A Meandering Discussion of Eternal Punishment, Hell, Conditionalism and Gnosticism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:39

All right, we're gonna try this again. We started a little while ago. I'll be watching Twitter fairly closely to see if anyone

00:47

Tells us we still got a problem. We reset everything at least I think we reset everything Other than the actual link to YouTube, right?

00:59

Okay, so we hopefully if that doesn't do it then something got fried and that's not a that's not a good thing so I'll keep an eye open on on Twitter here a little bit and maybe somebody can tell us if if things sound okay, or if if we're

01:17

Still not the same link sounds good. Okay, so that's That's that's important real quickly

01:25

And I start a timer so I can still we can still get that proximately the right time

01:32

Just Real quickly We will have Milo Hudson Buehler on on Monday join us for some enjoyable time at that Yes, this is a new record week for us

01:44

Depending on how long we go today eight and a half to nine hours of dividing line webcasts this week

01:50

That's that's enough for any trucker on the road. I think personally But yeah, we've been we've been covering some

01:59

In -depth stuff and I Realize that's not for everybody and I I get it, but we want to provide something that is unique that no one else is providing and So that's we've been doing obviously what

02:17

I just started talking about when we got word that stuff wasn't wasn't working I Had been looking at a topic was going to be discussing a topic when everything was sort of taken over by The the

02:35

Wilson flowers Discussion which has allowed us to do what I enjoy doing.

02:40

I mean you got to do what you enjoy doing and and what you have some facility to do and Church history and theology and apologetics

02:53

Yeah, we've been doing that for a long time now and so That's what we've done and it's sort of pushed this other subject out of the way

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But I want to start off with this discussion today

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And I want to try to do so In a way that will again be edifying to people

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Challenging thought -provoking Useful in the long run, but this is a very very very difficult subject to address and It is one that in my opinion the vast majority of Christians who hold a who have a position in this area and almost everybody does

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Do so without ever having been challenged to think through the why's and wherefores and As I mentioned

03:59

I forget I didn't look up the date but a

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Number of weeks ago. I think it was over a month ago might have been longer. I don't know all of us have sort of lost track of time since February it may have been in February.

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I reviewed a Short video from Bart Ehrman Where he you know, it's one of these really fancy put stuff up on the screen, you know

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Really communicative type things short to the point bullet points type thing

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Where he was talking about heaven and hell And I put up his various points and Responded to some of the things that he was that he was saying and At the end of that discussion of Bart Ehrman I Then tacked on some thoughts

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From over the years really going all the way back. I forget what year it was

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When I did Well, I know I I spoke on this subject at Sovereign Grace Bible Church at a conference years ago on the subject of Annihilationism and Conditionalism and that was after I had done a

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A Well, it wasn't a formal debate so I I tried to be careful the utilization of that term but a online discussion with two a

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British couple husband and wife on the subject of Conditionalism annihilationism

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Unfortunately, it is a very varied field You have a lot of different perspectives amongst people in that group and there's not a lot they actually agree on So You have to almost every person you're talking to you is gonna have their own spin on it as to exactly

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What that is supposed to mean? but the idea That they were promoting

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Was fundamentally a rejection on their part on the unbelievable broadcast was pretty much a rejection on their part of the idea of eternal punishment

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That punishment must be Limited in time and Hence would well again depends on he talked to I I don't remember their conclusion to be honest with them

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I've never gone back and listened to the program But some people have the idea

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That The only punishment is Death so You're resurrected.

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A lot of them would not believe that there's a conscious existence after death. There is a resurrection

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Reestablishment of consciousness judgment and immediate Annihilation So in that situation, you know in our in our days we

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Utilize and I and I think we should start changing this

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In the West we tend to use Hitler as the embodiment of evil, but he was actually an amateur

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If you want the embodiment of evil you look at Stalin You look at the killing fields you look at Mao If you really if you want big league multi -multi multi -million murders type evil

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Stalin's a good Good one to go for so Stalin Dies in This scenario

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Basically ceases to exist sleeps does not experience is not kept under punishment

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Or some would say maybe he is Again, there's all sorts of different perspectives here

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So for some some he ceases to exist Basically others he's under he's kept under punishment as Peter puts it

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Until the day of resurrection at the resurrection Judgment is you know, he's not in Lamb's Book of Life So judgment is pronounced upon him and He is annihilated.

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There is there the only suffering the only fulfillment of the Greek term basanas moss

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Would be the suffering of the penalty there is no even though he inflicted

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Continuous long -term suffering upon millions of people starved millions of people to death

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Tortured millions of people. He will never be tortured. He will never Suffer for the things he did what he suffers is simply

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Annihilation cessation of consciousness gone others

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So from that point you can you've got that perspective but then others would say no there is a period of Suffering that is commensurate with the fulfillment of the law in reference to the amount of Evil that person committed in their life.

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So there is a period of suffering that would be commensurate with The evil that person did so obviously a person who dies young doesn't do as much evil over their lives

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Would have a shorter period of suffering and then annihilated others longer period of suffering and then annihilated

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So you've got that that it's the second group first group is there's no suffering at all.

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Just death is the penalty Annihilation gone that perspective assumes that death and annihilation are pretty much the same thing

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Then you've got others who would say Judgment is proclaimed but Christ is going to reconcile all things and so the universalist or the inclusivist or all those other groups that would have post -mortem opportunities of Repentance and and everything else.

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They have to be fit in somewhere into that paradigm as well

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So that there is an opportunity either an opportunity for final redemption or then the final rejection and then annihilation because what is what unites pretty much all of it together is there there just simply cannot be a a

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Situation where a human being is And this is their terminology made immortal or even given eternal life even that's certainly not the

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New Testament use of eternal life given eternal life so as to be punished so What do you do there?

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How does that interface with the fulfillment of God's law? Well, how do you how do you deal with this how does how does that function so One of the issues that You know, so backing up a bit so what

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I was doing and responding to Ehrman is I was pointing out that in most of what

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Bart Ehrman said He was coming from A fully understandable position and that is that In essence there can't be a meaningful doctrine of heaven and hell

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Given that you don't have a divine revelation from God There is no consistency

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Between Old Testament New Testament between Old Testament authors and other

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Old Testament authors Consistency between New Testament writers There is inconsistency within Paul you know all the things that that Ehrman has attempted to establish and that the vast majority as I sadly have to report to you over and over again the vast majority of theological seminaries and the like Teach on a daily basis.

