Have Tongues Ceased? (1 Cor 13:8-13)

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And you're you're I'm gonna tell you you're so smug that you cannot listen to somebody try to talk to you about something without ridicule

00:07

It's it's incorrect. I Know it's incorrect according to your the way you want to absolutely interpret it.

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No, no No, he's he's saying you saying that he's smug is incorrect. No, I am smug.

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I you know, I own it I'm fine with it. You know,

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I it doesn't bother me Welcome to apologetics live we're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

00:35

Bible Meet your hosts from striving for eternity ministries Andrew Rappaport. Dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor

00:42

Justin Pierce Well Welcome to another apologetics live there

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You got a clip of the proof that I can be wrong and I admit it when I am and that norm is smug

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Oh pastor Josiah was backstage just cracking up laughing rolling his head back on that That was a great one with with pastor

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Justin. So tonight we're gonna deal with this question. The question we want to answer is have tongues ceased

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That's gonna be our topic tonight before we do let me bring in pastor Josiah. How are you, sir? I'm better than I deserve

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Hey, I heard that earlier today. Oh from you Oh What we're gonna do is we're gonna deal with a topic that is quite emotional for many and I recognize that and so what

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I'm I know that there's some who jump to lots of conclusions in You know saying that if you bring these issues up you somehow are saying people aren't saved

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We're not saying that although there are plenty of those hold to The fact that tongues continue for today and they argue that you have to speak in tongues to be saved

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But I don't know many people that say if you don't if you believe that tongues continue

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Then you're not saved. So one side does have that now. It's not all charismatics, by the way

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But let me define some terms when I say charismatic it's because the the Greek word it doesn't mean someone's got

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Charisma and they're just a charismatic speaker. No, it's the idea that charismatic gifts because the the

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Greek word charisma is The term used for certain gifts

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So there's two different words used in Greek to refer to gifts and this one is using referred to as what some people call apostolic or sign gifts and so what we end up seeing there is that these are the gifts we're going to be speaking of and so a whole movement started out of this they became became known as the charismatic movement actually

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It's something that has developed. There was a difference in the way Pentecostals did theology versus charismatics.

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So a lot of people don't know that there's a great book called doing theology it's basically different ways many people do theology and it was interesting to read that because the

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Pentecostal Writer for that chapter was explaining how Pentecostals went in to churches teaching that to speak in tongues and then they separated out and created their own churches where the charismatic movement would go into those churches and stay in there to Try to convince everyone to speak in tongues

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That is his conclusion not mine But there is some of that that we end up seeing now

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KT is saying that Andrew is here rolling rolling his head on a my pillow.

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I Don't see a my pillow here. That's you that Pastor Jaya that usually has the my pillow right there with you.

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So So What we want to do is deal with the topic that I'm gonna say right up front

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I know this is an emotional topic. How do I know that well? Because I posted it

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Online that we were gonna do this show and wow The comments are still going days later, which usually, you know posts like on Facebook or Twitter.

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They kind of die out after a while Not this one. It is still going still heated still back and forth with a lot of people and I Just shows you how much emotion is invested in this now.

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I realize a lot of people They they're they have a lot invested in this a lot of people they put this is a major thing that you end up seeing that they

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This is who they are. I'll put it that way They have their identity in this and so, you know, this is why this is such an emotional issue

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Now, I know that Let me just share this real quick I posted this and Online and I know some people reacted negatively to this, but I'll start off with this

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Here's a post that I had online and you can see charismatic gifts up there and The Bible it's a that's like God flicking his finger

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And there's a person he's flicking a finger off a cliff and the person it's your feelings in other words

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What is going to be our ultimate authority? Is it going to be our feelings or experience or is it going to be the

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Bible? That is the question that we all are going to have to answer and Why do

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I put that up? Why do I make that issue? I know so many people been upset with me putting those means I got a bunch of those memes I didn't want the same meme with women pastors gay

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Christians. I got more coming. Don't worry That that just so many things that people let their emotions

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Be the thing that's going to interpret scripture Yeah, you got me in trouble on Facebook.

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I Had to write a post about it What did I do now you you posted

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Deuteronomy? Let me try to remember the passage it was it was it was

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Deuteronomy We see Kofi likes not Kofi wants more memes so Yeah, it was it was

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Deuteronomy The passage on a man shall not wear a

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May a woman not shall not wear a man's garment nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak for whoever does these things is an abomination to the

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Lord your God 225 I had to write an article on that in order to wait

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I Think it was on striving for eternity Like the place where we're able to Post these things without getting blocked off Yes, if you go to striving for training org

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Josiah is one of our bloggers and actually the article that we're gonna go through Tonight is on there as well

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If you go to striving for turning org And if you want just search for have tongues ceased and you're gonna get an article that I wrote that is gonna deal with 1st

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Corinthians 13 Verses 8 to 13. That's what we're gonna deal with first So I'm gonna go through this and I realized that like I said

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I'm gonna explain what I think is the biblical position. I'm gonna explain why

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I think it is I'm going to give I what I believe is the context of the passage and the rules of interpretation that I'm following now if someone comes in and Wants to argue about their experience

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I'll have to bring that meme back up because quite frankly Your experience is not the interpretation of Scripture.

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That's not how we interpret Scripture In fact, the one challenge for people that I would have is if it's if we're going to look at experience as the guide

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What do we do with the fact that long before? 1900s before speaking in tongues as they would call it is

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Was normative within biblical Christianity We see tongues being spoken in Hindu kundalini in Mormonism in the occult

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So if if the fact that you can speak a gibberish is proof that you're you're hearing from God Then the occult is hearing from God So if it's if we're going to judge based on experience right off the bat

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I'm just saying you have to answer how you're right with the same exact gift that all of the cult and occult has been doing long before the

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Christians were doing it That's just a question. We honestly have to ask

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Looking at history and things like that so we want to be fair and And I'm saying that because I know there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna get very emotional with me.

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I get that Because this this is very personal for many Yeah, isn't tongues the the the thing that started the

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Pentecostal Church in 1901 where they're pretending to speak in Chinese Well, yeah, 1905 is when it really became popular at the

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Azusa Street But there yes There were some and I can't you know Justin Peters here.

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He'd tell you the name of the guy who first started it. I think it was in the late 1800s and Convinced me they were convinced.

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Now. This is the thing. They were convinced that they spoke a known human Language, which is what tongues were always in the

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Bible There is no place ever that you see it being anything other than a known human language

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Now someone is going await Andrew Andrew first Corinthians you just mentioned first Corinthians 13 verse 1 says it

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Okay We'll do I you know, well we've dealt with this on a previous show But let let me start with that just so that we get that out of the way because that that's a it's a fair argument

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It does mention the the tongues of men and of angels. And so is there a language that angels speak?

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That's a fair question Well, it says if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love

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I become a noisy gong or clanging cymbal. So what you see right off the bat simple interpretation he's doing a comparison between speaking in tongues and Love what's he saying?

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Love is more important tongues are not that becomes really important because when some of you who are really gonna be hating me are gonna be

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Calling me names and tell me how much you don't like me Because of my position

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I'm gonna say love or tongues Which is the priority here if you don't have love for your brother in Christ Because he doesn't agree with your view on tongues

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You'd have something backwards, but is Paul actually saying that there is a language and That's how tongues should be translated as languages

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It is there a language of men and of angels Well Paul saying if he speaks the language of men

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Even and even of angels it sounds to me like this could be exaggeration Could be is there anything that would help us to understand that?

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Well there happens to be because we have the next verse where he says if I have the gift of prophecy and I know all mysteries and All knowledge and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love

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I am nothing No, no, that is clearly

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Hyperbolic language. How do we know that? Well because he's saying if he has all mysteries now the word mysteries there is a is a

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Definitive article So this is the mysteries the knowledge the faith and it's all of it

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If you knew all mysteries and had all knowledge and had all faith we would call you

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God Right and so clearly Paul is not claiming that he is

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God Clearly he's exaggerating the point saying even if I go to the extreme,

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I know I have I'm omniscient And I have such faith that I can remove a mountain

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But comparing that to love all that I mean think about the idea he's arguing if you can have omniscient and you can have

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Walk the complete faith That's nothing compared to love

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So once you see the exaggeration we go back to verse 1 and see he's not saying that there's an angelic language

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Could there be an angelic language? Yeah, there could be I don't I don't deny that How do you know you're speaking it and here's the thing

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I have heard many many people who claim to speak in tongues and Even though I've heard people all around the world that claim they speak in tongues and they all speak in an angelic language

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They speak very differently not the same sounds Maybe there's like a million dialects of angelic

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That wouldn't make sense though Because they didn't suffer the Tower of Babel So, why is it that all these people that speak in angelic language all have

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Via a variety of sounds and words and or you know I guess now

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I can't even say words, but if it was an angelic language, it would be different words, you know That doesn't make sense.

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It's not fitting with a grammar the way all language does It doesn't what you end up seeing today.

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And so When we look at this we have to look at the context there the context tells us that he's using exaggeration hyperbolic language so let's

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Let's get to the passage that we're looking at So something

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I want to say is We don't take it It's a hermeneutical principle that you don't take

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Figurative speech and literalize it to make it mean whatever you want it to mean

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You're supposed to take the idea that the image or concept is presenting and Take that principle from from there

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So when he's saying he can speak in the languages of men and angels He's saying if he could speak in all languages, that's not as important as love

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If he has all knowledge Then he it's not as important as love

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Correct, you know, let me do this is a comment. So I'll put up it says angel is messenger

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Okay And so he's he's saying here further Angel may not be some sort of heavenly being or creature

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Now the heat this person he or she I don't actually don't know from from the name They're correct.

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The word angel means messenger and it doesn't necessarily mean the angelic class or angelic beings not always

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So as we look at that, we have to examine where what the context is. I believe the context of first Corinthians 13 is

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The angelic class of beings because of the fact that he's making a distinction between men and angels

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So when I would look at this and I've never heard that argument before but it's it's a good, you know

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Valid to address it and and look at that. And so he says I'm a dude. Thank you so, um what we end up seeing is

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Because there's a contrast between men and angels. I don't think it's a male Messenger because that wouldn't make sense there so And we we got our our australian sydney australian friends saying good morning to us.

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So good morning ted Good morning So let's deal with the verse the passages we have here.

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Let me first read first corinthians 13 8 to 13. I know we got some people backstage. I want to kind of go through go through this line of argumentation in one shot because I think that If we bring people in and break it up It's it you were going to lose the flow and what

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I want to do is give you a hermeneutical way of looking at this What's hermeneutics? That's the art and science of interpretation

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Why are we going to do that for a very simple reason often what we do is We break rules of of interpretation

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And we don't realize it and that's the thing uh that Um, i'm just looking at his comments.

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I'll get to that in a second Uh, that's the thing that we end up having realized if we stick within the rules.

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We're going to be consistent in how we interpret And that's what we want to do. We want to stay within the rules and that's we're going to try to do so here, uh

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He says messengers from god carry an authority man may not but without love a clanging cymbal so Okay um

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We have someone backstage that's putting in a lot of Some comments i'll try to get to those

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I'm, hope we get some other the other co -hosts should be coming in later and hopefully they come in so they can read all the comments

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As I can't Do the both as there's a bunch of comments flying But then they read the passage to get us started and then we're going to look at the paper have tongues ceased at striving for eternity .org

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Love never fails But if there are gifts of prophecy

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They will be done away If there are tongues They will cease

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If there is knowledge it will be done away For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes

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The partial will be done away When I was a child I used to speak like a child

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Think like a child reason like a child when I became a man. I did away with childish things

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For now we see in a mirror dimly but then face to face Now I know in part, but then

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I will know fully Just as I also have been fully known

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But now faith hope love abide these three, but the greatest of these is love

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Okay So let me i'm going to go through this paper And and i'm going to put in some things that are not in the paper as we go through as well

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Maybe i'll have to rewrite this paper and update it, but i'm going to i'm going to somewhat read through it

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For those that aren't maybe you're driving you're in the car listening on the podcast Which by the way, this is also a podcast feed

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So if you subscribe as the to the podcast apologetics live it will automatically download into your phone or device

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Whenever you want to listen And you can go back to past episodes So this is what what i've written is there there's been much discussion on what is the word perfect In first corinthians 13 10 and that's really what everything hinges on because what you end up seeing is

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This is saying that prophecy tongues and knowledge Go away, whenever this perfect comes

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So we have to know what that is All right so a proper

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Interpretation of this passage will answer the question Are tongues for today now that would seem like a pretty serious question to answer since there's so many that are involved in the movement

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So what I say is the word teleon and that's basically teleos is the is the word that we have here

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It translated in into english as perfect But it also can be better translated as complete or mature.

