Apologia Church, Jeff Durbin, JD Hall, and “the Controversy”

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:31

Greetings and welcome to The Divine Line. My name is James White and today a program that we have announced for quite some time

00:39

I'm joined in studio by Pastor Jeff Durbin. Jeff good to see you here. Thank you,

00:44

Dr. White. It's a stop meeting like this I'm always in here under like well The last time we were wearing coogies and so most people will actually probably find this significantly

00:54

Yes, people will watch this and not be so offended. This is true. This is well, you know Let's not go there

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It may be an issue of Christian Liberty to be able to wear a coogie There's some some people are offended.

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I think you're just promoting Coogee Calvinism Coogee Calvinism, that's right Anyway, you know,

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I want to start off with a text of scripture and just ask you why you don't believe this pursue peace with all men and tan hagyos man the numeric standard says the sanctification but most people know that hagyos man means the

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The holiness without which no one will see the Lord and I've been seeing a lot of stuff recently

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Online that this is not something that that you you believe in. So I've just got to ask you

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What's what's what's the problem with Hebrews 12 14? Yeah, let me address that directly. I did talk a bit about this on last week's episode of apology or radio people can get it at apology or radio .com

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and So if they want a fuller explanation, they can get there, but we are a confessional church.

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We are That kind of church that believes that the doctrines of grace and the substance of Calvinism the reformed faith

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Is something that should really affect all areas of your life whether it is an apologetics whether it is in The hospital room whether it's at the deathbed

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It should really impact the addiction facility the addiction facility Counseling you name it.

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We think it should impact all areas of your life And we're also very committed to the fact that when Jesus saves somebody he saves a whole person and he saves them to the end and that God's predestining us in Romans chapter 8 is to be predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ and so the work that God begins in our lives

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Of salvation is is obviously God foreknows us. He predestines us.

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He justified it calls us justifies us. He glorifies us within that work is God's Intention to transform sinners into the image of Jesus Christ to look like Jesus to pursue holiness to be like Jesus Christ to abandon sin to abandon self -righteousness

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And so the believers life we have always taught for seven years as a church plant

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Is to be set apart for God we're to live to the glory of God. We're to put down our idols we're supposed to live lives as believers that Express the glory and holiness of Jesus Christ.

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And so we are committed to the fact and we've taught on This I can't imagine that it hasn't been virtually every weekend to the fact that if you are not

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Being sanctified if your life is not the narrow road It's not expressed by that identified by that if you are not on that path of sanctification

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To holiness then you will not see God and you don't know Jesus Christ because the work that God does in a person is

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The work that involves a removal of a stony heart to a fleshly heart It's a work that actually takes a person from spiritual death and hostility towards God and the things of God and it

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It's it's a work where he raises them to newness of life and they're to mortify to put to death

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What is earthly in us and which includes idolatry sexual morality and things like that now?

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as a Hipster Seeker friendly church, how do you how do you put those messages together?

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Yeah, I think one of the most difficult things in the midst of this is to see the caricature.

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Yeah, that's That's being presented of me of apology a church and and Did you pull the clip?

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I have you do you have a sales talking about that? So I have for a long long time repudiated the local problem we have here in Phoenix of So so -called reformed churches that are reformed, but it's sort of a click you join

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It's a culture you're a part of and yes There are some of those movements where Calvinism is essentially seen as this cultural thing and it is hipster and it is the brew your own beer sort of a thing and There's no commitment to the doctrines of grace.

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No commitment to the propagation of the truths of the reformed faith. No consistency No bold proclamation of these things.

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No Firming up and defending these truths proclaiming them heralding them again defending them

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There's just sort of this is a really cool click and whoever imagined we talked with us earlier Whoever imagined that Calvinism would be seen as sexy and it can't last

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There's no it will never last and and I have repudiated this for years and I have fought against it locally the idea that that defines

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Calvinism or that this current cultural like Vision should be the identification of what is reformed or Calvinism.

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I've spoken about it for years I've done battle. We both and at three I gave you a clip of three years ago me speaking on this very issue

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It was it was March of 2013 You ready for that rich? Alrighty, here we go.

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But I want to just say this The transformation of the world that Jesus is accomplishing is gradual mustard seed to large tree growth

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That tree grows by means of the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom Not politically not by reinventing the church not by reinventing the gospel conversation and not by easing into a soft -boiled

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Hipster Christianity that offers little more than indie music Lessons and tasty strains of hops and a true lack of a sense of urgency to repent and believe the gospel

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Christ shall have dominion we must not alter the message in the urgency of its proclamation for the sake of having

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Christian swagger and Lots of people who think we're just like them So This has been something that when when

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I've heard JD brother Hall Speak about a hipster Christianity and this stuff defining

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Calvinism. It resonates with me Which which makes me feel like brother you've shot in the wrong direction big time

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Because that's something that I have been opposed to for a very very long time And in terms of being a seeker friendly church where this is that this is a church service an apology

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And I'll just say briefly. No. No, I you come into church and We we make sure there there is a psalm a full psalm read at the beginning of service

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We as part of service go through the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith as we do a catechism

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Our church is memorizing questions and answers from the catechism with passages of Scripture We have a message that's at minimum an hour long

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We're a family integrated church where we have kids all over the place crying in church and screaming and we have we have kids that were saved from abortion and abortion clinics running around in front of the in front of the pulpit and Distracting people as we're doing service.

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We have about a two -hour minimum service every single Sunday We have in a in a megachurch in Yeah, you know your own megachurch.

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We rent space from a big church we only have about 200 people at Apologia Church and We've grown slowly as a church and I gotta say this

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Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're you're following the all the proper parameters for church growth stuff What people need to hear is this and I and I'm not always transparent about this

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I don't just always wear this my sleeve and tell everyone what's going on. But years ago we were asked to participate and join a large

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Baptist denomination They offered us money For a building they offered us all kinds of wonderful things

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They were going to essentially help us as a church that was really struggling financially and I even spent a week away with my wife being assessed by church planners and leaders and got a hundred percent approval no

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Qualifications you are 100 % qualified on and on and on and on but what they wanted us to do to be part of their denomination

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Was to do things that would have appealed to Carnal things and so we actually decided to suffer as a church and and suffer as families to go without even food if necessary So that to us so as to avoid any carnal means of attracting the world or being a seeker friendly church

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We rejected it Early on it was said that that wouldn't be a part of what was going on and then it became that and then we ended

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Up as a church saying everybody it's a change of mind here. We're turning away from that We won't do it because of what's being asked of us

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So we've been opposed to those sorts of things for the longest time And again what this one makes it difficult

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I think is to hear some of the things that are said is is it becomes a caricature and you wonder Where to come from what church is that?

09:59

Yeah. Yeah, there's no question about it Let's talk just a little bit more you you emphasized

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Your focus upon sanctification holiness But how can

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How can that be squared with? Well, look if Anyone's ever seen you preaching

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Well that you got that and then you've got Someday, I'm just gonna take you out shopping

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I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get you any bow ties. I would not work with that beard. It would be because I was

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I was looking at I was looking at that camera angle right there and to me You you've got the

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Stonewall Jackson thing going, you know, yeah, that's right. No. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's Stonewall Jackson right there

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Let us cross over to that side and rest in the shade of the trees. Well, I said right as he's dying So, okay. I don't want to go there with that.

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Yeah, but You don't you don't look like I look like right what

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I'm preaching right so a lot of people really do judge by the external looks right and They look at Luke.

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They look at you They listen to the program where you guys have fun. Yeah, and you have music and Entertaining commercials and they just they don't associate that with someone who would be doing and teaching and saying the things that You say you're saying now

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I happen to know that that's what you're doing because as has been pointed out my daughter and son -in -law are part of your church, and so I I know the amount of energy

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It takes to go to your church Especially when you have real little ones that don't want to do that for two hours.

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That's right. That's right Okay, so Yeah, I I look different maybe

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I can you know, someone could take this or not There has never been an effort on my part to create a culture around Me and my personal likes or dislikes and it's never been a topic of discussion.

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It's never been something we've tried to do as a church You know if you listen to Apologia Radio and you hear us cutting up and laughing and telling jokes is because we're

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I You know, I think this can maybe end up hurting me because people go well You should be just always be serious and never never laugh because you're talking about serious things and theology

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And when we do talk about those things, we are very serious But then we have moments or we just we talk about what's going on in our lives

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And we've just wanted to not be pretentious and we've wanted to sort of be honest and not put a face on and some people that irritates them and some people get it and We've never built the show around what somebody else

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What they should perceive we just we've built a show where we want to bring glory to God We want to have a great time on the show and we want to be full of joy

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And that's what we do and there's nothing really within us even as a conversation of Let's promote this style of clothing as a matter of fact that I mentioned it last week in Apologia Radio You don't have a style of clothing.

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No, that's the thing too is I do pick what's available I have I am far more associated.

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Yeah Yeah, then you are you are Coogee Calvinism So Yeah, and and the truth is is and I feel it feels weird honestly having to talk about this

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But when I when I purchase a style of clothing, it's sometimes it's just what's available Oh, that's a cheap shirt And that's a cheap pair of pants at the second -hand clothes store that I usually shop at but if you do if you do come to Apologia Church And this is one of the difficulties with listening to some of the claims that have been made if you come to Apologia Church You might be kind of weirded out because we have a group of women at Apologia Church that are under the conviction of the head

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Covering movement. Okay, it's not that's not the you know, Apologia Church leadership promoting, you know saying that's our view

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But there are women who have that conviction and they're allowed to do that and they're allowed to do that I don't want to have them go against their own conscience and So we'd have it looks it looks like old school like we have head covering going on with our church and we have people at our church that come dressed up fancy and we have a lot of older people at our church that come dressed up and and polo shirts and khakis and we have people that Pastor Luke wears what he wears and I wear what

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I wear And it's just never been something we've identified as this is the culture of our church if somebody said something like well

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What do you do about all the soccer moms at your church that don't look like you? Answer we have those

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And there's nothing within our church that actually identifies that as a problem

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We actually you know You don't have a vibe or a brand you're attempting to promulgate when you come to Apologia Church if you walked in it would look like any other

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Suburban Arizona Church service with the difference of we do have people at our church that have gauges and tattoos

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That have come to Christ in the last four or five years That have come out of a context of this current culture and they have a particular style to their dress

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We've never said to them. Hey, you're in Jesus now. You need to put on some different pants

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Because unless there's a modesty unless there's a modesty issue if there isn't and we have addressed modesty issues

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Because people come to our church that are unchurched that come to Christ We have to say hey, that's not an appropriate thing for a woman to wear and worship or really ever

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And we need to talk about that And cancer maybe yeah Yeah, and so so we do have these discussions in terms of what is appropriate for a believer who's pursuing holiness

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But I have never said well, you're a believer now So you're not allowed to wear torn jeans, you know or something like that because I believe that's ultimately not biblical to place a

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Culturally accepted norm and say well, you know us now wear this to really be a faithful follower of Jesus Christ What we have told people is you need to live a life of repentance and trust in Jesus Christ You need to live a life of pursuit of sanctification.

