Emir Caner Goes After Calvinism at TRBC

desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good afternoon, good evening, whatever time it is for you, wherever you are.

As that time thing, that's Sunday, isn't it? It seems a little hot to me. Seems much louder than normal. I don't know why.

And you're sitting there eating Domino's brownie bites.

That'll work real well when the brownie bites stuff drops into the middle of the electronic equipment there.

That'll work well, sort of like how well you're adjusting the volume right now. Anyway, yes, we let you in on the inside secrets of professional webcasting stuff.

And since we're on the cutting edge of professional webcasting stuff because we, yeah, the bleeding edge, we're normally slicing ourselves with some sort of tool we're trying to use to make something work.

It's not actually supposed to have ever been designed to do what we're trying to make it to do anyways. But that's okay.

Hey, anyways, 1 -877 -753 -3341. Stop playing with the equipment.

That doesn't go in there. No, that doesn't fit in there. That's why it sparks. In fact, when

I got to the hotel room in Long Island on Holiday Inn, you know how they have those lamps on the desk and they have an extension, a power thing in it.

Well, I started to try to put my adapter into this thing and the entire plastic adapter part simply disappeared into the base.

There's a huge pop, blue light everywhere, and then smoke.

And I'm like, oh, and the smoke didn't stop. It kept coming out of the unit.

Okay, this is like 11, 15 at night, you know, and you've just gotten soaked getting in through the rain.

Time for a new room. Almost, especially since the AC wasn't working. So it wouldn't cool down.

And when I go, being good Arizonan that I am, when I go someplace else and someone else is paying the electricity, we crank that AC down to where you can see your breath, okay?

I mean, if I get it that cold, I think it would. But they got everything fixed eventually, including replacing the lamp.

And I emphasized to the lady who picked it up, do not put this somewhere where it can be used again.

See this? And I pulled the whole thing out and said, see how it's black? That's from fire. That will kill someone, okay?

And she said, see, see, and, you know, I was going to say, what's the Spanish word for fire? I was trying to, fuego, fuego.

I think I honestly would have done better because I was very concerned that she did not understand that I was saying, it's not that I don't like it, so don't put it in another room.

You need to tell somebody in maintenance that this is like going to kill somebody. So anyway, hey,

I got it right. See, both Bart and Dave are saying that I somehow knew the right Spanish word, even though I've never taken

Spanish. Anyway, I was going to do something about Reformation Day. We're actually going to be on, on Reformation Day next

Tuesday. Probably both of us could be a little bit on the distracted side, I would imagine, at that point in time.

I'm going to be having to go and pack afterwards and things like that. But you don't need to pack as much stuff as I have to pack because you're only got a few days and I've got to do all the speaking and I've got to put suits and stuff and kilts and things like that.

If my kilt arrives, which I'm really hoping it will, I called Glasgow Scotland today and I talked to the guy, this young, this young guy named

Garrett at Mackenzie Menswear in downtown Glasgow. He was the one who who fitted me out and stuff.

And he says, but I said, I said, we said, and then

I called Pastor Jim Handyside to translate for me. But almost about half that conversation,

I honestly did not understand, but I had no problem when I was looking at him.

Isn't that weird? I could understand what he was saying when looking at him, but I couldn't understand what he was saying on the phone.

But I got enough of it translated that that it was shipped last week and so it should be here today or tomorrow.

And if by some really bad situation, it's not that I have to call them first thing Monday morning and then they got to get hold of like customs because there must be a problem somewhere.

And so anyway, I'm looking forward to that. And I'm sure everyone else on the cruise is, too.

My son just I asked him, I said, hey, you need to make sure if there's any packages at home, you'd let me know. Why? Because my kilt's supposed to arrive.

Oh, brother. He doesn't even want to look for it. He's just he just wants to crawl underneath a rock or someplace.

But anyhow, that's neither here nor there. We're just simply killing time here again. And we get people who complain when

I do that, and I honestly don't really care a whole lot that they do, but they still complain. And it's it's it takes up bandwidth.

It's eight, seven, seven, seven, five, three, three, three, four. What I did is

I took the time today to download Emir Kaner's sermon. Now, let me let me mention that I I think he needs to change the pictures on his website, because once I saw him on the video, then

I could see, yep, he's four years younger than Ergen. He does not look four years younger on his website.

I would have put him 10 years older than Ergen. And so he looked much better in the video than he did on his website, which

I don't understand. But then again, he might not be able to afford the glamour shots that Ergen did.

So is that what Botox does for you? No, no, no. I didn't. That's not fair, because as he pointed out, and I loved the banter at the beginning, even though it was a service.

And so I wasn't really certain that that was the best thing to do the service. But but the banter at the beginning was funny. You got to admit, they've obviously done this before, the two of them, because Ergen starts off talking about this wonderful, wonderful person.

And he named somebody else and says, but he's not here. So my brother's going to preach. And it was it was good. It was very good.

And then when he gets up there, he took his shots back. And it was it was it was very, very good. And one of the things he pointed out was the differences between them, including hair.

