, my wife and I have spent three weeks with students from the Masters College.

That was about, I think, about 11 years ago.

I love Israel.

I love the land.

I love the people.

Of course, when you're on a tour like that, you're not really interacting so much with the people

there, except if you go in stores and things like that.

So I haven't had much experience there.

I do have a dear friend, Menno Kalischer, who pastors a church in Jerusalem.

I love Israel.

It is a, at this point in time, a secular state.

But there are a number of, and I'm

not sure what else to say about it, I think that every Christian, if they can afford to go,

should go to Israel.

It's like going to Bible, a 10 -day tour is like being in Bible college for a

year.

I would say it's like two years of Bible college in the sense of learning the geography, the history,

so many of the biblical events come to life when you've been there.

So, for example, if I'm preaching about Jesus and his ministry in Capernaum, in my

mind, I'm picturing what Capernaum looks like.

They've sort of reconstructed it a bit, the synagogue at least stands

in terms of...

Anyway, I think the Bible comes alive, and it helped me to put so many things together, and

really helped my own Bible teaching, my own preaching, my own understanding.

And I think also going to Israel gives you great

people.

One of the things that we always put on our tours is to go to Yad Vashem, that's the

museum of the Holocaust, of the Holocaust victims, and regardless of what we

might hold to concerning the future for Israel, to see how they've been treated in the past is

important to understand the Jewish people, to understand the

hostility against them, to

understand

them.

So

anyway,

I'm

not...

And I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for Lakeside Community Chapel, it's lakesidechapel

.com, lakesidechapel .com.

If you could close our program with about a minute or so of a summary of what you most

want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

Today.

Well, the program has been on Mishom in

my thoughts as a Jewish believer on it, but one thing I didn't emphasize, and I want to, is

that I believe regardless of what our denomination is, our background is, if we're a believer in Christ,

really, the most important thing is to, in terms of reclaimed, this is

why the emphasis on my ministry is

verse by verse, extra line upon line.

I think that's the way God can do that, and if we would

be in place...

And we're out of time, and I look forward to having you back, brother,

and please keep in touch so we can schedule another interview with you.

Thank you, Chris.

And coming up next is our interview with Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

If anybody would like to join us on the air on the theme of fearing God more than man,

give us an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsin, if you just tuned us in.

Our second guest today for the remaining hour of the program is

Pastor Jesse Barrington, and Pastor Jesse Barrington is the pastor of Grace

Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

He's also going to be speaking at an upcoming conference called the Fellowship Conference New England.

That's going to be held in Maine, and we are going to talk a little bit more about that as well.

Our main theme today is going to be Fearing God More Than Man, and it's my honor and privilege

to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Pastor Jesse Barrington.

Thank you so much, Chris.

It's a privilege to be here.

And in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello.

And as you can tell from his voice, he is nearly dead right now.

But Pastor Jesse, I'd like you to let our listeners know something about

the church.

Where you

pastor.

Ten years by God's grace,

mother of godly men in the

area, congregating on Sunday morning

back in 2006, a true

blessing for us.

We hold to the New Hampshire Confession of 1833.

Yes, tell us, I know that I used to have a friend, or I still have him as a friend, I just haven't

spoken with him in quite a while, Pastor John Thornberry, a Reformed Baptist pastor

who was at one time pastoring and pastored for many years the Winfield Baptist

Church in Winfield, Pennsylvania.

And his church adhered to the New Hampshire Confession, unlike most Reformed Baptists

who adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Is there any significant difference or any difference at all that you care to comment on?

No,

they're a

little bit crisp.

Yeah, would that be

the Grace

Life of

Shoals, Alabama?

Great.

Yes, and Iron Trip and Zion Radio is delighted to be on Grace Life

Radio in Lake City, Florida, which is the radio ministry of Grace Life Church in Lake

City, Florida.

So we're very happy that several months ago they added us in a pre -recorded version to their

morning drive lineup and to their 8 to 10 p .m. slot as well every day.

Well, we have a very important theme that we are addressing today.

