The Problem of Evil

What is up guys, my name is KJ and this is Why Theology.

So glad to be back.

And I also have Jeremiah with me, man.

Hey everybody, my name is Jeremiah Nortier.

I'm frequent guest slash host on Why Theology.

KJ, thanks for having me on again, man.

No problem, man.

Well, we're having a lot of technical difficulties trying to get it all together.

So I'm glad his patience for enduring with me.

Patience of Job.

Our patience right there, some good patience.

Yeah, man.

Well, I know once again, maybe somebody just tuning in this week and they didn't watch our last, when they heard our last podcast.

So we have a debate coming up.

When is that and where are the details about that?

Yes, thank you for bringing that up.

So February 11th at 6 p .m. I'll be debating at Arkansas State University.

I'm debating a church of Christ gentleman on baptism.

So we will get to kind of present our cases and talk about the importance of this.

The church of Christ view essentially sees baptism as necessary for a right standing with God.

And I would contend to say baptism is important, but it simply demonstrates a

justified heart, somebody that's put their faith in Christ and then they ought in works of obedience,

demonstrate that.

So yeah, that's February 11th, 6 p .m. at ASU in Centennial Hall.

All right.

I already know it's gonna be a pretty good debate, man.

What else has been going on that the Lord's been teaching you lately?

Well, it's funny we're talking about patience, but just patience and serving at 12 Five

Church where I served at, just patience with God's timing and discipleship with sermon

preparation, with teaching, loving on the people that God has brought us.

My virginity, KJ, I wanna do everything so fast the way that I see it, but I want God's perfect timing.

So that is, hopefully we can talk about sanctification at some point in the future, but patience is so sanctified,

you know?

Definitely, definitely.

I'm mad to have patience with my football team, man.

I thought we were gonna go all the way this year and I got let down once again, but it's okay though.

It's okay.

But definitely maybe in the foreseeable future, talk about sanctification because it's something every Christian goes through.

God said he would do it.

Maybe talk about the ins and out of that.

Now, I mean, all the topics that we've discussed, this one might be the most difficult and like, I guess, diving

deep into the waters of the theology.

And so the topic today is the problem of evil.

And so me and Jeremiah are gonna try to tackle this together.

Now, it's always good when we're having any kind of discussion, especially about Christianity and theology, to talk

about what God we're referring to.

So when you had a question, Jeremiah, who is God?

What comes to mind for you?

Yeah, the only true God of the scripture is the triune God, God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit,

eternal communion with one another and has revealed himself to us in his word.

And we also know by looking at creation, the world is structured in such a complex, diverse, particular way

that's also unified that only the triune God could account for.

So that's the God.

The God of Christianity is the only true God who's revealed himself to us in his word.

And I always add the fact about his ascetic, how he sustains himself by his own power.

Like humans, for example, we need water, air, and food, but God existed before air, water, and

food came into being.

That shows that he can keep his own.

He sustains himself.

And then, like you said, the Trinity, three in one, and one in three, God is one, but also three persons.

That separates Christianity, the God, from all other religions, and they're false gods.

And so we're talking about the God of the Bible.

Now, when we're dealing with the problem of evil, what does the Bible say about that particular God we're referring to in the Bible?

I know a couple of verses, some people say it's James 1 .13 and Psalms 5 and 4.

How would you kind of reconcile those verses?

And I can read those verses all we want.

Let me go to the James one.

If you want, KJ, I'll read the James one.

If you want to go to the Psalm one, because I think James 1 .13 has a really

informative context that's worth noting in this conversation about evil, how it relates to God.

So James 1 .13, along with 14, says, let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by

God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires.

So God does not tempt us in any way like our flesh tempts us.

That's really the context is on the human level that when we see something that's luring, kind of like a fish hook, you

got this bait dangling out there, our flesh immediately gravitates to this.

God does not tempt us in any way, shape, or form by dangling something in front of us.

The tempter is Satan, right?

He's constantly warring against the saints, and God does not tempt us.

When we talk about God, he is in a category unique of himself.

And so what's interesting, KJ, is the word tempted here is the same Greek word for test.

When God moves and works, he tests us.

I mean, that's what he says earlier, kind of all joy, my brothers, when you go through various trials, for you

know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.

When God moves and interacts, it's in the form of a test, that positive implication.

But when we are tempted in the negative sense, it's because of our flesh, it's because of the work of the

devil.

So yeah, just because God is sovereign and upholds the universe by the word of his power and is ordained

whatsoever comes to pass, nobody in creation gets to accuse God of any more

moral failures.

He's in a unique category, all of his own, and it all fits perfectly together.

Definitely, definitely.

And that verse talks about how, like you said, God tempts no one.

So it would contradict the essence of who God is, which we'll talk about later, that he's truly good.

And so for God to tempt somebody, how would you kind of correlate that?

If God were the one who tempted people to sin, how would that relate to his character?

Yeah, well, it would fall apart because this is in the negative sense.

Tempting here is something that which the devil does to us.

The tempting more specifically here is how our flesh engages with those things that are luring

us in.

And so yeah, God cannot tempt us in this category because he is perfectly good, he is

holy.

And we'll get more into this, but he's the ground of all being.

He's the one sustaining everything that has been created.

So yeah, it really doesn't make sense, KJ, to say that God, it's not even possible that God

could tempt man in this particular category.

Where this gets interesting and a little off topic is when we start talking about the God being Jesus, how is it that he

was truly tempted in all ways, like we are, and yet was without sin?

Definitely, it's actually a good way to think about it.

I'm gonna let you answer that a little bit later, so I'm gonna see what you think.

Just saying.

Psalms chapter five, verse four and five, it says this, for you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell

within you.

Though boastful shall not stand in your sight, you hate all workers of iniquity.

Some translations say you hate all who commit evil, but I just wanna focus on verse four.

The end of verse four says this, nor shall evil dwell within you.

So it kind of is very similar to the James passage talks about how God has tempted no one because there's no evil within God.

And then right here, like God does not take pleasure within evil, he hates it.

And so if God, we'll talk about this, but we're talking about the problem of evil.

So the problem of evil in certain sense, like God's not the author of it in this sense,

that he's not the one that's committing the evil in the world.

That's the way you can look at it.

What would you say about, I guess these two verses, and I have another verse I wanna talk about too.

What would you say so far?

