September 14, 2021 Show with Matt Tarr on “When it Becomes Morally Responsible to Disobey the State for Exceeding Its Authority”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlyle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

01:00

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:09

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:21

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 14th day of September, 2021.

01:30

And that heavy breathing is coming from a very beloved guest of mine.

01:36

His name is Pastor Matt Tarr. He is the pastor of High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania, which happens to be a church revitalization effort in northeastern

01:49

Pennsylvania through the Grace Advanced Ministry of John MacArthur. And today we are going to be addressing a very timely and important theme when it becomes morally responsible to disobey the state exceeding its authority.

02:03

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Matt Tarr. Thanks, Chris.

02:10

I apologize. I didn't realize I was breathing that heavy. I might be the subject. I just wanted to make sure our listeners didn't think

02:19

Darth Vader was my guest today. Well, we'll see the way the conversation goes.

02:24

They might think that in the end anyway. You know, it's funny. I had a professor in seminary, because I tend to be a little bit more of an enthusiastic preacher, or at least

02:36

I used to be much more so. I try to balance myself out a little bit better these days.

02:42

But early on, he once told me that, you know, Matt, you need to make sure that you run at least a mile right before every time you preach, so that you have a little bit of time to wind down.

02:56

Well, I happen to be an enormous fan of lively, thunderous preaching.

03:02

So don't listen to any advice that wears you out before you begin to ascend the pulpit.

03:09

Yeah. Well, my problem was I would start at such high decibels that by the time

03:14

I wanted to emphasize something, I had nowhere else to go. Yes, you know, as long as you're not shouting at the top of your lungs when you're merely announcing a change in the schedule for the

03:31

Ladies Knitting Circle. That's true. Yeah, that's very true.

03:38

I like that. Well, tell our listeners, for those of them who are not familiar with High Point Baptist Church in the

03:45

Larksville, Pennsylvania area, tell us about this congregation. Yeah, well, High Point Baptist Church was actually started in 1892, so quite a long time ago.

03:59

And at that time, it was in the Wyoming Valley area, which is kind of a suburb of Wilkes -Barre.

04:06

Yes. Although, I think, yeah, so Wilkes -Barre might even be technically part of that Wyoming Valley area.

04:11

The locals would, you know, shoot me for not knowing exactly the details about that.

04:16

But I grew up in the Poconos, so that's just a stone's throw from here. But anyway, you know, the church had a lot of history.

04:25

But it was in the early 2000s that the church really made an about -face in its philosophy of ministry.

04:36

And what happened was, you know, they had a pastor, and he moved up, moved the church up to the top of the mountain, built a building that accommodates about 500 folks at a time.

04:48

I'm always leery when a pastor moves his church to the top of a mountain. Yeah, you know, there is a lot to be said.

04:57

You know, when you want to minister to people, there is a lot to be said about being accessible to people.

05:04

So, but, you know, there was a little bit of quasi -Pentecostalism that was beginning, you know, in the congregation, and, you know, some of the

05:17

Lord spoke to me. Does quasi -Pentecostalism mean they fake faking tongues?

05:24

Yeah. You know, I don't know what it... It was a word that I... I made it up. So you can make it mean, you know, we'll be totally post -modern here.

05:33

You can make it mean whatever you want. And I'm sure I just offended some of my very dear friends who

05:39

I actually believe are very biblically sound in spite of our disagreement on tongues.

05:47

I don't mean to insult my Pentecostal and charismatic friends. And there are some among us who are theologically very sound other than the areas of disagreement.

06:00

So I just wanted to make sure that I gave that disclaimer. Yeah, yeah.

06:06

And I, you know, I think it's important to point out, you know, in Acts chapter 2, when, you know,

06:14

Luke is writing about glossolalia, speaking in tongues. It's really an unfortunate

06:20

Old English translation there, of course, because what we're really talking about is spoken languages.

06:27

And that's clear in the context, but what was happening here at High Point was kind of these situations where, you know, there was an elderly lady, very sweet elderly lady.

06:40

She passed away shortly after I arrived here, actually, who had donated a few acres from her farm to the church, and the pastor took that as a sign that they were supposed to be, you know, a light to the valley from, you know, the top of the mountain.

