Emir Caner Goes After Calvinism at TRBC

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good afternoon. Good evening, whatever time it is for you wherever you are. As that time thing that's Sunday, isn't it? It seems a little hot to me seems much louder than normal. No, I don't know why.

And you're sitting there eating dominoes. Brownie bites. That'll work real well when when the brownie bites stuff drops into the middle of the of the electronic equipment there. That'll that'll that'll work.

Well sort of like how well you're adjusting the volume right now. Anyway, uh-huh. Yes, we let you in on the inside secrets of professional webcasting stuff and Since we're on the cutting edge of professional webcasting stuff because we yeah the bleeding edge.

Slicing ourselves with some sort of tool we're trying to use to make something work. It's not actually supposed to have ever been designed to do what we're trying to make it to do anyways, so that's okay.

Hey, anyways, eight seven seven seven five three Four one stop playing with the equipment that doesn't go in there. No that doesn't fit in there. That's why it sparks. In fact when I got to the hotel room Long Island on Holiday Inn You know how they have those those lamps on the desk and they have an extension a power thing in it well, I Started to try to put my adapter into this thing and the the entire, you know plastic adapter part simply disappeared into the base.

There's a huge pop blue light everywhere and then smoke and I'm like, oh and the smoke didn't stop it kept coming out of the unit. Okay, this is like 11 15 at night, you know, and you just got just gotten soaked getting in through the rain time for a new room almost.

Especially since the AC wasn't working. So it wouldn't cool down and when I when I go Being good Arizonan that I am when I go someplace else and someone else is paying the electricity. We crank that AC down to where we could we you can see your breath, okay I mean if I get it that cold, I think it would and so but they got everything fixed eventually including replacing the the lamp and I Emphasized to the lady who picked it up.

Do not put this somewhere where it can be used again see this I pulled the whole thing out and see how it's black. That's from fire. That will kill someone okay, and She said CC and you know, I was gonna say what's the Spanish word?

I was trying to fuego fuego. I think I think I honestly would have done better because I was very concerned that she did not understand that I was saying It's not that I don't like it. So don't put another room.

You need to tell somebody in maintenance that this is like gonna kill somebody so. Anyway, hey, I got it, right. See both both Bart and Dave are saying that I got I somehow knew the right the right Spanish word, even though I'm never taking Spanish anyway.

I Was going to do something about Reformation and we're actually going to be on on Reformation Day next Tuesday. Probably both of us could be a little bit on the distracted side. I would imagine at that point in time I'm gonna be having to go and pack afterwards and things like that.

But you don't need to pack as much stuff as I have to pack because you're only got a few days. And I've got to do all the speaking and see I got to put suits and stuff and kilts and things like that. If my kilt arrives, which I'm really hoping it will I called Glasgow Scotland today?

And I talked to the guy this young this young guy named Garrett at McKenzie menswear in downtown, Glasgow he was the one who who fitted me out and stuff and and He says. And then I Called Pastor Jim hand decided to translate for me.

But so I almost there about half that conversation I honestly did not understand but I had no problem when I was looking at him. Isn't that weird? I could understand what he was saying when looking at him, but I couldn't understand what he was saying on the phone.

But I got enough of it translated that that it was shipped last week and So it should be here today or tomorrow and if by some Really bad situation. It's not that I have to call them first thing Monday morning and then they got to get hold of like customs because there must be a problem somewhere and so anyway.

Looking forward to that and I'm sure Everyone. My son just I asked him I said hey you need to make sure if there's any packages at home. You'd let me know why because my kilt supposed to arrive. Oh brother.

He doesn't even want to look for it. He's just he just wants to crawl underneath the rock or someplace. But anyhow, that's neither here nor there. We're just simply killing time here again. And we get people who complain when I do that and I honestly don't really care a whole lot that they do.

But they still complain and it's it's it takes up bandwidth. It's eight seven seven seven five three three three four. What I did is I I took the time today to download Ymir canner's sermon now, let me let me mention that I I Think he needs to change the pictures on his website because once I saw him On the video then I could see.

Yep. He's four years younger than arrogant. He does not look four years younger on his website. I Would have put him ten years older Than arrogant and so he looked much better in the video than he did on his website, which I don't understand.

