WORSHIP WARS - Part 2 - Season 2 Episode 4

use uh nicknames you had to use your real name because they were putting very inappropriate names yeah including gang related wait what is this again okay okay gotcha um so i said real names only well some of the kids were just being fun with it right um but like you know one kid always called himself batman one kid you know whatever right but because some of the dweebs ruined it for everyone else of course we uh couldn't do anything so i said your real names only and he was like coach shibley i've been batman all year i'm like i know man but can't do it he goes fine and i go through i read all my names make sure they're real and all of a sudden bruce wayne is playing and he goes coach shibley said i use my real name and i let him keep it uh dude you know that was good enough yeah that was good man that was definitely good enough they have a generator like a nickname generator now because apparently enough people ran into that so they're they're the dumbest things like one of them was like uh honey badger 55 it's like honey badger 50 i literally popped up like who's honey badger 55 and this kid looks at me he goes i guess it's me it's me it was funny it's not gonna rain on you i promise what is there a wasp or something there's a drop of water you sure it wasn't my spittle it might have been in my hospital you know what it was like right here for that to happen yeah that's what i was saying it was like okay that that threw my whole game off welcome back everybody welcome back to the point taken podcast everybody ladies and gentlemen this is the podcast where we make and take spiritual and biblical questions and my name is hunter the host of this podcast uh to my left me first today i'm not introducing him today to my left pastor josiah ship what's up everybody pastor josiah are you happy to be i am very happy to be here hi wolf this is the famous season one wolf with a mask over its mouth beta wolf yes if you missed that go back to it was it our first episode we ever did yep maybe second yeah was it the best shape episode it's just a waste of time wolf with a mask yeah it really is and then uh he's also here as well um and we're finnegan right hello everybody my name is finnegan i have my head now oh hold on you can't do that yeah you're not you're not wearing pod merch you're not wearing pod merch you have a head and you mentioned it and i'm also wearing pants so yeah it won't work no head no pants that's how he rolls no service can you tell people who i am mr host i need people to know exactly who i is all right to quote the modern vernacular of the day brother andrew i am happy to be here as well all right all right okay we're getting somewhere all right i'm in a better mood now he didn't do okay guys we're gonna be completing oh we're gonna be continuing uh last week's episode on worship and we're gonna be finishing out our little game here i love games and we're gonna open up because this was all inspired by a listener question that we didn't even get to last week uh just because i wanted to kind of warm it up but we you know we we were killing it all right so here's our listener question this is kind of a long question comma that's that's the opening i'm struggling with this culture of music where it feels like i am seeing more of performance over worship primarily with the release of the song might get loud by elevation i heard people say that is that it is similar to david's outpouring of praise but when i see lyrics that say why can't i praise him as loud as i want i get what they are trying to say but it sits weird in my spirit feels very me centered letting me decide as to how i worship god i actually played the song in three services one sunday uh not at my home church and my soul felt weird everyone was jumping and dancing and i'm just over here behind the piano like we're not listening to the same song well there you go well there you go and so if you haven't heard it might get loud i have not have i it's loud can you just read it in a regular voice so we can absolutely uh and take out the rhyme part okay i was gonna do it in a british accent rhyming but i'll do it in a regular voice taking out the rhyme part okay excuse me for a minute but i've got a song to sing might not be on key but it's from my heart no one else can tell it what the lord has done for me this might take all day so i better start right now there is no rhyming in that yet so is this a rap section or is this no it's not uh and and here's the course and it might get loud it might get loud because heaven's coming down down down and it might get loud it might get loud heaven's coming down down down and it might get loud oh who wrote this elevation okay i can i can hear their their theology in this and we're still going i don't have a halo no i'm not a perfect man i'm just glad to be a child of god because when i think of where i could have been should have been would have been if he hadn't stepped in i've got a praise on the inside that can't be denied and i gotta get it out right now when the saints when the saints start praising it might get loud when the chains start breaking heaven's coming down down down and it might get loud it might get loud heaven's coming down down down it might get loud that's literally the whole song that's well i i don't know if there's more to it i'd printed this page may i you may i'm doing what i did last time go ahead and break that thing down okay but be warned it might get loud apparently all right excuse me for a minute but i've got a song to sing okay might not be on key but it's for my from my heart okay so in psalms it says that we are supposed to uh be skillful in in our play play the lute skillfully and i think that applies to any and all musicians um so a musician saying that he's not may not be on key because the song from his heart is a little concerning um no one else can tell it what the lord has done for me this might take all day so i better start right now go ahead yeah if if someone came up to me and said hey i don't want to sing loudly i would say go for it but the whole song is about that so what are we singing loudly the song is about singing loudly i guess the part that first stands i don't quite understand or maybe i do understand so yeah and like i said you know i i sing very loud on sunday mornings uh understand so i just realized what he said i was wondering like man you kept going yeah he's like i'm ignoring that completely i sing loud all the time the problem is when it says it's almost like he's trying to say he's out of control like he says it's from my heart so it might not be off key that makes it sound like you can't purposely write something and it not be from your heart in other words it makes it sound like it has to be out of control which is not true yeah and then in addition it's like if you're gonna if you're if you're gonna do an outpouring of praise i have no problem with that absolutely but you i don't think the holy spirit's going to jump down literally down your throat and make you do this i don't think anybody's going to do that wow yeah that was a serious loud that was more tasmanian then i got loud that did get loud and here's here's the bridge oh there's a bridge yeah you know there's a bridge this is when the states start praising right yeah uh no well no that's that's i don't even know this is what i would have called the bridge um and it's separated by one two three go hey hey hey and it says my favorite oh love and then it says why can't i pray them as loud as i want why can't i praise them as loud as i want heaven's coming down down down why can't i praise them as loud as i want and that goes on for a long time i don't understand who's stopping this person from singing loudly or praying loudly yeah i don't know but uh okay it's written by steven furtick christopher joel brown and brandon lake okay i'm surprised by the brandon lake one um the first one i don't know the other ones i love brandon lake i i guess again i have absolutely zero problem with people