MacArthur vs. Piper: Your KNOWLEDGE Is Unimpressive! | Pastor Reacts

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What words of wisdom would you have for a new pastor who's looking ahead to the first five years of ministry? Cultivate a love for the scriptures

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And the love for God And the love for people. They're not impressed with what you know They want to find out if you love them.

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They're right. People want to know that you love them pastor preacher teacher

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It's not about what you know. There are a contingent of churches led by pastors who are incredibly knowledgeable And I praise the lord for their knowledge

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But the problem is their knowledge gives them pride all of a sudden the very thing that should cause them to become more like christ

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Actually becomes a wedge keeping them from being like christ John piper and john macarthur have advice for new pastors, but do they agree with each other?

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Do they disagree? We're about to find out I love this opportunity because this is an exercise not only for pastors or those

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Aspiring to be a pastor but for the rest of us In church who want to be more informed about what good pastors look like what good churches should look like For all of us just to wrestle with what this means and what this is

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So if you're basically any kind of christian then this video is for you if you're new here Welcome to wise disciple My name is nate zalla and i'm helping you become the effective christian that you were meant to be

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Before I jumped into this ministry. I was a pastor for a number of years and a church in las vegas and from that experience

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As well as a mixture of other skills, I make these videos Don't forget to like and subscribe to the channel and if this video blesses you at all

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Would you do me a favor and just share it with someone else? Just so we can get the word out about this ministry. Finally seats are quickly filling up for Summit ministries right here

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This july summit is equipping the next generation with a strong biblical worldview with a two -week conference

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Okay, the great news is i'm going to be at this conference in georgia So You know, it's just a wonderful opportunity to just come and hang out with me as well to learn more about this and register

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Your students go to summit .org forward slash wise disciple You can save 200 when you use the code wise 24 as you think back to your early years at bethlehem and at grace

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What words of wisdom would you have for a new pastor who's looking ahead to the first five years of ministry? I wish

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I wish I would have known About this video. Oh, no, it's yeah, it happened after I was a pastor.

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I mean like I wish somebody Uh could have given me advice. I'm i'm hoping to hear uh, some really great pieces of wisdom you go

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Um cultivate a love for the scriptures

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And the love for god and the love for people and um Well, that's the great commandment right the greatest jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment?

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What did he say? Love the lord your god with all your heart mind soul and strength and you shall love your neighbor as yourself

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That's it Anyone who exemplifies the greatest commandment can be a pastor you want to know why because the greatest commandment?

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Is the one that encapsulates all of the law And according to christ it's love

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Love god and love your neighbor captures the whole of the law good for piper Focus on the reality of the text

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Sinclair and I were talking about the danger among some of Loving the text more than you love what the text is about And I think that makes for a either a pedantic ministry or a short -term ministry

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And therefore the what you want to do is to penetrate through the bible To the reality of what the text is about And that means having an impulse like john macarthur's where you read a devotional and not all day long you're asking questions about it

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What about this? What about this? What about this until you get through words? to reality

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And your people will know Whether you are real you're real and you've seen real

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Or whether you're just performing whether this is an academic exercise Whether you're just a lecturer on theology or whether you've met god, you know god

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You've seen something glorious and you want them to see what you've seen So I think that would be the front end of my my plea is that push through texts to see reality

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Which is the mainly god himself Know him love him delight in him be satisfied in him so that it's obvious to the people

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That you are exalting in him as you preach his word this was uh

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Boy, it makes me go back and think I mean this was a lesson a hard lesson that I had to learn

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Right and and what piper is saying is you can't just talk the talk. You have to walk the walk You know, this is authenticity

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Which is a high determining factor of success and not only as a pastor, but as a church uh, one of the biggest things that resonates with churchgoers is authenticity and I mean even for me to say it like that.