The theme is fearing God more than man, and that seems to be something that very

few Christians do with consistency, a little part of the fact that we

are still sinners while we're on this earth.

Before we go into that, however, I want to make sure that our listeners know about the conference where you're speaking, Fellowship

Conference New England, which is going to be held this

August, and the exact dates are August 3rd through the 5th

in Portland, Maine, the stomping ground of my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, who used to

be a guest today,

Pastor Jesse Barrington, but also Pastor Don Curran, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who's been a guest on

Iron Trump and Zion Radio many times, and Pastor Nick or Nate Pickowitz, I hope I'm

pronouncing his name correctly.

You did, correct.

And one of the things that makes the Fellowship Conference New England set apart from other

conferences is that they purposely do not ever have a main theme.

They allow the speakers to preach freely on subjects that happen to be burning upon their hearts

during that time providentially that they're at the conference.

Have you come up with a specific topic of your own this year yet, or is that still.

In the

blueprint stage?

Four years, and I'm

praying

about

it already.

Well, if anybody would be interested in attending that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

I also ask my listening audience to pray that my brother John,

who is my oldest brother, who lives 10 minutes away from the aforementioned

Pastor Mac Tomlinson, my brother lives in Justin and

Mac lives in Denton, if you could pray that my brother

finally agrees to meet with Mac and visits his church and so on.

My brother does not share my theological views right now anyway.

I have great hope that one day he may, and I pray that's very soon, but if you

could pray for my brother, I would appreciate it, and also pray for his health.

But this question that we have today, do you

fear God more than man, is something that we all need to examine our own hearts

when considering whether or not we are, number one, truly children

of God, and number two, if we are being faithful disciples of Jesus Christ.

This is not an easy thing to do, obviously, as many things that are the

duty of a Christian are not easy, but if you could explain why this is such an

important issue with you, and I understand that you preached on this issue providentially not long ago.

Yes, I did.

I think it's an important issue.

Because really we're dealing with the glory of God, which is why the universe was created.

I'm working through the gospel of John right now in my preaching, and I'm

just finishing up chapter five, and in John chapter five, Jesus is meeting with some of the

Jews there and talking with them.

He has just healed the lame man at the pool.

They've taken offense to this because he healed him on the Sabbath, and Jesus tells them that as he's working, his

father was working, making his work, one in the same with the father.

They are persecuting him and now wanting to kill him because he claims God being

his father, therefore making himself equal with God, and Jesus does not deny those

statements.

Rather, he affirms them through giving testimony for a great majority of the chapter there,

confirming those statements that he made about his people in the same, and he

gets down to the end of chapter five, and he talks about why these people will not come to him,

and he makes many exclusive statements that they don't know the father, and the evidence is because they don't know

the father because they reject the son, and he says, you refuse to come to me that you may have

life, and he points out there that that's an issue of their heart.

It's an issue of the will.

We already mentioned that back in John chapter three, and he says, men love darkness rather than light, so they refuse to come to the

light, and in verse 41, Jesus says, this

idea of receiving glory,

really we're getting to the heart of it.

You know, I couldn't help but think of this issue the other day when I was watching

Fox News, and one of my favorite talk hosts was on

the air, the programs that I like the most out of the entire Fox lineup,

and that host happens to be Tucker Carlson.

Now, Tucker Carlson, I'm not really sure where Tucker Carlson stands with the Lord.

I know that he is a member of an Episcopal church.

I have no idea whether it's a conservative one or an apostate one, but

Tucker Carlson normally is very bold and very skilled

and very aggressive when debating people on the air who disagree with

his conservative ideology in any area.

He, debating Tucker Carlson is very much like walking into a buzzsaw

or a chainsaw.

I would love to see a full -length two to three -hour debate between him and someone

who opposes his views, very much reminiscent of my friend Dr.

