Episode 89: Dr. Sam Waldron and Optimistic Amillennialism

Rural Church Podcast 2.0

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Welcome to the Ruled Church Podcast. This is my beloved son, with whom

00:05

I am well pleased. He is honored, and I get the glory. And by the way, it's even better, because you see that building in Perryville, Arkansas?

00:13

You see that one in Pechote, Mexico? Do you see that one in Tuxla, Guterres down there in Chiapas? That building has my son's name on it.

00:21

The church is not a democracy. It's a monarchy. Christ is king. You can't be

00:26

Christian without a local church. You can't do anything better than to bend your knee and bow your heart, turn from your sin and repentance, believe on the

00:37

Lord Jesus Christ, and join up with a good Bible -believing church, and spend your life serving

00:44

Jesus in a local, visible congregation. Eddie, Dr.

00:49

Waldron doesn't know it, but it's October. Is it October already? We record ahead on the

00:56

Ruled Church Podcast, so this actually comes out in October, even though today is

01:01

September 4th. Welcome to the Ruled Church Podcast. I am your co -host, Alan Nelson.

01:07

With me is Eddie Ragsdale, and then we have a special guest, as you've already heard,

01:13

Dr. Sam Waldron. I'm going to read the biography that we have for him, or the short bio that we have for him, off of Free Grace Press' website.

01:21

Dr. Sam Waldron was a pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids from 1977 to 2001, and taught at Trinity Ministerial Academy from 1981 to 1989.

01:35

Leaving there in 2001, he pursued a Ph .D. at Southern Seminary in Louisville, having served as pastor of Heritage Baptist Church in Owensboro, Kentucky, from 2005 to 2013.

01:47

In 2013, he became one of the pastors of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky.

01:53

He also serves as president and professor of systematic theology of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary.

02:00

Sam has been married to his dear wife, Charlene, since 1975. They have five children, and at last count, 15 grandchildren, all of whom they love very much.

02:10

Sam enjoys reading, weightlifting, walking, and spending time with his wife, children, and grandchildren.

02:16

Did that cover it, Dr. Waldron? Well, yeah, that's really up to date. It certainly is.

02:21

Still hanging your 15 grandchildren, and everything else there is correct, and I appreciate that.

02:29

Yeah, we're still with Grace Reformed Baptist Church and Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary, and joining our labors for them.

02:37

Yes, and that seminary is doing some great, great work, and we're appreciative of that, to see a resurgence, as it were, of, we say

02:47

Reformed Baptist, maybe if I may say Biblical, if that's not too disparaging, teaching, and we're grateful to see that.

02:56

Eddie, I'm not sure, I was just going to share, I was trying to remember, Dr. Waldron, when I first became aware of you and your teaching, it was a number of years ago,

03:05

I know, but probably the first thing I became familiar with was you're pretty well -known for, too, is your commentary on the

03:15

Second London Baptist Confession. I think it's, is it like six editions now, or has it gone?

03:21

Yeah, it's in the fifth edition, and one of these days I hope to do a sixth edition of it.

03:30

And, but I got a number of other writing projects I've got to get through before I can do that one.

03:38

I understand, that's great. I know that it's been a tremendous blessing to me over the years, listening to your podcast, your teaching, listening to or reading your books.

03:54

Your book on the Regulative Principle, I don't have that in front of me right now, but that's an excellent work, and I commend that.

04:03

And we were, last year we came to the conference in, oh, what city was that held in, outside of Louisville?

04:11

Yeah, LaGrange, Kentucky. That's right, that's right, LaGrange. We brought some brothers up there, and we had a really, a really great time.

04:20

Eddie, anything you want to say in regards to that? No, just that I remember,

04:26

I think I first ran on to Dr. Waldron, some of your interactions with some other brothers over some other topics, and so I think that's where I first was introduced to you and to your ministry.

04:42

The book that I didn't mention and that I've read and working through is

04:50

The End Times Made Simple. You're known for your position on amillennialism.