06:58

And so they ended up buying the rest of the farm and built this facility in anticipation of about 1 ,500 people over three services, because at the time there were about 250 packing out three services in town.

07:13

So it was kind of a field of dreams church situation, you know. It was the Lord's sign that we should buy this property and we'll build this building.

07:24

People will come from all over the place. They ultimately did away with their pulpit ministry.

07:32

They started having 15 -minute sermonettes, you know, the classic, very seeker -sensitive, driven model.

07:41

Pastors began going out to Rick Warren's, you know, if you can call it pastor's conference every year, and began to integrate entertainment, drama, and so forth into the service, and that became predominant, because it's always easier to be entertained than to be instructed to appeal to the mind through the ministry of God's Word.

08:09

That takes work. That takes effort. And that isn't even to speak yet of the sanctifying process that occurs when we submit ourselves under the authority of Geruso, of the preaching of the

08:22

Word of God. So interestingly enough, you know, the last time

08:28

I was on, I was talking about my doctoral dissertation, and this was really the investment of my study in evaluating in the

08:37

Church of Corinth the byproducts, the adverse consequences of this, what really amounts to the

08:47

Corinthian sophistry, this manipulative, entertainment -driven rhetoric that put on a really great display but really did not emphasize substance.

09:02

Substance was secondary, because the goal was always the result.

09:09

Litvin would call that persuasion, but really when Litvin is talking about persuasion, he's talking about this manipulative kind of persuasion.

09:20

It's a manipulation that is devoid of truth or not based in truth or reality, and that's really the issue that we're going to circle back around to later today, but the result in Corinth was the same as the result here at High Point.

09:36

Factions began to develop everywhere, because ultimately people become increasingly immature in the faith, because they're not being built up in the faith.

09:47

Their roots aren't going deep, and they're not being fed well, they're not being watered well, and the church split in,

09:56

I think it was December 2012, and all of a sudden overnight you had about 90 people holding the keys to the mortgage, or the keys to the building and the paper for the mortgage, and at that point it was really obvious that there were a lot of changes that needed to be made.

10:15

They were trying to implement some of those changes already, that's ultimately what led to the split, because there were quite a number of people who were not in agreement with being more careful in philosophy, in their philosophy of ministry, in emphasizing the preaching of the

10:32

Word, in being more selective and careful in the music selection, and also evaluating the appropriateness, or lack of appropriateness, of entertainment in corporate worship.

10:47

It doesn't belong there. So there were a lot of folks that were upset with that, and they ultimately left the church.

10:57

So that was when they became a grace -advanced revitalization effort. There was a faithful remnant of people who stuck it out, who contended earnestly for the faith.

11:11

They wanted to see Christ exalted and God glorified in this little assembly in a massive building.

11:23

And they were eager to learn as well. So I began hearing about this church.

11:31

It was very financially rocky at the time, obviously, because of those mortgage payments that they were making on this still barely over 10 -year -old building.

11:44

But the Lord has been just abundantly gracious. Now we're probably double the size that we were then.

11:53

And a lot of that growth has actually happened just from this last year. As we continue to do what we've always done in terms of practicing the one and others, proclaiming

12:06

God's Word, we don't do anything novel or new. I'm not an especially creative individual, so I don't need to worry about that.

12:18

I just want to be a faithful steward of God's Word. And people have been driving from all over the place just to be shepherded well.

12:29

That is such a beautiful area. I loved visiting High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania during your conference that you had.

12:40

Just a really gorgeous scenery when entering that area.

12:48

We have another one coming up pretty soon. Well, we expect that you'll be there for that,

12:56

Chris. That's the Just Thinking podcast. That's going to be in the spring.

13:03

We don't have an exact date on that. After shepherds, that's about all we know.

13:09

I may be misremembering this, but I thought that you also were having

13:15

Rick Phillips and Phil Johnson. No, that's right. I'm thinking of a different church. Grace Fellowship.

13:20

Well, I'll open the extension, the invitation. Yeah, that was

13:25

Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship in Harrisburg who was having that conference.

13:31

Yeah, that's right. That would have been probably October, I think. Yeah, it's for Reformation Day.

13:38

If anybody wants more information about High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania, go to highpointbaptist .com.

