April 26, 2016 Show with Steve Kreloff on “A Critique of the Messianic Jewish Movement From the Perspective of a Jewish Christian” PLUS Jesse Barrington on “Fearing God More Than Man”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 26th day of April 2017 and it's been quite some time since I have interviewed my guest today,

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Steve Kreloff, and I'm looking forward to it. He's an author and he's also the pastor of Lakeside Community Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

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We're discussing something that is a very controversial issue today, an issue that may offend some, perhaps even many in our audience, and that is not our intention to unnecessarily offend anyone, but sometimes the truth is offensive, especially if it rubs against or contradicts our traditions.

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But today we are going to be discussing a critique of the Messianic Jewish movement from the perspective of a

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Jewish Christian, and that Jewish Christian happens to be our guest, Steve Kreloff, who as I said is pastor of Lakeside Community Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Steve Kreloff.

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Well, thank you, Chris. It's good to be back with you. Thanks for inviting me. And before we even get into your testimony of how you came to embrace

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Christ as your Messiah, I would like to hear a bit about the

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Lakeside Community Chapel in Clearwater, Florida. Well, thanks. Lakeside is a

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Bible -believing, Bible -teaching church, non -denominational, independent. I've been pastoring here for this

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May will be 35, no actually 36 years this May, and it is the church that I actually started attending shortly after I came to faith in Christ.

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It is the church that nurtured me when I was a university student and has nurtured my family, my children, now my grandchildren.

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It's a church that it's really a privilege to be a part of.

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I love Lakeside. It's been my life, and these are good days.

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We praise the Lord for his blessings. Praise God. And by the way,

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I want to let our listeners know that Pastor Steve Kreloff is on with us for the first hour only.

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For the second hour, you want to stay tuned to Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and he is going to be telling us about a conference where he is speaking.

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That is the New England Conference, New England Fellowship, or should

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I say Fellowship Conference New England is what it's called, Fellowship Conference New England in Maine, and you're going to want to hear more about that.

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And also our theme for the second hour is going to be fearing God more than man.

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And in fact, that does have something to do with even our first hour because you have a lot of people who are too afraid to bring up a biblical critique of someone's preciously held, cherished, and cherished beliefs when they fear that they may gain that person as an enemy or ruin a friendship or just because they don't want to hear any kind of backlash verbally or otherwise from that person.

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But we need to be more concerned with what offends God than what offends men.

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But tell us something about, Pastor Kreloff, tell us something about your own personal background, the religion of your youth.

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I understand that there are many varieties of people who are part of an ethnically

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Jewish home. Some are religious. Some are atheistic or agnostic.

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Some are Orthodox. Some are of a much more liberal bent, reformed

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Jewish community. But tell us something about your upbringing. Yeah, well, I was raised in Brooklyn, New York.

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And where in New York? I'm sorry. In Brooklyn. Brooklyn, New York, yes.

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My parents are both Jewish. My grandparents were Jewish. My grandparents all came from Russia.

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On my dad's side of the family, they were Orthodox. But I was raised more in a secular environment.

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My dad sort of rejected the Orthodoxy of his upbringing, although he still clung to Judaism in a superstitious way.

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But so I was raised more as a cultural Jew, as one who embraced the culture, the family warmth of being

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Jewish. And my testimony is that I always believed that there was a

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God, that God existed, but I never saw his relevancy in my life.

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I never saw how he would be relevant. And when I was about 12, 13 years old, three of my grandparents died within a very short period of time, very close to each other, within a year.

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And that really threw me. It threw me about death. Where did they go? What happens once you die?

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And then I realized it's not only old people who die, but I'm going to die someday.

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What's going to happen to me? And that sort of just sent me on a course of great fears.

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I entered my teenage years of great fear of death. And then actually, from that,

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I saw that my life was empty. I had no peace, no joy, no love in my heart for anybody but myself.

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And I went through my teenage years like that. I really delved into sports a lot.

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It was sort of my way of escaping the harsh realities of life and my own inability to come up with answers.

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And so I got very involved in sports and especially the love of baseball. And when my family moved down from New York, we moved to Florida, first to the

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Miami area, and then I went to school at the University of South Florida in Tampa, Florida.

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And it was there that the Lord sent a young man who had recently come to faith in Christ just to witness to me.

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He started just sharing with me about Christ. And I didn't want to hear about Jesus.

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I just wasn't interested. So what I decided to do is purchase a

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Bible. I never owned a Bible in my life. I decided to purchase one, and my goal was to read through the

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New Testament so that I could tell my friend, show him all the what

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I thought were contradictions and errors in the Bible, and then justify my unbelief by telling him, this is why

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I don't believe in your Jesus. But lo and behold, as I was reading the New Testament, I think it would have been the

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Gospel of Matthew, looking back, the Lord began to use His Word to bring me to Himself.

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I first became very impressed with Christ as a person, and then the more I read, the more

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I interacted with my friend and other believers, the more I came to understand that He was more than a good person.

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He's God, He's the Messiah, He's Lord. And so it was,

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I think, a period of about six months of reading and thinking and interacting with others and the

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Lord using His Word in my life, I eventually came to faith in Him as my

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Messiah. So that is my testimony of how I came to faith in Christ. And tell me something about the reaction to that by your family and an update on how they are looking upon you today and so on.

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Yeah, yeah. Well, I came to faith when

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I was away at school, so I waited until the summer, which was just a few months away, to tell my family, and the reactions of various family members were very different.

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My mom, who was somewhat sympathetic, had the view that this is just a phase of life that I was going through and I would pass through this.

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And then she, I remember her saying, you know, you'll pass through this, but don't tell your father about this.

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Well, you can't keep your faith to yourself. And when my dad found out, he was quite upset.

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My brother really didn't. I only have one sibling. My brother, he really wasn't interested at all.

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And so it was not an easy time for me, but eventually,

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I mean, I'm skipping over a lot of years now, eventually my mom came to faith in Christ.

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Praise God. Yeah, it was literally on her deathbed. She died of lung cancer, dying of lung cancer, and I flew down to Miami, got a chance to witness to her again, and she acknowledged that she had received

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Christ. She couldn't verbally communicate with me, but she was very aware of what

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I was saying and sort of nodded and squeezed my hand and that type of thing. And then five hours later, she passed away.

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So my dad passed away about seven years ago. I can only hope that at the end, he accepted

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Jesus as his Messiah. He wasn't able to communicate, excuse me, at the end.

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So I don't know, but he certainly had opportunity here because both my son and I shared with him the gospel and as much as I knew about salvation as he was, you know, really lying on his deathbed.

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My brother is still alive. We have a very good relationship. And I'm actually very encouraged by what

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I see, I believe, is the Lord drawing him to himself. So that's the story of my family.

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I'm really not close to other family members. I'm sort of the black sheep of the family. Is that specifically because of your coming to Christ?

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I think so. I think so. No one's made a great effort to get to know me well.

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Maybe that would have been the case regardless. But yeah, we don't have that many family members, cousins, and things like that.

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But no one's going out of their way to get to know the Christian. My brother and I are very close, and we talk to each other regularly, and we have a very good relationship.

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Yes, it is quite an interesting phenomena that you will have a

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Jewish family on occasion. And I'm not broad -brushing here, obviously, as I even opened up the program.

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There are many varieties of Jewish households in regard to faith and lack thereof.

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But I know a friend who is currently living in Florida. He used to be from Long Island.

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He was a Jewish man from a

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Jewish family. At one time before coming to Christ, he was a male stripper.

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His Jewish family, which was not very religious, they were much like the

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Jewish version of the Christians that only go to church on Christmas and Easter, and perhaps also at weddings, funerals, communion services for the children, and stuff like that.

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But his family only tipped their hat to Jewish tradition on Passover and Hanukkah.

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But they had no problem with him being a male stripper. He became a

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Christian, and especially his mother was so furious they sat shiva for him.

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They wrote him off as a dead man, had nothing to do with him. I don't know if there's been any development on that, but this had gone on for 20 years.

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It had gone on for about 20 years when I first met him. And his mother, at a funeral, when they showed up at a funeral of a fellow family member, his mother physically attacked his

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Gentile wife in the funeral parlor. Had to be physically pulled off of her. Right.