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How do we know? I'll ask this to pastor. Josiah. You've written a couple books on hermeneutics.

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How do we know? Which way to translate this whether perfect complete or mature if the word has multiple uses

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Well, even though word can have a semantic range. It always has one meaning in the context in the context

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So the context is gonna is gonna say that all right So this is gonna be the immediate context the immediate context

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And we're going to get to that because the way we see is it says I say here This conveys the idea of perfect and this is the way most people think of it

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They see the word perfect and they think without flaw and because of that That ends up tainting some people's interpretation

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Okay The real issue in understanding the meaning of the word is the context

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Context explains the word usage when it's not clear. Does the context support the word for telios to be translated as complete

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And not perfect Well as we look at the context We saw in verse 9 partial

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Right, we know in part we prophesy in part. So two things that are partial but then

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Something the partial is done away. So what you end up having is a completion in verses 9 and 10 partial in verse 9 completion in verse 10 verse 11

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You have a child To manhood. That's the idea of maturity or completeness

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You have a you have looking in polished metal now part of the reason I think people have an issue with this is they look at this and say this is a mirror versus looking face to face

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Well, it's not the mirrors we would have today. It's a polished metal. So that's looking dimly versus looking clearly

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Again, it's complete or or maturing or perfect in the sense of a completed thing

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Knowing partially versus knowing fully All three of or sorry all four of those

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Are dealing with the idea of something that comes to completion So I think that within the context

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It we could say but that when the complete comes The partial would be done away with Now all i'm doing is sticking within the immediate context here

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So I say here in the paper in verse 11 paul, oh did I skip it?

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Yeah, I skipped a paragraph, uh, so I say here, uh, the context starts with the verse verse 1 in chapter 13

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Paul is explaining the difference between tongues as a temporal Unimportant gift versus love an eternal important gift.

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We already addressed that Read reading verse 9. It says You know for we know in part and we prophesy in part and then verse 10 is is saying but so you're seeing the contrast

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That's what you end up doing when you see a word like but what you're going to look to do Is you're going to look to contrast that you're going to look to see what is the the

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Point on one side of the butt and on the other side of the butt because that contrast is explaining the meaning

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Okay, so going on to the This is to contrast the previous thought which is uh to the current thought

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But when the teleos has come so knowing in part prophesying in part is

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Contrasted with the teleos coming the contrast against that Which is partial

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So it's further emphasized in verses 10 and 11 right in verse 10 where I said it talks about putting away childish things

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Verses, uh, or sorry verses 11 and 12 Where you have putting away of childish things

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And verse 12 comparing it to looking in a mirror dimly or seeing face to face We have to remember, you know, this is polished metal

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Go take a spoon Out of your draw and you know kind of polish it up clean it up and look at it

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That's what they would have as a mirror back in the first century. They didn't have the clear glass that we have today and so Let me deal with some of the arguments that people have at this point is that the word perfect Means flawless it it must be referring to christ because it means flawless.

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That is how many people will interpret that um And so what we end up seeing is you know

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Actually before that I should let me explain this is that it must be understood that that what you have In verses 11 12 are illustrations of the point being made in 9 and 10

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It's illustrations And so one of the rules of interpretation is you do not translate an illustration as a literal now

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I'm going to make the case why it's an illustration in a bit, but let me deal with telios How is telios? Used is telios only used to refer to Perfect meaning flawless

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Okay. Well, let's look at some passages uh, we could look at first corinth, uh, sorry at philippians 315 philippians 315

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Let us therefore As many as are perfect Have this attitude and if anything you have a

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Different attitude god will reveal that also to you now

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Unless you're a sinless perfectionist This passage most people

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Sinless perfectionists aside, which they got other issues But most people are going to recognize that we as human beings even as believers are not flawless

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He's saying as many as you are perfect Is he saying that human beings can be flawless?

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That is not his argument there He's saying many of you are complete or mature in christ

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Colossians 4 12 Epaphroditus Who is one of your number a bond slave of jesus christ sends you his greeting?

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Also laboring earnestly for you in his prayers That you may stand perfect and fully assured

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In all the will of god Is does that mean that again are we?

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Flawless is this perfection? James 1 4 and let endurance have its perfect Uh, well let uh, let endurance have its perfect result

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So that you may be perfect and complete lacking nothing

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Now here you have the idea of perfect Meaning completion or maturity used with another word that means complete

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So are we saying that we have arrived notice each of these passages are used of human beings even of believers

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And unless you believe you could be sinlessly perfect with many scripture passages say no, we still sin.

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We are not flawless first corinthians 2 and 6

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But if we speak wisdom among those who are mature Now this one's translated mature

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It's the same word telling us a wisdom However, not of this age nor of the rulers of the age

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Who are passing away? So in first corinthians 2 6 again, we speak wisdom.

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Are we? perfect This is translated in in new american standard as mature.

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Why because that's what it's referring to the maturity We also see it translated that way in hebrews 5 14

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But solid food is for the mature Who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good from evil again

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Do christians are they flawless? The the argument that the because it says the word perfect it must refer to christ

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Does not fit with any of these verses that we said Has jesus spoken to in such a way to use this word well he has matthew 19 21

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Jesus said to him If you wish to be complete That's the same word telling us if you wish to be complete

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Go and sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven

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And come follow me If we sell all our profession profession Possessions, sorry if we sell our possessions will that make us flawless?

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No, it won't It won't make us flawless and so what we end up seeing here is just because of the fact that the word is used

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Does not mean that this is something that is of a state of flawlessness

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All right, just want to put that out there to start Okay, so Now let me build there's on this as we look at this passage in first corinthians 13 8 to 13

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We have seven different possibilities of what the teleos could refer to Okay And so the rest of this article that I have is going to go through those seven

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Points and explain why some of them can or can't be and what is the teleos referring to so let's look through them number one the completion of the canon of scripture number two

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The maturity of the church at the close of the apostolic age number three the death of believers and their immediate presence with the lord and what's meant by that is that Once someone dies and they're in the presence of the lord these things these gifts would cease

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Because they're not using them on earth anymore. So that would make sense Number four the rapture of the church

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I will admit that i've had a hard time understanding how this one kind of fits But it is one of the arguments that have been made the eternal state

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And this they come to with a conclusion of when we when we know as we're fully known that that refers to to that and so what they'll get to is

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You know is seeing that the return of christ is is used when we see him face to face And so they say that's when we see when christ returns

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The number six the eternal state is being known as we're fully known as the argument for that Uh, which is also used for the number seven

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The the escalon the end times that the unit as a unified whole that that end time system where all of a sudden everything

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Is over Okay, so as we look at these from this list three through seven can be excluded because Most of those who hold to any of these views interpret the word perfect as being flawless a flawless object such as christ

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Or do not understand that verses 11 and 12 are to are the illustrations of something partial to complete

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And what they're doing is taking that illustration and making it a literal so both

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Both points that we dealt with above So when we look at this and go through this we're only left with Well, there's number three

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Is an exception that it would be and number three is that the death of the believer uh

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Being meaning that the the gifts will cease when a person Dies because well all of our gifts in a sense might cease

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I mean if you have the gift of teaching we're not going to be teaching in heaven We don't need to be teaching in heaven.

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We're going to be taught in heaven by christ himself so Yes, those gifts won't need to be used

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The gift of prophecy and revelation that we're not going to need that We're not going to need I don't believe a gift of languages because we're all going to speak the same language.

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I believe It will be like the time before babel Remember babel was a curse.

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So if god is going to restore the things I think he's going to restore the languages prior to the curse of babel

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Okay, so What does the complete refer to it leaves us with two options here?

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The completion of the canon of scripture or the maturity of the church at the at the apostolic age

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Which both are basically the same time. What is the closing of the apostolic age? Well, it's when the canon was closed.

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It was when the last apostle died which was john and john wrote the last book the book of revelation shortly before he died

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And therefore the timeline between the canon of scripture or the end of the apostolic age

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Both of them are close in period but both of them also are about 2 000 years ago So looking at this we would end up saying that this is not speaking of something that would exist today

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Now some will take like I said, they take the passage Many will take the passage That looking face to face always means looking at a person face to face now if That argument and that argument has been made um

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There's a debate that uh, we did matt slick and I matt would take a different position than me and Matt and I debated this

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And in the debate he said face to face always refers to a personal face to face encounter

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Now if it's always that way Then it's got to be always that way

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But it's not always that way Because in proverbs 27 19 it says this as in water face reflects face

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So the heart of man reflects man and and that in in hebrew, it's face face man man.

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It's it's face to face What is it speaking of there? It's speaking of the idea of reflection

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How is it used in first corinthians 13 And verse 12.

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Well, it's comparing a mirror to face to face What is it?

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What do we do when we look at a mirror we reflect? in a mirror We see our reflection

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And if you have a dim mirror, you don't have a complete picture, but if I see somebody in person

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I see them face to face The way we look you guys are looking at me if you're watching this

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You're seeing my face. It's ugly. I know sorry about that. But what you see

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Is he cold putting his hands up like this in the background so What you see is clearly

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You can see clearly when you look in a mirror In the morning, you're seeing a clear reflection

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That was not the way a mirror was in the first time So when we look at the hermeneutics, one of the things you do is you go back to what the meaning was at that time

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What did a mirror mean at that time? What is a mirror? Well mirror was not the mirror we have today

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So it's something they would see dimly and he even emphasizes that You see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face

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So When we look at this looking at the context, is there something else in the context?

36:37

That that would tell us that maybe just maybe

36:43

There's something else here that Is saying that these gifts will stop

36:50

With something within the context of teleos well If the idea of teleos is referring to the canon of scripture.

36:58

So the canon of scripture at the time paul is writing first corinthians The canon of scripture was not complete.

37:06

It was partial What is the gift of prophecy Well the gift of prophecy there's two folds to it one is

37:15

Foretelling the fourth foretelling the future and then forth telling the past so one of the things that we have with the scriptures

37:26

The canon of scripture is the forth telling the the giving of revelation What is wisdom or knowledge?

37:34

Well that too is considered to be a revelatory gift So I think what you have here is three relevant revelatory gifts why because what was the gift of languages it was speaking

37:46

The gospel speaking god's word in another language And so what you end up seeing is you have these three revelatory gifts

37:55

That would fit with a canon of scripture being written that canon of scripture would fit within the context of a partial to completion

38:04

As we look through all this It sure seems

38:10

Like one of those seven is is rising and bubbling to the top And that is the canon of scripture

38:17

It's the only one that consistently interprets the context and Look, not only looking at the context but also looking at The rules of interpretation.

38:30

Like I said, most of the arguments people make The issue they have is because of the fact

38:36

That they take verses 10 to 12 that are illustrations and they make those literal

38:44

Now if this is the canon of scripture an interesting thing

38:51

Because what we see in the greek here in verse 8 it says Um, but if there is gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with Interesting the word done away.

39:05

It's the same as where it says if there is knowledge, it will be done away in the greek

39:11

This verb form is a future indicative third person Okay So so i'm sorry future passive indicative third person

39:22

And so the thing is it's passive in other words a passive verb means it happens to me right

39:30

I'm, not the actor in this action. It's an action that occurs to me.

39:35

So so prophecy knowledge that whatever the telios is it causes the prophecy and knowledge to stop

39:47

Okay, it immediately stops its future Which for the canon would be future because it isn't closed

39:53

Actually, all of the things all seven of them are future to paul's writing of this So they're all future

40:00

But whatever it is This completion causes prophecy and knowledge to stop.