Yeah, it's interesting, because you have to reconcile these verses that says, God cannot tempt any man,

he would not.

You do have to acknowledge God is still sovereign in some capacity.

When you read passages that say, God in fact is working all things together after the

counsel of his will.

And for the believer, the application is all things are working together for our good, for our sanctification,

those who are called according to his purpose.

So God is sovereign.

He has a purpose in evil existing.

It's not just randomly happening in his universe.

No, God is omniscient.

In light of that omniscience, he created this world.

Everything has purpose.

And that's just something that we have to understand.

We gotta let God have creator categories.

And when we look at human flesh and the devil, we gotta have creature categories.

And so we always have to maintain those distinctions as we talk about these things.

Definitely, definitely.

Now, I know a pretty big one that a lot of people talk about when we're dealing with this subject is Isaiah chapter 45, verse

seven.

And it's the King James Version, where it says, I form light and create darkness.

I make peace and create evil.

I, the Lord, do all these things.

How would you kind of go into that verse?

Yeah, so I actually have that pulled up too.

So this is the ESV.

For I form light and create darkness, I make well -being and create calamity.

Calamity, I'm the Lord who does these things.

So to me, what we have to understand is that there is what we call

natural evil that occurs in this world, like buildings falling over and people dying.

We have to understand that there are natural disasters that take lives.

God is the author of life and he is also, he can take someone out.

It's his prerogative.

He's the author of life, right?

Job understood that and said, blessed be the name of the Lord.

The Lord gives, the Lord takes away.

But God is the ultimate one that determines that.

And the reason why we don't, we shouldn't get mad at the creator because

that's futile.

We see that in Psalm chapter two, that the nation's rage, the king's plot against God,

and yet he laughs because it's a foolish thing to try to rival the creator in that way.

I think that probably is talking more about natural evil, but God still is the

one that has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, even moral evil.

He has a purpose.

There's an end.

There's an end goal that God is working out for his own glory.

And he's going to display mercy, right?

On whomever he wills, Romans chapter nine.

And he's going to exercise justice on whomever he will, right?

And so we understand that God is going to ultimately be glorified at the end of the day, all to the praise of the glorious grace.

Definitely.

And if you look at that, obviously, like you said, there are three different types of evil.

The calamity would fix more with the context as God is talking to Cyrus.

And if it's more with the context, verse six, that I may know from the rising of the sun to the setting, there is none

beside me.

I'm the Lord and there is no other.

So back and forth, you see this contrast.

And it's kind of what verse seven is getting into that contrast once again.

Now, I guess when we continue this conversation, I'd like us to define a couple of terms that will help us kind of dive more

into this conversation.

And I'm going to add another term I didn't talk to you about beforehand.

I want to see what you think about this.

So I guess number one, when we say like the author or something, so me and you probably both agree that God is not the

author of sin, but we probably would say that God, he's the primary cause of everything that exists in the

world.

Now, how do the two go against, how can we correlate those two?

Because me and you, once again, we agree with that, that he's a primary cause of everything, but he's not the author of sin.

How did that go to end to end?

Yeah, we always have to define our terms because God is not the effectual

author of sin.

He is not the one moving evil to come about.

He uses means.

I do say that God authorizes evil, similar to a writer of a story, right?

If you read J .R. Tolkien and Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, there's a lot of evil that goes about.

But J .R. Tolkien and Lord of the Rings or J .K. Rowling is not the effectual author

of the characters actually carrying out these evil, but the whole story was kind of determined by the writer

and they are free to do that.

God is free to create a world that he sees fit.

And so that's how I wanna help people understand.

So he uses means to bring about that end cause.

This doesn't totally capture everything.

I do think there's some mystery attached to it, but God permits Satan to do what

he wants.

Now that whole dialogue was ordained to happen.

But when Satan wanted to afflict Job, he had to have permission by God.

And so God determined this world for that to take place and he uses the means of Satan to afflict

Job.

And yet Job does not say, I blame Satan, I'm mad at him.

He humbly acknowledged the sovereign creator and say, the Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be

the name of the Lord.

I think that's a really good way of looking at it, KJ.

I think it's James 5 .11 that says, you've seen the end purpose of the Lord to display mercy and compassion.

God had a plan in it all, he had a purpose in it all, but look at the means that he used.

Martin Luther said, the devil is God's devil, right?

It's like a dog on a leash and he can only go where God allows him to.

Now, some of our fellow brothers would say the devil was bound, so we have to be careful by saying he's on a leash, you know.

Uh -oh.

Oh, man.

But yeah, I like what you said that like, you know, God isn't the author of evil, but he does authorize it.

That's a cool way to think of it.

That again, like even the story of Job is a perfect example that like, you know, Job wasn't getting, like the devil was

the person that was doing all those things to Job, but God knew about it the whole time he allowed it.

In any moment, he could have easily prevented it, but he allowed it to happen.

The same today, you know, we're going to talk about this later, but the problem of evil, like, you know, the same things today that we see around like

murder, rape, stealing, I always have to be careful about some of these topics because people, you know, how we view God

and maybe God's evil because a lot of things that happen.

And we'll talk about that a little bit later, but so that's how we define the author and then a primary cause.

Another one, how does the, how can we define free will?

Cause it's going to be kind of helpful as we get into some other deep questions about the problem of evil.

Yeah, I think there's just really two major categories that people interact with.

I mean, there's a lot of philosophy that goes into this, but essentially you have what's called libertarian free will.

And then you also have another understanding of what's called compatibilistic free will.

And so those are the two terms and just to define them quickly, libertarian free will says that in any given

moment, talking about people, we have the ability to choose to do otherwise.

It's not foreordained, it's not predestined.

We live in this undeterministic world and the power to choose rests solely in the

believer or unbeliever or the person.

It's left with them.

And to me, I think that actually doesn't, I don't think that that's possible given the

attributes that God actually has, but that we can get more into that.

And then compatibilistic free will, I actually like quoting Proverbs 16 verse nine that says,

man chooses, makes his plans according to his heart and yet God has determined or purposed his

steps.

Basically what it says is the free that we experience is what we truly

desire to do according to our heart.

I'm sitting here talking with you and I'm choosing to do that.

That's compatible with God foreordaining it before the foundation of the world.

So just to kind of help people too, man can't mirror this in

the sense that we can't create robots, right?

That truly feel and have volition to make those kinds of choices.

They're mechanical.

They have a program.