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And you know, part of that is this great misunderstanding that he has denounced being

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Jewish, which is not the case. Part of this is ignorance. It can't be excused.

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I'm not saying that and justifying it, but a lot of it with Jewish hostility to a

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Jewish person coming to faith by the Jewish community is that they have this thought that Jesus, to accept

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Jesus, is to denounce being Jewish, is to denounce the whole history of our people, and to embrace this

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Gentile anti -Semitic movement, which that's how they often interpret

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Christianity. And there's some justification in that, because so much hatred has been poured out on Jewish people down through the centuries in the name of Jesus Christ, but has not been his true followers.

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It's been often Roman Catholicism and the institutionalized church, not true born -again believers, and so there are reasons why they would react this way, and their hostility.

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Of course, man by his nature is hostile towards God, whether he's Jewish or Gentile, but I can understand why they would denounce him because they think that he's turned his back on his whole heritage.

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At least that's part of the issue. Yes, and I ask of you all to pray for Steve, his name is also

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Steve, that his family might be reunited with him, and even more so that they might come to Christ, obviously infinitely more so, that they would come to Christ.

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Okay, do you want me to pray now on the air? No, we could do that off the air, because we have limited time here, obviously, for you to be on the show.

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Now, you are a Jewish believer, you are not only a

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Christian, but a pastor, and yet you may surprise many because you have a discomfort, and I'll have you explain that in your own wording, in a fuller description, but you have a discomfort with the

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Messianic Jewish movement, which of course is also not monolithic. You have all different kinds of people who would use the label

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Messianic Jewish, all the way from the minority of people that may theologically agree with you and I on most things, all the way over on the other side of the spectrum to Arians who would reject the deity of Christ and the

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Trinity and so on, and some of them, unfortunately, are under the radar, if you will, of naive

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Christians who think that they are brothers and sisters in Christ, and they're really just pushing

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Arianism. The radio station that I used to work for in New York, I worked there for 15 years, and they had a program on there nearly as long as I worked there that was hosted by a

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Messianic rabbi, and then when it became very obvious this man was theologically

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Arian, he did not believe in the deity of Christ, believed only that Jesus was a Messiah, or the

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Messiah, but not God, he eventually was forced to pull his program off the air, or we pulled his program off the air, or should

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I say the authorities of the radio station pulled his program off the air, because of the fact that the letters of complaint were pouring in and the phone calls from Christians who picked up on his his being really opposed to historic

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Christianity. But even if you want to include in the mix those, as I said earlier, who are biblically

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Orthodox, you still have a problem with much of that which is included in Messianic Judaism, and if you could explain in your own words why.

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Yeah, I can. Yeah, I think you're very wise in pointing out that Messianic Judaism comes in a variety of flavors, so we have to define our terms.

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For example, Christian Jewish people in Israel would be called

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Messianics, and I have no problem with that, but what we're talking about is within our country, the

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United States, a movement that started a number of years ago by Jewish people who, and I think they had a good motivation at least, their motivation was to try to help new

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Jewish believers be assimilated into the faith. Maybe that's not the best term, assimilated, but just sort of, as they came to faith in Christ, just have an understanding of the

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Jewish flavor of the faith, and just sort of help them make adjustments to being believers.

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But what has happened, it has evolved into a whole movement that has some serious problems, and here are my problems with it.

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When you say I'm not comfortable with it, that's right, I'm not comfortable with it, because I think there are some violations of important Biblical truths.

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For example, the most significant problem, and this is not one that every

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Messianic synagogue, every Messianic Jewish group embraces, but enough do that we need to speak about it, is the error of rejecting the doctrine of justification by faith.

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What Messianic Judaism does is it goes back to the Old Testament laws, ceremonies, like keeping the feasts, keeping kosher food, doing certain traditions, and so forth, and they would say that you, keeping the

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Sabbath, for example, you must do that in order to be a Christian. You must believe in Jesus as Messiah, but you also must keep these laws, and that's really heresy.

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In fact, that's the message of Paul to the Galatians. He said if anyone holds to this, they hold to a different gospel, and they're there to be accursed.

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It's really rejecting salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ.

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So we can't add anything to salvation. It is Christ alone and his death on the cross.

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So I see that, Chris, as the most serious problem. I'm not saying that every group holds to that, but as I said before, enough holds to that that we have to say, this is dangerous, this is heresy.

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Secondly, I'm not comfortable with the fact that there's any church, though they call themselves synagogues, any church or synagogue that would say we're just going to be

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Messianic, in other words, just going to be focusing on one ethnic group. According to Paul in, well, not only all of his letters, but in particular

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Ephesians, he emphasizes that the body of Christ, the body of Messiah, the true

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Church, is made up of Jewish people, Jewish believers, and Gentiles. So I don't believe the

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Church should be Gentile, I don't believe it ought to be Jewish. I believe it ought to be of one where people from diverse backgrounds come together and their focus is on Christ, not their ethnic heritage.

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There's always the danger of ethnic pride in this. So I just, by its very nature to say something is

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Messianic and has a Jewish flavor, I think that violates the

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New Testament. I mean, obviously you had to have that at the Church of Jerusalem, the first local

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Church of Jerusalem, we only had Jewish believers. But after that, the Church is supposed to be made up of people from all different ethnic backgrounds.

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And so, listen, I'm also opposed to having just an all -black church or an all -white church or an

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Hispanic church unless there is a language barrier. Then, for obvious reasons of communication, you have to have an ethnic group, but the next generation that learns the language of the land ought not to be like that.

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So those are two of my big problems with it, and so I share that for whatever it's worth.

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Now, obviously, my co -host has something to say, but I'll wait, he'll have to wait just a second.

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Obviously, there's a difference between a church or a congregation that is providentially all -white or black or Asian or Hispanic, but there's a difference when you design it that way.

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Right, right. Yes, I should have said that. That's right. I mean, there are certain churches because of where they're located and that, right.

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But if their intention is to focus on that one group and to exclude others or to have this flavor or that flavor,

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I think that violates the spirit of the New Testament. All right, my co -host who could barely speak,

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Buzz Taylor, wants to say a word. Yes, I'll try to speak again. But now, in these

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Messianic fellowships, isn't there also, though, I realize we already said that they're not, you know, monolithic.

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There's a great variety of them. But don't they tend to look at some of the Jewish traditions that have they've kept over the years as required for Christian dietary laws and certain styles of music and things like this?

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Yeah, that's the biggest problem when you require something. You know, I don't have a problem if, let's say, a

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Jewish believer says, hey, I want to celebrate the Passover or Hanukkah.

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I know I don't need to, but I want to do that, maybe make a statement, maybe a testimony.

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I don't have a big problem with that, because Paul spoke about a lot of liberty.

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There are liberty issues that we have. Certain things are not right, or at least not commanded and not prohibited in Scripture.

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But when Jewish people, and sometimes people in Messianic, the

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Messianic movements and synagogues, many of them are not Jewish, they're often Gentiles, but people within that, when they say this is what

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God requires, like eating the dietary laws, I say that's so serious, because that is a disregard for the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ.

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When you add anything to the Gospel, you are adding works. So I think that's a serious, serious problem.

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Now, if a believer says, I think I should eat a certain way because it's healthier, I don't have a problem with that.

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But when you start getting into God's demands, this requires it's legalism, it's condemned in the

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New Testament, it misleads people, and all of those, let me just say this,

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I didn't say this up to this point, but I will now, all of those things, the laws, the sacrifices, all that, those were just pictures pointing to Christ.

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We're not to be enthralled with the pictures. I illustrate it this way. Years ago, I took my son when he was young to his first baseball game.

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We have spring training here in Florida, and I live in Clearwater, Florida, and that's where the

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Philadelphia Phillies train. So I took my son to a Phillies spring training game, and you can get pretty close to the ballplayers there, so we're fairly close to them behind this fence.

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And I look over at my son, this was before the game started, and I said, well, what are you doing? And he's looking at his baseball cards.

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He said, well, I'm looking at my baseball cards. And I said, son, what are you looking at the pictures for?

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The real guy. That's pretty funny. That's really the message of the book of Heberts.