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You need to be accountable You need to be under the leadership and authority of your local elders and you need to be under their care we are a church that actually early on had to do church discipline more times than I even imagined what happened we had about eight instances of church discipline in the first two years because it was a brand new church out of a drug and alcohol rehab new believers some of them in deep struggles some of them false believers and we had to do church discipline one night twice on two different people and we have exercised church discipline on people for pursuing an

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Idol for living a life of drunkenness. We've actually brought them before the church now praise

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God Some of those people have come back and are living that lives that are renewed That are not seeped in idolatry in a pursuit of something in place of God But that's that's been our mo as a church now

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One of the one of the issues is that there needs to be a discussion about holiness sanctification and the relationship to Christian freedom and liberty.

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Mm -hmm I'm not gonna ask you to repeat everything that was said on The program that you did

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I wasn't a week ago today. Yeah, we feel yeah we go today You went through a lot of those issues you discussed all those issues especially

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The strong stance you take against drunkenness. Yes But likewise the fact that you are convicted that you cannot

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Bind upon the conscience of people a demand for abstinence. That's right the interface between freedom and responsibility

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Responsibility I think we need to make a distinction between What other people think you should be doing and what is actually right before God, right?

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at that point because I think that's a lot of the issue here is There are gonna be churches that are not gonna be comfortable doing

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The things that you do the way that you do it In fact to be honest with you, there's gonna be a lot of churches that would not be comfortable having some of the people come that you would be comfortable having come right, however, you don't look at the church as Some big open door just any any any old you you view it as the gathering of the body

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That's the believers as believers for for worship. That's right. Sure It's important worship on the

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Lord's Day That's about God's people if you I said this last week if you're an unbeliever

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Entering into a worship service and you can hang with it for weeks and weeks on end. I think something's wrong with the preaching

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And so it is a function for the the body of Christ for believers and not for unbelievers and trying to attract unbelievers

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Through carnal means and trying to give out a certain vibe or look a certain way Is something that how can

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I say I repudiate that I I I I keep scorn upon it I hate it

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I despise that idea of doing something like that because that is not pointing people to Christ and to Their sin and need for repentance and faith and we just don't think about it.

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It's not something that we do Are there people that do that? Yeah, there are people that do that and I speak out against that as well

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But in terms of the alcohol issue, this is big this was hard for us it was really difficult for us early on We never planned on planning a church

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I never had a vision of planning a church in my life I wanted to be a pastor and serve God's people and teach

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I was a pastor at a rehab people were coming to Christ The elders of the church I was at said laid hands on me.

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We went this church came out of nothing it was a beautiful thing, but we struggled because Now you have a lot of people that have now turned away from this idol their addiction their lifelong pursuit and glory in the substance above God right and so now

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Alcohol is is this person's whole life, you know 36 beers a day, you know you have people that are shooting up heroin and now they've turned to Christ and But people now are being sanctified and they're now hearts changed and their view has changed.

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Everything's different now They love Jesus now, they ask questions. They go. I mean, I you know, I have to attend this

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AA group It's part of my my court thing I have to go to a groups and they'll say You know pastor Jeff they saying in a that you're once an addict always an addict that that's your identity

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You have the brain disease of addiction and I'm contradicting it at every turn right say the issue of the heart. It's a sin issue

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Yes, there's physical issues but deal with this issue first It's about repentance and faith and accountability all these different things, but then it asks questions like this well

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They're teaching an AA Total abstinence like it's like it's evil substance and you're an addict and you have the disease and so you can't ever put it in Your mouth again well,

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Jesus made wine at a wedding and Jesus gave wine and Communion and I see all those references to wine in the

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Bible that are being used in positive ways So, how do I view this? So we had to try to be as consistent with God's Word as possible to say

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Your pursuit of this is sin. It's an idol right now. You're still warring against it You need accountability here breathe into this breathalyzer.

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That's what we were literally doing, but we would also say No, God doesn't call wine or beer or alcohol sin.

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He actually does speak about it in glowing terms He actually if you look in the

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Old Testament in a Deuteronomy chapter 16 They're told to rejoice and drink in his presence If you look in the

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Old Testament, you see that in Exodus 29 40 wine is used as part of the ritual You see that in 1st

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Chronicles chapter 9 29 Wine alcoholic wine was actually a part of the temple supplies

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You see in Deuteronomy 14 that God's people are actually told to This is really interesting actually in Deuteronomy 14.

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They have wine as their tithe. Oh, yeah Shani the second the second tithe. Yeah.

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Yeah, they have it as part of their tithe and yet God says, okay Well, if this is the distance is too far for you, you take your wine.

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That's alcoholic wine. He says turn it into capital turn your wine into money and Then take that money and when you get to the place that's appointed for the celebration

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You can buy whatever your heart desires their wine or strong drink or all the animals He says when you get to the place of this of the celebration

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So in that instance, God is actually telling people that the wine you use as your tithe Turn it into capital and use it to go buy more wine for the celebration

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So we couldn't in good conscience before God and these people say

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Well, hey you struggle with addiction So therefore I need to start finding a way to actually turn you away from the substance from the bible

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So what I needed to do as a pastor is say here's what the bible teaches about alcohol Here's what it is in in use in a sinful way

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Jesus does have wine on the table. Um, there's lots of stuff about drunkenness That and that was the final thing is the bible says

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If you practice Such things drunkenness debauchery all these things

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Then you will not inherit the kingdom of god And so what our our our focus was on these people that were given to us is to care for their souls to give them what

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The bible says it wouldn't have been easier though to take the normal route and just simply

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Don't touch it would have been unfaithful, but very easy very easy seems to be a lot of people do that.

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Yeah And and I couldn't violate my own conscience Before god by handling his word in an improper way.

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What did someone tell you when you were younger? You need to be consistent. Yeah That's a certain guy that did that.

24:09

Yeah. Sorry about that. Okay all right, so I've spoken i've gotten in trouble uh on this program many times by talking about calvinists who think that uh to be a calvinist is to um smoke a stogie or a pipe or Drink a glass of wine and wear certain types of clothing and meet in certain places and and I remember starting minor wars in uh, you know by by A 15 minute comment on this program in the reformed pub

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Because everybody assumed you must be talking about us. And yeah, some people I was actually Though I obviously recognize that facebook groups have lots of different kinds of people in them

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Just as we have some very interesting people that post on our pages at times, too uh, I don't necessarily take responsibility for everybody who posts in anything on facebook, but we both have

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Addressed this issue many times we both have preached the necessity of holiness so much so that I know i've been identified as a false teacher by all the

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Anti -lordship folks and false gospel and you know, you know the whole nine yards. Me too um there you know, there you go, but uh

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What has brought us here today has brought you from your busy schedule and mine as well as events over the past number of months specifically going back to Reform con and when you first contacted me,

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I don't remember when it was Uh initially it was a hey early june next year

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How about you and me and john sampson we do something on on calvinism i'm like sure uh, i'm normally around the first week of june it's gonna be hot but uh, um, yeah, no problem and then as I started seeing stuff

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It got bigger and bigger and more and more people got involved. I was like wow you're Biting off a big chunk there and right.

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I know how big these conferences can get and how difficult they are anyway, um

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To make a long story short Like I said, I I I I said to people that you needed to Listen to your program before watching this because you put the two together and you get the whole story

26:29

I'm, not going to try to repeat all these things What has happened is that there has? been a tremendous amount of misinformation false information and just simple dishonesty that has uh flowed through The internet shocking as that that would be

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I mean and this may be the first time it's ever happened on the internet, but um, and it all goes back to um

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I get a a contact request through aomin .org from the publisher of christian news

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Asking me to do an interview as to why I would speak at such an event and uh

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So I contacted you and uh, and I said, uh, I I I get the feeling that someone there's there's a backstory here

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Now it's interesting certain people out in the internet have said well I just I just don't understand why you would have any problem whatsoever answering questions about holiness and sanctification.

27:30

I didn't Nothing was said about holiness and sanctification. It was an issue of this event and the tone of the event and all the rest of the stuff and And You know the and this was this was within a week of it beginning as I recall before it was right right beforehand and I'm, like well, you know, what what do you mean?

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Why I would participate in something like this and then they mentioned on the very front page of the reform con thing was

28:02

Mention of going out and talking about theology over a glass of beer now Part of this was because the reformed pub was involved right?

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So less land fear has a webcast uh called the reform pub and There are a lot of people that really really really

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Dislike, uh the reform pub. Yeah, and in fact if I were I mentioned you earlier

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I said if I really wanted to have the person who's the primary target Of at least pastor hall's ire in here, it would be less not you you're you're unfortunately somewhat

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You you've just been joined at the hip in his mind Uh as if you're responsible for everything he does and vice versa and and you're all just part of this one

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Calvinism with an asterix type thing. Um But the idea the there was an announcement of an event

28:55

Mm -hmm um, which took place as I understand it, uh, Actually after the conference was over the night of the of the uh last day.

29:05

It was a saturday afternoon saturday afternoon Close to evening. Yeah, okay And if I remember correctly you mentioned you you gave the explanation.

29:14

Let me just run through it very quickly a local restaurant Has been helpful in Uh in the past in uh your outreach to homeless people things like that The owner offered to your fellow elder luke primarily

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Uh that if folks came over there and they bought a beer sampler and I I'll be honest with you.

29:35

I cannot stand the taste of beer I just I actually had had a little sip of one in london

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That didn't leave it this that horrible aftertaste. It was like, oh, okay I wouldn't walk across the room to get it.

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But at least it's not like everything else ever tasted. So Um, so but my assumption is a a beer sampler is little teeny

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Shot glasses of different kinds of beer. Yeah, which is like a sampling of a few different beers yeah, and I small and I I couldn't they'd all just taste like shoe wax to me anyways, but But some people sit there and i'm very hoppy or something.

30:10

I guess I don't know But you would have to go through dozens of these things, uh to to get yourself sauced or anything else

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So these are little these are little things a bunch of different things. Okay. Anyway, if you buy one if you buy one of these uh proceeds from that would go to The church for the kawaii thing, right?

30:30

Yeah So you it was a one scheduled event Linking up with the reform pub

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They do reform pub meetups across the country and post pictures atlanta reform pub meetup and everyone's together

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Talking about theology and christ and might have a beer or whatever, uh drunkenness forbidden and condemned um

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And we had because we're linked up with the reform pub one organized pub meetup ultimately

30:55

For the event itself and that was at the very very end, uh, and it was at my friend's restaurant.

31:00

And yes He did use the money that was made for the beer samplers to give that and donate to apologia church.

31:06

Okay. Yeah now This wasn't done during a church service.

31:12

Nope, you you weren't preaching With people, you know, like at the at the ballpark, uh walking up and down the aisles throwing peanuts and beers to people.

31:21

No Um, were there any tattoos done at the at the restaurant? No, that would probably be illegal.

