America's Response to 9/11 and Comparing Christianity to Islam

And good afternoon welcome to the dividing line my name is James white our phone lines will be open today at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three eight six six eight five four six seven six three is the toll -free number for you to access the program as they say out there in the real radio world and Last week we

Took a took a whack at discussing America's response to the terrorist attacks on September 11th and during the course of the week

I took the time to put a new main page article up on the website that was relevant to the same issue and then linked to the

Dividing line program. I also address this issue in Sunday school unfortunately our faithful A Person who puts the sermons and stuff up on the the

PR BC org website has only recently gotten back from being in New York when the attacks that took place and so My Sunday school lesson,

I don't believe is up there yet But eventually we'll hopefully be able to link to that as well. It has been most interesting to note the responses and in fact one of the reasons

That we have the phone lines open today right from the start is maybe some of you who have

Given us some very strong responses to the

To the main page article and to last week's a program would would like to possibly get in touch with us and explain some of maybe even some of the terminology that you have utilized in Your responses we've gotten two kinds we've gotten very positive responses to the discussion of the inconsistency of America asking for God's blessing while at the same time

Utterly and completely not only ignoring the issue of Repentance but even more than that Rejecting in the strongest possible ways

Any call for repentance and in fact identifying anyone who would call for repentance?

as Being unpatriotic as attacking America so on and so forth

In talking with a lot of folks. I have discovered that there are there is definitely an undercurrent of people

Who fully agree with what I had to say and with what with what others are saying but they're afraid to come out and say this in many situations because of the

Presentation throughout the media and sadly throughout the church as well In regards to this necessity of Not speaking about repentance not speaking about judgment not speaking about punishment not speaking about sin there's there's a time and a place we're being told and So There's a there's a hesitance to speak out on these particular subjects, but then we've gotten other kinds of responses

We've gotten the positive ones We've gotten responses from people that said, you know This is you know, thank you very much for addressing this for being willing to address it so on so forth

But then we've gotten the others and some of them quite honestly, I could not even read to you one that's I looked at last night

I suppose if I had a little bleep button where I could bleep out the profanities I could read the entirety of the text to you but all we've got is a cough button and that would just Just create silence and it'll just be holes in what

I was saying so that really wouldn't work too well and Besides that silence is it's not nearly as good as the beep because the beep actually tells you that there's you know

There's something there that you're not supposed to be hearing and then your mind, of course Fills in with the worst possible thing you can figure out anyways, which would be about right with this particular

Message that was sent to us through the through the website But there are a lot of folks who just you know, you're attacking the nation.

You're attacking the United States So we have a lot of folks who actually think they're

Christians now, of course this fellow who used that language he did talk about theology and things like that and I do know of some particular religious groups that We're in profanity is not considered to be really a sign of spiritual immaturity or anything else

So I guess maybe that person comes from one of those. I don't know but in any case

It's it's truly been amazing to observe the kinds of responses that we have gotten and the fact that a lot of folks don't even want to be challenged to think through what our current national crisis might mean

But it has done nothing for me, but to cause me to think ever more concerning this particular issue and to be ever more convinced of the necessity of repentance the necessity of calling for repentance calling for people to Consider well the meaning of the scriptures when it speaks to us of Repentance and God's judgment upon the unrighteous and I think that is going to truly

Become the theme of anyone who truly believes in Scripture Truly believes that we need to believe all of Scripture.

That's that's very very very important and That's that's

I think become a very important thing I'd like if we can remember the phone lines are open eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three

I Would like you to if you have a Bible available to you a turn with you to turn with me to Jeremiah chapter 7

I was just watching a moron come into our chat room and and thankfully Others managed to kick the moron out of the chat room

There are there are some really weird people in the internet That's how I can say but if you would turn to a

Jeremiah chapter 7 I Have been caused to think about this passage many times over the past week

Because of the repeated statement will look, you know, there's there's a time and a place for everything and we really should

We really should not be talking about sin right now Where you shouldn't be talking about judgment right now let's just all to get and let's get together and let's say the

Pledge of Allegiance and wave a flag and and Feel warm and fuzzy inside and and that the big one

I've heard is don't you dare? Talk about these things right now because people will think that you're like the radical

Muslim fundamentalists and I've thought about that a number of times

I've thought about the fear that people have That someone's gonna say well you people are like those those radical

Muslim fundamentalists Okay. Well, what do you do about that? Are we like radical

Muslim fundamentalists? Do we have any desire to hijack aircraft and fly them into major buildings in Islamic nations?

No Do we have a doctrine of jihad? No, the

Crusades were not Christian in any way shape or form. That's an aberration of Roman Catholicism. So there's certainly nothing biblical about that so What are the similarities?

Well, we've got a different God. Oh, no. No, no, no all on our God. They're the same God, right? No, no, no, they're not

Allah is so transcendent that he has as as they say Allah has no son

There is Allah is Unitarian. We are Trinitarians I guess the Jehovah's Witnesses might have to you know, talk with you know, defend their position at that point

But we are Trinitarian the Allah is Unitarian Hence there can be no expression of love

Eternally in Allah as there is amongst the divine persons of the Trinity and Allah is so transcendent that there is no imminent entering into The creation that we have in the incarnation of Jesus Christ Islam rejects the idea that Allah could in any way shape or form enter into His creation there that the concept of redemption is foreign in In Islam that I mean on every fundamental level there's a vast difference

We're the only thing that we're similar in is that we're monotheists who believe God is personal and has revealed himself in Scripture We believe we obviously disagree as to the scripture

What is the scripture and what the scriptures teach and so on and so forth? but as far as who God is how he's revealed himself and Salvation and the end of the world and how a person saved and everything else very very very different But people still might think that we're similar why because we both believe in objective truth and There's nothing that we can do about that And there's nothing we should do about that in fact the amazing thing is it seems to me

There's a number of Christians who actually want to back off from confessing

Objective truth so we don't look like someone else who confesses objective truth Because believing objective truth is so completely

So completely opposed Our society is so completely opposed the idea of objective truth that they're gonna hate anyone who believes in objective truth

Subjectivists don't like people who believe that there's objective truth That's just the way it is and so it seems there's some people actually well

Let's let's not let's not talk about these things and so on and it amazes me What what what is the right time for speaking about judgment?

if when judgment comes is not the right time to speak about judgment and When judgment wasn't coming and everything was was you know?