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What are you looking at the pictures for when Messiah has come? And so I think that's what we have to teach and say the

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New Testament gives us these pictures of Christ, the feast, the foods, even the

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Sabbath, all of that pointed to the Messiah. He's here. Don't go back to these other things.

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They're just shadows. They're just pictures. They're just signs pointing to the reality. Let's focus on the reality that's

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Jesus himself. One thing that just occurred to me, I'm sure that many of my listeners in Brooklyn are saying, okay, we understand you giving up a your

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Jewish background to become a Christian, but did you have to leave the Brooklyn accent behind? What happened with that?

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Hey, listen, there's a word that I cannot get away from. If I say it, everyone's going to say, hey, that's the normal way.

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Coffee. Well, no, it's the word idea. Oh, okay. No, there's no

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R there. It should be idea, but I have the hardest time saying that. Well, I left

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Brooklyn before I was 15, so that's probably why. We're going to be going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Steve Kreloff, whether you agree with him, whether you vehemently disagree with him, or whether you're just not certain, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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We hope to hear from you. In fact, those of you who are already waiting for your questions to be asked and answered, we ask you to be patient.

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We will get to you as soon as possible, God willing, and don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with Steve Kreloff.

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32:54

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our first guest today for the first hour is

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Steve Kreloff, author and pastor of Lakeside Chapel in Clearwater, Florida.

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We are discussing a critique of the Messianic Jewish movement from the perspective of a

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Jewish Christian, and that Jewish Christian happens to be our guest, Steve Kreloff. In the studio with me is the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. One other question that I have for you,

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Steve, is that I know that you are a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, and what seems very puzzling to me is that those who share our belief in God's sovereignty, especially when you think of unconditional election, it seems strange to me that this is a tiny minority of folks that would share that belief in the

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Messianic Jewish movement when God's election of the Jewish people of Israel in the

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Hebrew scriptures is so clear and such a major part of the

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Jewish understanding of how God relates with humanity that he has a particular people.

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It is very bizarre to me that Arminianism by far dominates

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Messianic Judaism. Yeah, it is surprising, and it's perplexing, especially in light of the fact that Romans 9, 10, and 11 address the very issue, and it's all about God being faithful to keep his words to the

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Jewish people, and Paul's argument there is that God has always had an elect remnant, and Romans 9,

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Paul goes through that list of it was Isaac and not Esau, it was

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Jacob, and or Isaac and not Ishmael, I mean, and then it was Jacob and not

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Esau, and so I agree with you. They ought to know from the scriptures the fact that God is sovereign in who he elects, because Israel's whole basis as a nation, as a people, the people of God is based on God's sovereign choice, unconditional election, so I don't know why

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I heard when someone said we were all born Armenians and we learned the truth of God's sovereignty as we come to him and grow in him, so I don't have an answer as to why that movement would not embrace the truth of election.

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Do you have any, so you don't have any theory as to why the dominant theological makeup of Messianic Judaism is

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Arminian? No, I really don't. I have not, no one's ever asked me that, and I've not thought that through.

35:57

I don't know, perhaps, and I'm only just speculating, perhaps because they emphasize so many other things, they have not thought through or studied theology like they should have, but that's only my guess.

36:11

I don't know. Yes, and obviously it could be that these specific

36:18

Messianic groups, or the majority of them, I should say, have been developed as a result of the mission outreach by Arminian churches.

36:29

Yeah, and maybe their emphasis, they've been so emphasizing certain things to the neglect of other things.

36:35

I think always in the Christian life there has to be balance, and part of being balanced is yes, we ought to be concerned about evangelism, but we also have to be concerned about growing in our knowledge of the

36:47

Word and of the Lord, and that means studying his Word and studying theology, and just being one who really is all -reaching as far as what

36:58

Scripture says, and not overemphasizing one doctrine or one emphasis to the neglect of something else.

37:07

And let's see, we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, do you think that the accusations made by Jews and Messianic Jews against those who are sovereign grace -believing

37:22

Christians, that we are anti -Semitic in the roots of what we believe, is a valid accusation?

37:33

Well, it's hard to answer that, because I don't know the context of that.

37:38

Perhaps what they're saying is there are many who embrace the five solas and who would be reformed in their theology, who would maybe have no place for Israel prophetically.

37:52

I'm not one of those who holds to that. I would be premillennial and holding to the belief that God has a future plan for Israel, and that in these days he's building his

38:07

Church made up of Jews and Gentiles, but that he will, during the Tribulation, once again focus upon Israel, and when

38:17

Paul says in Romans 11, all Israel will be saved, he means at the time of Christ's return, all the

38:23

Jewish people alive, for the most part, will look upon him whom they've pierced and will be converted, and there'll be a time of national repentance.

38:32

So it's hard to answer that question, but perhaps what they're saying is many in Reformed thinking would say that the

38:42

Church has replaced Israel and God has no place for Israel in his plan, and if that's the case, it doesn't necessarily mean, if someone holds it up, that they're anti -Semitic.

38:53

I would never say that, so I think that would be a false accusation, but perhaps that's why some in Messianic circles have said that.

39:03

Yeah, and obviously the understanding of what an amillennial or postmillennial or non -dispensational

39:14

Christian believes may be very clouded or based upon caricature or what have you, because there are people that I know personally, and in fact

39:24

I'm one of them, I'm an amillennialist, I love the Jewish people, have a passion for the

39:30

Jewish people, and regardless as to whether I believe the current physical nation in the

39:39

Middle East is a direct fulfillment of specific biblical prophecy, that I don't believe would warrant the label of anti -Semitic, because obviously you could have a different theological perspective or eschatological perspective on something and not have a hatred or bigoted understanding of the

39:57

Jews or attitude towards the Jews. Yes, I would agree 100 percent, just because somebody doesn't hold to the same view of a future plan for Israel doesn't mean that they're anti -Semitic, and we have to be very careful of making accusations like that.

40:14

And my co -host has a comment. I believe I understand a little bit of the source of that question anyway,

40:19

I'm not sure if there's a direct link or not, but of course prophecy teaching in evangelicalism is very popular, and years ago,

40:29

I don't have the exact... Al Lindsay? Yes, he wrote a book called The Road to Holocaust, in which he did make accusations that those that did not hold to his eschatology were anti -Semitic.

40:40

Yeah, and I think that's wrong, I think that's a very unfair accusation.

40:46

In fact, I know, personally, I know Jewish believers who are all millennial and post -millennial.

40:53

Really, if you think about it, some of the most caustic comments you have against the

40:58

Jews were made by Christ himself, and he was a Jew. Right, yeah, that does not mean one is anti -Semitic if you say the truth and deal with people about their sin and unbelief and so forth.

41:11

We have to be very careful about those accusations. And some may be very surprised to hear that Chosen People Ministries, based in New York City, was founded in the 19th century by a

41:26

Jewish man who converted to Christianity or became a believer in Christ through the evangelistic efforts of Presbyterians in Brooklyn.

41:37

So, I mean, you have some of these ministries that people aren't even aware that they came out of a

41:46

Reformed root. And, in fact, the current president of Chosen People Ministries, who

41:52

I've had on this program, Mitch Glazer, although he is not, I don't think he would use the label

41:59

Reformed, he is a five -point Calvinist, a thoroughgoing Calvinist, in spite of the fact that he would have a different understanding of eschatology than I do and a different understanding of the role of Israel.

42:12

He is a Calvinist and he is very happy to explain the history of Chosen People coming out of the missionary efforts of Presbyterians.

42:28

In fact, Mitch Glazer, I don't know if he still is, but for over a decade was on the membership role of the

42:36

Presbyterian Church in New York. I have a question for you that is from a new listener and it's not really about the subject that we are discussing, but perhaps, since you are a pastor, you can answer it anyway, especially since this man is a first -time listener or at least a first -time questioner.

43:01

He says, My name is John from New York. I am currently a member of an Assemblies of God church, and while the pastor is faithful and tries his best to pastor the church,

43:11

I find myself at odds with the doctrines of the Assemblies of God. As of last year, around October of 2016,

43:19

I affirmed the doctrines of grace as biblical and started to disagree with distinctives of the

43:25

Assemblies of God denomination and Pentecostalism as a movement, both of which the pastor holds to as per his training and tradition.