13:51

Now, I know that you, God willing, are going to be attending the same conference that I am attending that I'm very thrilled about, as I always am, the

14:03

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, which is going to be held from Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

14:12

And the speaker lineup is absolutely extraordinary.

14:19

It is a lineup that features my dear friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, John MacArthur, Dr.

14:28

Conrad M. Bayway, Voti Baucom. And yes, you heard me right, folks. We had been saying for a number of weeks that Voti Baucom was taken off the roster because of his health problems, but he is now healthy enough to be replaced, or should

14:50

I say put back on, not replaced, put back on the roster. He, God willing, is going to be there.

14:58

He worked out his schedule to make sure that he was going to be there. And just an amazing, a mind -blowing lineup.

15:08

The theme is Christ is supreme above all, or over all.

15:19

Christ is supreme, as I would say. And you know what you have other than an attendee, you have some kind of a connection with the G3 Conference, because you are going down there to attend some kind of a meeting.

15:31

You don't have to divulge anything that's supposed to be private. But I was just curious, what's your affiliation with Josh Bice and the folks down there?

15:39

Well, really, I'll be heading down early for a meeting with the

15:46

Masters Fellowship. I'm a regional coordinator or director, leader, whatever you want to call it, for the

15:53

Master's Fellowship of Pennsylvania Churches, and that's a fellowship of like -minded churches, like -minded in both conviction and practice, as well as our doctrine, and so there's a leaders meeting that will happen the day before.

16:14

That'll be with John MacArthur, Harry Walls, who is the pastor at Grace Community Church.

16:19

He's also the campus pastor at the Master's University, and he is, you know, he oversees the

16:27

Master's Fellowship of churches across the country, and a few others, you know, that both past and present pastors from Grace Church that will be there to discuss a variety of different issues that the church is working through in our out -of -season culture and to sort of help equip church leaders to maybe think more tightly and biblically about some of these subjects.

17:03

If I remember right, we're really going to be emphasizing faithfulness, which is obviously, well, an ever -present problem.

17:16

Let's put it that way. But that's my connection to G3. Other than that,

17:22

I'm a pastor that'll be heading down there and looking forward to the like -minded fellowship with other like -men.

17:32

Amen. Such as yourself. I'll look for you at the Port -a -Potty. Well, we don't want to alarm our listeners.

17:43

There are no need for Port -a -Potties where we're going. It's going to be held at a very nice facility, as it always is.

17:51

This is a new facility from previous years, but I am sure that it is quite as modern as the others.

18:00

But that's where they always put your boot, isn't that right here? No, I was actually assured by Virgil Walker that this year

18:14

I will be put in a very prominent place, so let's hope that actually happens.

18:20

I, of course, was exaggerating. I was doing some whining recently, because when

18:27

I first started going to the G3, they put me for the first three years in a row,

18:33

I think, or two years in a row, right across from Dr. James R. White's booth for Alpha to Make a

18:39

Ministry, so I got a lot of traffic. Then all of a sudden, last time, I was oddly in the last row of booths that got very little traffic.

18:50

So hopefully this will be different this year. I heard you saying that. When I looked at your recent podcast,

19:00

I saw that James White, of course, had recently done a similar interview with you that we are doing today.

19:07

So I thought it would probably be appropriate for me to at least listen to it, in case reference was made back to some of the points that he did.

19:15

So I was kind of following up with some of those port -a -potty comments there.

19:21

And I'm already starting to get uncomfortable with it, so I'm ready to move on. Well, by the way, folks, if you would like to join me and Pastor Matt Tarr at the

19:34

G3 conference on Christ is Supreme Above All, that is

19:41

Thursday, September 30th, through Saturday, October 2nd. Go to g3conference .com,

19:48

g3conference .com. I really hope to see you there. If you do go, please greet me at my exhibitors booth.

19:56

I would love to meet you face -to -face. One of the highlights of my time at the

20:02

G3 conference is not only meeting a lot of folks that have never listened to the show before, who have become acquainted with it as a result, but also meeting folks that have been long -time fans of the show, who love the show, that I've never heard from before, and also meeting face -to -face for the first time people who have been loyal fans and listeners, who

20:37

I have heard from via email when they sent in questions but never saw them face -to -face.