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I guess well, the only positive things come out of the pandemic is that That teaching has been interrupted a little bit in the in the leftist liberal

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Seminaries, but then again the truth has been to so anyway If you if you don't believe that scripture is consistent with itself

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You can't come up with a meaningful conclusion. You can't you know, you just there you just have to recognize

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That's the way things gonna be so That's what I was addressing is

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I was addressing the issue of Where Bart Ehrman's gonna be coming from in this book and Why it reaches the conclusions that it that it that it reaches and then at the end.

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I added on a Exhortation to believers to think through To have a theology that's something more than What you picked up from some firebrand preacher once or from watching movies?

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because the reality is most in my opinion most Western Christians have a doctrine of heaven and hell

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That was never derived from any meaningful interpretation of scripture it was derived from movies and stories and sermon illustrations and In many ways is more connected to the viewpoints of ancient

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Greeks The medieval period in Roman Catholicism than it is

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That then it could ever be defended in a meaningful fashion from the page of the scripture because much of what we have to affirm in regards to judgment and To the nature of the eschaton and Mankind's Disposition therein has to be derived from our soteriology and There's a whole lot of bad soteriology out there right now so it's not surprising if most of your people if most of your people have a an emotionally based concept of the cross and atonement

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Then you're gonna have an emotionally based concept of the final judgment and punishment, too

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So over the years I have repeatedly said It's not that I've made it a big issue but I have repeatedly said that this is an extremely difficult area and That It requires

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Serious contemplation rather than just simply Embracing a tradition.

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I've said that many times So at the end of the program I put out some thoughts specifically in regards to the objection

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That you can't have eternal punishment based upon temporal sin That is

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It I can't tell you how many people over the years that I have heard who abandoned a traditional understanding of heaven and hell and The concept of an eternal separation from God Then involves the

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Greek term is basanas mas, torment They've abandoned that because they come to the conclusion it is fundamentally unjust it just simply cannot be squared

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You can't have 60 years of evil resulting in 60 million years of punishment, so The normal response by the way to people on that on that subject is

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But it was God's honor and God's law that was broken and Since there is

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Since his dignity and the value of his law is infinite

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Then the punishment has to fit the crime Now, I think there is validity in discussing that I just don't think the vast majority of evangelicals have a theology that's significantly

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Theocentric enough to substantiate Accepting and believing that and living on the basis of that.

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I Just don't I'm I I wish I could say otherwise, but the fact of the matter is so much of Evangelicalism is so man -centered has such a low view of God's law

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Then to turn around and say yeah, but the worth of his law that Don't even

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I'm sorry But if you've never even read it, how can you say it's worth that much? Just have to be honest at that point and the same thing with you know,

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God's holiness and and it's sounds great and Evidently a lot of folks go.

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Yeah, that's good enough for me But I'm just not sure that's really what people are actually actually saying

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So that's what a lot of people say is it's it's an it was an infinite cost and of course

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You can't make the argument Christ had to pay an infinite price, but then you go. Well, why was

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Why was the price paid by Christ infinite? Because his

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He was only he gave his life voluntarily

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He did not cease to exist a lot of these conditionalist annihilationist folks end up being

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Into the not a you know, soul sleep And I you know non -existence type stuff but again, there's all sorts of Division even amongst the folks that promote this stuff as to exactly where they land on all that but It was only one life that was given it wasn't an infinite number of lives that were given and so What is said was but he was the

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God man and so as the God man the giving of his life has infinite value

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And you can start seeing where atonement and this subject start meeting up When you're finally pushed to think through these things, but again over the years

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I've repeatedly said we we are not comfortable having our theology of punishment and our theology of atonement and our theology of Evangelism for example forced into close connection to one another

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Because you start going What about that so the argument that I Made back on unbelievable and Have since then was primarily against this argument on the part of people who would say

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Punishment cannot be eternal but still believe that punishment is appropriate and that Punishment would involve something more than mere annihilation

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So if you if you adopt the idea that the punishment is

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Annihilation Then I really wasn't addressing that particular argument. I be honest.

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I have a lot more respect for the people who recognize that There must be that that letting

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Stalin Live as long as he lived Torturing millions of people on purpose knowingly and Then he dies of a heart attack

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Next thing he knows he's staying in judgment and next thing he knows he knows nothing. He's gone He got it easy his victims

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Did not but he gets it real easy. I Mean that's like, you know

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That you know if you can consider that to be justice Okay, and I wasn't arguing that particular point.

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I wasn't arguing against that position I have much more respect for the person who says no there obviously there there there has to be an appropriate

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Punishment in light of the evil that was done instant Non -existence

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For people who caused others to suffer is not punishment So that's what

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I was responding to and my argument had to do with why do we assume that the person who dies?

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ceases to sin in other words

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When we think about death we assume that sin ends When you take your last breath

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But if you believe in the spiritual nature of man if You look at something like Luke chapter 16 you see that while the spiritual nature of man could be such that he all sudden realizes the foolishness of his physical life as the rich man did

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That is not going to change that individual outside of adding to their knowledge

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There will be knowledge gained in death. Once you're dead.

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You're not gonna be confused as to which religion is, right? You know, you're not gonna be sitting around going.

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Well, you know the Mormons say this and the Jehovah's Witnesses isn't a Manichaeist Well, they said that and you got the

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Buddhists and you got the Muslims and you know, you're not gonna have any of that there's gonna be perfect clarity as to what the truth is, but There seems to be an assumption on the part of many people

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That What happens is Instant sanctification soon as you die even the lost even the unregenerate are

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Sanctified to where they stop sinning. Well, may I point out as long as you are not in Submission to the

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Lordship of Jesus Christ you're in rebellion and so The person who dies is still in rebellion they're not in right relationship to God so My whole point was to say if that's the case then that relationship remains ruptured and What's more is now the restraint that has been exercised in withholding the evil of man is removed and I suggested in light of that that the bassanas moss the suffering the torment is

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Separation from envy anything that you can express your hatred toward God on Except for yourself

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You're the only thing left. There's gonna be no parties in hell Gary Larson has lots and lots of funny

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Farsight cartoons, you know, he's got the one where you know You've got terrorists and mass murderers and then the devil's putting people into the last room

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Which is for people who drove slowly in the fast lane But there's always lots of people around and there's lots of company

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Um That's not the way it's gonna be Not that it not not that Gary was really attempting to be a theological

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Guide post there. But anyway That's not the way it's gonna be you you are alone You're consumed with your hatred and that's why

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I suggested I don't think God has to expend Whatever however you define

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Energy for God Having Demons chasing people around through the pitch -black with pitchforks.