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It makes it sound like it's some kind of marketing ploy, which I don't know. I'm sure a lot of marketers try to leverage something like authenticity for their own gain

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But that's not what i'm talking about The fact is to be a pastor is to fully believe in and live out the calling that god has placed on your life

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And you can't fake that You just have to be a real human being Which is what you're supposed to be anyway, right and of course that involves prayer because as you

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Push into text you're just crying out open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things out of your law incline my heart to your testimony satisfy me in the morning with your steadfast love so so prayer and Thoughtfulness about the word move you into the reality of communion with god and then you stand in the pulpit and you exalt

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Over the text as you draw people to it. I don't ever think you should you should do an end run around the words

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They'll catch on to that, you know Put a system on it or put your experience on it or put a story on it or put some movie on it or put some

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Put cultural event on it and you put it on instead you're saying in the first half of verse 25 It says on that day a fugitive pause

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Explain some things Push in move on they can see you you're getting your reality in and through the the text.

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So that would be my suggestion Yeah Uh, I mean, it sounds like he's also advocating for pastors to be expositors of god's word

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Not to become so clever That everything is a story a movie uh

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A clever anecdote which oops Those are a lot of the devices that I use when

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I get up at the pulpit. You know what I mean? Um, but you know what I think those devices when used appropriately

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Are very helpful to the pastor and i've talked about this if you've watched any of the previous sermon reactions that i've done

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We just have to make sure at the end of the day that the devices do not lead the message the word of god must lead and everything else then serves the word

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And the message that comes clearly out of the scripture So You know if you're uh, you know pastor

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Preacher teacher aspiring pastor, right? You're taking notes piper says love god. Love your people

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Love the word Be authentic, right? Don't be too clever that you stray from letting the very words of god lead your messages at the pulpit.

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That's great advice Let's see what macarthur has to say. Yeah, I would affirm all that I think um

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There's a lot of a lot of things as I think about the early years One of the things that I tell young people is The first thing you have to understand is they're not impressed with what you know

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They want to find out if you love them Um, they want to they want your heart And in that kind of preaching your heart for the lord comes through and for I don't want to like too quickly go past that macarthur is affirming piper's particular answer on love and authenticity

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And the the fact is they're right people want to know that you love them pastor preacher teacher

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It's not about what you know the reason why i'm just I I usually let people go longer than that But i'm harping on this right now is because there are a contingent of churches led by pastors who are incredibly knowledgeable And I praise the lord for their knowledge.

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But the problem is their knowledge gives them pride And it starts with the pastor at the pulpit and then trickles down to the congregation

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All of a sudden the very thing that should cause them to become more like christ Actually becomes a wedge keeping them from being like christ and it's a it's a boy.

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It's a very subtle and dangerous thing knowledge is knowledge can very often lead to pride which can then lead to Spiritual blindness and can ultimately lead to judgment from god.

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Did you know that? Look at how jesus characterized it. Uh, this is matthew chapter 11 verse 25

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It says uh at that time jesus declared but what he's really doing is he's praying watch this

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I thank you father lord of heaven and earth That you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children

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Yes father for such was your gracious will now this verse comes at the tail end of Um a bunch of woes that jesus pronounced against corazine bethsaida um later capernaum

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Right. This is all uh, um in the middle of chapter 11 there The issue was that the people would not repent

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Even when jesus performed miracles in front of them And why did they not repent? Why were they not following him?

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It's because of their knowledge They thought they were wise they thought they had understanding

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Jesus is saying these things in uh in verse 25 sarcastically And because of this the people have placed their trust in themselves

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And in their own wisdom and understanding Jesus contrasts these type of people to little children.

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Why because little children are humble They are dependent on their parents

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They have no shame about it, by the way, you know, like they're completely open about their dependence and they love to be taught

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So then uh, what what is jesus communicating? About god's revelation here.

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He's saying that god hides his activity watch this from those who do not trust him

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But they trust in themselves And god reveals his activity to those who remain dependent on him

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You got to think like Why did people? Who by the way knew the law? They knew torah.

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They knew tanakh, right? Why did they reject their messiah even in the face of his miracles?