But then again, he might not be able to afford the glamour shots that they're gonna do.

So is that what Botox does for you?

I don't know. No, I didn't know that's not fair because as he pointed out and I loved the banter at the beginning even though it was a service and. So I wasn't really certain that that was the best thing to do the service.

But but the band at the beginning was funny you got admit. They've obviously done this before the two of them. Because arrogant starts off talking about this wonderful wonderful person and he named somebody else and says but he's not here.

So my brother's gonna preach and it was it was good. It was very good and then when he gets up there he took his shots back and it was it was it was very very good and The one of the things he pointed out was the differences between them including hair and that one I felt the the collateral damage all the way.

All the way over here, man. Let me tell you it was. It was it was good. And once you know there you could tell Ergen could tell once he gave the microphone to emir. He knew he was in deep trouble at that point as long as he had the microphone then, okay.

But once he walked away from that pulpit. He knew he had to sit there and just just take it for a while and he did and it was very good natured about It but what he's supposed to do is your brother? You sorry you're sorry stuck with that kind of but anyway.

The the the brotherly banter back and forth was was quite was quite humorous and then for some reason emir spoke on a gospel worthy to be believed out of acts and I Had a hard time following it it it was.

I'm not really sure how to liken the whole thing. He finally started warming up to his topic, which you would expect given the context. This was the 15th, isn't it? Ironic the vine sermon was on I believe the 8th.

So a week later. You've got this major Southern Baptist churches and what you have is this this template and you have the same set of very very tired worn-out phrases. Being repeated over and over again by individuals who you you just have a hard time.

Not believing that these folks know that the other side has a response and it's a response that that they don't really have an answer to and so You just have to wonder is it it strikes you as being a little bit on the on the Desperate side.

To have to be out there preaching and preaching and preaching and repeating the same things, but you know That there are answers to what you're saying. But you don't want to talk about them and you don't want anybody else talking about them either.

That's that's the key issue there it's it's it's it's scary and I think it says a lot so 21 minutes and 39 seconds if you're anybody's looking at downloading the free mp3 from trbc .org, I believe 21 minutes and 39 seconds in.

Finally emir turns to the subject at hand. Which would be to to blast? At reformed theology in some way shape or form and so I what I'm probably going to be doing is I'm certainly gonna be taking this with me and I'll get a chance to talk with Tom later.

And if I could find the time and I might you know while traveling or whatever I've got enough batteries anyways, and that that uber cool, and I need to mention this I need to put on the blog, too. Some of you remember and I know some of you took advantage of this reformation was a reformation art.

That's reformation art calm. No renaissance art not reformation. Duh renaissance art .com. I had contacted them because I wanted to get another cover for my for my Tablet remember I put on the blog that they had made me this one and it fits the tablet as long as tablet doesn't have It some keyboard along with it.

Well, that's great. If you're just going like the services just one service or something like that but if I gonna need more than one battery, I don't have any place to carry it and have the keyboard and I could sneak it into that with keyboard on it, but it was really stretching it.

And so I contacted the folks over there at renaissance art and I I wanted to buy another cover for my tablet because I definitely use it those of you who saw me on Long Island know that that's very very common and They made me one and overnighted it to me and put a put a thing on it to allow for Me to carry both of my extra batteries for my tablet and what he did his name's Arthur.

He said look, I'm not gonna charge anything for this. I just want you to test it for me. You're going on this trip. Test it. You know. You're gonna have to take it through the screening In and out of your luggage and do all this stuff test it and let me know if this design works.

He had come up with it on his own and said let me know if this design works. Well, it worked perfectly. Just just awesome. And so I've let him know that and my understanding is they're going to be making these available now through.

You can actually order for your tablet or your PC or whatever same kind of cover that I have now tested and Have I've approved it has my seal of approval and it really did work. Well, how did I get on that?

Oh, I'm gonna put this on the tablet. Yeah. Yeah all over the place. Sometimes you just have to You know wander from topic to topic before you finally dig in and have to start dealing with this stuff.

But anyways, I Want to put some of this I want to put the Ergen Kanner sermon on on this and when I'm in the airport or on the flight or whatever I will Pull some of these clips out and then I'll see if maybe we can work some of these in.