Stock market was going through the roof, and there was the dot -com millionaires and and You know everybody was just fine and dandy.

What was the national discussion then? well mainly Sexual debauchery that was that was primarily the national discussion then

You didn't hear much in the way of a call for repentance then either so now judgment comes and I saw

I saw a graphic within the past link four months seventeen trillion dollars

Or was it twelve trillion it was either twelve or seventeen trillion dollars has disappeared gone

Within the first five days of the stock market being opened again 1 .2

trillion dollars poof gone And so now it's not the time exactly when is the time to talk about these things if now isn't the time

Of course those who have been very negative have been so without any particularly decent biblical argumentation

It's just all been chest pounding and flag -waving and you mean non -patriotic person

Well when I think about that when I think about people saying well you need to You just need to be nice.

You need to be kind you need to you know just get on the bandwagon and everything else I Think of Jeremiah chapter 7

Jeremiah chapter 7 and Again, I'd like you to think about what was going on here by the way

Then the phone number is eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three if you'd like to participate today

Think about what's going on in Jeremiah chapter 7 Put yourself in the context

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying stand in the gate of the

Lord's house and proclaim there this word and say Here the word the

Lord all you of Judah who enter by these gates to worship the Lord so let's let's

Picture this Jeremiah lives in a day where there is a

Amount of economic prosperity we know from reading Jeremiah that there were palaces there were rich people but there were people who had a lot of money and He lives in a day when the people of Israel Believe that because the temple is there then

God is with them and They are a outwardly religious people

They Go to the temple they offer sacrifices they observe various feast days and holidays and the like and so from an outward perspective the

Judah of Jeremiah's day is very similar to the

America of our day there is a place of worship there is Religiosity in the land there is a sense in which we have experienced

God's blessings in the past So we will continue to be able to do so in the future and it is in that context that Jeremiah is sent not to a small synagogue someplace, but he's sent to the very heart of religious worship in the city he is sent to stand right at the gate of the

Lord's house and Proclaim these words To all of Judah all who enter by these gates to worship the

Lord Verse 3 thus says the Lord of hosts the God of Israel Amend your ways and your deeds and I will let you dwell in this place

Do not trust in deceptive words saying this is the temple of the Lord the temple the Lord the temple the

Lord For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor

If you do not oppress the alien the orphan or the widow and do not shed Innocent blood in this place nor walk after other gods to your own ruin

Then I will let you dwell in this place in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever

Behold you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail Will you steal?

murder and commit adultery and swear falsely and offer Sacrifices to bail and walk after other gods

Do you have not known then come and stand before me in this house? Which is called by my name and say we are delivered

That you may do all these abominations Has this house which is called by my name become a den of robbers in your sight behold

I even I have seen it declares the Lord But go now to my place which was in Shiloh where I made

Where I made my name dwelt the first and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people

Israel and Now behold you have done all these things declares the Lord and I spoke to you rising up early and speaking but you did not hear and I called you but you did not answer

Therefore I will do to the house which is called by my name in which you trust and to the place which

I gave you And your father's as I did to Shiloh I will cast you out of my sight as I've cast out all your brothers all the offspring of Ephraim as For you

This is to Jeremiah as for you do not pray for this people and Do not lift up cry or prayer for them and do not intercede with me for I do not hear you

Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood the father's kindle the fire and the women need dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven

And they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite me Do they spite me declares the

Lord? Is it not themselves they spite to their own shame? Therefore that says the

Lord God behold my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place on Man and on beasts on the trees the field on the fruit of the ground and it will burn and not be quenched

That says the Lord of hosts the God of Israel add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices but this is what

I command them saying obey my voice and I will be your God and You will be my people and you will walk in all the way which

I command you that it may be well with you yet they did not obey or incline their ear but walked in their own counsels and The stubbornness of their evil heart and went backward and not forward

Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day I have sent you all my servants the prophets daily rising early and sending them yet They did not listen to me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck.

They did more evil than their fathers You shall speak all these words to them

But they will not listen to you and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you

You shall say to them This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the Lord their God or accept correction Truth has perished and has been cut off from their mouth

Cut off your hair and cast it away and take up a lamentation on the bear heights for the Lord has rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath

For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight declares the Lord They have set their detestable things in the house, which is called by my name to defile it

They have built the high places of Topheth Which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire

Which I did not command and it did not come into my mind Therefore behold days are coming declares the Lord when it will no longer be called

Topheth or the valley the son of Hinnom But the valley of the slaughter But they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place

The dead bodies this people be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth and no one will frighten them away

Then I will make the cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of Gladness the voice the bridegroom and the voice the bride for the land will become a ruin

Those are hard words But if you have a Bible, they're right there in front of you.

They were there on September 10th and They were there on September 12th

Nothing changed in them The call to repentance was the same

Now when you read that passage Many immediately go.

Well, don't you realize are you so dim -witted that you do not understand?

That This has nothing to do with America because America that's that's that was about Israel that has nothing to do with America well

Is that the case? Is it the case that's um, if it was mentioned if it was said of America Sorry said of Israel.

That means it cannot have any application to anyone else And there have been people who have written to me and I think they're very deeply

Influenced by various forms of dispensationalism basically Who have said look

Oh God only holds Israel accountable for those things. Well, isn't that interesting? Let's let's think for a moment

What sins did God mention there in Jeremiah chapter 7

He mentioned sins of oppressing widows and orphans of not having justice in the land of shedding of innocent blood the murder of children the

Specifically there toward the end. He talks about the offering of children and sacrifice to Moloch.

There's idolatry There's all sorts of sexual immorality

Mentioned along the way and Committing adultery stealing murdering swearing falsely offering sacrifices to bail walking after other gods that you have not known that's verse 9 and I look at a verse like that and I start thinking about the

Canaanites The ones that were driven out of that land, what did they do?