04:56

We've invited you on the podcast today to talk about the subject of amillennialism, but also particularly the new book that you have coming out, and I think it's okay to announce it, because we announced it last week when we were talking, didn't we,

05:12

Eddie? That's right, but that hasn't come out yet either. Yeah, but the new book with Free Grace Press, and the name of that book is what,

05:19

Dr. Waldron? It's The Doctrine of Last Things, An Optimistic Amillennial Viewpoint.

05:26

So the question then, the first question I have for you, is why another book on eschatology?

05:33

Well, that's a great question, but the answer is that there's a lot of discussion going on these days about eschatology.

05:43

I don't have what I think is any kind of novel viewpoint about it, but what

05:50

I'm concerned to do in this book is give more of a systematic treatment of the whole subject of The Doctrine of Last Things.

05:59

It really is substantially my two courses on eschatology that I teach at the seminary, and so I've wanted to get the entirety of my course in one book, and I'm looking forward to it coming out, and I want to couch it as an optimistic amillennial viewpoint and let people know at the outset where I'm coming from.

06:25

Now, I don't have access, or I'm sure I don't have pulled up the most recent edit, but the document

06:33

I have pulled up is 153 ,759 words.

06:41

That's a big book. Yeah, it is. Here's the reason. You mentioned

06:47

End Times Made Simple in your notes to me. End Times Made Simple was actually about half of what was then my eschatology course back in around 2005, but the publisher wasn't willing to give anybody my entire course, and so he suggested the contents of End Times Made Simple in order to get the book published.

07:13

I said, that's fine. We'll go with that. A few years later, I actually published a book called

07:18

More of the End Times Made Simple, which gave a lot of the rest of my course to people, and so that's what's happening now.

07:28

I'm trying to get End Times Made Simple, the best parts of More of the End Times Made Simple, and some of the things

07:35

I wrote in the book entitled MacArthur's Millennial Manifesto, a friendly response.

07:42

I'm trying to put all of the things that are in those different books together in one book in order to give people the benefit of my entire teaching on the subject.

07:54

Well, it's something I anticipate greatly. I've had the opportunity to look over some of it, and I'm very grateful for that.

08:02

Do we have a date? I don't know if we have a date yet for release. Well, my assistant and I have been working diligently to go through the edits that Free Grace Press has given to us.

08:17

We're just at the end of responding to those edits. I'm really hopeful they'll get out by the end of the year, but I don't have a firm date yet from the folks at Free Grace Press.

08:29

We could be optimistic about it, right? Yes, okay.

08:35

Yes, we could be optimistic about it. Well, all right. I'm sorry. That's my jokes.

08:44

So speaking of eschatology, then, this really is kind of a silly question, but is eschatology optional?

08:53

And what I think about that is sometimes you hear the joke about people that just say, well,

08:58

I'm pan -millennial. I don't really care. It'll all pan out in the end. So I just wanted to pose that question to you.

09:06

Is eschatology optional? Well, you might not be surprised to hear me say this, but I'm not pan -millennial.

09:13

But here's the thing. One of the things that I'm really excited about this book coming out is

09:19

I get into the subject in a little different way than I did in my other books.

09:24

And I do that by asking right at the outset, is eschatology optional?

09:30

And I argue that it is not, that there is a core of eschatological teaching that people must believe in order to be

09:40

Christians. That is to say there is an orthodox core of teaching that everyone must believe.

09:48

And I argue for that in several ways in my opening chapter. But that orthodox core has to do with the second coming of Christ in glory.

10:00

It has to do with the resurrection of the dead. It has to do with the coming judgment. And I argue that though there are many things that we may disagree about as Christians, we must hold those things in order to be

10:15

Christians. Yes, sir. And if someone does hold those things, and I do teach that the four major Christian eschatological views do, in one way or the other, teach all of those things, then we ought to treat each other as Christians in the way we discuss these things and not be failing to give our brothers in Christ the courtesy that they are due as Christians.

10:48

Now, that doesn't mean that these issues that we disagree about are unimportant, but it does mean that we ought to disagree with courtesy and with biblical respect with our brothers in Christ if they hold the orthodox core.