40:05

Well, what are prophecy and knowledge their revelatory gifts? So they're going to immediately stop why because god is not giving further revelation

40:15

If he's not giving further revelation, he is not continuing With that gift it stops

40:23

That gift is not like most gifts where we get them at salvation And we get the gift at salvation and we have that gift

40:32

This is a gift where god gives it for the purposes that he has such as writing scripture now

40:42

Why do I bring all that up because this middle verse is quite interesting If they are middle part of the verse if there are tongues they will cease now the word cease in greek

40:54

Is this verb form is future just like the other but it's a future middle indicative

41:01

What does that mean andrew? Well, what this means is that this verb form? The person does it to themselves.

41:08

In other words, this ceases on its own Why would that be important well the prophecy and the knowledge are going to cease when the scripture is complete

41:18

They are going to cease because god's not giving further revelation The tongues will cease because if god stops giving that gift

41:26

Then that gift dies out with the person And therefore they no longer have that gift now

41:36

I've said all that Let me deal with one passage that matt slick will bring up When if you watch the debate we have go to the striving fraternity youtube channel, you'll see the debate

41:46

One last verse to deal with because matt this is where matt hinges a lot of it It says in verse first corinthians 1 7 so that you are not lacking any gift awaiting eagerly the revelation of jesus christ

42:02

Who Will also confirm you to the end blameless in the day of our lord.

42:07

Jesus christ now what's important about this? Well, the word gift here is charisma's the same word used for these charismatic gifts

42:17

Therefore what we end up seeing Is That this is saying that We're not lacking the church is not lacking any charismatic gift

42:29

When until the till the end till christ comes and so many will look at this and matt will make the argument to say

42:38

That this is something that It doesn't end until christ's return

42:45

Okay, but the key on this is the word lacking That becomes the key why?

42:52

Because he's saying That there's that the church is not lacking the gift

42:58

If there's if there's When we when we look at this The idea of a lack requires a need

43:08

Okay It it literally Could be translated to fall short to fall behind to need

43:16

So so the question is if if this is the canon of scripture Do we need any more revelation today?

43:26

No So all the people who have dreams and visions and are going up to heaven and having all these things

43:34

No, there's no more need for that because we have a completed canon The canon of scripture is complete

43:41

So if the canon of scripture is complete, then we don't lack anything And so we are not lacking

43:49

So the argument like that matt would make is that these gifts must continue until christ return

43:54

Because otherwise the church will be lacking them And his argument would say that it's the church universal because there's plenty of churches that don't have people speaking in tongues

44:03

So those churches will be lacking but he would extend it to universal But if this is speaking of the canon of scripture completing this gift, then there's no more need for the gift

44:18

Then the church isn't lacking the gift. So there's no problem with first corinthians 1 and verse 7

44:27

So I laid all this out to say To encourage you that what I believe in the in the context what

44:36

I believe from looking at the rules of interpretation That the the most viable answer for what is the teleos?

44:46

What is it referring to is the canon of scripture? And if they if it is the canon of scripture now someone could say, okay.

44:53

Well, it's the apostolic agent again I'm saying there's not much of a difference there But once that was done

44:58

There was no more need for these gifts because we have a completed canon And they would stop

45:05

And therefore tongues cease now some will argue andrew. What about healing? Well, first corinthians 13 doesn't mention anything about healing ceasing

45:15

Does that mean healing ceased? Well, that's a different argument. We could take on for a different day But since I see in the background now, dr.

45:23

Silvestro and Pastor justin have come in so A little bit late, but I welcome you guys

45:31

I I just pastor justin. You didn't get to hear the whole thing anthony. You came in a little bit after but um,

45:38

And josiah dropped out. So I just have to say I heard somebody talking in tongues on sunday

45:45

Really where yeah, they're reading out the king james bible And uh, it just threw me for a loop.

45:52

My wife speaks in tongues every day Yeah, because she's speaking english to me and that's not her made her her native tongue that's not her language that she knows um

46:05

So let me there was a question up here Earlier that I really wanted to get to and actually I was going to get to it at the very beginning

46:13

Uh melissa asks andrew did the cessationist movie get fully funded

46:20

Well, the answer is yes Not only was it fully funded, but I had the privilege

46:29

Of knowing that striving for eternity was the one to Push it over the edge I was able to call les lansphere and say hey

46:39

Are you watching your screen? Here it goes and we watched it go over. We watched the confetti fall

46:45

And so yes, it is fully funded that will be coming out. Uh Cole is saying i'd love to see andrew on remnant radio

46:54

The charismatics quote with a seat belt unquote as they call themselves uh cole

47:01

Let them know that they could come on here anytime. We could have the discussion um, we have

47:06

You know, michael salman is backstage. We've already Had him on a show with the same topic.

47:12

So we're not afraid of it. That's for sure um so i'm gonna let you you guys i'm gonna let you and and justin speak while I try to now catch up on all of the messages that that Uh, michael and cole have been putting in the private chat because I couldn't catch up with all that Well, you got to unmute yourself though first just saying well

47:34

I muted myself so I didn't talk over you, uh, there's one I don't know how to pronounce that.

47:40

Yeah, I didn't know how to pronounce his name either. So velo Velo cray velocity or something.

47:45

Anyway, it says so why would tongues cease with a completed canon? Tongues do not equal new revelation um, and I i'll tell you

47:56

First there's two things you got going on here Um, I didn't hear what andrew had to say, but I do know for a fact that he and I agree on the interpretation of first corinthians 13

48:06

I've actually I did a paper on this as I I did a lot of research Uh john mccarthur and many others

48:14

As they read this passage, um beginning in verse eight says love never fails But where there be prophecies they will fail where there be tongues they will cease

48:23

Uh, whether there be a knowledge It will vanish away for we know in part and we prophesy in part

48:29

But when that which is perfect and that word perfect here can is the the word teleos

48:35

But what what it says it can it cannot just only mean the word perfect as in in an absolute perfection

48:43

Okay, but it also another word is complete Okay, when that word when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away with the partial parts are the the partial

48:57

Miraculous sign gifts those miraculous gifts of tongues that we just saw It says love will never never fail love is never going to fail

49:06

Prophecies, they're going to fail tongues. They're going to cease even the knowledge Will be vanishing away, but what's never going to fail there is love and as we've talked about this many times before The overarching principle here is that the corinthians did not have love

49:22

They didn't have a loving spirit. They didn't have a loving heart. They were doing everything out of pride Uh, that was their the context of their culture

49:29

So when you say why would tongue cease with a completed canon and you said that tongues

49:35

Does not equal new revelation. That's not what this passage says. The passage actually tells us that It's part of the gifts of god

49:45

Because the tongues and the revelation and all these things are the evidence signs of the work of an apostle

49:54

They're the evidence signs as we've seen in other scripture that they're the evidence signs of the work of the apostle and One of the biggest evidence signs of the work of the apostle is the indwelling spirit that carried them along To have them write the canon and when that canon is complete there is no more reason for the miraculous gifts

50:15

Now you can disagree with that, but that's what we see in this passage Well I was going to answer it a different way in the fact that So what prophecy and knowledge?

50:27

Are revelatory gifts exactly are tongues a revelatory gift. Well, they can be But whether they are or are not doesn't actually matter

50:38

Why do I say that because this passage is saying these three things end at the same time

50:44

So if the canon of scripture is closed in other words, the revelation has stopped the prophecy and knowledge have stopped

50:52

Then so has tongues About the apostles being over and therefore the the apostolic gifts and so let me define some terms for folks

51:03

We use a couple different things charismatic gifts. I defined that earlier They're sometimes called sign gifts gifts of healing and tongues and things like that prophecy and knowledge the

51:15

So you have sometimes called sign gifts charismatic gifts or apostolic gifts

51:21

All referring to the same thing Now i'm breaking that down even more those sign gifts that we have or apostolic or however you want to refer to it there's also some of those that are revelatory gifts, why do

51:33

I make that distinction? I made that distinction because revelatory gifts act different than other gifts

51:40

If you have the gift of teaching you get that at salvation When you're saved you get the gift of teaching and you have it the rest of your life

51:50

Therefore that's given at salvation That's not the case with revelation

51:57

We don't say that scripture is inspired Because paul wrote it. It's not that he had the gift of revelation the gift of prophecy and everything

52:05

He wrote was inspired How do we know that because of there are two at least one and or possibly two letters to corinth

52:13

Yeah, I hold to two as well. I see putting your finger up too. Yeah, there's two I believe there's two letters that paul wrote to corinth that we don't have

52:21

They weren't seen as scripture at the time of his writing How do we know that? Well, he refers to those letters

52:29

One that he it seems he wrote before first corinthians and one that he wrote between first and second corinthians

52:35

So he wrote four letters. It's not that paul had the gift and that made it inspired

52:43

It's that god worked through paul. So the writing of that he did was inspired So it's a gift that comes upon someone

52:51

And that's what makes the revelatory gifts different. And so when those when the revelation stopped so did those gifts, but guess what?

52:58

tongues By the inspiration of scripture is put in that same category in verse 8

53:05

Another question that came up from That gentleman Uh, he said so tongues is not for edification, but as a sign gift question mark

53:15

And so I I went and posted this uh, first corinthians 14 22 says so then tongues are for a sign

53:25

Not for those who believe but for unbelievers But prophecy is for a sign

53:30

Not for unbelievers, but to the believers the point is is very clear That yes, it is revelation to the unbeliever

53:39

It's a sign to the unbeliever that the god of the universe is giving them something That uh is is outside of their realm of possibility.

53:48

They can't understand. How is it that andrew? Or anthony is talking to them in normal everyday english and they're hearing in their own

53:57

Language, that's that word tongues Okay, uh bad translation all around.

54:03

It shouldn't be the word tongues. It should be languages. Yes, so uh, so what needs to be clear on this

54:10

Is we can go back we can trace back to the very point Where we had a certain king who did not want to upset the applecart too much

54:18

And so instead of saying languages, he said he said this is tongues. Let's keep going with the tongue

54:23

Oh, what's so much the king because he wasn't so involved in it, but oh, yeah It the in in 1611 the word tongues meant language it's a dialect.

54:32

Yeah, it's a dialect so so this is not Something that we would be surprised at that they would use that language

54:39

The holman christian standard bible was my favorite translation And unfortunately, they got rid of it and made it the christian standard bible and it's no longer my favorite

54:48

But the holman that's not in print anymore Why? Well, they translated the word slave as slave

54:55

Oh, you can't do that everywhere that it's slave. They also translated the word tongues as language

55:03

So by doing that it clarified the issue so much that charismatics were upset with them because it it

55:10

Made it clear what was happening This wasn't some supernatural thing. It's a language now.

55:17

It was supernatural in that time, but it wasn't this I have this angelic language No You know now

55:23

I believe And I and I should state this as well, uh, though he's not here Uh, justin peters agrees with john mcarthur

55:31

Uh, and they take this to be the coming of christ or the end, you know end of the age

55:36

Uh, they do that based like I said on face -to -face being seen christ face -to -face and knowing fully

55:44

Being the end time so that's how they interpret it. I am surprised both of them are outstanding exegetes of scripture

55:52

And it's one of the few areas that I disagree with them, but why do I disagree with them? Because i'm looking at the text of scripture and i'm looking at it within the context and knowing that one of the rules is you don't

56:04

An illustration is there to illustrate a point and it's not there to explain anything else Yeah, that's where people get into trouble when they take an illustration or a parable and try to make it something more than it is

56:15

Yeah Another thing you think about too is if you go look at the book of revelation the miracles the uh

56:23

It's it doesn't cease it magnifies Yeah, when when christ brings his bride home

56:30

The false miracles of the antichrist and the true miracles of god are on on show and display all the way through the rest of Eternity, I mean well antichrist goes for his time

56:42

But for christ, it's uh, all the miracles are through eternity including people hearing uh hearing in their own languages the the message of the gospel going forth, uh through The angels and through you know, the prophets and and all that that come out

56:57

During that time. So so it's I I that's one of the things that kind of pushes me away from the end times issue

57:04

And causes me to see that in the context of the language, uh here that's talking about this has to be discussing the the issue of The the giving of the revelatory word of god.

