Eternal Security: Reformed & Independent Baptists Discuss ***Guest Spencer Smith***

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But there's been a lot of movement toward Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism lately. I don't know if you've noticed that. And the thing that they ought to be doing is they ought to be thanking the

00:09

Baptists, because most of those people first heard about Jesus from us. Absolutely.

00:15

Absolutely. And welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

01:21

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your Calvinist. As many of you know, one of the things

01:27

I enjoy doing on the show is a bow -tie dialogue where I'll bring in representatives of other denominations and talk to them about the differences and distinctions that we have in our theologies.

01:39

But sometimes there's a really broad brush that we paint, and we talk about, well, Baptists all think this, or Lutherans all think this, or Presbyterians all think this, when there can even be some pretty important distinctions within denominations.

01:53

And so I had the idea recently that I wanted to bring in a Baptist friend who was a different flavor of Baptist.

02:03

And so I reached out to Spencer Smith, a good friend of mine who I have interacted with before, even done debate with before, and I knew that he and I had some differences.

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He is an independent Baptist, and I would fall more into the category that would be called like a

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Reformed Particular or Calvinistic Baptist. I knew we'd have some differences, and I said, Spencer, would you come on the show?

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And he agreed. So he's here with me today, and we're going to be talking about our distinctions and our agreements on theology, today focusing mostly on the doctrine of eternal security and how

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Baptists usually hold that as a pretty strong distinctive. So in a moment, I'll be bringing

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Spencer in to talk about eternal security. Hey guys, me and the other denominations want to take an opportunity to tell you about our awesome podcast partners, like our longest running partner,

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04:40

Now, let's get back to the podcast. All right, guys, I'm going to bring in my guest now. This is a man who probably needs very little introduction to many of you, because if you've watched my channel for a length of time, you know that one of the earliest things

04:55

I did on the channel was I had the opportunity to debate this man on the topic of the pre -tribulation rapture.

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And to this day, it is the debate that people still talk about, not because he and I were tremendously scholarly, but because we were both dressed like wrestlers.

05:12

Yes. Spencer Smith. Thank you for being on the show today. Amen. Thank you, man. Glad to be here.

05:18

And always glad to dress up like a wrestler. That's fun. You know what? I remember when

05:23

Brandon from Eschatology Matters reached out to me and said, hey, would you like to do a debate on the pre -tribulation rapture?

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And I said, sure. Who would I be debating? And he said, Spencer Smith. And I'd heard of you. And I said, OK. I said, you know, let's make it fun.

05:38

And he said, well, he's dressed up like he wants to dress up like Macho Man and challenge you. And you, your video, when it came out,

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I was, I was like, how am I going to top that? I showed it to my wife. She laughed so hard. I was like, there's no way

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I can top it. But I had done, I had done the

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King of the Amillennialist skit and I brought my crown. This is my Burger King crown from when I was the

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King of the Amillennialist. And I, and by the way, I look, I feel like an Eastern Orthodox priest when I put this on. So, so anyway,

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I had the crown and I said, well, there was a wrestler back in the seventies. He was known as the King, Jerry Lawler.

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He was a guy who slapped Andy Kaufman on The Tonight Show or on David Letterman. And I said, well, maybe somebody will remember that and think it's funny.

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So it was funny. And so I still get Macho Man stuff sent to me all the time.

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Uh, I preach at a church in St. Joseph, Missouri, and they gave me a bunch of Macho Man stuff. And even for Christmas, my family gave me some

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Macho Man stuff. So it was funny. It was really awesome. I see you still post pictures, selfies with your, with your glasses.

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Oh yeah. I wear those all the time. Like, absolutely. That's awesome. That's awesome. And I, I also want to ask you about a clip that I, I made a little video of when

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I was, um, when I was getting to know you, cause again, I knew of you, but I didn't know you. So I started, you know, before our debate,

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I wanted to hear what you taught. I'd asked you to send me a video on what you taught and things, but I searched you out and there was the clip of you talking about piglet.

07:12

Yes. Yeah. He piglet is an effeminate and I'm sick of piglet. I don't care about piglet.

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And, uh, so I was, I was, I was yelling in a church about sissy preachers. And I said, uh, you know, some preachers act like piglet.

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And I said, piglet needs a squat rack. And the whole church, I'm just talking about people laying in the, it was like a

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Pentecostal revival. People were laying in the floor laughing. And, uh, apparently that's one of the moments that has defined my, my ministry.

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Piglet needs a squat rack needs to be on a t -shirt. I don't know if he, I don't know if you sell apparel, if you sell like Spencer Smith t -shirts or anything like that, that my friend would sell this.

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So you would speaking of shirts, I am wearing one of my shirts, the five point Calvinist shirt just for this show.

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Cause I know that's one area we disagree on. So I thought, you know, at least people, when, when, when people see the thumbnail and it says reformed

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Baptist and independent Baptist, they'll at least know which one I am. Well, I'm wearing my Georgia bulldog shirt today for college football.

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And, and people don't know this, but this G stands for Jesus. And so that's my independent

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Baptist theology coming out right there. So if you don't like that, you're not saved. That's true. Do you live in, do you live in Georgia?

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No, I was born and raised there and I've lived a bunch of different places ever since, since, since I answered the call to preach, the

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Lord has moved me around. So, but I've lived in Kentucky for about 10 years now. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was going to say, I didn't think he lived in Georgia, but being a, being a

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Florida boy and living about an hour and a half from the university of Florida. Uh, we are, everybody around here is

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Gators, but there are those bulldogs that, that really get involved heavily on that rivalry and every year there's the

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Georgia, Florida game and everybody makes a big deal about it. So, uh, so that, uh, I I'm, I'm not much of a sports fan.

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I hate that. This is one of those times where you're going to probably call me a feminine. My wife is a bigger sports fan than me. She was a college athlete.

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She played softball. Oh, I was in the band and sang in chorus and was on the drama team.

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I was, uh, I needed a squat rack. Yeah. Yeah.

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Well, actually all through middle school, I was, uh, I was first chair, tenor saxophone, and, um, so I I'm musically inclined.

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I don't, I don't let anybody know it though. Uh, but, uh, when I got in high school, they told me, he said, you can't be in the band and play football.

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I said, well, forget it. I'm playing football. And so that's, that was the end of that. Well, see mine went the other way because the coach wanted me to play football, but I wanted to be in the band.

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He said, you can't be in the band and play football. So I went and was in the band, but, but in my, in my defense, band was where the girls were.

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So I just said, yes, yes. There were no girls on the football team. That's for sure. Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly. Well, I want to ask you, uh, because the whole heart of this idea, when

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I reached out to you and I said, Hey, would you come on the show? The heart of this idea was that we are both Baptist, but that we're not the same, and yet there's going to be things.

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We agree on things. We disagree on that. I think would help people who are learning theology, learning doctrine, um, coming to conclusions about what they believe.

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And I thought, well, some of the best ways to do that is not necessarily through debate, but through discussion.

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We just talk about how we arrive at certain things. And, um, and so I want to ask your history as a

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Baptist is, did you, were you born and raised Baptist or did you, uh, did, did

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God enlighten your eyes and bring you to the Baptist church? How, how, how did that happen? Well, I was born and raised nothing.

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Um, we never went to church, never did anything. I mean, I grew up in metro Atlanta, which, you know, in metro Atlanta, there's more

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Baptist churches and there are gas stations. And, uh, so there was, uh, there was all kinds of, there was particular

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Baptist, Southern Baptist, there were a few independent Baptist, freewheel Baptist. There, it was all over the place. Um, but, uh, you know,

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I just noticed through the years, just from watching TV, even as a kid, uh, the charismatics talked about signs and wonders.

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The Methodist talked about, uh, all their, you know, seem like rituals. Catholic talked about the rituals too, but the

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Baptist seemed to talk about Jesus a whole lot more than anybody else. And, um, and that's what initially drew me towards the

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Baptist church. But when I was 18 years old, I got saved and the Lord, uh, the Lord, uh, as, as Spurgeon said, uh, saving grace was imparted to me as an 18 year old.

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And, um, and it was at an independent Baptist church in, in Suwannee, Georgia. And, uh,

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God really changed my life. I got, I got to where I was reading the Bible. I was, um, I was listening to preaching.

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Um, and you know, it seemed like just to me that a lot of things the Baptist were saying made sense.