43:34

Stuff like continuationism of the signed gifts, the over -focus on healing rather than endurance, the

43:44

Arminian theology, are consistent hang -ups. Moreover, I disagree with the direction the church is going, being a little too seeker -sensitive, and sacrificing the truth of the

43:54

Bible in tiny steps. In general, I find myself moving toward the Reformed Baptist tradition, but that is a separate thing

44:02

I'm working on. Anyway, do you have any advice on how to break it to my pastor that I no longer affirm the

44:10

Assemblies of God traditions? It seems like a hard thing to tell him by any account, and I want to do it in the most

44:16

God -honoring and wise way. Yes. Well, and I appreciate that. John, if you're listening,

44:22

I appreciate that. I think we have to affirm that those who embrace

44:27

Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, they're our brothers. So I would never put your pastor in the church in the category of being an apostate church or false teaching, even though we wouldn't agree with them on many doctrines.

44:47

But still, if they embrace salvation by faith alone in Christ alone, they're our brothers and sisters in Christ.

44:54

I think you would be wise. It sounds like you are moving away from the church, and I think you're wise to do that.

45:03

If you have come to settled convictions, as it sounds like you have, in the more Reformed Baptist camp and approach, then you shouldn't stay in that church.

45:13

You shouldn't be divisive. You can't really support the church financially or in any other way.

45:20

So I think my advice would be to certainly spend time in prayer, asking the

45:25

Lord to give you wisdom and the right words, and then make an appointment to see your pastor, the pastor of this church, and then sit down and don't lecture him, don't give him a course on your new beliefs and theology, but to respectfully tell him that you feel like you need to move on, that you hold his different doctrines, and thank him for his ministry to you.

45:51

He's a sincere man, and thank him for his ministry, and part ways with him where you're on good terms.

46:01

So my advice would be don't give him a lecture. Don't try to set him right. You're not going to do that anyway.

46:07

So just be gracious and respectful and leave on good terms.

46:15

All right, Reverend Buzz Taylor, you have a thought? Yes, I find it interesting that that question does come up because it was while I was in the

46:21

Assemblies of God that I was going Reformed myself, and I used to share my beliefs with the pastor.

46:28

I mean, of course, he was a good friend of mine also, and I just started sharing about election and things, and I had him scratching his head a lot of times trying to answer me, but the relationship was good, but then when he finally left the church,

46:42

I figured that was a good time for me to also exit, and I started going to a Reformed church then, but it's interesting because I was in that exact same position.

46:52

Well, it's interesting, Buzz. Maybe you should rethink leaving the Pentecostal church because it seems like your voice is healing.

46:57

Right, yes, yes. It may interest our listener,

47:04

John, to know also that I have a very dear friend who departed this earth about a year and a half to two years ago.

47:15

He was in a car accident and went home to glory in an instant.

47:21

His name was Al Stein, and he was the pastor of the

47:27

Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island, New York, and Al Stein, when

47:33

I first met him, was an Arminian Assemblies of God pastor, and years later, during our friendship, he gradually came to the point where he was a full -blown five -point

47:43

Calvinist, remained the pastor of the Assembly of God there, and basically, for some reason, the denomination accepted his explanation about whether or not you could lose your salvation, because obviously that seems to be one of the primary things that they insist you believe, and he said that he believed in evidential security, not eternal security in the sense that many people use that term where you could live like the devil your whole life after some kind of a conversion experience, after walking up an aisle, which the

48:28

Assemblies of God opposes, and so did the Reformed Baptists, for that matter. But he said, if you are to have any confidence in your security, you are going to be bearing evidence.

48:40

As Jesus said, if you're a good tree, you're going to be bearing good fruit. So he remained a

48:46

Calvinist until he went home to glory. In fact, I'm sure he is still now, but he was a dear, dear friend.

48:51

I interviewed him many times on Iron Sharpens Iron radio, and perhaps one of these days, I will have more of his interviews posted from the past, posted on the current

49:03

Iron Sharpens Iron website. But thank you very much, John, for listening and submitting your question.

49:08

I have Linda in Hilltop Lake, Texas, who says, What a blessing to listen to your guests every day.

49:16

Has Pastor Kreloff ever been to the land of Israel, and if so, what are his thoughts and observations of his trip?

49:23

Oh, that's a great question. I have been to Israel, I believe it's eight times, and I'm going back again at the end of October, leading a tour.

49:33

I've been there on the traditional 10 -day tours. I've also, my wife and I have spent three weeks with students from the

49:41

Master's College. That was about, I think, about 11 years ago. I love Israel. I love the land.

49:48

I love the people. Of course, when you're on a tour like that, you're not really interacting so much with the people there, except if you go in stores and things like that.

49:57

So I haven't had much experience there. I do have a dear friend, Menno Kalischer, who pastors a church in Jerusalem.

50:05

I love Israel. It is, at this point in time, a secular state, but there are a number of true believers there, and I'm not sure what else to say about it.

50:18

I think that every Christian, if they can afford to go, should go to Israel.

50:24

Somebody said it's like going to Bible, a 10 -day tour is like being in Bible college for a year.

50:31

I would say it's like two years of Bible college in the sense of learning the geography, the history, so many of the biblical events come to life when you've been there.

50:42

So, for example, if I'm preaching about Jesus and his ministry in Capernaum, in my mind,

50:48

I'm picturing what Capernaum looks like. They've sort of reconstructed it a bit. The synagogue, at least, it stands in terms of some structure where the old synagogue was in our

51:02

Lord's day. And so, anyway, I think the Bible comes alive, and it helped me to put so many things together and really help my own

51:11

Bible teaching, my own preaching, my own understanding. And I think also going to Israel gives you a great empathy, compassion for the

51:22

Jewish people. One of the things that we always put on our tours is to go to Yad Vashem, that's the

51:28

Museum of the Holocaust, to the Holocaust victims, and regardless of what we might hold to concerning the future for Israel, to see how they've been treated in the past is important to understand the

51:43

Jewish people today, to understand the hostility against them, to understand why

51:50

Israel as a nation is so important and why we have to support

51:56

Israel as a nation in terms of living in the land without hostility and without the oppression of Palestinian and Arab aggression against them.

52:11

So, anyway, I'm not sure if that answers what Linda was asking, but those are some of my thoughts on Israel.

52:18

I love going to Israel. And I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for Lakeside Community Chapel.

52:24

It's lakesidechapel .com, lakesidechapel .com. If you could close our program with about a minute or so of a summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

52:38

Well, the program has been on Messianic Judaism and my thoughts as a

52:44

Jewish believer on it, but one thing I didn't emphasize, and I want to, is that I believe regardless of what our denomination is, our background is, if we're a believer in Christ, really, the most important thing is to, in terms of receiving truth, is to be in a place where the

53:02

Word of God is proclaimed. This is why the emphasis on my ministry is verse -by -verse exposition of Scripture, line -upon -line.

53:13

I think that's the way God gave His Word. That's the way we understand His Word, in context, and if we would do that, and if we would be in places that emphasize exposition, taking the

53:23

Scriptures in its context, we would not be prone to so many errors.

53:30

I think our people perish because of a lack of knowledge of the Word of God. Amen. We're out of time, and I look forward to having you back, brother, and please keep in touch so we can schedule another interview with you.

53:46

Thank you, Chris. And coming up next is our interview with Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

53:53

If anybody would like to join us on the air on the theme Fearing God More Than Man, give us an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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01:05:36

This is Chris Arnsin, if you just tuned us in. Our second guest today for the remaining hour of the program is

01:05:45

Pastor Jesse Barrington. And Pastor Jesse Barrington is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

01:05:53

He's also going to be speaking at an upcoming conference called the Fellowship Conference New England.

01:05:59

That's going to be held in Maine, and we are going to talk a little bit more about that as well. Our main theme today is going to be

01:06:07

Fearing God More Than Man, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jesse Barrington.

01:06:16

Thank you so much, Chris. It's a privilege to be here. And in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

01:06:22

Hello. And as you can tell from his voice, he is nearly dead right now.

01:06:29

But Pastor Jesse, I'd like you to let our listeners know something about the church where you pastor.

01:06:39

Sure. This is a church I've been pastoring for the past 10 years by God's grace.

01:06:45

It actually started as a Bible study in our home, and the Lord continued to grow that.