Even artificial intelligence cannot feel like truly, that's the best man can do, but that

doesn't truly reflect what God has done.

You can add to it too.

And R .C. Sproul talks about how like, humans, we're human beings, but obviously God is a divine being.

And even in the garden, man wasn't totally free because there were restrictions.

Man could do only so much that God allowed them to do, but yet with God, there is no restrictions.

So you see how that free will is limited only to the choices that God allows his creation to do.

As your favorite term, the creature created distinction right there.

So we see that all throughout the scriptures, they're like mankind only is able to do what God allows them to do because he's the creator.

And it makes sense.

He's authority to tell us what to do.

Now, how does that, I guess, it kind of falls into another category, which is determinism.

Many people say like mankind can determine, as you said earlier, like their future, for example, and many prosperous

preachers preach that.

But how would that kind of relate to this topic of the problem?

Yeah, there's kind of a few different terms that I want people to be familiar with.

Under determinism, you have what's known as soft determinism or hard determinism.

And then you have a different category of indeterminism.

That's where libertarian free will fits under that.

And then there's a secular philosophical term within determinism and it's

fatalism.

And so it's worth distinguishing all these things because fatalism, we'll go and start with saying how that

can't work.

Fatalism says that since the universe is set, everything is being

moved by fate.

Some impersonal force makes everything fixed.

It's arbitrary.

And I would say that's a form of hard determinism.

And really, since everything is arbitrary based on this impersonal force, nothing has meaning.

I think Ecclesiastes would say that everything under that model would be meaningless like grasping for

air.

So fatalism does not begin to touch what theological determinism we're trying to get at.

So hard determinism says, it doesn't matter what you choose to do

because God's already predetermined it to happen.

And we would say that that doesn't seem to represent the biblical model and it doesn't really comport with

our experience either.

We would just challenge that definition of hard determinism concluding that it doesn't matter.

I would say the contrary.

Because God has foreordained and purposed whatsoever comes past, especially in my life, what I do

actually has meaning because it's grounded in that Trinitarian counsel.

So a lot of this is semantics, KJ.

It's how you define terms and ultimately what does the Bible teach?

That's what we wanna get back to.

So soft determinism says, absolutely what we choose to do is compatible

with what God has ordained.

And I love what Dr. James White has pointed out is the incarnation truly brings meaning to our

world and shows us that God, it matters to God and it matters on our side of things too because

God the son took on flesh and dwelt among us.

You can't just say what hard determinism says is it's all like binary code

and it's all gonna happen and it's basically like fatalism and it doesn't matter.

We're saying, no, it's compatible because God stepped into that creation and he's the one

upholding it all.

And he is the one that redeems man, right?

God is letting his plan of redemption unfold.

So I just say that soft determinism reflects the biblical outlook and you got to understand

free will in terms of compatibilistic free will.

Definitely, I like to think of it too.

Let me read this, the confession here first and I'll explain it.

But chapter three of the confession says, from all eternity God has decreed everything that occurs without reference

to anything outside himself.

He did this by his perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and intangible.

Yet God did this in such a way that he is into the author of sin nor has any fellowship with sin.

This part is kind of key right here.

It says, this decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second

causes.

On the contrary, these are established by God's decrees.

In this decree, God's wisdom is displayed in directing all things in his power of faithfulness.

So you can, I like to go like this way too because in the Bible, like you said, you have the scripture teaching both.

You have the scripture teaching of his God's sovereignty but also man's responsibility, free will.

They go hand in hand.

You can't, they're inseparable as Charles Spurgeon would say.

Now, I think of the story in Acts.

I forget which chapter it is.

It may be Acts two when Peter said, preaching to like the crowds.

And he says, you know, all these things happen as your hand destined or determined as some translations may say.

Now that doesn't mean that the people in the audience like God forced them to do all those things that he determined to

happen.

The Old Testament predicted how the Messiah would die but no, God was using the free will of the creatures,

us humans and our sin to accomplish his means to bring about the Messiah's death on the cross.

And so you hear God's sovereignty.

God knew in eternity past that what his plan was was to have the Messiah die on the cross.

But at the same time, you had free creatures acting now, you know, making decisions that God used those

decisions to bring about the death.

What do you think about that, Jeremiah?

That's good.

What I think is interesting is I've listened to Christian philosophers online.

They try to say that God has decreed man's libertarian decisions and

work that out.

And I'm saying that's a contradiction in terms.

And this is what I try to dial it back to, KJ, is if God is omniscient, truly and

omnipotent, then he determined to create this world and everything in it, declaring the end from the

beginning so that his counsel and purposes would stand.

And so from God's perspective, it's all set.

And we just need to let the creator be the creator and trust him and pray for his mercy in our lives and so

forth.

So, and this is another thing.

If someone affirms God's omniscience before the foundation of the world, then

what they have to understand is they are in a hard position to account for because man

cannot truly choose to do otherwise in any given moment if God is omniscient and then created this world.

You would simply be falling back in this compatibilistic position saying, well, yeah, God

foreknows what I'm going to do.

And we're over here saying, absolutely, because he's omniscient.

He's not forcing you, right?

He's upholding the universe and has ordained for any moment what you feel, what you're going to do.

I've heard some people say, well, he doesn't care about my socks that I put on.

He created this world that was going to come about in a particular way.

And one of the best verses to illustrate that is the last verse of Proverbs 16 that says,

we cast the lot, but it's every decision is of the Lord.

And that's a good illustration to say that even random things to us, maverick

molecules bouncing around, whether we put on socks,.

All these meaningless, mundane things,.

God has a purpose in it.

We just don't get to see the big picture.

And last thing I want to say, KJ, is every position has to give a

theodicy.

They have to give an account of evil.

And for the person that wants to uphold libertarian free will and yet say, but God was omniscient before he created the

world.

Well, they have to give an account just like us.

And this is going to sound just like what the reform position says.

Well, yeah, God knew, right?

But I'm trying to think, God is still the primary first cause.

And so we're saying, how is it even possible?

Because if I truly had the ability to choose to do otherwise it would actually limit God's

omniscience in some way.

And then I think it would contradict, he wouldn't be omniscient anymore.

That's why some people adopt what's called open theism, that God doesn't know the future, because if he did, then we wouldn't be free

creatures.

And I'm over here saying, how about just let God be God and let us be the creatures.

And we truly choose according to our heart's desire.