And that one, I felt the the collateral damage all the way clear over here, all the way over here, man.

Let me tell you, it was it was it was good. And once you can tell

Ergen could tell once he gave the microphone to Ymir, he knew he was in deep trouble at that point, as long as he had the microphone.

Then, OK, but once he walked away from that pulpit, he knew he had to sit there and just just take it for a while.

And he did. And it was very good natured about it. But what he's supposed to do is your brother. He's already stuck with that kind of.

But anyway, the the the brotherly banter back and forth was was quite was quite humorous.

And then for some reason, Ymir spoke on a gospel worthy to be believed out of acts.

And I had a hard time following it.

It it was I'm not really sure how to liken the whole thing.

He finally started warming up to his topic, which you would expect given the context. This was the 15th.

Isn't it ironic? The Vine sermon was on, I believe, the eighth. So a week later, you've got this major Southern Baptist churches.

And what you have is this this template and you have the same set of very, very tired, worn out phrases being repeated over and over again by individuals who you you just have a hard time not believing that these folks know that the other side has a response and it's a response that that they don't really have an answer to.

And so you just have to wonder, is it it strikes you as being a desperate side to have to be out there preaching and preaching and preaching and repeating the same things?

But you know that there are answers to what you're saying, but you don't want to talk about them and you don't want anybody else talking about them either.

That's that's the key issue there. It's it's it's it's scary. And I think it says a lot.

So. Twenty one minutes and thirty nine seconds, if you're anybody who's looking at downloading the free

MP3 from TRBC .org, I believe, twenty one minutes and thirty nine seconds in, finally,

Ymir turns to the subject at hand, which would be to to blast at Reformed theology in some way, shape or form.

And so I what I'm probably going to be doing is

I'm certainly to be taking this with me and I'll get a chance to talk with Tom later. And if I can find the time and I might, you know, while traveling or whatever,

I've got enough batteries anyways. And that that uber cool. And I need to mention this. I need to put on the blog, too.

Some of you remember, and I know some of you took advantage of this Reformation. Was it Reformation art? Yes. Reformation art dot com.

No, Renaissance art, not Reformation. Renaissance art dot com. I had contacted them because I wanted to get another cover for my for my tablet.

Remember, I put on the blog that they had made me this one and it fits the tablet as long as tablet doesn't have its keyboard along with it.

Well, that's great if you're just going like the services, just one service or something like that. But if I going to need more than one battery,

I don't have any place to carry it and have the keyboard. And I could sneak it into that with keyboard out of it is really stretching it.

And so I contacted the folks over there at Renaissance Art and I I wanted to buy another cover for my tablet because I definitely use it.

Those of you who saw me on Long Island know that that's very, very common. And they made me one and overnighted it to me and put a put a thing on it to allow for me to carry both of my extra batteries for my tablet.

And what he did, his name's Arthur. He said, look, I'm not going to charge anything for this. I just want you to test it for me.

You're going on this trip. Test it, you know, you're going to take it through the screening in and out of your luggage and do all this stuff.

Test it and let me know if this design works. He had come up with it on his own and let me know if this design works.

Will it work perfectly? Just just awesome. And so I've let him know that. And my understanding is they're going to be making these available now through You can actually order for your tablet or your

PC or whatever. Same kind of cover that I have now tested and have approved.

It has my seal of approval and it really did work well. But how did I get on that? Oh, I'm going to put this on the tablet.

Yeah, all over the place. Sometimes you just have to wander from topic to topic before you finally dig in and have to start dealing with this stuff.

But anyways, I want to put some of this. I want to put the Ergenkanner sermon on on this.

And when I'm in the airport or on the flight or whatever, I will pull some of these clips out and then

I'll see if maybe we can work some of these in when Tom and I are speaking on Thursday night, because it'll sort of give at least at least a sense of, you know, well, couldn't make the debate work, but we'll we'll let them make their statement and then we'll respond to it and and go from there.

So that I think it'll probably probably work out fairly well. So at twenty one minutes and I'm sorry, yeah, twenty one minutes and thirty nine seconds into Ymir Kanner's sermon, that really wasn't that doesn't that does include,

I think, the entire introduction by Ergenkanner. So it's really not quite that long. But anyway, we we begin with with this.

Oh, why are you calling on him, Agrippa, to make a decision?

The answer, love is never forced on anyone. It must be received.

Furthermore, if one admits somehow that election is done without our volition, without our receptivity,

I have just one further question. If God could have saved all mankind apart from man's decision, why didn't he?

Now, let's stop right there, because you have a whole lot of stuff packed right into only a matter of a few a few seconds there.

First of all, the term election is a divine act.

So how can you define election on the basis of the actions of creatures?

How can my receptivity, to use his terminology, determine

God's divine act of election? And would that not require election to be time bound or at the very least, even if it takes place in eternity past, it must be based upon a knowledge of future events.

