The Problem of Evil

What is up guys, my name is KJ and this is Why Theology. So glad to be back. And I also have Jeremiah with me, man.

Hey everybody, my name is Jeremiah Nortier, frequent guest slash host on Why Theology.

KJ, thanks for having me on again, man. No problem, man. We're having a lot of technical difficulties trying to get it all together, so I'm glad his patience for enduring with me.

Patience of Job. Our patience right there. Some good patience. Yeah, man.

Well, I know once again, maybe somebody just tuning in this week and they didn't watch our last, or they heard our last podcast or something.

We have a debate coming up. When is that and where are the details about that? Yes. Thank you for bringing that up.

So February 11th at 6pm, I'll be debating at Arkansas State University.

I'm debating a Church of Christ gentleman on baptism. So we will get to kind of present our cases and talk about the importance of this.

The Church of Christ view essentially sees baptism as necessary for a right standing with God.

And I would contend to say baptism is important, but it simply demonstrates a justified heart.

Somebody that's put their faith in Christ and then they ought in works of obedience demonstrate that.

So yeah, that's February 11th, 6pm at ASU in Centennial Hall. All right.

I already know it's going to be a pretty good debate, man. What else has been going on that maybe the Lord's been teaching you lately? Well, it's funny we're talking about patience, but just patience and serving at 12

Five Church where I served at. Just patience with God's timing and discipleship with sermon preparation, with teaching, loving on the people that God has brought us.

My tendency, KJ, I want to do everything so fast the way that I see it, but I want God's perfect timing.

So that is hopefully we can talk about sanctification at some point in the future, but patience is so sanctified, you know?

Definitely, definitely. I'm mad to have patience with my football team, man. I thought we were going to go all the way this year and got let down once again, but it's okay though.

But definitely maybe in the foreseeable future, talk about sanctification because it's something every Christian goes through.

God said he would and maybe talk about the ins and outs of that. Now, I mean, all the topics that we've discussed, this one might be the most difficult and like,

I guess diving deep into the waters of the theology. And so the topic today is the problem of evil.

And so me and Jeremiah are going to try to tackle this together. And now it's always good when we're having any kind of discussion, especially about Christianity and theology to talk about what

God we're referring to. So when like you had a question Jeremiah, who is God? What comes to mind for you? Yeah.

The only true God of the scripture is the triune God, God, the father, son, holy spirit, eternal communion with one another and has revealed himself to us in his word.

And we also know by looking at creation, the world is structured in such a complex, diverse, particular way.

That's also unified that only the triune God could account for. So that's the God of Christianity is the only true

God who has revealed himself to us in his word. And I always add the fact about his asceticity, how he sustains himself by his own power, like humans, for example, we need no water, air and food, but God existed before air, water and food came into being that shows that he can keep his own.

He sustains himself. And then, like you said, the Trinity three in one and one in three, God is one, but also three persons that separates

Christianity, the God from all other religions and their false gods. And so we're talking about the God of the Bible.

Now we're dealing with the problem evil. What does the Bible say about that particular guy we're referring to in the

Bible? I know a couple of verses. Some people say is James one 13 and Psalms five and four. How would you kind of reconcile those verses?

And I can read those verses. Let me go to the James one.

If you want KJ, I'll read the James one. If you want to go to the Psalm one, um, cause

I think James one 13 has a really informative context that's worth noting, um, in this conversation about evil, how it relates to God.

So James one 13, along with 14 says, let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God for God cannot be tempted with evil.

And he himself tempts no one, but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires.

So God does not tempt us, um, in any way, like our flesh tempts us.

That's really the context is on the human level that when we see something that's luring kind of like a fish hook, you got this bait dangling out there, our flesh immediately gravitates to this.

God does not tempt us in any way, shape or form by dangling something in front of us.

Um, the tempter is Satan, right? He's constantly warring against the saints and God does not tempt us.

When we talk about God, he is in a category unique of himself.

And so what's interesting, KJ is the word tempted. Here's the same Greek word for test.

When God moves and works, he tests us. I mean, that's what he says earlier. I'm kind of all joy with my brothers.

When you go through various trials for, you know, that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.

When God moves and interact, it's, it's in the form of a test, that positive implication.

But when we are tempted in the negative sense, it's because of our flesh because of the work of the devil.

So yeah, just because God is sovereign and upholds the universal, the word of his power and as ordained whatsoever comes past, nobody in creation gets to accuse

God of any more moral failures. He's in a unique category, all of his own, and it all fits perfectly together.

Definitely. Definitely. And, um, that verse talks about how, like you said, God tempts no one.

And so it would be, it would contradict the essence of who God is, which we'll talk about later that he's truly good.

And so for God to tempt somebody, how would you kind of correlate that? If God were the one who tempted people to sin, how would that relate to his character?

Yeah, well, it would, it would fall apart because this is in the negative sense. Tempting here is something that which the devil does to us.

The tempting more specifically here is how our flesh engages with, you know, those things that are luring us in.

And so, yeah, God, God cannot tempt us in this category because he is perfectly good.

Um, he is holy and we'll get more into this, but he's the ground of all being, he's the one sustaining everything that has been created.

So yeah, it really doesn't make sense, KJ, to say that God, it's not even possible that God could tempt man in this particular category where this gets interesting and a little off topic is when we start talking about the

God being Jesus. How is it that he was truly tempted in all ways like we are, and yet was without sin?

Definitely. It's actually a good way to think about it. I'm going to let you answer that a little bit later. So I'm going to see what you think. Psalms chapter five, verse four and five, it says this for you are not a

God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell within you. Though both shall not stand in your sight.

You hate all workers of iniquity. Some translations say you hate all who commit evil, but I just want to focus on verse four.

The end of verse four says this, nor shall evil dwell within you. So it kind of is very similar to the

James patch talks about how like God has sent the one because there's no evil within God. And then right here, like God is not like take pleasure within evil.

He hates it. And so if God, we'll talk about this, but we're talking about the problem of evil. So the problem of evil in certain sense, like God's not the author of it in this sense that he's not the one that's committing the evil in the world.

That's the way you can look at it. What would you say about, I guess these two verses and I have another verse I want to talk about too. What would you say so far?