Yeah, Paul tells us in Ephesians one verse 11, in him also we have attained inheritance it's being predestined according to the

purpose of him who works all things according to the counts of his will.

And so when you think about that word, all I mean, all means all without exception, right?

And so everything in human history is happening from God, go ahead.

Yeah.

The reason all means all there is because it's talking about God's all

encompassing attributes.

We always look at the word all in its context.

A lot of times when we talk about God desires that all men be saved.

Well, that's in a particular context of all men without distinction, not without exception.

And so, but when we're talking about God, who is all for of him, through him and to

him are all things to whom be the glory.

Well, absolutely, that's all encompassing, right?

All things are working together after God's counsel to the praise of his glorious grace.

Definitely.

And then again, the confession in chapter three, paragraph two says, did you mention it?

It says God knows everything that could happen under any given condition.

However, his decrees of anything is not based on foreseeing in the future or vicinity recurring in such conditions.

So it's like, it's not like God's looking down at the history, okay, he's saying, okay, KJ and Jermiah are going to have this podcast.

Okay, now let me at, but no, God's determined.

Like it's basically we're arguing in self -determinism.

You have God's sovereignty and freedom going together using the second causes of man, but also he's so sovereign.

He planned it out exactly that would happen.

The way it did.

So I go hand in hand.

Now, you mentioned the word earlier, but theodicy, this is what we're dealing with right now.

The study of evil, many people call it.

Now, when we're defining evil again, we're talking about theodicy.

How does the Bible define evil?

I kind of put a little header on this.

Is it a person?

Is it an action?

What else would define evil as, Jermiah, to you?

It's interesting because I've always been intrigued with this question, because we're asking what is the ontos of evil?

What is it, right?

Because we don't wanna say evil is merely the absence of good, right?

It is in a way, like we would say that darkness is the absence of light, but it's not

just a mere absence.

There's something there.

I forget which philosopher tried to say, look, you have a donut, right?

And in the hole, there's nothing there.

So it's not satisfying to say that it's merely the absence of

good.

There's something there.

So there's an ontology there.

Evil exists in the world.

And so I think what we get at is evil is kind of twofold.

It begins in the heart of man.

There's obviously other angelic beings that are evil, and it carries out into

actions.

So I didn't know if you wanna chime in on that.

Yeah, I like what you said.

I like to think of it too, because a lot of times when we think about evil, we're thinking about like the, I know most people in my

immediate go to like the evil that's in the world.

Is God the author of the evil that's going on in the world?

Many Calvinists preach that God is sovereign, so that must mean that God has to offer.

If he's predetermined everything to happen, he must have predetermined evil to happen in the world.

And so many people think of God being the author of evil in that sense.

And so if that's true, just granting that thinking, 1 John 3 says this, whoever

commits sin also commits lawlessness and sin is lawlessness.

And you know that when he was manifested, he can't take away sins.

Whoever buys in is not sin.

And you guys know that verse.

But John defines sin as breaking the law.

How can God break his own law?

God is perfect and holy and just, so he can't go against his law.

For God to break his law, for God to sin, that would make, we would all be in trouble because how could the Messiah die on the cross if he

was not perfect?

And so for God to be the author of sin, it would contradict who he is in essence.

What's your take on that?

Well, I thought you did a good job explaining it.

Evil has that moral component like we're talking about.

And then earlier we mentioned how there are natural evils as well.

So yeah, God can be sovereign.

Another phrase that we've used, KJ, that I really like is God uses sin sinlessly.

That's only possible because of the creator creation distinction.

The creator is qualitatively different than what he created.

So he's able to uphold and sustain his creation, to plan it out in such a particular way

without him being that effectual, that's key, without being the effectual cause or

author of evil.

Definitely.

And we've already quoted many scriptures about that, but just for somebody that's kind of interested, story of Job, I think

the Genesis 26 with Abimelech, the people that killed Jesus, Peter tells us in Acts,

all those things happened by the hand of the Lord, but yet God did not sin at all.

He just used it to bring about his means.

Again, using the free will of mankind to orchestrate his plan throughout history.

Perhaps Genesis 50 verse 20 brings this full circle.

You got Joseph's brothers, all of their evil actions, they intended to bring harm,

evil.

And yet you have God, the same verb, yet God intended it for good.

That's compatibilism.

God is not using libertarian free creatures that he doesn't know their actions.

And you can't just say he foreknows it.

Well, he foreknows it because he sustains his creation and has planned it out.

I really do think, KJ, to say that man has the ability to choose otherwise in the libertarian sense would

necessarily negate God's omniscience.

That's good.

Well said, man.

Now, when we think about this, now that we define author, primary cause, free will, and determinism,

how does all that tie into the theodicy.

Of the study of evil?

Is God responsible?

Yeah, well, all those terms are important because everybody has to give a theodicy.

Everyone, even the atheists, they have to try to give an account for the evils that happen in this place.

You got false religions that try to say that it's illusory, that it's actually not real.

And that's not satisfying to the human soul.

We know evil exists.

And as Christians, God has revealed that.

We actually can know where evil came about.

It stems back to Adam and Eve with Satan in the garden.

And we're gonna get into how there was a process.

There's an even more fundamental original sin before original sin with man.

So I think what it's gonna come down to is if someone's gonna hold to God's omniscience,

they're gonna say behind every evil act is a God that knew it

was gonna happen and could stop it.

Or he's just like, I'm over here.

I'm just, I'm allowing it to happen for my own purposes.

And I'm just on standby watching and hoping that you make the right decision.

To me, that's very unsatisfying because God is allowing so much evil that he didn't really

want to happen.

And I think the correct biblical narrative is that God has purpose in all things.

Everything relates together because he is the creator of all things and he has purpose, right?

He's working it out.

And so, yeah, when you look at an evil action, you can say, God, you mean this for good.

I can't necessarily see this in this moment, but you've told me to be thankful in all things and to rejoice in

all things because this is for my good and for my sanctification.

And so I think for the reform perspective, people can say God is the creator as

defined by the scripture and he is good.

He is working all things together for his glory and in purposes.

Nothing is going to catch him off guard.

And he's not this lower, in my mind, I know people would be mad at me, but he's not just on the

sideline rooting.

No, God's the sovereign creator.

He has purpose in all things.

Well said, man, well said.