That is not only an assertion of conditional election, but it is a transference of the very foundation of election out of the freedom of the will of God into the creaturely realm.

So it is a redefining of the very concept of election itself. But secondly, the next objection that is made, again, it amazes me.

We are talking here about individuals. This man is a dean in the College of Southwestern Seminary.

And it is amazing that there could be so little knowledge of the responses to these things so that the question is asked in such a in such a bald fashion, not to be making any comments about myself and arrogant, so that it doesn't show any acknowledgment of or knowledge of the position being taken by the other side.

When when the question is asked, if God can elect. Without our quote unquote receptivity, in other words, what he's really saying is if God is the one who saves and it's not man who makes the ultimate decision, why doesn't

God save everyone? That really is the question that's being asked. And where have we heard that before?

Well, we've we've heard that from from Dave Hunt. That was one of the first objections

Dave Hunt made in our in our conversation on KPXQ a number of years ago.

If God could save everyone, then why doesn't he? Well, he doesn't have to.

I mean, there's a fundamental problem in the thinking here. God does not have to save anyone.

God does save some. So that raises the whole issue of purpose in God's creation.

If you admit that he does not have to save everyone, anyone, if you admit that it is just and right and righteous for God to judge every man, every person, and I honestly question whether many of these men, if you really pushed them and you really came up with some good illustrations,

I honestly question whether they would actually say that. They may say it in a surface level way, but I don't think they really believe that.

I don't see how anyone who really is deeply impacted and and personally recognizes the guilt of their own sin and the rightness of God's judgment against my sin.

Who can sit there and then say, well, you know, really honestly, if God could save everyone, he really should.

Those people who make the love of God, his preeminent characteristics, so that justice and holiness and all these other things become just minor little blips that you just explain away over on the side, there's no balance any longer in God's personality.

I don't think they really do believe, honestly, that that God.

Would be just to punish all of mankind, I don't,

I don't believe that they really do believe that, and that's what really underlies this kind of an objection.

If God could save everyone, then why doesn't he? Well. That was a question that was addressed by a professor of mine back in college, and while I do not believe he would have identified himself as a five point

Calvinist or anything else, that really wasn't the big argument when I was when

I was in college. He did write on the board one day something that I can still continue to use to this day, and he wrote on the board three positions.

God could save everybody. God could save nobody. And God could save somebody.

There are the three positions, and we must admit that pretty well covers all the options when you think about it.

Everybody, nobody, somebody. And then he asked the class.

He said, in which one of these three options does

God have any freedom at all? And when you think about it.

Only one of them. Because if God saves everybody, then he has no freedom in that choice.

Everybody's could get saved. If God saves nobody, then he has no freedom in that choice either, because he's not saving anyone.

And only if God saves someone. Can he have the freedom to express anything about his nature in that process of salvation?

You can't see anything about God's nature if he saves no one. You can't see anything about his grace.

You can't see anything about his mercy, about his love if he saves no one. And if he saves everyone, you cannot see anything of his holiness.

You cannot see anything of his justice. But only if he saves some are you able to see a full orbed picture of God's character.

So those are the three options. Now, I'm not sure how many people in that class that day really saw what he was talking about, but those are the three options that are offered.

And I would suggest an answer to Ymir Kanner's question. That the answer lies in God's desire to reveal himself to his people and to reveal himself fully, all of himself, not just a part, not just one aspect.

But as we saw in the Exodus account and the plagues, God desires to reveal his power and to and to make that known to his people.

Now, how would he be able to do that in the first two scenarios? He wouldn't. Now, Ymir Kanner might respond, oh, but you're not actually addressing my position because I'm not saying he's going to save everybody.

I'm going to say he's going to try to save everybody. I'm not sure that everyone catches the subtle change because Ymir Kanner's position is actually less than that which my college professor presented.

What I mean by that is at least my college professor presented in such a way that in each one of those choices, it was

God who was doing the saving. I've got a question for you.

I think there's also a backhanded aspect of the way he's phrased it.

And I wonder if it isn't meant because of the God's desire to save everyone as he sees it.

If God could. Then he would. OK, so the backhanded side of that is

God can't. Oh, this is what God wants to do.

He wants to save everyone, but he can't is the foundation of his assumption.

And I think that the can't comes from I would I would assume that his argument would be he can't because the way he set it up, not that he couldn't have, but that it would be inconsistent with his omnibenevolence.

And but again, we come at it from the John six perspective, Romans nine perspective and point out that you're you're missing the whole point of how

God does. Well, yes. And that's the whole the whole how do you determine? Because there's no such thing as God can't.

I mean, you get into the absurd stuff, but when God does something, he does it perfectly.

And again, you come back to the foundation of what you said to begin with. Regarding the fallacies of what was packed into that little tiny statement, very short.

Yeah, well, there you have the first opening salvo, and I think it's going to be unpacked as we continue on.

But the the the interconnection between the assumption of a particular theory of omnibenevolence, along with the assumption of synergism right off the bat here in Ymir Cantor's sermon.