Well, they were involved in idolatry the worship of false gods they stole they murdered they committed adultery they swore falsely they offered sacrifices to various and sundry gods and Caused their children to pass through the fire that is sacrificed their children upon the altar and so on and so forth

And what happened to them? Scriptures tell us that God's wrath came upon those nations and they were driven out

Some of you may recall just a few weeks ago before the attacks took place. We were talking about Homosexuality and we raised this very issue in regards to Leviticus and the call to the

Jewish people to be a holy people and The discussion of the fact that the peoples of the land that were going to be displaced and were going to be judged

Had engaged in all these various and sundry sins and the people of Israel were warned not to become involved with those things

Well interestingly enough That's exactly we've got going on now as well

That's exactly we have going on now as well we have the same sins and Someone say well, what do you mean the same sins?

Well, don't we have the very same things going on now don't we have? Stealing theft murder every form of adultery fornication homosexuality gross dishonesty,

I mean Didn't don't I remember something just recently about high government officials

Let go just not even not even removed from office because even though they was very obvious that they had committed perjury

Nobody cares it's just us, you know, hey, you know, we all do it or so we're told and Right there after stealing murdering committing adultery in Jeremiah 7 9 you have swear falsely

Dishonesty injustice offer sacrifices to bail offer sacrifices to bail

Walk after other gods that you have not known boy. Is that happening all over the place? Seems to have become the national religion there's a new

God out there and he Well, if you've got a Christian background, he can sort of look

Christian to you And if you've got a Muslim background, you can sort of look Muslim If you got a Sikh background you can look

Sikh and if Buddhist you can look Buddhist and you know all sorts of stuff like that and then what about this offering of children

Again, I'm not gonna be making any friends, but I cannot help but thinking about the fact That When the

Congress stood on the steps and saying God bless America That was the same

Congress who has acted consistently over the past number of years to make sure that We are able to legally in this land practice a form of infanticide that makes anything that was ever offered to Mulloch Look tame

Look tame If you know What is involved in partial birth abortion, you know that we have actually

Gotten better at it than the Canaanites were and what I mean by that is we're even worse and Back, then they may have offered their kids so they could get a better crop now we offer our kids so that we don't have to worry and Spend the money and the time on being responsible for our own sexual activities

At least they were trying to get some food out of it. I Think what we do is worse.

And so that's what I was trying to communicate last week was God bless

America with what? Yeah, we can sing.

God bless America. What are the words say? The words aren't saying

God bless America with continued economic prosperity and protection that has nothing to do with how we live

What should God bless America with? Well, I think we all know

God needs to bless America with repentance God needs to bless America with a love for his truth

But repentance and the love for truth rarely comes from economic prosperity It rarely comes from protecting a

People from outside forces Those are blessings that come to a righteous people of people that are concerned about God's law not to people

Who want to offer prayers? without concern about personal holiness hence

Jeremiah says will you steal murder and commit adultery and and Swear falsely and offer sacrifice to bail and walk after other gods

Do you have not known then come and stand before me in this house? Which is called by nine my name and say we're delivered

That you may do all these abominations You see there's everything fine about the nation coming together and praying

But when the nation comes together and asks the people to pray who a don't either know

God that I mean if they're blatant followers of another God or they are movie stars and singers who live debauched lives of Drug abuse and fornication and yet they're the ones that we're supposed to look to to lead us in asking for God's Blessing I Don't Understand it.

It's right there in front of us folks. It's right there in the text of Scripture Well, we've got one one person on line eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three.

We come back We'll be talking with you when you call in at eight six six eight five four six seven six three

And welcome back to the dividing line And we are discussing recent events again this week again, hopefully in a theological context one that'll be useful to people we are especially considering the

Confusion I would like to try to think but I think a lot of it has to do with the The depth to which man's religion has infiltrated what is called

Evangelicalism Today some folks in the chat room. We're just noticing some quotes that I had seen earlier this week

People are asking quote -unquote religious leaders about what happened in the attack where was

God and the general consensus and of course, it can be the only consensus from a non -biblical perspective is to say well, you know, there's this, you know, there's there's free will and You know

God was God was there but he was in the firefighters and and you know God could stop these things from happening

We'd have to dehumanize us to do it and the idea of a sovereign God with with a decree

Who works all things after the counsel of his will so that everything is purposeful and everything resounds to his glory

Just that's not exactly what people want to hear right now for some reason they find more comfort in a

God Who was either caught by surprise or is just doing his best to clean up the mess Than it is to believe in the biblical

God Who brings these things about for a purpose that is always the best purpose?

That's the people don't want that that's a That they don't they don't want that kind of thing. So anyways eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three and let's go to our phone callers and let's talk with Paul and Over in North Hollywood, California.

Hi Paul. Hi, dr. White. How are you doing? Okay First off. I wanted to thank you for taking a stand for the truth

It's not a popular thing to do these days. Sadly. We're discovering that every day Yeah, I wish she could have been the one to address the nation during the

National Day of Prayer. Oh, yeah But I don't know that I would have gotten out of the building personally

I I Had a question regarding Islam the media has portrayed

Islam as a Peaceful and loving religion and I just wanted to know if that was a fair portrayal or does the

Quran actually? Endorsed the killing of non -muslims. Yeah It's really interesting

I'm sitting here, of course in front of my computer and I have a little program here what's it called sticky note 7 .0

if anybody knows what world that is and One of my sticky notes that I have up here is consider and pray about engaging the

Muslim topic and that was from Probably two weeks before the attacks and I don't claim to be an expert on Islam my knowledge of Islam has primarily been from the apologetic perspective of for example debating an

Islamic apologist on the deity of Christ in the New Testament or something like that But my understanding and I happen to have the

Quran sitting here next to me the the religion itself from the stuff my study of church history

Somebody somewhere along the line very early on got the idea that Allah is glorified by the destruction of the infidel and And when you look at the spread of Islam from the time of Muhammad over the next two centuries to where it not only move takes over all of The what we would call

Palestine Arabia The whole whole area there, but it goes across North Africa and up into Spain itself

That kind of tremendous expansion was not missionary expanse expansion it was in point of fact military expansion and so the first followers of Muhammad those first generations those first individuals who

Knew those who followed Muhammad were the closest ones clearly understood the command to suppress unfaithfulness and to spread the faith of Islam as having a very strong militaristic

External force to it and Then only after that Expansion stops and you have the development of what might be called

Islamic culture in the sense of all right now that we have this religion and this religion now needs to Propagate itself within a particular culture for a particular period of time.

