Apologia Church, Jeff Durbin, JD Hall, and “the Controversy”

Greetings and welcome to The Divine Line. My name is James White and today a program that we have announced for quite some time I'm joined in studio by Pastor Jeff Durbin. Jeff good to see you here. Thank you, Dr. White.

It's a stop meeting like this.

I'm always in here under like well.

The last time we were wearing coogies and so most people will actually probably find this significantly.

Yes, people will watch this and not be so offended. This is true. This is well, you know. Let's not go there.

It may be an issue of Christian Liberty to be able to wear a coogie.

There's some some people are offended. I think you're just promoting Coogee Calvinism. Coogee Calvinism, that's right.

Hebrews 12:14 and the Call to Sanctification

Anyway, uh, you know, I want to start off with a text of scripture and just ask you why you don't believe this. Pursue peace with all men and tan hagyos mon. The numeric standard says the sanctification but most people know that hagyos mon means the The holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

And I've been seeing a lot of stuff recently Online that this is not something that that you you believe in. So I've just got to ask you.

What's what's what's the problem with Hebrews 12 14? Yeah, let me address that directly. I did talk a bit About this on last week's episode of apology or radio people can get it at apology or radio .com and So if they want a fuller explanation, they can get there, but we are a confessional church.

We are That kind of church that believes that the doctrines of grace and the substance of Calvinism the Reformed Faith Is something that should really affect all areas of your life whether it is an apologetics whether it is In the hospital room whether it's at the deathbed.

It should really impact the addiction facility the addiction facility Counseling you name it. We think it should impact all areas of your life. And we're also very committed to the fact that when Jesus saved somebody he saves a whole person and he saves them to the end and that God's predestining us in Romans chapter 8 is to be predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ and so the work that God begins in our lives Of salvation is is obviously God foreknows us.

He predestines us. He justified it calls us justifies us He glorifies us. Within that work is God's Intention to transform Sinners into the image of Jesus Christ to look like Jesus to pursue holiness to be like Jesus Christ To abandon sin to abandon self-righteousness.

And so the believers life we have always taught for seven years as a church plant Is to be set apart for God we're to live to the glory of God. We're to put down our idols we're supposed to live lives as believers that Express the glory and holiness of Jesus Christ.

And so we are committed to the fact and we've taught on This I can't imagine that it hasn't been virtually every weekend to the fact that if you are not Being sanctified if your life is not the narrow road It's not expressed by that identified by that if you are not on that path of sanctification To holiness then you will not see God and you don't know Jesus Christ because the work that God does in a person is The work that involves a removal of a stony heart to a fleshly heart.

It's a work that actually takes a person from spiritual death and hostility towards God and the things of God and it It's it's a work where he raises them to newness of life and they're to mortify to put to death What is earthly in us and which includes idolatry sexual morality and things like that now?

As a.

Church Culture, Clothing, and the Charge of Hipster Calvinism

Hipster Seeker. Friendly church, how do you. How do you put those messages together?

Yeah, I think one of the most difficult things in the midst of this is to see the caricature yeah, that's that's being presented of me of Apologia Church and and Did you pull the clip? I have it. Do you have excellence talking about that?

So I have for a long long time repudiated the local problem we have here in Phoenix of So so-called reformed churches. That are reformed but it's sort of a click you join it's a culture you're a part of and yes.

There are some of those movements where? Calvinism is essentially seen as this cultural thing and it is hipster and it is the brew your own beer sort of a thing. And there's no commitment to the doctrines of grace.

No commitment to the propagation of the truths of the reformed faith. No consistency. No bold proclamation of these things. No Firming up and defending these truths proclaiming them heralding them again defending them.

There's just sort of this is a really cool click and whoever Imagine we talked with us earlier whoever imagined that Calvinism would be seen as sexy and it can't last. There's no it will never last and and I have repudiated this for years and I have fought against it locally the idea that that defines Calvinism or that this current cultural like Vision should be the identification of what is reformed or Calvinism.

I've spoken about it for years. I've done battle. We both and at three I gave you a clip of three years ago me speaking on this very issue. It was it was March of 2013. You ready for that rich?

Alrighty, here we go. But I want to just say this.

The transformation of the world that Jesus is accomplishing is gradual mustard seed to large tree growth. That tree grows by means of the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom not politically not by reinventing the church.