If it didn't take a response from us, why did God in his sovereignty, in his providence, if it is independent of us and he would place faith inside of us and change us and we couldn't say no, why did he do it with all mankind?

Now, notice he he recognizes the assertion that it is

God's gift, regeneration, the changing of the nature, the whole nine yards.

And the answer to his particular objection is because God is under no obligation to save any single rebel sinner.

And the assumption on his part seems to be God's love is so great for every single individual that if he could, he would.

And that's the whole point. If that's the position, why not allow for the debate thesis that I initially offered that God has a specific elect people?

I mean, isn't that what the whole thing's about? Yes, it was, but we couldn't couldn't get that to work.

Does he somehow get more glory by us burning in hell? Now, there's a good question.

Does he somehow get more glory by us burning in hell? Well, that's only half of the statement, isn't it?

It's not that everybody burns in hell. It is that some receive justice for their sins and some receive mercy and grace for their sins.

Now, the fact of the matter is. Unless he is a universalist. Then he must believe that there will be people who experience

God's justice and his judgment in hell. And if God is not glorified by the expression of his justice, then what

Emir Kanner is saying is God has chosen a way in this world where he is less glorified than he could have been in another way.

In fact, the logical outcome of that kind of argument is that universalism would have been the greatest way of glorifying

God. And I say, no, it would not. And I also say that's why Arminianism has always tended to universalism in the history of the past 400 years since the time of the

Reformation. There you see it right there. It may sound real neat when you preach it, but what are the practical implications and outcomes of your preaching?

I would submit to you that our Lord loves us enough that he allows us to be receptive or to reject him.

Yet, as one author wrote, not everyone agrees with this. Thomas Watson in 1692 wrote, and I quote, the spirit irradiates the mind and subdues the will.

Now, let's just stop for a moment. Thomas Watson, Puritan. Here you have the spirit who is illuminating your mind and the will.

What's to be objected to in that? The will is like a garrison which holds out against God and the spirit with sweet violence conquers or rather changes.

Now, a man, a man.

And I sweet violence, he's talking about a garrison, and that is the spirit conquers the rebellious garrison.

Even though there's no reason to do so, even though there is nothing in the center that draws this action of God, God powerfully changes rebel sinners hearts.

Isn't that what the Bible says happens? What how else can you describe taking out a heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh?

What what what better descriptions can there be is the question that I would like to ask.

Well, let's see what's in your canners. Objection is, is that what Paul believed?

Did Paul believe somehow that the spirit conquered the soul and no matter who you are and how much you kicked against God, that you then went with God against your will?

How was Paul himself converted? He was knocked to the ground and blinded.

Isn't there something about kicking against the goads in his own conversion? He's going to kill

God's people. He is the perfect example of this in Paul's own experience.

So the answer to that is, yep, that's exactly what he believed, because, yep, that's exactly what he experienced, in fact.

That's that's amazing to hear the language kicking against God. Well, isn't that what Paul himself was doing?

Yep, there seems to be. I would argue there is an accountable decision as seen in this passage.

Accountable decision. No problem with that. See, that's that's where once again. There is an accountable decision, yes.

No question. We all agree with that. They say, no, no, no, you can't agree with that because you don't believe in free will. No, I can't believe.

In that, and let me explain why. You see, they have this assumption and it's the wrong assumption.

They have this assumption that sneaks into these texts and in essence says

God has to free us all from slavery, bring us to a free moral neutral point so we can make a free decision.

That's the assumption that's being made. God is under no obligation to do that.

Slaves to sin, dead in sin. Are these not biblical phrases? Is it not the apostle himself who in Romans 8 said that the natural man, the man who is dead in his trespasses and sins, the man who is according to the flesh, is incapable of doing what is pleasing before God.

Incapable. Well, I said, oh, well, he just chooses not to. Yeah, that's right. He will consistently and always choose not to.

That's the whole point. He will always choose that direction. That's the bent of his nature.

And unless he's freed, unless that that heart of stone is taken out, heart of flesh is given.

That's the way it's going to stay. That's the way it's going to stay. That's why it is all of God is by his doing that you are in Christ Jesus.

First Corinthians chapter one says not by not by hours. Paul, I'm not ready. You almost for saving me a small measure, a small part.

You persuade me. And then he says, Paul, I'm an outsider. You see, the word Christian is used here, as it was in Acts 11, 26, as it is in first Peter four, 16.

It is a a point to which the person saying Christian or little Christ is one who recognizes that Christians are inside and those are on the outside.

Paul, I'm not just not ready. I'm an outsider. The reason why, hear me, the reason why

Agrippa will go to hell is not because he's a sinner, but because he rejected the

Lord Jesus Christ that you catch that. Did you catch that?

The reason Agrippa will go to hell has nothing to do with the sins. That's why

I really honestly wonder if this whole generation of anti -reform Southern Baptist leaders actually believe in original sin.

I really I don't get the feeling that they do. It may be there in a statement of faith, it may be it might be there in Orthodox confessions, but I don't get the feeling they believe in it.