Now we think about that, Jeremiah, now that we kind of sit at some of these things, can we as Christians say that even as

you're a Calvinist or you believe in God's sovereignty, we don't like term Calvinist, but you say you believe in God's sovereignty.

And we all have to as the Christians, right?

Can we as Christians articulate and say that God's the author of evil?

Or even an atheist, if they say God's the author of evil, how can we go about talking about that based on the scripture we've kind of.

Already dealt with today?

We simply want to distinguish what we're talking about.

I think we can emphatically say, no, God is not the author of evil.

What do we mean by that?

If he's not effectually causing evil on that secondary means, like we talked about earlier, God

is not, you don't see this magical hand come out of the sky with a giant gun prodding you to do evil.

That's the kind of the absurdity we're saying, no, God is not the author of evil in that sense.

Now, the Layton Flowers people that I respect, love them, a lot of people in the SBC world,

they're really trying to get us to admit that God is the author of creation of

everything.

And that would include evil.

We're saying, yeah, there's no moral fault of God for being the creator of all things.

That's, those are biblical categories.

He's even created the wicked for the day of destruction.

So what we distinguish though, is that he is authorizing evil, right?

Just like J .R. Tolkien is authorizing the whole book of Lord of the Rings.

And you're free to do that without being morally culpable for the atrocities.

That happen within that.

And we're saying God gets to do that on an even bigger scale, this three dimensional world that he transcends.

So we just wanna ease people's consciences and say, no, God is not the author of evil,

but we still gotta explain it and that everybody has to explain it.

And I think you and I have talked about it before, there is mystery involved.

We don't have the omniscient mind of God, but in his word, he's revealed to us that he is sovereign and we truly are

responsible with it.

Definitely, definitely.

And then also for the atheists who may say, well, God is evil.

They have several problems in it because obviously in the world view, they can't even articulate what is morality because we're all just an accident.

There's no purpose.

Many people say we're evolved from monkeys, right?

Or animals.

So we were just animals doing what's in our nature.

And we have to, they have to steal from the Christian world view to even make sense of morality.

And that's a whole other discussion.

And so we would still say, no to that, that God is not the author of evil.

Like you already said, he used secondary causes, the second part, I think I forgot who it was.

Was it Plato or Socrates that kind of came up with this idea, the youthful dilemma.

And then basically it was this, that God, can he just say something, you know, can he do something and call it

good?

Or is there a standard that God loves?

He does something because it's good.

And so, for example, the dilemma is if God, let's say for example, if God says murder and rape is okay, does that

make it good because God said it?

So, or does God not lie and say not to lie because it's good?

And the limit is that like, there's a, if that's, let's go to the second, the latter.

If let's say for example, lying is, you know, bad, right?

And God just hates lying.

That means that God has looked to a standard outside himself, which means God is not God.

And on the other front, you know, can God say murder is okay tomorrow and people can start murdering?

Well, we obviously say no, there's no dilemma there because God cannot contradict himself.

In his essence, he's truly perfect in goodness.

So he must always hate the opposite of goodness.

And so there's no dilemma here.

I'll let Jermiah kind of deal with that as well.

That's good.

We would say as Christians with the Christian worldview that it's a false dilemma.

There's a third option.

God is not subservient to these laws outside of himself.

Another point that usually gets brought up is the laws of logic.

God is not bending the knee to some abstract law out there.

And it's the same with morality.

There's not a standard outside of himself.

Then the other side of the dilemma says, oh, well, God can just

arbitrarily say what is good and then that's good.

And we wanna always stay away from what's arbitrary.

The scriptures teach something different, a third option, if you will.

God, goodness reflects the nature of God.

Similar to logic reflects the mind of God.

And so it's much deeper than just what God says is good.

That is the ultimate standard.

Goodness reflects the character of God.

And so, yeah, that gets into some interesting, I think, practical things like

what about when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

Well, for one, we have the biblical categories to know that Abraham is obligated to obey God.

And the scripture tells us that Abraham knew that God was going to keep his promise

of using Isaac to bless all the nations.

So he knew that he is the God of resurrection, right?

And so we see the wonderful faith that Abraham had in God to accomplish his purposes.

So there's also distinction between murder and killing, right, and I guess that's kind of

different.

But what I was gonna say is where this practically plays out is murder is wrong because God is not a murderer,

right?

We're made in his image and we're all image bearers of God and we're to honor and respect one another as Imago

Dei, right?

But this is where God gets to move in a qualitatively different state than

us, meaning that when God takes a life, it's not the same as

when we kill justly or we murder wrongly.

God is the author and creator of life.

He's written all of our days in a book and has ordained that for us, literally is what Psalm 139

talks about.

So the youth row dilemma is a false dilemma.

We would just say, goodness reflects who God is.

He's not doing things arbitrarily, but with purpose because the beginning from

the end is going somewhere.

It's been determined according to God's purposes.

Arbitrary can't even come into the picture because like I said, God has a purpose in all things.

Definitely, definitely.

Now, again, like I said, in chapter three, the confession, I know people say even Westminster confession, but

I'm talking about the confession.

Talks about how God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

And now, if that's true, and even the writers of confession, it ain't me you argue for like a self -deterministic view.

Of these scriptures.

How does someone, even me and you, can hold this self -determinism and not say that God's responsible for

evil?

And now, I guess people, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because people are straight, they strictly goes right to the Adam and

Eve and they go to the devil.

And now this is where we're like, we have, we can kind of explain Adam and Eve and we'll get to the devil later, but let's just start with Adam and Eve

first.

If God has determined all things to happen, that mean God determined that Adam and Eve will fall.

It's what people are thinking is.

I'm just talking this, so I'll mess up my plan.

Okay, no.

But yeah, so Adam and Eve, everything that

happened, God purposed that way.

He wasn't caught off guard.

Even though the Adam and Eve's choices were not marred by sin, their choices were still compatible with God's

sovereignty.

And I like the New King James and King James rendering of Revelation 13.

I think it's eight.

You have to double check me on that.

It talks about how Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

This entails that God purposed that God, the son, would be the lamb to

accomplish redemption.

And I have to look this up real quick, but 1 Peter 1, I think around verse 20,

doing this off the top of the dome.

So talking about Jesus being a lamb without blemish or spot, precious blood of Jesus.

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in these last

times for the sake of you.

That's wonderful.

It's not that God just learned knowledge and looked into the future, but Jesus had a purpose

in the mind of God.