01:06:52

And after seeking counsel from other godly men in the area, we moved forward and began congregating on Sunday morning and form a formal congregation back in 2006, so we're coming up on 11 years this year.

01:07:06

And it's been a true blessing for us. We hold to the New Hampshire Confession of 1833, and it's been a delight to pastor this group of people.

01:07:16

Yes. Tell us, I know that I used to have a friend, or I still have him as a friend, I just haven't spoken with him in quite a while,

01:07:23

Pastor John Thornberry, a Reformed Baptist pastor who was at one time pastoring and pastored for many years the

01:07:33

Winfield Baptist Church in Winfield, Pennsylvania. And his church adhered to the

01:07:39

New Hampshire Confession, unlike most Reformed Baptists who adhere to the 1689

01:07:45

London Baptist Confession. Is there any significant difference or any difference at all that you care to comment on? No, there really is not.

01:07:52

I mean, both confessions are great confessions. I shared with you a little bit, Chris, that we sought out other believers to be in fellowship with other churches, and one of the churches we sat down with before we started congregating together was in Alabama.

01:08:08

They held to the New Hampshire Confession of 1833, we studied through it, the founding members were all in agreement with it, and we moved forward with it.

01:08:18

But no, no, no reason not to go with the 1689 either there. Yeah, would that be the Grace Life of Shoals, Alabama?

01:08:25

That would be, it's Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, exactly. Yes, and Iron Trip and Zion Radio is delighted to be on Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, which is the radio ministry of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida.

01:08:43

Yeah. So we're very happy that several months ago they added us in a pre -recorded version to their morning drive lineup and to their 8 to 10 p .m.

01:08:53

slot as well every day. Well, we have a very important theme that we are addressing today.

01:09:01

The theme is fearing God more than man, and that seems to be something that very few

01:09:07

Christians do with consistency, a little part of the fact that we are still sinners while we're on this earth.

01:09:16

Before we go into that, however, I want to make sure that our listeners know about the conference where you're speaking, Fellowship Conference New England, which is going to be held this

01:09:27

August, and the exact dates are August 3rd through the 5th in Portland, Maine, the stomping ground of my co -host

01:09:39

Reverend Buzz Taylor, who used to be a resident of Maine, and the speakers include not only our guest today,

01:09:47

Pastor Jesse Barrington, but also Pastor Don Curran, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who's been a guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio many times, and Pastor Nick or Nate Pickowitz, I hope

01:09:59

I'm pronouncing his name correctly. You did, correct. And one of the things that makes the

01:10:05

Fellowship Conference New England set apart from other conferences is that they purposely do not ever have a main theme.

01:10:14

They allow the speakers to preach freely on subjects that happen to be burning upon their hearts during that time providentially that they're at the conference.

01:10:25

Have you come up with a specific topic of your own this year yet, or is that still in the blueprint stage?

01:10:35

It is still in the blueprint stage. It was interesting last, two years ago, I preached there the last four years, and that is a unique thing about the conference there.

01:10:47

The same men who started the Fellowship Conference here in Denton, Texas, are the ones that started this one out there in Portland, Maine.

01:10:55

And the same thing here goes there that, you know, we trust that the Lord will lead us to preach what is needed at that time, and we seek the

01:11:05

Lord in prayer in that. And so I don't have what I'm going to be preaching this year yet.

01:11:11

I'll be praying about it already, and just saying the Lord will lead us in that. But yeah, it's a variety of topics, and interestingly, the

01:11:21

Lord usually will bring us together, tying the topics together, with obviously Christ being the central theme in all of those sermons.

01:11:30

Well, if anybody would be interested in attending that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:11:39

Fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. I also ask my listening audience to pray that my brother

01:11:45

John, who is my oldest brother, who lives 10 minutes away from the aforementioned

01:11:52

Pastor Mac Tomlinson. My brother lives in Justin, and Mac lives in Denton.

01:12:01

If you could pray that my brother finally agrees to meet with Mac, and visits his church, and so on.

01:12:11

My brother does not share my theological views, right now anyway. I have great hope that one day he may, and I pray that's very soon.

01:12:21

But if you could pray for my brother, I would appreciate it, and also pray for his health. But this question that we have today, do you fear

01:12:32

God more than man, is something that we all need to examine our own hearts, when considering whether or not we are, number one, truly children of God, and number two, if we are being faithful disciples of Jesus Christ.

01:12:51

This is not an easy thing to do, obviously, as many things that are the duty of a

01:12:58

Christian are not easy. But if you could explain why this is such an important issue with you, and I understand that you preached on this issue, providentially, not long ago.

01:13:09

Yes, I did. I think it's an important issue, because really, we're dealing with the glory of God, which is why the universe was created, and why we exist, to glorify

01:13:20

God. I'm working through the Gospel of John right now in my preaching, and I'm just finishing up chapter five.

01:13:29

And in John chapter five, Jesus is meeting with some of the Jews there, and talking with them. He has just healed the lame man at the pool, they've taken offense to this, because he healed him on the

01:13:38

Sabbath, and Jesus tells them that as he's working, his Father was working, making his work one and the same with the

01:13:45

Father, and they are persecuting him, and now wanting to kill him, because he claims

01:13:53

God being his Father, therefore making himself equal with God. And Jesus does not deny those statements, and rather, he affirms them through giving testimony for a great majority of the chapter there, confirming those statements that he made about his equality with the

01:14:10

Father, and the work being one and the same. And he gets down to the end of chapter five, and he talks about why these people will not come to him, and he makes many exclusive statements that they don't know the

01:14:22

Father, and the evidence is because they don't know the Father, because they reject the Son, and he says, you refuse to come to me that you may have life, and he points out there that that's an issue of their heart, it's an issue of the will.

01:14:36

We already mentioned that back in John chapter three, and he says, men love darkness rather than light, so they refuse to come to the light.

01:14:43

And in verse 41, Jesus says, I did not receive glory from people. And this idea of receiving glory, this approval of people leading to praise, and really we're getting to the heart of what we're talking about here, this fear of God versus fear of man, or we could say, seeking the approval of God versus seeking the approval of man, or the glory of God and glory of man.

01:15:07

And this is an issue, this gets to the heart of the gospel. This, this last

01:15:12

Sunday, I was sharing with the congregation, reminding them again that Jesus Christ not only saves us from the penalty of sin that we deserve, the wrath of the

01:15:22

God, but he saves us unto himself to be enjoyed, and to enjoy the glory of God forever.

01:15:30

So what we see in this, a fear of man versus a fear of God, is a low view of God if you are fearing man, and a high view of man if you are seeking the praise of man, and so we're down to the heart of, how do you view

01:15:45

God? What we think about God is what's most important about us, and so what we're fearing will give a great indication of where our heart's at.

01:15:56

You know, I couldn't help but think of this issue the other day when

01:16:02

I was watching Fox News, and one of my favorite talk hosts was on the air, one of the programs that I that I like the most out of the entire

01:16:15

Fox lineup, and that host happens to be Tucker Carlson. Now Tucker Carlson, I'm not really sure where Tucker Carlson stands with the

01:16:24

Lord. I know that he is a member of an Episcopal church, I have no idea whether it's a conservative one or an apostate one, but Tucker Carlson normally is very bold and very skilled and very aggressive when debating people on the air who disagree with his conservative ideology in any area.

01:16:51

He, debating Tucker Carlson is very much like walking into a buzzsaw or a chainsaw.

01:16:58

I would love to see a full length two to three hour debate between him and someone who opposes his views, very much reminiscent of my friend

01:17:10

Dr. James R. White, who is a theological debater and apologist, and probably the most gifted one that I've ever witnessed anywhere.

01:17:20

But it really greatly saddened me when I saw Tucker Carlson interviewing

01:17:26

Bruce Jenner, and I am not going to call Bruce Jenner Caitlyn Jenner, no matter how he or the others who support his transgenderism may insist upon that, and Tucker Carlson all of a sudden morphed into a little girl, speaking of transgenderism, throwing softballs to Bruce Jenner.

01:17:52

And it was very obvious to me immediately that this man fears losing his job, which is an obvious or understandable thing.

01:18:01

I mean, most people, especially if they have careers that they love and they're making quite a wonderful income, they're going to fear losing their job.