31:28

I think yeah Probably and highly offensive to the other people at the restaurant too. Yeah uncomfortable.

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Very very uncomfortable. Okay um so But the but the the guy

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Actually gave money to the church that so many people are like can't do that.

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Mm -hmm Why because in the back of their mind? That's tainted money. That's right tainted money

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And I think that what I want to say to brothers and sisters that disagree Is that I am not a poster boy for christian liberty and fighting for it and getting you to agree

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It's not my thing. I have no desire to spend my life in ministry being Uh the example of the person by the way young wrestlers and reformed never thought

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I was part of that all of a sudden Apparently I am uh, but anyway, uh, so if you disagree, I want to first and foremost say

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I respect you I do love you for jesus sake and I have no Intention of going into a battle with you to try to have you change your mind

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I want you to have your convictions before you and your master and I have my convictions before my master

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Um, so so in terms of of that discussion I want to be gracious to another brother that disagrees first and foremost

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I'm, not in this to say let me try to change your mind now I think that there's a more consistent biblical position

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I think and um, i'm always willing to be corrected but um these verses in scripture that again in deuteronomy 14 have people taking alcoholic wine and turning it into capital for worship

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I think is very consistent with going to a restaurant and a

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Private restaurant owner saying I would like to take the money that I made from these beer samplers and give it to your church now in the new in the bible say someone says well

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I struggle with it. I would say why do you struggle with it? Is alcohol a sin? Well, no, it's not a sin Okay So if some money is made at a single event at the end of reform con by a private restaurant owner

33:21

Uh, and it's given to apology a church for its next leg of the mission Why is that sinful?

33:26

Um I would say I can actually point to examples in the scriptures where wine is used as part of actual worship, but it's unfamiliar with right

33:35

Exactly, and I think that's the thing is that we're allowing our Experience our traditions to actually dictate what is holy behavior

33:45

Rather than saying what does the scripture say because here's the thing jesus at a public event Turned water into alcoholic wine

33:53

Drunkenness forbidden. Jesus is not a drunkard Although he apparently drank alcohol in certain contexts to where people could accuse him of being a drunkard

34:02

Not because he was but because they saw him with alcoholic beverages and he did not abuse it

34:07

He's god in the flesh and he's sinless, but he did it in in public context He also gave us wine at the table as part of worship when someone says you can't use money made from wine or beer

34:18

To for the church, I would say well jesus gave us wine in worship

34:24

And I think that begins to unravel a bit of an inconsistency Maybe in somebody's mind in terms of how they're thinking about it.

34:30

However, I want to stress this I'm, not in it To say to the person that uses grape juice at the table

34:38

You're just doing it wrong and i'm going to prove you wrong and I want to say That's between you and the lord

34:44

My own personal conviction is that it has a proper place for worship

34:49

Now does that mean I want to go out now and start having on the corners advertising unbelievers beer fundraisers for apology of church

34:56

Never has happened never will happen Uh, it was a particular context with people who have a certain conviction about this and here's the thing jeff durbin

35:07

The pastor in arizona who's known for our I mean, I was just I was at I was at church last night till 9 30

35:12

Sitting with a couple whose son is struggling with heroin addiction I'm the drug pastor and and that's that's what people know us as how do

35:21

I feel? About this issue, um in in the context of worship in the church if you abuse alcohol

35:28

Beer wine if you abuse drugs I'm going to call you to repentance If you're living a life of drunkenness i'm going to call you out on it

35:36

I'm going to sit down with you and say you need to come to christ for this pleasure You're seeking you need to come to christ for this freedom from loneliness

35:42

You need to come to christ for for what you're running towards, uh, and so that's how

35:48

I that's how I feel about it all right, so uh This takes place

35:55

I decline being interviewed, uh by christian news Uh, I told him if you'd like to talk about what i'm gonna be talking about That's great, but I don't have any interest in talking about tone.

36:04

It's had nothing to do with holiness Sanctification christian freedom that that's that's a completely bogus made -up thing uh that that has been made up by other folks who are looking for a reason to to get a fight going but Nothing came of it as far as an immediate article now chronologically speaking approximately two weeks later

36:26

Something takes place at the in the studio At apologia studios now you weren't there.

36:33

I don't believe were you there. I was there I was there for the for the first part of it. Yeah, I was there for a little bit. All right

36:40

Very quickly, uh, you have a member of the church who Is an artist.

36:45

Yeah does tattoos. Yep And he is going to be moving to kauai. Yes But that's expensive to do and so a

36:56

What y 'all did is you put sandwich signs on people and sent them out into tempe, right?

37:02

That said free tattoos raise money for is that what happened? Absolutely not. Um Claudy and his wife shelly are full -time

37:10

They're they're in like vocational ministry towards drug and alcoholic Addicted people and the homeless.

37:17

That's what they do full -time. He's also a tattoo artist and um He was short

37:23

Some money for this last leg of the mission where we had to go out and do some final things before we start really getting ready to send people um, and we had already spent

37:33

A long time raising money. We've already been doing sales. We've already been trying people have been giving Money just hand over fist just giving money away

37:41

He's aware of that That people have already been given so much Claudy decided to use his vocation

37:47

As a tattoo artist, uh to give tattoos to people so he could basically labor These are people people at apology a church a few people have wanted these tattoos

37:58

So they've talked to him about it and yes And so a private message went out to about eight or ten people private message not even to apology a church broadly

38:06

That claudy would be doing tattoos. Uh, and you could pay him for the work that he would do

38:11

He just needed some extra funds for this last leg Uh, and so that's what happened It was at the studio because we don't own our own building and that's where we could do it and claudy did some tattoos

38:23

So you're standing there In the middle of a church service and they're doing tattoos.

38:28

Absolutely not. Yeah happens, but that's how it sounded discount Well, it was it was actually in the news an article was actually published that said arizona church has bible beer and tattoo conference, right?

38:39

Absolutely false witness. Yeah, it's just pure false witness and the the struggle that it becomes difficult

38:46

Is when some of these news agencies are contacted? That never happened

38:51

It's completely false they can see it and say Chair's too good.

38:57

Oh, no, never take it down. It's click throughs click through even though it's it's it's complete false witness click

39:02

Never happened. So, uh, it was a private um gathering of people

39:08

At the studios because that's the only space we have really we can use And he used his vocation and labored for the exchange of money that went to him

39:16

The only person that didn't pay claudy directly Was pastor luke because we pay all the bills anyways

39:22

And he had the ability to put the money in the account to pay the bills. And so, uh, that's that's what happened

39:27

All right, and by the way, there was no booze, I was gonna say so I Now this is this is interesting because when this happened um

39:37

Unfortunately the poor young man who is the primary Person whose picture has been plastered plastered all over the place is my son -in -law.

39:45

Yes and The reason for all this is evidently

39:52

King ginger Um marcus pittman who rich pierce says needs a new nick, uh that uh,

39:59

Ginger was on gilgans island and that does not fit. You're not allowed to have it marcus no, uh, gotta gotta come up with a new one, but Um, yeah, i just got a big thumbs down from rich on that one.

40:09

Um That's sort of where he works I mean, he's got we've got we've got the marcus pittman cave

40:17

You know with many many screens and and things to play with control room. Yeah, that's where he lives.

40:23

That's that's um and Evidently, he wasn't invited initially maybe maybe

40:30

They assumed i'm sorry marcus. You don't strike me as as the ink master, you know, I mean, it's just yeah so He comes out and what's going on and they're setting up for The the the tattooing.

40:42

Yeah and so He posts a video now my daughter

40:49

And I wrote an article and she she's my comment into what happened at night because of course dad was there so on so forth Pastor hall has just hammered on this video.

40:59

Just just the video. It's all about it's all about the video I finally watched the video and I I would have laughed

41:06

Except I felt like crying And the reason is real simple It was a facebook live video.

41:13

Mm -hmm It was something done it looked like on a camera It was on his on his camera on his camera where you do these facebook live things when something's happening and He's messing around with the guys.

41:26

In fact, I marcus. I I I will tell you this. Um That is obviously one of the most patient people in the world because if you had done that to me,

41:34

I would punched in face Just boom out of here with that camera, son um no two ways about it, but he's and they're talking about like one of the tricetras and and of course there's a joke about the um pirate christian thing and and Briefly, wasn't there a comment put on facebook by an opponent of the church a kinnest or something?

41:59

I believe so Yes, uh, and that even got quoted in the kinnest the heretic gets quoted in the in the article

42:06

There was all kinds of confused information in that article. It was just wrong And not only that the okay, so back to the video really quick it is it has been presented as if The elders got together and this is building our brand and our vibe and all the rest of the stuff and this was just a private facebook

42:27

Video thing on marcus's face on marcus's facebook page Because he was surprised at what was hadn't been told and and all he knew was that there were funds need to be raised

42:37

For the mission and claudy was doing this and here we all are and this you know, so So I we

42:44

I was going to play this. Well, I I Let me see if I still can um Uh, if I can find it, my computer's going really slowly.

42:54

Um I'm, sorry Uh because i've got i've been telling it to do a lot of things that i'm normally not telling it to do um, let me see if you can uh

43:06

Get this, uh real quick Hold on a second. Hold on a second

43:13

All right. Can you see that if I go full screen it could go really wonky because if I do full screen it's gonna

43:22

You got that? All right now if you want to find marcus's

43:29

Little facebook live thing go ahead That That was not what marcus produces when he's doing something

43:37

Seriously for apologia um, here is a 1 minute 59 second

43:44

Um, here you go. Here's um Here this is the real this is official

43:57

Three of us getting to kauai is is a pretty powerful one.

44:26

I was coming to this island because Some members of apologia church were renewing their wedding vows

44:32

And so they asked us to come to renew their vows sort of a top secret covert mission

44:37

Not letting his wife know and kauai wasn't even on my map. Not even in my thoughts and after being on the island for Just a limited time just a couple of days.

44:50

We immediately began to see the Spiritual climate of the island the island is in many ways dominated by the cults from north to south

44:58

You have the watchtower bible and tract society. You have roma catholicism. You have mormonism

45:03

You have the new age you have wuwu kind of spiritual cult buddhism. You have a shinto temple.

45:08

It's just strange Drone's really cool until you run into the tree until marcus crashed the drone

45:52

Sorry about that all right When when uh when you want to produce something, uh

46:00

Professionally obviously you know how to do it and that video was Marcus playing around with the guys and the students.

46:06

That's all it was. I mean, I do not know how any rational person Can turn that into this is apology.

46:13

I'm trying to make itself cool and building its vibe and I'm, I just looked at and I said you've got to be kidding me.

46:20

Yeah, you've just got to be kidding me now look Again, there are people

46:27

Uh, it's tainted It's tainted money, even if it's for the guy who's going yeah, even that's what he does, right?

46:35

Um because it's tattoo and and again, you know if that's where you are I I get it.

46:41

I think i've provided a fairly thorough discussion of Um the hebrew and the backgrounds and everything else because 1928 and yeah

46:52

And and the reality is I had uh paid for thads, I think two or three times over by that point in time anyways, so um

47:00

Uh, he got a cairo Has nothing to do with pirate christian And that was a joke.