It was foreknown to happen.

It was determined beforehand.

A lot of times foredetermination and foreknow go hand in hand, especially in a loving

context.

I think foreknow here is talking about how the blood of Christ, the lamb without blemish was

foreknown for your sake, right?

It was done out of love.

And so this was the plan of God.

God had it all beautifully planned out how it was going to be accomplished.

And when people say, well, how can God ultimately determine people to reject?

And I'm like, look, God is going to be just in that.

It's not like they're wanting really bad to believe in him and they just weren't elected.

So just too bad for them.

And they just going to be over there sad.

No, what's also compatible with God's determining the reprobate is that they are God haters.

They truly from the heart hate the things of God and they would rather stay in their sin and die in that

sinful state.

So what's God's purpose in that?

Justice, holiness, and to exercise wrath for sinners that

choose to do those things.

So we always just try to fall back on these biblical categories that God does take responsibility

for the world that he created.

But on a human level, he's also going to hold us accountable for what we choose according to our hearts.

Definitely, definitely.

Now, again, Adam and Eve is not as speculative as the devil

could mean evil, but I guess we can think about it in this angle.

What would, I guess, your opinion be on this matter?

So Adam and Eve, they were perfect in the sense that there was no sin within them.

What do you think the idea even to be tempted with committing sin came from?

Yeah, well, the Bible is actually very clear that they were tempted not by God,

but by Satan, right?

That serpent of old.

And what's interesting is they were living in this perfect environment of bliss, communing with the

creator.

And then you had this other person, this other personal agent, stepping into their context, in some

ways, expanding their mind to consider new options.

Talking about the knowledge of the tree of good and evil and saying, oh, you'll be like God with all this knowledge.

Well, that's a game changer because like I said, that expands the mind of Eve and Adam,

knowing not to because of what God and him had talked about, but just passively letting it happen.

So it's almost easy to see the secondary means that God used to bring

Adam and Eve's disobedience.

It was Satan, right?

Remember what Luther said, the devil is God's devil.

So in my opinion, it's easy to see how original sin happened with

man.

God permitted, ordained Satan to be that secondary means, to

ultimately tempt Eve, who was deceived, and Adam passively let it happen, and him being the male.

Obviously, we all died, and Adam is our federal head.

I heard the other question follow up.

Well, somebody might say, well, if the devil never tempted Adam and Eve, would they have sinned?

How would you answer that one?

So I'll say that again.

Oh, if the devil hadn't tempted them, would they have sinned?

I would say no.

I got you, I got you.

Now, somebody else might say, especially atheists, well, why would God allow that to happen?

If he knew that the devil would tempt them and they would in fact sin, what was the point of even allowing that to happen?

I would say, excellent question.

The Bible, in a handful of places, actually answers that.

I think Ephesians 1 ultimately is the best, but you got God and all of his

attributes, this divine, simple being, that is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, communing with

one another, the perfect harmony, loving relationship, and that sovereign,

triune God, determined to put his glory on display.

His glory, namely being his attributes, love, grace, mercy,

patience.

And those are the ones that everybody likes, but also God's attributes entail justice,

holiness.

And so in a world where there's sin, love's response and justice's response to sin

is wrath.

And so how are you gonna put that on display if you create a world?

We have to determine a world where evil enters into the picture so you can redeem a

people that does not deserve it so the full range of God's glory is put on display.

That is the reason why, whether somebody likes it or not.

I'm just saying, how do I know that?

God's revealed that to us in his word.

Yeah, I think it was Johnnie Mack actually helped me think about that too, that God gets more glorified by allowing evil

to happen about.

Can you think about this?

God's more concerned about his glory.

He's not concerned about human's glory.

It's about his glory, right?

We exist to give God glory, that's our purpose in life.

God does not exist for us, we exist for him because he's the most glorious thing out there.

There's nothing better than worshiping God because he's the most desirable thing to worship, right?

And this next thing we think about, how did the devil fall?

Because you got this angelic being, he's in heaven, perfect place, he's in the presence of God.

And yet what is the idea to even sin against a holy being in heaven even come from?

You have everything you could ever want in heaven, the presence of God, other angels, and yet this being, he

sins.

And I think Johnnie Mack said something similar to you is that God had to store it to where he can get the most glory.

Now, I know somebody will object, especially atheists will like,.

What you said is true, KJ,.

That we exist for God and God cares about his glory.

Why did God even create humans or angels if he already was glorious?

And then on the flip side, we talked about the devil sinning in heaven.

So what's your thoughts on those things?

So many things, KJ.

I think it's Ephesians 3.

It talks about putting the manifold wisdom on God on display for the angelic hosts and with equally say

for man.

So did God have to put his glory in this display?

We'd say, no, he chose to do that.

So he didn't have to, he's a necessary being in of himself.

We are contingent beings.

This world is contingent on God's necessary existence, being eternal.

So yeah, God chose to do that.

And we are spectators, if you will.

But when we start talking about evil before Adam and Eve,

R .C. Sproul referred to the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden as the mystery of iniquity.

And personally, I'm with Johnnie Mack and a lot of other theologians that say, well, that's kind of easy because when Satan walked onto the

scene, it was a game changer for them.

The real mystery of iniquity is how did evil find itself in the heart of

Satan?

Now he's a incorporeal being, he's angelic, so they don't have hearts, but they're volitional

creatures.

So how did that desire for evil pride, namely enter into the heart of Satan?

That is a tough, tough question.

Now, there's a few verses that come to mind that I always want to caution myself and anybody else willing to at least

talk about and speculate a little bit about this.

1 Corinthians 4, 6 says not, Paul's warning for us not to go beyond

what is written.

And so we always want to guard ourself, KJ. I know you agree with me.

We want to stick to what the Bible says and be very cautious about what it does not say.

This is an area where the Bible is silent.

However, there are biblical principles that we can use to apply and talk about how that comes about.

But I'm also reminded of Deuteronomy 29, 29, that says the secret things belong to the Lord, our God, but the things

that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all of what the words of the law

say.

So there are certain secret things to God that we don't know.

We don't want to go beyond scripture, but if we look to certain principles, we may can

speculate and say at the end of the day, we still don't know.

So before, I don't know if you want to chime in here, but before I tell you what I think

happened, not with certainty, but I want to tell you what I don't think it is first, if you're okay with that.