01:18:11

But it was obvious to me that his fear overrode what he believed.

01:18:17

And we as Christians, I know it's already happening across the world and across this country, where Christians are compromising what they believe in regard to this specific issue of transgenderism or homosexuality or any of those words and labels that come underneath the umbrella that they use,

01:18:38

LBGTQ, and maybe there's even more letters in there that I'm missing. But isn't this something that we as the

01:18:47

Church of Jesus Christ, we have to be prepared to stand up for what the

01:18:52

Bible teaches about sexuality, what God commands about sexuality, regardless of the outcome.

01:18:59

And it's not only, first and foremost, obviously, to honor God and obey God, but secondly, and very importantly, nonetheless, it's for the having compassion over the never -dying souls of men who are involved in damning activities.

01:19:15

And in fact, the Bible not only says that those who are involved in homosexual activity unrepentantly are damned, those who give them hearty approval are.

01:19:27

So if you could comment on that. Exactly. In fact, when you mentioned that,

01:19:32

I was thinking of Romans chapter 1 in my mind as well, that not only those who practice such things, but those who give an approval of it will face the judgment as well.

01:19:42

And then my mind also went to Ephesians chapter 5. He's dealing with the topic of sexual morality, and this is a text where Paul stands up to the

01:19:53

Church and says to them that not only are we not to have anything to do with these things, but we're to expose the darkness.

01:20:02

And that calls us to a state of action, not silence. So it's not only that we don't agree with it, but we don't sit in silence in regards to what's being done.

01:20:14

And you could point this to the area of abortion or homosexuality, all of the sins of American people that we as Christians are not only asked not to say anything about, we're being asked to celebrate these things, and we need to be a people who fear

01:20:33

God and not fear men. And I think one of the things that will help us do that,

01:20:38

Chris, is to keep in mind something else Jesus taught in John chapter 5, that there's only one that we will give an account to.

01:20:48

Jesus says that the Father has given him authority to judge, and I know that united to Christ through faith that we will not face the judgment he's speaking of here, but we have to remember who the judge is and who we represent, whose ambassador we are.

01:21:06

This life is not our own, and especially us who have been called by the Lord to get up and proclaim these truths, we have to help our people see that we need to be a people who stand up, share truth, expose the darkness by proclaiming the truth of the life of Jesus Christ.

01:21:26

By the way, I have to make a quick disclaimer. Although I am confident Tucker Carlson believes that it is morally wrong to have any kind of transgender transformation, whether through drugs or surgery,

01:21:44

I'm not 100 % sure of that, but I know for certain that he opposes the groupthink that he claims he opposes even in his opening or closing announcements, that he is a champion against groupthink, and one of the biggest ways that people succumb to groupthink today is to, out of fear of retribution by the gay leftist totalitarianism that surrounds us, that we all shake our heads in an approving fashion and smile and celebrate homosexuality in all of its forms because we don't want to be condemned by others and we don't want to lose our jobs and all kinds of things, and so that's the key way that I know

01:22:35

Tucker Carlson was not the Tucker Carlson we have been used to.

01:22:41

He was very skillful and aggressive when debating his opponents. In fact, I know that he would be opposed to the

01:22:48

United States Olympic Committee apparently being unconcerned that there are men entering into women's athletic competitions and winning because they just think that they're women.

01:23:02

They're being allowed to participate in these things, but I'm going to go to our final break right now just because I don't want to interrupt you mid -sentence.

01:23:11

This will be the last break of the day, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Jesse Barrington regarding fearing

01:23:18

God more than man, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:23:23

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and you know what I'm going to read you the same question that I read from a listener to our first guest because I think it actually applies to a degree to what we were talking about.

01:23:42

I have a listener, John in New York, and I'll read you the question and then you can answer it when we return.

01:23:50

This will give you some time to think about it. Now I'll also email you the question, Jesse, so you have it right in front of you.

01:23:57

He says, my name is John from New York. This is a little bit of a sensitive issue, so if you could keep my location out of it except it being

01:24:07

New York. I'm currently a member of an Assemblies of God church, and while the pastor is faithful and tries his best to pastor the church,

01:24:15

I find myself at odds with the doctrines of the Assemblies of God. As of last year around October 2016,

01:24:22

I affirmed the doctrines of grace as biblical and started to disagree with distinctives of the

01:24:27

Assemblies of God denomination and Pentecostalism as a movement, both of which the pastor holds to as per his training and tradition.

01:24:35

Stuff like continuationism of the sign gifts, the over -focus on healing rather than endurance, and the

01:24:44

Arminianthology are consistent hang -ups. Moreover, I disagree with the direction the church is going, being a little too seeker -sensitive and sacrificing the truth of the

01:24:53

Bible in tiny steps. In general, I find myself moving toward the Reformed Baptist tradition, but that is a separate thing

01:25:00

I'm working on. Anyway, do you have any advice on how to break it to my pastor that I no longer affirm the

01:25:06

Assemblies of God traditions? It seems like a hard thing to tell him by any account, and I want to do it in the most

01:25:14

God -honoring and wise way. Thank you, John. So I'm going to now send this.

01:25:19

I'm going to email this to you, Jesse, this question, so you have it right in front of you, and we will have your answer to this when we return.

01:25:30

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:25:37

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:25:43

USA. And of course, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

01:25:49

Don't go away. We are going to be back after these messages with more of Jesse Barrington and our subject at hand, fearing

01:25:59

God more than man. Do not go away. I am

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01:33:29

Welcome back. This is Chris Orrins. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the second half of today's program with about a little less than a half hour to go is

01:33:39

Pastor Jesse Barrington. He is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

01:33:45

Our theme has been and will continue to be fearing God more than man.

01:33:52

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorrinsen at gmail .com. chrisorrinsen at gmail .com.

01:33:57

And before the break, Jesse, as you know, I emailed you and I read to you the question of a

01:34:05

New York listener, John, who wants to break the news to his

01:34:10

Assemblies of God pastor that he has to leave or he wants to leave because of the incompatibility of what he has come to believe and embrace as truth, the doctrines of sovereign grace and cessationism in regard to the sign gifts.

01:34:26

And he wants to do it in a correct and appropriate way. I thought that our first guest gave a very good answer, but the question actually lends itself to be more compatible with our topic right now, so I figured

01:34:39

I'd ask you that question as well. It's a great question, Chris, and pastorally it's a difficult question.

01:34:48

I'll say what I mean by that. I just took all the men in our church through a four -week study on how to handle doctrinal differences that are non -salvific, and it's a really big question.

01:35:04

Dr. Moeller wrote an article on this a while back, and he talked about what he called spiritual triage.

01:35:11

And if you have a catastrophic event, you have a triage center set up, and what he mentioned in there is that the purpose of the triage is to organize which you're going to deal with first, which gets greater priority.

01:35:28

And I think this is something that we need to do individually, is think doctrinally about the different doctrines that we hold to, and think about, okay, which of these do

01:35:42

I need to divide over, and which of these do I become, you know, forbearing with my brother?

01:35:50

One warning on that side of dividing, and there are times to divide, but one warning on that is this.

01:35:58

Once you begin going down the path of dividing over non -salvific doctrines, you have to ask the question, when does this end?

01:36:07

And we all like to be with people who affirm our beliefs. It's more comfortable that way, it's easier that way, and quite honestly, it doesn't require genuine love, because everyone's affirming you.

01:36:20

Now, specifically to the question here asked, that was asked, a couple things I would say.

01:36:25

Number one is, many of us who hold to Reformed theology were not saved in Reformed theology.

01:36:33

Most of us were probably saved in an Arminian type environment or church. As we begin to study our

01:36:39

Bibles more, we begin to see these truths by God's grace. So one thing I would say is this, is remember, as we come to the understanding of things like the doctrines of grace, that was graciously revealed to us by our

01:36:52

Lord, and so it should make us the most humble people in the world. Even amongst the body of Christ, those who understand the doctrines of grace by God's grace should be that much more humble, realizing they contributed nothing to their salvation but sin.

01:37:12

The first thing I would do with the pastor, though, if I'm in the church, is I would ask him to sit down with me.

01:37:17

I don't know if this guy has done that already. I would open up my Bible, I would share with them my convictions, and I would see how my pastor responded.