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I no need for any of that So I presented this idea and I Said at that time.

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I said someone's gonna respond to this and I was referring to Chris date and We have

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Chris date did a debate with Layton flowers a while back.

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I think it was was it on unbelievable. I remember No, I don't think it was well, maybe

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I don't know He has put stuff out over the number of years

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I remember It was probably what 2006 seven eight somewhere in there.

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I don't remember now when It's right, that's around 2007

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I actually looked it up when I was on his program I think Doing a debate with a

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Unitarian it was a very pitched debate With Unitarian on passages like Colossians 1 and Philippians 2 and the key

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Texts on the deity of Christ and then I think right around that time is when

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I heard a Webcast he was doing where he had run into fudges material now if you're not familiar with fudges the biggest name in the conditionalist

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Annihilationist camp and I could tell by what I was listening to That this was this was direction he was going not most of the time once you hear somebody talking about something

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Yeah, okay my yeah my phone or my watch that's pretty cool I mean,

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I feel like Dick Tracy here. I'll go I'll go now has access to my watch that's

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Yes, well, so I'll go just sent me a link to The unbelievable broadcast with that so there you go, so there's there's the confirmation.

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That's pretty fast isn't that cool That's that's that's pretty wild That you can do stuff like that anyway

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So I could tell that that were that Chris Tate was going that direction well He did I think a couple years later.

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He debated someone from our chat channel rages kiss on This the nature of hell or punishment or something along those lines

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The funny thing is here as I'm thinking about this I'm remembering where I was writing when

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I was listening to these things so for some reason the webcast where he started to talk about Fudge and stuff like that and had

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I think he had him on at some point I was riding on the canal over near 7th

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Street, and they hadn't put the underpass in yet So it was quiet as well back And then I was over on 32nd

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Street Over toward the mountains there when I was listening to the debate with razors kiss and stuff like that So it's just how things work in my mind is remember where those things were

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So the situation that developed was

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I said someone's gonna talk about this and I was right and so I Downloaded the video response

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And I started listening to it and He was talking about how disappointed he was because he's such a big fan that I had never responded to stuff that he had said before and He made reference to a

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Podcast and so I wrote down the number of the podcast Tracked it down and basically what he was doing was reading an article that he had published

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So I Listened to him reading the article.

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I downloaded the article in written form as well And So I had just listened to that and Found it interesting

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You know, there were a lot of things to respond to in that that I that I felt were Were highly questionable, but it was interesting, but it didn't what

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I didn't understand is what he was saying Is we respond all your stuff before why we've refuted you before? Why are you why are you not dealing with this?

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and I'm like, yeah, but There wasn't really anything in this article that I found overly challenging and it certainly wasn't addressing what

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I had specifically stated and so I I felt like I had listened to that before I then listened so I went back got that and had just gotten to the point where I was getting ready to do the rest of it when the

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Wilson stuff hit and the coronavirus stuff hit and so on so forth. So I've listened to the rest of The video and so this is sort of a

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Personal message to Chris date, but hopefully the previous discussion has been challenging you to think through Just just a couple weird things is it it started off with a bunch of material from our chat channel someone had

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Come into our chat show. I actually remember this. I think I was in on this computer And had said something about it and then somebody who knows who had passed that stuff along to Chris date now if you

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If we still had a chat channel, we do not that chat channel doesn't exist anymore If we if we did whoever did that would have been banned because that's called trolling and I'll have to admit that Using stuff from sources like that where you're chatting with people

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Did not in any way shape or form encourage me as to the the benefit of future interactions

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That's just that's class a trolling right there really is So leaving that aside then what happened is he started

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Working through the stuff that I said about ermine, but here's the problem all the way through He assumed

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I was talking about him rather than responding to Bart Ehrman and so he

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He responding to James White when I wasn't arguing against his position. I mean, for example at one point

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I Made reference to his saying Old Testament and Jesus Because there are clearly references to heaven and hell

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Outside of the Gospels and so he oh but let's let's start looking at all those and jumps off into those and all

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I was saying was Ermin is choosing his words because of what kind of presentation is gonna make and I know his

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Presentation is going to be an agnostics presentation and unbelievers presentation. That's not going to be

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Chris dates presentation So to assume and read into what I'm saying about Bart Ehrman and go

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Oh, but he's wrong about this and he's wrong about that was like That's pathetic What are you doing?

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And then I mentioned John and So he dives into the

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Gospel of John and is Is and none of this had anything to do with my responding to a quote -unquote

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Evangelical conditionalist I'm responding to Bart Ehrman This guy's listened to a lot of my debates probably not all of them, but a lot of them

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I Know my opponents. I'm going to respond to them in the context therein so I wouldn't do that knowing that Chris professes a high view of Scripture So so I was sitting here going how desperate are you?

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To engage me To pretend to be responding to me and then reading yourself into everything

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I'm saying about Bart Ehrman and the result was so much of what was said just didn't Had nothing to do with what

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I had actually been saying Then you know see see followers. I can go after the big guy.

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It was really disappointing really was Now there were some troubling things that were said in there

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I Didn't queue it up, but if you want to go look at 42 and a half minutes in I was really surprised when

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Chris was looking at the the Gospel of John and he looked at the text that refers to And they shall surely not die

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From John 8 as I recall and he was saying yeah, that's just um a that's a you know that that's just a that doesn't mean forever etc etc and I I was running as I was listening to this and I couldn't help but but think of Jesus words of John 10 28

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And I will give to them eternal life Kai um a

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Apollo and I iced on Iona What what oh?