47:06

It was it was meant to be a joke even then How it was ever taken seriously. I I can't even begin and that's what

47:12

I have. I have a cairo as well um, and so all right, so this all happens and that's what

47:20

Flips the switch. Yeah and out comes the articles and the first article that comes out and I messed all this up and now

47:30

I have to fix it all uh Evernote Evernote as you as you as you pull it out.

47:37

Yes. Go ahead. So, um I want to first again say that for brothers and sisters that disagree in the air with the the issue of tattoos

47:46

Um, I I again respect that very very much But the problem isn't really in that issue which can be discussed.

47:53

It's in how this was actually the information was propagated the Uh bible beer and tattoo conference or it was tattoo and booze tattoo and booze.

48:03

I do find it interesting that When uh, pastor hall has talked about Um alcohol he does admit ultimately that he he does, you know, maybe on occasion drink

48:15

Beer or alcohol and other people that are part and likes tobacco Yeah, and so and and and so jd and company and friends others like that have that have sort of gotten in on this

48:25

Have said openly I heard one say I had a cigar and alcohol today

48:31

Is what they said on on the show? I do find it interesting and I just want my brothers to humbly receive this that when they

48:39

Do this it's alcohol it's beer and alcohol when apologia Did it it was booze

48:46

And now here's the thing I do have my suspicions as to why that is

48:54

I think it's apparent Why you would use that language for yourself beer and alcohol for somebody else booze

49:01

I think I know why that is I don't want to to think their motivations are all bad or corrupt in any way

49:07

But when it is handled in the way that it was Where it is a bible beer and tattoo conference, you guys are doing tattoo and booze

49:14

You guys are out boozing around as debauchery licentiousness When you start putting those things together

49:20

I I begin to consider well, what are your motivations because I probably feel exactly the same way about beer as as jd, uh in terms of like Uh, it's it's fine in moderation.

49:34

Don't get drunk. Maybe he has a beer on occasion. I don't know that all the details I will say this if he's had a beer in the last two years.

49:41

He's had more than me more than you Uh, so that that's that's one thing Uh, but I just want

49:46

I just want to suggest that when we talk about this if it if all of it is conflated

49:51

And it goes bible beer and tattoo conference. It's false witness if it's tattoo and booze

49:56

It's false witness and um, if it's bible beer tattoo debauchery licentiousness

50:03

And all it's lost it's unhinged then all those things are pure false witness

50:10

And my encouragement in the midst of all this is is look let's walk humbly with one another and say look

50:15

Maybe there's some mistakes that have been made Maybe there's some errors that were made. Can we just confess to those errors and just say, you know, it was wrong

50:22

You know, this was wrong. I'm still concerned about these issues and I may actually go with you I may actually say

50:27

I agree with you the problem with actually identifying calvinism with this hipster

50:32

You know, you know make your own beer kind of you know stuff that kind of came out of and I don't want to be Offensive to anybody, you know acts 29

50:39

Kind of churches at a time. There were a lot. There's a lot of discussion going on They're not all in on that and that's not an identification of all of them

50:47

But that has become sort of a problem i'm in that discussion That doesn't identify calvinism.

50:53

Okay, so if we can actually say, okay, all this was false These details were wrong

51:00

We aim the wrong direction we put a target on jeff an apology at church and look that was misplaced

51:06

But you know what? We are actually in a healthy discussion now the healthy discussion is These issues and we all start going.

51:13

Okay. Yeah, let's talk about those with affection for one another respect and gentleness as brothers But if it keeps going along the line of bible booze tattoo conference and and licentiousness and carnal

51:27

Calvinism and trying to attract unbelievers Then what I have to say is you have a lot to answer for Can you see this rich?

51:35

I believe this was the original title. Um tattoos for jesus group raises funds for church plant, uh

51:42

I wonder why church plant is in print as in question marks too by tattooing members and sampling booze

51:50

Uh, I think this is the original article And I did find it very interesting that when they did find someone sonny hernandez to Comment on this who to my knowledge there have been to your church.

52:06

No, uh within a week He was the new contributor for the pulpit and pen blog. Uh, I just think that's that's relevant possibly to that particular situation but um

52:18

Now when this came out you had Had extensive conversations with the publisher of that christian news you had had i've seen screenshots you had given him your phone number

52:31

Uh, this was before reform come. Yeah, that's right One of the things that truly bothered me in reading through that was you said brother if you have anything against me

52:39

Let's talk. He would not call you brother No, and I didn't ask him to what's another thing that uh, brother hall brought up like this

52:46

He mentioned, you know theonomist. They always want to call me brother calling brother right that never happened with me I was never asking michael

52:52

Well, can you please make sure call you call me brother call me a brother, but he wouldn't I was treating him as a brother

52:57

Right, he refused not extend that and he wouldn't extend it. So I don't know if you're a brother, you know Because I was calling him brother You know, so he's dealing with dealing with a with a christian church

53:06

But he's not certain whether the leadership of the church is actually christian, right? I offered uh many times uh for a conversation to take place once I saw that he was unwilling to be forthright with what

53:19

He was going to allege and where he was at The accusation specifically against us, even though I was laying it all out on the table for him

53:26

I said well if you do call at this point, i'm definitely going to record it Because um, I don't trust where this is going essentially, but I left the conversation open

53:35

I think after he was corrected and by the way, if you can read that if you read them You'll see he was corrected.

53:40

I corrected him in there. He was going to go to print with information. That was absolutely false Um, and I corrected it in the text messages and I think that's why it didn't go to print before reformcon

53:52

That's my own suspicion. I could be wrong But I think that's why I didn't go to print because he was corrected and he had some wrong information

53:58

He said there was going to be a pub crawl that we were advertising a pub crawl, um for uh reformcon, um

54:06

If you know what a pub crawl, I don't know have any idea it's No We were going to do a pub crawl, uh

54:12

Where you just go drinking from pub to pub to pub to pub and you essentially a lot of guys that are cyclists

54:18

Love the pub crawl and they ride their bikes. Dr. White from pub to pub to pub good way to kill yourself.

54:23

Okay No, never anyway, so that was corrected now. I thought okay, it settled and it went away so when this drops um

54:35

You all were never there was no contacting you You no one contacting you said, you know, this is we're going to talk about this, uh beer and tattoo event that you all had

54:46

It just simply appears there was even though you had provided your phone number the contact information was there No contact.

54:52

That's right. Um, absolutely and uh We never had anybody send us a message I'm, not hard to get a hold of right.

55:00

Uh Brother hall knows knows how to get a hold of me. Do they think they get a hold of me? They think that marcus is in charge of apology.

55:07

Well, one of the uh, interesting news stories that came out was that marcus is a leader at apology at church um, and uh, that's not true, uh, and Not that he's not important.

55:19

He just is very important and he's loved but he is not a leader at apology at church Uh, but according to one article it was a bible beer and tattoo conference and marcus pittman is a leader at apology at church so, um, so yeah, uh

55:31

I I It's important to point out that when I spoke to michael markavich I tried to show him grace and respect and answer some of his concerns and left the door open for conversation

55:41

I think I treated him with grace and I think I treated him with respect in that conversation I don't feel like it was returns to be honest with you.

55:49

That's from my own perspective Maybe he didn't mean that but that's just how I feel But I left the door open when the article came out.

55:55

I was shocked by it. Not only was it fallacious But I was shocked by it because nobody ever contacted us, you know, these major news organizations christian

56:03

He didn't write the article. No, but he titled it Yeah, the the the slew of articles never a contact no one contacted pastor luke

56:12

No one contacted me. No one contacted marcus to ask is it true? Is there a bible and booze and tattoo conference?

56:20

Is it is it true? Is this true? How do you feel about no one asked us? um, it says a little something about Christian media on the net people went to print

56:29

Without asking which was disappointing and again further disappointing that even when corrected offered corrections

56:36

People are unwilling to make changes then very quickly thereafter. We have this article, uh from pastor hall

56:44

When quote reformed end quote theology is a cloak for debauchery

56:50

Now brother hall has decided that his definition of debauchery uh is

57:03

One that certainly is provided seduction from duty or allegiance a leading astray morally

57:11

That's the second meaning The first meaning is extreme indulgence of one's appetites, especially for sensual pleasure gross intemperance lustfulness and gluttony um

57:23

I love these big dictionaries. I'm glad they're now available electronically but um the problem is that the terminology that Pastor hall has used consistently has included

57:38

Carnality. Yes licentiousness lasciviousness Uh, and there was one other i've i'll play them here in a second

57:48

You put words together And they impact how you interpret that meaning Yes, he never has used them in such a way that you would get the second meaning it's always with the the first and and when you say cloak cloak for It's all it's all meant to communicate something very very clearly i'm afraid.

58:07

I can you believe this we've been at this, um For an hour, uh for an hour and I haven't even played any of the clips yet.

58:13

Let's um Let's listen and Let's try to be brief

58:19

In our responses, okay But I think that a lot of the other things that I know i've wanted to say Will come up if we listen to these things.

58:26

I am going to be playing These clips at 1 .2. I always tell people I don't know why I feel like I have to do that But I always tell people it's a little bit faster.

58:34

Well, actually it's good that you do Because uh, my wife actually heard a bit the other day of you playing it and she was like, oh he's talking so fast

58:41

So it's good. That's why yeah, I just need to let people know it we it goes faster. It's just it's just how it works

58:47

So, all right, um one of the memes that's now coming up On the net is well, no one ever

58:53

No one ever said that it was a beer and tattoo thing even even uh in this

58:59

JD hall says I don't know how it could conflate those things Okay, well, let's uh

59:06

Let's play the tape People are finding a tattoo booze fundraiser and the video chiefly put out by marcus pitman as being appropriate

59:15

I can't believe that that dr. White would defend that type of behavior and even while You know talking about his finger being on the on the eject button from the reform pub um

59:28

Having some pretty curt things to say about them Avoiding that same behavior entirely in in jeff durbin and the guys at apology

59:35

I mean you have a conference together. You're kind of running together. It just seems blinded to them In particular and hey, you know, thank you for going against the grain and so forth so the exact same behavior,

59:47

I guess what he's saying is That somehow, you know, I have expressed problems with the uh, uh the hipster calvinism, uh, and allegedly

59:58

I see the exact same behavior and you the problem is I don't And jd hall never provides a single meaningful argument to substantiate that it that there is right because he's judging from afar

01:00:09

He doesn't have the information, right? He's Operating on false information. We've now documented that fully um

01:00:16

And yet you have tattoo beer fundraiser right there. Uh, there there's

01:00:21

And then later, how can anyone conflate it tattoo booze? Was that booze? Yeah, uh, see I just automatically believe so.

01:00:27

Yeah tattoo booze Well, that's easy People are finding uh a tattoo booze fundraiser. Yep that tattoo booze fundraiser.