It's not based upon Militaristic expansionism anymore have expanded as far as we can only then do you start seeing a moderation and I think it would be fair to say that the majority of those who call themselves

Muslims today take obviously a Moderate moderate view of How they're to live

Islam not only has the Quran, but then you have similar to what developed in Well, this is sort of interesting

It's very similar to what developed in Judaism where you have the Talmud which is made up of the Mishnah the Gemara Together they become the

Talmud and the Talmud becomes the the Jewish commentary upon the scriptures Similarly you have in Roman Catholicism the development of canon law tradition

And the dogmas of the church well in Islam you have the development of the hadith the various sayings of Muhammad that are passed down externally interpretations of the

Quran and each of the various major groups Within Islam Gravitate more or less toward certain of those

Works and consider certain of those works to be more Binding and have more interpretive authority than than others and in fact some they'll reject and some will accept him

So many of the Muslims today take a more moderate viewpoint Then say the initial the initial generations did but they do so Primarily because of the interpretive filter being applied to the

Quran if you've read the Quran It's simply strange. I mean, it's there.

It's very obvious that some of the things were written in a somewhat of an ecstatic trance on the part of Muhammad and Very very liable to to wide wildly varying interpretations, it's it's

Almost like apocalyptic literature, but without the the the clues given to you as to exactly how you're to interpret things

That's why you even on fundamental issues like did Jesus Christ actually die

On The cross was that even Jesus the the Quranic material?

There is is able to be interpreted in a number of different ways so that you will encounter

Muslims who would say That Jesus that wasn't Jesus or someone who looked like Jesus or it was

Jesus But he didn't really die and there's all these different takes that are that are taken to it

The other thing to remember about so the Quran as well And this wasn't really exactly what you're asking but someone in the chat channel had mentioned something about this earlier people ask well, you know is what we have today what

Muhammad gave and one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam is that It is very well known that those who have attempted to delve into the early textual state of the

Quran many of them have been murdered by Muslims for daring to Blaspheme the

Quran by suggesting that there have been changes. I mean ask Salman rush rusty

When he wrote the satanic verses those were verses that the evidence indicates would have been in the

Quran before what's called the Uthmanian revision and That Demonstrated that there was still an element of polytheism in in Muhammad thinking

Well, the Uthmanian revision brought all of the the the manuscripts that were currently available of the

Quran into one it brought them all into one form, so It's a it's a there's a level of conjecture to even know exactly what existed before the

Uthmanian revision But the reason that Manuscripts of the Quran agree today is because of what took place that time

It basically gathered them all up made them all read the same and they had the power and ability to do do that Excuse me.

I should use my cough button there here. Let me do that There I didn't cough there, but I did use it. It was just sort of not quite the right time anyways so There's there's not quite as much variety in the varieties of Islam as there is in the various forms of quote -unquote

Christianity, but You will find a lot of you know Just like there are Catholics in Catholic countries who are

Catholic just because they were born that way, right? There are Muslims who are Muslims because they live in a Muslim country and that's what you do.

There's no fervor they would no more strap explosives around their body as Do anything else they have no interest in such things and so certainly those who would

Fly an aircraft into the World Trade Centers are Certainly in the vast minority the problem is it's a little bit like the fundamentalist

Mormons in Utah and That is the fundamentalist Mormons in Utah can go back to the writings and the teachings of their earliest leaders

They can go back to Joseph Smith. They can go back to Brigham Young and they can demonstrate very clearly

That those men taught that you had to enter into the eternal covenant of marriage to become a god

Now the modern church says you don't they see a contrast there. They go back to the earlier

They can defend their position very well. And as a result, they're willing to go to prison

I just saw this week a program that had three polygamous wives on and their husband is in prison for For engaging in polygamy, but they're pressing on without him

Well, why would they be willing to do such things? Well because they have that commitment to those earlier prophets they believe there are truly prophets and and they feel persecuted by the

Modern Mormon Church. Well, the radical Muslim can go back to the earliest interpretations of the

Quranic literature And they can say look look what we did. We we we basically conquered a whole section of the world and Many of them feel that that Islam has been in retreat primarily due to Western civilization many of these individuals believe that Western civilization is

Fully and completely inconsistent with Islam that it is decadent that it is materialistic and on both of those accounts, they would have a lot of reason for saying both of those things and So they they see a the holy war the jihad as being one that's necessary Both for the survival of Islam and the propagation of Islam and they can say look our earliest leaders just like the

Mormons can go back to their earliest leaders our earliest leaders taught these things and Who cares if modern if the modern majority has decided to compromise?

We're not going to That's For judgment and and again, here's a situation where yeah

There there is a similarity there. The difference is that with the situation with Israel is it's based upon holiness and it's based upon the establishment of the people of Israel from whom comes the

Messiah and From whom then comes the gospel to the world. There is no gospel in Islam In Islam the what the the reason for subjecting those people is not punishment but it is to propagate the religion of Islam and to No gospel comes forth after that I mean that's that's really where the difference has to lie and I think a lot of folks are trying to are trying to get away from Every similarity that can be drawn and you can't we're monotheists.

They're monotheists There is a belief in objective truth in both situations their scripture in both situations, but the gospel

Becomes the difference between the two and the means by which we propagate it We do not fight with instruments of carnal warfare are the instruments of our warfare are spiritual

Well, that's not the case in Islam The instruments their warfare are the gun and the bomb and the terror and whatever else it might be.

So Here in the United States, we have a lot of you know Islam has actually been getting a tremendous amount of free press and There's been a tremendous amount of assertion that hey, you know real real real

Muslims are not like this You'd have to wonder what what would have happened if it were like some Christian, you know fanatical person

They would go out of their way to have Christians on the air Defending Christianity, right?