James R. White, who is a theological debater and apologist and probably the

most gifted one that I've ever witnessed anywhere, but it really greatly

saddened me when I saw Tucker Carlson interviewing Bruce Jenner, and I am

not going to call Bruce Jenner Caitlyn Jenner, no matter how he or the others who support

his transgenderism may insist upon that, and Tucker Carlson

all of a sudden morphed into a little girl, speaking of

transgenderism, throwing softballs to Bruce Jenner, and it

was very obvious to me immediately that this man fears losing his job, which is an

obvious or understandable thing.

I mean, most people, especially if they have careers that they love and they're making quite a

wonderful income, they're going to fear losing their job, but it was obvious to me that his fear

overrode what he believed, and we as Christians, I know,

and I know it's already happening across the world and across this country, where Christians

are compromising what they believe in regard to this specific issue of transgenderism or

homosexuality or any of those words and labels that come underneath the umbrella that they use,

LBGTQ, and maybe there's even more letters in there that I'm missing, but isn't this

something that we as the Church of Jesus Christ, we have to be prepared

to stand up for what the Bible teaches about sexuality, what God commands about

sexuality, regardless of the outcome, and it's not only first and foremost,

obviously, to honor God and obey God, but secondly, and very importantly,

nonetheless, it's for the having compassion over the never -dying souls of men who are involved

in damning activities, and in fact, the Bible not only says that those who

are involved in homosexual activity unrepentantly are damned, those who give them hearty approval

are.

So if you could comment on that.

Exactly.

In fact, when you.

Mentioned that, I was thinking of Romans chapter 1 in my mind as well, that not only those who practice such things, but those who

give an approval of it will face the judgment as well, and then my mind also went to

Ephesians chapter 5.

He's dealing with the topic of sexual morality, and this is a text where Paul

stands up to the Church and says to them that not only are we not to have

anything to do with these things, but we're to expose the darkness, and that calls us to a

state of action, not silence.

So it's not only that we don't agree with it, but we don't sit in silence in

regards to what's being done, and you could point this to the area of abortion or

homosexuality, all of the sins of American people that we as

Christians are not only asked not to say, and we

need to be a people who fear God and not fear men,

and I think one of the things that will help us do that, Chris, is to keep in mind something else Jesus

taught in John chapter 5, that there's only one that we will get.

Jesus says that the Father has given him authority, and I know that united to

Christ through faith, that we will not face the judgment he's speaking of here.

It is not our own

to have been called by the Lord to get up and proclaim these

truths, help our people see that we need to be a people who

stand up.

By the way,.

To make a quick disclaimer, although I am confident Tucker Carlson believes that

it is morally wrong to have any kind of transgender

transformation, whether through drugs or surgery, I'm not 100 sure of that, but I know for certain that he

opposes the groupthink that he claims he opposes even in his

opening or closing announcements that he is a champion against groupthink,

and one of the biggest ways that people succumb to groupthink today is to, out of

fear of retribution by the gay leftist totalitarianism that surrounds us,

that we all shake our heads in an approving fashion and

smile and celebrate homosexuality in all of its forms because we don't want

to be condemned by others, and we don't want to lose our jobs and all kinds of things.

And so that's the key way that I know Tucker Carlson was not the Tucker

Carlson we have been used to.

He was very skillful and aggressive when debating his opponents.

In fact, I know that he would be opposed to the United States Olympic Committee

apparently being unconcerned that there are men entering into women's athletic

competitions and winning because they just think that they're women.

They're being allowed to participate in these things.

But I'm going to go to our final break right now just because I don't want to interrupt you mid -sentence.

This will be the last break of the day, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Jesse Barrington

regarding fearing God more than man, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And you know what I'm to read you the same question

that I read from a listener to our first guest because I think it

actually applies to a degree to what we were talking about.

I have a listener, John in New York, and I'll read you the question and then you can

answer it when we return.

This will give you some time to think about it.

Now I'll also email you the question, Jesse, so you have it right in front of you.

He says my name is John from New York.

This is a little bit of a sensitive issue, so if you could keep my location out of it except it

being New York.

I'm currently a member of an Assemblies of God church, and while the pastor is faithful and tries his best to

pastor the church, I find myself at odds with the doctrines of the Assemblies of God.