Not by reinventing the gospel conversation and not by easing into a soft-boiled hipster Christianity that offers little more than indie music. Lessons and tasty strains of hops and a true lack of a sense of urgency to repent and believe the gospel Christ shall have Dominion.

We must not alter the message in the urgency of its proclamation for the sake of having Christian swagger. And lots of people who think we're just like them. Go ahead so. This has been something that when when I've heard JD brother Hall Speak about a hipster Christianity and this stuff defining Calvinism.

It resonates with me. Which which makes me feel like brother you've shot in the wrong direction big time. Because that's something that I have been opposed to for a very very long time. And in terms of being a seeker friendly church where this is that this is a church service at apology.

And I'll just say briefly no no you come into church and We we make sure there. There's a psalm a full psalm read at the beginning of service. We as part of service go through the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith as we do a catechism.

Our church is memorizing questions and answers from the catechism with passages of Scripture. We have a message that's at minimum an hour long. We're a family integrated church where we have kids all over the place crying in church and screaming and we have we have kids that were saved from abortion and abortion clinics running around in front of the in front of the pulpit and Distracting people as we're doing service.

We have about a two-hour minimum service every single Sunday.

We have any in a megachurch in.

Yeah, you know your own megachurch. We rent space from a big church. We only have about 200 people at apology a church and we've grown Slowly as a church and I gotta say this.

Denominational Pressure and Rejecting Seeker-Sensitive Methods

Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're you're following the all the proper parameters for church growth stuff.

What people need to hear is this and I and I'm not always transparent about this. I don't just always wear this in my sleeve and tell everyone what's going on. But years ago we were asked to participate and join A large Baptist denomination.

They offered us money. For a building they offered us all kinds of wonderful things. They were going to essentially help us as a church that was really struggling financially and I even spent a week away with my wife being assessed by church planners and leaders and got a hundred percent approval.

No. Qualifications you are 100 qualified on and on and on and on. But what they wanted us to do. To be part of their denomination. Was to do things that would have appealed to carnal things. Mm-hmm.

And so we actually decided to suffer as a church and and suffer as families to go without even food if necessary. So that to us so as to avoid any carnal means of attracting the world or being a seeker friendly church.

We rejected it. Early on it was said that that wouldn't be a part of what was going on and then it became that and then we ended Up as a church saying everybody it's a change of mind here. We're turning away from that.

We won't do it because of what's being asked of us. So we've been opposed to those sorts of things for the longest time. And again what this one makes it difficult I think is to hear some of the things that are said is is it becomes a caricature and you wonder.

Where to come from what church is that? Yeah. Yeah. There's no question about it. Let's Talk to us a little bit more you you emphasized Your focus upon sanctification holiness. But how can How can that be squared with?

Well, look if anyone's ever seen you preaching Well that you got that and then you've got Someday, I'm just gonna take you out shopping I Knock I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get you any bow ties. I would not work with that beard it would be because I was I was looking at I was looking at that camera angle right there and to me You you've got the Stonewall Jackson thing going, you know, yeah, that's right.

No. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's Stonewall Jackson right there. Let us cross over to that side and rest in the shade of the trees. Well, I said Rosie's dying so I don't want to go there with that, but You don't you don't look like I look like right what I'm preaching right so a lot of people really do judge by the external looks right and They look at Luke.

They look at you. They listen to the program where you guys have fun. Yeah, and you have music and Entertaining commercials and they just they don't associate that with someone who would be doing and teaching and saying the things that that you say you're saying and I happen to know that that's what you're doing because as Has been pointed out my daughter and son-in-law are part of your church.

And so I I know the amount of energy It takes to go to your church. Especially when you have real little ones that don't want to do that for two hours. That's right. That's right.

Okay, so Yeah, I I look different maybe I can you know, someone could take this or not. There has never been an effort on my part to create a culture around Me and my personal likes or dislikes and it's never been a topic of discussion.

It's never been something we've tried to do as a church. I you know if you listen to apology or radio and you hear us cutting up and laughing and telling jokes is because we're I. You know I think this can maybe end up hurting me because people go well.

You should be just always be serious and never never laugh because you're talking about serious things and theology and when we do talk About those things we are very serious. But then we have moments or we just we talk about what's going on in our lives.

And we've just wanted to not be pretentious and we've wanted to sort of be Honest and not put a face on and and some people that irritates them and some people get it and. We've never built the show around.