01:00:34

There it is Um, so we wonder where the conflation came from Well, it uh, it came it came from from pastor hall's own mouth the podcast last time

01:00:42

Uh in which I said if calvinism does not quickly disassociate from carnality It will be a bigger danger to the church than charismania.

01:00:49

So this this term of carnality Uh fleshliness a constant theme. Yeah And it is a danger

01:00:58

In people who think that there is an external cool behavior that defines

01:01:05

The faith rather than mortification all the things that we've already talked about, right? There's no so much of what and in fact,

01:01:12

I made this comment when I when I responded initially Uh to pastor hall was so much of what he said

01:01:19

We agreed with it's just that he's shooting at the wrong target. Yes. Yeah, uh, he's he I I I just don't know if he doesn't have the time to listen to our sermons or listen to your sermons or just doesn't

01:01:31

Care because of I think it's because of association Uh, I think there is a a filter of association and if someone i've experienced this uh in numerous, you know, it i've had baptists

01:01:44

Who won't associate with me because I will preach at presbyterian churches and of course it happens the other way around too.

01:01:50

Um And of course the michael brown thing you're just you're just if you can't see that well

01:01:55

I see it and I debate him on it. That's where the difference is and they'll seem to get that part of it. But Um, but I think that's where the problem really lies is

01:02:03

I I I just won't allow for the possibility that someone could actually preach holiness

01:02:10

And yet still have anything to do with someone that I see as the very example of what's what's wrong here

01:02:16

Yeah, I think that's where it's coming from. But here's here's the terms that we I Here's the other term worldliness world and here it is

01:02:24

But what is being piggybacked on the back of calvinism? In the young restless and reform movement chiefly lasciviousness carnality worldliness these things

01:02:35

Piggybacking as parasites on top of calvinism Give us great cause for concern agreed

01:02:43

Um, I don't see any of that happening at the boulders. I didn't see any of that happening at reform con

01:02:48

Right now that was happening that thursday night at at the studios Uh and trying to conflate them and take change our context

01:02:57

How does that advance Our disagreement with these things or and I don't understand it

01:03:03

Yeah, it only it only confuses and has caused all sorts of things when I listen to pastor hall and I hear him describing the problem of the worldliness licentiousness and the carnality and That being identified with calvinism.

01:03:19

I respond Right with shock. Yeah, I would never Want that and I preach against that and I and I would uh

01:03:26

Make sure that everybody who was ever under my care would know that that is not the identification of calvinism.

01:03:33

We must war against that sort of thing, but if in your dna And i'm not saying this about jd because evidently if he smokes a stogie and drinks once in a while This is not part of his dna, but if in your dna

01:03:47

Any tattoo, yeah And any alcohol that crosses the lips makes you a false believer

01:03:55

Even if you've come to recognize you can't defend that biblically It's really hard to get that out of your dna.

01:04:00

It is It's really hard to get that. I understand that so do I I I get it. I understand it, but I don't think that it's

01:04:07

Proper or biblical right or honoring to god to take that problem and begin to now throw it on top of the church and start swinging your sword and And destroying brothers and sisters swinging swords is what the internet was designed.

01:04:20

I'm sympathetic to the problem that they're having right? But I don't I don't um

01:04:26

Want to promote? Well, I understand you feel that way. So go ahead and start taking heads, right? You know, it's it's it's if you want to discuss it then let's get to the text of scripture

01:04:36

Let's look at how the bible talks about alcohol Let's look at how it talks about these things and let's let's see what the word of god says not what our traditions say not with What we're socially comfortable with let's make sure we let the word of god speak

01:04:48

Gotcha, so and I think that's at play here someone we like. Okay, this is about me. It's about you and me

01:04:54

This is why i'm so blind to you. Ah, okay. Uh, you have evidently you've cast a spell or something on me

01:05:01

It must be the beard. I I don't know um look I would honestly love to spend a whole lot more time with you.

01:05:08

Yeah, but we are both very busy guys. Yes and Other than reformcon

01:05:15

And The christmas party at your house I don't think we've seen each other since the last time you were on we did the kuji thing kuji thing

01:05:23

Well, wasn't that before christmas? Yeah, I was before christmas Yeah, I don't know. I think maybe maybe you're right.

01:05:30

Yeah, and then I came by your house for the for the christmas party Yeah, yeah, and then we did reformcon.

01:05:35

Yeah, and that's pretty much it. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, it's We will facebook message I I would like to think you'd like to spend more time with me.

01:05:44

I'd love to but too busy we both have incredibly busy lives and so it's not like we're just Getting to hang out all the time.

01:05:52

Yeah, uh, so and let me just can I maybe address this for a second the um, how I view the local church, um governed by elders ruling elders and uh that are teachers pastors and While I believe that each local, you know, i'm a reformed baptist fundamentally am

01:06:11

I thinking about how the the church operates? While I believe you have this church that's essentially independent, right governed by these elders.

01:06:19

I I still have deep convictions about the fact that john sampson or rich pierce can

01:06:27

Speak into my life and call me and say brother I think something's wrong and I want to talk to you about it.

01:06:33

I want you to listen to me I think that you still have the right and responsibility to correct me if i'm in error

01:06:39

And I can tell you that pastor luke and I both are committed to being Challenged and confronted if ever our conduct is not in step with the gospel or with the the glory of jesus christ

01:06:51

So we have people on the inside that might let us know. That's right. That's right So so I specifically clementine so everybody should know that our view at apologia church of church government is not isolationism

01:07:02

And i'm moses running the red the people through the red sea Um, you just defended the entire calvary chapel.

01:07:08

Yeah, that's right Uh, I believe that that we have a responsibility in the body of christ universal

01:07:15

To be accountable. I think that I should I actually People get upset with this. I think that if you're sinning on the internet

01:07:22

With no accountability and you're abusing people and you're sinning without repentance I think that your elders should be brought in I think the local church should be involved in that process if you're sinning on the internet

01:07:33

And I think it's this abusive unrepentant sin That's just over and over and over again.

01:07:39

I think the local church should be involved in that I have a high view of the church in that regard. I think the local elders should be able to be in your life and say

01:07:46

Well, what'd you do and let's talk about that? Was that biblical and I think that even local elders have to be accountable, right?

01:07:53

So in terms of how um, I would respond to correction. Do I like getting a spanking?

01:07:58

No, but do I know that it is for my good and and it's for the the glory of jesus christ

01:08:03

Yes, and so you have full right and responsibility to correct me if error if ever my foot goes off the path all right

01:08:12

Oops, I changed programs and there we go And I think that's at play here someone we like the pastor of our daughter friend of our son -in -law

01:08:23

Hang out same city speak with him. I think he's a great guy Someone we like does something that's kind of stupid or sinful or is done under the auspices of his ministry

01:08:32

We want to defend him personally What happens is we actually end up defending? What it was that he did or deflecting the criticism altogether and that leads me to the second thing i'm going to talk about And I addressed

01:08:43

I addressed this topic in a post -diplomacy report pmp interviews michael markavich regarding the booze and tattoos article

01:08:49

James white accusations towards so there's some more of the beer and booze booze and tattoo article sinful and stupid um

01:08:59

Slightly sinful and stupid I guess. Yeah, sort of kind of sinful kind of sinful and stupid, but that's that's that's the explanation of Me and just to make sure people recognize this was what the meme was

01:09:13

Uh regarding who has all the information just the people actually inside the church. Was there enough information to be had?

01:09:18

Uh regarding the beer and tattoo thing in marcus's video to be able to make a judgment about the video

01:09:24

And about what happened that night The beer and tattoo thing in marcus's video. Yeah, there was no there was no beer

01:09:31

No, the beer and tattoo thing in marcus's video if he wonders where the conflation is coming from He made it up right from your lips brother.

01:09:38

He did he did. There's no there's no question about it Uh, whether he'll admit it or not is another issue now as I listened um

01:09:46

Well here, uh, let's see if we did this And it just it sounds like an attack.

01:09:52

Why does that is a doctrinal matter? Those are doctrinal matters lifestyle issues are a doctrinal matter christian liberty is a doctrinal matter

01:09:58

These are doctrinal matters. These are things that should be discussed. They shouldn't be downplayed. We shouldn't be so busy talking about it okay, now what this was about was my statement to uh the publisher

01:10:10

That if you want to talk about what i'm going to be talking about at the conference Great if you want to talk about other issues talk to jeff durbin because he's the one that put this on right and he's criticizing from uh, you should be talking about theology you should

01:10:22

I really think that if uh, jd was speaking at a conference where someone clearly had an issue with the conference

01:10:29

He'd direct people to the people who were actually putting the conference on too At least I think that's wisdom

01:10:35

But it's just I don't I cannot begin to understand why anyone who knows me would take seriously the accusation

01:10:42

That I dodge these types of things most of the criticism I get for the stuff

01:10:48

I do on the program is you know, you talk about this thing and that the such a wide right and You know when you start going after issues of holiness or something, you know

01:10:56

We get I get criticized for that all the time I just don't it's hard to even conceive why someone would come up with something

01:11:02

There are you can just do a google search. You'll see people attacking you as preaching a false gospel because you talk about a life of sanctification and holiness as Part and parcel to repentance is not something that's just over there on the side.

01:11:16

I've debated I debated wilkin on this I mean, it's one of the weirdest debates I've ever done. But uh, I I debated wilkin on this

01:11:21

Long history of tangible topics that few people can understand and I get their word. Thank you for doing it

01:11:27

And in the meantime though ignore our christian lifestyle and conduct before the world

01:11:34

This is the example of having Okay, no, no, it's not I don't want to go that far

01:11:39

You've heard the expression you're of such heavenly mind. How does that phrase go? Now you see The reason

01:11:45

I chose this one is because there was an example of jd pulling himself back He was about to say this is the example of being so heavenly mind is no earthly good

01:11:53

Because I said let's talk about what I was actually be talking about Which is hyper calvinism hupo calvinism is which

01:11:59

I sort of think is sort of important but it no one has cared about that because of everything else happened, but Uh, but he didn't pull himself back and unfortunately in what's come since this time that restraint's gone and it's just just, you know, throw the bombs the fire bombs everything else, uh, and But i'm not ignoring our conduct before the world

01:12:19

Anyone who can listen to this program anyone who can anyone who can listen to the as of this month two year long series

01:12:26

I've been doing on god's law, right? Uh at prbc and and and say well,

01:12:32

I think because you won't talk to that You just want you don't engage this debate Okay, the conflation

01:12:38

I pointed out weeks ago. This didn't happen. Here's jd It wasn't like people walking down streets going.

01:12:44

Hey come to our church We're a tattoo parlor now or something like that and that was three weeks separate Yeah, I i've looked over the christian news network article several times.

01:12:53

I can't see where it's conflated How about in the title that we already showed? It said right there.

01:12:59

I That no, it's that i've got a different one up right now, sorry uh

01:13:06

Rich was trying to anticipate me, uh there um, but then this I and I i'm sorry that you had to listen to this, but Um, then we had this

01:13:17

Don't see how that's Uh was ever insinuated to be the same thing furthermore concerning their church planning efforts in hawaii.