As of last year, around October 2016, I affirmed the doctrines of grace as biblical and

started to disagree with the distinctives of the Assemblies of God denomination and Pentecostalism as a movement,

both of which the pastor holds to as per his training and tradition.

Stuff like continuationism of the sign gifts, the over -focus on

healing rather than endurance, and the Arminian theology are consistent hang -ups.

Moreover, I disagree with the direction the church is going, being a little too seeker -sensitive and sacrificing the truth

of the Bible in tiny steps.

In general, I find myself moving toward the Reformed Baptist tradition, but that is a separate thing I'm working on.

Anyway, do you have any advice on how to break it to my pastor that I no longer affirm the Assemblies of

God traditions?

It seems like a hard thing to tell him by any account, and I want to do it in the most God

-honoring and wise way.

Thank you, John.

So I'm going to now send this.

I'm going to email this to you, Jesse, this question, so you have it right in front of you, and

we will have your answer to this when we return.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And of course, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Don't go away.

We are going to be back after these messages with more of Jesse Barrington

and our subject at hand, Fearing God More Than Man.

Do not go away.

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Chris.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Orens.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the second half of today's program, with about a little less

than a half hour to go, is Pastor Jesse Barrington.

He is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

Our theme has been and will continue to be fearing God more than man.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com.

Chrisorensen at gmail .com.

And before the break, Jesse, as you know, I emailed you and I read to you

the question of a listener in New York, John, who wants to break the

news to his Assemblies of God pastor that he has to leave or he wants to leave because of the

incompatibility of what he has come to believe and embrace as truth, the doctrines of

sovereign grace and cessationism in regard to the sign gifts.

And he wants to do it in a correct and appropriate way.

I thought that our first guest gave a very good answer.

But the question actually lends itself to be more compatible with our topic

right now.

So I figured I'd ask you that question as well.

And I just

took a look on how

to handle Doc

talked about what he called spiritual triage.

And if you have a kind of, and what he mentioned in

there is organized

with

something that we need to do

the and think about, okay, which of these do I need to divide over?

And which of these do I become warning

on that side?

But one warning on that is this, once you begin going down,

and we all like to be with people who affirm our beliefs, it's more comfortable that way.

It's easier that way.

And quite honestly,

there's many of

us who,

as we

begin to study our Bibles,

contributed nothing

to the,

how

does

he

deal with

it?

Not only

like not

to be

divisive,

I don't want to

be divisive

in the church.

You need to

find a

body of believers that can happen

in a very

great

theology.

And we

have people in

the church who are not

believing just because in

the end.

Yeah.

And obviously,

although he may not

wish to be

divisive, if

he can't keep his.

Mouth shut about what he now believes is the truth, it's best for him to leave because there's nothing

worse than someone who's constantly trying to undermine the teaching of the

pastor.

And if you're in a position, however, where you believe the pastor is very wrong, it's not

really a healthy thing to remain because you're going to wind up creating enemies between yourself and the leaders of the church.

And I'm sure you would agree with that, that it's, you know, if this person is going to be sitting

in a pew week after week, hearing things that make his skin crawl, he's not going to be able to keep

silent about it.

And so, and I agree that he must be

humble when he approaches his pastor.

As our first guest, Pastor Steve Kareloff said that he is not to have a

bull in a china shop kind of attitude when he's facing his pastor, where he acts as if

he is now the teacher and the pastor is the disciple or the

congregant and be too aggressive in that area where he

is behaving like a know -it -all, if you follow what.

I'm saying.

I do, and Chris, I don't know if you could relate to this.

I can relate to this, and I see this in many people in

the church.

Someone comes under the revelation by grace.

Fortunately, it doesn't have to be this way, but it seems to be a trend where most genuine believers come to the revelation,

and they almost go through this time of spiritual pride, where, like you said, they feel like, okay, it's my responsibility

to make this known to everybody.

Are you speaking of cage -stage Calvinism?

That would be a

good term,

when someone's

coming under that to say not to be where you can't

sermon on

an

email, sit

down,

media act, agreement, and then they go to social.

