Romans 15:27-33 - The Preaching & Ministry of Paul, Pt. 3 (03/19/2023)

Good morning everyone. I was thinking about, I sent all of you an email, but you probably won't get it until you get home because you probably didn't check your email this morning, but it got me thinking about our church in general.

We've got, I think about all of our folks that have been around for a long time and how we sort of took the foundation from Jesus and the apostles and the New Testament and began to build on that. And then all the different things that we went through when we were in our youth.

And then I think about our young people now in our church, the ones that have little ones and all the things that they're doing and stepping up and you know, not just watching us anymore, but actually taking the lead.

And you know, the thing about Zach fixing our fellowship hall where we can actually hear each other. We've talked about that for five years and you just went in there and did it. So I'm sure you had some help, but I mean, I don't know if you did or not, but appreciate that.

And David's class this morning was quite amazing. I picked up two or three really amazing thoughts from his Sunday school lesson today that really could, you know, change the way you think about things is really good.

And the letter that Katie and Dave wrote, I don't know, that's what I emailed to you. The school board here wrote a letter that was printed in the local newspaper, very negative about Governor Abbott's visit with our school and our city.

And so they sent a rebuttal out and they got it printed. And so it's in your email when you get home, I would read it. It's really great. But so the Lord is, you know, if you want to talk about school and brother Paul and Glenda, but you guys fit in with the old folks at this point, right?

You've been, when you've been here 10 years, if you've been here 10 years, that's like part of the foundation. So, but I was thinking while you were up here talking, I was thinking, I was so fortunate to watch and to know personally brother Lester Roloff, one of the great preachers of all of church history, but right here from Dawson, Texas is where he was born.

He took his milk cow to Baylor and sold milk to pay for his tuition at Baylor. He got a PhD in theology. Nobody knew that he wouldn't let him call him calling him Dr. Roloff. He said, no, it's brother Lester.

He talked like that, but he was an amazing preacher and he had a home with 300 acres where kids on drugs could go and get cured. Young, I mean, adults could go. Men had a women's home, a men's home and a youth girls and a boy's home and had like an 80 to 85 cure rate.

The state of Texas had like a 20 cure rate. That's not real accurate, but it was low. I think it was around 20 and it was amazing to watch that work, but you know, he died, he was a pilot and he was flying to to do a meeting.

He was an evangelist as well. He flied to do a meeting and went through a storm and it blew the wings off and he crashed and went to heaven that day. He had preached a sermon at our church was, as far as I know, one of the last meetings he did before he went to be with the Lord in Mahea.

We put up a big tent and had, I don't know, 300 or 400 people under the tent in Mahea to hear Lester Roloff preach. Helicopters were flying in from Dallas with news people to talk to him and he got famous because the state closed his home down and he fought it in court and won it and opened it back up.

Then I think they appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and they ended up closing it again, at least the part for the kids. They didn't want us helping kids, right? Well, anyway, the last sermon he preached was on, I don't know how many reasons he listed, but it was like a bunch, 10 reasons I'm ready to go to heaven or something like that.

And just a few weeks later, his plane went down and he went to heaven and he preached that sermon at our church right before he went to heaven. But my story is this, after he was gone, even though he had trained good leaders and so forth, it just wasn't the same anymore.

And because what God does is he blesses men and women for a particular job at a particular time and he puts his power on that man or that woman and uses that person to do what he wants to do. And Paul Davis is such a man.

If he's not here, the school won't be what it is. He cannot train someone to do what he does. God has to anoint a person. And so that's just the way it is. So if you do go somewhere, take the kids with you because we can't handle them.

You know, seriously though, God has to do things. Now I'm not saying God can't bring another man that's anointed or a woman like he did at First Baptist. I always think of that case. It's the only case I know of.

So it doesn't happen often, but you had Truett there who was an amazing preacher at First Baptist Dallas. And when he died, God brought Dr. Criswell who even took it higher. But after he was gone, it's not the same now over there.

So you see my point. So each of us are very important. We're the ones God put here to do whatever it is he's doing, which is quite amazing in the school, raising up these young people to be leaders in America, where our public schools are failing in that job terribly.

It's a joke to read if they try to write and say what a good job they're doing. It's really interesting to read. It reminds me of the scriptures when they say that they argue with themselves, their arguments go full circle against themselves.