singing or praying loudly i do it all the time yeah but why are we making a song about doing it loudly and then never talking about whatever we wanted to sing thank you and that's my point like that's what are we gonna sing loudly all we did was sing about singing loudly this and this what do you want to sing loudly this poor gentleman had three times three services where he had to play this music and everybody's going whoa we never started singing any songs except that and there's no gospel there's no yes there is yes don't do this putting that hector hat on don't do this okay is it salt but fellas no no it's hector fellas hector's here guys fellas so fellas it does say that i'm just glad to be a child of god with no proof or action all right hector's gone yeah well i mean i mean okay it says uh and no one else can tell it what the lord has done for me that this might take all day so i better start right now but you know how it took all day but he never started how well it can't it can't take all day he's saying it three times in one day well he said this might take all day so i better start right now these are the lyrics but you never started saying anything about god all you said was it might get loud when the saints when heaven's coming down and the states what does he mean when he says when heaven comes down you know i because because i'm wondering if it's scriptural but not in that context i'm wondering i don't think he's talking about yeah i don't think he's talking about second coming i'm thinking he's talking about oh he's singing things are getting crazy and we're two or three or more gathered boom jesus is among them oh he brought heaven with him oh everything's going crazy i think that's what he's saying there's two well there's two things that make which is a little way to make me laugh because i have a feeling that three people that wrote this probably never heard of the songs but heaven came down and glory filled my soul by him and then the saints go marching it like that's what i immediately think when i hear that yeah so it's like did he just hear those two things in his head and he's like oh oh i love these are christian phrases yeah like this is this this is nonsense this is nonsensical i've listened to that on uh on the radio on my like way to work and all this i turn it i i either turn it or turn off the radio because my thing is like oh turn like turn it to another station yeah oh well i'll go to like air one or i'll just you know maybe i'll listen to country music i don't know but i'm not listening to that because it's like what's what's the point because all you're talking about and here's let's go back to the question so the psalm uh the psalter makes several references to praise him loudly sing out proclaim his name yeah but we're singing something loud we're proclaiming something loud the message of the gospel we're proclaiming christ loud we never proclaimed anything we just said we were going to sing loud and we did right and he said why can't i praise him as loud as you want well first of all why can't you praise him because you haven't right yeah yeah but like why what are you trying to justify because it sounds like to me you're trying to convince me that what you're doing is cool and fun and okay and if and nobody ever said like anything about it like is somebody at his church saying oh or something like you that's not the case yeah at his church especially so i'm just like i'm like i don't know maybe he experienced some hate but like to go back to where the question was he says i feel like i'm seeing more of a performance over worship and i would have to say this song is performance and see i can't speak to the performance aspect of it because i don't know that i don't know any of the word like i don't know how the rhythms are i don't know what instrument i can get i can guess it might get loud oh it's a rock song no it's not really rock that's just how i that's how i prefer to hear it is the person who wrote that in rock song is the person who wrote that in someone who's played this song and feels troubled that they played this song oh yeah somebody who is a musician and has to lead worship and do something then i would say this to directly answer that question that person saying should i play this if it feels like a performance and not worship no agreed i'd go one step further um than to say if if that's causing you to to stumble then don't ever do it like right that's what i'm saying yeah but i would say if he's the one who's picking the music like was he no he didn't get to pick music at that point he was just playing the piano right i would just refuse to play it really i'm not playing this one sorry yeah and and not rudely or spitefully just no no yeah well yeah i mean i have problems with the song and he and he you know grew those problems after playing it because he was just sitting there like this just doesn't seem like oh i get it this person just reads music and then it was placed in front of no they they knew the song but they didn't think it just wasn't until you don't think it was in his head yeah and so then he's watching it all go down and he's saying no when you have a net when you have the chance to actually be retrospective about it and start to think like a lot of i know a lot of people um at least i've seen a lot of people here at whitton they may not sing the song through the first go because they're reading the words trying to understand what they're saying that's important you you should never do a song unless you know what the words are and understand the concept behind it i am so with that yeah it's so true that's why i that's why i make sure i read every lyric before we ever sing it i mean and this he he goes to a bunch of like i i know the person who asked this question i think i do too and no you do and you know he goes to a bunch of different churches all the time plays music for him because he has this huge circle and they call him to do music and stuff so he's just seeing a whole bunch of this stuff and one of the things i loved what he told me one time he was uh getting ready for a service dude and he's sitting there praying maybe he wasn't praying i don't remember but all i remember is he was getting ready for the service and he got two other band mates or whatever talking about are you gonna wear the hat today like like when you go up there you're gonna wear a hat like because they had these sun hats and or whatever uh style fashion he's like are you gonna wear that hat up there today it's like oh man yeah because they're talking about the riffs or whatever the cool music stuff that they did or that they will do and what they're wearing and he's just like is our focus in the right place boys right he's like what what are we what's happening right now and so i really liked what because when we talk about it nowadays he's just like well i wonder if they're worshiping or if they're wearing the hat you know uh and it just became that that's his analogy yeah and he just became that little term and and i think that's what he was struggling with is like dude these people are wearing the hat these people are just like it's all about the performance it's all about what it looks and how it feels or whatever but that song is the epitome of wearing the hat it's like dude it might get loud it might get loud and it has just enough of context in there to make you think like okay i get what he's trying to do like maybe this is cool and then the music will take you the rest of the way but it's just not worship i mean like what is great yeah right it's i can see how it can be gratefulness from like the first verse where it says yeah because god did a lot for me i'm going to sing and praise him and then that was it and then the rest of it is just like the way he's going to praise him but he never starts and he never does it so it's just like it's all about the music it's all about the music that song and so i was just like no is it a worship okay i'm gonna answer this is it a worship song no is it a song i listen