Yeah, and of course, the cage -stage Calvinists can be quite annoying, even to

Calvinists, because we are very often embarrassed by them.

And I can still remember vividly a member of the congregation where I was a member, which was a

Reformed Baptist church, and this person who had come out of Arminianism and became a

Calvinist pit bull, but had more zeal than wisdom or more zeal than

knowledge.

I can remember him after a service saying, can you believe what the pastor said from the pulpit?

He actually talked about choosing God.

And I said, ah, did you know that he was quoting from Joshua 24, choose whom you

will serve, choose this day whom you will serve.

And, you know, I mean, these words are in the Bible.

Calvinists believe that we do choose.

The question is that when and how do we choose correctly?

We all choose freely to sin all the time.

And when we actually choose God as the one whom we will

serve, it is done so because the Holy Spirit regenerates us first and we have open eyes and unplug the

ears and new hearts.

So it's not that we don't choose, but it's that we need a miracle of heart

transformation before we can choose rightly.

And let's see, we have another listener.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who wants to know if you could

define the fear of God to begin with.

I have heard Christians say that we should not even be afraid of God at all.

If you could comment.

Yeah, well, there's a fear of the Lord.

In regards to and so even though we, by grace, through faith in

Jesus Christ, are accepted by God, we are loved by God,

talked about

there

was some that

men need to

repent to see that that

God

reconciled, we

don't reckon.

Amen.

And I guess

you

would

agree, I'm assuming

you

would

agree that.

When it is an inappropriate fear, when it is an unbiblical fear of God, it

manifests itself in staying away from Him, not approaching Him.

There are people, as you know, who have such a self

-awareness of their wretchedness, who may have been involved in sins far more

grievous than those that you and I have ever committed.

They may even be on death row and they may be guilty as

charged and completely aware that they are evil.

And when a chaplain comes by their cell or something and they just say, hey, God is never going to

forgive me.

Just keep them away from me.

I know I'm going to hell.

There's no use.

You're wasting your time telling me about this God of love and so on.

He can't love me.

That's when a fear would be inappropriate and exaggerated and a

caricature.

Yes.

I go back here often.

Remember David's confession.

Remember the basis in verse one that he comes back to the Lord on.

He says, have mercy on me, oh God.

And then he doesn't come and say, let me earn my way back to you.

Let me clean myself up a little bit.

He pleads for mercy.

And the beautiful thing of this statement is the mercy on me, oh God,

steadfast.

And I love Deuteronomy

chapter seven when he's talking and he says, you're a holy people, holy people for you are people

holy to your God.

The Lord, your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession.

Out of all the people who are on the face of the earth and verse seven, he gives the reason.

It's not because you're more number than any other people for you are the fewest

of all.

If we can begin to grasp,

and if it's

not, then

that love

diminished based on our performance, even as born again Christians now, and that love does

not increase based on our performance.

And we can't allow the people who are using the word love of God

to steal what Paul

Washer said this.

One of the hardest things for the Christians to believe is to look in the mirror and see their continued

imperfections and believe that God.

Talk to a man that says, great, let me continue in my sin we're talking to.

But when you're talking to a man like you wrote about, and

that's the problem.

If you look at yourself, you can't see God's love for you because his love for you is not founded in you or your performance.

His love for you was founded in him, and he willingly set it upon you.

And when you begin to grasp that truth and return to that truth, and that's the basis for which you keep coming

and you're...

I want

to make sure that you have several minutes.

Uninterrupted right now to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our.

Listeners today.

Well, I would say this, you know, in regards to the gospel that's coming to New

England, why are we going to New England?

I would say this, we want to come and preach the gospel in an area where we don't see a lot

of happening, and I know there are things happening, but here's we need, Chris, we need a return

to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

One of the things we have to understand as we're talking about this fear of man is that when Paul came to the church of

Corinth, he said, brothers, I did not come to you proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or

wisdom.

He said, for I have decided there's nothing among you except Jesus Christ.