I think they've bought into the idea. Jesus got rid of all the sin. Now, it's just whether you accept Jesus or not idea.

And he's going to expand on that. Now, let me just for a moment, just and I hope that I don't lose this.

I'm at 2413. Everybody help me to remember. I'm at 2413 in case

I lose this and I'm going to switch to another waveform and I want to play for you.

A a section, a commentary made by Dr. Jack Graham.

Now, remember, I commented on Jack Graham, past president of Southern Baptist Convention, Vines is past president of Southern Baptist Convention.

Good grief. Listen to what he says and see if we aren't right to say there just seems to be one template out there and it doesn't get a whole lot of getting changed around.

This was only for about two weeks ago. So all of this is happening all the same time. It's almost like you remember, remember when

Cheney was nominated, was chosen by Bush to be his vice presidential candidate.

And everybody in the media for the next three days introduced us to one word, gravitas, gravitas, everybody's using it.

Well, you know, it came from one spot, you know, it was faxed around everybody. That seems to be what's going on here.

There seems to be some some guy in an underground bunker someplace. Maybe it's Charles the liver hearted, chicken hearted, whatever the guy's name is.

Charles, the anonymous, I am I am so utterly incapable of defending my position. I would never, ever appear before anyone because he would slice me and dice me and I would be torn apart.

And so I will just hide behind this keyboard. Charles, maybe he's the one sending out all of these faxes.

I don't know. But you tell me, OK, this is all within a two week time period. Here's Jack Graham.

And, you know, if you're judged, the condemnation is not your sin.

The condemnation is this, that you reject the light. It's like if a person had some terrible disease and there was one cure and you were given that cure.

And yet you rejected the one cure that would give you life. If you died, you would really not die of the disease.

You would die because you rejected the cure. OK, now you see the connection here.

I'm sorry if you got cancer and you choose not to take radiation treatments that are going to make you glow at night.

You're still going to die of cancer. It's not the non radiation treatments that kill you. It's the cancer for crying out loud.

And so here he's saying it's not your sin. No, not. Well, what happened to your sin?

The only way to substantiate this is to say, well, your sins are even dealt with in Jesus. That's the only way to do that.

So your unbelief becomes the only reason that you're condemned. But I thought unbelief was a sin. I mean, the whole idea of actually having a systematic theology here is thrown out the window.

For the sake of this kinder, gentler proclamation. But am I am I missing?

Am I am I right here? Do we do we not hear this kind of a very consistent argumentation here?

A very consistent argumentation. And it's all based on people aren't condemned because they're sinners.

People are only condemned because they reject Jesus. Now, what then do you do with the pygmies in Africa?

What do you do with someone who's never heard? Evidently, they get to go to heaven.

See how this all keeps taking us back. This is the foundation of universalism.

These folks have no consistent basis to argue against universalism because they've cut the entire foundation out of Christian theology and the idea that man stands condemned unless something happens and that something has to be divine, not merely human in origin.

So there you have it, there you have this, this it seems to me there's a there's a direct connection between these,

I don't know, these arguments that are being put forward here. And that's one template just sort of going around and you're not condemned for your sin.

You're condemned for unbelief. Perfect justice is demonstrated in the last book of the scripture in Revelation, chapter 20, in verses 11 through 15.

See if this isn't what he's arguing. This passage, it speaks of the books that are open and the book which is open.

The books are our works, demonstrated that God is just in his punishment for he punishes us for our sin.

And yet the book singular is open and those who are not found in the Lamb's book of life were sent to hell.

Now stop. Now, that's all true. But do you see where he's missing the point? Yes, there is nothing found in their works.

There is nothing found in those works because they only condemn. And so the only way to be saved from that is what?

The Lamb's book of life. But that doesn't mean that the ground of condemnation has shifted.

You see the mistake that's being made here, it's assuming that that first judgment irrelevant.

It's been taken care of. It's been removed. It's just the opposite of what the text is actually saying by their own volition, by their own rejection.

If the reason one goes to hell is because God doesn't elect him, then we have a problem with Revelation chapter 20.

But no one, of course, is saying that the reason someone goes to hell is non election.

That would be as foolish and as silly as saying that the properly condemned murderer who goes to the used to be the electric chair.

Now it's the nice, simple injection of easy way of getting rid of somebody lethal injection.

But the person who goes to the death chamber. Goes to the death chamber, not because of their crime, not because of their conviction, but because the governor didn't pardon them.

That's what we just heard preached. From the pulpit of the

Thomas Road Baptist Church. And I don't think we're going to hear a bunch of people going, no, no, no, wait a minute, no, no, amen to that one.

That makes no sense. The person who goes to the death chamber goes to the death chamber because of their sin, they've been rightly condemned and the governor is under no obligation to pardon anyone because pardon must be free.

It cannot be demanded. So we continue to think it this way.

If the reason why someone goes to hell is because God decided not to give him loving election, then

Revelation 20 is a problem passage because God is not judging the one standing before him.