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And it seemed like the Baptist did a better job just taking you to the Bible and showing you what the

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Bible said and expositing scripture better than anybody else, it seemed like at the time. And, um, and I knew that God was calling me to be a

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Baptist preacher, of course. And, um, there's a couple, a couple of main reasons why I believe baptism by immersion for believers only, uh, which kind of put me a distance between me and the infant baptism crowd.

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Um, and then also, I just, I just didn't see things like Popes and Cardinals in the scriptures. I saw,

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I saw elders and deacons. And, uh, so I, I saw those were the two church offices.

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Um, and so it was stuff like that, that led me to think, you know, the Baptists have got it right.

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And, um, and you know, even, uh, even it said in the book of Acts, how that they would always break bread together and these

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Baptists were eating together all the time. So I think that's a, that's a Baptist distinctive is food, you know? And, uh, so I, I, I said that jokingly, of course, but, uh, uh, that, those were some of the things that led me to be a

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Baptist. I went to a Baptist, infant Baptist seminary in Knoxville, Tennessee called Crown College. Uh, it was there

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I met my wife and there God, you know, confirmed his call on my life to preach. Um, and then, uh,

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God called me in to do work and missions and helping national pastors there. And, uh, that's what we've been doing ever since.

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And so that's basically the short version of that. You know, it's interesting that you said, you know, uh, a lot of people talk about, uh, ceremonies and, and, and other, others talk about signs and wonders, but the

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Baptist talk about Jesus. I actually wrote something down yesterday. Um, sometimes

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I write out things and then I post them or I write out things and use them for sermons. But, um, I made this point in my little notes on my phone.

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I said, um, there's a lot of, there's been a lot of movement toward Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism lately.

13:50

I don't know if you've noticed that. And I, and, and the thing that they are, that they ought to be doing is they ought to be thanking the

13:56

Baptists because most of those people first heard about Jesus from us. Absolutely.

14:02

Absolutely. And, uh, well, I'll, I'll even go a step farther than that. I mean, there's a lot of people out there who need to write thank you notes to independent fundamental

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Baptist churches, cause that's where they got saved. And, uh, so I, I would, I would say independent fundamental

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Baptist churches have got a large number of people saved. Um, and, uh, so I would say that, but yeah,

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I mean, uh, you know, if, if you didn't have Baptists in America, you wouldn't have the first amendment. You wouldn't have a lot of the liberties, religious liberties that you enjoy.

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A little bit of Baptist history, uh, is that, you know, the, the bill of rights and constitution was, was getting ready to be signed.

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Actually it was, it was the constitution was getting ready to be signed, but there was one group that said, no, we ain't signing that, uh, on because it's dangerous and, and it was, uh, it was the group of Baptist preachers in America.

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And so Thomas Jefferson, I believe, um, uh, Adams went to him and said, what do you talk, what's the problem? They said, you know, we have no guarantee of religious liberty under that constitution.

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And they said, we'll support it. If you give us, if you amend it and give us religious liberty. And so they said, okay.

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And so the first amendment exists because Baptist pushed for it. And, uh, and so if you didn't have that,

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I mean, there's no telling what America would look like religiously right now. Sure. Absolutely. And, um, for those who don't know my background and I'll make this quick, cause

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I know, uh, uh, don't want to bore people with my history, but I did. I did want to say, you know, we've both come at this from different directions.

15:27

And part of that is because we have different backgrounds and, and I grew up in church, but I grew up in, uh, it's the same church

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I preach at now, but it's not the same church, uh, because I've been in the same church since I was seven. But we, we were, when

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I was a kid, we were part of the disciples of Christ and the disciples of Christ is actually part of the Campbellite stoneite, uh, restoration movement.

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It was, uh, the more the disciples are more liberal side of that, even though our church was conservative morally and ethically, but it was theologically, it was all over the map in 1999.

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We left the disciples and that's the same year I got saved. Not one did not cause the other.

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They just both happened to coincide. I actually got married that same year, got married, got saved. And we left the disciples. It was the trifecta of my life.

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All these things converged in that one year, two years later, uh, God called me into ministry and I started seminary.

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And I went to a, I was given the option from the church because we were no longer part of the disciples. I was given the option.

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Hey, if you want to go to seminary, we'll pay for it. Where do you want to go? And there was a local school. It was a

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Southern Baptist school. It was called Jacksonville Baptist theological seminary. And it was the only school that I could find that was local enough to where I wouldn't have to uproot my family and move somewhere else, but also it was available to somebody who didn't have an undergrad degree because at the time

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I did not, I had not gone to college yet, had not got my undergrad degree and they would let me come and do classes with them without that.

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And they actually had an undergrad program. So I did my undergrad work. I did my graduate work and all the things at the seminary.

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At the same time, I went to a secular university, got a degree in teaching. So I actually have, I do have an undergrad degree, but I did it coinciding with my time at the seminary.

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But it was through going to the seminary that I began to learn the Baptist distinctives. I was saved.

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I was a believer and I believed in many things that Baptists believed. I believed in baptism by immersion. As you said,

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I was convinced at that time of eternal security, which is what we're going to talk about in a moment. But the thing that, as you mentioned, the thing that caught my attention being at a

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Baptist seminary was how much love for the word was in those men. They were not the,

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I mean, they were not the upper echelon of scholarship or anything like that, but they loved God's word and they loved me and they taught me to love

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God's word. And, I mean, it was almost as if just every class you would hear someone talk about the inerrancy and infallibility of God's word and why this is the rock upon which we stand, this is the truth.

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And I mean, it was, you know, we had a plaque over the door of the seminary. So every time you would leave the door, it was this plaque over the seminary.

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And it was, is it 2 Timothy 2 .15, study to show thyself approved?

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Or is that verse? Yeah, it was study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need it's not, and it was in the

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King James. So you would have loved it because it was study to shoe, S H E W. Yeah, because that's how it's spelled was study to show thyself approved unto

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God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. And, and that was what they told us.

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Our job was, that was, this is your job as a minister to rightly handle this word and to, and to, and to teach it.

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And, um, and, and, and to, to, to much to what you would probably appreciate. They were not

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Calvinist, uh, the, the, the, the, the, I came to Calvinism through a, a, a friend who just began to, uh, talk to me about it, show me things about,

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I began to listen to teachers and I was moved in a different direction, but the seminary simply taught me to love the word because again, there were

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Baptists, they were Bible men, if you will. And so that's how

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I got there. Um, but again, I learned very quickly though, that not all Baptists are the same and so we've got like you, you and me,

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I would be now on the reformed Baptist side, which would mean I would hold to Calvinistic distinctives in my soteriology, you are independent

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Baptist, which, um, I think we would agree on a ton of stuff, but I am going to ask you a couple of questions, like for instance, what would you see as the biggest difference, um, between the independent

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Baptist and, uh, and let's say a Southern Baptist, not necessarily reformed or Calvinistic, but just, just a traditional

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Southern Baptist, uh, uh, who is not Calvinistic, what would you see as the distinctives between you and they?

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Okay. Well, like, uh, you want me to talk about that right now? Yeah, just, well, I mean, just a few, I'm just kind of wanting to paint a picture.

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In general, um, and this, there's exceptions to this. Um, uh,

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I would say the difference between the average independent Baptist and the average Southern Baptist would be things like Bible versions, um, ecclesiastical separation and personal separation,

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I would say that, uh, um, there's probably a lot more, what would, you know, the fundamental

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Baptist would consider more worldly type deals, um, in the Southern Baptist world.

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I, I don't know an independent Baptist in the world who thinks Christian rap is okay. Um, you know, is that a, is that a big deal?

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I honestly didn't, I, some things I'm gonna be surprised about, cause I don't know enough to not be.

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So, so, so rap is a big deal. Okay. Yeah. I mean, like raps a thing, you know, um, you know, like,

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I don't, I don't, I really don't know any independent Baptist that think, you know, guys like John Cooper are doing something that's, that's good.

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Um, whereas more Southern Baptist would be more evangelically minded and open to that. It's, it's more really a difference in methodology.

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Um, and I think on paper, doctrinally, they're very similar. Uh, but you know,

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Southern Baptist seemed to be a lot more, um, uh, open to, uh, fellowship and with people that are, you know, a little bit more liberal in their doctrine.

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I mean, I, I look at guys like Robert Jeffers, um, who just, I mean, 2019 was endorsing a book by Paula White.

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Um, and, and to me, just that would never happen with independent Baptist, uh, that I know of. So, uh, it's stuff like that.