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because you have to reconcile these verses that says, you know,

God cannot tempt any man. He would not. You do have to acknowledge

God is still sovereign in some capacity. When you read passages that say God in fact is working all things together after the counsel of his will.

And for the believer, the application is all things are working together for our good, for our sanctification, those who are called according to his purpose.

So God is sovereign. He has a purpose in evil existing. It's not just randomly happening in his universe.

No, God is omniscient. In light of that omniscience, he created this world. Everything has purpose.

And that's just something that we have to understand. We've got to let God have creator categories. And when we look at human flesh and the devil, we got to have a creature category.

And so we always have to maintain those distinctions as we talk about these things. Definitely, definitely. Now I know a pretty big one.

And a lot of people talk about, we're dealing with this subject because Isaiah chapter 45 verse seven, and it's the

King James version, but it says this, I'll form light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil.

I, the Lord do all these things. How would you kind of go into that verse? Yeah. So I'm glad I actually had that pulled up too.

So this is the ESV for I form light and create darkness. I make wellbeing and create calamity, calamity.

I'm the Lord who does these things. So to me, we have to understand is that there is what we call natural evil that occurs in this world, like buildings falling over and people dying.

We have to understand that there are natural disasters that take lives. God is the author of life.

And he is also, he can take someone out. It's his prerogative. He's the author of life, right? Job understood that and said, blessed be the name of the

Lord. The Lord gives, the Lord takes away. But God is the ultimate one that determines that.

And the reason why we don't, we shouldn't, we shouldn't get mad at the creator because that's futile.

We see that in Psalm chapter two, that the nation's rage, the King's plot against God.

And yet he laughs because it's a foolish thing to try to rabble the creator in that way.

I think that that probably is talking more about natural evil, but God still is the one that has ordained whatsoever comes to pass even moral evil.

He has a purpose. There's an end. There's a, there's an end goal that God is working out for his own glory.

And he's going to display mercy, right? On whomever he wills, Romans chapter nine. And he's going to exercise justice on whomever he will.

Right. And so we understand that God is going to ultimately be glorified at the end of the day, all to the praise of the glorious grace.

Definitely. And if you look at that, obviously, like you said, there are three different types of evil. The calamity will fix more with the context as God is talking to Cyrus.

And if it's more with the context, verse six, that I may know from the rising of the sun to the seventh, there is none beside me.

I'm the Lord and there is no other. So back and forth, you see this contrast and it's kind of what verse seven is getting into that contrast once again.

Now, I guess when we continue this conversation, I like us to define a couple of terms that would help us kind of dive more into this conversation.

And I'm going to add another term. I didn't talk to you about beforehand, but let's see what you think about this. So I guess, number one, when we say like the author or something, so me and you probably both agree that God is not the author of sin, but we probably would say that God, he's the primary cause of everything that exists in the world.

Now, how do the two go against, how can we correlate those two? Because me and you, once again, we agree with that, that he's a primary cause of everything, but he's not the author of sin.

How did that go hand in hand? Yeah, we always have to define our terms because God is not the effectual author of sin.

He is not the one moving evil to come about. He uses means. I do say that God authorizes evil similar to a writer of a story, right?

If you read J .R. Tolkien and Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, there's a lot of evil that goes about, but J .R.

Tolkien and Lord of the Rings or J .K. Rowling is not the effectual author of the characters actually carrying out these evil, but the whole story was kind of determined by the writer, and they are free to do that.

God is free to create a world that he sees fit, and so that's how

I want to help people understand. So, he uses means to bring about that end cause.

This doesn't totally capture everything. I do think there's some mystery attached to it, but God permits

Satan to do what he wants. Now, that whole dialogue was ordained to happen, but when

Satan wanted to afflict Job, he had to have permission by God, and so God determined this world for that to take place, and he uses the means of Satan to afflict

Job, and yet Job does not say, I blame Satan. I'm mad at him.

He humbly acknowledged the sovereign creator and say, the Lord gives. The Lord takes away.

Blessed be the name of the Lord. I think that's a really good way of looking at it, KJ. I think it's James 511 that says, you've seen the end purpose of the

Lord to display mercy and compassion. God had a plan in it all. He had a purpose in it all, but look at the means that he used.

Martin Luther said, the devil is God's devil, right? It's like a dog on a leash, and he can only go where God allows him to.

Now, some of our fellow brothers would say the devil's bound, so we have to be careful by saying he's on a leash.

But yeah, I like what you said, that God's not the author of evil, but he does authorize it.

That's a cool way to think of it, that again, even the story of Job is a perfect example that Job wasn't getting, the devil was the person that was doing all those things to Job, but God knew about it the whole time he allowed it.

In any moment, he could have easily prevented it, but he allowed it to happen. The same today, we're going to talk about this later, but the problem of evil, the same things today that we see around murder, rape, stealing.

I always have to be careful about some of these topics because people, how we view God, and maybe God's evil because he allowed things to happen.

We'll talk about that a little bit later. That's how we define the author and then a primary cause.

Another one, how can we define free will? Because it's going to be kind of helpful as we get into some of the deep questions about the evil.

Yeah. I think there's just really two major categories that people interact with.

I mean, there's a lot of philosophy that goes into this, but essentially you have what's called libertarian free will, and then you also have another understanding of what's called compatibilistic free will.

Those are the two terms, and just to define them quickly, libertarian free will says that in any given moment, talking about people, we have the ability to choose to do otherwise.

It's not foreordained. It's not predestined. We live in this undeterministic world, and the power to choose rests solely in the believer or unbeliever or the person.

It's left with them. To me, I think that actually doesn't ... I don't think that that's possible given the attributes that God actually has, but we can get more into that.

Then compatibilistic free will, I actually like quoting Proverbs 16 verse 9 that says, man chooses, makes his plans according to his heart, and yet God has determined or purposed his steps.

Basically, what it says is the free that we experience is what we truly desire to do according to our heart.

I'm sitting here talking with you, and I'm choosing to do that. That's compatible with God foreordaining it before the foundation of the world.

Just to help people too, man can't mirror this in the sense that we can't create robots that truly feel and have volition to make those kind of choices.