20:43

So all of those are such a joy, and I am looking forward to more encounters such as all of those.

20:52

That's g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and you'll be hearing the ads during the remainder of the broadcast.

21:00

Well, what was it that actually compelled you to choose the very theme that we are addressing today?

21:12

It's a theme that we have been addressing a lot, but I think it can't be overstated, these issues, especially since the body of Christ is divided over them.

21:25

So why is it that you wanted to speak on when it becomes morally responsible to disobey the state?

21:33

Yeah, well, there are a few things at play here. One goes back several months ago when our previous

21:41

Secretary of Health, Dr. Levin, was appointed to serve in the

21:47

Biden Administration, and at that time, the Acting Health Director that was appointed by Governor Wolf actually has no background in health.

22:02

She is a lawyer, and so as soon as we saw that, our elders sat down, and as we were discussing, one of our elders proposed a subject that we have been addressing in each elders' meeting.

22:16

That subject line is in the event of imposition by the state, and that's what we're looking at.

22:22

When our governor appoints an Acting Secretary of Health that is a lawyer rather than, you know, somebody with a health background, a health expert, or whatever you might call it, why is that more helpful to him?

22:37

Well, it becomes more helpful to him when he is going to push the limits of his legal authority.

22:44

So we began to prepare and expect, as students of history, and even modern history, history as we have seen it occur before our eyes in this last year, to prepare the best response as we can as elders overseeing our flock.

23:05

So you fast forward then until just a few short weeks ago, and all of a sudden our

23:12

Secretary of Health here in Pennsylvania begins requiring, you know, things like masks universally in schools again.

23:22

Governor Wolf was adamant that he wouldn't do that. It would be up to local school boards and so forth.

23:30

And there is even a point to which I disagree with that, but nevertheless, Governor Wolf pledged that he wouldn't be making those requirements, so then the

23:40

Secretary of Health threw her weight into the situation, and as the

23:46

Department of Health official said that schools would have to wear masks.

23:52

And that resulted in a lot of consternation from parents. That has been visible across the entire country.

24:02

This issue has become a highly contentious issue. And what that demonstrates to us is that even if you look beyond the efficacy or non -efficacy of something like a medical device, such as a face mask, and I think that's the appropriate terminology that we should be using.

24:25

It is a medical device. If it's not a medical device, then the Department of Health has no authority to require the medical device.

24:34

But if we refer to it as a medical device, I think that helps us understand that the real principle of objection that parents have, what they're extremely uncomfortable with, even parents that are pro -masks, even parents that want their children wearing masks, are very strongly against being forced to have their children wear masks.

24:56

And the reason is because they understand, and you can see this national pushback, that masks are inherently representative of something.

25:07

In fact, let's pick up right where you left off. The masks are inherently representative of something, because we have to go to our first break.

25:16

If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

25:23

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

25:32

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

25:37

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Matt Tarr after these messages from our sponsors.

25:50

Hello dear ones, my name is Justin Peters, and my friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

26:03

United States. We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,

26:15

Christ is supreme over all. I'll be speaking there, along with over 20 other speakers, including

26:22

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Votie Balcom, Joel Beakey, and James White.

26:27

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's G, the number three, conference, dot com.

26:36

Please join Chris Arnzen and me, September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

26:43

This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

27:14

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

27:24

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

27:32

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

27:38

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

27:44

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

27:58

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

28:07

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

28:14

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

28:24

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you love

28:46

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

28:54

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

28:59

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

29:05

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

29:11

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

29:27

Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

29:43

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

29:54

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

30:00

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

30:09

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

30:17

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

30:25

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

30:33

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. We are excited to announce another new member of the

30:51

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three

30:56

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

31:05

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

31:12

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

31:22

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000. That's 516 -354 -2000.

31:31

Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com. That's L -E -E -S drugsrx .com.

31:40

Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program. Greetings in the matchless name of our

31:47

Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

31:56

In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

32:02

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

32:08

We saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

32:14

God has designed, and He has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

32:24

God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to Him.

32:31

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God, in His infinite mercy, has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be pretty serious.

32:40

Such is the beauty of His design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

32:47

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in His design.

32:54

Thank you. As a mother, I was looking for a magazine that would include devotionals that I could quickly do before school, and had theology and doctrine made very simple for children to understand that they could read themselves or I could walk them through.