When Tom and I are speaking on Thursday night. Because it'll sort of give it at least at least a sense of you know. Well couldn't make the debate work, but we'll we'll let them make their statement and then we'll respond to it and and go from there.

So that I think I'll probably probably work out fairly. Well, so at 21 minutes, and I'm sorry yeah, 21 minutes and 39 seconds into Ymir Kanner's sermon that really wasn't that doesn't that does include I think the entire introduction by Ergen Kanner.

So it's really not quite that long. But anyway We we begin with with this. Oh.

The Assumption That Election Depends on Human Receptivity

Why are you calling on him a gripper to make a decision. The answer? Love is never forced on anyone. It must be received. Furthermore if one admits somehow that election is done without our volition without our receptivity I have just one further question.

If God could have saved all mankind apart from man's decision.

Why didn't he now let's stop right there because you have a whole lot of Stuff packed right into only a matter of a few a few seconds there first of all the term election is a divine act. So how can you define? election on the basis of the actions of creatures.

How can my receptivity to use his terminology? Determine God's divine act of election. And would that not require? Election to be time bound or at the very least even if it takes place in Eternity past it must be based upon a knowledge of future events.

That is not only an assertion of conditional election, but it is a transference of the very foundation of election out of The freedom of the will of God into the creaturely realm. So it is a a redefining of the very concept of election itself, but secondly the the next Objection that is made.

Again, it amazes me. We are talking here about individuals. This man is a dean in the College of Southwestern Seminary and It is amazing that there could be so little knowledge of the responses to these things.

So that the question is asked in such a in such a bald fashion not to be making any comments about myself and arrogant. So that it doesn't show any acknowledgment of or knowledge of the Position being taken by the other side.

When when the question is asked if if God can elect. Without our quote-unquote receptivity in other words. What he's really saying is if God is the one who saves and it's not man who makes the ultimate decision.

Why doesn't God save everyone that really is the question that's being asked and and where have we heard that before? Well, we've we've heard that from from Dave Hunt. That was one of the first objections Dave Hunt made in our in our conversation on Kpxq a number of years ago if God could save everyone then why doesn't he?

Well, he doesn't have to I Mean, there's a fundamental problem in the thinking here. God does not have to save anyone. God does save some so that raises the whole issue of purpose in God's creation. If you admit that he does not have to save everyone anyone if you admit that it is just and right and Righteous for God to judge every man every person and I honestly question Whether many of these men if you really pushed him and you really, you know came up with some good illustrations.

I honestly question whether they would actually say that. They may say it in a surface level way, but I don't think they really believe that. I don't see how anyone who really is deeply impacted and And personally recognizes the guilt of their own sin and the rightness of God's judgment against my sin.

Who can sit there and then say well, you know really honestly if God could save everyone he really should. Those people who make the love of God his preeminent Characteristics so that justice and holiness and all these other things become just minor little blips that you just explain away over on the side.

There's no balance any longer in God's personality. I don't think they really do believe honestly that that God would be just To punish all of mankind. I don't. I Don't believe that that they really do believe that and that's what really underlies This kind of an objection.

If God could save everyone then why doesn't he well? That was a question that was addressed by a professor of mine back in college and While I do not believe he would have identified himself as a five-point Calvinist or anything else that really Wasn't the big argument when I was when I was in college he did write on the board one day something that I can still continue to use to this day and He wrote on the board three positions God could save everybody God could save nobody and God could save somebody.

There are the three positions and You we must admit that pretty well covers all the options when you think about it everybody nobody somebody and Then he asked the class he said in Which one of these three options does God have any freedom at all?

And when you think about it only one of them. Because if God saves everybody then he has no freedom in that choice. Everybody's could get saved. If God saves nobody then he has no freedom in that choice either because he's not saving anyone and only if God saves someone.

Can he have the freedom? To express Anything about his nature in that process of salvation you can't see anything about God's nature. If he saves no one you can't see anything about his grace. You can't see anything about his mercy about his love if he saves no one and if he saves everyone you cannot see Anything of his holiness.

You cannot see anything of his justice. But only if he saves some are you able to see a full-orbed picture of God's character. So those are the three options. Now, I'm not sure how many people in that class that day really saw what he was talking about.