11:09

Yeah, that's very good and encouraging. And you've already mentioned Dr. MacArthur, and I appreciate even your title of that book,

11:18

A Friendly Response. I think I've told our church, and I don't certainly have no qualms publicly saying how much

11:25

I'm appreciative of Dr. John MacArthur and his stance for truth, and really a dear brother, but we certainly disagree on eschatological matters.

11:38

And I think you've pretty much answered that question. Can we find agreement with those who differ on eschatological matters?

11:44

And I think the answer is not only should we, but we must as believers in Christ.

11:51

Yeah, I think so. And we've got to keep in mind, does this person we're talking with hold the orthodox core?

12:01

And if they do, then let's treat them as Christians. Let's be respectful. That doesn't mean that the different views of the second coming and the tribulation or of the millennium and the second coming are unimportant.

12:14

It only means that we should treat those other views respectfully.

12:20

At the same time, however, one of the things I say in this opening chapter is our very disagreement about these issues kind of points to our basic core agreement with our brothers in Christ in that it shows that we do agree in the midst of all the disagreement about the second coming and the tribulation, whether you think it's mid -tribulational or post -tribulational or pre -tribulational or pre -rep, all of those views agree about something, and that is that Christ is coming again.

12:57

Similarly, amillennialism, postmillennialism, and premillennialism, although they differ in important respects and practical respects from one another, they all agree that Christ is coming again.

13:10

And that's the point I try to make, that logically, when you analyze the great disagreements in eschatology, there is this orthodox core that we all agree about.

13:21

Amen. I'm so thankful to hear about that emphasis on the orthodox core.

13:29

I know that there's been somewhat of a resurgence of hyper -preterism or whatever term we might want to use.

13:38

And so the importance of, I almost sometimes feel like I can hear almost more vehement disagreements between orthodox believers because you've got a dispensationalist and then maybe a postmillennialist in the way they'll attack each other when they're actually both agreeing on those core issues, even though they're holding substantive differences on very important things.

14:09

Yeah. And one of the things I have to say, I don't say it happily, but I say it sadly,

14:15

I think both the liberalism, which denies the supernatural character of biblical eschatology and the second coming of Christ, and hyper -preterism, which because of its viewpoints also denies a future glorious second coming of Christ, both of them fall outside the orthodox

14:35

Christianity and can't be treated as Christian.

14:41

That's sobering, but that's the truth. Well, Dr. Waldron, I know you're a longtime listener, right, of the

14:51

Rural Church Podcast? No, this is called the Rural Church Podcast. So kind of our target, both

14:57

Eddie and I, we pastor rural churches, and we just have discussions about things that we feel like are maybe more pertinent to rural churches and kind of the life of a rural church.

15:11

So this question, with that background, the question kind of leads in that direction. Practically, I think of pastors, some of them bivocational pastors.

15:21

They're pastoring their people. They're pastoring these not necessarily small, maybe small, but rural churches.

15:29

Practically, what would your counsel be to them on how can they teach their people eschatology?

15:36

Well, I'm sure there are many ways to respond to that question, but here's the thing that struck me.

15:42

One of the things I try to do in End Times Made Simple and in the book that's coming out,

15:48

The Doctrine of Last Things, is I try to build biblical eschatology on great central truths of the

15:54

Scriptures. I try to make the point that our eschatological views don't need to be based, ought not to be based, on the intricacies of the interpretation of the

16:06

Book of Daniel or the Book of Revelation, but upon the great central truths of the Word of God. So I think as a pastor goes through the

16:14

Bible and preaches expositorily, he's going to come again and again up against these great truths of the

16:22

Word of God that have enormous eschatological implications, truths like the two -age structure of New Testament eschatology, this age and the age to come.

16:34

He's going to come again and again to the doctrine of the general judgment. He's going to come to the doctrine of the coming of the kingdom of God, and as he preaches expositorily through Scripture, he's going to address those issues and the implications of those issues eschatologically.

16:53

In many cases, it's going to be very clear, and I think that's one way of addressing and teaching eschatology.

17:01

I'm not saying I'm opposed to what you're doing right now, teaching eschatology on Wednesday nights at a service like that, or even in Sunday school or someplace else.