57:16

Yeah, it has to be the now Let me do it i'm glad michael put this up on on facebook, but he michael is backstage, but he's working while doing this

57:25

And I wanted to address this because he said in the private chat, but here he gave a little bit more explanation so he so I wanted to address this before we move on is he said

57:34

I think you should spend more time showing in scripture where you get the idea that The completion of the canon,

57:41

I think that's what he meant. They're not competition of ken the completion of the canon And the apostolic age is the perfect What tongues were you?

57:52

uh in Mute because so I I think he was doing voice uh Because whatever it it is or was is no longer applicable.

58:03

So again, what is the scripture? Say that says the complete of the canon of scripture and Or the apostolic age is the perfect So so maybe

58:13

I didn't make myself clear michael, I mean I it's called the context And I went

58:19

I think maybe I didn't walk through this well enough, but let me do it quickly again So the fact of what you see is he's making the paul is making the point that love never fails what's he comparing that to we see love never fails, but Throughout all of first corinthians 12 and 13 the emphasis is on love.

58:38

Yeah Especially verse chapter 13 Love is the preeminent gift

58:45

That's the point. He's saying throughout this So he's comparing love which never fails with three gifts that do fail

58:53

Now does fail mean they're an error? No, it means they stop love never stops

59:00

These gifts will those gifts are prophecy tongues or languages and knowledge

59:07

Yeah One never fails three will fail. In other words one is eternal three or not

59:15

Okay Then we we start with the whole idea of partial to completion.

59:20

It starts in verse eight Partial to complete the the complete is love the failure

59:27

The thing that isn't complete Is the prophecy the tongues and the knowledge?

59:34

So prophecy and knowledge and tongues are not complete love is

59:40

Then he goes on for we know in part and prophesy in part. So what are we talking? He's talking about the knowledge and prophecy that he just mentioned in verse eight those two revelatory gifts

59:52

It's the giving of revelation So the knowledge is in part Revelation the prophecy is in part revelation

01:00:01

But when the perfect comes the teleos comes the partial what's the partial referring to prophecy and knowledge which are revelatory gifts will be done away with therefore

01:00:14

What is the completion of revelatory gifts? the canon

01:00:21

And that's what you end up seeing is so looking at the context This is speaking of revelatory gifts that cease because the revelation is complete

01:00:33

I'm, just walking through the scripture. Yeah And and one thing that I believe drew, uh funny to point out is that you have uh, uh, let's see

01:00:45

Yeah, he says here. Don't forget the first corinthians was written Before acts and acts refers to tongues as a known language um, what you have to realize is is

01:00:56

You have in in the in this timeline Uh, these books are being written really close to one another by uh paul by By paul's emmanuensis, which is dr.

01:01:10

Luke and he's writing it for Uh, he's writing these things so that everybody especially theophilus

01:01:18

Will understand what is going with on with christ and what is going on with the times of the christian believers

01:01:25

And and what the routes are taking what they were all doing and what their sole purpose was

01:01:30

In the proclamation of the gospel and the bringing forth of the word of god And and how god was doing that, you know god the holy spirit was doing

01:01:39

The massive works that he was doing so corinthians is is a church that has has been born out of um a culture where where paul is, uh, he he's

01:01:53

Has has very little hands -on work with corinth the corinthian church He doesn't have as much hands -on time with them and they came out of such a pagan

01:02:03

Culture where they were speaking in languages and tongues if you will

01:02:08

Uh, not known languages, but they were speaking in tongues to false gods and false deities And they thought they could bring these things into the true church

01:02:16

And so if you read, uh, the book of corinthians, for example First corinthians itself is is a it's a polemical.

01:02:24

It's an argumentative book. It's a corrective book The the whole purpose in it. Let me look at the tone of it

01:02:29

He's correcting them so that they will understand they are in error and the the worship they're doing the the way that they're they're they're uh trying to exalt christ

01:02:41

Is with the mingling of false worships and that's why he says You know if you're going to do these things at that time

01:02:51

He says if you're going to do these things you need to do it and uh with a decent order about yourself you need to do this and understanding that these are not the primary tools that you should be trying to seek after the the the primary or the

01:03:04

The the highest uh gifts the highest gift is love and you're without it

01:03:11

You guys I mean think about how how without it they were when they went to have uh When they went to have communion or when they went to have the lord's supper

01:03:18

There's people starving death over here on one side And there's people that are rich and wealthy on the other side

01:03:24

And they bring the rich and wealthy and they give them exalted seats and they all get fat and drunk And and and the other guys are sitting over in the corner and they're starving to death and he goes this is not right

01:03:35

What you're doing is wrong and he says to them I'm gonna have to sit here and correct you and he did it with a grieving heart

01:03:42

To have to correct them and if you'll notice he has to actually say to them I am so glad that you're exalted and elevated above everyone

01:03:51

He says i'm so glad that you have achieved the status and position I'm, so glad you have you're so much better than all of us worthless apostles

01:04:01

You're so much better than all of us, you know, and he's he's berating them because in their pride

01:04:09

They've grabbed a hold of all this paganism and brought it in and they're not doing things with humility

01:04:15

So you have to really uh, look at the context like andrew was saying of this entire book

01:04:21

Before you can just take one verse Please don't take one verse Out and try to draw that as your life verse and things don't do that Look at the context of the book and let me encourage feel if you go to striving fraternity .org

01:04:33

to just do a search on tongues You'll find another article that I wrote called the biblical view of tongues

01:04:41

And what it does is go through first corinthians 12 13 and 14 and give the context for those so So that you can see what the context is

01:04:51

Yeah, right so Um, let me uh before before we bring cole in.

01:04:57

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01:05:57

So with that they bring cole in I I know michael's been he's he's not his device is not connected

01:06:04

But he's been chatting with us trying to answer his thing. So let me say welcome to cole Good evening, fellas

01:06:11

Good evening. I know you've been chatting up a bunch here. And so, uh Yeah, there's there was this really interesting video that I came across a couple years ago from apologia and apologia uh, they're uh

01:06:25

Kind of a reformed church out of arizona. They have a different eschatology, but they're more like a millennial

01:06:32

And whatnot, but no, they're not there We're not here for that they're they're uh going to be very post -millennial their

01:06:40

Theonomists are post -millennial I misspoke. But anyway, they have a video five minute video of one of their event street preacher evangelists who claims that now

01:06:49

He doesn't speak spanish But when he was giving his sermon or his, you know giving the gospel on the street

01:06:56

There was a man who does not speak english that speaks spanish that heard him

01:07:01

Giving the gospel in english, but he heard the the the gospel in spanish in his native language

01:07:08

So you're saying that the evangelist spoke english. Yep, but the other guy heard spanish

01:07:14

Yes, and so they found this out because I guess he was in his car and he had somebody with him

01:07:20

That was bilingual But he started to break down and cry

01:07:25

Because the gospel reached him and so they got out of their vehicle and went and talked to this guy

01:07:30

And then they had to have a conversation through a translator So that's the claim that's the claim and and you know, this is the thing

01:07:40

I can't exegete experience So when that scripture that you posted earlier

01:07:46

You know if they're gonna you know, if they're gonna you know, first I would need to see that they actually don't know that they don't know spanish

01:07:55

Right. That was the claiming. He didn't that's the claim Had people ever Even within the church lied before.

01:08:03

Hmm um This is interesting. Dr. Sefestro is in here twice Yeah So the video that cole is referencing

01:08:11

I want I want to hear this. Um, it's john barrows that he's referencing um who who does a lot of uh

01:08:18

Witnessing at the abortion mill in orlando actually had a chance to preach with him yeah back in like february and a lot of guys have um, very well -known guy in the abortion, um preaching at abortion mills and uh

01:08:31

Good friends with r .c. Sproul. They preached together a lot for years down there before r .c. Passed so i'm just uh

01:08:39

My laptop you pull it up you pull it up and listen They they michael has this to say and let me so i'll address this while cole's even here

01:08:46

Uh, sorry that it's covering. Uh, well, maybe it's a good thing. It's covering pastor. Justin's face. Michael just has a lot there

01:08:51

And now cole's ducking down All right, michael. Salman says again this is a

01:08:59

Formalization that is not found in scripture The whole idea that the canon that speaking of the canon is not you know, so he's saying the canon completion

01:09:09

Uh and apostolic age ended in 100 a .d. Yet people were still speaking in tongues prophets

01:09:16

Still existed and spoke and knowledge was still given even in the martyrs who died were given such prophecy and knew they would die and What was going to happen to them?

01:09:31

And their cities polycarp and he mentions several of them, right? Uh all spoke in knowledge and prophecy

01:09:39

Do you not think? That this alone contradicts your your format

01:09:45

Format as a I mean he says dot dot dot. So whatever he typed it wasn't finished um No, I don't think it does at all because remember the the speaking of tongues

01:09:56

You get that gift polycarp who you mentioned was the disciple of john Which means he was alive before the canon of scripture

01:10:05

Was complete so he could have been given the gift of tongues And still had the gift of tongues until he died

01:10:14

When he died that It remember I said it's a middle voice It acted on its own.

01:10:20

So his own death brings about the end the ceasing of tongues Once god stops giving them.

01:10:27

They're no longer being given That that's what you end up having so No, I don't think it contradicts now.

01:10:34

What about people who prophesy the future? People do that today

01:10:40

In fact the prophets today who who claim to be prophets admit that they're 80 to 85 percent, right

01:10:49

Okay, then they're not a prophet of god because the one time they're they say something false

01:10:57

They're they should be stoned deuteronomy 18. Yeah correct and so the the thing you end up having to see with this is

01:11:06

The fact that a broken clock is right twice a day does not mean it's from god Some people are just really good at guessing some people are really good at saying this is what's going to look

01:11:19

Anthony justin you've been with me for years. How many years have I been predicting? That what we're seeing in our culture today is happening.

01:11:28

In fact for how many years Did I did I say that whoever came after trump was going to go so radically to the left

01:11:38

That we're gonna we're gonna think obama looks great you want to know who else really accurately, uh described today's culture ted kaczynski

01:11:49

No, seriously, I listened to a podcast where these guys did over like 10 or so episodes they read the entire manifesto

01:11:56

Yeah, and it's ridiculous so you don't have to be a prophet to be able to Read the tea leaves.

01:12:03

Yeah, we all see what the future I mean Why how did I know what's coming? Because i've watched history

01:12:10

Yeah, yeah, uh one thing to to point out here, um, i'm actually um pulling up the uh, new testament commentaries on the first corinthians by solomon kister maker, um, he's um uh, this commentary is is one of the one of the uh

01:12:29

Ones that's recommended by shepherd's theological seminary. Um, wait, wait, wait

01:12:34

Shepherd's theological seminary. Do we know anyone that goes there? Do you know any students there?

01:12:42

Oh, hey pastor justin I love my seminary. Okay, so he says that um, and I can't pull up the page here, but it's on chapter 13 um

01:12:54

It says, uh, it's actually page Uh 463 464. It says, uh, the greek word, uh, keratagan, uh that paul uses four times and in in verses 8 10 11 excuse me, uh is one that Translates to the meaning of to set aside or to cease and pass away

01:13:17

The idea here is is related to the adjective argos is to be become inactive to to become idle unproductive and uh

01:13:27

The verb means that something is to be put aside and has become ineffective now the whole the whole idea

01:13:33

And i'm and i'm reading this because I want to make sure that we answer, uh, mike's mike's argument here.

01:13:40

Um, See the idea is that it doesn't like like andrew said it's it's not a a hard fast

01:13:46

Okay, it stops immediately. It slowly becomes Unnecessary and ineffectual it becomes set aside

01:13:54

And to pass away. It doesn't have a hard fast stop at 91 ad

01:14:02

It has a time where it's useful For the body of christ and then on its own accord falls away.