But those are the three options that are offered and I would suggest an answer to emir canners question. That the answer lies in God's desire to reveal himself to his people and to reveal himself fully all of himself not just a Part not just one aspect but as we saw in the Exodus account and the plagues God desires to reveal his power and to and to make that known to his people.

Now, how would he be able to do that in the first two scenarios? He wouldn't. Now emir canner might respond. Oh, but you're not actually addressing my position. Because I'm not saying he's gonna save everybody.

I'm gonna say he's gonna try to save everybody. I'm not sure That everyone catches the subtle change because emir canners is act quite a position is actually less than that which my college professor presented.

What I mean by that is at least my college present professor presented in such a way. Then in each one of those choices it was God who was doing the saving.

I've got a question for you. I think it there's also a backhanded aspect of the way he's phrased it and I wonder if it isn't meant because of the God's desire to save everyone as he sees it. If God could Then he would.

Okay. So the backhanded side of that is God can't. Oh. Um, this is what God's wants to do. He wants to save everyone but he can't is.

The the foundation of his assumption and I think that they that the can't comes from. I would it I would assume that his argument would be he can't because the way he set it up. Not that he couldn't have but that it would be inconsistent with his omni benevolence.

And but again, we come at it from the John 6 perspective Romans 9 perspective and point out that. You're you're missing the whole point. Well of how God does. Well. Yes, and that's the whole the whole.

How do you determine. Because there's no such thing as God can't. I mean you didn't get into the absurd stuff, but when God does something he does it perfectly and. Again, you come back to the foundation of what you said to begin in the to begin with.

Regarding the the fallacies of what was packed into that little tiny statement very short. Yeah, well.

There there you have the first opening salvo and I think it's going to be unpacked as we continue on. But the the the interconnection between the assumption of a particular theory of omni benevolence along with the assumption of synergism.

Right off the bat here in emir canners sermon. If it didn't take a response from us.

Why did God in his sovereignty and his providence if it is? Independent of us and he would place faith inside of us and change us and we couldn't say no. Why did he do with all mankind?

Now notice he he recognizes the assertion that it is God's gift Regeneration the changing of the nature the whole nine yards and the answer to his particular objection is because God is under no obligation to save any single rebel sinner and the assumption on his part seems to be God's love is so great for every single individual that if he could he would and That's the whole point.

If that's the position why not allow for the debate thesis that I initially offered that God has a specific elect people. I Mean, isn't that what the whole thing's about? Yes, it was but we couldn't couldn't get that to work.

Does he somehow get more glory by us burning in hell?

Now there's a good question. Does he somehow get more glory by us burning in hell? Well, that's only half of the statement, isn't it? It's not that Everybody burns in hell. It is that some receive Justice for their sins and some receive mercy and grace for their sins.

Now the fact the matter is Unless he is a universalist Then he must believe that there will be people who experience God's Justice and his judgment in hell. And if God is not glorified by the expression of his justice Then what Ymir Kanner is saying is God has chosen a way in this world Where he is less glorified Than he could have been in another way.

In fact, the logical outcome of that kind of argument is that universalism would have been the greatest way of glorifying God. And I say no it would not and I also say that's why Arminianism has always tended to Universalism in the history of the past 400 years since the time of the Reformation.

There you see it right there. It may sound real neat when you preach it, but what are the practical implications and outcomes of your preaching? I Would submit to you.

That our Lord loves us enough. That he allows us to be receptive or to reject him. Yet as one author wrote not everyone agrees with this. Thomas Watson in 1692 wrote. And I quote. The spirit irradiates the mind and subdues the will.

And let's just stop for a moment. Thomas Watson Puritan Here you have the spirit Who is illuminating in mind in the will what's to be objected to in that?

The will is like a garrison which holds out against God and the spirit with sweet violence conquers or rather.

Changes it now. A man a man and I. Sweet violence. He's talking about a garrison and that is the spirit. Conquers the rebellious garrison. Even though there's no reason to do so even though there is nothing in the sinner that draws this action of God.

God powerfully. Changes rebel sinners hearts. Isn't that what the Bible says. Happens? What what how else can you describe taking out a heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh? What what what better descriptions can there be.

Is the question that I would like to ask. Well, let's see. What's in your canners objection is is that what Paul believed?