01:13:24

That's really really good. Um, Assuming you want kind of what they got going on imported to hawaii.

01:13:31

Um, then that's Commendable I don't know what else to say um congratulations praise god

01:13:41

Hallelujah Um, this is called mockery and earlier in this program remember when he

01:13:48

Played one little thing. I said three times over I I if I played this three times over slowly, then

01:13:55

I could do the same thing that he did it's it's really not difficult to do, uh with modern audio stuff on on a computer, but What bothered me there was uh, well if you want what they've got going on there and given what you've described, um

01:14:10

Delivering people from bondage to alcohol and drugs and preaching repentance I think that's that's

01:14:16

I think that's what we want in kawaii. I hope that goes to kawaii. Yeah. Yeah. Um Now now let's all say elephant in the room.

01:14:23

Uh, he doesn't like theonomy Right hates it despise. Oh, no, no, don't don't mention that So so that's that's a a critical part of all this is

01:14:32

I wonder how much of that has to do with his You know criticism. This isn't the first time this is my it's not my first rodeo with dealing with criticisms coming from hall, um, so and You mentioned something to me that I had somehow missed.

01:14:46

Um Uh, what's the phrase he's uh used to he has called me a heretic

01:14:51

He's called me he has accused us of the judaizing heresy. He has called me a beer guzzling

01:14:57

Hipster skinny jeans wearing beard lover Uh, and as you said on you're you're guilty of one of them one of those

01:15:06

I do like beards Uh, never worn skinny jeans ever. Uh, haven't had a beer in about two years.

01:15:12

Um and heretic uh My confession is a 1689 london baptist confession of faith

01:15:18

You can see all my teaching for years consistently on the same issues in terms of the judaizing heresy

01:15:24

I think that if if I called somebody a judaizer I would actually mean it right and I would mean that they're not a christian and he and he specifically says here

01:15:33

I'm, i'm not saying he's not a word for i'm not saying he's in fact even said if anyone has said Uh that jeff durbin is a false teacher to contact him and he gives his email address

01:15:42

So do you think you should write to him and give him his own email address? Now again, these are things maybe he hasn't said recently on his shows

01:15:50

But of course there is always a screenshot that I get of the pulpit bunker on a regular basis

01:15:55

From people who are in there that feel the need to send me the screenshots. Oh, i've gotten a few myself

01:16:01

I I get them. I don't ask for them I've never asked for them, but they come and I see all the nasty things that are said about me and I appreciated what uh

01:16:10

Pastor hall said on the I think it's this program how he talked about it. I've never said he's not a brother

01:16:16

I've never said anything about his character but I also I I just know there's a history and i've seen just a lot.

01:16:23

Yeah So many of us many of us have yeah, yeah, so the thing is If you're like well, this wasn't it wasn't to be seen as cool or we weren't doing it to kind of build our vibe

01:16:35

And be like all seeker friendly and attractional What's the point of the video that marcus did that was broadcast?

01:16:43

Um, I think marcus was Having fun with the camera like he normally does It's marcus's facebook page.

01:16:49

Yeah, you know, I just want to say this Again, respectfully and by the way, summer pointed out his facebook page is not private.

01:16:55

Yeah Yeah, it's when I say when I say it's his private facebook page. I mean it's marcus's you have to yes

01:17:01

You have to friend him to be able to comment, right? So maybe I use like my word like mine

01:17:06

Yeah, it's it's it's like I call my facebook page my facebook page my private page. I don't mean that no one can see it

01:17:12

Um, but the point is is look marcus Used his camera phone We don't believe that this is sin

01:17:18

We think that it is fine. We do it to the glory of god. You may not agree, but that's his facebook page

01:17:23

I don't believe that as christians that the answer to the weaker brother stronger brother issue

01:17:29

Is that this quote unquote stronger brother has to live their life in hiding pretending that they're something that they're not um, and so that that's a discussion that could be had but it was marcus's

01:17:39

Facebook live video and I don't know how anybody can look at it and not hear the laughter and the jokes and it's bunch of guys uh, like I said

01:17:51

Thad proved himself to be one of the most patient people on the planet I'm, sorry but uh that if that ever happens again, you have your father -in -law's permission to haul off and whack him because that's what

01:18:05

I would have Done. I would have done it I really would have but anyway Uh how anybody can take that as as you know

01:18:13

The elders sat down and and this was the planned out promotion in your career, you know, let's create a vibe

01:18:18

Let's let's be seeker friendly when I first heard the descriptions of it from the from the other side

01:18:24

I thought you did have guys in sandwich signs outside going free tattoos church fundraiser

01:18:31

That's what it sounded like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it really did I think there's a lot of people that are going.

01:18:36

Oh, that's not what it was. No new no one actually Actually, it wasn't but here's where we get assured that no one's attacking them believe that at any point i've insinuated that that Durbin is not a christian or not a fine christian man again

01:18:50

What's happening here and understand this for the sake of polemics? The notion is you've said someone is an error

01:18:58

Therefore you're saying they're bad You're saying they're an error. Therefore what you're saying is they're awful terrible

01:19:06

Nasty horrible can't believe you would say those things you're like I I hold on a second. I didn't actually I didn't say those things

01:19:12

What are you talking? I didn't I didn't say they were nasty horrible bad terrible people. I didn't say that Their breath didn't smell good and that they weren't totally lovely

01:19:20

Snowflakes that had never had a bad thought in their mind and like i've i've not impugned them. No, no Let's be honest when you when you do the lovely snowflakes and breath thing

01:19:29

It sort of detracts from what you're trying to say and you have Actually referred to heretics and judiazers and and and statements statements like that.

01:19:39

I I do want to throw something here I just happen to look at um My my twitter feed and I I just I want to throw this out

01:19:46

Let's address this. Okay. I get the distinct feeling jeff durbin and dr Early 1689 that's me are referring to jd hall as brother hall facetiously

01:19:53

No Jd is my brother. Yep. He trusts in christ. He is he's driving me crazy right now

01:20:00

Yeah, yeah, I think he's I think here's i'll say it publicly. He's sinned against me. Yeah But I have

01:20:06

I have already committed to forgive him and not abuse him and uh

01:20:12

He is he is a pastor. I I am I am duty bound to respect his position as an elder at a reformed baptist church

01:20:21

God calls me to that. Uh, I do love him for jesus sake and I I pray that he would

01:20:27

Experience a change of heart in this area and recognize he has just made an error Uh, but he is a brother in christ period this morning

01:20:36

I wrote a brief article on facebook because uh sometime this morning someone sent me a message it's amazing

01:20:44

I saw it because It came through my my personal facebook page and unless you're one of my friends.

01:20:50

I don't see it But my phone for some reason started once in a while telling me something about that.

01:20:55

I'm like, I don't even know how it changes We're rich doesn't get it either. But anyways, I happen to see someone sent me a message and david wood

01:21:04

Had made a comment on facebook uh once again raising uh the issue of Jd and eric canter's son, right?

01:21:16

I have jd hall has no idea How much I have paid to defend him on that issue?

01:21:22

He has no idea because I don't I don't call him up and say hey jd Just I just got disinvited from this because that or this person's mad at me because I don't

01:21:28

I don't I don't do that kind Of thing. That's just I'm I I know That his interaction had nothing to do with that.

01:21:35

I know he was falsely accused of it and when david wood repeated it I wrote something this morning and said fair is fair truth is truth david.

01:21:44

This is 1000 fallacious you need to withdraw this it's false And when

01:21:50

I addressed jd in defense of you a few weeks ago on this program I again stated the fact that not only have

01:21:59

I defended him. I know he's my brother He's hurting people Um, I do feel like he is becoming isolated

01:22:07

Uh, I do feel like he's pushing people away if he is coming after me. He is really his sights are really really way off um and but Sadly now

01:22:19

You've got the camps forming and and lobbying the bombs like that and i'm just i'm just not interested in it

01:22:25

I don't I don't want the bombs being thrown at jd or anybody else We've got enough to be dealing with right our schools are going to be illegal in in a not too distant future

01:22:36

Yeah, uh, we we've got stuff coming as this stuff is going to seem like so Ridiculous, right?

01:22:42

Uh when the persecution starts, yeah And I do want to put on record since people are going to be listening to this Um, we made a commitment a long long time ago we received um many, uh destructive, uh accusations from hall and company guys that are around him and Uh over the last year and a half, uh shows whole show has been done about me

01:23:04

There have been issues of false witness and false claims made we made a commitment a long time ago not to engage in the back and forth and so Um, we don't get in it

01:23:12

We don't do it and we in this case felt the need to Have to respond to these false claims because of how far and wide it spread

01:23:20

But there are times where we've just literally ignored, uh nasty things that have been said false witness.

01:23:26

Um, and we're committed to Glorifying god and not engaging in the mudslinging in the back and forth and the taking down of someone's character those sorts of things

01:23:35

But if you want me to say it officially again, he's a brother in christ. He loves jesus. He's a pastor

01:23:40

He's worthy of my respect Um again, I think that he's wrong and he's sinned it makes it all the more hurtful it's one thing for unbelievers to to do this type of thing ignore your entire life of ministry and Accuse you of avoiding things that you've never avoided.

01:23:54

It's it's the fact that it's a brother doing it. That's right problem Yeah, that's that's what hurts. Uh, I I still need to get these and we need to hurry up.

01:24:00

So, uh, here we go um, it's it's not because Joel mcdermott or jeff durbin or marcus pittman or dr.

01:24:07

White or jd hall has a beer or happens to get a tattoo It's because I think this was for me when

01:24:14

I heard this I was writing Um, I think I was riding up toward uh guardsman pass in utah and I said this is this is this is the key

01:24:23

This is the key right here. It's because they're associating it with a function of the church building the brand of coolness of hipsterness with the church associating what is a stumbling block for many with a function of the church

01:24:39

Participating in a culture and advertising it as though it's a good thing in pittman's video Advertising it as somehow part and parcel to their culture

01:24:52

As opposed to pushing people towards modesty sober -mindedness christian maturity

01:24:57

As opposed to now, this is not a church event This was not a sermon

01:25:03

Uh, there was never a day when you were standing up there preaching With the background noise of a tattoo machine going on Which does happen that has happened and you would find that to be yeah, not in my church

01:25:15

But it is i've seen art footage of tattoos going off while someone's preaching with a bible

01:25:22

And that's not happening. Uh, horrific. Okay, very good um, but in pastor hall's mind

01:25:30

He for some reason So closely associates you With what he understands the culture of the reformed pub to be that he can't he evidently just simply cannot see

01:25:43

Yeah, where the distinction is how it's not true. It's it's just it's just a it's a mirage

01:25:49

It's a it's a figment of his imagination and he's running with the figment of the imagination But it's this brand.