They're mechanical. They have a program. Even artificial intelligence cannot feel.

Truly, that's the best man can do, but that doesn't truly reflect what God has done.

You can add to it too. I know R .C. Sproul talks about how humans, we're human beings, but obviously

God is a divine being. Even in the garden, man wasn't totally free because there were restrictions.

Man could do only so much that God allowed them to do, but yet with God, there is no restrictions. You see how that free will is limited only to the choices that God allows his creation to do.

That's your favorite term, the creature -creator distinction right there. We see that all throughout the scriptures.

Mankind only is able to do what God allows them to do because he's the creator. It makes sense. He has authority to tell us what to do.

Now, how does that, I guess, it falls into another category, which is determinism. Many people say mankind can determine, as you said earlier, their future, for example.

Many preachers preach that, but how would that relate to this topic of the problem?

Yeah, there's a few different terms I want people to be familiar with. Under determinism, you have what's known as soft determinism or hard determinism.

Then you have a different category of indeterminism. That's where libertarian free will fits under that.

Then there's a secular philosophical term within determinism, and it's fatalism.

It's worth distinguishing all these things because fatalism, we'll go and start with saying how that can't work.

Fatalism says that since the universe is set, everything is being moved by fate.

Some impersonal force makes everything fixed. It's arbitrary. I would say that's a form of hard determinism.

Really, since everything is arbitrary based on this impersonal force, nothing has meaning.

I think Ecclesiastes would say that everything under that model would be meaningless like grasping for air.

Fatalism does not begin to touch what theological determinism we're trying to get at.

Hard determinism says it doesn't matter what you choose to do because God's already predetermined it to happen.

We would say that that doesn't seem to represent the biblical model, and it doesn't really comport with our experience either.

We would just challenge that definition of hard determinism concluding that it doesn't matter.

I would say the contrary. Because God has foreordained and purposed whatsoever comes past, especially in my life, what

I do actually has meaning because it's grounded in that Trinitarian counsel.

A lot of this is semantics, KJ. It's how you define terms and ultimately what does the

Bible teach. That's what we want to get back to. Soft determinism says absolutely what we choose to do is compatible with what

God has ordained. I love what Dr. James White has pointed out is the incarnation truly brings meaning to our world and shows us that it matters to God and it matters on our side of things too because God the

Son took on flesh and dwelt among us. You can't just say what hard determinism says is it's all like binary code and it's all going to happen and it's basically like fatalism and it doesn't matter.

We're saying no, it's compatible because God stepped into that creation and he's the one upholding it all and he is the one that redeems man.

God is letting his plan of redemption unfold. I just say that soft determinism reflects the biblical outlook and you got to understand free will in terms of compatibilistic free will.

Definitely. I like to think of it too. Let me read the confession here first and I'll explain it, but chapter three of the confession says from our attorney

God has decreed everything that occurs without reference anything outside himself. He did this by his perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and intangible yet God did this in such a way that he is into the author of sin nor has any fellowship with sin.

This part is kind of key right here says this decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes.

On the contrary, these are established by God's decrees and this decree God's wisdom is displayed and directing all things in his power and faithfulness.

So you can, I like to go like this way too because in the Bible, like you said, you have the scripture teaching both. You have the scripture teaching of his

God's sovereignty, but also man's responsibility, free will. They go hand in hand. You can't inseparable as Charles Spurgeon would say.

Now, um, I think the story in acts, I forget which chapter it is. Maybe acts two when

Peter said preaching to like the crowds and he says, you know, all these things happen as your hand destiny or determined as some translations may say.

Now that doesn't mean that the people in the audience, like God forced them to do all those things that he determined to happen.

The Old Testament predicted how the Messiah would die, but no, God was using the free will of the creatures, us humans and our sin to accomplish his means to bring about the

Messiah's death on the cross. And so you hear God's sovereignty. God knew in eternity past that is what his plan was, which is having a side down the cross.

But at the same time you had free creatures acting now, you know, making decisions that God used those decisions to bring about the death.

What do you think about that? That's good. Um, what I, what I think is interesting because I've listened to Christian philosophers online, they try to say that God has decreed man's libertarian decisions and work that out.

And I'm saying that's a contradiction in terms. And this is what I try to dial it back to KJ is if God is omniscient, truly and omnipotent, then he determined to create this world and everything in it, declaring the end from the beginning so that, his counsel and purposes would stand.

And so from God's perspective, it's all set. And we just need to let the creator be the creator and trust him and pray for his mercy in our lives and so forth.

Um, so, and this is another thing, if someone affirms God's omniscience before the foundation of the world, then what they have to understand is they are in a hard position to account for because man cannot truly choose to do otherwise in any given moment, if God is omniscient and then created this world.

Um, they, you would simply be falling back in this compatibilistic position saying, well, yeah,

God foreknows what I'm going to do. Um, and we're over here saying absolutely because he's omniscient.

He's not forcing you, right? He's upholding the universe and has ordained for any moment, what you feel, what you're going to do.

I've heard some people say, well, he's not, doesn't care about my socks that I put on. He created this world that was going to come about in a particular way.

And one of the best verses to illustrate that is the last verse of Proverbs 16, um, that says, um, the, the, we cast the lot, but it's every decision is of the

Lord. And that's, that's a good illustration to say that even random things to us, maverick molecules bouncing around, whether we put on socks, all these meaningless mundane things,

God has a purpose in it. We just don't get to see the big picture. And last thing I want to say, KJ is every position has to give a theodicy.

They have to give an account of evil. And for the person that wants to uphold libertarian freewill and yet say, but God was omniscient before he created the world.

Well, they, they have to give an account just like us. And this is going to sound just like what the reform position says.

Well, yeah, God knew, right. But, um, I'm trying to think God is still the primary first cause.

And so we're saying, how is it even possible? Because if, if I truly had the ability to choose to do otherwise, it would actually limit

God's omniscience in some way. And then I think it would contradict it. He wouldn't be omniscient anymore.

Um, that's why some people adopt what's called open theism, that God doesn't know the future because if he did, then we wouldn't be free creatures.

And I'm over here saying, how about just let God be God and let us be the creatures. And we truly choose according to our heart's desire.