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Um, and then I would say music, uh, Bible versions, separation from worldliness and ecclesiastical separation.

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And, um, and, and I would just say, um, it seems like in general, the independent

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Baptist put a lot heavier emphasis on personal soul winning. And that type of stuff than, than almost anybody.

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And I would say that I would make that distinction between, um, independent Baptist and some Southern Baptist. And of course they're in, in, and I'm saying that with the caveat that there are obvious exceptions to that, but I'm speaking in just vague generalities.

22:06

That's, that's the big differences that I see. Sure. And, and no, I appreciate it.

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And, and I want to say, I'm thankful that you are a friend of mine because I I'm outside of that, of, of your world.

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And yet we have, uh, we've developed a friendship and, um, so, so, so, so would they call you a liberal for hanging out with me?

22:27

Oh, I'm sure somebody probably will at some point. I mean, you know, I'm at the point now, if I, if I cross my eyes, somebody accuses me of being the

22:34

Illuminati. So I was made as well, you know? Well, I think that was your fault though. You did create the third

22:39

Adam series or is that what it's called? Um, in fact, we have a guy at our church who came to our church.

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He had met him. He was not saved. Uh, uh, he grew up as a, he actually grew up in a Jewish home and he got saved by watching, uh, somebody gave the gospel on the internet and he heard it.

22:56

And then, um, he came to our church and, and. When he came to our church, we got to talking about his background and he goes, yeah, there's this great guy online.

23:05

I love him. His name is Spencer Smith. He tells you all about all the things going on in the world. And it was the third

23:10

Adam series. Yeah. I've had a lot of fun making that by the way. Oh yeah.

23:17

Yeah. I, I, uh, I'm sure you have. And, and, and do you find that a lot of your audience comes from that sort of conspiracy minded, uh, side that they want to, they want, how much of your audience do you think that drew?

23:30

I guess is my question. I mean, a lot, but not all of it. I mean, you know, really, I don't even,

23:35

I don't even consider my work in the third Adam series be conspiratorial. It's just, uh, it's, it is a, uh, it is a examination of comparative world religions, especially the, the eschatological views of all these religions, comparing and contrasting them and coming to the conclusion, the conclusion that they're basically all the same and they have all the same views and they're going to unite and they're going to, they're going to rope in a group of Christians with them who are not saved.

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And, um, and that's it. So I don't, I don't think it's conspiratorial in nature at all. It's just a, an examination of the, the views of these religions and why they're coming together and how that there's going to be a one world, one world religion, which

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I think is obvious as their goal, and that's what they're trying to do. And, uh, they've been trying to do it for a long time now.

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Um, you can call it syncretism. You can call it pluralism. You can call it all that stuff. And, um, and warning people to stay away from it.

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That's basically it. Sure. And, and please don't think I was trying to be, you know, to, to take a shot.

24:41

I just, I know you, you joke online, like on X about lizard people and things like that, that's what

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I meant when it, you know, and he, this young man who I love to death and is still a member of our church to this day, he's a little conspiracy minded, so that's why

24:55

I was thinking of it, but, but yeah, no, I certainly wasn't trying to, uh, to disparage it or say it was just, just conspiracy theory says that wasn't my intention.

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25:33

Um, you mentioned Baptist love food. Uh, obviously that is, uh, uh, something that is a

25:39

Baptist distinctive and I know we're going to get to the internal security conversation, but before we do that, can I ask you best experience at a potluck, what is your favorite thing?

25:47

And I, and we were talking about years and years and years of enjoying these things, what's your favorite thing that you can remember from a potluck?

25:54

Well, um, I mean, there's, there's so many things that I've had that were good. I've had, there's been some sides that I've had, uh, that were amazing.

26:02

There was one with, uh, they would put these Frito corn chips into some sort of corn salad. That was amazing.

26:08

I had that in Alabama. I had to get the recipe for that. Uh, but you know, I have been to so many really bad potlucks through the years where,

26:16

I mean, it looks like, you know, just something like this is sinful that you would feed

26:22

God's people, this stuff. And, um, and so, um, a couple of months, actually it was during the summer at our church, um,

26:30

I decided I'm gonna make the food for the potluck and I smoked pork ribs and, uh, they're amazing when you smoke them and I've got some kind of pit barrel cooker and I made like seven racks of pork ribs, uh, and smoked them.

26:44

And it turned out amazing. And I think, I think everybody at our church had, um, ate all of them, like they were gone.

26:50

There were no more left. And, uh, so I like that kind of stuff. Any, any meat smoked meat.

26:56

I'm all for that. I mean, praise the Lord, but, uh, smoked chicken, smoked steaks, brisket is wonderful and amazing.

27:03

Um, and I've, I, I, no matter of fact, I think back years ago, there was a church I went to in South Carolina that I think that they, they fried probably 20 pounds of bacon for something like that.

27:16

And I was in heaven. I mean, you just pile it on, buddy. It was awesome. So yeah, that was really good. Well, I, I remember, um,

27:25

Oh, by the way, you mentioned in ribs that, that that's blessing of the new covenant right there. Enjoying that new covenant freedom. Yes, yes.

27:31

But when I remember when I was a kid and this is, this is going to take away some of my Baptist bona fides. I, my, the best experience

27:39

I ever had at a potluck was with my mother who was a member and still is a part of the holiness church, which is the, um, sometimes called congregational

27:50

Methodist. They're the Pentecostal, uh, uh, holiness. And she took me to a potluck and they had something called dirt cake and it had, uh, ground up Oreo cookies on top of a creamy cake and, and it was like a giant

28:09

Oreo cookie and I, and I, and to this day, I have looked every time I go to a potluck for somebody to have made that and, and, and, and sometimes people do, but it never tastes quite as good as it did.

28:21

Whoever that woman was 40 years ago in, you know, uh, in the small holiness church in, in Stark, Florida.

28:30

That was the best thing I ever ate. And I talked about that forever and I still talk about it 40 years later. Praise the

28:35

Lord. So, all right, my friend. Well, we were going, or we're going today to discuss the

28:42

Baptist distinctive of eternal security. You mentioned earlier that our theologies on paper would be very similar in many areas.

28:51

And when I say we, I mean, as Baptists and some people think all Baptists are the same, but there is distinctives.

28:58

And you mentioned the distinctives of being independent Baptist Bible versions, obviously typically King James only, um, ecclesiastical separation and, um, uh, high emphasis on soul winning.

29:09

But when it comes to the doctrine of eternal security or what some people refer to as once saved, always saved, that's not a phrase

29:18

I love because I think it's misunderstood, but, um, but that is how it's often described.

29:25

That is a doctrine that has consistency between the non -Calvinistic side and the

29:34

Calvinistic side. Both of us would say that if a person is truly saved, he is saved forever.

29:41

He cannot lose that salvation. And that is very much abs is repudiated by almost every other denomination.

29:53

Lutherans don't believe it. Methodists don't believe it. Uh, certainly Catholic and Eastern Orthodox don't believe it, uh, even though they wouldn't identify themselves as denominations, neither would

30:02

I. But, um, I put them in my denominational videos cause they're funny, but, but not because I think they're denominations.

30:08

Um, but across the spectrum, Pentecostals typically don't believe in once saved, always saved. It very much is a

30:14

Baptist distinctive. And that's to be honest with you. Um, well,

30:21

I would say Baptist and reform distinctive, but Calvinists believe in it as well. So you're talking about Presbyterians at that point and, and, and reformed

30:28

Anglicans and, and, and, and such as that. So it bothers me that there is so, there are so many who call themselves

30:39

Christian who do reject it. Um, I remember when, do you know who

30:44

Trent Horn is? He's a Roman Catholic apologist. He debated

30:50

James White, who I know you love. I'm just kidding. He debated

30:56

James White and they debated the subject of eternal security, once saved, always saved.

31:02

And in his debate in, in Trent Horn is a Roman Catholic debating James White, who's reformed

31:07

Baptist in the debate, he stood up and said, I am on the side of historic

31:14

Christianity and everybody in here. Who's not a Baptist or not a Calvinist agrees with me, even though you're not a

31:21

Catholic, you agree. You can lose your salvation. And I, and I felt the weight of that. I felt like, you know what?

31:27

He's kind of right. Even though I disagree, obviously disagree with his conclusions. Um, and I just want to get your thought on that.