17:13

I'm only saying that I think even as he preaches through the

17:18

Bible and sometimes maybe even taking more topically certain truths of the

17:25

Bible about eschatology and teaching them, that this is the way that he can teach his people the great truths of eschatology, because eschatology isn't confined to the fuzzy difficulties of the book of Daniel or Revelation.

17:45

Eschatology runs through the Bible as a whole, and as we preach the Bible, it's going to inevitably come up again and again and again.

17:53

I think that's good. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but a number of years ago I read Richard Barcellos' book,

18:00

Getting the Garden Right, and just a well -done explanation of the beginning.

18:09

It's important to get the beginning right. And eschatology, I know it's the doctrine of the last things, but it's not just confined to the end of the book.

18:17

It runs through the Scriptures. Absolutely, and Dr. Barcellos in that book defends,

18:25

I think, Gerhardtus Voss' statement, which basically says that eschatology in the

18:31

Bible precedes esoteriology. And I agree with Barcellos about that, because there is an eschatology taught in the biblical doctrine of the garden and of the covenant of words.

18:44

There's already eschatology before there's any need for the doctrine of salvation.

18:51

And our understanding of eschatology really grows out of a purpose of God that's there in the beginning of the world and even before the fall.

19:02

Wow, that's very good and very, very helpful. Anything you want to follow up with that,

19:07

Eddie? Yeah, one quick thing, Dr. Waldron. So in thinking about as pastors teaching our people, we know that our culture for a century, more than a century, has been steeped in especially dispensational premillennialism.

19:27

So what advice would you give to pastors who are probably standing before congregations and they're introducing what are going to seem like completely foreign or new concepts?

19:41

And so what advice would you give to pastors, maybe about the best way to go about that without getting fired?

19:50

The best way to go about it, you know, that's going to be actually helpful to their people to be able to receive what they're hearing from the

19:58

Scripture. I think one of the things I say in End Times Made Simple is that we need a gospel eschatology.

20:05

Yeah, that's good. An eschatology that grows out of our understanding of the gospel.

20:10

And so it seems to me that as we teach our people the gospel, we're going to also be teaching them the wrongness of views like the carnal

20:23

Christian theory and easy -believism and the false view of eternal security.

20:29

And one of the key things that we have to address is the really unbiblical theory of pre -tribulationism.

20:40

And I really do think that pre -tribulationism can only stand because of false views of the gospel that we have in our day.

20:51

Because the notion that the church is going to be delivered from the tribulation, that Christ's church won't have to go through the tribulation, really implies something that goes very contrary to gospel truths that are clearly taught in the

21:07

New Testament. And that is that if we're going to enter the kingdom, it's going to be through much tribulation.

21:17

And the implication of pre -tribulationism, that Christians are in some way going to be spared that, has to really be stood against.

21:30

And the plain teaching of the Bible again and again and again and again is against the notion of the implications of the pre -tribulational theory.

21:42

Yeah, that's good. So shifting to the other side then, so this is really anecdotal.

21:48

A number of years ago, I felt like a lot of interactions was with dispensationalism.

21:55

Now it seems like I have a lot of interactions, not in the church, not in this local church per se, maybe one or two, but there's been a revival of sorts of post -millennialism among Reformed brothers.

22:07

And would you just mention maybe any positives or negatives that you see with the resurgence of post -millennialism?

22:15

Well, yeah, I do think the positive thing is that post -millennialism and non -millennialism both agree that pre -millennialism, the notion that there is a future millennium after Christ comes back, is a system of thought that is deeply unbiblical and that is based on the misinterpretation of a single passage in the book of Revelation, at least when you're looking at the

22:43

New Testament evidence. So when you think about that, I'm glad to say that we agree about the false view of pre -millennialism and that we agree that it can't stand the test of New Testament light.

23:04

Now having said that, I think we have to also say that in that way, and I say this and in times very simple, that in one sense, non -millennialism is a form of post -millennialism, right?

23:23

Because both view Christ coming back as after the millennium that's taught in Revelation 20.

23:32

Now that isn't to erase all the differences between the two things. It's only to admit that there is a sense in which non -millennialism is post -millennial.