Yeah, let me read some verses too, to kind of give us a background about this too, because, you know, many people say, well, does the Bible even explain

the fall of the devil?

Isaiah 14, verse 12, it says this, how you are a father from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the

morning, how you are cut down to the ground, you are weak in the nations, for you have said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven, I'll

exalt my throne above the stars of God.

I will also sit on the mount of congregation in the farther sides of the north.

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most high, yet you should be brought down to Sheol, the lowest depth of the

pit.

And so what we're dealing with right now is saying, verse 13, for you have said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven, I will

exalt my throne above the stars of God.

How is it possible for a being that's perfect with no sin in him to even have the idea to go against God

in the presence of God in heaven?

I think there's another place now, Ezekiel 28.

Let me go there real quick.

You can read it if you get there before me.

Yeah, I'm actually there.

I was tracking with you, KJ.

So it gives kind of another account like you were talking about.

Most theologians agree that this is referring behind the human king, but to an original

ruling entity that was corrupted.

And so I wanted to pull this up and perhaps a couple of different translations.

I wanna read at least focusing on verse 14, Ezekiel 28, where God essentially is addressing

Lucifer, a pre -fallen Satan, right?

You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you and you were on the holy mountain of God in the midst of the stones of the fire you walked.

And so what I'm interested is that phrase, anointed guardian cherub.

I think some translations say that is a covering cherub.

And the idea, and now this is speculation.

There seems to be some preeminence with Lucifer in regards to the rest of them.

One way that I've thought about it is you got all these other angelic beings down here, kind of lower, and then

halfway between where God is resting and those angels is you have this covering

cherub, kind of covering the glory of God.

And the other angels can only kind of gaze through Lucifer being this anointed guardian cherub or

covering cherub.

Don't know how accurate that is, but it's a good picture for me to see.

And that's kind of the picture that were painted though, is there is some preeminence with Lucifer in

his pre -fallen state.

Yeah, definitely too.

When you think about it, just to make sure, cause I know there's some kind of parallel between the guys, I was talking to the King of

Tyree, but then they also started talking about Lucifer as well.

So just so I know we're talking about Lucifer, verse 13 says, you were in Eden, the garden of God.

Obviously King Tyree couldn't have been in Garden of Eden because that was in the creation, right?

So we have to be talking about Lucifer.

And the second aspect too, and there's two types of angels, I guess you'd say regular angels and archangels.

These are angels with, I guess, more superior to regular angels, if you want to call it.

We're given the story of Satan, Lucifer, we have Michael, the archangel,.

And we also have Gabriel.

These are the only angels that I know of as Christians that we see who are mentioned more frequently than other angels.

Now, I also be pretty more than that.

I'm not from heaven, so I can't tell you that, but I'm going there.

So we can talk about when we get to heaven and we see this, but definitely see many people say, I don't know why I

got this idea, but many people say that, you know, the devil, he was God's most, you know, anointed cherub.

He was the strongest angel.

He had all these beauty, cause all those things, right, that we've heard about the devil and yet he sinned.

And I'm gonna let Jeremiah kind of tackle this, see what his opinion about this is.

Yeah, so we're proceeding with caution, but something that I don't think works

is when you think about the context, you have Lucifer that's created as a holy angel,

anointed cherub, covering cherub.

He is holy internally, everything about him.

And then externally, there's nothing but holiness.

Other holy angels singing praise to God and God himself and his kind of glory being holiness.

So you can't say, ah, the answer is libertarian free will.

He just chose.

I'm saying that actually doesn't even work as a plausible answer because where would the compulsion

of sin come from?

It's not gonna be external and it's not gonna be internal.

So free will does not work in my opinion, humble, unbiased opinion here.

So we don't know, but I wanna recommend there is a YouTube video

that John Piper did kind of quoting Jonathan Edwards, I think, about how he wrestled through some of these things.

And I thought, when I listened to this video, where did the desire for evil come from within Satan?

I thought this is the best possible explanation that we could probably get.

And they pointed to two verses, but I wanna kind of illustrate it first.

So since there's this dilemma of everything externally is holiness and internal holiness,

we know that God is sovereign.

He is the unmoved mover in some real sense.

So he has to initiate all of his creation.

Now we don't get to level God with evil, right?

Because he's the creator and we're all part of the creation.

So it's his prerogative, how he wants to move about in his world.

So Edwards and Piper talk about perhaps God somehow

cloaked his glory, his goodness from within Satan.

Okay, now you're just like, whoa, Jeremiah, hold the brakes.

Why would we ever think about that?

Well, in Isaiah chapter 63, verse 17, we get a principle.

So we admit at the very forefront that this is talking about the people of Israel, the prophet Isaiah, and there's a

context with that.

But perhaps there's a principle here.

This verse, the prophet says, oh Lord, why do you make us wander from your

ways and harden our hearts so that we fear not you, return for

the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Now there's something interesting because oh Lord, Yahweh here, the prophet is saying you make us

wander from your ways.

You harden our hearts.

How though?

Well, he says return.

So in some unexplainable way, God seems to be able to remove his

goodness where the prophet here feels that and is pleading for him to return.

So if we go into Isaiah chapter 64, there's one more verse, KJ.

Isaiah 64, verse seven, very similar.

There is no one who calls upon your name who rouses himself to take a hold of you, for you have

hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our

iniquities.

So the idea is what if God is able to cloak his glory, hide his goodness, hide

his face from Lucifer's heart in such a way the only thing that is

left is evil, pride, the ability to discern this context and say, hey,

I desire to be like the one on high.

So what I like about that is it illustrates that God is sovereign.

We see principles of that being consistent.

And perhaps God is able to cloak and hide his goodness within Satan in such a way that

it's not just a privation, an absence of holiness, but there's a real ontology now

of evil.

And that's what Satan desires.

And God always holds man accountable for what he chooses and he holds angels

accountable for what they choose.

The only difference is angels, fallen angels do not have any chance of redemption.

God doesn't owe him that.

It's only out of his goodness and mercy.

And KJ, this is for free.

I thought it was always interesting.

I've always pondered deeply about angels, right?

I think about how they're almost opposite of us.

We are physical beings with the spiritual reality.

They are spiritual beings with this physical aspect, right?

And yet we have questions about angels.

And the Bible tells us that they long to look into the things of redemption.

They look at us and they're scratching their head.

They've never experienced these things.

Definitely, man.