31:34

Do you think, why do you think that is? Why do you think there's so much, uh, sort of uniqueness in this, in this one doctrine?

31:46

Well, I think that, um, you know, all heresy is a failure to rightly divide the word of God.

31:53

And essentially the term that I use is you're eating somebody else's mail. And, uh, if God says, you know, if you do this, then

32:00

I'll do this. I'll bless you with this. And, and there's conditional covenants in the Bible. And a lot of people try to, um, say that salvation is a conditional covenant upon obedience.

32:10

And I think there's a number of different reasons why they think that. I think that a lot of people believe that they look at the conditional covenants

32:17

God give to Israel in the old Testament as, you know, if you, if you obey me in this matter, you'll get this blessing and so, you know, it's kind of a trade off that way.

32:25

And they think that if you obey the Lord to the fullest with your life and get saved and get baptized and all these things, if you meet all these check marks and endure to the end or whatever, then you can eat, you can earn eternal salvation.

32:39

And, um, that essentially is a works -based salvation. I, I, it absolutely is. And, um, and I, I think a lot of people fail to really understand the gospel as a sense.

32:49

I think essentially that's what that is. Um, salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

32:55

And when you get saved, you know, you're, you're indwelt by the Holy Spirit, you're sealed by the Holy Spirit. You're adopted into the family of God.

33:02

And they think that that is conditional upon obedience. Well, that's just not, that's just not what the

33:07

Bible teaches about the gospel. That's not the grace of God at all. That is a, that is a conditional covenant that people are preaching saying that it's the gospel.

33:15

It's just not. Um, and I think that, um, I think people get mixed up by, by trying to take all these things and mix them all together.

33:24

And, and they, they, they don't rightly divide the word of truth anymore. And so that's, that's a big problem. And I think essentially that's what, what they're doing when they say that.

33:32

Okay. And, and that's interesting. You bring up the idea of, of conditional covenant, and that might be an area we can explore maybe a little bit later because, uh, we're going to talk about how we arrive at these conclusions.

33:45

Um, would I, I think I know the answer to this, but I want to ask anyway, because I would be more on what would be called a covenant theologian, even though I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm actually not,

33:57

I would be what's known as progressive covenantal, which is not classic covenantal, but in the spectrum, you've got classic covenant theology.

34:05

You've got Baptist covenant theology. You've got progressive covenantalism. And then on the other side, you tend to have your dispensational views.

34:11

You got progressive dispensationalism, traditional dispensationalism and classic dispensationalism, which I know sounds crazy.

34:16

Like there's all these different views, but there's small, minor differences. Would you consider yourself a dispensationalist?

34:24

I would consider myself a mild dispensationalist. Okay. And, uh, that's why

34:30

I like to view it. I mean, I, I, I see, I see, you know, I see progressive steps in God's plan, but at the same time,

34:39

I, I don't say that, you know, salvation in the old Testament was by works or something like that, you know?

34:45

And so I believe, you know, salvation has always been by grace through faith. And, uh, uh, you know,

34:51

I, I, I think people in the old Testament look forward. And I think people to the, in the new Testament, we look back to our salvation to Christ and, um, and so because of that,

35:01

I, I kind of classify myself as a mild dispensationalist and, um, some people, man, some people get so, so hyper, hyper, hyper dispensational.

35:10

They scare me, you know, and, uh, but I would, I would call myself a mild dispensationalist.

35:17

It's interesting what you just said about looking back to your salvation in the old Testament, looking forward. I was at a conference last weekend with Michael Horton.

35:24

I don't know if you know who he is. He's a author and scholar, uh, does the show the white horse in, which is a podcast and he was preaching and he said, um, he said when someone asked him when he got saved, he said, 2000 years ago on a

35:38

Roman cross and, and meaning, you know, he says, obviously there was something in time that happened where I came to faith.

35:44

He said, but what saved me was what Jesus did. That's, that's where I got saved. That's where the salvation took place.

35:51

And it just kind of goes with what you just said. We look back at what Christ did and the people of the old Testament look forward to what he was going to do.

35:59

Um, but with that in mind, just, just digging a little bit deeper. Um, when we talk about the doctrine of eternal security, when

36:10

I was a kid, as I said, I grew up in going with my mom to the holiness church, going with my stepmom to the disciples of Christ church.

36:17

Both of those churches repudiated eternal security. Neither one of them taught it. My, my, my, my, my mom and stepmom were sitting under preachers who both said it was wrong.

36:27

And I was in a, I was in a flowers bakery bread truck, which that was just a company flowers bakery.

36:34

I was in a flowers bakery bread truck with a man named Richard road. And Richard is a friend of mine. I, uh, he's been on the show with me before.

36:40

He's a guy who dresses as the reformed Baptist in my denominational videos. And he was the first one to talk to me about eternal security because I didn't grow up in it.

36:50

I didn't grow up around Baptist teaching. I didn't grow up around that. And, and he and I were in a bread truck and we're just talking about the

36:56

Bible. I was recently saved again. I was, uh, I saved at 19. So that I was, this was probably when

37:01

I was 21. Uh, actually I know it was when I was 21. Cause I was driving a flowers bread truck when nine 11 happened.

37:07

And that's when I was 21 in 2001. So it was around that time.

37:15

And Richard asked me, he said, do you believe, I think he just said once I bought was,

37:21

I think he just said, do you believe in once I've always said. And I said, of course not. Of course you can stop believing.

37:27

Of course you can give up Jesus. Of course you can walk away. And he just, uh, uh, did the

37:33

Southern version of lost his mind. And he just went and just started pouring out all these scriptures and pouring out this idea of God's grace and salvation.

37:43

And I remember a little bit of what he said, but not everything. I just remember feeling the weight of being hit with a high, you know, fire hydrant worth of scriptures that he just, that he just began to lay upon me.

37:56

And I had to start considering those. And so I attribute a lot of my. I understand not understanding of it, but, but my, my having been confronted by it with him and having to begin to deal with it.

38:08

And, um, do you remember, he said, you didn't grow up in church. Um, do you remember ever having a time where you didn't believe in eternal security and somebody had to show it to you, or because you sort of came in through the

38:23

Baptist, uh, uh, being sold, being one to Christ through Baptist, was that just a automatic?

38:30

You understand that? Um, you know, when I got saved, I was handed a lot of good material, like really strong doctrinal stuff.

38:38

And I just soaked it all in. I mean, there was little pamphlets people give me about, you know, what does, what does the Bible say about this, this, this, um, and there was a, there was a publication is still going today.

38:48

It's called the sword sword of the Lord. And, uh, John Rice was the editor of it.

38:53

Curtis Hudson was the editor. And I think like guy named Shelton Smith, the editor of it today. And, uh, they put out a bunch of material that talked about this type of stuff.

39:01

Why Baptist, why eternal security once saved, always saved, you know, stuff like that, and just went through the Bible and explained all that.

39:07

And I, I really, I think, um, one of the great doctrinal preachers that I listened to was Curtis Hudson and Curtis Hudson could give one of the best gospel presentations you'd ever heard.

39:18

And, um, and, and really I got, I got that stuff nailed down very quickly. And, uh, just in my own personal life, it was verses like John 10 28 that, that nailed it for me and I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

39:33

Um, and so for, for me, it was a settled issue very quickly. I never struggled with it.

39:39

I've personally, and some men, some good people have, I've never doubted my salvation. I know the Lord saved me.

39:45

I failed the Lord every day. I failed the Lord a million times in the 20 something years I've been saved, but I never have doubted my salvation and I never have felt like I've lost my salvation because I just don't scripturally don't think that's even a thing.

39:59

Okay. So, um, I know, I know John 10 is a, is, is a go -to passage.

40:05

Um, and, and obviously when I knew we were going to talk about, are there other passages, like, let's say, uh,

40:12

I know, I know you're, you're a missionary, you're not a pastor in a church, right? Or are you? No, I'm not.

40:18

I'm not pastoring a church. No, but I'm, I'm an ordained Baptist preacher and, uh, and I, you know, travel as an evangelist and preach out a lot, you know?

40:25

Okay. So if I were, let's just say, and this is why I was only asking you because I was thinking, or if you don't mind,

40:31

I'll tell a very quick story. Yeah. When I was, uh, when I was in seminary, one of my friends who was in seminary was being ordained and he asked me to come sit on his ordination council.

40:41

They actually, the seminary, uh, wanted me to come and sit in. So I, my job, uh, uh, was to ask him questions, uh, about doctrine.