And I want to encourage all of us and exhort all

of us to believe in the grace of the gospel, not to try to come with

wise and persuasive words to win the approval of man, but rather to come in faith in the

gospel of Jesus Christ.

And Paul says, I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message was not in

plausible words of wisdom.

We have to embrace the reality of

what our message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is

not going to be received well, believing

that, as it says at the end of 1

Corinthians 2, to be

justified, buried, and resurrected, not

in words only, but a

committed teaching and teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ,

and that by

the faith of

Christ.

Amen.

Well, once

again, I want

to make sure that our.

Listeners have all of the information they need not only to attend this conference, but also to attend

services at Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

First of all, the Fellowship Conference New England, which is being held August 3rd through the

5th in Portland, Maine.

You can find out more details about that, and you can register for that at fellowshipconferencenewengland

.com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

For Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, go to gracelifedallas .org,

gracelifedallas .org.

Also, if you are intending to attend the

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology this weekend, along with my co -host Reverend

Buzz Taylor and I, where we will be manning an exhibitors booth, we would love to

see you.

Make sure that you greet us at the exhibitors booth.

If you have not yet looked into all the details about this, because even though the pre

-registration discounts are now closed, you can walk in and register the

very day of the conference.

If you want more information on this, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, and the

theme of the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology this year is Reformation, Recovering the Essence of the

Gospel.

That features speakers such as Carl Truman, Richard Phillips, Daniel Doriani, and

others.

As I said, that's going to be held April 28th through the 30th this weekend at the Proclamation

Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

Go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org.

Also, this weekend, if you live on Long Island, or close by, and you

would rather go to a conference on Long Island, my friends at New York Apologetics,

Anthony Uvinio and his colleague Nick Mitchell, who are founders of New York Apologetics,

are having the Dare to Defend conference this weekend, Friday, April 28th, 7 to 9 p .m.,

and Saturday, April 29th, 9 a .m. to 4 p .m., featuring Greg Kokel, Frank

Turek, and Mary Jo Sharp.

It's going to be held at the Smithtown Christian School, and for more details on that, go to

newyorkapologetics .com, newyorkapologetics .com.

When you register, if you use the discount code IRON, I -R -O -N,

for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, that's I -R -O -N, IRON, you will get $10 off your registration

fee.

So that's newyorkapologetics .com, newyorkapologetics .com, and you spell out the words New

York.

Do not abbreviate them.

Last but not least, I hope that many of you join me at the

Banner of Truth 2017 U .S. Ministers Conference, going to be held this May 30th

through June 1st, and the conference theme is The Living and Enduring Word.

Speakers include Joel Beeky, Jeff Thomas, William Vanderwerd, Mark Johnston,

Jonathan Master, and Carlton Winn, and Ian Hamilton.

This is for leaders in the church only, pastors, deacons, and others.

You can go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org.

The U .S. Ministers Conference is being held in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabethtown College,

and so if you'd like to go to that, please go to banneroftruth .org and click on

Events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

If you live in the United Kingdom, as many of our listeners do, please click on U .K.

Conference or U .K. Ministers Conference.

There are several of them.

In fact, I got an email today from an Iron Sharpens Iron listener in Wales who said, Do you

recognize this guy?

And he was standing there with his arm around one of my elders at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who is

in the U .K. at one of the Banner of Truth U .K. Ministers Conferences.

Even though he's from here in the States, he went to that conference.

So I hope to see you there at the U .S. Ministers Conference for the Banner of Truth.

Banneroftruth .org is the website to find out more information.

And last but not least, please remember to keep Iron Sharpens Iron in your prayers.

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Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com and click on Support to find the mailing

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And also, if you'd like to advertise with us, whether you are a pastor of a church,

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advertising in the subject line.

Well, thank you again, Pastor Jesse Barrington.

I look forward to having you back on Iron Sharpens Iron and hopefully for two hours next time.

I would appreciate that.

I'll be praying for your brother John.

Great, and if you want to hold on the line, I'd like to schedule another interview with you if you don't mind.

Sure.

And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.

Please keep Reverend Buzz Taylor and I in prayer as we go to the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.