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That's what's going on up here. That's why jesus is so upset The reason the people rejected him is because they trusted their own conclusions about what the messiah would do

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They trusted their own understanding of what god's word actually teaches And this blinded them to recognize what god was doing right in front of them

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And it led to jesus woes and the promise of Worse judgment than what happened to tyre and sidon and even uh sodom

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That's what knowledge can partially or potentially do friends that's why

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Love is so important not only for the christian, but um, especially for the pastor

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You know, we have to love god more than What we know about god. Amen That's what piper and mcarthur are trying to say, you know

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Somebody might be saying well, you know nate the the reason I became a pastor Why I want to become a pastor is because I love learning the word.

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So what are you telling me? You know, which by the way, that's great. I mean it really is What i'm saying is the way you determine whether or not

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The knowledge you're gleaning from the text of scripture is helping you or it's harming you is in whether or not you look more

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Like christ because of what you know Whether or not you display the qualities that jesus lists in the beatitudes

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That that's how you figure this out Does your knowledge make you low in spirit or does it puff you up?

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You can know all there is to know about the lord Uh more than anybody, but if you have not loved you're nothing that's first corinthians 13 that that's the teaching of the scripture ladies and gentlemen and Very good for mcarthur for uh pointing this out me since god's clearest revelation of himself was christ

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I wanted to go immediately to christ because people would argue about church polity they would argue about theology, but But you really can't argue about christ

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And you get in the gospels and I did that early on and it's just christ every week Month after month after month after month after month the glory of god shining in the face of jesus christ

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And he he literally dominates the church so Years in the gospel of john when

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I first came in nine years in matthew nine or ten years in luke Five years in mark back to three or four years in john so 25 years or more of my 50 years here

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Was christ every week every week every week every week every week and you know, this is because early on I was captured by second corinthians 3 18 as we gave that his glory were changed into his image by the work of the

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The holy spirit and if the work of sanctification is to conform us to christ We have to know what christ is

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We have to focus on him. And and so again, that's why paul says let the word of christ dwell in you originally so it always seemed to me that You You have to do more than know though and I get it.

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I mean these guys are riffing up there um, and and uh boy my goodness the the combination of their experience at the pulpit uh combined is

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Massively impressive. Okay uh So I say this with all due respect I just A lot of us who hear these comments

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I think we're gonna miss the nuance and there is an important nuance Here it is. It's more than merely knowing about the characteristics and attributes of christ

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You can know a ton of helpful stuff and never do anything about it The the bible doesn't want you to know stuff

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Uh, it doesn't want you to know a bunch of stuff about christ. The bible wants you to imitate him

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It's about being like christ That's what paul meant when he said this colossians 3 12 put on then as god's chosen ones holy and beloved compassionate hearts kindness humility meekness and patience

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By the way, notice these are the same qualities and characteristics that jesus listed in the beatitudes right

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By the way, this was also how jesus himself acted now. Why doesn't paul say?

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Uh, you know, what would be great is if you just know about these characteristics, you know, like theoretically

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Uh, you know, it'd be great as if you just learn about these characteristics as if you were going to write an essay about it

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For college. No paul says put on these things put these things on you Wear them as if you were wearing clothes

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Be these things friends That's what it means to conform to the image of the sun Jesus said the same thing in luke 6 40.

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Look at this a disciple is not above his teacher But everyone when he is fully trained will here it is be like his teacher

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I'm gonna i'm just gonna let that sit for a second, right? Be like his teacher.

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That's why paul said the same thing to the the church in first corinthians 11 He said be imitators of me as I imitate christ

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This concept is everywhere friends It's not about knowing stuff about god it's about living out what you know and that's

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Boy, that's a difficult calling on anyone But those who do it.

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Well, um Are the ones who should shepherd the rest to do the same?

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Amen. Hey real quick I hope this video is blessing you would you do me a favor and like and subscribe to the channel? It really does help me to get this video out to more and more people.