40:51

And the question I asked him was if, if a man came into your church and he grew up a

40:57

Pentecostal and he, his whole life had been told, you can lose your salvation. What scriptures would you show him?

41:05

Where would you take him to show him that salvation is not something that can be lost.

41:10

And, and the guy was very shocked. The guy that had invited me, I think he was mad that I, because he wasn't ready to just go into that.

41:20

And, and, and, and I, and I said to him, I said, this is a legitimate scenario.

41:25

I think this is, you know, uh, I think as a Baptist, there's a good chance, you know, one of your little

41:30

Baptist daughters is going to meet a young Pentecostal man and you're going to have to show him what you got to talk him through, where, what he's been taught his whole life about salvation and being able to leave and walk away and lose your salvation, what does the

41:44

Bible say about that and, and so what would you say to that young man? Let's say that was your scenario.

41:50

Well, I, I've always challenged these guys. I say, okay, so you say I can, I'm saved, but I can lose my salvation if I sin.

41:57

Where is that line drawn? You know, if I have a lustful thought or I hit my thumb with a hammer and I say a dirty word, did

42:05

I lose my salvation then? Or do I have to go, do I have to go cheat on my wife to lose my salvation?

42:11

Like, where is that line drawn? And where do you find that line drawn in the scriptures? And I never get an answer on that.

42:16

Never do. Um, because, you know, I, I mean, I've had a few of them say, you know, you have to be totally obedient to the

42:24

Lord Jesus, and you have to be totally 100 % right with God all the way to the end. And I just said, well,

42:30

I guess I'm going to hell because ain't no way, ain't no way I've ever been 100 % totally obedient to the

42:36

Lord Jesus Christ in my entirety of my salvation. Um, and, and then there's some people that are like more moderate.

42:43

They say, okay, if a man commits suicide and he's saved, he commits an unpardonable sin, um, and he dies and goes to hell and I'm thinking, okay, that, that, that, first of all, that's not the unpardonable sin.

42:54

That's not the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Um, that's, but you, you're, you're taking scriptures out of context that don't actually prove your point.

43:03

You don't have a grounded, solid scriptural argument against this.

43:08

You, you just don't. Um, and I, I personally believe that there are a lot of people out there that are, um, that they use the

43:16

Bible to manipulate people and, uh, being just afraid all the time and, and, and they develop this kind of hyper religious paranoia about them and they don't have any joy in Jesus.

43:28

They don't, they don't, you know, they don't rest in the Lord. Um, they're always, you know, kind of walking, trying to walk this razor's edge of, of, of obedience, because if they fall off one way or the other, they're going to lose their salvation.

43:40

They got to get saved again. Um, that's a terrible way to live. That's not the Christian life. That's not, I just don't, and just, and, and in my coming at it,

43:49

I was a C student from North Georgia, got out of high school, got saved. I started reading the Bible. I didn't see anything like that in my

43:54

Bible. And I just, I think these people are, they've, they've had a thought put in their mind, they've been manipulated by some ecclesiastical entity.

44:05

And they think that if I, if I do this, I'm gonna lose my salvation. Or if I drink a beer, I'm gonna lose my salvation. Or I smoke a cigarette,

44:10

I'm gonna lose my salvation. Or if I, you know, look at a website I shouldn't look at, I'm gonna lose my salvation. And, and, you know, none of,

44:17

I'm not saying those things are good. I think they're terrible, horrible things to be repented of and eschewed out of your life immediately.

44:23

Uh, but they're not things that the Bible does not say that if you do certain things or you commit certain sins, you will lose your salvation, not in the new

44:32

Testament. And, uh, that's just not, that's just, I don't see anything like that at all. And so, um, there's two, there's two topics really, that really kind of helped me understand it.

44:43

One of them is the idea of being sealed by the Holy spirit. And, uh, you know, I look right here, um, uh,

44:49

Ephesians 1 13, in whom after you trusted that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and whom also, after you believe you were sealed with the

44:56

Holy spirit of promise. So I see that. And then also I see adoption. And so, you know, um, you, you are adopted into the family of God.

45:06

You were, you're made joint heirs with Jesus Christ. And I'm, I just don't see anything in any society ever in history where somebody could be taken into the family of God, adopted as a son, and then somehow unadopted.

45:21

It just doesn't make any sense to me. So those are the biblical concepts that really helped me understand that and helped me to stay solid on that.

45:30

Um, and I want to just for a moment, talk about how, how

45:36

I arrive at this conclusion, because I do obviously agree with you on, on so much, but, um, because we are talking about maybe the distinctives that we have as independent

45:46

Baptists and reformed Baptists. A lot of the passages you use, obviously I believe that there is, um, uh, a sealing that happens when the

45:55

Holy spirit, uh, makes his home in our heart, that when he indwells us, that we are sealed.

46:01

I don't believe that he departs from us. I don't believe that that is, is part of the promise of the new covenant that, that the spirit would come and then leave.

46:09

I believe he would dwell with us forever. Um, and, and in doing so seals us for the day of salvation or the day of the

46:16

Lord rather. Um, but in that, I, I want to address that part of that is because of our doctrine of, of election, and obviously

46:30

I know we're going to differ on this, but, but, um, salvation is of the

46:35

Lord and we believe it is God who opens the heart for the person to believe. We believe that the salvation, even faith itself is a gift from God.

46:43

We believe that God opens the heart to believe like he did with Lydia in the book of Acts and that when God opens the heart to believe he's doing that as, as a work on his behalf, not, not, not something that we do, but, but he does for us and, um, and in that he is providing for us the faith that is saving faith and, and, and, and in that providential act, he is giving us the ability to persevere in the faith.

47:14

And so, so this is why often in, in reform circles, instead of saying once saved, always saved or eternal security, we will say perseverance of the saints, because we do believe that a person who is saved will continue to be a believer.

47:30

And, and this is where my next question for you is if a person rejects

47:36

Christ, let's say they get saved when they're 25 and they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And let's say a year later, they, they say,

47:45

I'm, I don't want Jesus. I don't want Christianity. I don't want salvation. I don't want any of this anymore.

47:52

And I am done with it. And they depart to never return. I think, I think we could discuss somebody who departs for a season and comes back maybe differently.

48:00

But for this scenario, uh, I'll use Bart, uh, not Bart Ehrman, but, um, uh,

48:07

Oh, what's his name? Uh, uh, he he's the head of one of the largest atheist associations in the world, and he used to be a preacher, right?

48:15

Somebody like that. He's now completely rejected Jesus Christ. He's completely gone away.

48:22

What category do you find him in, in, in, in the way you understand eternal security?

48:28

Well, I, I believe people like that never were truly saved to begin with. Okay. And I would agree, but that's what

48:33

I wanted to hear. If you, if we would agree on that. Yeah. Well, see, interesting note. Um, see, before I got called to preach and before I surrendered to do the

48:42

Lord's will of my life, I was, I was going to be a policeman. I wanted, I wanted to do all that fun stuff and, uh, have, have a good time and be on cops and all that kind of fun stuff.

48:52

That'd have been awesome. Um, but here's something I learned and I learned this from a police officer friend of mine, cause he told me he could do it.

49:00

Um, it was in, it was in Festus, Missouri years ago where I used to live. And I went to church with a police officer and he told me that, um, there were a bunch of vandalisms in the area.

49:11

Like people were vandalizing cars and stealing stuff out of cars and whatever. And, um, they got a tip that it was a bunch of teenagers doing that.

49:19

Well, they, he did an investigation, found out it was this group of five boys and turns out he, he told one of them, he said,

49:26

I want you, I want to bring you in, I want to talk to you. His mom and dad made him come down to the police station. They put them in a room, you know, just a typical, you know, room where they pressure a guy and they say, you know, this happened, where were you on this date, this kind of stuff.

49:40

Okay. Well, this kid, because of the pressure that was put on him, he confessed everything.

49:46

Okay. He said, it was me. I did it. Okay. I'm sorry. Please, please forgive me. I'm sorry. You know, he, like, he just, he, he crumpled like a cheap lawn chair because of the pressure that was put on him.

49:56

And he agreed to everything. I'm sorry. You know, and, and, and it turned out he didn't do any of it, but because we pressured him to admit this, he, uh, he went along with, and the kid was like, like admitting to stuff that would have put him in jail and it's just because of the pressure that was put on him by the police officer, and I think that there are people in good meaning churches that they pressure people real hard to get saved and they work all these tactics to get people saved and they'll say, yeah.