01:14:09

I as he said uh polycarp was a student of paul, you know, these men

01:14:17

These men were were students Of the apostles and they were alive during that time and as they passed away

01:14:26

The gift of tongues and things passed away Um, it says that it's this discard discards things that belongs, uh to his childhood childhood days

01:14:36

We discard prophecy and knowledge because we prophesy and we know only in part

01:14:44

And you know, I could I could keep on going but it just it The whole idea here is is that this thing is slowly fading away as it's being laid aside

01:14:55

It's not just a one day boom gone. It's laid aside and put away as the canon has been completed already

01:15:03

Yeah So and and folks if there's some of you listening that you disagree with with the interpretation that I gave come on in And challenge me i'm not opposed to it um kt says this

01:15:13

I met a kid young man in mexico who obviously could understand english, but he pretended not to I could tell when he responded.

01:15:24

I knew a small amount of spanish and so do could people be faking it? No, I mean really?

01:15:30

Yeah How do I know I remember in new york city on the subways and anthony you you've been in new york on the subways, right?

01:15:37

I've been on the subways there. What do you see? I remember once talking to someone Who lived in new york going on subways saw a guy in queens

01:15:49

Who on the subway? This guy walks up to another person that was supposedly sick and and You know, he just walked up and said

01:16:00

I heal you and the guy got jumped up and said I feel healed i'm i'm better The next day

01:16:08

He saw the same guy down in manhattan who was healed Supposedly healed and he was now the evangelist healing someone else

01:16:20

He was healing the guy that supposedly healed him the day before oops

01:16:27

Because because when they did this and then they walked around asking for money That this my friend of mine said hey, wait,

01:16:33

I saw you up in queens yesterday and you healed him How did you get sick

01:16:41

Can people fake it yeah, they can why would they why would they I I would say there is an aspect where you know, some people really want to believe

01:16:50

I would say with the the video that This thing is like this guy is a little bit more well known has a little more credibility.

01:16:57

Oh, well john. John barrows Yes, but the guy he's speaking to yeah, probably not. How do you how do you know he actually heard it in spanish?

01:17:06

Right, I mean here's here's one Verification for that and paul says that you're not to speak in tongues unless you know, there's an interpreter there

01:17:19

And not just you know That's also be more than one yeah, and you think there's

01:17:26

There's this problem that We I mean we all do it. We really want to believe those things that we've heard

01:17:33

Yes and held on to I and I remember Years back my grandma and grandpa used to say that that you know

01:17:40

When when the when the lord returns you're not going to know the this one from one season from from another

01:17:46

And I held on to that. I remember I like an idiot I said that in front of some guys that actually knew the bible and this was before I did

01:17:54

They said, um, no, that's not in the bible. I'm like, yeah it is They said okay, can you show us and I went looking and looking and looking and I found out no

01:18:02

It's exactly the opposite. Yeah I'm in harvest all those things are never going to end until the lord returns to that point.

01:18:08

Let me bring michael's point up. He's saying Brothers, we cannot keep moving the goalpost.

01:18:14

My point is where in scripture does it say canon apostolic age? Okay um, i'm gonna

01:18:22

Muted anthony you're muted Calling us brothers, he's not a trinitarian

01:18:29

He's not a believer Like I mean, let's not forget this about michael salmon.

01:18:36

Yeah Well, so let me let me let me make this clear. I mean, maybe maybe I haven't been clear So so and folks everybody that's watching in the chat if you think i've been clear

01:18:47

Post that so that we can see so see if it's just me if you think I haven't been clear on this

01:18:52

Post that put it in the comments right now and then and pastor justin will put them up and we can see whether whether um

01:18:59

That's right. Yeah drew is saying where in scripture does it say trinity well And see that's what i'm trying to get at here.

01:19:05

Michael. You keep on saying that you know, uh Well, where does it say canon apostolic age?

01:19:12

We're using today's terminology uh talk talking about things that scholars have come up with to have an

01:19:20

Understanding the canon of scripture that word and by the way, you spelled the word canon wrong. Um, uh

01:19:26

That is not Written down in the scripture to tell us about the canon of scripture It's the what we come to understand as the 66 books that are canonized and brought together

01:19:37

And and just so that we're clear the canon of scripture was was codified when the authors

01:19:46

Wrote the bible when they when they proclaimed it and the ones that were actively hearing it were agreeing with it and submitting to it as their scriptural authority from god

01:19:59

And it was proven to them by the apostles that were writing these things down or their emmanuences by the way that word means

01:20:06

Uh stenographer someone that was writing on on their behalf And um, so they were writing these these books down and the people alive at the time who could verify

01:20:18

God's call upon their these apostles the authority that they had to be The prophets and the proclaimers and the miracle workers by the sign gifts that These were the ones that they agreed that these were the ones

01:20:32

That wrote the scriptures and they agreed that that was canon and it was not something that happened in the roman catholic church 300 years later 200 years later.

01:20:40

Just want to make sure that's clear. Let's see how the voting is doing chris huff andrew clear uh, melissa clear as crystal

01:20:50

Um Drew says oh, I didn't know the guy wasn't trinitarian He's bitarian.

01:20:56

I think is what it's called where he doesn't believe the holy spirit is god Uh, okay. Jody says yeah.

01:21:01

Yep. Very clear said it more than twice um Let's see who else uh

01:21:11

Mer uh, here we go. Mercy says clear. Sorry. Sorry. Oh You you're going you're going further down Um, i'm trying to see which one so so drew says pretty clear uh

01:21:24

I I think everyone is is seeing I don't see anyone saying i'm not clear But let me try this one last time for michael

01:21:31

And and why is it hard for michael? Because his experience Is determining how he's looking at this that that's why

01:21:39

That's what you end up seeing every time and so That's what makes it hard and and therefore let me bring it up again.

01:21:47

Here we go. Here's your charismatic gifts And there is god flicking the man off the off the god in the bible doesn't care about your feelings

01:21:57

That man is being flicked off of the edge of a cliff The man represents your feelings and the bible is doing the flicking because God doesn't care about your feelings.

01:22:08

That doesn't mean god does not care about feelings It means your feelings are not the authority

01:22:14

The bible is so i'll try this one more time So michael try to pay attention to this

01:22:20

What is prophecy? It's revelation What is knowledge? It is revelation

01:22:26

So in verse 8 we see those two gifts that refer to revelation

01:22:31

In verse 9, it says that those two are in part Yes, so the revelation is in part

01:22:39

Verse 10 says that the thing that's partial Is complete The word talias means complete or mature or perfect not flawless, but that is completed

01:22:53

Like a jigsaw puzzle when you get it done. It's perfect. It's complete. It's finished So, what do you have

01:23:01

You end up having that the thing that has to be If the gifts are revelatory and they're partial

01:23:09

Then when they complete then those things happen. Well, what is the completing of the revelation?

01:23:15

the canon This is simple logic from the context of scripture

01:23:23

I'm another thing too. Well, hold on i'm looking at the at the words here in scripture i'm looking at them in context and i'm following the rules of interpretation

01:23:33

We said at the very beginning, how do we know what telios refers to the immediate context?

01:23:39

What is the immediate context? two revelatory gifts that are incomplete

01:23:46

That become completed So, how do we know it's the canon of scripture because that's the completion of revelation

01:23:53

Well, and another reason that we can also tell um, just to point this out Is that was the model we saw in the old testament?

01:24:01

In the old testament you had the prophets i'm going to continue reading from the new testament commentaries It says two matters stand out that as paul writes

01:24:10

The personal pronouns we and the present tense of the verb to know and to prophesy

01:24:16

Does the pronoun refer to paul and his associates or does he include the readers of his epistles?

01:24:24

Is the present tense limited to his age? Or is there still a valid today paul employs the personal pronoun?

01:24:33

We only in verses 9 through 12 obviously in general sense and the present tense in the um,

01:24:41

Uh in the in in the verb that the verb does uh does not appear to be limited To his own time notice that in contrast verses 9 and 10

01:24:50

Uh, he he contrasts verse 9 and 10 by saying when the perfection comes

01:24:56

The partial shall be done set aside and then he goes on to say if knowledge pertains to our aptitude to comprehend and interpret god's revelation

01:25:07

What is the meaning of prophesying? persons who uh

01:25:12

Persons who filled the office of prophet in the old and new testament times received divine revelation

01:25:20

And proclaimed it to god's people Prophets and these two errors eras were instrumental in writing the scripture

01:25:28

But in addition to developing and completing the canon Prophets interpreted god's word to his people when the book of books of the old testament were completed the office of prophet ended

01:25:42

Similarly when the new testament canon was was perfected The number of prophets dwindled and eventually disappeared exactly what andrew and and anthony and myself

01:25:54

We've been been saying this entire time. So, let me michael's trying one more attempt He's saying okay.

01:25:59

I'm in front of a computer taking a poll is not truth Um, no, it's it's i'm not saying it's truth.

01:26:05

Michael I'm saying that i'm asking everyone who's watching live if i've made myself clear

01:26:12

Everybody is saying I made myself clear except you Okay, so he's saying it is easy to get people to agree with you if you believe what you believe

01:26:21

Okay, but he again he's saying again talk about the scripture. Well, i've been talking about the scripture

01:26:27

Here'd be the question. Where do you see the end times in this anywhere in the context? You see his position that this refers to the return of christ is nowhere in scripture

01:26:39

And a facebook user says clear by the way Facebook user wants their name up just go to apologize live .com

01:26:45

and it's there's instructions to allow facebook to give you a name but What we're in this let me i'll read this whole passage again

01:26:52

And let's look at where it is that we find the end times or the return of christ Love never fails

01:27:00

But if if the gift of prophecy they will be done away if the gift of tongues They will cease if the gift of knowledge will be done away

01:27:07

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes the partial will be done away when

01:27:15

I was a child, I used to speak as a child like a child I used to Think like a child reason like a child when

01:27:20

I became a man. I put away childish things For now we see in a mirror dimly but then face to face

01:27:27

Now I know in part, but then i'll know as i'm fully known but now

01:27:32

Faith hope and love abide in these three, but the greatest of these is love in times

01:27:39

Return of christ is nowhere in here Where do they get it? Well, what they do is they say this is called begging the question

01:27:47

So if you're using a logical fallacy, you're breaking rules of interpretation They start with the fact that perfect can only refer to christ and therefore as soon as they get to that they say

01:27:59

That's that's christ. And if that's christ Then that it's got to be his return. However, i've already shown you

01:28:05

Uh in about seven verses That clearly do not mean perfect is without flaw

01:28:14

So perfect doesn't have to mean christ and in the other passages it doesn't mean christ

01:28:21

When when jesus said it is finished. He didn't mean himself. He meant the act of what he was doing.

01:28:28

That's the word telios there So so what you end up seeing is as we look at this

01:28:35

He has to jump out of the context I am making the point because the immediate context is revelation is incomplete and Something comes and completes it.

01:28:47

What is the something? Well, if it's the revelation that's incomplete It's the revelation that is complete now the other way that that michael and others will get to the end times and And return to christ is because what they will do is they will turn and say we'll see we see face to face

01:29:01

And face to face must mean when we see jesus face to face That is not the way that the word is used or the passages you or the phrasing is used in some in proverbs 2719 as water face reflects face that's face to face

01:29:18

And the context there is water right looking into water and so The other way they do it is saying well, when will we fully be known?

01:29:28

Well, none of those are literals each one of those are an illustration of something that is incomplete to completion well, and one thing to point out here too is is michael you you've

01:29:39

You keep on throwing back up as if we haven't answered the questions Um, why don't you read what

01:29:46

I said then? Um, you have you you have to rightly divide the word in this case and you are not

01:29:52

Think about this if I believe that based on our interpretation that the color blue No, I took it down because you weren't reading it anymore.

01:30:00

It was covered. Okay Uh, um the color blue actually I was i'm reading what he said.

01:30:06

I missed it The color blue is no longer here, but somewhere else I saw the color blue that my interpretation is wrong.

01:30:14

Did my interpretation wrong? Your interpretation is wrong Okay, first off the false dichotomy all over the place

01:30:20

Um, okay your argument on the color of blue has nothing to do with what the argument of scripture is here.