What somebody else? What they should perceive we just we've built a show where we want to bring glory to God. We want to have a great time on the show and we want to be full of joy. And that's what we do and there's nothing really within us even as a conversation of Let's promote this style of clothing as a matter of fact that I mentioned it last week an apology.

No, that's the thing too is I do pick what's available. I have I am far more associated. Yeah, well the style of clothing then you then you are you are Coogee Calvinism. So. Yeah, and and the truth is is and I feel it feels weird honestly having to talk about this.

But when I when I purchase a style of clothing, it's sometimes it's just what's available. Oh, that's a cheap shirt. And that's a cheap pair of pants at the second-hand clothes store that I usually shop at.

But if you do if you do come to Apologia Church. And this is one of the difficulties with listening to some of the claims that have been made if you come to Apologia Church. You might be kind of weirded out.

Because we have a group of women at Apologia Church that are under the conviction of the head covering movement. Okay, it's not the can that's not the you know, Apologia Church leadership promoting, you know saying that's our view.

But there are women who have that conviction and they're allowed to do that and they're allowed to do that. I don't want to have them go against their own conscience and. So we'd have it looks it looks like old school like we have head covering going on with our church and we have people at our church that come dressed up fancy and we have a lot of older people at our church that come dressed up and and polo shirts and khakis and we have people that Pastor Luke wears what he wears and I wear what I wear.

And it's just never been something we've identified as this is the culture of our church if somebody said something like well. What do you do about all the soccer moms at your church that don't look like you?

Answer we have those. And there's nothing within our church that actually identifies that as a problem. We actually you know. You don't have a vibe or a brand you're attempting to promulgate when you come to Apologia Church if you walked in it would look like any other Suburban Arizona Church service with the difference of we do have people at our church that have gauges and tattoos that have come to Christ in the last four or five years that Have come out of a context of this current culture and they have a particular style to their dress.

We've never said to them Hey, you're in Jesus now. You need to put on some different pants. Because unless there's a modesty unless there's a modesty issue if there isn't and we have addressed Modesty issues because people come to our church that are unchurched that come to Christ.

We have to say hey, that's not an appropriate thing for a woman to wear and worship or really ever. And we need to talk about that. And cancer maybe yeah. Yeah, and so so we do have these discussions in terms of what is appropriate for a believer who's pursuing holiness.

But I have never said well, you're a believer now. So you're not allowed to wear torn jeans you know or something like that because I believe that's ultimately not biblical to place a Culturally accepted norm and say well, you know us now wear this to really be a faithful follower of Jesus Christ.

What we have told people is you need to live a life of repentance and trust in Jesus Christ. You need to live a life of pursuit of sanctification. You need to be accountable. You need to be under the leadership and authority of your local elders and you need to be under their care.

We are a church that actually early on had to do church discipline more times than I even imagined what happened we had about eight instances of church discipline in the first two years because it was a brand new church out of a drug and alcohol rehab new believers some of them in deep struggles some of them false believers and we had to do church discipline one night twice on two different people and we have exercised church discipline on people for pursuing an Idol for living a life of drunkenness.

We've actually brought them before the church now praise God. Some of those people have come back and are living that lives that are renewed That are not seeped in idolatry in a pursuit of something in place of God.

But that's that's been our mo as a church now.

Holiness, Christian Freedom, and Alcohol

One of the one of the issues is that there needs to be a discussion about holiness sanctification and the relationship to Christian freedom and liberty. Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna ask you to repeat everything that was said on The program that you did.

I wasn't a week ago today. Yeah, we feel you we go today. You went through a lot of those issues you discussed all those issues especially. The strong stance you take against drunkenness. Yes. But likewise the fact that you are convicted that you cannot Bind upon the conscience of people a demand for abstinence.

That's right the interface between freedom and responsibility. Responsibility. I think we need to make a distinction between What other people think you should be doing and what is actually a right before God, right?

At that point because I think that's a lot of the issue here is There are gonna be churches that are not gonna be comfortable doing The things that you do the way that you do it. In fact to be honest with you, there's gonna be a lot of churches that would not be comfortable having some of the people come that you would be comfortable having come.

Right, however, you don't look at the church as Some big open door just any any any old you you view it as the gathering of the body.

That's the believers as believers for for worship. That's right. Sure. It's important worship on the Lord's Day. That's about God's people if you're I said this last week if you're an unbeliever. Entering into a worship service and you can hang with it for weeks and weeks on end.