23:42

But that brings us to another issue, and that is what you mean by millennium.

23:49

I try to teach people that I don't mind the term non -millennial. Some people don't like that terminology because it says no millennium.

24:00

But the actual question here is what do we mean by a millennium?

24:06

And the fact is that people mean a couple of different things by it. That the word can mean, and it usually does mean or connote in the way it's used, a great golden age in the history of the world of peace, righteousness, and prosperity.

24:24

That, however, is limited in its scope and time.

24:29

If that's what people mean by millennium, then

24:35

I'm happy to say that I'm a non -millennialist. I don't believe in any such millennium.

24:40

On the other hand, millennium simply means a thousand years. Do I believe in a thousand years?

24:47

Yes, I do. It's right there in Revelation 20. I don't interpret it as a great golden age of righteousness, peace, and prosperity, but I do believe in it.

24:56

So, in that sense, I'm happy to say that people like to talk about realized millennialism or something like that.

25:05

I'm happy to say that's what I am. Now, the point is this. Non -millennialists are non -millennialists because they don't believe in this great golden age of righteousness, peace, and prosperity before Christ comes back.

25:16

And that theory, which is the real heart of post -millennialism, systematically speaking, or systematic post -millennialism, is something that's highly problematic.

25:29

And it's highly problematic for a number of different reasons. First of all, that theory that there's this great golden age of righteousness, peace, and prosperity before Christ comes back, that theory requires us to say that many of the things that the

25:46

New Testament teaches about our experience in the world during this age are no longer going to be true during that period of time.

25:53

That it's no longer going to be true that we cannot be conformed to this age, because the age is going to become righteous.

26:02

It's no longer going to be true that Christians are going to experience persecution in the world because there's going to be this great age of righteousness, peace, and prosperity.

26:12

And I argued this in Times Made Simple, and I argued it again in Doctrine of the

26:18

Last Things. And so, there's this danger of really dating the

26:27

New Testament and saying that what the New Testament says about Christian experience in this age is no longer going to be true during the millennium.

26:34

I think that's a pretty dangerous idea. The other thing that I think is problematic is that any kind of systematic post -millennialism that holds a future golden age of righteousness, peace, and prosperity has to at some point and in some way admit that this present age is really bifurcated into two different periods of time.

27:03

That kind of bifurcation of the interadventural period, the period between Christ's first and second coming, is really just, frankly, alien to the

27:15

New Testament. So, the New Testament really looks at this gospel age as being a single thing and doesn't hold out the idea of a transition from a troubled and persecuted church during the first part of the golden age and that transitioning to a triumphant and ruling church in the world at the end of this gospel age.

27:49

That kind of notion is just not there in the New Testament. So, now, the fact of the matter is, though, that in many respects,

27:59

I think, modern non -millennialists and modern post -millennialists have kind of been recognizing some of these things.

28:08

If you read some of the post -millennialists, they're trying to get away from these implications.

28:14

I don't think they're doing it successfully, but they're trying to get away from the implication of a bifurcated age because they recognize how problematic that is.

28:27

And, on the other hand, I want to, in my optimistic on millennialism, say that there are things that we should be optimistic about.

28:37

To put it in a thumbnail or in a brief kind of statement, I usually say that I'm optimistic about the church but not optimistic about the world.

28:47

That's good. And that's my optimistic on millennialism.

28:52

I think that passages like Matthew 16, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

29:00

Parables like the parable of the mustard seed teach us that we ought to expect, look forward to, work for, and we will see realized a global planning of the church of Jesus Christ.

29:13

Amen. And that global planning of the church of Jesus Christ assumes a lot of different things.

29:19

It assumes, for one thing, that God's going to protect and preserve His church through this age.

29:25

It assumes that the church is going to, that there will be times of gospel harvest, that it's not necessarily true that the great times of revival are behind us.

29:36

And it assumes that throughout the world, there's going to be a true church planted. And I think the

29:42

New Testament is pretty clear about that. In fact, I think it's very clear about that. And so I think there's a good reason then to hope in the gospel of Christ and for the success of the gospel of Christ and labor for the building of the church of Jesus Christ, which

30:00

Christ promised is going to happen. And so in that way, I'm willing to say there is something we can be optimistic about.