to in the car no is it a song that i would play on a sunday morning absolutely not no no no i agree with i agree with your that one was easy yeah all right what's next this one is a song called good grace okay and i want you to try and find oh i know this one you know the song i think i do okay so let's let's listen swing wide all you heavens let the praise go up as the walls come down all creation everything with breath repeat the sound all his children clean hands pure hearts good grace good god oh his name is jesus i know this one yeah i i thought yeah is that the only lyrics you're those are the lyrics because that is what was brought to me as controversial wait a minute can i say it sure i i have to read it to really get it in my head come on no just grab the paper okay there there is there is brother andrew if i may there is one line in that song i wish it could change but it's nothing that you just read everything you just read really spot on okay what was the other line was that a listener question by the way uh that was brought to me by not me okay whoever brought that unless one of y 'all want to disagree i have no problem with any of those lyrics okay there's one line i wish i could change um but it is one of those again it's not enough to make me not listen to the song i listen that song all the time yeah um i'm not gonna sing it so let me think um do you need the paper don't let your heart be troubled hold on i can't think of anything but the i can't think of anything with the chorus is that where this is or that's uh can i see that yeah it's either the course or the pre -chorus oh lift your head up i don't fear no evil fix your eyes on this one truth god is madly in love with you now madly is not my favorite word to use with god's love for us ah again it's not enough to make me turn the song off because i know what they're trying to say that just makes it sound again like he's head over heels out of control you know he's madly in love with you maybe overwhelmingly i'm good with that yeah yeah something like that yeah but apart from that no i don't have problems yeah i i have to agree i'm not nothing about what that well here's here's the part that was brought to me because i i've it was uh all his children clean hands pure hearts good grace good god yeah that's what was brought to me as controversial no that's what we're supposed to lift up to him clean hands and pure it's not saying we are all his children that would be that would be a minute that would be something um i mean the first all creation everything with in fact it's saying the opposite all creation do this all his children do this yeah we should i mean by by the standards of sanctification pure hands pure clean hearts pure hearts good grace good god his name is jesus yeah i don't have any problem also it calls jesus god so answer three questions uh uh i'm not gonna say it's a worship song because i don't know the whole song oh you never heard this i've never heard this song before i'm not gonna say it's worship because i don't know uh based off those lyrics if the rest of the song is like that i would say it would be fine for a sunday morning however i said it with the caveat of not knowing any of the actual music behind it so yes and then personally probably yeah i could i could see myself singing that those words yeah all three yeses nice that one passes with flying colors yeah well i mean when you're basically quoting psalm was it psalm 100 basically yeah you can't go wrong with that and yeah you know i just don't think the psalms are very good uh david are they worship just kidding let's check out that uh that psalter there uh would you sing this in church would you let your kids would you see your song privately i know which one i wouldn't let him sing in the car the songs of solomon that's that's probably there was david songs and then it was solomon songs who's the who's the group who's not allowed to read song of solomon so they're married what yeah is that like a church thing i don't know if it's a i can't remember is it i i kind of felt like it was a historical thing like back in the day there's a certain group and you know it's easy to make fun of that but at the same time when i read the bible to ava that's not gonna be the right i'm not i'm not gonna pick that one yeah yeah let's memorize the first verse all right oh the ivory tower the final one is the song called i'm gonna see a victory i'm gonna see a victory i already have developed this opinion long ago you sure have and that's why it's gonna be yours have i talked to you about this before you sure have yeah you've done it uh in service i don't remember this i've done this i did this bridge i did this from the pulpit okay and uh all right sunday night yeah first off let me just start i have no problem with the title i'm going to see a victory you're allowed to assume victory because jesus on your side i don't have a problem with that someone asked me about that before all right so we start off by quoting scripture uh the weapon may be formed but it won't prosper david said that right no weapon formed yet when the darkness falls it won't prevail because the god i serve knows only how to triumph i love that line my god will never fail does it rhyme i'm sorry i okay uh power and mighty actually it does rhyme this is my favorite line of the song and i i don't even know that the people who made the song believe this line but i do every war he wages he will win i mean that's yeah he's never lost uh i know how the story ends blah blah okay i'm gonna see a victory i'm gonna see victory for the battle belongs to you that's quoted several times in scripture uh deborah said that to uh judah uh barack wasn't it yeah um yeah um anyway the the bridge is what i take issue with it's another one of those where i don't turn the song off i just change the lyrics when i sing this song to ava i change the lyrics so here here's as it's written you take what the enemy meant for evil and you turn it for good you turn it for good you take what the enemy meant for evil and you turn it for good now my if i go on too long someone shut me up genesis 50 20 you what uh joseph speaking to his brothers what you the enemy meant for evil god meant for good or intended let's say okay here it says you take what the enemy meant for evil and you turn it for good and the point i was making in my sermon a couple weeks ago was that's not true he's even better than that yeah yeah he god has never reacted a single time he doesn't if i'm at the cusp of blasphemy he doesn't know how to react he doesn't know how to react he would understand the concept sure he created the concept but he doesn't know how to okay yeah um you take what the enemy meant for evil and you meant it for good it's even more purposeful than that my issue with the song is that line he doesn't take what the enemy means for evil and then okay let's see if we can conjure up the way to make this still work out because i'm on a timeline and the seasons are changing and he's got to come back and this time and if he attacks that nation and you carry the two yeah oh i didn't see vlad doing that then andrew will never be born if i do that so i gotta okay peter's gonna deny me he's getting really really really mad so yeah cut off someone's ear i take i take figure out a pretty large issue with that he does not take what the enemy meant to evil and turns it for good he intended it meant it for good so uh all i do is just when i sing it i just change that word so basically you just sing the scripture instead of yeah you take what the enemy meant for evil and intend it for good yeah yeah i i can't sing that good but that's what i do i've got no quorum with that one all right uh andrew you have two special ones that are just for you okay all right if if i may you you might let's say that you said hey just i was gonna play this song all i would do is say would it be possible for you to change that one word and if it is it is if it isn't is it and if it wasn't i would probably just all right hey guys this song