I think something's wrong with the preaching. And so it is a function for the the body of Christ for believers and not for unbelievers and trying to attract unbelievers Through carnal means and trying to give out a certain vibe or look a certain way.

Is something that how can I say I repudiate that I I keep scorn upon it. I hate it. I despise that idea of doing something like that because that is not pointing people to Christ and to Their sin and need for repentance and faith and we just don't think about it.

It's not something that we do. Are there people that do that? Yeah, there are people that do that and I speak out against that as well. But in terms of the alcohol issue, this is big this was hard for us it was really difficult for us early on.

We never planned on planning a church. I never had a vision of planning a church in my lab. I wanted to be a pastor and serve God's people and teach. I was a pastor at a rehab people were coming to Christ.

The elders of the church I was at said laid hands on me. We went this church came out of nothing it was a beautiful thing, but we struggled because. Now you have a lot of people that have now turned away from this idol their addiction their lifelong pursuit and glory.

In the substance above God, right? And so now Alcohol is is this person's whole life, you know 36 beers a day, you know you have people that are shooting up heroin and now they've turned to Christ and.

But people now are being sanctified and they're now hearts changed and their view has changed. Everything's different now. They love Jesus now. They ask questions. They go. I mean, I you know, I have to attend this AA group.

It's part of my my court thing. I have to go to AA groups and they'll say You know pastor Jeff they say in an AA that you're once an addict always an addict that that's your identity. You have the brain disease of addiction and I'm contradicting it at every turn right say this issue of the heart.

It's a sin issue. Yes, there's physical issues but deal with this issue first. It's about repentance and faith and accountability all these different things, but then it asks questions like this well.

They're teaching an AA Total abstinence like it's like it's evil substance and you're an addict and you have the disease and so you can't ever put it in Your mouth again well, Jesus made wine at a wedding and Jesus gave wine in communion and I see all those references to wine in the Bible that are being used in positive ways.

So, how do I view this? So we had to try to be as consistent with God's Word as possible to say Your pursuit of this is sin. It's an idol right now. You're still warring against it. You need accountability here breathe into this breathalyzer.

That's what we were literally doing, but we would also say No, God doesn't call wine or beer or alcohol sin. He actually does speak about it in glowing terms. He actually if you look in the Old Testament in a Deuteronomy chapter 16 They're told to rejoice and drink in his presence.

If you look in the Old Testament, you see that in Exodus 29 40 wine is used as part of the ritual. You see that in 1st Chronicles chapter 9 29 Wine alcoholic wine was actually a part of the temple supplies.

You see in Deuteronomy 14 that God's people are actually told to. This is really interesting actually in Deuteronomy 14. They have wine as their tithe. Oh, yeah Shani the second the second tithe. Yeah.

Yeah, they have it as part of their tithe and yet God says, okay. Well, if this is the distance is too far for you. You take your wine. That's alcoholic wine. He says turn it into capital turn your wine into money and Then take that money and when you get to the place that's appointed for the celebration.

You can buy whatever your heart desires their wine or strong drink or all the animals. He says when you get to the place of the celebration. So in that instance God is actually telling people that the wine you use as your tithe.

Turn it into capital and use it to go buy more wine for the celebration. So we couldn't in good conscience before God and these people say well, hey you struggle with addiction. So therefore I need to start finding a way to actually turn you away from the substance from the Bible.

So what I needed to do as a pastor is say here's what the Bible teaches about alcohol. Here's what it is in in using a sinful way Jesus does have wine on the table. There's lots of stuff about drunkenness that and that was the final thing is the Bible says if you practice such things drunkenness debauchery all these things.

Then you will not inherit the kingdom of God. And so what our our our focus was on these people that were given to us was to care for their souls to give them.

What the Bible says wouldn't have been easier though. To take the normal route and just simply don't touch it would have been unfaithful. But very easy very easy seems to be. A lot of people do that.

Yeah, and and I couldn't violate my own conscience before God by handling his word in an improper way.

What did someone tell you when you were younger. You need to be consistent? Yeah.

That's a certain guy that did that. Yeah, sorry, but okay.

All right, so I've spoken I've gotten in trouble On this program many times by talking about Calvinists who think that to be a Calvinist is to Smoke a stogie or a pipe or drink glass wine and wear certain types of clothing and meet in certain places and and I remember starting minor wars in.