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You're oh, okay. You're you're stirring. You're stirring something okay? I'm sitting there going What are you what in the world are you trying to signal me, and you're off drinking stuff, and I don't okay?

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I Give it your life, and they will never perish Now literally it's um a with a subjunctive

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Iced on Iona how How else could it be expressed?

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it was really concerning to me that there's such a an Emphasis and in fact

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I would say the the primary Concept I came away from the video listening the video with was imbalance

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Such an overemphasis in the one area because this has become the big area. I Mean if you can hear yourself and everything

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I'm saying about a secular agnostic guy This is you know not a lot of them, but not a lot about balancer, but It does seem that to Say well that doesn't mean eternally

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Has to fundamentally then bring into question The promise of eternal life as well

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Because you have um a they shall never perish I Mean that's the promise positively that defines what eternal life is in John 1028

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So I was really surprised when I when I heard that as like there's obviously more here that That I'm not seeing because what

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I discovered I think is that eventually Chris got around to the argument that I presented at the end of the review of ermine about sinning and The fact that you are not sanctified when you die and If I understood what he was saying

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It was it was not the clearest explanation, but if I understand what he was saying

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He doesn't he believes that the punishment is Simply death cessation of existence that there is no punishment, so it's

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So it's not his argument that Eternal punishment is unjust based upon The Injustice of the amount of times issue that I was talking about before which is one of the most common forms of Argumentation and so it sounded to me like what he was saying was no

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There's judgment and then the only punishment is cessation of existence annihilation

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Now in the process Well and and my my response that would be that really

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I think is Significantly more problematic than the person who recognizes

40:45

That that creates an injustice in and of itself But I if I'm understanding his position over against others, and I may have

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I Know I don't know if he's changed his position over the years. I don't know if there's been development.

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I don't know. I'm sorry Following that particular saga has not been my highest priority apologize, but I had understood that he did believe that there would be

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Punishment, but that it would be limited in duration followed by annihilation If I understood his response to me, that's not what he believes

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Okay, whatever but what was interesting was The things that were ascribed to me.

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Basically what he's saying is that what I believe is

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That the unrighteous dead are given eternal life that they are resurrected and made immortal so you can see that there is a

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Issue here about one of the key issues is When God creates man in his image is

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Man's spirit Intended to cease existence together with his body, so there is a lot of anthropological

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Discussion here as to what the nature of man is and in my experience

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Don't know if this is where he's coming from but my experience you have people who take the limited categories of Old Testament revelation

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Force them on the broader categories of New Testament revelation so that Indications such as That where I am they may be with me

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Which is better for me to remain with you or to die and be present with the

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Lord The idea of being present with the Lord in Paul's perspective The activity of the martyred souls.

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There's obviously more in The New Testament than there is in the

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Old Testament when it comes this issue And in fact most of what you have in the Old Testament scattered illusions that can only be

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Given much flesh once we look at New Testament revelation on the subject But even then

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There is significantly less biblical revelation on these subjects than the broad assumptions of most people assume there is

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Or there's a whole lot more broad assumptions that people have that doesn't actually have a biblical foundation to it.

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Let's put it that way So So what about this idea?

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That what we're actually saying. So you need to understand they're saying what they're actually saying is If you believe if you do not believe in conditionalism if you not believe that man's continued existence is conditioned upon the continued sustaining of his existence by God's power and So it's conditional upon what

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God is doing in regards to maintaining or not maintaining the existence of said person

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Then their argument is that everybody gets eternal life Everybody gets eternal life

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It's just a matter of where you get to do it and what you're going to be doing while you're doing it

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Okay, I didn't

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Refresh my water. So all I've got is my apple cider vinegar Which you get to go do whatever you want to do over there.

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I get you I see you see you folks. You just don't see what I have to deal with. You just you don't see it

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And and I and I understand that's okay anyway So, how do you respond to that?

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How do you respond to the accusation? That What we really believe is that everybody gets eternal life well you immediately see that that kind of accusation or statement is utilizing different meanings for what eternal life means because We have eternal life right now as believers in Christ and the unbelievers do not but they're still alive

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And so are we so there's obviously a different category isn't there John chapter 5 you've passed out of death into life right

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Eternal life is something we possess right now So is what we possess right now ever going to be given to The unregenerate.

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Well, of course not so to say that I believe That they will be given eternal life is to obviously

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Change the meaning of the phraseology to communicate something that Misrepresents what

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I would believe They're not given eternal life But they are placed under the judgment of God in the same condition.

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Well, they're under the judgment of God right now, right? the wrath of God is being revealed and then the the

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Petrine passages that they are kept under punishment until the Day of Judgment and then at the

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Day of Judgment You have the concept of basanas moss torment.

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So I'm not in any so there is no meaningful fashion whereby you can describe

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Simply the continued existence in rebellion from separation from absent of the life of God of an image bearer as Eternal life that is that is using it to mean one thing over here then using the exact same phrase over here and playing on Those two different contexts in a very invalid way, and I did not appreciate that for anybody to sit there and say

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James White is saying that the unregenerate are given eternal life is to DDDDDDDD you got

47:26

Stay away from the lighter. I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna bring it in here someday. I'm gonna remember

47:33

I'm gonna remember I would just suggest to you That if I have to keep dealing with Ken Wilson, you had better get a fire extinguisher right over You know where you got one close good.

47:44

All right, is it charged up? Most of ours check your fire extinguisher folks.

47:50

Most of them aren't even charged up anymore I hate to tell you that you've just seen it there. It's been sitting in your kitchen for 15 years.

47:55

It's dead When you need it, you ain't gonna have it. So check it check it out anyway

48:03

That was misrepresentational Obviously the unregenerate dead do not have eternal life

48:11

The question is was the nature of the punishment and then what is the endurance?

48:17

period of endurance is is the issue and so I Said and I think some people

48:25

I you know, I didn't get maybe you did but you didn't say anything about to me. I didn't

48:31

I Did not get any feedback from that program at all. Yeah.