God would actually be judging himself. All I can say is if this was what was going to be presented, remember, this was this was presented on the 15th.

There wouldn't have been a whole lot of time in 24 hours for Ymir Kanner to learn more about this subject.

If this is the level of the objection, that wouldn't have been an overly difficult to debate, to engage in.

Because this is basic argumentation against the fairness of God, period.

Let alone any serious objection against Reformed theology. My goodness, absolutely amazing.

Well, I normally would not. Stop right here, but I figure when we get a phone call from Iraq, then it might be a good idea to go ahead and take it because that can't be cheap.

So let's let's talk to Samuel over in Iraq. Hi, Samuel. How's it going?

Doing well. What are you doing in Iraq? I work with a contract company in Iraq, and I listen to Dividing Line as much as possible whenever I can.

Well, I'll tell you what, it's it's great that we reach you over there. And I think all of us would have the same thing.

Stay safe. Yes, sir, definitely. I I listen to I've been following the

Kanner situation since I checked out your blog, I believe, back in October.

Yes. And you made a comment yesterday on the Jerry Vines. Yes, I did. I wrote a sermon about a caged stage

Calvinism, and I am probably in that same position. I came out of the Church of Christ and I was when

I found out about the doctrines of grace, I just felt like my mom and my pastors, my dad, everyone had just lied to me since I was like 13 and I didn't realize until I was 24 that I wasn't saved until that time.

And so I just wanted to attest to the fact that you described it to tea.

So maybe you looking back now, would you say you're still in that stage?

No, no, I'm I'm definitely out of it. I've actually been humbled by some good pastors. I believe you preached at my church in San Antonio.

Oh, yeah. Grace Baptist Church. Yes. Uh -huh. Yes, sir. Well, that's great. So so you look back at that time now and you sort of realize you weren't relying on the spirit and the word to make people's hearts change.

You were sort of trying to do that on your own. Yeah, exactly. And it was kind of like getting rid of the the vestiges or the hold on to our minionism.

Yeah, you know, people's minds. That's true. That's quite true. So have you had an opportunity then in a more consistent fashion to share with your family?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Actually, me and my mother have been she's still in the Church of Christ. And then we've been talking back and forth.

I tend to just go to the word over and over again instead of trying to prove the doctrines.

I just want to say, OK, here is the word. Tell me what it says to you.

And then she realizes it. And then three weeks later, she's back to what her pastor said. Oh, yes, I understand that.

But let me let me share a story with you. You may have heard on the dividing line before, but we had a we had a

Church of Christ lady come into our chat channel a number of years ago. And we

I remember the night very clearly. I talked with her about John chapter six.

I walked through the whole text with her. And and she she said, you know what,

I'm I'm going to go. I don't know how to answer what you're saying, but I'm going to go get some answers. And she would come back a couple of days later.

And her pastors had given her some commentaries. And so she'd throw that out and we'd respond to it. And she'd realized our response was consistent.

So she'd go back and get some more. And and eventually I remember her coming in one night saying,

I am very angry with you people because I am losing sleep. And I recognize that I'm not coming up with answers and I'm seeing this stuff all over the

Bible. But it's really bothering me because it's going to cost me a lot to believe this. And to make a long story short, she stuck with her guns.

In other words, she said, you know what, I have to believe what the Bible says. And it cost her friendships and positions and and everything else.

But she is in a solid church today. She's actually an administrative assistant for a very well -known reformed speaker in the

Midwest. And we see her. She pops in a channel about once a month or so and we say hi.

But she she followed through. She even though it was very painful, it was a long process.

She said, you know what, I cannot deny the word of God. I have to believe what the word of God says.

So it can happen. It doesn't happen overnight, but you you just you have to be faithful to the word.

And and God will will bless his word. So, you know, don't give up. And, you know, sometimes sometimes it's not sometimes family members, the hardest people for us to reach because they know us so well.

Sometimes sometimes you have to lay the foundation and somebody else comes in. And the thing that can be frustrating is they can say the exact same things you did, but they'll hear them when they weren't hearing you.

And I've seen that happen, you know, so you just you just trust the Lord in those matters and and leave it up to him.

OK, well, I just want to say one more thing. Yes, sir. Thank you for the book.

It's the Mormon, my brother and letters to Mormon elder really helped me deal with a yeah, help me deal with an issue that I had.

My mother in law, actually, who is a fundamental Baptist, said that being a Mormon was being in a cult. And I never really thought that.

Plus, you know, I was this is before I came to the doctrines. And then I read your two books and I was like, well,

OK, I just want to thank you for opening my eyes because I've been studying Mormonism.

But I never really got into what you opened up because just a lot of books just don't touch on it.

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, they don't get into the the actual doctrines and provide you with solid information.

They're they're more intent upon giving you sensationalistic stuff. And unfortunately, that means they're the ones that stay in print and the solid books, the ones who don't.

So it's a sad state of commentary on the publishing industry. But I'm also glad that we've been able to be of use to you.