33:12

There's tiered content so that you can go to the older group and learn more, or go to a younger section and it's even more simple.

33:21

Join us on our journey in developing our magazine entitled Ignited by the

33:26

Word, which engages and ignites the hearts of our children and young people in their walk with God.

33:34

Order Ignited by the Word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org.

33:40

Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free and put good literature in your children's hands.

34:00

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

34:07

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

34:12

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers who strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

34:29

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

34:35

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us on Lord's Day in worshiping our

34:50

God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

34:58

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

35:06

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

35:12

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

35:20

Welcome back, and I do want to give a shout -out to my dear friend,

35:25

Pastor Bill Sasser of Grace Church at Franklin in Tennessee. The congregation there just bailed me out of a very serious financial pit that I was in.

35:40

And they have certainly helped me climb a bit farther up to sunlight out of that pit through their generous donation.

35:51

And thank you, Pastor Bill. Please extend to your lovely wife,

35:57

Lynn, and all the saints at Grace Church at Franklin my heartfelt thanks and my love.

36:03

You are certainly never underestimated or forgotten, and I look forward to,

36:12

God willing, a sweet time of fellowship with you all soon, if God opens up that door for me to get down to Tennessee again in the near future.

36:22

If you just tuned us in, we are interviewing my friend, Pastor Matt Tarr. He is the pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania.

36:34

And we are addressing the theme, When It Becomes Morally Responsible to Disobey the State. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

36:44

chrisarnsen at gmail .com As always, give me your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

36:50

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own elders over what we are discussing today, and you don't want to draw attention to your identity.

37:03

Or you are an elder or a pastor yourself. You disagree with your own fellow elders, perhaps. You disagree with your denomination, or whatever is the case that compels you to remain anonymous.

37:13

We understand that. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, country of residence.

37:19

You just before the break, Pastor Matt, started getting into a discussion on the mask mandates, and if you could pick up from where you left off.

37:28

Right. So what I had mentioned, of course, was this universal requirement. What we're really looking at here is the requirement for a medical device to be imposed on our children without parental consent.

37:43

And I'll add, when there is no pandemic. And I say that.

37:48

It was interesting to me. I think with the lawsuits that have followed this breach of authority, the

37:59

Wolf administration filed for an extension. I think there was supposed to be a preliminary hearing here on the 16th.

38:05

And just to let our listeners know, Governor Wolf is the leftist governor of Pennsylvania. That is correct.

38:13

And they argued, because of the global pandemic, face masks are necessary.

38:20

Mandatory face masks are necessary for children in private and public schools, all private and public schools in the state.

38:30

Now, where that becomes a breach of authority here is, well, the state of emergency, the pandemic, was ended officially and lawfully in the state of Pennsylvania in June.

38:47

Now, if there was a state of emergency, if there was a pandemic in the state of Pennsylvania, the

38:52

Wolf administration has the freedom to submit that to the legislature. And the legislature can legally confirm or deny legitimacy of that state of emergency.

39:02

But as it is presently, that's not the case. So what you have now is the requirement of a medical device without parental consent.

39:13

And that's a huge breach of trust. It's a violation of parental authority, really.

39:21

Parents have authority over their children to determine what is best and most healthy for their children.

39:31

And I believe that that's a God -ordained right. That's what I'm going to argue here today. But that has caused a lot of consternation, because now

39:41

Christians are saying, well, but what do we do? Because Romans 13, 1 Peter 2, we are to obey and submit to our governing authorities.

39:48

And yet I strongly object that the government has the right to require a medical device for my children.

39:57

And, again, we're talking about regardless of the mask's efficacy. And so what we're seeing is a conscientious objection to this breach in authority.

40:08

And for many other believers at this point, we're also seeing a conscientious objection because of their representative nature.

40:17

It was just last year. You know, we can be quick to forget this. The National Institute for Health said that face masks are a hoax.

40:26

And then, of course, the New England Journal of Medicine in April 2020 said that masks were a talisman.

40:36

And, of course, we all know how adamant Dr. Fauci was against masks early on.

40:42

And then all of a sudden everything makes it about face. So people are wondering why, and they're beginning to investigate why.