50:26

Oh yeah. I believe in Jesus. Sure, sure, sure. And, and, you know, they may even go as far as to get baptized and even to join the church and, and that type of stuff.

50:34

And then after about a year of that, they just say, you know, okay, I'm done with this, I'm, I'm, I'm walking away.

50:40

And, and, and the reason is because they never were saved to begin with. Um, they just were pressured into that.

50:47

Um, also I'll throw out there this too, and people can go look this up, but I read an article a couple of years ago that, uh, from a divorce lawyer and it was, they said that, uh, if a marriage can survive 18 months, it can survive the entire, the entirety of their lives.

51:02

And they said, because people can pretend to be anybody for about 18 months. And so you got a young guy, he's, he puts on a face for a young girl and woos her, you know, and she's like, oh,

51:13

I'd love to marry you. And he's, he talks all this spiritual talk. Well, um, you know, you can pretend to be anybody for about 18 months and people get to that point in the 18 months into the marriage, and this is not the boy that I married.

51:24

He he's, he's taken the mask off and now he's who he really is. Um, and, and she walks out on that.

51:32

And so that, that's a pretty common thing. And that's just, that's human psychology in a nutshell.

51:37

I don't know if it's really even a theological argument, but it's a, it's human psychology, it's human behavior. People can, people can agree to anything in the right situations.

51:46

And I, I think that's why people fall down at the Benny Hinn rallies because of the psychological pressure of that.

51:53

Um, I don't think, I don't think that's Benny Hinn has some supernatural power. I just think that there's pressure on these people and they, they, they succumb to the expected behaviors that are supposed, but, but they walk away empty.

52:07

They walk away and having not really truly been transformed. And with these people, that's what

52:12

I think is happening with them. They have been pressured, they've been manipulated, they've been coerced into a certain behavior.

52:17

And at some point they just, they just said, this isn't me. And they walk away. Hello, this is

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53:18

Thank you. That's interesting. Uh, the 18 month thing, I've never heard that, but, but it certainly, uh, fits in the experience that I've had so many divorces, so many, uh, people walk away from the church, you know, and it's usually within that first 18 months.

53:34

And so this was a disagreement I had with another independent Baptist. Um, I won't mention his name, but this was a person

53:42

I had debated. Um, we talked in that debate about the parable of the soils, the four soils.

53:51

And, um, it is, I'll go first. Cause it's, it is my position that there's only one soil that's saved that, that you've got the, the, the three soils leading up to that are ones who, who are not.

54:03

And he, his contention was that there are three soils that are saved and one that is not. And, and I've heard it in various different contexts.

54:10

Uh, I've heard it. I've heard some people say there's two that's not in two that are right. You got the, um, you know, the, uh, the one who, uh, wilted away, but had no root, he wasn't saved, but the one who was caught up in the cares of the world, that was a

54:25

Christian who just got, um, uh, you know, got lost, lost the battle with the flesh kind of thing was, you know,

54:33

I've heard it that way. Um, but, but the way that I've taught it and, and, and again, you know, feel free to share your position, but the way that I've taught it is, is

54:41

Jesus is showing us that there, that, that there is only one true faith. And that's the faith that, that, that is in the fourth description.

54:48

And the other are not genuine faith, but are, are either a person who has this moment of, yay,

54:55

I want to believe in Jesus, but they have no root, right. Or the person who says they believe in Jesus, but then are immediately attracted to and won away by worldliness.

55:03

And so what would your, would you see that differently? And if so, I'm, I mean,

55:08

I'm again, just curious. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know if I've given that much thought. I will say this.

55:14

I think that there's people out there who can shipwreck their faith. Um, they can miss their, they can mess their whole life up.

55:23

Um, you know, like I, I think people can get backslid on the Lord. That's, that's a term

55:28

I had to learn when I got into a Baptist church because they use this term backslid. I didn't even know what that meant. Um, but I think a person can have a season where they get away from the

55:37

Lord in their life. And I think that, um, I think that they can, like,

55:42

I, you know, I, I remember one teenager in our youth group growing up, uh, he got away from the Lord for about five years and he came back and, and he's in church today doing very well.

55:52

Just got married, but I mean, he was doing drugs. He was, you know, hanging around wrong crowd. And when he came back to the

55:58

Lord, his mind wasn't right. Just, he just burnt some brain cells or something. And, um, and I think he,

56:05

I really, I mean, to this day, he struggles with anxiety and depression and, um, and people gotta understand you smoke marijuana, there's a chance that you could end up being, developing psychosis from that stuff.

56:19

I mean, it's, it's a legit thing. Um, and I think, I think he's lost a little bit of his mind and, um, you know, he can't, he can't function as like he used to and stuff like that.

56:30

Uh, but I don't think he lost his salvation. I think he's, um, uh, he believes in the

56:35

Lord. He's, he, he says he's saved. Um, but he just, his mind spirals and all these weird ideas.

56:42

Um, but he, he tells me, he said, he said, brother Spencer, I love the Lord. I know I'm saved, but I just, I, you know, he, and he like,

56:48

I don't even know if he really even goes to church anymore. Cause he can't stand being around people. He just, it gives him an anxiety attack.

56:54

Um, I, I, I tell you this, I think a man can lose his rewards. I think he can lose his health.

57:01

I think he can lose opportunities to do things for Jesus. I think he could lose his testimony. I think he could lose his job.

57:07

I think he could lose his marriage. I think he can lose his mind. I think he can lose his joy.

57:13

He can lose all those without losing his salvation. Okay. And that's,

57:19

I think that's what people need to understand. Now, as far, as far as the parable though, um, I'm not totally sure what

57:24

I think on that yet. But, um, you know, generally in a sense, I just tell people whatever Keith believes about that is what

57:30

I believe. Be very careful with that. I don't say that I get in a lot of trouble.

57:37

No, no. Um, I, you know, I don't know. I think I've always tended to think along the lines of you did, um, you know, if there's, if there, if the seed falls away, if there's no root, it's just a, it's a false profession and I think those are real.

57:55

And, um, so I, I think if I, I think, uh, and I'd have to think about it a little bit, but I, I do on the surface seem to think that what along the lines of what you're saying is what

58:05

I believe as well. So if I were to say, I just want to see if we would agree on this, um, because obviously there are passages in the

58:12

Bible that talk about people falling away. One of those being the parable, but another one maybe would be like Hebrew six person who's tasted the heavenly gift and then participated in the

58:21

Holy spirit and yet fallen away. And there are other passages like that. Um, uh, my doctrine of apostasy, which is the, the, obviously the, um, for those in the audience who may not know, apostasy is the, is, is falling away from the faith, my doctrine of apostasy.

58:37

And you, you kind of articulated this earlier is a person who was not genuinely born again, because I believe that the new birth regeneration is not something that can be forfeited that, that, that, that regeneration, the, the, the, the work of God, whereby he takes out our heart of stone, puts in a heart of flesh that we now trust in the

58:59

Lord Jesus Christ. We're sealed with the Holy spirit of God. I believe that is something that God does in us and, and, and, and we cannot take it away.

59:08

So therefore, if a person fully and finally, not a season of sin, like the young man you mentioned going into a season of sin, even our

59:17

Baptist confessions, the, the, the Calvinistic Baptist confession, 1689 confession, others talk about men who fall into seasons of sin, right?

59:24

A man can fall into a season of sin, but not utterly fall away, right? Like that's the idea is that they, they don't finally fall away.

59:30

I believe that that can happen, but a man who rejects Christ, rejects the word, rejects salvation, rejects everything was never saved to begin with.

59:40

And that's my doctrine of apostasy is that the man who does that has demonstrated himself to, to, to not be a believer.

59:47

And I would base that partially on the passage in first John that says they went out from us, but they were not of us for, if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out to show that they were not of us.

59:57

And, and, and would, would, would we agree on basically that? Yeah, basically that.

01:00:03

Yeah, sure. Okay. Well, I think that's good because again, not, not that we're just trying to agree on everything, but it's nice to be able to say, okay, we, we have a category for apostasy, but the category is different than others.

01:00:14

Cause others are saying a man can be genuinely born again, genuinely filled with the Holy spirit of God, genuinely a part of the family of God.

01:00:25

And then not, and that's where I just can't go there. I can't say I can't either. And, uh, and I'll throw this out there as well.