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I really do appreciate it The most irresistible thing I ever had to say would be to show them christ And even when you're going,

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I mean it's christ in the old testament. I remember when we finished the whole new testament I Asked some people what should we do now?

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And they said could we could we the whole new testament? Could we go to the old testament and see christ in the old testament?

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And it's like the game once you know what waldo looks like you can find him so We knew what christ looked like and so I did a long series of christ in the old testament

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And when I finished that they said can we do the gospel of john again? So I did the gospel of john again so I think the combination of The exaltation that you're talking about john.

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I I'm lifted when i'm talking about christ. I'm elevated. I'm um, i'm energized

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Uh, and what comes through is it's not about yelling or style. It's about intensity and passion

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And joy and all of that and I I just found christ to be absolutely irresistible

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And all I want to do as a pastor was hide behind him Just just hide behind him and make them engage with him in the text

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Bore down as you said dig down clear the clutter And let christ put himself on display by his spirit in the minds and the hearts of the people and along with yeah, that's another great point too, which is

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Don't seek celebrity or fame The pulpit can become this weird tool

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That can very easily elevate the wrong thing to me the pulpit It's meant to display the word of god

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And if you I mean if like just picture a pulpit right if you think of that picture you've got this literal platform and at the top

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Ideally the bible lays open right? And that image

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I think can communicate something incredibly true god and his word is what should be elevated It's what should be highlighted and prioritized at any church but the pulpit can actually uh quickly elevate the preacher and it's it's

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It's crazy How easy that can happen if folks are not careful and then all of a sudden the word takes second billing to the pastor preaching it

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All of a sudden it's much more important to say something memorable and relevant as opposed to actually teaching what the bible says

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And so yeah, I like what mcarthur is saying hide behind christ Hide behind his word put jesus at the top of priority and highlight him and his teaching and his kingship

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And you'll ensure that jesus is the celebrity at your church that a great measure of patience

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Because people In a church are at whatever point they're at when you arrive because somebody they cared about took them there

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And you may think they don't have the right ecclesiology or the right theology. They need correction The worst thing you can do is impose that on them.

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You haven't earned the right to do that You've got to take them there through the pages of scripture Until they affirm in their own hearts the truth.

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So what you're doing when you exposit scripture Is not simply telling them what a text means you're showing them why it can only mean that There's no other possibility that could mean anything but that and now the text has gripped their heart

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And as you do that week after week month after month They're conformed to sound doctrine and to christlikeness

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And the process you're patiently loving them through that and I think I saw that first in christ

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Who was saying the same things to his disciples at the end of three years that he said at the front end Like oh you have little faith.

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I mean they didn't progress very well They were still arguing about who's the greatest in the kingdom at the end like they didn't get the main point um and they

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They were ridiculous when it all came to the trial on the cross and they were all over the place obviously

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Completely disconnected from the reality. They should have known So I understood even for jesus. It's hard to move people from where they are to where they need to be

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Even if you're the lord jesus christ You're going to find a massive amount of disappointment with the people in whom you invest the most

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Be really patient I love I love that. He's saying this i'm so glad that he's saying this And I think our lord gave us a great hint when he said it's better for you that I go away

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Because the spirit has been with you in me, but will be in you And that that catapults you to another level of reality spiritually speaking.

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So I think Patience as you unpack the scripture as they interact with the word of god itself and you're just You're you're just the the guy that shines the light on the text to let the text live and do its work

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That's so good Um, I love these pieces of advice You know and again if you're a pastor now or you're aspiring to be a pastor

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These are some great things to wrestle with right love god Uh love his word love the people around you

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Be an authentic human being That seeks to know god elevate christ hide behind him.