But it was a great letter you guys wrote, and I hope you guys will read it. Anyway, you know, you mentioned the nation a lot in your prayer time this morning too, but your Sunday school lesson nailed it.

Let's see, it was Psalm 12. If you want to read, I find stuff all through the Bible about business in the Bible. We've even got a podcast about that, business in the Bible. We don't call it that, but that's what it's about.

But that Psalm is about politics in the Bible. And it's pretty, if you weren't here for Sunday school, go read it when you get home because it pretty well nails where America is right now. And it's kind of frightening to think about, not really because we know who's in control, but we know who thinks they're in control too right now.

And they're not, but they think they are, and they can do some real damage while they're there. And they surround us because they pull people like them in, into the generals and our military become like them.

If they can affect the judicial system, it becomes like them. The Congress tries, you know, it's just, they pull evil people in with them and it takes God raising up a good man or woman to change it. So, you know, and it takes somehow the, they got to win by such a margin that the cheating won't even show up.

And that's not easy to do because it's about 50 -50 in the country. I think it's more like 55 -45, them winning actually. It's just, they don't all get out and vote. So now that they figured out how they can vote from home for everybody in their household, we're in trouble.

I've said that for years though, you've heard me say it. If they ever get where they can vote from home, we'll never win another election. I bet I've said that a hundred times. Well, we're there now, but God can still do amazing things.

So we don't, we don't give up hope because we know who is in control. We don't know God's plan for America. It's mysteriously difficult to find in scripture unless you're one like I sort of am. I think I'm, I think I'm along with the crowd that believes where it mentions the isles, like island, the isles, that that's a reference perhaps to England and all of her babies, which America is one of her babies.

And it could be a reference to America. I don't know. But other than that, it's really hard to find if America is even there during the tribulation period. We know that without America right now, seemingly Israel would fall, right?

And Israel can't fall, can she? She can fall, but not until Armageddon. And at that point, right, right before she falls, Jesus saves her. So America has a great role right now, as long as we support Israel.

And you can be thankful for you. If you have kids or grandkids, you can be thankful for that. If you ever see America change that stance, then you should move to another continent because this country will get nuked from every direction.

And you might rather watch that on TV from somewhere else. So if we ever stopped supporting Israel, or I would say, I would dare say if we don't win the next presidential election, then you might want to be thinking about at least not living too near a city, which we're pretty good here.

I don't think they'll nuke, of course, Canada, but they will probably hit Fort Hood and Dallas, Houston for the oil and stuff like that. So they didn't build those for nothing, the nukes. Are you with me?

They weren't built not to be used. And the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. That's the humans that control these things. So listen, you have to be preparing in some way or another. Maybe just emotionally and spiritually you prepare.

Maybe some of you physically prepare. I know a lot of you are armed to the tilt and plenty of ammo. So you at least for a while protect your food from the people who try to flee Dallas, right, or whatever.

But it's a very serious time we live in. Things are changing unusually and fast. Last Saturday, not yesterday, but I think last Sunday, I mentioned the day before there was a major volcanic eruption. And if you go to YouTube and look at it, you can see the power of God there.

There was an earthquake yesterday in Ecuador that I think the death toll will be much higher. At that point, it was only 12, but it's probably much higher by this morning. Just two weeks before that in Turkey, in part of Syria, I believe.

Am I right? Did I get the country right on that? Turkey anyway. Killed thousands by an earthquake. And so, you know, things are changing. I understand we had a twister that went right over our property here, missed us, missed your house barely.

And then I'm going to drive out that way towards the country club on the way home and take a look because apparently there's trees and everything down. So the Lord spared our building. But, you know, we have to—your Sunday school lesson day was all about coming to the Lord and crying out because that is all we can do at this point.

It's funny how we phrase that. We say all we can do is—now all we can do is pray because we always wanted to try to fix it ourselves first. That's very human of us. It's not very godly. The prophets of old didn't do that.

Elijah didn't do that. He just said, open his eyes, Lord, so he can see who's protecting us out here. Remember that? I don't know how many tens of thousands of angels were surrounding the army that was threatening him.

That was no threat, right? So we're at the place of crying out for this nation, but we don't know God's will for this nation because there's not a lot of it revealed in scripture. If you find anything, bring it to me, please.