40:52

And we're hearing things like the science says, when really we know the science has not said anything, at the very least conclusive.

41:04

But what we're failing to realize is that ultimately science has declared war against the conscience, against the truth, ever since Darwin's evolutionary theory.

41:17

And the political atmosphere has exploited science to promote its own personal agendas ever since that as well, especially the 1950s.

41:28

In fact, when you said that there's nothing scientifically conclusive about masks, well,

41:35

I happen to know quite a number of people, including my own personal physician,

41:41

Dr. Joel Yeager, who says there are some things that are scientifically conclusive, and that means that it's dangerous and harmful for people to be habitually wearing masks.

41:55

And children, especially, should not be wearing them habitually. And he, in fact,

42:01

I want to let our listeners know, he has an exemption form for your children against the mask mandates that are being pushed in many schools.

42:13

If you go to HeritageFamilyHealth .org, HeritageFamilyHealth .org, you can download this mask exemption form.

42:22

Sorry to interrupt you, but whenever we're talking about this, I like to plug my courageous physician, because he is really risking his practice by being so outspoken against the left's positions on this, and the vaccine's as well.

42:39

That is one of the co -authors of the Coronavirus and the

42:44

Church of Sacred Trust, Rogan. Is that correct? That's exactly correct. Yeah, it's an outstanding book as well.

42:52

And you know what's interesting is that we had a fellow physician recently in our area who did the same thing, and now his medical license is being reviewed.

43:03

So they're looking at revoking his medical license, and schools are rejecting his exemption.

43:12

Disgusting. It is. It's a violation of the

43:17

Hippocratic Oath. Do no harm. Because I agree with you, Chris. When we're talking about the developing lungs here of the healthy, and requiring seven, eight hours a day, five days a week, to wear a medical device, and again, against parental consent, that's a huge problem.

43:40

But what do we do? Because for every article that I show that shows that masks are non -efficacious, or that they're even harmful, such as you mentioned, somebody else can say, well, but I have an article that says that they are useful.

44:00

Look at these studies here. So we're kind of playing this he said, she said game, aren't we?

44:05

Well, not exactly, because we have to understand how science is supposed to work.

44:14

Science, to be science, must subject itself to the scientific method, and the scientific method means that it subjects itself to critical review.

44:25

So what is not happening here? Well, there is no room in this discussion for critical review.

44:38

Whenever a medical journal would be published, or new information or data is published in a medical journal, or whatever the case is, it's always going to subject itself to cross -examination.

44:53

Was there a problem with the test group? Is there a reason why we have to reject the hypothesis because of a mistake that was made, perhaps?

45:06

Or maybe the control group wasn't properly evaluated for the study, and so on and so forth.

45:14

So what happens, though, is that when you prevent the scientific method from occurring by systematically suppressing cross -examination on something like the efficacy of face masks, and that is what's happening.

45:32

You find an article that demonstrates that they don't work, and they are even harmful.

45:40

You've got to save it, and save it quick, because it's going to disappear, or it's going to get redacted.

45:48

And so now you're crossing in this territory from science to pseudoscience.

45:54

And it's interesting, Dr. Paul Hurd, he was, I think, a board member, if I remember correctly, for the

46:02

Smithsonian Institute. He was a professor at Stanford, and he wrote a journal article,

46:08

I think it was in 1998, called Scientific Literacy, New Minds for a Changing World.

46:15

And he lamented the lack of logic that is being taught, even within the scientific community, such that they can't recognize when they are adhering to pseudoscience or they're actually adhering to science.

46:29

So, that's obviously going to be a huge problem, because what that means is that your worldview will govern how you interpret scientific data.

46:42

In biblical studies, we call that asegesis, rather than exegesis, where we allow our worldview, our presuppositions, to be imposed on the text.

46:55

So the text conforms to support our presuppositions and our worldviews, rather than exegesis, where we submit our presuppositions and our worldviews to the text, to the data, the information of scripture, and allow our thoughts to be conformed strictly by the truth, strictly by the evidence.

47:17

So, pseudoscience always claims to maintain that it is fact or it's scientific, even though it fails to meet the rigors that are required by that scientific method.