I don't think so. I don't think so either. I don't think so either Changing gears. I I listen to the

Bible instrument a lot and I think often

Would blame the church let's say and and and rightly so I guess about you know, not just talking about the sins of our nation, but there's sin in the church and the church needs to be reformed and but many times

He seems I feel that he has the assumption that if the church

Was reformed that the culture would inevitably be reformed that we wouldn't see so much evil that it wouldn't be so dark

And my question is is that a correct? Assumption couldn't it be that the church?

I know probably impossible could be as pure as possible and follow God, you know perfectly and still this would be just a dark of a world that that You know, that's that's why we would still shine as lights because the world would still be dark

Right. I don't think that there's a promise necessarily that as long as we

Will do our thing if we will submit perfectly to God if we will do the things we need to be doing and if God has blessed us with a

Spirit that truly causes us to desire to be submissive to his law so and so over that that's going to translate into some sort of great revival in the land

There's there's a person who's on the radio all the time Who speaks much of the

Christian worldview and the necessity of the Christian worldview? but who never seems to Make the connection that we can think in the proper way

We can we can hold to a Christian worldview all we want But you're my holding to a

Christian worldview is not going to change your heart if your heart has not been changed by the

Spirit of God, right and so that particular individual for example doesn't seem doesn't feel there's any inconsistency in talking about a person where they become a

Protestant or a Roman Catholic the the nature of the gospel to him isn't doesn't matter as long as we have a Christian worldview

I of course immediately say how can you have a Christian worldview if you don't know what the gospel is I don't see the connection at that particular point so Yeah, there's at the very least

All Christians are being forced to think through their belief in their their worldview in such a way as to I think expose a lot of the differences we have

I know one thing the experiences We were going through with the previous eight years never caused

Christians to think this deeply so What's going to be the result?

I do not know, but I do know one thing Christians are going to be called upon to sacrifice to give up something for speaking the truth and the lines are being drawn

Basically the responses that we're getting to the To the Webpage articles into the programs have have either been thank

God someone's saying this or You people are are the scum of the earth, and that's that's a nice way of putting it

Yeah, so it's it's definitely shall we say clarifying things hot or cold

There's not not too many people are are lukewarm on a subject like this one last question last week

I Kind of hoping you would talk about America's reaction to what happened from a

Christian perspective is it is it biblical to to Go to war how does the whole justice thing?

Work out with also as Christians Jesus telling us to love our enemies.

How are we to I? Don't know how are we to think of? I Well, I think it's a very good question.

I think that that there is a biblical basis for Any nation that is attacked and in an unprovoked manner as this was unprovoked

And I think we need to realize that from from the perspective of the people who did this this was not terrorism

This was a military thing that is the idea that you have to have a uniform on and you have to be part of an

Army to engage in military action is a very Western way of thinking one of our problems

Is we don't think like people over there think they don't understand that that's not a part of their culture It's not a part of their their their concept and so these people that did this they're their heroes and their soldiers

So this was this was an attack upon the United States it was military in nature from their perspective, and it was had a very

Direct purpose and I think that on a national level the

United States has every basis and in fact must part of the part of the reason for the existence of government is to punish evildoers and we recognize that in the

Old Testament there was a And in the New Testament for example the New Testament does not overthrow this there were

Christians who were in the army there were people who were involved in as magistrates and Protecting the people and punishing evildoers and so on and so forth and certainly there is a basis for Going after terrorism.

There is a basis for doing all of these things what concerns me is not that I think that we we pray for God's will to be done and certainly we pray for Christians who are in the military we pray that God would be would do what he did during the

Civil War for example and we hear the stories of where Union and The Confederate forces would lay down their arms and and and join on opposite sides of a river for example to sing hymns and to see baptisms and things like that there was a tremendous revival that went on during that time even during a tremendous period of bloodshed in fact and We can pray for them on that level what concerns me

On many levels is the idea that well If we pray to God he will automatically guarantee that our military forces will have success

I see no basis for that whatsoever and in fact a nation that sends out its military that is

Unrepentant and unwilling to repent in any way shape or form in fact wants to persecute those who call it for repentance is absolutely setting its military up for a for disaster and if our vaunted the only thing that's keeping

Many more things like this from happening in our nation is the fear of our military power

And if our military power was to be shown to be less than what the world thinks it is

I don't know what would happen I don't I don't know that we could even

We could even defend our own borders if that were to happen and so God has ways of Humiliating prideful nations and what can really concerns me is that we are very prideful

We almost feel like how dare you do this to us. We are America Well, there's there's that does not show any sense of Repentance whatsoever and you know, we had the big thing last night where all the

Hollywood stars come on and you're right over there in That area I guess is that basically the area you're in then? Yep And the night before I had been

I was looking for something. I forget what it was, but I was looking for something On TV and I turned to a show that I've never watched.

I think it's called just shoot me I think that's what it's called. It's got a little mealy -mouthed blonde -haired guy on it or something like that And I can't

I wasn't totally certain but I got the distinct impression David Carradine appeared on it all of a sudden and and All I know is

I got the distinct impression that this woman that was there sort of scantily clad was actually a transvestite

Or it had a sex change operation or something. So here on the networks you have

Sexual debauchery and fornication and all this stuff going on And then the next night we're singing songs and singing saying god bless

America and I go, excuse me. I'm Isn't that Jeremiah 7 didn't didn't we see this somewhere before?

Am I the only one who sees this type thing? And then when I pointed out people go Oh, yeah, that's a mean nasty person and bad men bad men that type of thing.

So, you know, I don't know It's it's truly amazing. But hey, we've actually got two other callers online So I need to thank you very much for calling in.

Thank you very much for a kid Please pray for us for our our safety and our continuation. We would truly appreciate it.

Thank you very much. God bless eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three you want to queue up the the break in there real quick, we'll go ahead and Grab that real fast and then come back with Keith and I'm not sure if we still have carry or not, but we'll get to all the callers at eight six six eight five four 67 63 we'll be right back and without any threats of my singing

Or any cajoling and aiming directly at people in the chat room anything else. We actually have the lines full today

I think there's a lot of folks who Want to comment on this particular subject. So let's get right to them and let's talk with Keith in Ohio Hi Keith.

Hi, dr. White. How are you doing? Good good Where there's so much to Excuse me go over here in this situation.