01:30:26

Okay Um, you're you're talking about rightly dividing word of truth. Well as chris huff rightly pointed out

01:30:32

Um, who is it that's going to rightly divide the word of truth? It's one filled with the holy spirit the one that believes in christ as as the god the god man

01:30:40

It is the one that believes that he is the second person in trinity It is the one that believes in the holy spirit as the third person in trinity

01:30:47

It is that one that believes in in god the father the first person in the trinity Um, you have to be filled with the holy spirit read what chris actually said then okay

01:30:56

Andrew, michael michael is not a believer who possesses the faith in the lord. Jesus christ His eyes are veiled and the wisdom of scripture is hidden from his unbelieving eyes

01:31:05

Yeah, if you deny the scriptural truth about the trinity about god god and trinity then you are okay

01:31:11

And here's here's the proof michael says wrong face to face is seeing jesus This is found in other texts you cannot

01:31:20

Decide not to use it just because it's saying is not a literal well

01:31:25

I can because it violates the rules of interpretation If you if the only way to come to your conclusion is to break the rules of interpretation

01:31:34

You have a wrong interpretation Face to face does not always in every case mean seeing jesus

01:31:43

Well, we could also water in in proverbs Maybe he thinks that but the reality is it doesn't always mean that but it's the immediate context

01:31:53

See he's jumping to verse 12 And not looking at the immediate point being made in verse 9

01:32:00

Yeah, right verse 9 is connected to verse 10 How do I know that because verse 10 starts with the word but what does that do that's giving a contrast

01:32:09

I said this earlier It's contrasting verse 9 with verse 10 Verse 9 is the partial verse 10 is the complete so whatever is in verse 9 that's partial

01:32:20

Then whatever it is in verse 10 that completes it has to do with verse 9

01:32:26

There's no other way around it. That is what's being complete. So the prophecy and the knowledge are being complete

01:32:33

When does that get completed in scripture? Yeah, when the perfect comes and you have to think about what he's talking about here

01:32:40

If when you say a word therefore, what do you do you want to go find what it's there for I know it sounds cliche -ish but when you're talking about context

01:32:51

You have to look There are passages in scripture that In ephesians, for example, you start looking at the words therefore and it's in every single sentence

01:33:00

You start going therefore therefore therefore you can go all the way up to you know You know many different uh verses and you have to go all the way back to where he gets his first predicate

01:33:11

Now if you look here in verse 8 He says love never fails but Same as therefore it's the same idea as therefore.

01:33:21

Okay, so it's connecting the the words love never fails while love never fails

01:33:28

They're prophecies and they're going to fail Well, whether there's going to be tongues and they are going to cease whether there's knowledge it's going to fast pass away or vanish away

01:33:38

For we know in part we prophesy in part. That's a joiner Therefore vanishing away with knowledge and and and prophecy and tongues

01:33:48

Uh, it says for we know in part we prophesy in part But that goes back to the love part when that which is perfect comes

01:33:55

Then that which is uh in part will be done away with when the perfect comes When the perfect revelation comes then it's done away with and as andrew said

01:34:05

If you keep going he says when I was a child, I spoke as a child. I understood as a child I thought as a child

01:34:10

I became when I became a man. I put away childish things For now, we see in the mirror dimly and and andrew has went through this many times

01:34:17

You know, this is is and as he's talking about this He's saying that there is a partial sight here because of the metal

01:34:26

Uh that was polished and as you barely see it not like today And he's talked about this before many times and but he says but then face to face

01:34:37

Okay, so when the perfect comes You're going to see perfectly not dimly

01:34:43

And it's in in conjunction With the prophecies that are failing the tongues that are failing the knowledge that's failing and vanishing away

01:34:52

The prophecy that's going away and the perfect is the fulfilling of the revelation

01:34:59

It's the fulfilling of god's revelatory work To explain truth to us as I read to you in the in the uh, the new testament commentary.

01:35:07

It's talking about The old testament new testament way that god gave us his revelatory truth so that we can know him

01:35:16

And that's in the word of god. It's not in our opinions or in our Gifts of tongues or our prophecies that we do today second peter has a

01:35:27

Chapter one has a really good button to put on that and it's a Verse 16 where we did not know we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we

01:35:36

When we made known to you the power and the coming of our lord jesus christ But we were eyewitnesses to his majesty for when he received honor and glory from god the father

01:35:46

And the voice was born to him by the majestic glory This is my beloved son with whom

01:35:52

I am well pleased We ourselves heard this very voice born from heaven for we were with him on the holy mountain

01:35:59

And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed to which you would do well to pay attention to as a lamp

01:36:04

Shining in a dark place until the day dawns that the morning star rises in your hearts

01:36:10

Knowing this first of all that no prophecy of scripture comes from someone's own interpretation

01:36:15

Or no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from god as they were carried along by his holy spirit

01:36:24

Yeah Let me just say give some comments that are here. Uh, first off melissa lex is saying

01:36:31

Melissa lex, by the way has a podcast called thoroughly equipped women. You should want to be subscribed and following that one

01:36:37

Uh that is giving provides great information. We're actually going to have her on here at some point Uh to talk about the if gatherings, which is what she's been covering

01:36:47

But she says this really is that easy to understand And it is um you know jody here says

01:36:57

I'm a very simple -minded woman. I appreciate those of you who can explain this However, sometimes being more simple -minded can help paul knew how to say slash right when christ returns.

01:37:08

He didn't And clearly within the context this makes sense that those gifts slowly ended as people with those gifts died out

01:37:17

So so a simple -minded and she's saying that Not me Not on the money, yeah, she's right on the money is right now.

01:37:25

No michael is saying Uh, I did not say just because if you cannot even read my comments correctly, lol, how are you reading the text?

01:37:37

You are adding words. I did not even put there and then he also says again. You're adding your own interpretation and ideas

01:37:44

You are isag eating scripture you are reading your own ideas into the text i'm listening and i'm and you all just get redundant

01:37:57

Restating your error in the text does not make it clear. So so michael

01:38:03

I think there's a plank in your eye Yeah, there's a redundancy issue. Yeah, we we keep pointing it out

01:38:08

You're trying to say that vert that in that the the question Of verse 10 is answered in verse 12

01:38:17

And not in its immediate context when you interpret scripture, it's the immediate context as this is why

01:38:25

Marcy is saying This reminds me of norm. She's obviously a regular listener and remembers norm

01:38:32

So let me put this up facebook user and again if you guys want to go to apologetics live .com

01:38:38

Not only can you join the discussion like cole did every week But you can also have your name get the instruction so we don't say facebook user but Facebook user says knowledge and prophecy are mentioned in part

01:38:50

That is what? Is passing away when the perfect comes Tongues are not mentioned as in part

01:38:59

Tongues cease when the bible was complete the tongues of the bible Were not quote learned behavior unquote the tongues

01:39:08

Today is sorry the tongues today quote is learned behavior unquote People today are not speaking in biblical languages.

01:39:18

They think they are in reality, they are just having the occult experience

01:39:25

And modern day tongues is the greatest example of the modern day demon possession

01:39:31

Now that's hard for people to to take I get it because and and I said that the beginning

01:39:36

I said at the beginning if you weren't here That I know this is an emotional topic for folks and and you can come in and challenge.

01:39:44

I don't have a problem with that you know, I I I'm, enjoying listening you guys speak on this.

01:39:50

Um What the one thing that I think we really need to accentuate now last comment was excellent to this

01:39:57

Is when jesus and the apostles healed they healed immediately and dramatically

01:40:03

Right, this wasn't this wasn't over a period of time It wasn't like it completely it wasn't like I got a little bit better and a little bit better No, it was immediate complete your arm.

01:40:14

You didn't get half You know halfway there when it was in the beginning of the acts with tongues, right?

01:40:19

They didn't have to practice shama lama lama I was just about to say the same thing brother.

01:40:28

I mean, I mean, this is this is really simple Hold on. Hold on. Excuse me. Anthony. I need to interpret what you just said

01:40:33

Because feel may not understand everything what what anthony just said is michael salman You're wrong.

01:40:40

That's that was repent. Put your trust in the real jesus christ That was he spoke in tongues happy interpretation

01:40:49

Yeah Well, and you have to think too. Thanks for talking about her andrew What is that guy's name that does the videos that's on on youtube that where he teaches you start out with baby gibberish.

01:40:59

Yeah, that's uh, Sid roth sid roth. Yeah, he does this and that's what you're talking about He's he's like, okay, it might sound foolish at first, but after a period of time

01:41:08

Yeah, and then just do it faster and faster. But anthony you cut you off. No. No, that's it.

01:41:14

That's it It's just these things were immediate in scripture when it comes to the gifts and that is not the way it's being you know

01:41:20

Practiced you know quote unquote today. Yeah, I mean that should be the first clue for everybody I saw that justin started this comment.

01:41:27

So i'll put it up Uh, are you saying that knowledge ceased yes The knowledge that is that is spoken about where it is a revelatory gift where it is the giving of scripture

01:41:38

Yep, that ceased, you know when it ceased when the canon was complete along with the prophecy Okay, so so michael is saying

01:41:46

I do not appreciate you mocking other christians and insulting people Just because they do not believe as you do

01:41:54

This is not right cut it out Okay, no what i'm saying is What you're doing is mocking god when you say that you're speaking some angelic language that god never said you can

01:42:07

And you're telling us that we're wrong because you're putting your ideas into scripture based on your experience

01:42:13

Michael we've had this discussion. It comes down to your experience every time But let me let me get to a question.

01:42:20

Actually. Let me ask cold. Do you have any other questions before we get to? Last one this for anthony um

01:42:26

I just had things I could I could add so much to this because I grew I I spent a lot of time in these kinds of congregations and like tiny little five people cult churches and just there's so many things that I had to learn along the way and most of it is like you're saying about you know being literate in scripture and understanding what a literal interpretation really is supposed to be you're supposed to understand what the actual tense of the text is

01:42:55

Most people are grammatical historical wherein then you also have metaphors and similes you have all these other types of there's poetry there's

01:43:06

There's history. There's testimony things that actually happen things that are parables that jesus taught in So what you end up with is all of these people believing things where they just take it's

01:43:18

You can even go like listen to a guy like michael hyzer who's really? Acknowledgeable in the old testament and the other and the imagery that is in like isaiah where you know

01:43:28

God's throne is covered in eyes Does god's throne really have eyes or is this the kind of babylonian imagery to show that guess what god's throne is the universe?

01:43:37

And the stars and everything and he controls these things because the babylonians worship those things, right?

01:43:43

So you have all of those things going on That you have to become literate in So you can have a literal interpretation of the scripture the way we use it colloquially is just like okay read it from point to point

01:43:56

And this is what it is and it's not it there's it's it's got all kinds of Awesome, uh things in there to help teach so you can learn from it and understand exactly what's going on and unfortunately, um

01:44:12

Yeah, it leads to people like me who have very early childhood experiences in uh heavy spiritual

01:44:20

Oppression and whatnot and I have that and then all of a sudden I get I latch onto this one nugget

01:44:26

Which is jesus saves which is basically it and then I go down this rabbit hole in this trail of Not having good teaching and discipleship up until like a couple years ago, and i'm 35 with two kids and a wife that's spooky right, but I made it by the grace of god, so I'm, just gonna leave it like that Maybe you can pop the cork on that one.

01:44:47

All right. Well, let me uh, let me bring up we have a question that uh, for anthony here

01:44:54

From clint. He says hey anthony i'm journeying late. Uh, i'm sure i'm off topic

01:45:00

Yeah, you are but that's okay because that's what apologetics live is about we'll answer any of your questions about god in the bible um, we prefer you to come in clint just so you know, but Uh, he says what sources could

01:45:12

I get to learn more about the origin of youth groups? uh, and Dentists are real doctors, by the way.

01:45:20

He's making that point So, uh, and this this is actually a question that came to me that uh,

01:45:26

And I can't remember if it was clint or someone else that asked had contacted me and I uh, They called the ministry.