I think what you said, obviously John Piper and Jonathan Edwards, I think what they're saying is very like, as obviously we

believe in solar scriptural, let the script interpret itself, right?

1 Timothy 5, 21 says, if I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you deserve

these things without prejudice.

Paul talks about Romans 9, how God has made vessels prepared for destruction and also vessels prepared for

grace so that his glory may be shown, right?

Talked about earlier, how like God's most concerned about his glory.

And what if God desired to make us, obviously he didn't have to, but he chose to do this, he's God, he could do whatever he want to.

Just going to think with John Piper and Edwards, what if he had this story right here because it would give him the most glory through this

story.

Now, once again, he does not need humans, but this is a story that he chose to get the most glory.

He chose, like you said, in some unique way to remove his goodness from Satan's heart.

Sinlessly, of course, he did this without sinning in and of himself, but he allowed the devil and his free

thinking of secondary causes to have the thought to be evil, obviously to act against God.

And this would bring about the story of redemption, how the Messiah would come and deliver the people.

What's your thoughts about that, especially with verse 70, 21?

Or five.

I think you nailed it.

We always have to keep in mind that creator, creation, distinction.

I mean, Paul literally says that in Romans chapter one.

So yeah, God can use the means of Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, and yet God can effectually do a

work within Satan's heart.

And since he's the creator and sustainer of all things, he does not get charged with being

morally responsible in doing something evil.

He's the ground of all being.

He not only defines goodness, but he exuberates goodness, right?

Goodness reflects who he is.

Now, man, just wrapping up here, how does all this theodicy, we're again talking about the study of evil.

We talked about some very deep theological things here, right?

But what good is theology if it does not go to the heart, right?

How does this theology go to the heart of Christians but also unbelievers?

Because like you said,.

Everybody has to explain the problem of evil, but how does this theology, theodicy point to Jesus and the

personal work that he did for us on the cross?

What a wonderful question, KJ, and a super practical one.

I almost wanna paint a picture of God's sovereignty for every person, believer or unbeliever

alike.

But for the believer, I will say this, KJ, perhaps Romans 8, 28, and

29 haven't become more practical and even more practical

in talking about the problem of evil because when somebody is going through the

worst kind of an atrocity that they could conceive of, lost a loved one, is

being sick, you know what I mean?

Just anything, you as a believer in Christ, there is therefore now no

condemnation for us, right?

That's kind of setting the context.

We realize that God is working all things together for our good,

right?

And then he tells us that it's us who are called according to his purpose.

And we say, what is that good?

What is that good, Jeremiah?

How can there be good in the midst of this awfulness that's going on in my life?

Well, he says he's conforming you to the image of his son.

There is actually purpose in what you're going through.

You're hurt in pain, 1 Peter 1, 67 says.

It's to mold your faith, to refine it as though it's going into fire and coming out even

more valuable and precious.

That's why James 1 says, count it as joy because this is testing in your life.

When God moves, it's testing, right?

And he uses these secondary means that we perceive as negative.

And they truly are negative, right?

When we see real evils that happen, but we can look to God and say, he is working all these things together

for my good.

And Romans, you've been drumming this all night, but Romans 11, 36 says,

for of him and through him and to him are all things to whom be the glory

forever.

So in a simple statement, KJ, why does evil happen specifically in my life,

whether it's moral evil or natural evil?

It's for my sanctification and for God's glory.

Definitely, man, wonderful said, wonderful said.

And obviously I always enjoyed this, but for Christians, you're on the winning side, even though right now it may seem, what

is it, 1 John chapter five?

I think it says, John says something along the lines of this that like the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

I mean, you go outside right now and turn on the news, it seems like evil is winning.

It seems like darkness is engulfing the earth.

Satan is winning.

I think people are dying and going to hell.

It's all around you, right?

But yet the Bible tells us that we're on the winning side.

I know people don't like him at times, but Billy Graham, he says, I looked at Revelation and read it.

He got kind of encouraged.

He says, I'm on the winning team.

I think that applies to us today too, because you look at Revelation, it tells you how God's going to finish everything, but

also that how God conquers.

And definitely us who are trusting in Jesus will conquer today as well.

Obviously to the perseverance of the saints, we will persevere in Christ because of the Holy Spirit living inside of us.

And so I think it's so encouraging that even though there is a problem, you are out there, God is already dealing

with it.

Obviously at the cross, he's still dealing with it now and he'll do away with it when he returns again.

And so we have no need to worry about it.

And we can just trust in our God.

I believe it's in Genesis, Abraham come with the God, Solomon Gomorrah is going to get destroyed.

And Abraham's worried about getting destroyed in the midst of Solomon Gomorrah.

And he brings it for God.

We're not the judge of our creation, do what is right.

And then we're saying, Jeremiah is saying here is that, yes, God will do what's right.

You can trust in that sovereign God.

So in the last words, man, before we get out of here.

The chief end of man is to enjoy God and to

glorify God and to enjoy him forever.

Now I love that.

That's good theology right there.

That speaks to the heart of Christians, right?

To glorify God and to enjoy him forever.

But God will get his glory in one of two ways, either enjoying him through salvation, right?

And we understand that's contingent on God's grace and mercy, or you will give God glory through his

justice and his wrath.

So that's why we command all men everywhere to repent, to put their faith in the only savior.

But Jesus is Lord, right?

Whether somebody acknowledges or not.

Definitely, definitely.

And again, be on the lookout for Jeremiah's debate in February in Arkansas state.

What's the date again, man?

February 11th.

That'll be a Friday evening at 6 p .m. at Centennial Hall in ASU,

Arkansas State University.

All right.

Also be on the lookout, January 31st.

I was able to get a big time name to join the podcast with us.

And so we'll be going to chapter seven of the covenants.

And also we were talking to the former man, Jeremiah.

We had a funny idea in Genesis chapter six, the word Nephilim.

Many Christians throughout history debated, talking about angels, talking about the righteous seed of Seth and Cain

mixing with another.

And so I'm gonna let Jeremiah and my friend Zach Davis have a discussion about that.

Lord willing, sometime maybe in middle of February, somewhere around there.

And then I also have more podcast episodes on evangelism.

I know Jeremiah's interested in doing something about pre -suppositional, teaching that on here.

So that'd be a cool idea.

So be on the lookout for all those things.

So thank you, Jeremiah, for being on with me.

Hope you guys have a good day.