47:35

And so, because of that, it's often characterized by contradictory claims, exaggeration, it depends on confirmation bias, which means that you have to selectively interpret evidence to support your presuppositions, and it rejects honest evaluation by other scientific experts, and it rejects an openness to continued rigorous attempts at refutation, or an openness to testing of other theories by other experts, because true science might not achieve the desired outcome.

48:07

So, we're realizing that this is occurring more and more, and the result is, at the very least, parents are saying,

48:19

I want to be able to have the authority to determine whether or not their child should be forced to wear a medical device when their child is otherwise healthy.

48:41

And beyond that, of course, we have the recent declaration by the

48:49

Biden administration, and so the same logic carries itself over into that domain as well.

48:57

Does my employer or does the government have the right to require of me a vaccine that I may conscientiously object to?

49:06

There was, in fact, I got a message from a member of our congregation yesterday, and so, again, confirming that these are issues that people in our church and our little assembly are dealing with.

49:22

I got a call from a community of parents, local parents from a variety of school districts, trying to help however

49:33

I can in helping parents walk through defending and protecting their conscience on this issue.

49:43

But anyway, this member messaged me yesterday. He said, Matt, my hematologist, his physician that he sees for cancer treatments, he's refusing to see any patients who haven't received their

50:01

COVID shot. He said, so my hematologist won't see me because I haven't gotten my

50:09

COVID shot. How utterly infuriating that is. That's disgusting.

50:15

And it really is. And so believers see the trajectory. We understand the trajectory of these things.

50:22

And these are very serious issues when we have assembly bill,

50:28

I think it was 455, maybe it was 411. I think it was 455, though, that they tried to discreetly pass in California a couple of weeks ago.

50:38

In fact, we have to pick you up right where we left off there because we have to go to our midway break now, Pastor Matt.

50:44

But let's pick up where you were talking about a loved one of yours, a friend, a loved one, and the hematologist who refuses to see him or her because of a refusal to get vaccinated.

51:01

Truly a chilling thing indeed. And I have become convinced that such a physician is either operating out of fear or trying to maintain or rise in a position of popular popularity with the government or some other issue.

51:25

But they have to know that these these vaccines are really practically not only worthless for what they are intended, but dangerous.

51:35

But we have to go to our midway break right now, folks. Please keep in mind that this is the longer than normal break in our show.

51:48

We ask of you to please be patient with us as Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

51:54

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer than normal break in the middle of the show because they are required by the

52:02

FCC to localize

52:08

Iron Sherpins, So while they do that during this longer break, we simultaneously air our own globally heard commercials.

52:26

Please use this time wisely. Please write down the information provided by our advertisers, as many of them as possible, so that you can more frequently and successfully reply, respond to our advertisers, whether that be by patronizing them through the purchase of products, the use of services, the support of parachurch organizations or the visiting of churches.

52:55

But when you can't do any of that, we ask of you, please, to at the very least respond to our advertisers by thanking them for sponsoring

53:07

Iron Sherpins Iron. Contact them and say, thank you so much for keeping my favorite program,

53:16

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio on the air through your advertising. And of course, that is if that is indeed how you feel and what you think,

53:25

I should say. So please respond to our advertisers as much as you can. And also, please send in your questions to Matt Tarr about when it is appropriate to disobey the governing authorities.

53:44

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you're outside the

53:53

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back.

54:05

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sherpins Iron Radio and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the

54:14

G3 conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme

54:22

Christ is supreme over all. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching and singing, including

54:31

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker.

54:37

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

54:44

September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

55:03

When Iron Sherpins Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

55:09

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

55:17

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

55:22

NASB. I'm author Gary DeMar, president of American Vision and the

55:27

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Dan LeBennick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station, New York and the

55:35

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries and the

55:41

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Reverend Buzz Taylor, author of God's Lawson and the

55:48

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Bottle Ground, Washington, founder of the ministry

55:57

Christian Resources and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

56:03

I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York and the

56:08

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia and the

56:17

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

56:23

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

56:29

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

56:38

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

56:48

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

56:55

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments and certifications.