01:37:26

How does he deal with the convictions that I'm seeing? Not only, like, a verse here or there, but they begin to pop out everywhere.

01:37:33

How does he respond as you take him through different portions of Scripture? I think

01:37:40

I would also make a commitment in that meeting to let him know that you you're striving to not be divisive in the church.

01:37:48

You know, we have the body of Christ, not all of them are Reformed, and so we want to acknowledge that these are people who are bought by the blood of Jesus Christ.

01:37:58

We want to not divide the church unnecessarily, and so I would sit down with them,

01:38:05

I would let them know I'm trying not to be divisive, I'm seeing these truths, they're convicting me, causing a stirring in me,

01:38:12

I wanted to walk through them with you, and at the end, if it's still a place where they just adamantly disagree on these things, then

01:38:19

I might ask that pastor, what are your thoughts, knowing that I disagree with these, I don't want to be divisive in the church, what do you think

01:38:26

I should do? And ask him his opinion as well. I've had people do that, and on some doctrinal areas, there are areas where we say, you know what, that probably makes sense for you to find a body of believers that affirm that, and that can happen in a very gracious, non -divisive way.

01:38:46

In the area of the doctrines of grace, we are Reformed in our theology, and we have people in the church who are not quite there yet, and we love them in the

01:38:56

Lord, we're patient with them, they're patient with us, we don't beat them over the head with it, but we want them to see it because of the glory of God that's tied to it, and so as long as they're willing to keep their

01:39:08

Bibles open, and as long as they're not going to be divisive in the church, we would allow them to stay, but a lot of times they do end up believing, just because of the struggle of having to deal with the tension of it.

01:39:19

I would imagine this pastor would say to you in the end, this probably looks like something where we need to go our separate ways, and that can be done in a way that's not divisive or hurtful to that church, and so that's what

01:39:32

I would do. That's got to be a conviction of this man's heart, and the doctrines of grace, when we come to that revelation, it really does change so much that to be in a church environment that doesn't believe it would be very difficult,

01:39:47

I agree with that. Yeah, and obviously, although he may not wish to be divisive, if he can't keep his mouth shut about what he now believes is the truth, it's best for him to leave, because there's nothing worse than someone who's constantly trying to undermine the teaching of the pastor, and if you're in a position, however, where you believe the pastor is very wrong, it's not really a healthy thing to remain, because you're going to wind up creating enemies between yourself and the leaders of the church, and I'm sure you would agree with that, that if this person is going to be sitting in a pew week after week hearing things that make his skin crawl, he's not going to be able to keep silent about it, and so I agree that he must be humble when he approaches his pastor, as our first guest,

01:40:44

Pastor Steve Kareloff, said that he is not to have a bull in a china shop kind of attitude when he's facing his pastor, where he acts as if he is now the teacher and the pastor is the disciple or the congregant, and be too aggressive in that area where he is behaving like a know -it -all, if you follow what

01:41:09

I'm saying. I do, and Chris, I don't know if you could relate to this. I can relate to this, and I see this in many people in the church, whether it's in the

01:41:19

Church of Grace Life or other churches, when someone comes under the revelation by grace of the doctrines of grace,

01:41:25

God's sovereignty and salvation. Unfortunately, it doesn't have to be this way, but it seems to be a trend where most genuine believers come to the revelation, and they almost go through this time of spiritual pride, where like you said, they feel like, okay, it's my responsibility to make this known to everybody or expose everyone who doesn't believe it.

01:41:45

Are you speaking of cage -stage Calvinism? That would be a good term for it, and I try to warn the people, you know, especially when someone's coming under that, to say, listen, these are glorious truths.

01:42:00

We are excited about them, but at the same time, we should be the most humble people in regards to these, and so you've got to be careful, and I would agree, if he's at a place, and it would be hard not to be, where you can't not say things, then quietly, humbly, in love, meet with your pastor, and let me just say that real quick.

01:42:25

Mack Tomlinson and I were having a conversation the other day that we need to preach a sermon on how to leave a church biblically if you believe you need to leave, and so do it in a quiet way.

01:42:38

Do meet with your pastor. Don't just send an email. Sit down with them and meet with them.

01:42:44

Look them in the eye. This man has been a soul watcher over you and cares for you and loves you.

01:42:50

Don't take to social media after you leave. Unfortunately, we see often in many places where people will leave a church over a disagreement, and then they go to social media, and I can't think of anything more divisive or just wrong for the

01:43:09

Christian to do to go out there and begin to slander a brother or sister or church in the name of Christ.

01:43:15

That's just not how we do that, and so avoid those things, be above reproach, and be humble.

01:43:23

Yeah, and of course, the cage -stage Calvinists can be quite annoying, even to Calvinists, because we are very often embarrassed by them, and I can still remember vividly a member of the congregation where I was a member, which was a

01:43:39

Reformed Baptist church, and this person who had come out of Arminianism and became a

01:43:45

Calvinist pit bull but had more zeal than wisdom or more zeal than knowledge.

01:43:51

I can remember him after a service saying, can you believe what the pastor said from the pulpit? He actually talked about choosing

01:43:57

God, and I said, did you know that he was quoting from Joshua 24? Choose whom you will serve, choose this day whom you will serve, and you know,

01:44:09

I mean, these words are in the Bible. Calvinists believe that we do choose.

01:44:18

The question is that when and how do we choose correctly? We all choose freely to sin all the time, and when we actually choose

01:44:29

God as the one whom we will serve, it is done so because the

01:44:34

Holy Spirit regenerates us first, and we have open eyes and unplug the ears and new hearts.

01:44:41

So it's not that we don't choose, but it's that we need a miracle of heart transformation before we can choose rightly.

01:44:51

Amen, brother. And let's see, we have another listener.

01:44:57

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who wants to know if you could define the fear of God to begin with.

01:45:05

I have heard Christians say that we should not even be afraid of God at all, if you could comment.

01:45:12

Yeah, well, there's a fear of the Lord in regards to who the Lord is, and so even though we by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are accepted by God, we are loved by God, there's an awe, there's a fear of the

01:45:28

Lord in regards to who He is, His worth, His holiness, His separateness, that should not go away.

01:45:38

We should, and it seems almost paradoxical, there's that fear of the Lord, and yet we come boldly before the throne, and so those are things that are both in Scripture, kind of like we just talked about, the responsibility of man and the sovereignty of God in salvation.

01:45:54

We would affirm that men need to repent and believe. We just see that God works through sovereign grace to bring that about.

01:46:02

Well, those are both true in Scripture. We don't let one of those cancel out the other, and the fear of the

01:46:07

Lord and the acceptance and being a child of God do not cancel each other out either.

01:46:15

And timmy, I think, is the word that J .R. Packer uses in Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. How do you reconcile that the

01:46:23

Christian should fear the Lord at the same time they're a child of God and can come boldly into the throne of the

01:46:29

Lord? Well, we don't reconcile friends, as J .R. Packer said. Those things are both true.

01:46:35

We should fear the Lord and His reverential fear, the awe of who He is, of who we once were, of what we deserve, and we find comfort and grace coming into that bold throne room as His child, and knowing that we have been reconciled and we are perfectly loved by God.

01:46:54

So we can't allow two truths in Scripture to erase each other, even if we can't fully reconcile them.

01:47:04

Amen. And I guess you would agree, I'm assuming you would agree, that when it is an inappropriate fear, when it is an unbiblical fear of God, it manifests itself in staying away from Him, not approaching

01:47:22

Him. There are people, as you know, who have such a self -awareness of their wretchedness, who may have been involved in sins far more grievous than those that you and I have ever committed.

01:47:38

They may even be on death row, and they may be guilty as charged and completely aware that they are evil, and when a chaplain comes by their cell or something, and they just say, hey,

01:47:52

God is never going to forgive me. Just keep him away from me. I know I'm going to hell. There's no use.

01:48:00

You're wasting your time telling me about this God of love and so on. He can't love me. That's when a fear would be inappropriate and exaggerated and a caricature.

01:48:12

Yes. Yes. You think of this, Chris, and I go back here often. Remember David's sin with Bathsheba and his prayer confession in Psalm 51?