is based on this scripture and it actually said you know give them a little rundown give them the rundown okay i'm gonna start with the with this one draw me close to you never let me go i lay it all down again to hear you oh it's been a minute since i've heard this uh to hear you say that i'm your friend you are my desire no one else will do because nothing else could take your place to feel the warmth of your embrace help me find the way bring me back to you you're all i want you're all i've ever needed you're all i want started early no you are near we're finna break out of the song anyway i love this one so let's just go ahead and let's say i take all the u's and take the capital would you hmm even the camera guys laughing this is good man we're we're adding to the salt we are trying we're trying to build it lot's wife is frozen in this room i'm about to shake the snot out of this salt what was lot's wife's name she's not salt she's unnamed she's unnamed you know she was real salty about it you got it you know why she's unnamed because she was that important uh all she did was turn around the way to make the name the word pillar feminine pillow pillow she's a pillow of salt no whatever that doesn't make any sense we'll give her a name all right macy i think i think the point's pretty clear uh the way i read it uh i could be talking about anybody or anything i could be talking about a dog draw me close to you puppy dog come here come here come here girl uh based on this spot yeah uh here let me rephrase this draw me close to you baby never let me go baby i lay it all down again to hear you say that i'm your friend baby your boyfriend you are my desire baby i thought elvis died this is incredible no one else will do baby because nothing else uh could take your place sweetheart to feel the warmth of your embrace uh help me find the way bring me back to you now okay do i need to say more okay yeah not a worse wait hold on hold on hold on hold on the chorus you're all you're all you're all i want but you never needed you're all i ever needed you're all i want help me know you're near huh text me let me know you're here oh wait my phone just made on live 360 when was that song made uh probably back in 1719 probably 1998 1998 now it's older than that what because i was maybe older i don't know you're the hymn historian hymn historian is that not a hymn did you not a hymn no chance that's not a not a hymn hold on i'm googling right now draw me close oh my gosh is that michael duck no that's just going to be a cover hold on draw me close to you um what am i looking for original just original artist okay um and then release date published written by kelly carpenter a vineyard worship pastor in january 1994 i was okay i was four years off okay that's four years off uh so that's 28 years wait pastor or worship pastor that's a new term i've heard i don't understand myself but dude he is focused in on whatever this is okay draw me close was written by kelly carpenter a vineyard worship pastor here's a story this is going to be a quote from her i had been leading worship and pastoring the worship ministry at our church for about two years during this time i put myself under a lot of pressure i was new to both leading and pastoring although i had been a lot of confidence i had had a lot of confidence musically i felt pretty green and worship leading and totally overwhelmed with people okay so whatever thank you for my uh nerds oh you're welcome you big nerd um uh i feel like that is an episode in itself right there uh but yeah so i can tell so just from that statement that she felt green in the she was confident musically the music is fine like the music itself is fine but the i can tell her um inexperience in writing hymns or write not even hymns writing songs because those words are uh weak sauce because your bars are trash you have no fire what is better than hunter's out of breath laugh that's my favorite man yep man i'm just i'm just trying to figure out more about this all right while you do the next one all right the other one is oceans this was a big one when i first took over as a music person here um okay so you call me out upon the waters the great unknown where feet may fail and there i find you in the mystery and oceans deep my faith will stand and i will call upon your name and i will keep my eyes above the waves when oceans rise my soul will rest in your embrace for i am yours and you are mine uh yeah your grace abounds the deepest waters your sovereign hand will be my guide wherever feet may fail fear surrounds me you've never failed and you won't start now okay read the bridge will you uh that's the spirit lead me spirit lead me where my trust is without borders let me walk upon the waters wherever you will call me take me deeper than my feet could ever wonder and my faith will be made stronger in the presence of my savior okay i remember this song because i liked the bridge the other parts of like okay but that's i remember that i think it's a call out about peter that is my assumption that this is loosely based on peter's uh account um i think the it's not so much controversial as much as just it's empty until you get to the bridge i agree yeah until you get to the bridge yeah and it's very me centric you call me out upon the waters the great unknown where feet may fill there i there and there i find you in the mystery and notions deep my faith will stand and i will call your name keep my eyes above the way it's very me centered and i regardless it does not who is the you who is the i i understand the implication with sovereign hand i get that would be your grace i get that but it's not explicit enough spirit like the well even the bridge spirit lead me what spirit the spirit of the age the spirit of the earth mother earth like there's no yes it can be implied that it would be the holy spirit but at the same time nowadays everybody's into spiritualism like being spiritual so spirit lead me what spirit are you talking about the holy spirit even like for i for i am yours and you are mine spirit lead me where am i trusted but holy spirit lead me like even if it's a little too wordy just throwing that in there would change it be like okay christian judeo trinity god we could do that um kelly carpenter is a man i'm sorry what did you say kelly carpenter that whole time you were i forgot you were doing that yeah i sure well i haven't heard a word you said all right i was i was okay thank you okay well yeah y 'all continue actually almost done y 'all continued while i was i apologize i'm misgendered i am i certainly did because there's a picture of two women that's what i'm saying like the picture was two women the name was kelly carpenter and it was a worship pastor so i thought well a lesbian worship pastor you know and so i was like no chance and so i don't know what that picture was about but i figured it out get the camera on me real quick it was fine let me go ahead i'm gonna go ahead apologize what's the person's name kelly carpenter kelly carpenter if you ever watch this i am sorry that i misgendered you if kelly carpenter watched this what a train wreck what an emotional roller coaster that man would have to go through he's probably watching first of all this dude definitely thinks that i'm a lesbian female worship pastor he's probably a valid really honorable godly man yeah yeah he was just new to worship and that's why there was you know draw me close to you it doesn't excuse had few mentions of jesus's name however i will i refuse to not like that song dude we're like two songs later yeah yeah i know i i'm and i'm that's all i'm gonna say we're gonna continue with oceans see if you actually stand by that that's all you're gonna say okay yeah okay that's all i'm gonna say for right now so we have we have back before that uh pastor si and i were talking so i'm curious what is your base feeling base what's your base feeling on our base get it because sorry the base feeling on yeah tell me tell me what your opinion on oceans is base we get it we get it