01:25:56

It's this hipsterism Everything that you have spoken against and said no, no, no, this does not fit the history of What we've done and everything else

01:26:04

But it's the narrative and unfortunately It's very clear to me

01:26:12

That In the few interactions i've had online. There are there are people within this group

01:26:19

That no matter how often we say what we say here Um, they're not going to care Yeah Yeah, my hope is in the midst of this is to is to respond to the accusations offer refutation

01:26:31

And bring glory to christ by um from my perspective closure Yes from mine as well.

01:26:38

Yeah, and uh, because I I don't want the name of christ Brought down because of infighting over such foolish things, right?

01:26:46

Uh, and so that's that's why i'm going to do it And other people that will just maybe stay stubborn maybe see a fact that directly refutes them and something they've said

01:26:54

And rather than just being humble and saying look, you know, I don't always get things right. I blow it I'm, sorry, which we would completely say praise god.

01:27:01

Let's move on. Yeah, let's move on instead of instead of doing that I think they'll probably maybe dig their heels in which is unfortunate.

01:27:08

But from our perspective we trust god who is a righteous judge I did I did at one point make a comparison and jd mentions it right here.

01:27:16

Let's let's listen. We said Dr. White makes mention later on of him holding my ar -15. Well, some might consider that In distaste or or something like that I don't have anybody rather.

01:27:27

I don't have a problem with anybody Going out after a conference and and having a beer if you have a conference that's about beer in the bible

01:27:33

Then yeah, I do have a problem with it Um, is that what we did? We didn't do have a conference about beer in the bible

01:27:40

But you had it on the front page We did have an invitation for people who attended the conference to go

01:27:46

And and you know what I would not have a bit of a problem rich do you have what i'm sending you right now? Well, he just he just he did by the way

01:27:54

Just say I don't have any problem with people going out of a conference having a beer and he's also said

01:28:01

Um, you know don't have a problem with going out shooting. He even said that they've done that i've been to churches like that If I saw on the front page of A conference up in montana or wyoming someplace

01:28:14

Uh an opportunity to go shoot jd's ar That would increase the likelihood of my going it really would

01:28:22

I think I I it's like going to georgia every time I go preach in georgia We go shooting

01:28:28

And I've I didn't pull it up, but i've got a picture of me shooting What is the what is the 50 cal sniper rifle the big huge one with the suppressor and what's that called it?

01:28:38

Something something it's a one. I think all I know is it's the the The shells are this long goodness and uh you know, it's the one they use to to You can shoot the engine of a car and it'll go right through the block and right and stop it, you know and These folks are armed

01:28:58

George is never submitting to anybody ever again. I'm armed right now but but the the point is that that um if if If someone advertised that I would have no problem, especially in georgia

01:29:14

If if someone said and after the conference, we're gonna go out to the rock quarry and take dominion

01:29:20

Uh with we have we have 10 ar -15s ready to go and the top donators get to go out to the rock quarry and go shoot

01:29:28

I I wouldn't have any problem with that at all and I Don't mind that there is a picture of me on the web with jd

01:29:36

And and his ar is so much nicer than mine is it oh it's my mine is a is a is a police

01:29:44

Cast off. Yeah You know, it's got nothing on it. It looks kind of like that, but it's yeah, well that don't they all yeah, uh, but but I would have no but what jd doesn't understand is in massachusetts

01:29:58

That would be just as offensive as the thing of the boulders right many people right and especially in europe.

01:30:04

He doesn't Jd be careful. Don't go to new zealand Um, because I was I was sitting with a kiwi once in australia and he was

01:30:12

I don't Understand you american evangelicals and your guns just trust your government

01:30:21

Okay, um, so my point with that was I would have no problem If they advertise that on the front page, but they have a problem with you doing that on the front page

01:30:31

Even though it was not a bible and beer conference um or anything even close to that, but And and fundamentally if we can just grab hold of this if you can grant

01:30:43

I don't have any problem with people going to a conference and having a beer afterwards Then you have granted it's done the foundation of all that we did now again, if you want to say yeah, but Those funds were used to give to the church.

01:30:56

Well, is the money is it sinful or not? Is the money tainted in some way? That's a whole other discussion, but it wasn't debauchery

01:31:04

It wasn't licentious. It wasn't worldliness carnality Yeah, it was it was what he grants is available and possible for believers, right?

01:31:13

All right. No, no two ways about I think there was a major major inconsistency there And by the time it's reformed pub

01:31:22

Then I think you've just put a minor up there with a major and that might be a problem

01:31:27

And there I think is one of his primary issues Is he sees in the reformed pub the connection of carnality in the

01:31:42

Over -emphasis upon alcoholic consumption, which can happen. Yes. I've criticized that I would criticize it equally um

01:31:50

Which is why maybe less should be sitting in that chair and not you on some of these criticisms But see he has made such a close connection

01:31:57

And I would like to think that what less wants to do is to have

01:32:03

Is to lead young people in that group that he has influence over to tremendous

01:32:11

Responsibility right in the exercise of any christian But but jd says but there's lots of of immaturity in there

01:32:18

Yeah, i'm not I I should be clear i'm not in the reformed pub anymore It had nothing to do with this actually left during the mills had nothing to do with this at all

01:32:25

It had to do with some nasty folks And I you know, I just didn't want to be constantly exposed to the you know

01:32:32

The backstabbing and the shots and and and stuff like that. Um Just a couple more and we've got to wrap up.

01:32:39

Um there was a couple stuff that uh That i'm not going to get to here, but I thought this was important Why attack the independent fundamental baptists just because they do it doesn't mean it's wrong.

01:32:51

We can learn from them Because when you correct the wheel away from independent fundamental baptists

01:32:57

And their eccentricities you end up with apology at church We've corrected the wheel away from wisdom and now we've gone off into the ditch on the other side of the road

01:33:05

So you're the ditch on the other side of the road from the independent now I hadn't attacked the independent fundamental baptist.

01:33:11

I was talking about an attitude That's very common amongst independent fundamentalist baptists of the super number of degrees of separation and and everything like that, uh that goes along with that, but the

01:33:22

When you over correct the wheel from fundamentalist baptists What you get is the emergent church?

01:33:29

Yeah, I mean that's where everything is everything everything is up for question. That's right.

01:33:35

So i've missed where um Where y 'all have the candles and y 'all are discussing new models of the trinity and stuff like that Is that did

01:33:43

I did I miss it or did it just doesn't exist? Yeah, of course and uh, yeah, I mean, uh it's a bit offensive to Yeah, actually characterize apology at church in that way as a ditch in the road in that way

01:33:56

But it's kind of a common theme throughout all this is the language being used Uh to describe apology at church in these is is some pretty um powerful language

01:34:06

Uh that gives you a portrait of our church that leaves the people of apology at church very confused

01:34:12

You know, what's really weird is uh, he played sections of me speaking I wonder why he doesn't play sections from your sermons where you're promoting these things that would be

01:34:22

I would think required right, but he doesn't because he can't because it's just not there.

01:34:28

That's right You're going to find the opposite exactly if you go into my teachings you're going to find Strenuous objections to drunkenness and you're going to find lots of talk about idolatry and repentance and sanctification

01:34:39

Here's here's an example remember we just talked about the accusation facetiously. Yes. Here's here's the response

01:34:45

I know you both consider jd a brother, but you were clearly using the term facetiously I I don't even know how to respond.

01:34:53

It's just you you can't you can't win for trying You know, uh, there's just some folks doesn't matter how clear the evidence is.

01:34:59

They're just they've got their they've got their meme And they're they're going with it. And that's that's all there is to it.

01:35:05

Um, anyway continue real quick Well, maybe he is a christian Maybe I ought to knock the deck garbage off though because he's becoming an enemy of the church

01:35:11

This is talking about michael brown by promoting it You can't say i'm ignoring this chicanery because he's got doctrine right over here

01:35:20

That's what dr. White is doing with apologia or the reform pub carl calvinism movement.

01:35:25

I'm ignoring this over here I'm not addressing it And if you want to address it something's fishy something smells wrong about it

01:35:31

And and i'm going to be skeptical not listen. I'm not going to address it with you Because they're right on these doctrines over here.

01:35:38

That's the problem. This is the problem. So in his mind, this is the problem um because I would not help

01:35:46

The christian news folks with their hit piece before reform con That means

01:35:52

I don't want to talk about holiness and sanctification and freedom and uh, and liberty and responsibility and things even though I talk about it all the time and it's documented and there's

01:36:00

All sorts of evidence of this and so he's going against the facts themselves But then did you catch?

01:36:07

the just the just the coalescence Reform pub becomes

01:36:13

Carnal calvinism becomes apologia becomes what I am ignoring, right? It's all just and and I don't even know how to respond to it because it's

01:36:24

It's completely false. Um I mean again, that's it. That's a caricature another caricature not just of apology of church

01:36:31

But also of you and what you're willing to do what you have done And let me just go on record here and say something that maybe a lot of people don't even know

01:36:38

It's something that you and I know and I think you even forgot it Uh many many years ago, we're talking like my son was one

01:36:46

This is 99 I showed up to the easter pageant. I think it's 99. Maybe he was two. I showed up to the easter pageant in mesa

01:36:54

And I had on a pair of plaid Pants that might have been a little bit

01:37:02

Outlandish and Chris a long time ago. Dr. White And the look on your face

01:37:10

I Walked up the look on rich's face the look on do you remember were you there you you were you were probably there

01:37:17

The look on your face. This is also when you were pretty buff Yeah, and you and you sort of could like rest your hands like on your you were like this

01:37:24

I don't know. I don't know like you were you want the look on your face was absolute dissatisfaction and I This is the truth before god

01:37:33

I turned around after you looked at me and you looked at my pants and gave me like look And I went back to my car and I drove back home and I changed my pants and I came back to witness to mormons

01:37:43

So I have been confronted over my chicanery It's been you know, i'm sorry

01:37:52

I It has been a while. I really really wish I remembered that. In fact, it happened. I wish

01:37:57

I had pictures. I still have nightmares I really wish I had pictures of that.

01:38:03

Oh my because we desire to talk about holiness. We're pharisees Because I think that this church in phoenix

01:38:14

Maybe shouldn't put a lascivious sensational video

01:38:21

Rubbing beer and tattoos there was No beer.

01:38:27

Yeah, and he and the question has been nobody said beer and tattoo. Nobody did that.

01:38:32

Nobody It's it's and nobody was saying hey, come on down Nothing it was I mean online people have said now nobody has accused of beer and tattoo right nobody and and and there it is again

01:38:43

And again, and again, but but but that's not even what the video was. It just into somebody's face

01:38:52

Who may very well struggle particularly with the former And to put the cool factor of christianity above common sense the cool factor of christianity

01:39:03

Again presenting this as if the elders got together and we said let's you know, you wrote out a script and it was a

01:39:11

Facebook live thing with some guys in the studio and they were

01:39:17

You know, there's almost a gallows humor before you get art Because you know, it's gonna hurt.

01:39:23

Yeah, and so there's everyone's always trying to sort of You know make it even worse for you and that that's what was going on Yeah in essence, uh, but somehow this becomes the

01:39:34

The very definite all the sermons hour -long sermons right years of ministry, right?