Did Paul believe somehow that the spirit? Conquered the soul and will matter who you are and how much you kicked against God that you then went with God against your will. Um.

How was Paul himself converted? It was knocked to the ground and blinded. In there something about kicking against the goads in his own conversion. He's going to kill God's people. He is the perfect example of this in Paul's own experience.

So the answer to that is yep. That's exactly what he believed because yep. That's exactly what he experienced in fact. That's that's amazing to hear the language kicking against God. Well isn't that what Paul himself was doing.

Yep.

Seems to be I would argue. There is an accountable decision as seen in this passage.

Accountable decision. No problem with that. See that's that's where once again There's an accountable decision. Yes. No question. We all agree with that. They say no no no you can't agree with that because you don't believe in free will.

No, I can't believe in that. And let me explain. Why? You see they they have this assumption, and it's the wrong assumption. They have this assumption that that sneaks into these texts and In essence says God has to free us all from slavery.

Bring us to a free moral neutral point. So we can make a free decision. That's the assumption that's being made. God is under no obligation to do that. Slaves to sin. Dead in sin. Are these not biblical phrases.

Are. Are the. Is it not the Apostle himself who in Romans 8 said that the the natural? Man the man who is dead in his trespasses of sins the man who is according to the flesh is incapable of Doing what is pleasing before God?

Incapable. Well I say oh well he just chooses not to. Yeah, that's right. He will consistently and always choose not to. That's the whole point. He will always choose that direction. That's the bend of his nature.

And unless he's freed unless that that heart of stone is taken out Heart of flesh is given. That's the way it's gonna stay. That's the way it's gonna stay. That's why it is all of God is by his doing that.

You are in Christ Jesus. First Corinthians chapter 1 says not by.

Not by hours. Paul. I'm not ready. You almost forsakenly a small measure in small part. You persuade me and then he says Paul I'm an outsider. You see the word Christian is used here as it was in Acts 11 26 as it is in 1st Peter 4 16 it is a Point to which the person saying Christian or little Christ is one who recognizes that Christians are inside and those are on the Outside.

Paul. I'm not just not ready I'm an outsider. The reason why hear me the reason why Agrippa will go to hell is not because he's a sinner But because he rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now did you catch that did you catch that? The reason Agrippa will go to hell has nothing to do with his sins. That's why I really honestly wonder if this whole generation of anti-reform Southern Baptist leaders actually believe in original sin.

I Really I I don't get the feeling that they do. It may be there in a statement of faith. It may be it might be there in in Orthodox confessions. But I don't get the feeling they believe in it. I think they've bought into the idea.

Jesus got rid of all the sin now. It's just whether you accept Jesus or not idea and He's he's gonna expand on that now. Let me just for a moment just and I hope that I don't lose this. I'm at to 2413.

Everybody help me to remember. I'm at 2413 in case I lose this and I'm gonna switch to another wave form and I want to play for you a a section a commentary Made by dr. Jack Graham. I remember I commented on Jack Graham and past presidents of the best convention vines is past president.

So that's convention good grief listen to what he says and See if we aren't right to say there just seems to be one Template out there and it doesn't get a whole lot of getting changed around. This was only for about two weeks ago.

So all this is happening all the same time. It's almost like Remember remember when Cheney was nominant was was chosen by Bush to be his vice presidential candidate and Everybody in the media for the next three days Introduced us to one word gravitas gravitas.

Everybody's using it. Well, you know, it came from one spot. You know, it was faxed around everybody. That seems to be what's going on here there seems to be some some guy in an underground bunker someplace.

Maybe it's Charles the liver hearted chicken hearted. Whatever his guy the guy's name is Charles the anonymous I am I am so utterly incapable of defending my position. I would never ever Appear before anyone because he would slice me and dice me and I would be torn apart.

And so I will just hide behind this keyboard Charles. Maybe he's the one sending out all of these faxes. I don't know, but you tell me okay. This is all within a two-week time period. Here's Jack Graham and you know, if you're judged.

The condemnation is not your sin. The condemnation is this that you reject the light. It's like if a person had some terrible disease and there was one cure and you were given that cure and Yet you rejected the one cure that would give you life if you died.

You would really not die of the disease. You would die because you rejected the cure.