Yeah. Paul tells us in Ephesians one verse 11 in him. Also, we have attained inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counts of his will.

And so when you think about that word, all, I mean, all means all without exception. Right. And so everything in human history is happening from God.

Go ahead. Yeah. The reason all means all of there is because it's talking about God's all encompassing attributes.

We always look at the word all in its context. A lot of times when we talk about God desires that all men be saved.

Well, that's in a particular context of all men without distinction, not without exception.

And so, but we're talking about God who is, um, all, um, for of him through him and to him are all things to whom be the glory.

Well, absolutely. That's all encompassing, right? All things are working together after God's counsel to the praise of his glorious grace.

Definitely. And then again, um, the confession in chapter three, paragraph two says, did you mention it?

It says, God knows everything that could happen under any given condition. However, his decrees of anything is not based on foreseeing in the future or vicinity recurring in such conditions.

So it's like, it's not like guys looking down at the history, okay. He's saying, okay, KJ and Jermiah are going to have this podcast. Okay. Now, let me not, now let me at, but no guys determine, like it's basically arguing a soft determinism.

You have God's sovereignty and freedom going together using the second cause of man, but also he's so sovereign.

He knew he planned it out. Exactly. That would happen the way it did. So I go hand in hand. Now you mentioned the word earlier, but the odyssey, this is what we're dealing with right now.

The study of evil. Many people call it now we're defining evil. Again, we're talking about the odyssey.

How does the Bible define evil? I kind of put a little header on this. Is it a person? Is it an action? What else would we define evil as Jermiah to you?

It's interesting because I've always been intrigued with this question because we're asking, what is the ontoss of evil?

What is it? Right? Because we don't want to say evil is merely the absence of good, right?

It is in a way, like we would say that darkness is the absence of light, but it's not just a mere absence.

There's something there. I forget which philosopher tried to say, look, you have a donut, right?

And in the hole, there's nothing there. So it's not satisfying to say that it's merely the absence of good.

There's something there. So there's an ontology there. Evil exists in the world.

And so I think what we get at is evil is kind of twofold.

It begins in the heart of man. There's obviously other angelic beings that are evil, and it carries out into actions.

So I didn't know if you want to chime in on that. Yeah. I like what you said. I like to think of it too, because a lot of times when we think about evil, we're thinking about like the,

I know most people would mind me to go to like the evil that's in the world. Is God the author of the evil that's going on in the world? Many Calvinists preach that God is sovereign.

So that must mean that God has to offer. If he's predetermined he must have predetermined evil to happen in the world.

And so many people think of God being, you know, the author of evil in that sense. And so if that's true, just, you know, granting that, you know, that thinking, 1

John 3 says this, whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness and sin is lawlessness. And you know that when he was manifested, he can't take away sins.

Whoever buys in is not sin. And you guys know that verse, but John defines sin as breaking the law.

How can God break his own law? God is perfect and holy and just, so he can't go against his law for God to break his law, for God to sin that would make, we would all be in trouble because how could the

Messiah die on the cross if he was not perfect. And so for God to be the author of sin, it would contradict who he is in essence.

What's your take on that? Well, I thought you did a good job explaining it. Evil has that moral component like we're talking about.

And then earlier we mentioned how there are natural evils as well. So yeah,

God can be sovereign. Another phrase that we've used KJ that I really like is God uses sin sinlessly.

That's only possible because of the creator creation distinction. The creator is qualitatively different than what he created.

So he's able to uphold and sustain his creation to plan it out in such a particular way without him being that effectual, that's key, without being the effectual cause or author of evil.

Definitely. And we've already quoted many scriptures about that, but just for somebody that's kind of interested, the story of Job, I think the

Genesis 26 with Abimelech, the people that killed Jesus, Peter tells us in Acts, all those things that happened by the hand of the

Lord, but yet God did not sin at all. He just used it to bring about his means. Again, using the free will of mankind to orchestrate his plan throughout history.

Perhaps Genesis 50 verse 20 brings this full circle. You got

Joseph's brothers, all of their evil actions they intended to bring harm, evil.

And yet you have God, the same verb, yet God intended it for good. That's, that's compatibilism.

God is not using libertarian free creatures that he doesn't know their actions.

And you can't just say he foreknows it. Well, he foreknows it because he sustains his creation and has planned it out.

I really do think KJ, to say that man has the ability to choose otherwise in the libertarian sense would necessarily negate

God's omniscience. That's good. Well said, man. Now, when we think about this, now that we define, you know, author, primary cause, free will, and determinism, how does all that tie into the theodicy of the study of evil?

Is God responsible? Yeah, well, all those terms are important because everybody has to give a theodicy.

Everyone, even the atheists, they have to try to give an account for the evils that happen in this place.

You got false religions that try to say that it's illusory, that it's actually not real. And that's not satisfying to the human soul.

We know evil exists. And as Christians, God has revealed that. We actually can know where evil came about.

It stems back to Adam and Eve with Satan in the garden. And we're going to get into how there was a process there.

There's an even more fundamental original sin before original sin with man. So I think what it's going to come down to is if someone's going to hold to God's omniscience, they're going to say behind every evil act is a

God that knew it was going to happen and could stop it.

Or he's just like, I'm over here. I'm just, I'm allowing it to happen for my own purposes.

And I'm just on standby watching and hoping that you make the right decision. To me, that's very unsatisfying because God is allowing so much evil that he didn't really want to happen.

And I think the correct biblical narrative is that God has purpose in all things. Everything relates together because he is the creator of all things and he has purpose, right?

He's working it out. And so, yeah, when you look at an evil action, you can say, God, you mean this for good.

I can't necessarily see this in this moment, but you've told me to be thankful in all things and to rejoice in all things, because this is for my good and for my sanctification.

And so I think from the reform perspective, people can say, God is the creator as defined by the scripture, and he is good.

He is working all things together for his glory and end purposes. Nothing is going to catch him off guard.

And he's not this lower, in my mind, I know people would be mad at me, but he's not just on the sideline rooting you on.

No, God's the sovereign creator. He has purpose in all things. Well said, man.