01:45:31

So I don't know if that was clint They call someone called the ministry actually asking for you anthony and I recommended they go to strivingtrain .org

01:45:38

Fill out the form there to contact us with this question because someone had called saying You had said this on a previous podcast episode and they want to know the history of that and so, uh, would you mind explaining the history of of youth groups dentist

01:45:54

Yeah, so I I'll say this I cannot remember the resources it's been years since i've i've i've seen the resources on this

01:46:04

Let's use this as our starting point. We don't see youth groups in scripture What we see in scripture is we see churches meeting

01:46:13

We see that that elders are to be training the next generation of elders. We see that there are older folks

01:46:20

To be discipling younger folks or newer in the faith folks in the church We also see that that parents are responsible for teaching their children

01:46:29

Like those things are all clear in scripture uh We can make a really good assumption based off of that that that the family

01:46:38

Um attends church together Now having having said all that Historically, that's a lot of what we see

01:46:46

Um, and it looks like drew vanitas has matter theology in an episode on this So they probably have all the resources that I can't think of off the top of my head

01:46:52

But the bottom line is is when we look at youth groups. These were not a thing biblically These were a thing that that uh became really strong during the emergent church movement really started a couple decades before then

01:47:03

And the goal was to was to not for the youth of the church It was for the youth outside the church as a way to get them into the church on a wednesday night or on a sunday

01:47:14

Um to be able to go and and witness to the kids And what it's turned into is is essentially a mockery of church since then

01:47:23

Because now it's turned in general for the most part across the country it is turned into fun and games

01:47:31

It is turned into ways to entertain children rather than actually teaching them god's word

01:47:38

And and the bottom line is is it's been used as as a crutch for parents as parents think well

01:47:44

Hey, they're they're being taught They're going to youth group like they're being taught and and it's absolving parents of their responsibility to do what they're called to do

01:47:51

So those are some issues I have with youth group Um, I will also say this because this is a this is a big issue for me

01:47:59

Is when when we see youth groups and who's leading youth groups in church?

01:48:05

Now, I don't know about you, but when it comes to education You want your best teachers teaching the people who are most vulnerable so to speak

01:48:13

And um, I I look at high school I was a I was a math and chemistry double major in school and in college

01:48:18

I did a lot of tutoring for these things what you find in with kids who struggle in math class Is it rather than high schools putting the best teachers with those with those students in those early math classes to help teach them?

01:48:31

What you find is it's usually the newbie that is stuck teaching those math classes and this is why kids don't get any better Now, let's transfer this to youth group when we've got kids that are that are

01:48:42

The parents have absolved themselves of responsibilities. We have kids that are now coming to church into youth group Who is often leading youth group

01:48:50

Not really well -trained pastors Oftentimes most often now most of most listeners probably go to good churches and you probably have somebody decent teaching the youth

01:49:00

But that is not the case across the country most youth groups and there's lots of books been written on this are are being led by people who

01:49:08

Have no seminary training training nor have have really been raised or discipled into an elder type role um by elders you have people who have really no experience at uh

01:49:20

Teaching scripture therefore and and so kids all you're getting is the fun and games and attractional type stuff so That's about all

01:49:28

I have to say on that Let me do this. I did a quick search on uh, just real quick while you were talking

01:49:34

Uh, when did you church youth groups start? So two articles, uh one

01:49:39

And i'll put these in the show notes, uh for the podcast But one is a history of the youth ministry now, they're saying that where this started was from sunday school uh from sunday school to public school, so they're saying

01:49:51

It mostly began about 150 plus years ago in the mid 1800s with sunday schools in church that began age age group emphasis uh to youth for the training of youth uh for young people in the in the christian faith, so they're saying it started in in as a

01:50:13

Really as as a sunday school, so that wouldn't be the youth group that we think of Yeah, that is so There's an article that i'll also place in there now granted.

01:50:23

This is from the gospel coalition. So we realize it can't be right. Um, No, it just means it's suspect but every so often to get something right yeah broken clock is right twice a day

01:50:34

You know, but but their argument here in in the this The name of this is a brief history of youth ministry uh, they're actually saying that it's from the looks of this that uh

01:50:47

That it started with a youth for christ in the late 50s and 60s Yeah, that's that's to the best of my recollection as well

01:50:55

So and it was taken over by a lot of baptist churches again It was it was originally supposed to be a ministry to kids outside the church

01:51:02

And those families didn't go there and to bring them in and that's what they were saying here was that it was like it was bible clubs

01:51:10

That that and that's what most youth ministries are is trying to bring people into the church um, all right, so let's

01:51:17

Let's go back to this for one. We I just can't help myself. I gotta ask one question on the prophecies and the tongues

01:51:25

Okay, well, let's just say tongues. We only have nine minutes Well, we we have to stop in nine minutes. Okay, everyone.

01:51:30

I have a question. I mean, you know, if this is here That guy okay, he's muted go ahead

01:51:38

All right, so here's my question, okay, so if this is a normative function within the body of christ

01:51:45

Then why is it? That everyone including us three here Don't automatically have the gift of tongues

01:51:53

If it's an automatic for everyone, yeah That's actually the flaw in the whole charismatic movement is that All of chapter 12 is that not everyone will have the gift and yet they argue everyone should have the gift but now

01:52:09

But they can be taught or they remember what I said about or but but remember we're not holy enough, right?

01:52:16

I mean, it's if you you're just not holy enough You you don't have enough faith if you can't do this, you can't heal if you

01:52:22

So, I mean they they always have an out clause just like every other unbeliever does So let me deal with one more comment from michael

01:52:30

Okay You see it starred there. So all right

01:52:36

Now now before I put this up. Let me just say remember what I said at the beginning folks

01:52:42

There's two ways to interpret the scriptures with this You're either going to be your feeling experience or the scripture

01:52:50

What have we been given have have I mentioned throughout any of this two -hour show my experience

01:52:57

Not once i've given you the scripture i've walked through the scripture several times i've given you the immediate context

01:53:03

I gave you the rules I explained the rules. I explained the greek. I explained all this

01:53:10

So michael says we're wrong. Well, let's look at how he argues. Here's his argument

01:53:15

We are christians who know we have the gift Okay, so there's going to be scripture here to prove it right hold on he says

01:53:24

I was not raised in an apostolic church or any christian church. I know the gift

01:53:29

I have Okay, what is that to know? The is he knows he got that gift because there's a scripture.

01:53:35

It says he got that He knows it's experience I read in the scripture that the gifts

01:53:41

The the gift is real and applicable today. What verse is that? He doesn't mention one

01:53:48

He doesn't give us the verse that says he kept telling us. Give me the scripture Give me this show me in the scripture where it says the canon show me the scripture where it says these gifts are for today

01:53:58

You know not for that time Then he says no No one taught this to me.

01:54:04

It is very clear that the gifts Have the gift has not ceased if the gift ceased then here we go again.

01:54:12

Why are so many? Sound bible believers still have it. What is that experience?

01:54:19

That's not scripture See over and over again. He's filled with experience. He goes on to say Would you would uh, you would have no choice but to conclude that your formalization of first corinthians 13

01:54:33

To the perfect being the complete canon of scripture is incur I think he means incorrect.

01:54:38

Yeah now Do you see what what he did there folks? That's all experience He couldn't even give you a single scripture.

01:54:46

Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yes, he did. Hold on. Hold on First corinthians 14 That's not enough 12

01:54:53

Wait a minute 12 and 14 the whole entire chapter Yeah, that's right the whole entire chapter to the corinthian church

01:55:02

And if you read 12 13 and 14 in its context, you know, you realize They were practicing a lot of what you see today being practiced and paul is condemning that behavior.

01:55:12

That's exactly what I was saying earlier Yeah, he's not encouraging it He's trying to give rules to say, you know, because you have so many people faking it

01:55:20

Maybe they're trying to fake it till they make it They're faking it and he's having to give rules.

01:55:26

He's having to give explanation to this and that's what we end up seeing Okay So as you look through this

01:55:33

I have spent time you can look at the article that I have go go to striving for training .org

01:55:40

search on tongues You'll see both articles have tongues ceased which is the article we went through today and then the

01:55:47

The second one is the biblical view of tongues. What do I do in both of those? I give you how to interpret scripture.

01:55:55

I give you the context He is ignoring the immediate context if he wants to say first corinthians 12 and 14 answer that they should be used today

01:56:04

They don't do that. He's saying let me pull this up He's saying so now what you're saying is first corinthians 12 and 13 no longer apply to us

01:56:11

Yes, you know why because first corinthians 13 8 to 13 says so Yeah, you're right.

01:56:18

I mean, that's the whole thing I want to point out something and and uh, justin peters has pointed this out many times

01:56:24

Uh, zach lancaster. He said I joined in late, but michael's But did michael address that why other religions also speak in tongues?

01:56:32

Wouldn't he have to accept their experiences real also and that is a good valid point and that's what I brought up very beginning

01:56:38

As pointed out before The the cults they all speak in tongues and so we have to realize that at all

01:56:46

But there's most of them do But see and they do the same thing. See this is the difference.

01:56:52

They all do the same gibberish that people do today They don't do what was done in the first century in a language that was known

01:57:01

And could be heard and a person who knows that language can interpret it Right and so so the whole thing is

01:57:08

He's trying to argue. Well, we have things, you know that are in that are For that time in corinth.

01:57:14

It's being written to corinth And saying hey, here's some instruction for what to do with tongues

01:57:21

But he's also saying they're gonna they're gonna end. So once they end Do we need those things?

01:57:26

Well, there's still principles we can learn. We we learn that love is the most important thing Are you still healing yourself is what he said

01:57:34

So is it no because that that uh, uh, uh, uh special miracle has gone away just like the yeah

01:57:42

Okay, so so let me ask this let me ask this let's go to the you know, maybe this is michael's favorite verse um

01:57:49

Jeremiah 29 11. Is that for us today? Oh sure. It is. Does god have plans of prosperity for us?

01:57:57

No, that was very clear who was written to because in jeremiah 29 10 it says for those who live through the babylonian captivity

01:58:06

Are there things we can learn from that passage? Yeah that god is faithful to keep his promises, but that specific passage is not for us today

01:58:15

We end up having that and so What you end up seeing? Is What up It's what uh, it says, uh, kathy says this is why cessationist the movie is so needed may the lord great use it greatly kathy, that is exactly what

01:58:33

They're trying to do, you know, but alheim my co -host on the rap report had um, Had interviewed less landsphere for the movie cessationist and and they said what he's doing different than when he did the movie calvinist

01:58:44

Is he realizes calvinist he needs to update? Because some of the things that were said, you know with driscoll and others is no longer valid so they're trying to make the movie cessationist to last for A long time to be sun that can pass the test of time

01:59:01

And yeah, I am you just so you guys know striving for eternity is working with the team there to bring this film about We're we're working trying to work closely with them because we think this is that important of an issue

01:59:15

Why because you see someone like michael I mean where my heart breaks is the fact that michael is so focused on his experience

01:59:24

That he's not reading the scriptures correctly because his experience is reading the scripture

01:59:29

He's he's reading it through a lens of his experience rather than looking at what the scripture actually says

01:59:35

And so he's got to ignore the immediate context to try and find something that fits in We don't read scripture to try to fit it in I want to I want to pull out a question from cole

01:59:48

So while you're pulling it up, can I read a scripture real quick? Yeah x x 5 starting in verse 3

01:59:53

But peter said ananias why has satan filled your heart to lie to the holy spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land

02:00:00

While it remained unsold did it not remain your own and after it was sold was it not under your control?

02:00:06

Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to god And so that is that is

02:00:13

Before we before we continue with you michael on on the understanding of tongues you know,

02:00:20

I think that chris huff said it best earlier is we're we're we're talking with an unbeliever and and The main thing that you've got to do is is repent and put your trust in in christ

02:00:31

Understand who god actually is and this is one of the best verses or passages You can read here in the beginning of acts 5 to understand the holy spirit is god

02:00:41

Yeah, yeah 100 and and with that You know cole you you asked the question here and in the background.