Okay. Now, um, you see the connection here I'm sorry, if you got cancer and you choose not to take radiation treatments that are gonna make you glow at night You're still gonna die of cancer. It's not the non radiation treatments.

They kill you. It's the cancer for crying out loud and So here he's saying it's not your sin. No, not you. Well, what happened to your sin? The only way to substantiate this is to say well your sins already been dealt with in Jesus.

That's the only way to do that. So your unbelief becomes the only reason that you're condemned, but I thought unbelief was a sin. I Mean that the whole idea of actually having a systematic theology Here is is thrown out the window For the sake of this kinder gentler proclamation, but am I am I missing it?

Am I am I right here? Do we do we not hear this kind of a very consistent Argumentation here a very consistent argumentation and It's all based on People aren't condemned because they're sinners people are only condemned because They reject Jesus now, what then do you do with the pygmies in Africa?

What do you do with someone who's never heard? Evidently they get to go to heaven see how this all keeps taking us back. This is the foundation of universalism. These folks have no consistent basis to argue against universalism because they've cut the entire foundation out of Christian theology and the idea that man stands condemned Unless something happens and that something has to be divine Not merely human in origin.

So there you have it. There you have this this it seems to me. There's a there's a direct connection between these. I Don't know these arguments that are that are being put forward here and That's one template just sort of going around and you're not condemned for your sin you're condemned for unbelief.

Perfect justice is demonstrated in the last book of the scripture in Revelation chapter 20 in verses 11 through 15.

See if this isn't what he's arguing. Passage.

It speaks of the books that are open and the book which is open. The books are our works. Demonstrated that God is just in his punishment for he punishes us for our sin and yet the book Singular is open and those who are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life were sent to hell.

Let's stop now. That's all true. But do you see where he's missing the point? Yes, there is nothing found in their works. There is nothing found in those works because they only Condemn and so the only way to be saved from that is what the Lamb's Book of Life.

But that doesn't mean that the ground of condemnation has shifted. You see the mistake that's being made here. It's it's assuming that that first judgments irrelevant. It's been taken care of it's been removed.

It's just the opposite of what the text is actually saying by their own volition by their own.

Rejection. If the reason one goes to hell is because God doesn't elect him Then we have a problem with Revelation chapter 20.

But no one of course is saying that the reason someone goes to hell is non Election. That would be as foolish and as silly as saying that the properly condemned murderer Who goes to the used to be the electric chair now?

It's the nice. You know simple Injection of you know easy way of getting rid of somebody lethal injection, but the person who goes to the death chamber Goes to the death chamber not because of their crime not because of their conviction But because the governor didn't pardon them.

That's what we just heard preached From the pulpit of the Thomas Road Baptist Church. And I don't think we're gonna hear a bunch of people going no no no wait a minute. No uh-uh no amen to that one. That makes no sense.

The person who goes to the death chamber goes to the death chamber because Of their sin they've been rightly condemned and the governor is under no Obligation to pardon anyone because pardon must be free.

It cannot be demanded.

So we continue. Think it this way if the reason why someone goes to hell is because God decided not to give him loving Election then revelation 20 is a problem passage. Because God is not judging the one standing before him God would actually be judging himself.

All I can say is if this was what was going to be presented member. This was this was presented on the 15th. There wouldn't have been a whole lot of time in 24 hours for emir canner to learn more about this subject.

If this is the level of the objection that wouldn't have been an overly difficult to debate to engage in. Because this is basic argumentation against the fairness of God period. Let alone any serious objection against reformed theology.

My goodness. Absolutely amazing. Well, I normally would not. Stop right here, but I figure when we get a phone call from Iraq. Then it might be a good idea to go ahead and take it because that can't be cheap.

So let's uh, let's talk to Samuel over in Iraq. Hi, Samuel. Doing well, what are you doing in Iraq? I. Well, I'll tell you what, it's it's great that we reach you over there and I think all of us would have the same thing.

Stay safe. Yes, sir. Definitely. I I listen to I've been following the canner situation since it. But checked out your blog, I believe back in October. Yes, and You made a comment yesterday on the Jerry Vines sermon about a cage-stage Calvinism, and I am Probably in that same position I Came out of the Church of Christ.