Well said. Now we think about that, Jermiah, now that we kind of sit at some of these things, can we as Christians say that even as if you're a

Calvinist or you believe in God's sovereignty, you don't like the term Calvinist, but you say you believe in God's sovereignty, and we all have to as Christians, right?

Can we as Christians articulate and say that God is the author of evil? Or even an atheist, if they say

God is the author of evil, how can we go about talking about that based on the scripture we've kind of already dealt with today? We simply want to distinguish what we're talking about.

I think we can emphatically say, no, God is not the author of evil. What do we mean by that is he's not effectually causing evil on that secondary means like we talked about earlier.

God is not, you don't see this magical hand come out of the sky with a giant gun prodding you to do evil.

That's the kind of the absurdity we're saying, no, God is not the author of evil in that sense.

Now the Layton Flowers people that I respect, love them, a lot of people in the SBC world.

They're really trying to get us to admit that God is the author of creation of everything, and that would include evil.

We're saying, yeah, there's no moral fault of God for being the creator of all things.

Those are biblical categories. He's even created the wicked for the day of destruction. So what we distinguish though is that he is authorizing evil, just like J .R.

Tolkien is authorizing the whole book of Lord of the Rings. You're free to do that without being morally culpable for the atrocities that happen within that.

We're saying God gets to do that on an even bigger scale, this three -dimensional world that he transcends. We just want to ease people's consciences and say, no,

God is not the author of evil, but we still got to explain it and that everybody has to explain it.

I think you and I have talked about it before, there is mystery involved. We don't have the omniscient mind of God, but in his word, he's revealed to us that he is sovereign and we truly are responsible with it.

Definitely. Also for the atheists who may say, well, God is evil, they have several problems in it because obviously in their worldview, they can't even articulate what is morality because we're all just an accident.

There's no purpose. Many people say we're evolved from monkeys or animals. We're just animals doing what's in our nature.

They have to steal from the Christian worldview to even make sense of morality. That's a whole other discussion. We would still say, no to that, the

God is not the author of evil. Like you already said, he used secondary causes. The second part, I think I forgot who it was.

Was it Plato or Socrates that came up with this idea, the youthful dilemma? Basically, it was this, that God, can he do something and call it good?

Or is there a standard that God loves and he does something because it's good? For example, the dilemma is if God, let's say, for example, if God says murder and rape is okay, does that make it good because God said it so?

Or does God not lie and say not to lie because it's good? The dilemma is that, let's go to the that means that God has looked to a standard outside himself, which means

God's not God. And on the other front, can God say murder is okay tomorrow and people can start murdering?

Well, we obviously say no, there's no dilemma there because God cannot contradict himself. In his essence, he's truly perfect in goodness.

So he must always hate the opposite of goodness. And so there's no dilemma here. I'll let Jermiah deal with that as well.

That's good. We would say as Christians with the Christian worldview that it's a false dilemma.

There's a third option. God is not subservient to these laws outside of himself.

Another point that usually gets brought up is the laws of logic. God is not bending the knee to some abstract law out there.

And it's the same with morality. There's not a standard outside of himself. Then the other side of the dilemma says, oh, well,

God can just arbitrarily say what is good, and then that's good. And we want to always stay away from what's arbitrary.

The scriptures teach something different, a third option, if you will. Goodness reflects the nature of God, similar to logic reflects the mind of God.

And so it's much deeper than just what God says is good. That is the ultimate standard.

Goodness reflects the character of God. And so, yeah, that gets into some interesting,

I think, practical things like what about when God told

Abraham to sacrifice his son? Well, for one, we have the biblical categories to know that Abraham is obligated to obey

God. And the scripture tells us that Abraham knew that God was going to keep his promise of using

Isaac to bless all the nations. So he knew that he is the God of resurrection. And so we see the wonderful faith that Abraham had in God to accomplish his purposes.

So there's also distinction between murder and killing. And I guess that's kind of different.

But what I was going to say is where this practically plays out is murder is wrong, because God is not a murderer.

We're made in his image. And we're all image bearers of God. And we're to honor and respect one another as Imago Dei.

But this is where God gets to move in a qualitatively different state than us, meaning that when

God takes a life, it's not the same as when we kill justly or we murder wrongly.

God is the author and creator of life. He's written all of our days in a book and has ordained that for us, literally is what

Psalm 139 talks about. So the Uthro dilemma is a false dilemma.

We would just say goodness reflects who God is. He's not doing things arbitrarily, but with purpose, because the beginning from the end is going somewhere.

It's been determined according to God's purposes. Arbitrary can't even come into the picture because like I said,

God has a purpose in all things. Definitely, definitely. Now, again, like I said, in chapter three, the confession,

I know people say even Westminster question, but I'm talking about the confession, talks about how God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

And now if that's true, and even the writers of confession, even me, you argue for like a self deterministic, you know, view of this scriptures, how does someone, you know, even me and you can hold aside determinism and not say that God's responsible for evil.

And now I guess people, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because people are straight, they strictly goes right to the

Adam and Eve and they go to the devil. And now this is where we're like, you know, we have, you know, we can kind of explain

Adam and Eve and we'll get to the devil later, but let's just start with Adam and Eve first. You know, if God has determined all things to happen, that means

God determined that Adam and Eve will fall. It's what people thinking is I'm going to talk in this song mess up my plan.

Yeah. So yeah. So Adam and Eve, everything that happened,

God purposed that way. He wasn't caught off guard. Even though the

Adam and Eve's choices were not marred by sin, their choices were still compatible with God's sovereignty.

And I like the new King James and James, uh, rendering, uh, revelation 13,

I think it's eight. You have to double check me on that. It talks about how Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

This entails that God purposed that God, the son would be the, the lamb to accomplish redemption.

And I have to look this up real quick, but first Peter chapter one, I think around verse 20 doing this off the top of the dome.

So talking about Jesus being a lamb without blemish or spot, precious blood of Jesus, he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in these last times for the sake of you.

That's wonderful. It's not that God just learned knowledge and looked into the future, but Jesus had a purpose in the mind of God.

It was foreknown to happen. It was determined beforehand. A lot of times for determination and foreknow go hand in hand, especially in a loving context.

Um, I think foreknow here is talking about how the blood of Christ, um, the lamb without blemish was foreknown for your sake, right?