48:42

Yeah. No, I didn't there is from our folks, it was just sort of like I Don't like that topic and and I get that I get that most people don't you know when

48:57

I I Get it. I I fully understand it it that's why

49:02

I've said I don't want to be the apologist for hell. It is a Bummer of a topic to have to deal with but you do have to deal with it and I said in that program.

49:17

I said this is one subject where I wish I could hold a different position. I Really do

49:24

Yeah This is this is a this is not a topic where I'm sitting here going

49:31

Yeah I'm not gonna listen to any arguments against my position because I really like holding this position and It makes my life easier.

49:42

No, the reality is it would be easier Because oh and then this is another thing

49:51

Chris Chris At one point

49:58

I made the observation and it is an accurate observation That To hold to a concept of any type of traditional concept of eternal punishment is to be in the minority in New Testament scholarship in the world today, and that's true

50:21

Now that doesn't mean that All those people hold the same views It's just that to actually believe that the

50:29

New Testament is consistent enough to actually present a doctrine of last things that you would actually live in light of is extremely the minority position

50:44

Extremely the minority position. So what Chris does is he takes offense at that say I believe in inerrancy.

50:50

I wasn't talking about you You're a minority to a real small minority even smaller than our minority

51:00

But I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the reality that if most of the listeners to this program walk into a

51:09

Christian bookstore and pick up a book a Commentary on the

51:15

New Testament and look these texts up. They're gonna be shocked Because the majority of Commentaries are not written by people who actually believe the

51:26

Bible's consistent with itself wasn't even talking about you It was one of those things. I'm like, oh man

51:32

Do you do you see people criticizing you in every single thing?

51:37

They say come on Wow, that was that was really disappointing. And you know, I just point is because I like Chris and He does a lot of good work in other areas

51:49

I Confess that The more I hear the more it seems to me

51:58

That this particular area is Fundamentally impacting every other area in a negative fashion

52:05

He says he wants to a PhD. He's trying to survive fuller. I mean surviving fuller is tough enough as it is

52:12

I survived in the 80s. I can't imagine what it's like to survive it now But he wants to a

52:19

PhD in Old Testament studies But it sounds like he wants to a PhD in Old Testament studies in this area

52:28

Well, we'll see. We'll see. I if I if he had asked me

52:35

Years and years ago. My statement would have been well, I can't stop you But in my experience and nothing has changed over the past 10 -15 years

52:45

In my experience people who start down this road generally don't find a whole lot of stopping places along the way

52:53

Before they get into some real serious liberalism But There you go but so so some

53:05

I just point was just like just because I would expect more you know, don't don't tell people that I believe that unregenerative individually and and and Recognize that when

53:15

I'm talking about the fact that most New Testament scholarship is

53:22

Conditionalistic it's it's because they have a low view of scripture. I wasn't even talking about you You say I have a high fine.

53:28

Great. Wonderful that means we can have a different kind of argument, but doesn't change the reality that you're an even smaller minority than we are and That's clearly what

53:38

I was talking about. I don't know how you can't see that But it does demonstrate that this subject

53:46

I Could be in the majority if I wanted to I could have a bigger seat at the table if I held a different perspective

53:55

And I do differentiate between this subject and for example anything

54:01

Trinitarian Obviously There have again

54:09

You go back into church history and there have been all sorts of different perspectives on This subject and just because one became predominant in the medieval period

54:22

Doesn't mean anything to me because there was a lot of stuff that became predominant in medieval period that I don't believe or accept myself so Why then don't

54:34

I just go the easy route well because I don't see a consistency

54:40

And in fact one of the things that struck me as I listened to the response Was how many times

54:47

Chris had to say things like well, we don't get into that here in our group We don't take a stand on this in our group

54:55

I'm not sure how that works. He does apologetics How do you

55:00

Not take a stand on some of those now some of it just maybe well there are so few of us that are really interested in the subject that We have to avoid

55:11

Getting into topics that would result in us all well, I guess

55:16

I can't condemn each other to hell Each other to annihilation or something

55:22

But we have to avoid the subjects that would get us divided up even into smaller groups than we are

55:30

Maybe that's the case or Maybe as some people have told me there are

55:38

Questions about Jesus continued conscious existence after death and That ends up impacting issues in incarnation and I'd be really

55:51

Leery about a lot of that stuff and I'd be really interested in and whether that what I've been told is is true about that kind of stuff

56:01

But it did strike me that there were a lot of key issues It was like well, you know, some people say this something and I get that These are not the topics we talked about most a lot of people in this audience they've heard me talk about the subject of grieving and One of the things

56:21

I say when I talk about the grieving book that I wrote is we as Christians really stink at talking about death

56:27

But you know what most Americans do It's it that's more of a modernistic type thing there was much more discussion about in the past that doesn't mean it was critical thought

56:39

There was a lot of traditional thought I it's it struck me over the years doing a little church history here

56:45

It struck me over the years that There's a great video and those of you, you know who are like algo you've heard me mention this thousand times before We always have new listeners

56:57

There's a great video on Martin Luther, it's the BBC version called

57:03

Martin Luther heretic It's shorter than the full Jonathan Farnes was a

57:08

Jonathan Farnes. No, or was that the one that was BBC? I'm horrible with actors And which one is which

57:14

I think Jonathan Farnes was in the BBC one Anyway, it's called Martin Luther heretic.

57:19

It's my favorite and One of the things that it

57:25

Really brings home right toward the beginning in the formation of Luther's Entire psyche is the centrality of death and The nearness of death remember the the the thunderstorm incident

57:47

When you live with the reality and sort of has some small connection

57:53

Though the numbers aren't the same some small connection to what we've been experiencing recently there are

57:59

I Know people who are living in mortal fear of their lives.

58:05

They are panicked they really think the zombie apocalypse has arrived and When you have that fear of death

58:18

You will Your mind will constantly be dwelling upon the afterlife

58:26

Now what's weird in our day? It's not quite the same Because Luther was facing plague and death and war

58:40

From a Supernaturalistic worldview But when you approach these things from a naturalistic worldview

58:51

The results are going to be different You will still think about death, but there's this big blank spot afterwards

59:00

Meaninglessness nihilism Becomes the real issue at that point but the reason that men responded to justification by faith

59:12

Was because they recognized how close how mortal they were how this physical life

59:20

Would soon be over and could be over very soon as in today tomorrow the next day

59:28

Everybody had seen a dead body in the streets Everybody had seen dead children Everybody had seen starvation plague war

59:40

It was all around them makes you much more serious about thinking about the nature of mankind and so Sure, there was a lot of discussion about these things but Traditional understandings that doesn't make them right

01:00:00

We have to back up what we're what we what we believe there has to be serious thought but this

01:00:06

More than almost any other subject requires us to bring into our thinking multiple threads of biblical reality and biblical truth

01:00:17

So what is God seeking to accomplish what is the nature of man what is the nature of justice?