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Don't seek your own fame. This is great I would uh in closing very respectfully add one more thing to this list

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And uh, you know granted there's probably more things that even piper and macarthur would probably say Uh given the opportunity to expound a bit more but here's what

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I would add and And This was a hard lesson for me, um in church when

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I was a pastor But you need to be willing to die Dying is key to being a pastor dying well, too, by the way

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Why do I say that because without death there can be no fruit If you're somebody who wants to grow and you want to mature and learn

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Uh the hard wonderful lessons that god has for you in the midst of pastoring then what we're talking about is is bearing fruit essentially

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But jesus tells us that bearing fruit comes at the cost of dying john chapter 12 verse 24

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Truly truly I say to you unless a grain of weed falls into the earth and dies there it is

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It remains alone. But if it dies it bears much fruit Whoever loves his life loses it

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And whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life if anyone serves me pay attention pastor

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He must follow me And where I am there will my servant be also if anyone serves me.

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He said it twice The father will honor him pastors preachers teachers.

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Listen If you want to serve jesus any of you listen, you must follow him, which means you must obey his teaching

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You must seek to be like him and that requires your death and sanctification that will bear much fruit

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You need to die You need to die to yourself To your own ambitions to your own plans.

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That's what jesus means here and let god live through you Take a look at galatians 2 20

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Uh, take a look at uh, john 15 1 through 11. I'm talking about abiding in christ

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Uh, but here's what happens when you're a pastor and you don't do this Okay You refuse to die to yourself in order to perform the functions of ministry

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You know what happens one of two things you either walk away from that church Or you end up producing synthetic fruit

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Manufactured anointing I got news for you friends. It is possible for a church to look from the outside Uh from people standing from their vantage point on the outside looking in like a healthy thriving growing body

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But if you've paid attention to anything that i've said in the past, you know, that's not the true metric of spiritual health jesus pointed this out in revelation chapter 3

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Verse 1 and to the angel of the church in sardis write the words of him who has the seven spirits of god

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And the seven stars I know your works you have the reputation of being alive, but you're dead

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It is very possible for a church And its leaders to have a great reputation by other brothers and sisters and be spiritually dead as a doornail

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And those from the outside would find it hard to know the difference because The fruit that would otherwise be signs of a healthy church are actually fake

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They're synthetic And it stems from refusing to die to to allow god to put you in the ground figuratively speaking

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So that you can grow And what happens as a result the church becomes spiritually dry the movement of the work of god dries up By the way, if this is news to you

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It's probably because a lot of us just do not have a real picture of our own sin You know like like including our our pastors.

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It's almost like if you're a pastor Uh, you sin a lot less than everyone else

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Right, that's kind of the perception floating around a lot of churches, you know and so maybe the work of sanctification is probably not as involved as Some of the other people in church who desperately need more sanctification than the pastor, you know the

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That's just not true. The pastor entered seminary as a sinner He graduated as a sinner and he entered his role as a pastor a sinner

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That means he needs to die just as much as we all do the sanctification process requires it

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And guess what? There is a higher requirement placed on church's leaders Because if a pastor doesn't know how to live out

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John 12 verses 24 to 26 And show his congregation how to do the same how to die and bear fruit

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Well, how will the rest of the sheep do the same? so My humble addition to the list of advice here and it's great advice

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I mean, this is piper. This is macarthur, right? Uh, it's almost like who am I to add to this, right? mine would be

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To that that pastors need to be willing to die Uh, we need to be ready as pastors for things not to go well because they won't they won't go well every day

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People are not going to be loving and supportive to you every day The calling is tough and you're going to get hurt

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And the lord will invite you to die that's what it means to be a pastor, but my goodness the fruit

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That comes from this Will bring you closer to the lord than you ever imagined It'll make you look more like christ than ever before.

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I promise you All right, well that's all the time that I have for this video what's your take on this

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I I am curious Do you do you have advice for new pastors? I'd love to hear from actual pastors like if you're in the audience

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But I mean even if you're a congregant, uh, let me know what you think Let me know in the comments below i'd love to take a look as always if you made it this far

27:56

You got to join the patreon community even just to read the bible with me. That's totally for free We're going to the gospel of matthew right now um

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