It was done out of love. And so this was the plan of God. God had it all beautifully planned out how it was going to be accomplished.

And when people say, well, how can God ultimately determine, you know, people to reject?

And I'm like, look, God is going to be just in that. It's not like they're wanting really bad to believe in him and they just weren't elected.

So just too bad for them. And they just going to be over there sad. No, what's also compatible with God's determining the reprobate is that they are

God haters. They truly from the heart hate the things of God and they would rather stay in their sin and die in that sinful state.

So what's God's purpose in that justice, holiness, and to exercise wrath for sinners that choose to do those things.

So we always just try to fall back on these biblical categories that God does take responsibility for the world that he created, but on a human level, he's also going to hold us accountable for what we choose according to our hearts.

Now, again, you know, Adam and Eve is not as, as speculative as, you know, the devil could mean evil, but I guess we can think about this angle.

Well, I guess your opinion be on this matter. So Adam and Eve, they were perfect in the sense that there was no sin within them.

What do you think the idea even to be tempted with, um, committing sin came from?

Yeah, well, the Bible is actually very clear that they were tempted, not by God, but by Satan, right?

That, that serpent of old. And what's interesting is they were living in this perfect environment of bliss, communing with the, with the creator.

And then you had this other person, this other personal agent stepping into their context, in some ways, expanding their mind to consider new options, right?

Talking about the knowledge of the tree of good and evil and saying, oh, you'll be like God with all this knowledge. Well, that's a game changer because like I said, that expands the mind of Eve and Adam, knowing not to, because of what

God and him had talked about, but just passively letting it happen. So it's almost easy to see the secondary means that God used to bring, um,

Adam and Eve's disobedience. It was Satan, right? Remember what Luther said, the devil is

God's devil. So in my opinion, it's easy to see how, um, original sin happened with men.

Uh, God permitted, ordained, um, Satan to be that secondary means, right?

To ultimately attempt Eve, who was deceived and Adam passively let it happen.

And him being the male, um, obviously we all died in Adam as our federal head. I heard the other question follow up.

Well, somebody may say, if the devil never tempted Adam and Eve, would they have sinned? How would you answer that one? So I'll say that again.

If, if, oh, if, um, the devil hadn't tempted them, would they have sinned? I would say no.

I got you. I got you. Now somebody else that say, you know, especially atheists, well, why would God allow that to happen? You know, if he knew that the devil would tempt them and they would in fact sin, what was the point of, you know, even allowing that to happen?

I would say, excellent question. The Bible on a handful, a handful of places actually answers that.

I think Ephesians one ultimately is the best, but you got God and all of his attributes, this, um, divine, simple being that is father, son, and Holy spirit communing with one another, perfect harmony, um, loving relationship and that sovereign triune

God determined to put, um, his glory on display his glory, namely being his attributes, love, grace, mercy, patience.

Um, and those are the ones that everybody likes, but also God's attributes until justice, holiness.

And so in a world where their sin loves response and justices response to sin is wrath.

And so how are you going to put that on display? If you create a world, we have to determine a world where evil enters into the picture so you can redeem a people that does not deserve it.

So the full range of God's glory is put on display. That is the reason why, whether somebody likes it or not,

I'm just saying, how do I know that God's revealed that to us in his word? Yeah. I think it was

Johnny Mack actually helped me think about that too. Did like God gets more glorified by allowing evil to happen about, cause you think about this, like, you know,

God's more concerned about his glory. He's not concerned about human's glory. It's about his glory, right? We are, we exist to give

God glory. That's our purpose in life. God does not exist for us. We exist for him because he's the, he's the most glorious thing out there.

There's nothing better than worshiping God because he's the most desirable thing to worship. Right. And, um, this next thing we think about, you know, how did the devil fall?

Cause you know, you got this big, this angelic being he's in heaven, perfect place. He's in the presence of God.

And yet what is the idea to even sin against a holy being in heaven, even come from we have everything you could ever want in heaven, the presence of God, other angels, and yet this being he sins.

And I think Johnny Mack says some Timothy was that God had to store it to where he can get the most glory. Now I know somebody will object, especially at this, but like what you said is true

KJ that we exist for God and God cares by his glory. You know, why did God even create humans or angels if he already was glorious?

And then on the front, the flip side, you know, we talked about the devil sending in heaven. So what's your thoughts on those things?

So many things KJ. Um, I think, I think it's Ephesians three, the talks about putting the manifold wisdom on God on display for the angelic hosts and with equally say for man.

So did God have to put his glory in this display? We'd say, no, he chose to do that.

So it didn't have to, he's a necessary being in of himself. Um, we are contingent beings.

This world is contingent on God's necessary existence, being eternal. So yeah,

God chose to do that. And we are spectators if you will. But when we start talking about evil, um, before Adam and Eve, um,

R .C. Sproul referred to as Adam, the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden as the mystery of iniquity.

And personally, I'm with Johnny Mack and a lot of other theologians said, well, that's kind of easy because when Satan walked onto the scene, it was a game changer for them.

The real mystery of iniquity is how did evil find itself in the heart of Satan?

Now he's a incorporeal being he's angelic. So they don't have hearts, but they're volitional creatures.

So how did that desire for evil pride, namely enter into the heart of Satan?

That is a tough, tough question. Now, uh, there's a few verses that come to mind that I always want to caution myself and anybody else willing to at least talk about and speculate a little bit about this.

First Corinthians 4, 6 says not Paul's warning for us not to go beyond what is written.

And so we always want to guard ourself, KJ. I know you agree with me that we want to stick to what the Bible says and be very cautious about what it does not say.

This is an area where the Bible is silence. However, there are biblical principles that we can use to apply and talk about how that comes about.

But I'm also reminded of Deuteronomy 29, it says the secret things belong to the Lord, our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever that we may do all of what the words of the law say.

So there are certain secret things to God that we don't know. We don't want to go beyond scripture.

But if we look to certain principles, we may can speculate and say at the end of the day, we still don't know.

So before, I don't know if you want to chime in here. Um, but before I tell you what

I think happened, not with certainty, but I want to tell you what I don't think it is first, if you're okay with that.