01:00:24

Why does why does the Bible talk about punishment and is that punishment simply annihilation is it simply cessation of existence is

01:00:36

There is there a correspondence when we talk about the death that Christ died.

01:00:41

What is the nature of the substitutionary element of that is It necessary that Christ be the

01:00:49

God -man for his death to be propitiatory for many people all who are united with him and what is the relationship of the nature of his person to the atonement that is offered and again church history is

01:01:17

Important to understand here, but it's insufficient to give us an answer it helps us to evaluate our answers and we

01:01:28

We cheapen the answer we give if we are not aware of The answers that have been offered in the past so What have you heard me saying in the

01:01:39

Ken Wilson stuff recently? What have I said a number of times in a background information? There wasn't a major treatise in the subject atonement till the fourth century

01:01:48

So that was not where the focus of their attention was when

01:01:58

You have Early writers Who addressed the subject because they are forced to buy something outside because the

01:02:11

Consistency of Christian revelation has not been worked through and we don't have the the shoulders of Giants stand on People come up with some really weird stuff.

01:02:22

So for example, I was gonna spend some time today I'm not going to now obviously I was gonna spend some time talking a little bit

01:02:30

About I was studying they spent hours this morning studying for future programs. That's what I've been doing While trimming a tree and while doing a two -mile walk and what

01:02:41

I was Studying is Gnosticism now. I've stayed Gnosticism for years, but generally my interest would finally end

01:02:51

Once it started getting to the level of all the names That Gnosticism uses because There are so many names and One writer would use one name and another writer would use another name for the same figure or concept most of them are

01:03:12

Greek names sometimes Coptic sometimes Egyptian depends on who you're reading, but and and the categories of exist, it's it is absurdly complicated

01:03:24

Absurdly complicated. Let me just tell you one thing this morning If you know about Gnosticism, you know about the

01:03:33

Demiurge, right? I've told you about that. You've heard me talk about the Demiurge I only have an audience of one and he sometimes goes catatonic.

01:03:40

So the the Demiurge is the creator of the physical universe

01:03:49

So Yahweh the creator God of Genesis To the

01:03:55

Gnostics was not only a lower form of divine being

01:04:02

But a deceived Depraved arrogant form of divine being

01:04:10

Who actually proclaimed himself to be the only true God? Gnosticism is without a doubt the most wicked demonic religion

01:04:19

I've ever encountered It is it knows the scriptures and intentionally seeks to pervert them

01:04:27

This wasn't just some sort of innocent these We have the idea here in Arizona we're not far from a city called

01:04:35

Sedona and Sedona the the Sedona area is one of the most beautiful places in the world.

01:04:43

It's the it's the Grand Canyon upside down It really is beautiful But it is inhabited by wackos just complete total wackos

01:04:57

Remember the Harmonic Convergence? What year was that 2005? For some reason 2005 comes up in my mind

01:05:04

Everybody was talking about the harmonic conversions, which was supposed to be focused in Prescott, Arizona and So you go driving through Prescott today if if you need any crystals

01:05:19

What? What did I say Prescott? Oh, I'm sorry, Sedona Prescott, that's where that's where Rich was born

01:05:30

Sedona you can get the Sedona through Prescott. You just have to go over Mingus Mountain. So anyway

01:05:37

No, no, so Sedona is the place to go. You want to get all the crystals you want and And all the rest that's a we tend to think of Gnosticism like that because you hear all the

01:05:48

Gnostic stuff and you go 1960s hippies who had way too much cannabis and fried their brains

01:05:59

But still live in Sedona. That's that's what no, that's not what Gnosticism was Gnosticism was far

01:06:07

Gnosticism was simply demonic and so you can't you can't use the term demonic in most church history classes or at least in most history classes

01:06:16

You're you're not allowed to know you're not allowed to say things like that. But for a believer you look at what

01:06:22

Gnosticism taught It's demonic It is it is devilish Satanic to its core because the one true

01:06:31

God that the New Testament belabors the fact the

01:06:36

God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob has Revealed himself in Jesus Christ. This is fundamental to the

01:06:42

New Testament teaching that is fundamentally denied and The God who created this world is an arrogant stupid

01:06:51

Creature Who and I was doing some more reading on it

01:06:58

So I'm I'm just gonna give you what I understand right now I've talked to you about the eons that how did

01:07:06

I get into this? I wasn't gonna spend as much time but this is the problem You can't even talk about a little part of it and make it understandable.

01:07:12

Well without fitting it into this massively complicated cosmogony this whole story of where how everything came into existence and and all the rest of stuff, but the one true

01:07:29

God who isn't a God like we conceive of a God this is the true the true light that Who has just been at peace in eternity?

01:07:45

But is not the creator of all things and is not the self -sufficient source of its own existence or personal self -glorify none of these things

01:07:55

But this pure God emanates thoughts

01:08:02

States of thought and these emanations can then interact with one another

01:08:10

We automatically think of these as persons Creatures there's an element of that but then there's not an element of that.

01:08:18

These are the eons that come forth from The one

01:08:24

God Which is not monotheism by any no one no, it's not monotheism by any stretch of the imagination

01:08:33

But they come forth one of the last emanations is

01:08:42

Sophia now, what does Sophia mean? Sophia means wisdom feminine

01:08:52

And You know different systems had different numbers there's 12 and then the second 12

01:08:59

All depends on who you're talking to I'm gonna get back to Irenaeus here and say Each one has a pair.

01:09:09

So it's a male female pair and that creates harmony and balance harmony and balance big thing Big thing gotta have harmony balance.