If you find something other than the idea of the aisles. But I do think—I mean, I hate to say it, but I think there is one other place the United States is mentioned. I think it's the great whore in the book of Revelation where they're in boats out on the water watching it be destroyed in a moment.

I think that's New York City, but I could be wrong. So I think America is listed there. But, I mean, we've just got to really be in prayer, crying out to the Lord. I mean, for very important things like where should we be?

What should we be doing? We're not supposed to be on our house waiting for Jesus to come back and doing nothing. We're supposed to be working. And, you know, things like that letter that you guys wrote.

I'll tell you what's interesting about that is who reads the Course in the Daily Sun, right? I mean, we'll read it because I told you about it, but you don't read it. But guess what? What's the young lady's name that's on the think tank, the governor's think tank?

Mandy. Mandy what? Drogon. Mandy Drogon is part of a think tank in Austin that the governor utilizes a lot for things that he does. And she proofed the letter that they wrote before they sent it to the paper.

And she said, oh, I like it. And, you know, it's funny how she said that. I won't repeat it, but anyway, it was fun. It wasn't bad, but I mean, it was funny how she said it, but she said, I'm going to send this all over the, I'm going to send this everywhere.

Everybody's going to see this. So this little bitty church has an effect on things going on in the country. And if you affect the country, you affect the world, right? Dave and I are going to go out for the first time since COVID and do a live meeting next weekend.

So I won't be here to preach, but John King's coming and he'll be with you to preach. And Ben is going to do Sunday school. Dave and I will be in Denver. Colorado is an interesting place where a lot of people from California have moved there and they've changed the voting records of Colorado.

It's very liberal now. We're going to be right in the middle of that, Dave-O. So what are we going to do? We're going to talk about the stock market and we're also going to show all through the Bible how business principles are there.

And mysteriously, the gospel gets mixed right in with the business principles somehow at our meetings. But I mean, we can have an effect. So this little church is sort of the foundation for a lot of stuff going on in the country.

And thank God for that. Well, let's pray. Lord, thank you for our service. Thank you for everything you've put in our hearts and minds already. Now we ask you to be with us as we study your word for a few more moments.

And we ask it in Jesus name. Amen. In this particular part of the book of Romans chapter 15 and starting about verse 17 and following, we have found several things about the apostle Paul that are enlightening for us because in my book, he's the best Christian that's ever lived.

And I don't know that God is the judge and we'll see, but I think he might be the best Christian, the most powerful, amazing Christian that ever lived in the last 2000 years that we know of. And so it's interesting to read about him as a person to see how God used him and what he did to prepare his heart and how he thought and how he spoke.

And there's a lot of that in the latter half of chapter 15 of Romans. First of all, we found out that this was about verse 17 that Paul did not preach with poems and little cute stories and things like David talked about in Sunday school this morning, vanity, like things that are vanity.

If it's not God's word, it's vanity. It's empty. It doesn't make people grow. Well, Paul didn't preach that way. He preached the word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, not with flowery words or overly educated sounding terminology and phrases, but he preached a simple, powerful, Holy Spirit filled messages straight from the scriptures.

And that's the first thing we saw. Then going down through 17 to 20, we see that Paul did not build his churches on the work of others like Mormons do, like Jehovah's witnesses do, like Charismatics and Pentecostals do, not so much the Pentecostals, but the Charismatics.

They'll take your brand new convert, bring them over to their home and teach them, try to teach them how to speak in tongues. And I've always wondered, you know, like if that's a gift, how do you teach it?

But to them, it's taught. And I will say this publicly as often as you get me to say it, is that there's only two things that can cause modern tongue speaking because it's not the Holy Spirit. There's only two things.

It can be a psychological learned response or it's demonic. And often it's both in the same room. And I believe this is my theory here. Those who start out with the psychologically taught version can may well end up with a demonic version if they keep going with it.

Because the Holy Spirit tells us in Hebrews chapter one, verse one and two, that he no longer speaks to us that way. So if they're doing it, they're faking it. Well, when you fake, you open the door for demons to come in and say, well, we'll, we'll be the Holy Spirit.