Yeah. Let me read some verses to, to kind of give us a background about this too, because you know, many people say, well, does the

Bible even explain the fallen devil? Isaiah 14 verse 12, it says this, how you are father from heaven.

Oh, Lucifer, son of the morning, how you are cut down to the ground. You are weak in the nations for you have said in your heart,

I will ascend to heaven. I'll exalt my throne by the stars of God. I will also sit on the Mount of congregation and the farther sides of the

North. I will send about the heights of the clouds. I would like the most high yet. You should be brought down to show the lowest depth of the pit.

And so what we're dealing with right now is saying verse 13 for you have said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven.

I will exalt my throne with the stars of God. How is it possible for a being that's perfect with no saying to him to even have the idea to go against God in the presence of God in heaven?

I think there's another place now, Ezekiel 28. Let me go there real quick. You can read it. You can get that before me.

Yeah, I'm actually there. I was, I was tracking with you, KJ. So it gives kind of another account, like you were talking about.

Most theologians agree that this is referring behind the human King, but to, you know, an original ruling entity that was corrupted.

And so I wanted to pull this up and perhaps a couple different translations, but I want to read at least focusing on verse 14,

Ezekiel 28, where God essentially is addressing Lucifer, a pre -fallen

Satan, right? You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you and you were on the holy mountain of God in the midst of the stones of the fire you walked.

And so what I'm interested is that phrase anointed guardian cherub. I think some translations say that is a covering cherub.

And the idea, and now this is speculation, there seems to be some preeminence with Lucifer in regards to the rest of them.

One way that I've thought about it is you've got all these other angelic beings down here, kind of lower, and then halfway between where God is resting and those angels is you have this covering cherub, kind of covering the glory of God.

And the other angels can only kind of gaze through Lucifer being this anointed guardian cherub or covering cherub.

Don't know how accurate that is, but it's a good picture for me to see. And that's kind of the picture that we're painting though, is there is some preeminence with Lucifer and his pre -fallen state.

Yeah, definitely too. When you think about it, just to make sure, cause you know, I know there's some kind of, you know, parallel between the guys,

I was talking to the King of Tyree, but then they also started talking to Lucifer as well. So just so I know, we're talking about Lucifer, verse 13 says you were in Eden, the garden of God.

Obviously King Tyree couldn't have been in, you know, garden of Eden because that was in the creation, right? So we have to be talking about Lucifer.

Now, the second aspect too, there's two types of angels. I guess you'd say regular angels and archangels. These are angels with,

I guess, more superior to regular angels. We're given the story of, you know, Satan, Lucifer, we have

Michael, the archangel, and we also have Gabriel. These are the only angels that I know of in Scripture that we see who are mentioned more frequently than other angels.

And I also agree pretty more than that. I'm not, you know, I'm not from heaven, so I can't tell you that, but I'm going there. So we can talk about when we get to heaven and we see this, but definitely see many people say,

I don't know why I got this idea, but many people say that, you know, the devil, he was God's most, you know, anointed cherub.

He was the strongest angel. He had all these beauties, all those things, right, that we've heard about the devil, and yet he sinned.

And I'm going to let Jermiah kind of tackle this, see his opinion about this is. Yeah. So we're proceeding with caution, but something that I don't think works is when you think about the context, you have

Lucifer that's created as a holy angel, anointed cherub, covering cherub.

He is holy internally, everything about him. And then externally, there's nothing but holiness, other holy angels, singing praise to God and God himself and his kind of glory being holiness.

So you can't say, ah, the answer is libertarian free will.

He just chose. I'm saying that actually doesn't even work as a plausible answer because where would the compulsion of sin come from?

It's not going to be external and it's not going to be internal. So free will does not work in my opinion, humble, unbiased opinion here.

So we don't know, but I want to recommend there is a

YouTube video that John Piper did kind of quoting Jonathan Edwards, I think about how he wrestled through some of these things.

And I thought when I listened to this video, where did the desire for evil come from within Satan?

I thought this is the best possible explanation that we could probably get. And they pointed to two verses, but I want to kind of illustrate it first.

So since there's this dilemma of everything externally, there's holiness and internal holiness.

We know that God is sovereign. He is the, he is the unmoved mover in some real sense.

He has to initiate all of his creation. Now we don't get to level

God with evil, right? Because he's the creator and we're all part of the creation. So it's his prerogative, how he wants to move about in his world.

So Edwards and Piper talk about perhaps God somehow cloaked his glory, his goodness from within Satan.

Okay. Now you're just like, whoa, Jeremiah, hold the brakes. Why would we ever think about that? Well, in Isaiah chapter 63 verse 17, we get a principle.

So we admit at the very forefront that this is talking about the people of Israel, the prophet

Isaiah, and there's a context with that, but perhaps there's a principle here. This verse, the prophet says,

Oh Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so that we fear not you return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Now there's something interesting because, Oh Lord, Yahweh here, the prophet is saying, you make us wander from your ways.

You harden our hearts. How though? When he says return. So in some unexplainable way,

God seems to be able to remove his goodness where the prophet here feels that and is pleading for him to return.

So if we go into Isaiah chapter 64, there's one more verse, KJ Isaiah 64 verse seven, very similar.

There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take a hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

So the idea is what if God is able to cloak his glory, hide his goodness, hide his face from Lucifer's heart in such a way, the only thing that is left is evil, pride, the ability to discern this context and say,

Hey, I desire to be like the one on high. So what

I like about that is it illustrates that God is sovereign. We see principles of that being consistent.

And perhaps God is able to cloak and hide his goodness within Satan in such a way that it's not just a privation, an absence of holiness, but there's a real ontology now of evil.

And that's what Satan desires. And God always holds man accountable for what he chooses.

And he holds angels accountable for what they choose. The only difference is angels, fallen angels do not have any chance of redemption.

God doesn't owe them that. It's only out of his goodness and mercy. And KJ, this is for free.

I thought it was always interesting. I've always pondered deeply about angels. I think about how they're almost the opposite of us.

We are physical beings with the spiritual reality. They are spiritual beings with this physical aspect, right?

And yet we have questions about angels and the Bible tells us that they long to look into the things of redemption.