I Find it really disturbing and you probably do as well how in this country right now

There seemed to be an inordinate number of people that are willing to just walk on eggshells when it comes to talking about Islam and They want to go out of their way to not offend

Anybody who practices the Islamic religion and yet They don't seem to care at all about offending

Fundamentalist Christians Jerry Falwell comes to mind. Oh, yeah. I have heard the most vicious attacks leveled against that man

He was on Geraldo Rivera's show not long ago and Geraldo just I mean just viciously attacked him called him

He just said he was despicable and I've heard a lot of people comparing a Falwell to the terrorist and it just really strikes me as Odd and I think it's just indicative of our thinking these days that We really it doesn't make sense that somebody would want to go out of their way to defend a religion

Granted they don't all agree with terrorism But yet it is this religion that is open to that kind of interpretation that leads to this kind of thing

They're willing to defend that and yet they're willing to slam patriotic Fundamentalist Christians.

Well, I think the the basis of this has been laid for the past 20 years We've commented on it, but we just haven't seen it come to its full bore.

And I think what you're seeing here is these individuals know that it is not

Islam that provided the the foundation of The moral laws of our society that so many of these elements of society are dead set upon Repealing and getting rid of they know it's not

Islam that gave us those things They know that it's Christianity and they know that it's Christianity. It's Christians who say no this is the only way now right now one of the one of the differences here is that most of The Muslims in the

United States because they are still a vast minority. They're not in places like England But in the

United States, there's still a vast minority most the Muslims here are soft -selling the the

Islamic religion for example, I heard here in Arizona they were interviewing a a

Muslim cleric from out near Arizona State University and He made the assertion that it that Islam means peace and I I went oh, wait a minute a

Muslim is a person who is who is submitted to Allah and when you think about what their prayers are and when you think about how one converts to these things

They're really they are really soft -selling it right now They're really soft -selling the objective elements of it that says no it really can't fit with other religious systems

And I think if they were to stop doing that Then then they would define themselves under the wrath of these subjectivists as well but right now hey if it's if you can take a shot at At Jerry Falwell, then you're always looking for a way to do it in fact.

I I noticed last evening Jay Leno was struggling mightily to do his monologue.

He even made a comment at one point. This is really hard You can't make fun of politicians, but While he wouldn't say a word about Gary Condit Which he had been ripping on for who knows how long?

He did find a way To rip on Jerry Falwell of course so he wouldn't talk about Bush He wouldn't talk about anyone else as long as you're a politician right now.

You're safe, but Jerry Falwell can be shot at for anything exactly yeah, and what you said about Islam and they're the way they're presenting it kind of goes along with what else

I wanted to Bring up the whole the relationship between terrorism and Islam and the statements

And I'm hearing people make right now that I think are really really careless for the most part And I think

Muslims are making them as well of course like you said they're not going to be talking about declaring a holy war While they're right here in the country at least while they're not in power

But I think I'm hearing two statements and the first statement is that Not all

Muslims believe that the jihad is wielding the sword and killing people and the second statement Islam doesn't allow for that kind of activity

And those are two vastly different statements and people are bringing those two statements together as if they're saying the same thing

And they're not I I realize and I'm thankful that not all Muslims are terrorists

I want to blow up buildings or wage jihad or holy wars But the fact of the matter is the

Islamic religion the Quran itself and the hadith allow that kind of possibility And there's there aren't enough people bringing that up, and I think it's really dangerous

And that's why I would love for you to do some segments on Islam I really think Christians need to be prepared to answer some of the sloppiness

Well, there's there's a dearth of information I know there's answering Islam org and there there are a couple of places that are out there

Sam Shamoon's out there doing doing his work and some good folks that are out there doing that I don't claim to be an expert my knowledge of it is is actually far more historical than it is specifically theological

But they are taking advantage of the general ignorance of not only the media but of most

Christians as well regarding what the actual beliefs of the

Islamic faith are what the foundations of the Islamic faith are and this has really brought it to a

To a head and I think that all of us are going to be learning a lot more in the future than we knew now

We just need to make sure that we are utilizing the best information available To be able to do that because there's you know, there's good books and there's bad books

There's good sources and bad sources on on all of these things And if we don't recognize the the variety that exists amongst especially

American Muslims It's sort of like it would be sort of like my saying well Roman Catholics believe

X Y or Z and you know that in the United States there is a You'll you'll find a

Roman Catholic believes almost anything Because Rome will not it will not basically practice her

She won't practice any major discipline here within the United States. So you get a really wide variety of viewpoints

Well same thing happens with Islam But I think if you really want to see what Islam is about you go to Islamic nations

You don't go to places where Islam is the minority go to places where Islam is the majority and see how they treat people

And then you discover that in Indonesia and the Sudan You ask what those

Muslims do with Christians and the answer is not a pretty thing at all Yeah, and I'm really that's a great point.

I'm really surprised. Dr. White that more apologists right now I mean usually great usually out apologists that are very outspoken for the most part

I'm not hearing those kind of statements coming from them. I'm hearing from From usually very

Fervent apologetics ministries of more of this. Well, we don't need to be worrying about whether or not

Muslims are praying at these interfaith Meetings that's the president's job to bring us together and show the world that we do every legislator

I'm hearing statements like that and I'm thinking what is going on here. Well, I I'll be honest with you

I don't network very well and We've we've always I'm not sure for all the reasons, but we've always recognized that God has kept a small very small ministry so that we can say what we need to say and I've offended about every religious group.

There is to offend and therefore I don't really worry too much about it You know, I mean we're sitting here on a webcast and we've got you know 38 people in the chat room and you know that for most folks that's not exactly a huge audience.

So I've that may be one of the reasons why we can address this in in that way

I don't know, but I don't know how long that can last because The facts of the matter are that we have to address what

Islam is saying and address it clearly I have always said there is no salvation in Islam Allah is not the

God that we worship there is a Fundamental denial of the God that we worship and the gospel that we proclaim in Islam.