Bruce my feelings um my initial thoughts and i can give you my honest word that i have not heard a word that either of you said after i was looking that up um i know i like the song why well shoot it's a long song i don't have the lyrics in front of me like you do like you do okay let me see i don't know i have never had an issue when worshiping to oceans um you worship oceans all right now i'd say that's the way you phrased it okay you call me out upon the waters peter great no no where my feet may fail and there i find you in the mystery notions deep my faithful stand i'll call upon your name yeah because it's about faith whose faith in what in god what god the god who calls us out upon the waters who's that jesus are you sure about that yes name another god that calls us out upon the waters the quote is to peter saying it's like a come out onto the waters and the entire thing is like it's the great unknown where your feet may fail but you have to have faith and i'll say this when you said whose faith our faith because when and we had it preached about this morning when the woman who was suffering from bleeding for years reached out and touched the hem of jesus's robe and he felt his power go out i love that he says first of all who touched me because i just felt something go down and he knew the answer and then when she said that was me and he said your faith has healed you okay i'm gonna back up a little bit back it up i'm backing it up a little bit what god are we talking about the one who calls us out upon the someone who's never heard the story someone who does not know anything about peter getting out of a boat looking at jesus and walking on the water do we demand our worship songs to evangelize they should i disagree i think i think it's awesome when they do i think every christian every song we sing in a worship service should somehow point back to the gospel oh for sure it should somehow point back to god does i don't think necessarily the gospel then why sing it because it's a praise to god because like the gospel not praising god it is i'm just saying it's not a hundred percent necessary in every song i'm thinking it's awesome when it does but i think i just don't think that when we say this is not an evangelizing song where if i am not a born again believer i don't know the reference i don't think that that is like sinful or wrong i think like okay that's for that's okay so you have solid food and you have milk i feel like this is more a bit closer to solid food for the believers and for us to worship there because i know what she means you call me out upon the waters heck yeah he does yeah my feet may fail i have to have that faith but i will call upon your name and keep my eyes above the waves and otherwise don't look down i'm going to keep my eyes on you when oceans rise my soul will rest in your embrace i'm yours and you are mine and it's more of a celebration that your faith is in somebody who claims you and you can claim him because of your friend that's a celebration of that relationship and it's faithfulness so i don't necessarily think like it has to say and jesus died upon the cross and rose again you know like that's cool and there's nothing like i love that but i don't think it's 100 necessary for every time we worship in a song say i disagree with the whole solid food versus milk i feel like that's a weaker song weaker milk because well that's fine too but i just thought you said that people might not have known about that so that's why i called it more solid food but i i wouldn't necessarily disagree but i just meant in that context but yeah i think i think i understand what both you're saying you're saying not every song has to include jesus dying on the cross but what andrew's saying is that worshiping god is part of the gospel because we're saved for the purpose of glorifying god so when we're saying i will enter his gates with thanks so your point was well there's nothing about calvary in there and andrew's saying right that doesn't mean it's not gospel centered because it's still praising god which is part of the gospel is that kind of what we're getting at i would say so yeah so in this example i'm kind of like okay that's why i thought the bridge was the most impactful part for me the spirit lead me where my trust is without borders yeah for sure because it is a little bit murky maybe it's because there's waters are being churned up you're welcome but yeah i don't have a problem with it but i will say it takes a long while for me before it gets going i guess is my problem i think that's kind of what andrew was getting that yeah oh before like before it's like what are we talking about here and then i finally get it the best rendition i've ever heard of this is the one with the drum solo huh there is one there's one okay there's an arrangement with a drum so it's hilarious that's incredible i'll show you all after the episode's over i will say one thing it is okay to have references that only bible literate people understand i'm okay with that um the goal is to use the song to teach them about that though so as long as you do that in a way so if like there's another in the fire i would imagine that 90 oh goodness 90 percent of christians who hear the song there is another in the fire may not know just by the title that that is referring to when nebuchadnezzar through shadrach meshach and amen and go in a billy goat medea in the fire and then there's another in the fire right yeah but the purpose of the song and we could argue about if it does a good job or not is to teach that that was true for them so it's true for us too yeah all right done with that but don't forget andrew has two listener questions also he does have two lists but i don't know if he has a question for you but i'm sure he has a question for you andrew is that the last song that's the last song we did it man we got there we got through our whole hold up five fingers i wanted to be part of it i know i wasn't invited no it's cool you're back in it now i'll add the uh i'll add the sound effect back at it back at it again back at the table guys if you liked that game we'll do more games like that just let us know in the comments boom it's fun all right now did dalton like the game who cares i do he went got the batteries