They look at us, they're scratching their head. They've never experienced. Definitely, man. I think what you said, and obviously

John Piper and Jonathan Edwards, I think what they're saying is very like, as obviously we believe in solar scriptural, let the script interpret itself.

Right. First Timothy 5 21 says, if I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels, that you deserve these things without prejudice.

Paul talks about Romans nine, how God has made vessels prepared for destruction and also vessels prepared for grace that his glory may be shown.

Right. Talked about earlier how like, um, God's most concerned about his glory and what have

God designed to make us? Obviously he didn't have to, but he chose to do this. He's God. If you'd ever want to just go and think with John Piper and Edwards, what if he had this story right here?

Because it would give him the most glory through this story. I was again, once again, does not need humans, but this is the story that he chose to get the most glory.

He chose, like you said, in some unique way to remove his goodness from Satan's heart, sinlessly.

Of course he did this without sinning in and of himself, but he allowed the devil and his freaking free thinking, secondary causes to have the thought, to be evil, obviously to commit acts against God.

And this would bring about the story of redemption, how the Messiah will come and deliver the people. What's your thoughts about that?

Especially the first 70, 21 or five. I think you, you nailed it.

Um, we always have to keep in mind that creator creation distinction. I mean, Paul literally says that in Romans chapter one.

So yeah, God can use the means of Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. And yet God can effectually do a work within Satan's heart.

And since he's the creator and sustainer of all things, he does not get charged with being morally responsible and doing something evil.

He's the ground of all being. He not only defines goodness, but he exuberates goodness, right?

And goodness reflects who he is. Now, man, just wrapping up here.

How does all this, the odyssey would, again, talking about the study of evil. We talked about some very deep, the logical things here, right?

But what good is theology if it does not go to the heart, right? How does this theology go to the heart and Christians were also unbelievers.

Cause like you said, everybody has to find the problem evil, but how does this theology, the odyssey point to Jesus and the personal work that he did for us on the cross?

What a wonderful question, KJ and a super practical one. I almost want to paint a picture of God's sovereignty for every person, believer or unbeliever alike, but for the believer,

I will say this KJ, perhaps Romans 8, 28 and 29 haven't become more practical and even more practical in talking about the problem of evil, because when somebody is going through the worst kind of atrocity that they could conceive of, lost a loved one, is being sick, you know what

I mean? Just anything. You as a believer in Christ, there is therefore now no condemnation for us, right?

That's kind of setting the context. We realize that God is working all things together for our good, right?

And then he tells us that it's us who are called according to his purpose. And we say, what is that good?

What is that good, Jeremiah? How can there be good in the midst of this awfulness that's going on in my life?

Well, he says, he's conforming you to the image of his son. There is actually purpose in what you're going through.

You're hurt in pain. First Peter chapter 167 says it's to mold your faith, to refine it as though it's going into to fire and coming out even more valuable and precious.

That's why James chapter one says, count it as joy, because this is testing in your life.

When God moves, it's testing, right? And he uses these secondary means that we perceive as negative.

And they truly are negative, right? When we see real evils that happen, but we can look to God and say, ah, he is working all these things together for my good.

And Romans, you've been drumming this all night, but Romans 11 36 is for of him and through him and to him are all things to whom be the glory forever.

So in a simple statement, KJ, why does, why does evil happen specifically in my life where whether it's moral evil or natural evil, it's for my sanctification and for God's glory.

Definitely man. Wonderful. Wonderful said, and obviously I always enjoyed this, but for Christians, you're on the winning side, even though right now it may seem, what is it?

First John chapter five. I think it says, John says something along the lines of this, that like the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

I mean, you go outside right now, turn the news. It seems like evil was winning. It seemed like darkness as engulfing the earth. Satan is winning.

I think people are dying and going to hell. It's all around you. Right. But yet the Bible tells us that we're going to win inside.

I know this, many people don't like him at times, but Billy Graham, he says, you know, I looked at revelation and read it. It's not, he got kind of courage because he says

I'm on the winning team. I think that's applies to us today too, because you look at revelation. It tells you how

God's going to finish everything, but also that how God conquers. And if we, us who are trusting in Jesus, we'll cover today as well, obviously to the

P perseverance of the saints, we will persevere in Christ because the Holy spirit of the inside of us. And so I think it's so encouraging that even though there is a problem, you were out there,

God is already dealing with it. Obviously at the cross, he's still dealing with it now. And he'll do away with it when he returns again.

And so we have no need to worry about it. And we could just trust in our God. I believe it was in Genesis, Abraham, kind of the guy, you know,

Solomon Gomorrah is going to get destroyed. And Abraham's worried about getting destroyed in the midst of Solomon and Gomorrah.

And he's, he brings it for God. We're not the judge of our creation, do what is right. And then we're saying,

I mean, Jeremiah is saying here is that yes, God will do what's right. You can trust in that sovereign God.

So in the last words, man, the chief end of man is to enjoy

God and to, um, or to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.

That, that speaks to the heart of Christians, right? To glorify God and to enjoy him forever, but God will get his glory in one of two ways, either enjoying him through salvation, right?

We understand that's contingent on God's grace and mercy, or you will give God glory through his justice and his wrath.

So that's why we command all men everywhere to repent, to put their faith in the only savior. Um, but Jesus is

Lord, right? Whether somebody acknowledges or not. Definitely, definitely. And again, uh, be on the lookout for Jeremiah's debate in February and Arkansas state.

What's the date again, man? February 11th. That'll be a Friday evening at 6 .00

PM at Centennial hall in, um, ASU, Arkansas state university. All right.

Also being a lookout January 31st, I was able to get a big time name to join the podcast with us.

And so we'll be going to chapter seven of the covenants. And also, um, we were talking to the former manager of mine.

We had a funny idea and Genesis chapter six, the word Nephilim, uh, many Christians have throughout history debated talking about angels talking about, you know, the righteous seed of, you know,

Seth and Kane mixing one another. And so I'm gonna let Jeremiah and my friend Zach Davis have a discussion about that.

Lord willing sometime maybe in middle of February, somewhere around there. And then I also have more podcast episodes on evangelism.

I know Jeremiah's interested in doing something about, you know, presuppositional teaching that on here. So that'd be a cool idea. So I've been a lookout for all those things.