There can be no Peace in that sense on a spiritual level we can live next door to the

Muslim Just like I can live next door to the Mormon and I can help that person but I have to share the gospel with them and If we're not willing to do that, you know

What really bothers me and I was gonna say this and I we've got two more callers And so I got to say it fast

But I'm gonna you can be online while I step on millions of more toes as this millions of people were ever to hear this but I Think one of the

I think one of the reasons that we're seeing what we're seeing here. Is that there has the the

American idea has so become a part of American evangelicalism that We see this in our worship.

Anything goes in worship today. Yeah, the idea that God Actually reveals what is pleasing to him and worship is not very popular in American evangelicalism

We feel that God needs to be pleased with whatever we offer him. Therefore because there is wishy -washy ness in what

God asked for us in worship and since he's Seeking us. He's seeking worshippers who worship in spirit and in truth then if then if Worship is sort of wishy -washy.

It's not really something that's concrete and knowable then why not have why not have a

Muslim cleric and Well, we're really not worshiping now anyways, what is prayer I mean

I got I got my head handed to me on a platter When I was at Boston College because at the end of a debate at Boston College and most of the people there were

Roman Catholics but the moderator was an inner varsity press guy and A guy stood up and asked a question said you know what?

I really think that these debates they tend to divide and also could we could we all stand together and hold hands and Say the

Lord's Prayer together, right? Well, you can pretty much guess what I did, right? Oh sure, I didn't and they were mad at me.

They were so mad at me for how dare you say stuff like this Sadly, I think

I'd be in even a smaller minority today Than then because the idea that God can define what his worship is and prayer is worship

That's what's been lost. That's one of the reasons we had this kind of stuff happening. I really think so Yeah, it's very very tragic

Well keep standing by the truth and defending it and just know that there are people out there who are not against you

Well, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Okay. All right. God bless. Thank you. God bless. Bye 866 -854 -6763

Let's talk with Carrie Carrie all the way over in Orlando, Florida.

Hello, Carrie. Hey, how you doing doing? Well, I appreciate your willingness to take this Issue on head -on speak

I I didn't I wasn't looking for it But I just felt like I needed to dress it last week

And then when I get start getting the emails and the responses that I that I got some of which

Well, I use Eudora and it puts up little hot peppers when profanity comes along So when you start getting hot pepper messages, you know, you know, you just you stepped on a few toes in the process

But I've been taking kind of a survey of there's a full group that I would listen to either there of the Internet or on the radio and Among the people that I normally hear a lot of agreement

I'm definitely hearing a lot of different views Listen to Hank Hanegraaff quite a bit and he was in the wake of the the

Falwell backlash he was you know encouraging leaders to pause a bit before they respond and and You know think through all the implications it didn't get to hear his whole thing

John MacArthur appears to be taking it on pretty in a pretty firm way But something that strikes me and then you'd mentioned that you know not being an expert on on Islam Of course, you're gonna be asked a lot of questions.

Oh, yeah One thing that's always puzzled me I'm trying to and I think you'll find this interesting

I've tried to compare Islamic fatalism with the reformed evangelical view of sovereignty and The thing that you'll find interesting about this, of course

This is an area of that you've gotten into a lot on the right warm side I picked up my my

Geisler Apologetics and so I'm learning about Islam to that. He's got, you know, a pretty good article on that But you know what strikes me as his his criticisms of Islamic fatalism

Sound very similar to the criticisms of Reformed theology. They're not only similar.

They're identical In this respect and that is that I was looking at. Dr. Geisler is the work on Islam the book answering

Islam and Just yesterday and as I thumbed through it in response to an email that was sent to me lo and behold

I find the exact same Citation at the end of the chapter critiquing

Islam's view of God that he used in his appendix against me in the new edition of chosen but free and said that we hold the identical position and I I didn't get to that point in the appendix before I realized that The appendix was so flawed.

It really wasn't worth continuing on with it But one of the things I was going to point out is that the the

Muslim idea of this What is what is completely and totally missing and seemingly in the understanding of the reformed perspective by those who are not is

The fact that when we speak of God's sovereignty and fatalism fatalism, first of all is impersonal

It is not something to where a personal God is Working out his own glory in the redemption of his own people in an so intensely personal way that he himself enters into Human flesh so as to suffer and die in their place and have them

Come into a position of unity of union with him so that his death becomes their death

His resurrection becomes their resurrection his life becomes their life. There is there is a

Muslim would have Absolutely positively no concept within his own Context of what in the world that could be about that is considered utterly blasphemous

To the Muslim and so it is only by removing the very personal nature of the relationship between the

Savior and his elect people that a merely mechanical view of divine sovereignty in God's decrees

Can be constructed and then paralleled with the chess piece Quotation that dr.

Geisler used in his book I'm not sure if he used the same quote in the encyclopedia or not But he uses a chess piece quote in in his book on Islam and then also used that in referring to me as well in in his appendix and so Yeah, that's that's disappointing certainly, but Yeah, you're exactly right as soon as you mentioned that I found that ironic that I was sitting there looking looking at dr.

Geisler's book only yesterday and noticed the exact same thing Obviously once I once I saw that similarity that it wasn't

It wasn't useful anymore for for me to to to contrast the two because You know,

I've heard that accusation before Where from another evangelical Christian that that my position on God's sovereignty

I had more in common with with a Muslim than with The body of Christ I of course, you know

We're shocked by that but that is that is you know, as soon as somebody unfamiliar with the issues sees that sees that similarity just like the similarity between a

Radical Islamic fundamentalist and somebody who has a You know it adheres to biblical inerrancy these similarities there they will seize that and We live in a day of fuzzy thinking and unfortunately many evangelicals are afraid of the fuzzy thinking of others

Not so much because we're too lazy to do the work to point it out But I think many of us realize we don't have a clear enough handle on the issues ourselves to be able to explain how the alleged similarity is

Not a valid comparison, right? We we are not trained within Many of our churches and I I'm very happy to say that this is not the case in our fellowship

I'm the Sunday school teacher. So so we we watch debates and do stuff all the time, but but in many places

We are not trained to think with the clarity That is required of us in our society and in this position that we are in now in our society to Not only acknowledge where there are similarities but to demonstrate where those similarities differ from one another and As a result, we're just we're just afraid because we feel that people

We feel that we still have to get people to believe what we we believe on the basis of their Desiring to do so they're they're finding our presentation

Pleasant or our presentation to be somehow More attractive rather than trusting that Christ's sheep will hear his voice

That that is another that's going to be another way in which the Reformed community. We should respond and I don't mean

Historically Reformed. I mean there are liberal Presbyterians out on the you know The left end of the dock that have no idea what the world

I'm talking about and think I'm a complete and total nut But the truly Reformed people those who believe in biblical inerrancy and believe in the inspiration of scripture and yet believe everything the scripture says

Those folks are going to respond to this if they're consistent Differently now even

Reformed folks have their traditions and they can be influenced by the world around us But if we're consistent, we'll respond differently

It's late at night I've got they've got the the past dividing line broadcast streaming over my computer

I've actually built a time it right Well, that's gonna change when

Wednesday light savings time hit is it end of October begin I think the beginning of October isn't like the first weekend.