01:09:16

Well Sophia Contemplates the source without consulting her consort and becomes so excited in her

01:09:35

Contemplation of the one true source That she brings forth a miss formed thought that is a being and She's embarrassed that the other eons will find out that she's done this because she shouldn't have done it separately from her cause there was disharmony see and so She basically thrust this thing out of the play

01:10:05

Roma the fullness and Somehow and I haven't quite figured out exactly how this works, or if it's just a matter of differing views because there was valid there were

01:10:21

Valentinian spins and if you get down toward Egypt that has another spin and just tremendously complex

01:10:34

From this Divine but misshapen creature that is

01:10:42

Removed by Sophia from the play Roma Somehow that either becomes or gives birth to the

01:10:53

God of this world called a number of different names within Gnosticism but attached to the name

01:11:03

Jehovah That's where Jehovah comes from in Gnosticism and hence

01:11:12

There is this really complicated just as there is in Manichaeism, there's this really complicated mythology about how

01:11:20

Mankind becomes created and how the eons get involved. So there is this the dual nature of man the spiritual nature and the fleshly nature and there's rape involved and then again, there is a

01:11:34

Manichaeism too. So yeah, okay It gets incredibly incredibly complex wild but the the whole idea is disharmony between what we would call attributes of the one

01:11:49

God and Interesting enough. It's wisdom Sophia that is

01:11:56

Responsible now she is sort of like redeemed and you know, once it becomes known what she did amongst eons

01:12:01

She's brought back in and everybody's cool. And you know If you can describe it that way

01:12:08

But it was wisdom Sophia That was the one that started the path toward the creation of this

01:12:20

She experienced Confusion and Something else.

01:12:25

I was just reading it. I was actually going to have a little story time with Jimmy today But I just decided

01:12:32

I didn't want to put you all through it Because this takes us back to where we were Irenaeus Irenaeus Up Until we discovered the

01:12:44

Nag Hammadi library In the last century

01:12:52

We were almost completely dependent upon Irenaeus's Description of Gnosticism to understand what the system was his book against heresies starts off with a entire section

01:13:11

If you want to if you're sitting there going that guy's just so stupid he can't explain this to us

01:13:16

Here's what you need to do go online Look up against heresies by Irenaeus Read book 1 chapter 1 and following and He will lay out

01:13:28

Gnosticism for you and I just go okay you try to summarize that in less than 10 minutes

01:13:34

Ha ha ha good luck ain't gonna happen. It's amazing go online look up Gnostic eons hit graphics

01:13:45

But be careful about that. Hope your filters on But you'll see the same thing even the graphics trying to show the relationship of the eons to each other and the dodeca and the deca and it's

01:14:00

Really really really really really complicated, so I guess mentioning

01:14:05

Irenaeus is what got me off on this tangent because I Can really appreciate the fact that Irenaeus Did a really good job describing

01:14:18

Gnosticism he did his homework now scholars would say well now that we have the Nag Hammadi He wasn't exactly right about this, but look given that he's in Gaul.

01:14:29

He's in France This isn't exactly the hometown of Gnosticism He did a really good job in Laying out what the problems were and what the errors were and and it's quite in -depth

01:14:47

He did a much better job than a lot of people credit him In fact we were able to recognize

01:14:52

What was in the Nag Hammadi library because we had Irenaeus were like oh? Did you know remember in 2006 when the gospel of Judas came out?

01:15:03

Remember there was all the big discussion about the gospel of Judas, and it was you know More of it has come out since then and it's it's a weird.

01:15:11

I mean it is it guess who we We knew it existed You know how we knew?

01:15:17

Irenaeus described it. That's how we knew we had it is Irenaeus had done that good of a job, so I can really appreciate

01:15:27

Irenaeus But his doctrine of the atonement was totally whacked

01:15:34

It really was it was called the recapitulation theory. I've told you about it before But I've told you about it in another context

01:15:43

The recapitulation theory was that Jesus had to live through all the ages of man to redeem all the ages of man

01:15:50

So that's why Irenaeus is the first one to use the phrase apostolic tradition

01:15:56

That he had an apostolic tradition that had been passed down from the Apostles That Jesus was more than 50 years old when he died

01:16:06

And nobody today believes that but that's the earliest reference to apostolic tradition in the patristic sources

01:16:15

So I can read against heresies and Really appreciate

01:16:21

What work went into that? But I always have to keep in mind Irenaeus His doctrine of atonement

01:16:31

Was not biblical He thought it was and We we can't know exactly what canon of scripture he necessarily had

01:16:41

I mean, I'm sure someone's written a study of it, but did were certain books of scripture only recently

01:16:48

Available in his area or known to be scripture You know, I I try to have as broad a

01:16:59

Extension of grace that possibly can in those first years in those first centuries because I know how dependent

01:17:08

I am and you are on those who came before us we have

01:17:16

Inherited a fully developed theological language You didn't know that no one no one walked up to you

01:17:24

Let's say you walked an aisle in a Baptist Church. Nobody walked up to you and handed you the theological lingo book

01:17:31

But you picked it up fast You picked it up fast It was picked up in the conversations going on and in Sunday school and it's picked up in the services and it's picked up through music our hymns

01:17:47

Man there's a lot of theology in those things and you learn the language. Well that took a long time to develop we've had an advantage that those early church fathers did not have and So I can appreciate

01:18:01

Irenaeus While going yeah, but his doctor now he didn't know what

01:18:08

I know About Some of the backgrounds and and didn't have the commentaries and he took over the group there in Lyon Because the previous bishop was killed there had been bad persecution and we don't know when he died because he probably died in persecution, too so Give cut the guy a break.

01:18:32

Basically is what I'm saying Don't judge him on standards that he didn't have

01:18:41

Okay But That also means I have to go. Yeah.

01:18:46

Okay. I hear what what he's saying on this side of the other thing. That's why

01:18:54

We have to be so careful and how we handle the early church fathers let's tie this tie this together because I do intend to wrap this program up because this may have been the most meandering discussion we've ever ever had

01:19:10

Um, but the end of five Consecutive dividing lines

01:19:16

I can meander a little bit. I hope you don't mind What well

01:19:25

I am Yeah, it is hard to we the subjects that we're addressing today are somewhat

01:19:34

Complex not just Gnosticism but dealing with eschatology and punishment and The point is this we need to have an eschatology and a concept of the judgment that takes into consideration a

01:19:57

Whole lot more than just simply a few proof texts on Let's let's put this way

01:20:05

I Think the meaning of bassanus moss is important. I think that the parallel of Matthew 25 46 is important.