He did cuz our listeners don't know that that died again. Yep, but he wouldn't get batteries for it But now I just told him it did so I'm gonna put on my host hat

All right, I'm putting back on the host hat Oh, right So we have two from I would make a terrible host from a lost episode we had that has yet to be done

Hopefully it'll be done soon. Um Last episode where I was the host believe it or not.

It was fun. It was a great episode We're gonna get airing right? No, who we're gonna get it to air, right?

Yeah, I've well for as long as I'm alive So I don't die between now and then I should be fine.

We should be good. All right so Gentlemen, which have been

Norna Samuel and bring you back just to finish that. Oh That was a joke. Oh, wow.

Well, yeah, it was a pretty good reference. I don't know. Here's the question It was totally a joke though But can we just because this is a podcast and is about conversation just a question when

Samuel was brought back by the Witch of Endor could he have Sat down at a computer and typed or was he in corporeal?

Well one they didn't have computers He would have been in corporeal without a body because the resurrection of the dead has not happened yet So he would have been that's what

I would think but it does that mean that the spirit is unable to okay. Okay, okay

Okay, so I guess we're not doing this list we're gonna we're gonna do it we're gonna get to it, man

We're gonna get to it man. I'm just saying I would we brought up a ghost unfortunately

Get it go. Okay, right. Would he be able? This is might be fruitless

Could he be able to could he do anything other than talk because he could talk he could vocalize

Like and how do our bodies vocalize with vocal cords? Yeah, but yeah, but spirit.

Yeah, but in the spiritual realm, yeah, they can still speak. Yeah Share from her sing like right now like in the guy in hell the guy in hell

Abraham Yeah, there has to be some type of physical reputation where they can be recognized

Peter recognized There was Elijah Moses Yeah, and he was able to do that even though he had never seen a picture of Elijah and Moses for sure

On the mountain transfiguration. Yeah, by the way, I didn't think about that till last week just done out there, but I don't think huh, you're right, but I don't think like right

Gosh, I'm probably the step on some toes, but just step on let me finish the sentence Okay, okay.

I'm speaking to our listeners here. Okay? Our loved ones are not walking. Are you kidding?

Our loved ones who are in Christ Who have died and are in heaven right now? Yeah are not walking on golden streets yet because that's part of the new heavens.

Yeah Moving so far their purgatory. No They are in eternal bliss, there's no crying no tears and all that stuff the streets silver

Just regular asphalt that they gotta repave It's been striped yes, but they do not have their bodies yet.

They're glorified bodies Okay, okay. They don't have the glorified bodies yet. The Closest picture we have to a glorified body is

Resurrected Jesus and remember lots of people in the Bible have been raised only one was resurrected.

Correct, and that was Jesus Jesus ate and by the way ate the flesh of an animal for you steak lovers.

There is hope Yeah, it's gonna have to be done without killing an animal which heaven's capable of doing that apparently

Yeah So my answer would be Samuel could communicate just like Elijah Moses could the guy that was in hell

Abraham But no, I don't think he would have been eating and that kind of knocking pictures off of the wall

We'll know what he said to didn't he say why did you? I've been resting and now you've pulled me back into this was chillin

No, no, I'm not and even though I'm back with your stupid self The witch of Endor was like, oh,

I literally left because of you I was fixing all of your problems and now

I don't have to deal with it anymore death. I this tall loser To me

God may be pretty but you're stupid you took my job

Yeah, all right, all right, let's do that I was working of course, yeah So now

I want to talk about ghost. Well, you know what? We'll have an oh we We need to have that episode

We'll have an episode about ghosts cuz I got plenty to say I want to talk about ghosts Can I have somebody

I think I'd want to bring on not in 20 minutes. No, I have somebody I think I'd want to bring on too, but all right

Let's just pick one of those. All right, here we go. I know you have to all right When is sin

Okay There are biblical examples of when a sin was the means to the end specifically the prostitute saving two spies

Well, sin is always okay. Sin is always okay. God God died. So The end in the podcast next question.

Do you feel okay saying that? You notice I didn't make eye contact

What Is it Galatians 6 1 that all

I could think about or is it Romans 6 1 which one Therefore what should we say then should we

Roman 6 1 Should we keep on sinning and less grace abound?

No, you know How have we who have died to sin continue to live in it? That's the line people don't understand when when people read that and they say

And then I'm gonna take a stab at that when people read that and they say Shall we continue and send the grace from bound they read that as oh see we shouldn't continue and sin even though there's grace

Yeah, that's but verse 2 is not what that says. It says you can't how can we who have died to sin still?

Walking it living it and the answer is you can't first John 3 9 Does not continue on the practice of sinning right?