And I'm glad that someone over in Iraq is praying for us. And we'll pray for you, too. Thank you very much.

OK, thanks, Samuel. All right. God bless. All right. Well, a phone call all the way from Iraq today.

What time is it in Iraq? Let's see. Be about twelve, fourteen hours, don't you think?

Somewhere around there. So probably about five o 'clock in the morning there. Yeah, well, OK, I guess you got to get up early in Iraq anyway.

That's that's quite quite the interesting. Pray for Samuel out there in Iraq. Keep he and all of all the other brothers and sisters of ours over there in that that difficult place safe.

Since we have another phone call, let's go to Eric in South Carolina. Hi, Eric. Hey, how are you doing?

I'm doing doing well. I was taught I have our church has quite a few missionaries over in Asia witnessing the

Muslims. And I was just one thing you find out that struck me. Now, I haven't been over there, but talking with them, one thing that strikes you real quick is that there's no reasoning in a human level with with Muslims.

And there's I suppose there's nothing man is man worldwide. But you learn real quick that salvation is totally from God there.

You can't reason with with a Muslim overseas when they're indoctrinated in their religion.

I would think that Pastor Tanner, as a Muslim, would would know that better than anyone.

Well, let's from this culture. Yeah, let's keep a couple of things in mind. First of all, you're exactly right. Outside of the work of the

Holy Spirit and breaking through the many barriers that are thrown between the truth and the

Muslim mind, especially I was lecturing on this just recently, the idea of worshiping

Christ being the act of shirk, which is the act of idolatry that is unforgivable from from the

Koran's perspective. All of those things require that the Holy Spirit of God be active in opening that that person's heart and mind.

And it needs to be, I think, emphasized. We we need to locate the the the point of contact with the

Muslim in the only place the Bible gives us. And that is that is a person who is created in the image of God.

We cannot look for some neutral point. We're not going to find it in finding that they talk about Allah and we talk about Allah or anything like that.

The connection is going to be that this is a person create the image of God and therefore any false religious system is not going to be able to give a true peace to a person who is under the convicting power of the

Holy Spirit. So first and foremost, we have to pray that the Holy Spirit of God is going to bring that convicting power to to bear or we will be, in essence, and not wasting our time because I don't believe that ever when we speak the truth, are we wasting our time?

God is glorified when his message is proclaimed, whether it's accepted or rejected. He's glorified in both those events, though that would go against what

Emir Kaner was just saying. But as it may, I just want to point something out. While both

Emir and Emir Kaner have written on Islam and they've addressed that subject, they converted as children.

Emir was 13, Emir was nine. And the fact of the matter is that happened in New York and not someplace else.

And so some people have the idea that somehow these were leaders, they were

Islamic leaders or had positions of leadership or things like that, and that they were converted.

They were converted at a very young age. We need to be careful, I think, because if if I were to encounter a

Muslim who had been converted from, quote unquote, Christianity at age nine or age 13, my first thought would not be, oh, that person really must know what they're talking about.

We wouldn't give the title of expert to someone who is converted at, you know, at that very, very young age.

And so we need to be careful that that when we address this subject, we're not putting people out there and saying, oh, they're a former

X, Y or Z when they were converted as children. If the Kaners are to be viewed as experts in Islam, their work on the subject should be the basis of their expertise, not their background, because when you're converted at that age,

OK, that means you might have more than your average person's knowledge. But we would not look at a 13 year old

Christian and say, here is someone who, if they convert, that conversion carries apologetic value.

I think I think both sides need to be very, very careful at that point, because we tend let's let's be honest with you, we tend to put a lot of weight in conversions that don't actually bear that weight.

There are people who convert and OK, so they converted. What was their level of knowledge prior to conversion?

What was their position prior to conversion? What you know, just because someone's a convert from another religion doesn't actually mean that they were in any way, shape or form an expert in that religion in the first place.

And the same in reverse. We have this tendency to take people who've one of the reasons

I'm sensitive to this is that I remember a man here in the Phoenix area, Mesa, Arizona, which used to be very heavily

LDS, still is, but not nearly in comparison to what it once was. And he, quote unquote, converted from Mormonism.

Well, immediately the churches around here threw him basically into the lion's den.

There was there was never any time for him to mature. There was never any time for him to come to understand. He immediately had to go start running around lecturing on his former religion.

Well, that's a terrible thing to do. I think you should never do that to a to a quote unquote convert from one of these other religions.

Let the person become a disciple. Let the person be grounded before doing anything about their former religion.

They don't need to be running around lecturing about their former religion or being treated as an expert in their former religion. That's not what happened, this guy.

And I don't know all the background issues, but at some point in time, he runs into the writings of Thomas Paine.

Now, Thomas Paine, of course, was a was a deist and he was an enemy of the Christian faith.

And he wrote against the Christianity. His material from our perspective today is laughable.

It's very easy to respond to. In fact, I use his materials in my apologetics classes just as an example of how to respond to these people.