You know by by a 15-minute comment on this program in the reformed pub. Because everybody assumed you must be talking about us. And yeah, some people I was actually. Though I obviously recognize that Facebook groups have lots of different kinds of people in them just as we have some very interesting people that post on our pages at times too.

I don't necessarily take responsibility for everybody who posts in anything on Facebook, but we both have a Address this issue many times we both have preached the necessity of holiness so much so that I know I've been identified as a false teacher by all the Anti-lordship folks and false gospel and you know, you know the whole nine yards you there you know, there you go, but What has brought us here today has brought you from your busy schedule and mine as well as events over the past number of months specifically going back to Reformcon and when you first contact me, I don't remember when it was.

Initially it was a hey early June next year. How about you and me and John Sampson we do something on on Calvinism like sure I'm normally around the first week of June. It's gonna be hot but Yeah, no problem and then as I started seeing stuff it it got bigger and bigger and more and more people got involved.

I was like, wow, you're biting off a big chunk there and right I know how big these conferences can get and how difficult they are anyway. Make a long story short like I said I Said to people that you needed to Listen to your program before watching this because you put the two together and you get the whole story.

I'm not gonna try to repeat all these things. What has happened is that there has? Been a tremendous amount of misinformation false information and just simple dishonesty that has flowed through The internet.

Shocking is that that would be I mean and this may be the first time it's ever happened on the internet but and it all goes back to I get a contact request Through a omen org from the publisher of Christian News Asking me to do an interview as to why I would speak at such an event and I Contacted you and And I said I I I get the feeling that someone there's there's a backstory here now.

It's interesting certain people out in the internet has said well I just I just don't understand why you would have any problem whatsoever answering questions about holiness and sanctification. I didn't nothing was said about holiness and sanctification right it was an issue of this event and the tone of the event and all the rest of stuff and and You know the and this was this was within a week of it beginning.

Yeah, I recall before yeah, it was right right beforehand and I'm like well You know what what do you mean why I would participate in something that's well, and then they mentioned on the very front page of reform con thing was Mention of going out and talking about theology over a glass of beer now part of this was because The reformed pub was involved right so less land fear has a webcast Called the reformed pub and There are a lot of people that really really really dislike The reformed pub yeah, and in fact if I were I mentioned to you earlier I said if I really wanted to have the person who's the primary target of At least pastor Hall's ire in here.

It would be less not you you're you're unfortunately Somewhat you you've just been joined at the hip in his mind As if you're responsible for everything he does and vice versa, and and you're all just part of this one Calvinism with an asterisk type thing.

But the idea the there was an announcement of an event Which took place as I understand it Actually after the conference was over the night of the of the last day. It was a Saturday afternoon.

Saturday afternoon close to evening. Yeah, okay, and.

So remember correctly you mentioned you you gave the explanation. Let me just run through it very quickly. A local Restaurant has been helpful in. In the past in your outreach to homeless people things like that the owner offered to your fellow elder Luke primarily.

That if folks came over there, and they bought a beer sampler now I I'll be honest with you. I cannot stand the taste of beer. It's just I actually had had a little sip of one in London that didn't leave it.

This that horrible aftertaste is like oh, okay? I wouldn't walk across the room to get it, but at least it's not like everything else ever tasted so. So but my assumption is a beer sampler is little teeny shot glasses of different kinds of beer.

Yeah, it's like a sampling of a few different beers.

Yeah. And I small and I I couldn't they'd all just taste like shoe axe to me anyways. But but some people sit there, and I'm very hoppy or something I guess I don't know, but you would have to go through dozens of these things to to get yourself sauced or anything else.

So there's a little these are little things a bunch of different things. Okay. Anyway if you buy one if you buy one of these Proceeds from that would go to the church for the Kawai thing right yeah.

So your it was a one scheduled event. Linking up with a reform pub. They do reform pub meetups across the country and post pictures. Atlanta reform pub meetup. And everyone's together talking about theology and Christ and might have a beer or whatever.

Drunkenness forbidden and condemned. And we had because we're linked up with a reform pub. One organized pub meetup ultimately for the event itself and that was at the very very end. And it was at my friend's restaurant.

And yes, he did use the money that was made for the beer samplers to give that and donate to apology a church, okay? Yeah now.

This wasn't done during a church service. No you weren't preaching. With people you know like at the at the ballpark. Walking up and down the aisles throwing peanuts and beers to people. No. Were there any tattoos done at the at the restaurant.