If you don't believe me, read the story in the book of Acts. I believe it is where Paul was going down the street preaching and this young girl was following and say, Hey, listen to him. He's telling you things of God.

He's telling you the gospel. You need to listen to him. He's telling you the truth. He turned around after a while, he got tired of it because she was making a show of everything and a mockery of Christianity.

So he turned and looked at her and cast the demons out. She was filled with demons who were telling the people to listen to the best Christian who ever lived. So why is it people think they always know it's God when stuff like that's happening?

Oh, it's God. It's the Holy ghost. And a lot of times, if you'll notice, they don't say it's the Holy spirit. They'll say it's the spirit. The spirit is among us. Listen, that's true. The spirit is, but it's not the Holy spirit.

Well, you have all of this sort of thing going on. And these people love to take the people that you witnessed to, and they get saved, but they're new babies. And if you don't disciple them quickly enough, they will grab them with an appearance of love and caring, teach them to speak in tongues and, and convince them they can cure them of cancer and then bring them into their church.

I've seen it my whole life in ministry. I've seen it. And they do, it's called proselytizing and they do it. And, but Paul did not do that. All right. That's verse 20 of chapter 15 of Romans. Now next thing, and down around verse 25, Paul was an entrepreneur preacher who did not take a salary from the church.

He was a tent maker. And so we see all of these cool things going down through there. I think we ended up last time talking about where he rebuked the false apostles and deceitful workers. And we talked a little bit about the Pentecostal movement in particular, who believes that they still have apostles.

Well, they don't because one of the qualifications in the Bible is you have to walk physically with Jesus. So they're lying about that. And Paul rebuked false apostles. We should do the same. All right.

So now that brings us where we are. And we had gone out to the book of Philippians chapter four, if you'd like to turn there and kind of a little bit of a parallel passage on some of the things we're studying in Romans 15.

And because my next point comes from there. So Philippians chapter four, verse 10 and following, let's read it a little bit. But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now Philippians 4 .10, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again, wherein you were also careful, but you lacked opportunity.

Now, you have to look at the Greek a little bit on this word care, where he said you cared for me, because the word literally is phroneo, which means to exercise the mind, to entertain or have a sentiment or opinion about something or someone.

So he's not saying you took care, you took care of me financially. He's saying, you had good thoughts of me. You, you had warm sentiments of me. Now that can lead to taking care of helping people financially.

And in the context of this, I believe that it did, but the word doesn't mean that. So these people had warm feelings about the apostle Paul. They wanted to help his ministry and Paul, they know that Paul's a businessman building tents and selling them and has money, but they want to help anyway.

They want to help further the ministry. So look at verse 11, not that I speak in respect of want, for I have learned in whatsoever state that I'm in, wherewith to be content. So we can see that at some points in Paul's life, he bordered on having wealth because wealth just means more than you need to live on.

He had extra. And then in other points in his life, he was in virtual poverty. He didn't even have enough food to eat. And here's what he says about that is when I find myself in want, which means I don't have all the things I need right this minute.

He said, I've learned in whatever state I'm in to be content. So Paul could be content if he had wealth and he could be content if he had nothing. Why? Because money's just a tool and he knew it and it's not God.

It doesn't take the place of God. It can't even come close. And he had God. So he was content in any state he was in. Verse 12 says, I know both how to be abased, which means have nothing and to be mocked because I have nothing by other men.

And I know how to abound, which means to be wealthy everywhere. And in all things, I am instructed both to be full and I'm instructed how to be hungry. Who instructs him? The Holy Spirit and the word of God.

Two things always, the water and the spirit, the water of the word and the spirit. Same thing. This is the theme we've seen through much of these last chapters in Romans. So I know how to be abased and I know how to abound everywhere.

And in all things, I am instructed both to be full and how to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ, which strengthened me. And don't you find it interesting that that right there is a famous verse that's pulled out and used all over the place in all kinds of writings and speeches and pastors just throw it in the sermons and they don't throw it in with that context.

Isn't that interesting? Because he's not talking about I can be powerful. I mean, that's not the context. I can like with God with me, I can break down walls and take over Washington and Austin and we can get rid of all the bad people and make sure it's only good people in charge.

I can do all that through Christ to strengthen me. He's just saying, look, I know how to prosper and still walk with God and not let the money ruin me. Not let money be an idol. It doesn't affect Paul.