01:48:23

Remember the basis in verse 1 that he comes back to the Lord on? He says, have mercy on me,

01:48:30

O God, and then he doesn't come and say, let me earn my way back to you, let me clean myself up a little bit.

01:48:37

He pleads for mercy, and the beautiful thing of this statement is the basis of that mercy.

01:48:43

Have mercy on me, O God, according to what? Your steadfast love.

01:48:49

And so this brings us back to this glorious truth of the basis of God's love for the believer.

01:48:57

And I love Deuteronomy chapter 7, when he's talking and he says, you're a holy people, holy people, for you are people holy to your

01:49:06

God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession. Out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth, and verse 7 he gives the reason, it's not because you're more in number than any other people the

01:49:18

Lord has set his love upon you or chose you, for you are the fewest of all people, but it's because the

01:49:24

Lord loves you. And if we can begin to grasp that at a level, that God's love for his people is not founded in them, and if it's not based on our performance, then that love does not diminish based on our performance, even as born -again

01:49:49

Christians now, and that love does not increase based on our performance. And we can't allow the people who are using the word love of God or love loosely to steal what true love is.

01:50:05

When we grasp that this holy God, and I think Paul Washer said this, one of the hardest things for the

01:50:12

Christians to believe is to look in the mirror and see their continued imperfections and believe that God loves them.

01:50:20

Now if we're talking to a man that says, great, let me continue in my sin, we're talking to an unconverted man.

01:50:25

But when you're talking to a man like you wrote about, who's struggling to see God's love for him when he looks at himself, and that's the problem.

01:50:35

If you look at yourself, you can't see God's love for you, because his love for you is not founded in you or your performance.

01:50:41

His love for you is founded in him, and he willingly sets it upon you. And when you begin to grasp that truth and return to that truth, and that's the basis for which you keep coming in your continued repentance and continued faith, there is such hope given to the very imperfect believer like me who needs that mercy based on steadfast love every day.

01:51:06

Amen. I want to make sure that you have several minutes uninterrupted right now to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:51:18

Well, I would say this, you know, in regards to the Gospel, the Fellowship Conference coming to New England, why are we going to New England?

01:51:27

I would say this, we want to come and preach the Gospel in an area where we don't see a lot of happening, and I know there are things happening, but here's what we need,

01:51:37

Chris. We need a return to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. One of the things we have to understand as we're talking about this sphere of man is that when

01:51:47

Paul came to the church of Corinth, he said, brothers, I did not come to you proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.

01:51:55

He said, for I have decided there is nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And I want to encourage all of us and exhort all of us to believe in the power of the

01:52:09

Gospel, to believe in the grace of the Gospel, not to try to come with wise and persuasive words to win the approval of man, but rather to come in faith in the

01:52:20

Gospel of Jesus Christ. And Paul says, I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message was not in plausible words of wisdom.

01:52:30

We have to embrace the reality of what Jesus has told us. If we desire to live godly lives, obedient to Christ, we will face persecution.

01:52:41

Our message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not going to be received well by man.

01:52:48

We come in faith believing that, as it says at the end of 1 Corinthians 2, that when the

01:52:55

Spirit comes and power comes, that that glorious message of Jesus Christ crucified, buried, and resurrected awakens people, and that word no longer comes in word only, but a demonstration of power.

01:53:09

And so let's be a people committed to the clear biblical preaching and teaching of the

01:53:14

Gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's be a people committed that we need the increase of the

01:53:20

Holy Spirit, and we demonstrate a faith in that by praying that God would bring an increase to the preaching, and that by the fear of God we would not be a people who cater to our culture and diminish the

01:53:34

Gospel, but rather be a people who fear the Lord as ambassadors of Jesus Christ, and we protect.

01:53:41

We are that buttress, pillar of truth, protecting the Gospel, and we proclaim it in faith, looking to God to bring the increase for His glory.

01:53:50

Amen. Well, once again, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the information they need not only to attend this conference, but also to attend services at Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

01:54:03

First of all, the Fellowship Conference New England, which is being held August 3rd through the 5th in Portland, Maine.

01:54:12

You can find out more details about that, and you can register for that at fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:54:21

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. For Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, go to gracelifedallas .org,

01:54:27

gracelifedallas .org. Also, if you are intending to attend the

01:54:36

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology this weekend, along with my co -host

01:54:42

Rev. Buzz Taylor and I, where we will be manning an exhibitor's booth, we would love to see you.

01:54:49

Make sure that you greet us at the exhibitor's booth if you have not yet looked into all the details about this, because even though the pre -registration discounts are now closed, you can walk in and register the very day of the conference.

01:55:06

If you want more information on this, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

01:55:12

and the theme of the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology this year is Reformation, Recovering the

01:55:17

Essence of the Gospel. That features speakers such as Carl Truman, Richard Phillips, Daniel Doriani, and others.

01:55:26

As I said, that's going to be held April 28th through the 30th this weekend at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

01:55:35

Go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org. Also, this weekend, if you live on Long Island or close by, and you would rather go to a conference on Long Island, my friends at New York Apologetics, Anthony Uvinio and his colleague

01:55:53

Nick Mitchell, who are founders of New York Apologetics, are having the Dare to Defend conference this weekend,

01:56:00

Friday, April 28th, 7 to 9 p .m., and Saturday, April 29th, 9 a .m. to 4 p .m.,

01:56:06

featuring Greg Kokel, Frank Turek, and Mary Jo Sharp. It's going to be held at the

01:56:12

Smithtown Christian School, and for more details on that, go to newyorkapologetics .com,

01:56:18

newyorkapologetics .com. When you register, if you use the discount code

01:56:24

IRON, I -R -O -N, for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, that's I -R -O -N,

01:56:29

IRON, you will get $10 off your registration fee. So that's newyorkapologetics .com,

01:56:35

newyorkapologetics .com, and you spell out the words New York. Do not abbreviate them. Last but not least,

01:56:42

I hope that many of you join me at the Banner of Truth 2017

01:56:49

U .S. Ministers Conference, going to be held this May 30th through June 1st, and the conference theme is

01:56:55

The Living and Enduring Word. Speakers include Joel Beeky, Jeff Thomas, William Vanderwerd, Mark Johnston, Jonathan Master, and Carlton Nguyen, and Ian Hamilton.

01:57:09

This is for leaders in the church only, pastors, deacons, and others. You can go to banneroftruth .org,

01:57:17

banneroftruth .org. The U .S. Ministers Conference is being held in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabethtown College, and so if you'd like to go to that, please go to banneroftruth .org

01:57:30

and click on Events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference. If you live in the United Kingdom, as many of our listeners do, please click on U .K.

01:57:40

Conference or U .K. Ministers Conference. There are several of them. In fact, I got an email today from an

01:57:46

Iron Sharpens Iron listener in Wales who said, Do you recognize this guy? And he was standing there with his arm around one of my elders at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who is in the

01:57:57

U .K. at one of the Banner of Truth U .K. Ministers Conferences. Even though he's from here in the

01:58:04

States, he went to that conference. So I hope to see you there at the U .S.

01:58:09

Ministers Conference for the Banner of Truth. Banneroftruth .org is the website to find out more information.

01:58:16

And last but not least, please remember to keep Iron Sharpens Iron in your prayers. If you have funds to donate to Iron Sharpens Iron to keep us on the air, please send in a check made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a check of any amount.

01:58:31

Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com and click on Support to find the mailing address where you can send that check.

01:58:41

And also, if you'd like to advertise with us, whether you are a pastor of a church, leader of a parachurch organization, whether you are a business owner, a corporate executive, a professional person like a lawyer, a dentist, a doctor, a chiropractor, and you want to advertise your firm, or you're having a special event, you're having a

01:59:03

Bible conference or something like that, email me at chrisarnson at gmail dot com and put advertising in the subject line.

01:59:11

Well, thank you again, Pastor Jesse Barrington. I look forward to having you back on Iron Sharpens Iron and hopefully for two hours next time.

01:59:18

I would appreciate that. I'll be praying for your brother, John. Great, and if you want to hold on the line, I'd like to schedule another interview with you, if you don't mind.

01:59:25

Sure. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:32

Savior than you are a sinner. Please keep Reverend Buzz Taylor and I in prayer as we go to the