None. That would probably be illegal. I think yeah.

Probably any highly offensive to the other people at the restaurant. Uncomfortable very very uncomfortable, okay?

So. But the but the guy Actually gave money to the church. It's so many people are like can't do that. Mm-hmm. Why. Because in the back of their mind that's tainted money?

That's right tainted money. And I think that what I want to say to brothers and sisters that disagree is that I am not a poster boy. For Christian Liberty and fighting for it and getting you to agree.

It's not my thing. I have no desire to spend my life in ministry being The example of the person by the way young wrestlers and reformed never thought I was part of that all of a sudden apparently I am.

But anyway, so if you disagree, I want to first and foremost say I respect you I do love you for Jesus sake and I have no Intention of going into a battle with you to try to have you change your mind.

I want you to have your convictions before you and your master and I have my convictions before my master. So so in terms of that discussion I want to be gracious to another brother that disagrees first and foremost.

I'm not in this to say let me try to change your mind now I think that there's a more consistent biblical position I think and I'm always willing to be corrected but These verses in Scripture that again in Deuteronomy 14 have people taking alcoholic wine and turning it into capital for worship.

I think is very consistent with going to a restaurant and a Private restaurant owner saying I would like to take the money that I made from these beer samplers and give it to your church now in the new in the Bible say someone says well, I Struggle with it.

I would say why do you struggle with it. Is alcohol a sin? Well, no, it's not a sin. Okay. So if it's some money is made at a single event at the end of a form con by a private restaurant owner. And it's given to apology a church for its next leg of the mission.

Why is that sinful? I would say I can actually point to examples in the scriptures where wine is used as part of actual worship. But it's unfamiliar with right exactly and I think that's the thing is that we're allowing our Experience our traditions to actually dictate.

What is holy behavior? Rather than saying what does the scriptures say because here's the thing Jesus at a public event. Turned water into alcoholic wine. Drunkenness forbidden. Jesus is not a drunkard.

Although he apparently drank alcohol in certain context to where people could accuse him of being a drunkard. Not because he was but because they saw him with alcoholic beverages and he did not abuse it.

He's God in the flesh and he's sinless, but he didn't put in public context. He also gave us wine at the table as part of worship when someone says you can't use money made from wine or beer. To for the church.

I would say well Jesus gave us wine in worship and I think it begins to unravel a bit of an inconsistency maybe in somebody's mind in terms of how they're thinking about it. However, I want to stress this.

I'm not in it to say to the person that uses grape juice at the table. You're just doing it wrong and I'm gonna prove you wrong and every I want to say that's between you and the Lord. My own personal conviction is that it has a proper place for worship.

Now does that mean I want to go out now and start having on the corners advertising unbelievers beer? Fundraisers for apology of church never has happened never will happen. It was a particular context with people who have a certain conviction about this and here's the thing Jeff Durbin.

The pastor in Arizona who's known for our I mean, I was just I was at. I was at church last night till 930. Sitting with a couple whose son is struggling with heroin addiction. I'm the drug pastor and and that's that's what people know us as how do I feel?

About this issue in the context of worship in the church if you abuse alcohol beer wine. If you abuse drugs, I'm gonna call you to repentance if you're living a life of drunkenness I'm gonna call you out on it.

I'm gonna sit down with you and say you need to come to Christ for this pleasure. You're seeking you need to come to Christ for this freedom from loneliness. You need to come to Christ for what you're running towards.

And so that's how I that's how I feel about it. All right, so.

This takes place. I declined being interviewed by Christian News. I Told him if you'd like to talk about what I'm gonna be talking about, that's great. But I don't have an interest in talking about tone.

This had nothing to do with holiness Sanctification Christian freedom that that's that's a completely bogus made-up thing that that has been made up by other folks who are looking for a reason to get a fight going but Nothing came of it.

As far as an immediate article. Now chronologically speaking approximately two weeks later Something takes place at The in the studio At Apologies to you not you weren't there. I don't believe. Were you there.

I was there.

I was there for the for the first part of it. Yeah, okay there for a little bit. All right.

Very quickly. You have a member of the church who is an artist. Yep does tattoos. Yep, and He is going to be moving to Kauai. Yes, but that's expensive to do. Mm-hmm. And so a What y 'all did is you put sandwich signs on people and sent them out into Tempe, right?

They said free tattoos raise money for. Is that what happened? Absolutely not.