01:39:40

becomes viewed through a facebook live video on a Would jd hall allow a facebook live video of one of the members of his church to determine the character of his entire ministry?

01:39:52

By ignoring everything he's ever said Would he ever allow that to happen? Would I? Ever allow anybody to do that to jd hall

01:40:00

No, I wouldn't right right, but that's what he's done And I guess if the if the question I want to make sure

01:40:06

I address it if the question is What if you're engaged in an activity that somebody else struggles with?

01:40:13

um Like do you have to hide that? You know, that's right because here's the thing we have to come to grips with the fact that jesus

01:40:20

At public events had wine that was alcoholic jesus gave us wine for the table.

01:40:25

That's that's my conviction And you have jesus being accused of being a drunkard.

01:40:31

He wasn't hiding The fact that he had alcohol because people made the accusation john the baptist.

01:40:38

He didn't come drinking wine But you have and you're a drunkard um, and uh, you know

01:40:44

That these accusations made against jesus in his public ministry It's because jesus actually engaged in these sort of practices in a righteous god -honoring way

01:40:54

But there were people in that society that had engaged in drunkenness and maybe had it as part of their past But jesus doesn't remove wine from the table because somebody has been a drunkard in the past That's an issue of sanctification on their behalf now here.

01:41:07

I want to say this I have I have believers at apologia church that don't drink wine

01:41:12

And you know what I do when I have them over to my house and my family for dinner I don't put a beer on the table

01:41:19

I don't drink the beer in front of them if I know that they're deep and personal convictions in my intimate relationship with them that I personally know are that they really struggle with this.

01:41:28

I'm not going to go Like and and crack the beer open and throw it in their face as I'm this is my personal liberty

01:41:36

I'm going to try my best in that particular Circumstance where I know this person and personal relationship to try my very best

01:41:43

To be sensitive because that's a personal relationship, but I'm in in in this

01:41:49

Circumstance where you have believers who all agree All right, it's okay. Don't get drunk we can hold an event that we call together with people who are of like mind and we say

01:42:01

In the right context to glorify god. We'll do it this way And in that case, I think we're being ultimately very biblical because it's allowed in scripture

01:42:09

It's again in the temple. It's a part of worship God calls his people to participate with it and it's a central part of the worship of the church

01:42:18

That's my conviction Okay, let's just play one more real quick. And I think we've we've pretty much covered to cover the uh the ground

01:42:26

Yeah, so who who called jeff durbin a false teacher? Yeah, so who who called jeff durbin a false teacher you

01:42:35

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is where he says. I think this is where he does the email thing. Let me see If you find out who called jeff durbin a false teacher in this particular, um case or Controversy Jd at polemics report .com

01:42:50

I'd like to send them an email and be like you shouldn't call him a false teacher Just because some stupid chicanery was going on It's kind of ungodly unholy a little bit carnal and worldly and you know

01:42:58

You kind of asked for it when you promoted it the way you did Um, i'd like to tell him though. You shouldn't call him a false teacher for that I certainly haven't done it if dr.

01:43:05

White knows who called him a false teacher again jd. Well, he's got my email So he can call you a false teacher in other contexts, but not that one.

01:43:12

Yeah, I have been called a heretic and a judaizer So, uh, there was uh, let me let me see if I uh can can pull this up just a second real quick here

01:43:23

I one of one of the things that was interesting I'm, not sure if you've got that. Uh, maybe not.

01:43:29

Let me see here. Which one? Uh, no i'm asking rich. Do you have anything up? Okay Can you can you put that up?

01:43:37

Can you there oh, why is it doing that? um maybe if I Double click on it uh, it's still only giving you a part of it, but I think

01:43:52

Here we go Right there Durbin is unqualified for the pastorate

01:43:59

This was a article written by seth dunn That appeared on pulpit and pen for a while I guess seth dunn has a history of disappearing articles.

01:44:12

Yeah And it it ended up being posted elsewhere um, but And why was it that?

01:44:22

You are unqualified So is jeff durbin as a theonomist durbin is not holding fast faith of word

01:44:28

Which is in accordance with the teaching so he'll be able to exhort and sound doctrine a few of those countries. So in other words Part of my defending you was an error because you're not qualified for the pastorate because you're a theonomist.

01:44:40

I have a feeling This is why the article disappeared as quickly as it did because in JD's stuff he had been saying

01:44:47

I never brought up theonomy This is a canard and then a few days later seth dunn puts up and I wonder where seth got the idea

01:44:54

I I It may have just occurred to him. I don't I don't know I just There you go.

01:45:01

I I now I had other stuff here There's a few more clips. That was a good plate. But this I look jeff.

01:45:06

Um, I think we've I think we've covered the uh, the ground pretty well, uh over the past hour and 45 minutes

01:45:16

Uh, and I have an evening service that i'm doing this evening and I think rich has something this evening and so I'm gonna go teach my kids karate.

01:45:24

Uh, well that That's pretty cool. Uh, I don't I don't uh, I don't get to do that But I did ride 50 miles on my bike this morning.

01:45:32

So in with dew point of 73 degrees, which trust me You're crazy is is really disgusting.

01:45:37

But anyway hopefully uh folks have At least heard what the facts

01:45:45

Of the matter are they've heard where you stand where luke stands where the church stands what really happened?

01:45:52

um that you are not, uh, the poster boy for hipster, uh calvinism, um

01:45:58

Carnal calvinism, right you stand against these things um and I I I think there is a good

01:46:09

Conversation that does need to be had for those who Have such a shallow understanding of reformed theology that they would think uh that what they smoke or drink or wear has almost anything to do, uh with The call of god in their lives or things like that um

01:46:30

These types of controversies take a lot of time and energy They're distracting from the the enemy loves this type of stuff right really does um my hope and prayer is that This information will be there um that those who have decided that they're going to just Take a stand here will step back

01:46:55

And they will consider and uh that there will be some restraint Practiced that they will seriously consider what it means to bring accusation uh in in this way better better make sure that you've

01:47:10

You've you've got your ducks in a row, uh at that particular point in time um, but i'm very sorry this has happened, but you know, the lord has

01:47:18

Who knows? Um this may be the means by which someone's introduced to your work and uh

01:47:25

You never know i've seen strange things when when geisler put out uh chosen but free, you know

01:47:31

It's just like oh it's just it's gonna be so confusing to people and oh, you know And I I wrote the potter's freedom in response and and look what happened as a result of that So you couldn't see that at the time.

01:47:42

Well apology at church is And in in in many ways, um a result of of that work.

01:47:49

Yeah, it really is. Yeah I I know of a a couple of churches actually, uh people who in seminary were reading it in brown paper covers because it wasn't

01:47:59

They were seriously, um, so um, so we don't know what's going to come from all of this.

01:48:06

Um, I'm I I expect push back I expect some

01:48:12

Some stuff that i'd rather not see but my real hope and prayer is that for most people Uh, they will recognize that when you do apologetics or polemics

01:48:22

You're doing it in the sight of god and uh, there needs to be the highest level of um

01:48:32

Integrity Um And you shouldn't be concerned about what people online think you should first and foremost be concerned about what god thinks about your intentions how

01:48:43

Seriously, you've done your your study right and whether you're accurately representing fellow believers in christ and to me a lot of this just comes down to the issue of associations

01:48:53

And there are a lot of my friends Who are uncomfortable? um Having associations with people that even though they say they're christians because of disagreements on theology

01:49:06

They have to behave As if they're not christians I've just come to understand that if i'm going to say a person is a christian

01:49:14

Then that means there are certain duties that I owe to that person Which is includes honest disagreement which includes calling them to consideration of especially important things

01:49:23

Just because something's adiaphora and doesn't define the gospel doesn't mean it's not important or dangerous and so on and so forth, right?

01:49:28

Um, but it has to be done with a particular mindset and a particular, um humility that isn't always there and Let's be honest.

01:49:38

A lot of this is simply do If if all if so if so much of this had had to be done face to face

01:49:45

It would never have happened so quickly. It's the internet. It's it's the internet and it's the speed

01:49:50

I have to admit I've been we've both been criticized Because we didn't just do this

01:49:57

Uh the day after the first article from jd hall, we couldn't I couldn't you were gone

01:50:03

I was gone this idea of Right now right now you're dodging you're you're you're it's just wow the impatience

01:50:11

It's unbelievable. Yeah, and I I got god worked on me too. I was sanctified in the midst of this. I mean I uh

01:50:17

When this the whole kerfuffle kerfuffle thing was happening and I was in the middle of teaching and I was not sleeping

01:50:24

And I get to maui and i'm driving on this dangerous road. I'm like, okay, just don't die and don't kill my family and I get out into the the jungle in maui off of a cliff with no air conditioning.

01:50:34

It was just a brutal experience uh and I see this article which is filled with false witness come across and i'm like Oh, no, that's completely false.

01:50:44

That's a lie And now I have no ability to communicate or contact or talk to anybody for like three days

01:50:50

And I had to just for three days just give it to the lord Just do what call god called me to do and just trust him in the midst of it

01:50:57

So god sanctified me through through all of this and he worked on my heart my trust in him But yeah, it was pretty brutal

01:51:03

To have to see those sort of things, uh being said and you know that they're false, but he worked on me He had his purpose

01:51:09

Well, he's working on both of us. I appreciate your coming in. I again I I hope um,

01:51:15

I hope it's been useful to folks. Um Um, but I I I almost feel like turning social media off for about uh about a week.

01:51:25

Yeah, I really really do just not not because I I expect any meaningful refutation but because I just don't want to be disappointed with how many people are just going to go

01:51:35

Yeah, but And just continue the narrative. Yeah, um for the sake of continuing the narrative.

01:51:41

I I hope that doesn't happen Uh, but we'll we'll see I can tell you this We've answered we've refuted we're done.

01:51:50

Yeah, we're moving on Yeah, we've got too much too much to be doing too many things to be talking about All right, brother

01:51:56

Thank you really appreciate I appreciate you. I I really really do and so do my so my kids and um we'll have to have to get back out there sometime on uh on one of those sunday afternoons and uh, and uh,

01:52:10

Preach yet. Once again, I almost have to work up special sermons just so they can last long enough Yes And then and then wear hearing protections so I don't get distracted

01:52:19

When i'm not there and we have a guest speaker like sproll or someone they all get done way too early clap when they're like We're we're done

01:52:30

The kids do too We're out of here when the sun's still up Wow, yeah,

01:52:37

I I see that happens. Hey, thank you for coming in brother folks. Uh, we are going to um,

01:52:42

Are we doing a program tomorrow rich? I don't know. He said I don't know. We'll let you know. We might there's stuff going on that stuff in california folks.

01:52:50

It's Oh, man, uh, there are things we're talking about, but we'll see we will see we'll let you know one way or the other

01:52:57

I mean we may get stormed by all the all the angry folks and uh, You know, there won't be anything left by the time we get back tomorrow.