Yeah, you guys don't participate in that. No. No see we in Arizona We leave our stinking clocks alone.

All right, we don't fall forward. We don't trip backwards We don't do any of that spree. We don't spring fall trip any of that stuff

Because I think it's unnatural. I really think it's unnatural to play with your clock Don't you think I mean I God created time

It's supposed to keep going at the same rate quit playing with the things besides that when we did it once back about 1977

I think it was for one one year We we experimented with because we were sick and tired of explaining why half the year were in Pacific Daylight Time and half the year were in Mountain Standard Time And at you know in July out here

It'll be it'll still be sunshine and a hundred and eleven degrees at ten o 'clock at night So, you know, it's sort of hard to go to bed, you know at that particular point in time

So we just said ah forget it. So anyways, all righty, sir. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye All right, eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three excellent calls today.

Thank you all of you who have called I know I am extremely encouraged by The callers today.

I really am but it's always encouraging to have response From the from the chat room

I'm being told it's October 28th. It is that it is the end of October. Yeah So all the way to the end of October that I know

I absolutely know That it used to be the first weekend, October I know it because the the hours would change while we were driving back from Salt Lake City And that's all it's the first week in October so somebody changed something

I I Don't I don't know why and I don't know who the

Grand Poobah of time is but anyways, that's I am being told by the little man behind the curtain mp3

Available soon. What mp3 is this? Is this gonna be of the dividing lines or of all of our programs or or what?

What's that gonna be? Yes The Dividing lines and one program will be two bucks

Three part download to start. Is that correct? Okay, that sounds good Very quickly the a question was asked in in the chat room and I'm really not sure exactly how to to respond to it and my recollection was that it was somewhere along the lines of well if you say that The events in New York and Washington were a part of God's punishment, how do you know that for certain?

Well because the fact that When the scriptures say that there is calamity in the nation and there's calamity in the city

It is God who has done this. We've already seen Isaiah 45 7 come by in in the chat room when

God removes his hand of protection it is always for a purpose it is for a corrective purpose and So if someone were to say well, you know, how do you know this isn't just well then then you stop and go

Just what coincidence there is no such thing as coincidence in in God's God's economy and when you look at a land whose blood who's the blood of innocent children is dripping from the fingers of the leaders of the land and When you look at the land,

I don't know about the rest of you I have an AOL account and I I would love to get rid of it But I can't because my

AOL Address is in some my previous books. And so once in a blue moon, I still get something there

Don't send anything to my AOL account. I only check it every few days, but it is filled with spam filled with garbage stuff and half the stuff is pornographic or for Sex aides and all the rest of this stuff.

I mean This is a nation absolutely sopping in sin sopping in depravity and So if it's not punishment, it certainly isn't blessing so what else could it be really becomes the question at that that particular point in time and So God has a purpose in all things and I I know one thing

I Am very thankful that I am NOT like those many religious people

Who in answering the big question Recently had to answer it in such a horrifically shallow way

So many of the original of so many of the the leading religious leaders

In essence had to say well God God had God had nothing to do with this God will help us now, but God had nothing to do with this

You know what that means. Do you know what price there is on that? the price on that is very simple the price on that is

No more meaning no more meaning We've heard of the policeman

Or was the fireman a policeman or a fireman who was had just turned in his retirement papers and he rushed to the world trade centers and he died and If you do not have a positive decree of God if you do not have a

God who's all -wise if you do not have a God who is pursuing an End in this world, which will always be an end which brings him honor and glory

Which will always be holy and just in its outcome and in its purposes If you don't have that kind of sovereign

God then You have no purpose for anything that takes place in this world

You have purposeless acts you have Purposeless results you have those renegade molecules out there shall we say as RC Sproul put it

And I know that it's a whole lot easier For people to excuse

God to to get God far away, so we don't have to answer the tough questions But it seems to me

That it is a significantly tougher question to explain why

God would create a universe where absolutely purposeless things take place painful things take place

Than it is to answer the question why would God create a universe in which purposeful things happen that results in his glory

For some reason people prefer answering the first the first one not the second one

I'm so glad that I'm not in the position of those religious leaders who had to make excuses for God That's what they were doing.

They were making excuses for God And Christians don't have to make excuses for God we can proclaim his truth.

He's big enough to answer his own questions We don't have to think that we have to sum up somehow come up with answers that are going to make people happy because we

Also know that the unregenerate man is not going to accept anything that we say The unregenerate man is not going to accept any

Rational response or any rational truth anyways because remember the unregenerate man is suppressing the truth about God anyways

So you can't expect some kind of fair hearing in that context

So stop trying to get one and don't let it bother you when people land on top of you because they're going to And they've been landed on top of me, and that's fine

That's what you expect when the world No longer notices that you're there and when the world could care less about what you're saying.

That's when you've got a problem That's when you're no longer speaking the truth because the truth will never have a neutral reaction

The the truth will never just get ignored The truth will cause a reaction either by God's grace that that heart

Will repent and bow in obedience or that heart outside of grace

Will continue in its stubborn rebellion Well, I wasn't planning on spending the whole day talking about this, but I do thank the callers who called in I don't know what kind of response we're gonna get to this one, but I I plan on moving other directions in the future

I truly do but thank you for being with us today Pray for us as we continue to speak the truth

Hopefully in love and hopefully on the basis of God's Word. Thanks for tuning in. God bless

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