And I know how to be hungry and in want and not let that make me bitter towards God. I'm fine in that state. In fact, I can do hungry and I can do full. I can do all things through Christ to strengthen me.

That's the context of that verse. So it becomes useless if it's all about power that you want to have in the world. It's not for that. What it is for is contentment. But let me tell you something. If you can be content when you got nothing and you can be content when you have everything, then you do have power.

You have power over this entire world because this whole entire world, all they seek is money and power. And they're not going to be content when they don't have it. And so you're a more powerful person than they are.

So in that sense, you can do all things through Christ which strengthens me. Verse 14 says, notwithstanding, you have well done that you did communicate with my affliction. Now that word communicate is a word literally, it's like two little Greek words.

You put them together. It means to co-participate. It's funny because that's redundant, isn't it? Participate means do it with you. Co means to do it with you. So it's like, it's to double be with me.

You're being with me in my afflictions. You are with me when I'm doing well. You don't get jealous because I have money. When I'm hungry, you don't mock me because I have nothing. You participate in my life and you support me.

And that's how the Philippian church was toward Paul. It's really quite an amazing relationship that they had. Verse 15 says, now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel. Now think about that right there.

The beginning of the gospel started with Paul. Why is that? Because the other apostles didn't understand the mystery that God gave Paul out in that wilderness for on and off for three years when Jesus himself met with him physically.

You know how I know it's physically? Because you can't be an apostle, start saying a possible. You can't be an apostle if you didn't walk with Jesus physically. So that's how I know. So Jesus appeared and met with Paul in the wilderness and taught him the things he needed to know.

The mystery of the church, which was something the Jews had a hard time with. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, something they had a hard time with. Jesus taught him all the mysteries of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the church and the rapture that would come.

Paul's the one who spoke of that. I don't see too many other people. Job referred to the second coming, but not specifically the rapture in that sense, more the resurrection. But Paul brought us the rapture.

Think about that. An entire doctrine that Paul brought that the other apostles didn't. So this was the beginning of the gospel when Paul began his journey, which we'll talk about that in a minute. When I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only.

So now, see, this whole idea of communicating does not mean money. It means with your heart. With your heart and soul, I support you. I support you when you're down. I support you when you're up. I support you when you're being criticized by others.

I support you when it seems like you've won every argument. You see, they were just with Paul no matter what. But when it qualifies that with the adjective phrase that says concerning giving and receiving, now you know it's an aspect that it does have to do with money.

So they did give Paul a love offering. Verse 16, for even in Thessalonica you sent once and again unto my necessity. So what we see here is some of the money Paul received from the Thessalonicans had actually been sent from the church at Philippi, perhaps to the church at Thessalonica, to be given to Paul to further his ministry.

Now we know from Scripture that Paul didn't use that money to live on. He went to great lengths to explain why he didn't, especially when he was at Corinth, because that church would have thought he was just like all the other false apostles if he preached for money.

So he wouldn't take any of their money. But this money was given to him to further his ministry, which part of his ministry was to take money to the poor church at Jerusalem and give it to them and be a blessing to them.

And these other churches knew that they could participate. If they could get this money to Paul, he would get it to where it was needed. And so it's not like Paul was taking a salary. He was a tent maker.

In the year 148 BC, 20 years after the fall of the kingdom of Macedonia to Rome in the year 168 BC, Thessalonica was made the capital of the Roman province of Macedonia. So when you see in the Scripture where it talks about Thessalonica, or then it talks about Macedonia, it's kind of talking about the same place, the same church, because Thessalonica was the capital of Macedonia.

Thessalonica was founded around 315 before Christ by the king Cassander of Macedon on or near the ancient town of Therma. And 26 other local villages were around there and came together to form this city now in biblical times called Thessalonica.

He named it after his wife, Thessalonike, who was the daughter of Philip II and the half-sister of Alexander the Great. Isn't that interesting? And she was the princess of Macedonia. So that's the history of this city where Paul went in to preach the gospel.

And no man had heard it in that city when he got there. It was, no one ever heard the gospel. There were probably some Jews there that talked about, you know, Moses and working your way to heaven and all that sort of stuff that they had perverted it by then.