30:09

And it's the preservation of Christ's church in the world, the way in which

30:15

God is going to continue to put down and restrain the mystery of iniquity so that the church will be built, and the fact that God's church is going to be planted throughout the world.

30:28

And I think this gives tremendous hope and optimism to a person whose heart and mind is in the right place, and that's in the growth of the church of Jesus Christ.

30:39

If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that we have every reason to be hopeful for the success and the growth of the church and the proclamation of the gospel, even as it goes into new cultures and new places all around the globe, even though we're not holding out this hope for this unified age of peace and prosperity.

31:09

But we can be hopeful for that kind of revival and renewal and gospel success as we send out missionaries and preach the good news.

31:19

Absolutely, and I think that is a tremendously important perspective, optimistic perspective to have to keep us laboring on, because, of course, amillennialism also says that the whole process won't be easy, and we're not going to get to this place where we're going to be able to see the gospel go forward without opposition.

31:44

There will always be opposition, but we have the hope that that opposition cannot finally defeat the church of Jesus Christ.

31:55

The gates of Hades will not prevail against us. Amen. Amen. Well, if you're interested in more, obviously you can go,

32:04

I would say, one place, freegracepress .com. You can sign up for the emails there, and Lord willing, by the time this episode comes out,

32:12

October, so maybe it's only another month or two, and this book will come out,

32:17

The Doctrine of the Last Things, an optimistic – what's the subtitle again? I don't have it pulled up.

32:23

An Optimistic Amillennial View. An Optimistic Amillennial View. Well, it's been tremendously helpful to me,

32:29

Dr. Waldron, and Edifine, I hope it has to our listeners. Is there anything that, before we go, that you'd like to mention just about the seminary?

32:38

I know the conference, again, I believe the conference is in Birmingham this year, is that right?

32:44

It's in Montgomery, Alabama. Oh, Montgomery, okay. And we're excited to be there, and it'll be on the subject of the law of God, and some of the highlights will be that Dr.

33:00

Joe Beakey will be with us. Also, Dr. Tom Hicks will be with us, speaking on the subject of general equity theonomy and our opposition to that viewpoint.

33:13

Dr. Hicks and I are also working on a book together called Theonomy Old and New, which

33:19

I'm hopeful that G3 will be putting out. I have a verbal commitment from Scott O 'Neill over there to publish

33:28

Theonomy Old and New. We're taking an assessment of theonomy I did many years ago and then adding to it

33:38

Dr. Hicks' critiques of the more modern or newer theonomy, general equity theonomy, and we're looking at it in that way.

33:49

So I hope that that'll be out sometime by the end of the year as well. We're just now finishing up the editing on that book.

33:56

Well, that's wonderful. You are a gift to the Church. We're grateful for the Lord using you, and we know all glory goes to God.

34:05

But I know I've been helped, and I hope our listeners have been helped, and we look forward to this book coming out because I would say

34:12

I want to buy a copy for every person in our church, but this thing's going to be big, so I may have to do that in piecemeal.

34:19

But I'm looking forward to that, Dr. Waldron. Yeah, it'll be 400 or 500 pages,

34:26

I think. Yes, sir. Eddie, do you have anything else? Only that Dr.

34:32

Waldron may have to come back on with us and have the discussion about theonomy because I'm ready to ask him some questions about that.

34:40

Honestly, it's a much -needed. We've just for a long time, I say we, maybe

34:45

I'm talking about maybe brothers kind of in our camp, all millennial, we for a long time have let these things kind of encroach without a good answer back maybe.

34:55

And so I'm very grateful to have some of this coming out. Praise the Lord. I hope it's helpful.

35:01

Amen. Thank you, brothers. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening to the Rural Church Podcast. We'll catch you next week.

35:08

See you guys next week. If you really believe the church is the building, the church is the house, the church is what

35:25

God's doing, this is His work. If we really believe what Ephesians says, we are the poemos, the masterpiece of God.