Yeah, and of course good spirit of God lives in them Of course, there's a there's a struggle we could talk about that progression later on but there is a progression upward but to get to the question the question saying there are times in the

Bible where sin was Seen as a means to an end My answer to that is slightly complicated

But I don't think there is an example in the Bible where God Instructed sin as a means to an end

Yeah And when they say there are several examples I don't think there are the the one people point out to most is is is the whore from Jericho rehab

Is there is her name rehab? Yeah Good for me And the point being is

Let's see. They said we're of a spy. She says I don't know she was hiding them, you know, whatever, right? Yeah, and Comparisons often made to Holocaust Jews, for example stuff like that, right?

the presupposition behind that is Always not telling the truth is a sin

Which I think is a simplistic view Yeah, okay

Lying and a lying spirit God hates yeah God hates But How that's described is not what we see in rehab

Okay, and we could we can get in there if you want, but if you go to Hebrews 11 she is included in The writers exposition of those who had faith

Yeah, she is and What's so amazing about that? I don't mean that rabbit trail too much Do you know why she became a

Christian if we want to use that terminology? You know what she said I Heard about what your

God Yahweh Did to the Egyptians? Mm. Yeah, and the

Egyptians suck So and they were the most powerful nation and they're gone

So I'm not putting up a fight against you guys and I believe in your God She's also included in the genealogy of Jesus because she was brought in people who say that God always had a mind for Gentiles.

Yeah, it was she was brought in. That's awesome. So my answer is lying

Is more than simply not telling the truth? Now I know that gets complicated but lying is

It's dangerous say it's just about intentions because that's not true, but there is something different than What Rahab did and what you did at work to get a raise

That's what I'm trying to get. Yeah, man. Is it the is it what's at stake? Is it the protection of a life is is it in because it was for righteous reasons of God just reasons.

Yes Selfish reasons or righteous reasons in the same way when God said

I want you to kill the Canaanites But I also said do not murder so how is it not sinful for you to go and kill the

Canaanites because It's in service of God, oh Well, can we use the

Amorites because God was using Israel to judge the Canaanites for murder rape child sacrifice

You would do the same thing with the Amorites Oh God did that to the Amorites. He did that to all the Canaanites God Pagan pagan nations to do that to his

Syria Babylon Persia use them as judgment. So they were God use them as judgment.

I think it's worth pointing out There's a wide difference in Hebrew just like there's an

English string killing and murdering. Not all killing is evil. I Can think of a certain president in a certain?

Eastern European country who? Just attacked another country that I do

I think I've lost the right to live That's not murder. That's warfare. That's killing.

That's not the same thing in the Bible or in the real world, obviously Correct, and I think so Rahab was noted for her faith.

She believed God That's that's the purpose And in that she had no intentions of selfishness

But in obeying God, I think that's really important right there because making the distinction

When it's okay, and when it's not, okay, you know, it's like oh, you know This might serve a good purpose if I do this, you know,

I'm saying like Mm -hmm a righteous purpose forget about right and two more just just two more just right there and then

I'll shut up If it comes between obeying God or somebody else it's always

God King 525 yes, we must obey God rather man King here to the to the

Magi to the to the wise men Oh, yeah, come back and tell me God told them

Do by the way, don't go back there. We we have no record. They may have said sure thing

Then God told them not to yeah, did they lie? Well, you would think so cuz that was their King Yeah, you're right and there have been like there were wise men that region

Yeah, because they were from another but in that region they were wise men. They're standing there in front of them, right? No, sir

God commands us to obey our earthly rulers. Mm -hmm

But when that comes between obeying God or an earthly ruler who is not representing

God We must obey God rather than man. Yeah No Take that that's what yes, that's what

Rahab did. What what did you say? I said take that Sanhedrin. Yeah, you silly gooses

They were talking about the other question that we have on the top on the docket for today.

My friends Is from actually one of my students Why didn't God just stop it before it started?

He was referring to Adam and Eve. Why did he allow the snake in there? In the garden why

Did if God knows everything and could have started they start with if yeah

If God knows everything and God is all -powerful and omnipotent and all the other open inhibitors

Then why on this earth that he created that's green

Did he not stop it before it started? How old is that student? 13 great that person watches this

Do not ever be afraid to ask questions like that and I told him that we are too long Have silenced questions because they were too difficult

Everyone who listens to this should know that if anyone has ever told you not to question the

Bible, they're morons Yeah, you can't learn without asking questions and they probably don't know the

Bible not to mention you you can't wrestle with something if you are

Dominated by it. Yeah, like if like I've noticed this with with different Different different kids that go there that I teach

That at the beginning of the year their answer to most of the questions like what is I asked them? What what is the gospel?

What exactly is it? And they said the Bible. I was like, okay, let's flush it out a little bit What does that mean?

the Bible and The next question was all right. Well who wrote the Bible God Okay fair.

Yeah Jesus Okay But what about the other people?

All right. Well, that's all it matters. Okay, but yes to what you were saying it If you don't have doubt if you don't question things

You're gonna be that simplistic and people are gonna take you and go would your your argument is that the

Bible is all true and You don't have anything else. You can't back up your claim.

But other than saying Jesus the Bible or God right, which is a simplistic our questions like that and make atheists.

Yes, I Mean, it's just such a good question God is

Taught to know everything to be all -powerful can do anything and yet well, we're sitting here in a garden this person died of cancer and Yet this person was killed in a car accident.

Yeah, this is so I'm just like Do you have something to say before I go into it? well if you're gonna take a stab at it first because I'll take a quick stab and then

I'll go and then you take It's gonna be inside. We're trying to figure out if this baked potatoes baked. All right, you know you go first hunter

All right. I'm first off. I want to just say that he's not asking the question.

He thinks he is he You're not actually asking. Why did God let

Satan into? The garden you're asking. Why does God allow sin to exist?