01:00:32

I think Hebrews six is a hypothetical. Okay. He's saying, he's saying that, you know, if, if a person were to fall away in this sense, then we would have to crucify

01:00:42

Jesus all over again. And so, but I think, I think once you get to the letter end of that chapter, it talks about, we have an anchor of the soul we have.

01:00:51

And so really, I personally think Hebrew six is one of the greatest texts on eternal security in the Bible. And so, um, that's something

01:00:59

I'd throw out there as well. Sure. And I've, I've heard that understanding of it. I may see it slightly different.

01:01:05

I do like the fact that right after the passage I'm talking about, he says, but we think better things of you, right?

01:01:10

Like, like he's talking about that, but then he says, but, but, but in fact, I, I, I like to read this and it is going to be in the

01:01:17

ESV. So don't, don't turn the camera off. I know you've got mercy. I'm going to lose my salvation reading this

01:01:23

ESV stuff. But, but it's, it says, um, in fact, I often argue that it

01:01:28

T that, that if it does teach that somebody can lose their salvation, then it, that it, it, it proves too much because it says it's impossible that they'd be restored under repentance.

01:01:39

I don't know anybody who believes you can lose your salvation and never get it back. I've never heard someone say that, but that's what this would be saying, because it says, for it is impossible in the case of those who, who were once enlightened, who've tasted of the heavenly gift and have shared in the

01:01:52

Holy spirit and have tasted of the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away to restore them again under repentance.

01:01:59

It says it's impossible to restore them again under repentance since they are crucifying once again, the son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt for the land that has drunk in the rain and often falls on it and produces a crop useful to those whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.

01:02:14

But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed and it's into being burned. Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things, things that belong to salvation.

01:02:28

And again, that, that to me is, he's indicating this is a different category. This is what really belongs to those who are saved.

01:02:34

And so again, just looking at it sort of from my perspective, I would say, yes, there's a category here, but the category for the genuinely saved is a different category.

01:02:45

So just my thoughts on that. All right, my brother, I want to, if it's okay with you,

01:02:52

I know we're getting close to that hour, Mark, but do you think we have enough time to talk about our Eastern Orthodox friend?

01:02:58

Yeah, let's talk about this guy. I want to, I want to talk about, he looks like the guy from the Princess Bride. Marriage.

01:03:07

Absolutely. All right. Well, this is a video that came across my, my ex feed last night and I immediately spoke out.

01:03:16

I, I, I normally don't immediately respond to stuff. I have a 48 hour rule. I don't, I normally wait 48 hours, but this guy just got my goat because he straight up says that what we, what we believe is heresy.

01:03:28

And then I don't even think he defines it very well. So, um, so let's let him speak for himself and then we will respond.

01:03:37

All right. I'm gonna give a second to cut this in and. The greatest heresy of mankind is that is within a

01:03:48

Christian umbrella would be believing you can be saved without labor, that you believe in Jesus Christ and now you're saved and nothing can happen that can make you not saved anymore.

01:03:59

There are even those who think that a person is saved without even their will, that they will be saved no matter what they do, because God has elected them.

01:04:09

There are those who believe that, but then there are others that think as soon as you make any acclamation that you have

01:04:16

Jesus in your heart, you're saved. Well, that's not how it works.

01:04:22

How it works is we believe in Jesus Christ and then we work because we must must work because our heart's dark and the love of God will not come into our heart fully until we open our heart.

01:04:37

And the only thing that opens the heart is going through tribulations with patience. Ew. All right.

01:04:46

I want to, I want to start out by simply saying, I don't know this man.

01:04:51

I don't know what personality he has or anything like that. And it's not normally my, it's not my personality to just, you know, run roughshod and get angry and, but what he is saying is specifically addressing the things we're talking about today.

01:05:10

So I don't want to talk about him as a person or, you know, anything like that. But what he said was the greatest heresy is believing that you're saved without works.

01:05:22

And, and that, I mean, that was, I don't think I'm misrepresenting him when he says the greatest heresy is to say that you're saved without works.

01:05:29

One of the doctrines that I hold dear, and I believe you do too, but I don't know if we'd articulate it the same, is the doctrine of sola fide, that man is justified by faith alone in Christ alone.

01:05:42

And we add the word alone because as you've said several times, we're saved by grace through faith. We add the word alone to indicate that we are saved by grace through faith and nothing added to that.

01:05:53

We cannot add to the work of Jesus Christ. All of our works are a by -product of our salvation, not a cause of our salvation.

01:06:03

Would you agree with that? I agree with that. Absolutely. So, so now that we've, we've got the caveat, what are your thoughts about our, uh, our

01:06:11

Eastern friend? Well, I mean, theologians have debated this as far back as I've ever read.

01:06:19

Um, faith and works. What is the balance? Does, does, you know, do you, do you get faith and then maintain it by works?

01:06:25

Or do you, uh, you know, I believe that if you have genuine faith, you'll have, you'll have works that follow, you know, show me that faith by thy works in the book of James.

01:06:35

Um, but you know, the first five verses of Romans four completely torpedo this argument this man has.

01:06:43

I mean, I'm looking at Romans four or five right here, and I'm already in my King James, so I hope you don't mind. No, no,

01:06:48

I was, I'm pulling it up, but I'll pull it up in King James too. But it, but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

01:06:58

That's Romans four or five. And even verse number three, for what sayeth the scripture, Abraham believed

01:07:03

God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. So, um, you know,

01:07:08

I, I just, that's, that's what we're, we're up against here. And, and, you know,

01:07:14

I believe that, you know, if, if you believe in the lizard people, like I'd make fun of all my, on, on my channel all the time.

01:07:22

Like, if you really believe that that's going to affect your behavior. And so if you really believe on Christ, it should affect your behavior.

01:07:30

And I think that that's, that's a, just a normal thing. I just think, I don't,

01:07:35

I don't, I don't even know if I have to get enough theology to prove that. Um, what you believe, uh, is, is demonstrated by how you behave.

01:07:43

I agree. And, and the fact that you just compared faith in Jesus to believe it in the lizard people is going to be viral.

01:07:49

I know it. Well, you know, if you believe in the lizard people, you're going to be paranoid all the time. You're going to be every time you see, you know,

01:07:56

George Bush online, you're, you know, you can be, I saw his eyes. His tongue came out and his eyes went crossed.

01:08:02

Yeah. And, uh, you know, and, and you're going to believe Michelle Obama is a lizard people and, you know, she might be.

01:08:07

And, uh, you know, just, just, you know, you're going to, that's, it's going to affect how you see the world and how you respond and behave in the world.

01:08:15

And, um, so I, I just, you know, that's just a common thing. So, um,

01:08:21

I don't, I don't know where he, I don't, I mean, to me, it's just plain as day in the Bible. This is, and there are people out there who can't do good works like the thief on the cross.

01:08:29

Show me the good works that he could have compiled before he passed away into eternity. Um, you know, you got some guy on his deathbed,

01:08:36

Diana cancer, who's, you know, got a week to live if he trusts Christ.

01:08:42

I mean, what good, what good work? He can't even get baptized. What good works is he going to do? Um, salvation is by grace through faith and believing in the

01:08:49

Lord Jesus Christ. And it's, it's a new birth. I think, um, you know, if you've got a person who says they believe in Christ, but they have no desire, no nature in them, no new nature in them that doesn't even want to do good works.

01:09:02

Um, it makes me wonder too about some of these people. So, um, but yeah, I mean, it's just plain as day.

01:09:07

I mean, I can go, I mean, I can go to Ephesians two, eight, nine for by grace, you say through faith, and that not of yourselves is the gift of God, not of works, less any man should boast.

01:09:15

And so, I mean, what do you do with that? Uh, I don't, I don't, I don't know how this argument of, um, you have to work, you have to work, you have to work.

01:09:25

Um, to, to earn in the context of earning your salvation. I don't know how you do that, but I mean, Ephesians two, eight, nine.

01:09:32

Um, even in the verse number 10, it says for, we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which

01:09:39

God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Um, I don't think that there's any good works before salvation, but I think after you,

01:09:47

I think once a person truly gets saved and is born again, I think the evidence of that on the, on the back end of that is that they will have good works and to, and to, we can debate to what degree we can debate to what that looks like, uh, but I don't think there's any debate that that's how this is framed according to the new

01:10:06

Testament. I don't, I don't think there's any debate there. Sure. And I would agree with you. That's the order of operations justified by faith and then works are the outflowing product of that, not contribute.