But he ran that stuff and it blew him away. And as far as I know today, he is still an atheist to this very day.

He had no foundation because the church had wrongly thrown him out there as an expert and he wasn't an expert.

He shouldn't have ever been viewed as an expert. And I see that happen all the time. We have the

Hollywood idea and that we will we will actually turn people into stars if they're a convert from, quote unquote, anything, whatever it might be, whatever the hot topic is.

And so I think we need to be very transparent on that level. We need to be very careful on that level. And I think as far as the

Cantors are concerned, look at their material on the subject, not the fact that they were born as Muslims, but at a very early age were converted from that religion.

I think that's just something that needs to be put out there. And it's, you know, gave me the opportunity to mention it since you asked the question.

So, anyhow, hopefully that hopefully that's helpful. Thanks, brother. All righty, bro. Thanks a lot. God bless.

Well, we're getting lots of phone calls today, and so let's continue taking them and try to sneak one more in here and talk with Cesar.

Hi, Cesar. Hi, Dr. White. How are you? OK, fine. I had a question with regards, well, you're talking about Dr.

Cantor's sermon on Reformed Theology. And the question that I had, it's mostly to do with, well,

I guess with the past, not the one that just called, but the one before about witnessing to the family.

Yeah, the fellow that was in Iraq, Samuel. Yeah. And I'll admit

I was kind of the same way on that part the first time I heard about the doctrines of grace.

And yeah, it's a little embarrassing, but yeah, I have to admit that. I think we've all been there. We all can look back at a time when we had a little more zeal than knowledge.

Right. All right. So, yeah, explaining that to my mother, who

I'm really close to, would get really hard to when we have other families that we're really close to, also who have joined the

Oneness Pentecostal Church. Now, is it is it specifically the UPCI, the

United Pentecostal Church International? Or is it one of the sort? It's, I think it's with the apostolic branch.

I don't know if that's how separate that is. OK, well, apostolic is normally associated with a modalistic or oneness viewpoint.

And they baptize only in Jesus name, right? Right. Do they believe that speaking in tongues is necessary as a sign of salvation?

I would say for the most part, it's not I don't I don't know if it's that emphasized.

OK, but it I mean, it's certainly not, you know, OK, stigmatized. All right. So, right.

So when it comes to witnessing to, I guess, to a oneness

Pentecostalist, I mean, where having Reformed theology as your base,

I mean, how do you go exactly, you know, how do you witness to them specifically?

What do you what do you explain are the main issues of contention? Yeah, well, the main issues in dealing with anyone who's in that kind of a background, first of all, you have to determine how much they really understand of the it sounded to me, like you said, that they have recently or fairly recently become associated with this group.

Was this not their background? They weren't raised in it. Well, I mean, no, my family came from a

Roman Catholic background. OK, all right. And this was about 10 years ago when almost all of my family went to an evangelical

Baptist church and then another part of my family just branched off to one that felt like seven years ago.

OK, all right. Very briefly, because we're about out of time, let me just try to sort of summarize it here.

You're the the Reformed aspect here is simply going to going to give you confidence that as you go through this process,

God's going to honor his word one way or the other. It's not that it's going to necessarily change what you're saying, because the fundamental issues you're dealing with are not so much an issue of Calvinism as as it is that these individuals have been given a false

God and a false gospel. And so it doesn't really change anything outside of the fact that as you present who

God is, you don't have to worry about trying to soft pedal him because you can trust that the

Holy Spirit of God will make God's truth come alive and in the hearts of God's people. And so that changes things only in the sense that you can be very straightforward and open, not in the sense of not being worried about your own personality getting the way and being unnecessarily offensive, but that when you get to talking about the holiness of God and things like that, you can trust the spirit of God to apply those truths to someone's heart.

You don't have to try to soft pedal him. You don't have to try to, you know, use some sort of a mechanism to to to sneak the truth in.

You can be very straightforward and open about it, but you still need to be focused upon the same things, who God is, what the gospel is, what justification is, all the all the fundamental things that you'd normally be dealing with.

The one that's Pentecostal being a Calvinist doesn't mean that you're always just trying to beat somebody over the head with the doctrine of limited atonement or something like that.

It just means that you're going to be consistent in answering the questions and in dealing with the issues as they come up, rather than trying to appeal to them and make them the final arbiter of what

God's truth is going to be. And so, you know, the fundamental issues are going to stay the same. What the gospel is, who

God is, and the central focus upon the word of God. So, hey, drop us a line or something, or if you've got some specific questions about some of the objections they raise,

I'd like to be able to discuss those things because there's a lot of folks that really struggle in dealing with the oneness Pentecostal issue, because that can throw some curves that people aren't normally used to dealing with.

Okay. All right. All right. Thanks, Cesar. All right. God bless. All right. Great calls today. We'll continue with Ymir Kanter and Dr.

Vines and all the things that come up with that here on The Dividing Line. We will be here, Lord willing, next Tuesday.

That'll be the last one for a while. See you then. God bless. We need a new

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