You're asking why does God allow evil? Correct, correct First of all a large portion of Theological debate is all centered around The ability to choose

What does God make us automatons does God make us does God force us into this does

God force us into that and I think There's something to be said about the nature of love when it comes to this question

So if I were to create If I were to create oh this will speak to this new generation if I were to create a

Fake internet person right on the internet and I were to go and I were to animate this person now were to you know

Give butter. I huh butter Filson. I don't know what you just said, but kazoon tight

It's your alternate name butter bunter bunter feels that okay.

Yeah, and I make this bunter Filson and Coin it I gave them an AI and I gave them like really advanced and all that but in their programming

They had to do anything that I said and they were programmed to love me

I'm wanting to know Exactly if you believe that that would be love of course not no because what is love it's a free choice

It's it's okay. There's a choice in it service. Yeah, I'm sorry Yeah, you're right

But that's what I'm looking for sacrifice and service to another so Another thing to note is that the existence of our person is for the glory of God and For him to love us and us to love him.

We know his sacrifice. It was his own life Our sacrifice has to come somewhere else because if we were given

Nothing and no choice other than him and the world was perfect and all that then our

Love would not be true. It would not be full We our expression could not be

Everything because there was no other choice when we are given something in this case sin evil there's not a

Honest person on the planet who says sin is not enticing or that sin is not fun or that sin is not something they want to do there's not an honest person who wouldn't say that sure so there has to be a

Sacrifice what are you giving up? I can say I love God all day long when God's all I got

But when I have something over here that says, oh, this is awesome.

This is fun. And then I have God over here That's when I'm really showing my love for God is when

I say I'm going to deny myself because it is in my nature to want this my very being my very drive my my

Nature is to run to this and yet I will deny not the sin, but my own self

To run to this, but if we were perfected then denying ourself would be denying him so to deny ourself from sin to choose

Christ is Love and it fulfills what it is that God was trying to do

Yeah, sure, absolutely Yeah Yeah, we are creating

God's image we're not created Tomatons we've got five minutes So let me let me try to take a stab at this one.

If you don't mind go for it Okay, why did God just not stop now this person asked genuinely?

I It's funny when atheists they do something like the Canaanites for example, and they'll say why did

God use Israel to kill the Canaanites? Because they were disobeying him sacrificing their children and all that stuff, right?

So there's this evil happening The Canaanites are doing evil The atheist says why does

God not stop it? So he sends the Israelites to kill them and they stopped They say why did he do that?

Yeah, and they say Why did they do that They'll start with the what's evil and you'll say because they chose to do evil, right?

Then you'll say why didn't he do something about he punishes for it then they say why did he punish them for it?

Why didn't he just make them stop then we have times in the Bible where God Sovereignly decrees something

Even against the intentions of the person he decreed it against and they say what's he doing taking away their choice

So in other words no matter what he does but but to the Christian To the

Christian problem of evil has always been tough. It's called theodicy Here's what you have to keep in mind, why did he not just stop it?

Why is the snake there? Question is question goes back further than that Satan was there because God threw him down there, right?

Why did Satan rebel in the first place? How can there be a tree of knowledge of good and evil if evil wasn't already there evil wasn't in existence?

You say well the evil came from Satan agreed Agreed because he said before Eve did how did he ever sin?

How did a perfectly created being ever sin? God did not inject sin or evil in the people.

That's not what the Bible teaches It's not like he's building the powerpuff girls. Oh, no,

I added too much evil Shot that one down.

Here's what we know God has a purpose for everything Including evil actions.

Yeah, he has a purpose for everything You know, it's amazing the most evil event ever done ever in the history of mankind

Was done at the cross. Yep and that evil

Romans Jews Herod Pilate, this is Acts 4 26 27 28 was purposed for our salvation

So even though I can't I'll be honest with you. I can't perfectly explain why God did it that way in the garden

I can't I cannot perfectly explain but if God can use the most evil event to ever happen

Yeah, and then show us how that's used for his glory in our benefit Then I have to trust all of that can be purposed

For the ultimate good for our glory for his good pleasure, even if I can't see it at the time

When it comes to the garden We can Use the terms free choice and it helps us understand because God did not create on atomic robots, right

We can use that and that does help but it still doesn't satisfy the question for me because still

I sit here I'm like, why is there a hell? Why is there a hell Revelation 15 verse 3 and 4 is the most helpful answer to that for me and it basically says this

Great and amazing are your deeds Oh Lord God the Almighty who will not fear and glorify your name for all your righteous acts have been revealed one day we will get to see the the symphony the the

Tapestry that God has been weaving that God has been orchestrating conducting all along and we will see that every one of them were

Righteous according to Philippians 2 even those in hell Will say yep, that dude is

Lord. Yep, and will bow the knee. I Believe the Bible teaches that everyone on that day will say you know what on the verge of blasphemy if I was

God I would have done it that way In other words, we were all out of light to think that I could do it We will all agree that was the good righteous just Merciful thing to do even if we can't see it at the time.

So my answer to Student X is I don't know But the

Bible teaches there's a purpose for it even when I can't see it. Yeah Okay.

I think we're running out of time because the camera people are yelling at us and Well, they're yawning and stretching and pretend non -verbally

Well, they're good at that. That's what they do Nonverbals, well guys good podcast.

It's a great pod. That was You know what? We've done that twice to you and it's because you zoned out on us for 10 minutes

I was just making sure I was very interested in that but guys if you liked the podcast like we have to talk about Let us know drop something in the comments.

You can always thank you for the Sonic, please Email us your questions. We're listen point taken at gmail .com

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