01:20:12

Yes, Chris I listened to what you said and it was I'm very unconvincing to me, but The point is

01:20:20

I heard it and I can see why you're extremely concerned about that particular text But what

01:20:28

I'm saying to people on my side is for most of us we have Held to a position and we don't know why we hold to it.

01:20:37

It's tradition and Let's just put it this way

01:20:45

People like Chris date challenge us To know why we believe on the subject and I'll tell you one thing

01:20:56

Most people haven't responded to him overly. Well, there are some people out there, but this is just the subject people don't want to talk about and the reason

01:21:12

I haven't adopted that perspective is Because I see it to be in conflict and see

01:21:19

Chris says and this is why I believe it the way that I believe it In his particular view fine. Great.

01:21:24

I'm glad that That's what you think but issues of justice

01:21:32

Anthropology Atonement are generally not the context in which our eschatology has been formed you see where this was all coming to this this you want to hear what the the the end of the week exhortation is here

01:21:52

We spent a lot of time this week in historiography Being fair to early church fathers

01:22:02

Recognizing the abuse of early church fathers and all the rest of that stuff, okay

01:22:09

Theologically the challenge for us is That We need to be honest when there are parts of our theology that are basically unformed

01:22:26

Because we have not Wrestled With what are the real constituent factors of that theology

01:22:39

Do you hear what I'm saying? If you have simply adopted a

01:22:47

Traditional understanding in any area Without seeing what the foundations are and the consistency of those foundations

01:22:58

That's going to be a weakness for you and in my experience once somebody pushes upon an area of Our theology that we have formed out of tradition

01:23:13

We tend to respond with emotion first and foremost Because we know that we have a weakness there and We know that if you push us too far, there's nothing

01:23:27

I got no place left to go. I've never really thought through What this is all about and so we want to have a consistent theology

01:23:39

Why am I why am I even investing my time other than the cool? Enjoyable thing about getting to teach church history on the dividing line

01:23:51

To a depth that at least some of you appreciate some others. Maybe you've just tuned us out.

01:23:56

I don't know But why respond to things because we're being told by Ken Wilson and Layton flowers and these people that the deepest

01:24:08

Central insight of reformed theology, which is that God is God and we are not

01:24:14

That God is absolutely sovereign That his self -glorification is sufficient reason for all of creation and redemption

01:24:23

That he is the creator of all things that he has the right to decree the very fabric of time and then and Then amazingly he enters into the fabric of time as a part of his decree

01:24:42

Something no Manichaean Gnostic or Stoic could have ever dreamed of but anyway We're being told that that central beautiful Reality that changes everything and you in the audience you know what

01:24:57

I'm talking about, you know what it was like to all of a sudden realize God is really God and he has the right to do with his creation as he sees fit to his glory and The amazing thing is

01:25:12

He's chosen to enter into his own creation and join a people to himself that central reality we're being told is actually a straight line borrowing from Stoicism Gnosticism Manichaeism, so I Know that's not true.

01:25:37

I know that's patently absurd But I'm seeing people being influenced by that Because it comes from two directions

01:25:50

It is natural for man To put himself in the center.

01:25:58

It is natural for man to Decentralize God's intentions and and and go with the man centeredness on the theology side and Then join that with a with the simple reality

01:26:18

That the man in the pew in the world today has no idea what

01:26:24

Manichaeism was what Gnosticism was what the Stoics believed and Therefore someone comes along and says believe me.

01:26:34

Here's some quotes You put the two together and it becomes a very noxious fume and I'm just turning the fan on to blow it out the windows.

01:26:46

That's all But I think it's an important thing to do and the process hopefully edify a whole bunch of folks and Teach you and by example

01:27:02

To be able to Read Irenaeus against heresies and go and this guy put a lot of work into this and isn't it amazing?

01:27:12

It's something written this long ago. We can still read it and He was really concerned About apologetics in his day and man

01:27:20

His stuff is really twisted by liberals and things like that today and he's attacked and and all that kind of stuff

01:27:28

But then at the same time when you then read someplace else and all sudden he says something weird about Recapitulation and stuff like that.

01:27:35

You don't just automatically go ah burn burn him burn his works heretic

01:27:42

No, you go Alive in the second century and man,

01:27:47

I've got access to a whole lot more and Isn't it isn't it wonderful that God has not left us to our own devices and and there has been people who've been able to work through these things and we can we can use the language we've developed to understand these things and so instead of it being a

01:28:06

I'm going to exercise judgment and get the flamethrower out and Identify Irenaeus as a heretic because he had a different view than I do

01:28:14

Though he wouldn't have known what your view was. So that's the point you see I can be really thankful For even people who had different views than I did in the past.

01:28:27

I think that involves maturity and growth and That's what we need in our day and while we still have the freedom to be doing this all we still have this program and We haven't been shut down by the bots yet For not bowing to Big Brother and Big Brother's definition of truth and we need to do what we can do

01:28:52

So we're just making our little contribution toward getting everything The way it needs to go.

01:28:59

Did I forget anything here? Dee -dee -dee -dee looking at Yeah, I've still got

01:29:04

I've still got topics for next week and something might happen between now and next week You think it's possible

01:29:12

It's it's very very possible. So there you go Something tells me there'd be a response to that too, but We we will prioritize things based upon the moments of teachability that they offer and and what's going on and and our role so that this makes

01:29:32

Nine Hours this week we've been together on the dividing line if you've watched or listened to nine hours this week

01:29:41

What is wrong with you? Ain't going back and listen and do it.

01:29:47

That's for sure But hopefully if you have you've had to port Yeah, poor rich is that listen to all of it?

01:29:53

But at least he got distracted a few times had a few phone calls and stuff like that So didn't have to suffer through all of it, but don't forget on Monday.

01:30:00

We've got my little hot simbuler and You'll not want to miss that Thanks for watching.