But they had never heard the true plan of God until Paul walked into that city. Verse 17 says, not because I desire a gift. You know, verse 16 said, you gave to me twice. And he says, not because I desire to give.

See, he didn't use their money to live on. But he said, I did take the money from you because I desire fruit that may abound to your account. Now, what does that teach us? Let's stop a minute and pause because I'm going fast.

I don't have any time ever when I get up here. So what does that mean? Well, I can remember Brother Rocky saying this, my mentor, I heard him preach in so many churches, big churches, little churches, country churches, city churches, that he truly could be all things to all men.

So they would listen to his gospel. But anyway, he would tell them, look, I don't want you to give me a little love offering. I want you to give me a big love offering. I'm the Jew. Jews like money. You need to give a big love.

He didn't say it like that. He said it very eloquently, but it was almost like that. He said, you know, don't, no, no, no, no, don't give the Jew a little gift, stuff like that. But he would always tell them, you do.

He would say, you do know that those of you who are working for a living, you're running companies, you have jobs, you can't go to the places I go. But when you give to my ministry, you're part of the ministry and God gives you credit as being part of this ministry.

And this is a worldwide ministry. He would say stuff like that. And he was absolutely accurate because he based it on this verse we're looking at right here. Verse 17, not because I desire a gift, but I desire fruit for you so that like you can bear fruit so that when you get to heaven, God says, okay, I see that you had a part in these people over in, you know, New Guinea getting saved or wherever Paul or the missionary is going to go that you supported.

Verse 18. So that was a great principle in verse 17 is when you give to someone that with all your heart and the best investigation you could do really is a true preacher of the gospel. Wherever they go, you go with them.

Isn't that interesting? Whoever they went to Christ, you helped win them to Christ. And you never left your house. That's a good deal. If you want to talk about a business return on investment, that is a great return.

We had some missionaries we supported for a long time in Africa, and they would come speak about once a year and we'd always go to hear them. And when we could hear how far a dollar would go over there, like $200 gift, which everybody in this room could give a $200 gift if God led you to do it.

And if you gave them that gift, that would pay for a child to go to their Christian school for a year, a whole year, $200. Not per month, per year. Now you think about you give $200. If you do it here, your return is you help the child go to school for a week maybe here, right?

But you do it over there, it's a year. So your return on that investment is much higher when you gave it to that missionary. But that's why we told them to quit coming because Paul needs the money now.

But anyway, I'm kidding. But you see the point there in verse 17, very powerful. You are bearing fruit that you gain rewards in heaven for when you give to God's work, to genuine ministers of the gospel.

Verse 18, but I have all and abound. I am full having received of Ephroditus the things which were sent by you. So he's telling the Philippians he got, they sent him some money, some clothing, who knows what they sent him, some books.

And that gift was an odor of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable and well-pleasing to God because they gave it to Paul who was God's man. Isn't that something? So like when you give money to God's work, it's like a sweet smelling savor to the Lord.

It is truly a way that we as believer priests can offer offerings to God. Jesus is the ultimate offering that all those offerings picture, but we're supposed to give spiritual offerings. And so sometimes when we give money to God's work, it is a spiritual, considered a spiritual offering by God himself.

And Paul makes that clear in verses 17 through 23. Paul received funds from the Philippian church, which might have been sent to the, looks like were sent to the Thessalonican church to be given to Paul.

And some of it might've been used as food rations for Paul, but more likely he bought his food with his tent money and selling tents. And he used this to help the poor church at Jerusalem. But at any rate, whatever Paul used it for, it was an odor of sweet smell and sacrifice acceptable and well-pleasing to God.

Now, if we go back to Romans now, in Romans chapter 15, verse 27, that little passage was in Philippians kind of parallel with what we're studying here. So look at Romans 15, 27. It has pleased them truly that their debtors they are.

For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. Now there is a principle that's really powerful and important. And it ties right in with what we just read in Philippians, where Paul told him, when you give me money, it's like you're bearing fruit in God's kingdom and you get rewards for it, et cetera.

This is a little bit cumbersome in the English here in Romans 15, 27, a little cumbersome as you read it. But what it's saying is that when you have men and women who teach you this book, like brother Otis taught us, like Bill did for 13 years, you know, they both sat right over there, like David and Ben and others do now in our church.