01:10:20

And this is where, um, a very important doctrinal distinctive lies.

01:10:25

And I want to stress this because as soon as I saw this video, I said, here's a man who rejects imputation.

01:10:33

And, and imputation is the crediting of righteousness.

01:10:39

You, you read the passage. That's what made me think of it. The, uh, the, the fact that, well, like I said, I saw the video made me think of it, but you reading the passage made me think this is where it's at in the

01:10:48

Bible because it says to us in Romans chapter four, it says, um, if Abraham had been, or if Abraham were justified by works, he hath aware of glory, but not before God for what sayeth the scripture,

01:11:01

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him. For righteousness. That's a, that's a direct quote of Genesis 15, six, where Abraham believed the

01:11:09

Lord and it was imputed unto him as righteousness, that, that word imputed to charge to one's account.

01:11:15

And this is where Paul says, um, that he has a righteousness, not of his own, which comes from the law, but a righteousness, which comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

01:11:23

This is what the reformers referred to as alien righteousness, a righteousness that comes from the outside.

01:11:29

It's not our righteousness, which comes from our works, but it's a righteousness, which comes from the outside.

01:11:34

And this is a, a very important distinctive of reformed theology is that what makes us right before God is the perfect work of Jesus Christ, not my works.

01:11:48

And therefore my works could never add to the goodness and, and, and perfection of the work of Jesus Christ in his active living, uh, according to God's law and his dying humbly on the cross to receive the punishment for my sin.

01:12:05

And, and all of that I received there. There's actually, we, we talk about a double imputation.

01:12:10

My sin is credited to him because when he's on the cross, my, he is bearing the weight of that sin and his righteousness is credited to me as a gift.

01:12:19

And now I stand before the Lord as righteous because I have been declared righteous legally, forensically by God.

01:12:31

And this is really the, this is the key for me and what makes this whole issue such an important thing is if I have been declared righteous by God based upon the righteousness of another,

01:12:42

I cannot add to that. Nope. I cannot make that better.

01:12:47

I cannot improve upon it. All I can do is rest in it and in resting in it, it will change my life.

01:12:55

And, and, and that to me is the big distinction. And I think it's a distinction that still divides.

01:13:01

Well, and I think a good illustration of that in the modern context, although it has been tainted recently as a presidential pardon, um, you know, you got a guy who may be guilty of something or may not be, um, you know, he might, he might be preemptively pardoned, but we don't.

01:13:18

Yeah. And that's why I say in modern context has been kind of tainted. Um, but, uh, you got a guy sitting on death row who did something and he's guilty of it and, you know, on the way out of president grabs a pen and just, you know, says he's guilty.

01:13:33

Let him, or he's, he's innocent. Let him go. He's, you know, we've, we've pardoned him. Um, you know,

01:13:39

I mean, is the guy terrible? Probably. Yeah. He's, is he guilty?

01:13:44

Yeah. But he's been pardoned. And in, in, in my mind, that's, that's a beautiful picture of the grace of God.

01:13:51

I I'm guilty. I deserve to die and go to hell. I deserve to die and go to hell and, and burn in the flames of hell for I deserve that, absolutely deserve that.

01:13:59

Uh, but the grace of God pardoned me and, and it wasn't because I did a good work and it wasn't because I went to church or go to Sunday and I don't feel like in a sense that I have to kind of do good works to keep that going.

01:14:13

I think that the, my pardon is full, free and forever. And now I can go and make a, make a mockery of it by getting back into sin and messing up in sin, but I've been pardoned and, and I think that's what the grace of God is.

01:14:29

I mean, I think, um, you know, the book of Philemon talks about that, how, uh, this, this slave man ran away and Paul's writes him a letter and says, you know, if he did you any wrong, put that on my account.

01:14:39

Just, just take all the guilt of him and put it on me and let him be guiltless.

01:14:45

And I think that's, that's, that's what the grace of God is. That's what the gospel is. That's got, that's God's, that's

01:14:50

God's plea to mankind received Christ to be pardoned. And, um, and you know, it, it doesn't mean that I'm a good man.

01:14:59

I don't, I don't believe I'm a good person at all. Cause I know myself. Um, it just means that I'm forgiven.

01:15:04

And then I hold that place before the Lord where no condemnation is given to me.

01:15:10

That's Romans eight. There's now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. I have, I have, there is no legal, uh, charges against me in the court of heaven.

01:15:20

I am free. I am innocent there. I have no charges. And so that's the only reason

01:15:25

I'm going to heaven. It's not because I'm good and it's not works water or wafers that did that for me. It was the

01:15:31

Lord Jesus Christ and the grace of God. That's it. And that's what we're talking about here. And once you frame it that way, I don't know how you can get to this whole, um, lose your salvation talk because my salvation was not based on my works and it's it, you know, and I can,

01:15:45

I can go do some dumb stuff. Sure. But why would I want to, it doesn't, it doesn't compute and really, you know, and what we're trying to say here is it's just not biblical.

01:15:53

You just don't find arguments like that in the pages of the Bible. Yeah. I heard,

01:15:59

I heard a really great story, um, years ago and I mentioned it a few times.

01:16:05

Um, you know, Pat preacher gets a good illustration. Him, he'll use it more than once, but it was a story of a, um, uh, a man took his son to, to England, they were on a trip and they were going to watch the changing of the guards where the guards in front of the palace, they change and it's a, it's a, it's an event and people will stand there to watch it happening.

01:16:32

Well, there was a building across the street and they, they went up in the building where they could look down at the guards and see the changing of the guard.

01:16:42

And the, and the, and the man looking through the window, he said, aren't those beautiful red jackets that the men have on, you know, they wear the big black hat and the big red jacket.

01:16:52

And he said, aren't those beautiful red jackets. And the boy said, daddy, those jackets are white. And he looked at his son.

01:16:58

He said, no son, those, you don't see the men with the red jackets. Well, he stooped down and he, what he didn't notice that is what his son was looking through a pane of glass that had a red tent.

01:17:10

And when you look through a red tinted glass, everything on the other side that is red looks white. And, and the illustration of course, is that because of the blood of Christ, God looks at us like we are white as snow and sees us where we were, where our sins were crimson.

01:17:28

They have been washed whiter than snow. And I've always loved that, that picture. And that's who we are before God.

01:17:34

We have been washed whiter than snow. So, well, brother, I've appreciated the opportunity to talk theology with you and, uh, and, and I want to ask one last question, would you be willing to do it again one day?

01:17:47

I know you and I are both busy. Yeah. Yeah. Let me know what would be led to. Well, let's ask the audience then guys, if you've enjoyed this conversation and there's another topic you'd like for us to address, maybe one we disagree on, which is fine.

01:18:00

We can do that as friends and, and, and have a conversation, leave a comment. Let us know what, what you'd like for us to do.

01:18:08

And, uh, and maybe when, as time allows and God opens the doors, we will, we'll have, uh, have an opportunity to do that again.

01:18:15

All right, Spencer, I give you the last minute to just, uh, say anything you want to say, if you want to mention your show, mention your channel, mention, uh, any books you've written or any conferences you're going to be at.

01:18:25

Let us know. Yeah. Well, just, uh, I appreciate you guys. Appreciate you brother Keith. Um, if, if anybody out there has not seen our documentary series called third

01:18:32

Adam, I want to encourage you guys to go watch those. I think, I think all Christians and all groups need to hear that.

01:18:39

Um, we've put out some pretty serious warnings about infiltration of new age into the local church. And then also we've written some books.

01:18:45

Uh, we've got one on Amazon right now called wandering stars, and that's a quote right from the book of Jude talking about false teachers.

01:18:53

And, uh, that one is on Amazon right now. You go check that out and appreciate that very much. And I appreciate you brother

01:18:59

Keith. Thank you. Well, thank you, brother Spencer. I appreciate you being on the show and I want to thank you guys for watching the show today.

01:19:06

I truly hope that this has been a blessing to you. Please reach out to us and let us know.

01:19:11

God bless you. And I need a friendly voice with some good so I mix a manly drink.

01:19:31

Then I hit the YouTube link and I feel my troubles all melt away.

01:19:40

Oh, it's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey.

01:19:49

It's and bow ties, laughs till sunrise.

01:19:56

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey. He's not like most

01:20:05

Calvinists. He's nice. Your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey, striving for superior theology and denominational unity.