02:00:49

I want to put it up here because this is Yeah, this is so important and he said with the wheat and tares in mind

02:00:56

Are there gods elect among the congregations of charismatic? Pentecostals nar etc. And he says hint

02:01:02

I was what once was um, brother That is the the the question

02:01:09

You know, I mean i'm going to tell you that that I I had to put poses up here because that's what we're doing

02:01:15

That's what we're having this entire conversation Is is all that we do about this is this i'm going to ask you just directly

02:01:21

Do you believe that christ is your savior and lord and has he drawn you to repentance? Do you have you been brought to that point where?

02:01:28

You've realized that that you need christ to be your savior that you deserve the wrath of god Yeah, yeah, okay.

02:01:35

So the answer to your question is yes, sir God does have those that are in the charismatic the nar the roman catholic and everything else

02:01:45

But they come out when they get truth When they hear the truth and they feel the truth that's just pouring through their bones in the word of god

02:01:55

They hear that and they come out. They they don't want to be in error, you know, and for us

02:02:02

That's why andrew and anthony and myself we say look If you show us where we're wrong and we have these discussions and stuff like that and sometimes they get heated

02:02:10

But it's it's out of love. It's not out of hate, but it's like We want to know the truth and true biblical christians.

02:02:16

We want to know the truth. We want to have That exposition of truth poured out on us

02:02:22

So that I mean i'll just tell you There's probably 30 people that I don't know that i've never seen the names of here on the side chat

02:02:30

And I know they're hearing Jody Abernathy I've seen her, you know posting stuff here.

02:02:36

I've never met her before and i've never had a conversation with her And she's in here now and we know that we keep getting new people in And they're hearing the truth and they come out of error

02:02:47

Uh, I I have many people that i've talked to in the past few weeks that have said we listen to you guys all the time

02:02:57

And we just praise god for your ministry and because we're hearing the truth and not just us So you're to answer your question?

02:03:04

Yes, there are those that hear the truth and we're praying for michael salmon I pray that he hears the truth and he will come to repentance as you know, anthony just read that Because I know anthony's heart.

02:03:15

So john 10. Let I mean let's let's give you the verses to back up what you just said, uh, justin um, john 10 verse, uh, 16 wants to get into anthony time and I have other sheep

02:03:27

I mean it just so happens. We're going in anthony time

02:03:33

John 10 verse 16 anthony time is whenever we go over two hours because anthony likes the

02:03:39

To go longer and look at look at the praises. We're getting marcy's saying we're in anthony time

02:03:45

Kt is saying anthony time exclamation point I just want to I just want to um acknowledge pastor justin for bringing us into anthony time

02:03:53

So I did I did thank you for that. No, i'm only an hour and a half in so i'm just gonna tell you That's right.

02:03:59

I'm only about an hour and 40 in so we got some time Um, so john 10 verse 16 and I have other sheep that are not of this fold

02:04:06

I must bring them also and they will listen to my voice So there will be one flock one shepherd

02:04:12

And then we can jump down to verse 27 Of course the whole context of john 10 is about this. Um, and and lots of other good things

02:04:19

My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me So, yes, there are people who are sheep and don't know it as uh, justin peters often talks about that are in um

02:04:30

Charismatic movements and uh, yes, even even the roman catholic church um

02:04:36

Church, jehovah witnesses witnesses, right? I'm out of it. Yeah, and people will come out right? They'll hear they hear their hear his voice at god's appointed time and and they will come out

02:04:45

So so let me let me uh, i'm gonna end with one more comment here from michael and then i'll make it an announcement

02:04:52

So michael is saying this. Okay Let me say this to all who who are hearing me

02:04:59

Yeah, if you start saying that certain scripture is no longer applicable today for you you are in danger

02:05:06

This is where false teachers teachings and heresies come from people who believe in sexual immorality

02:05:12

And disorder in the church claim the same things they rip verses out of context and say they're no longer applied today

02:05:19

Do not do that Everything that christ has taught Us and the apostles wrote by the holy scripture of the holy spirit, which yahweh is truth and applicable

02:05:31

Okay, he stopped there probably applicable. Um, I just got one question for michael Does he keep kosher

02:05:40

Kosher Does does he keep the passover which it says in scripture to keep the passover forever?

02:05:48

Do you do that or was that just the jewish people? Because if you're saying that that doesn't apply to you all of those, you know 316 laws that are in the old testament

02:06:00

You're doing the very same thing. In other words You're actually whether you realize you're not actually interpreting it in its context certain things are for certain people

02:06:09

Does your wife cover her hair? Or cover her head Do we declare daily fast and do we uh throw out ash and sackcloth on ourselves?

02:06:20

Yeah Yeah, there's a lot of things that don't apply anymore. They apply to a specific group of people

02:06:25

How do we know that because we read the context? And just as a point of clarification,

02:06:31

I think you accidentally said 316 and you meant 613. Oh, okay. Yep. That's okay.

02:06:36

Yeah. Yeah So unlike no, we we okay I want to because we're at anthony time so you're yeah

02:06:42

You checked out six minutes ago. So so here we go. Look at this. We will bring him in here and I well,

02:06:49

I gotta tell you it's also good chickens Hold on there. Where's let me get his name to show up.

02:06:54

How's it? How do we get his name to show up? It's shut off. Hold on. I'll get it. Hang on a second. You'll get it. Okay his he's coming in as as tongues are languages.

02:07:03

John There you go All right, exactly so So I I think now would be a good time

02:07:15

Before we all go that I make a little announcement Grandpa we'll see

02:07:22

Yeah, so so I I you know for those who don't listen to rap report or follow me on on facebook or twitter or wherever else

02:07:30

I put might have posted it I am officially a young man. I mean, uh an old man

02:07:37

My daughter made me a grandfather now granted my son -in -law had something to do with it But yep so I need to get myself a my pillow to put my head down because I need more sleep now as a

02:07:49

And now the baby's gonna need a my pillow pillow. Yeah, I got one for the baby already by the way I got a baby my pillow kt is saying, uh, andrew wasn't saying the old testament doesn't matter

02:08:00

He is saying that you have to rightly understand it And that's the whole point so Context matters grandpa grandpa

02:08:13

Folks here's the thing you have to uh, actually I won't so next week uh

02:08:19

I don't I think we're going to go back to we're going to have some folks coming in and talking about sbc But here's the thing until next week folks

02:08:28

I need help. I need I need some help here. I don't know what I should be having my kids for me

02:08:37

Melissa gets this is great. She's got that's the greatest one ever Yeah, jody's jody's asking boy or girl we don't know yet, uh, we gotta wait 10 more weeks to find that out

02:08:49

So and by the way, some people are saying but then how are you a grandfather? because conception

02:08:55

Yeah, the moment the conception i'm already grandpa so I was able to tell my daughter She you know

02:09:01

I said hey happy mother's day And and she was like and then she realized it was like, oh, yeah, this is the first mother's day for me

02:09:10

So so I need help I need to know You know i'm taking kind of a poll. What what should

02:09:16

I have the kids call me? You know, should I be grandpa? I called my grandfather Papa my father was pappy.

02:09:24

So next week This is a chore you guys I want I want the audience here to think about it and and let me know

02:09:31

Okay, kind of a kind of a poll. We'll just see, you know, I I wanted I I think I told my daughter

02:09:36

I think a good one would be You know high exalted ruler Yeah, you know or high exalted grandfather

02:09:43

And you know, oh, there's already people throwing it in here. Yeah, so so The funny thing of that was my daughter was like, yeah, and they'll just call you

02:09:52

They'll make something up there you go, uh cole says, uh, rap paul Rap paul, that's good.

02:09:58

I like that one. Oh, yeah. Drew says rap pops Jody says

02:10:07

I like papa papa and that kind of goes rap Pops report

02:10:14

New grandpa podcast Yeah Well, I guess what I found out just before we know we're about to hang up Uh before too long, but I found out that justin peters is going to be in severeville, tennessee

02:10:26

Uh starting sunday, uh through wednesday at a conference And uh, he's he's doing the whole conference himself

02:10:34

And uh, he told me yesterday I believe it was that he's going to be in it. And so i'm going I'm going to go immediately after that.

02:10:42

He's going to finland So so let me give you some updates of where we're going to be traveling and speaking, uh

02:10:48

Anthony and I will be at a play at repentant witness. This is going to be in ocean city, maryland And they do have five slots that did open.

02:10:56

So this is an evangelism camp. This is where guys and girls open I don't know. I don't know if it's guys and girls.

02:11:02

So Uh, go to repent witness. I think it's repent witness .com or dot org Uh, they'll take you to a christian collegian

02:11:09

Network That's who runs it and this is a a several day like a four -day intense evangelism training

02:11:17

Anthony i'll be doing the training but you're going out on the streets and you're learning you're you're going to be practicing uh, both anthony and i'll be

02:11:24

Going to ambassador's academy that's put on by living waters and we we get the privilege of helping them out

02:11:29

We'll be leading some teams in evangelism. That's going to be in august. So we'll be in in california Be at the santa monica pierre evangelizing on uh,

02:11:38

I guess that's going to be Uh, august saturday. Yes Whatever that is the last saturday of the month um

02:11:47

Looks like i'm going to be going to the g3 regional conference in washington dc at the museum of the bible

02:11:52

I won't be teaching but I will be there or I do plan to be there Uh looking forward we have november

02:11:58

Uh, november 3rd to the 7th is the reformed sola dea Conference which is in augusta, georgia.

02:12:05

I will be one of the speakers along with virgil walker And uh scott and I can I don't know how to properly pronounce his name scott.

02:12:12

I know and then i'll I don't know. He's i'll probably get yelled at and he'll correct me at some point And then uh, joel beakey is is going to be speaking there as well.

02:12:21

So those are some upcoming events Um anthony, are there any that you're speaking at that? I don't know about Um Five -day course that mike riddle and I do at the beginning of august is coming up in August 1st to the 6th in north carolina where we're teaching

02:12:36

People who have a desire to teach in churches all about apologetics and and actual communication teaching skills

02:12:42

Where do they go to get that? So that's at creation training .org. We still have a couple spots available as well

02:12:48

Um, it's an intense training and uh, you'll be there for five straight days The best part is is, you know, you get five days of of hotel or five nights of hotel paid for Um all your meals included all your training included normally costs.

02:13:02

It costs about 1500 bucks per person We have donors that help to to offset some of those costs.

02:13:08

So it's only 450 To uh to sign up and and be there with all of that included so you'll get uh,

02:13:16

Tons of training. We have 22 one -hour sessions during those five days You'll also get an opportunity to stand up and speak for three to five minutes if you wish to Um to a small group where we coach you through through uh teaching and speaking skills

02:13:29

So it's a it's a really cool course to to go through and we probably won't do it again for a few years because the high cost

02:13:35

And uh, you didn't put that into the our trip They're trippet. So I I didn't see that in there.

02:13:41

You got probably not because i've been terrible with trippet lately. Yeah So, all right folks we

02:13:46

I know we went into a little bit of anthony time we're gonna say son justin Yeah, i'm just gonna let you guys know i've got two weeks

02:13:52

Of being here on the show, uh the end of the month i'm going to be traveling with my family uh, we're doing a uh, uh northeast coast trip, uh traveling around probably going to come up and see andrew

02:14:03

Um gonna go up and see yeah, we're coming to see you. We already talked about going. Yeah, uh, the 20

02:14:09

What is it 24 through the? Oh, yeah That's not gonna work. I have a funeral plan that day.

02:14:15

Oh, well, I know that's fine. We can eat sushi at the funeral So so we're gonna be uh, two more weeks and then i'm going on a one week vacation

02:14:23

With my family and then I start Uh seminary classes back up and that will keep me busy for a good while, um

02:14:34

I'll i'll try to be in and out when I can but just so everybody knows I will be uh off air, uh for quite a while it'd be

02:14:43

Uh, at least november and so whenever whenever they're not having classes on thursday nights, I will be uh, i'll try to jump in when

02:14:51

I can but Other than that, I love you guys. I've really uh, just for now i'm not gone but uh,

02:14:58

I absolutely love this ministry, uh, I Try not to miss it and and now that i'm not gonna be able to get it for a little while It's uh, it's gonna break my heart so Well, we'll miss you so with that folks