57:00

But do you know what requires no training at all? Becoming a parent. My name is

57:06

A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parents and host of its award winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

57:14

And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

57:21

That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

57:27

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

57:39

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

58:15

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

58:24

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

58:30

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

58:39

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit GetWorldNow .com

58:45

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It at WNG .org

58:53

forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

59:06

Why can't we see God? How do we know we picked the right

59:11

Bible? Why do we go to church on Sunday? Parents, if your kids have questions about God's Word and His creation, they would love to read our new reformed magazine called

59:24

Ignited by the Word. This magazine is packed full of devotionals,

59:30

Bible stories, church history, poems, activities, and more to encourage you and kids of all ages in their walk with God.

59:39

Created by a team of teachers, ministers, mothers, fathers, and more, we know how important it is to have

59:47

Christian literature in our homes. Order Ignited by the Word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org.

59:56

Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free.

01:00:10

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

01:00:15

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:00:23

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

01:00:29

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

01:00:39

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

01:00:45

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

01:00:54

Nestle All -in -28th Edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

01:01:01

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

01:01:12

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

01:01:22

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

01:01:30

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Here's what

01:01:44

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

01:01:51

Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

01:02:00

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

01:02:08

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

01:02:14

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

01:02:21

Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. Hello, my name is

01:02:29

Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

01:02:37

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

01:02:44

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

01:02:54

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

01:03:01

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

01:03:10

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

01:03:16

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

01:03:22

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

01:03:29

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the

01:03:35

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

01:03:44

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

01:03:49

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

01:03:55

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the

01:04:04

Shoals. Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

01:04:14

Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants, as well as radio stations, theological seminaries, and various programs for unreached people groups.

01:04:26

With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel, it is a blessing to see how

01:04:33

God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as locally.

01:04:40

To find out more about this vital work worldwide, visit anchoredintruth .org.

01:04:52

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

01:04:59

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:05:06

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

01:05:14

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.

01:05:20

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:05:27

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

01:05:34

Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

01:05:43

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

01:05:51

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:05:56

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:06:02

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future.

01:06:11

And to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world. Since its beginning in 2001,

01:06:18

Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com.

01:06:28

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com. And see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:06:37

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please, folks, always remember that Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:06:47

is a primary, a premier, a vital sponsor of this broadcast.

01:06:52

Without their continued advertising and the funding that comes with it, we would likely be forced to go off the air, barring a miracle from God financially.

01:07:00

So please visit Solid -Ground -Books .com frequently and purchase generously.

01:07:05

And always keep in mind, you're not only going to be doing Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:07:12

a favor by buying books from them, and you're not only going to be doing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a favor by keeping one of our most important advertisers happy, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing gifts from Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:07:29

an enormous favor of incalculable value because they bring back into print and publish for the very first time nothing but the finest in Reformed Christian literature, dating back to the

01:07:42

Protestant Reformation and extending all the way forward to our present day, featuring such modern -day authors as Dr.

01:07:49

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. So remember, visit Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:07:55

today, purchase generously, and please mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:08:06

Before I return to my discussion with Pastor Matt Tarr of High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania, as we discuss when it becomes morally responsible to disobey the state, we just have some important announcements to make.

01:08:23

If you are a man in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, an elder, and by the way,

01:08:28

I believe that's the same office, a deacon, a parachurch leader, whatever leadership position you hold as a man in the church or parachurch organization, we invite you to a free event that you will not regret attending.

01:08:46

It is the biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon, and this month we are featuring for the very first time ever my dear friend, dating back to 1995,

01:09:00

Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kibwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

01:09:06

I believe he is the most powerful living preacher alive on the planet Earth. I am not using hyperbole, exaggeration, or sinful flattery.

01:09:15

I really believe that. And he has been featured at major conferences such as the

01:09:21

Strange Fire Conference hosted by Dr. John MacArthur and the

01:09:27

G3 Conference that you heard us speaking about earlier, and many other prominent conferences around the

01:09:34

United States and globally. So if you want to attend this conference for free, just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:09:41

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Remember, this is a men's only luncheon. And not only are you going to be getting free admission and being fed for free, but you're also going to be leaving with a very heavy sack of brand new free books donated by major Christian publishers and also some relatively unknown

01:10:06

Christian publishers that happen to be publishing some of the best stuff that exists, who every year donate 100 copies each of a specific title that I select from them myself in order to accommodate every single man in attendance at the luncheon.

01:10:28

All of this is free of charge. In fact, not only is it all free of charge, nothing is for sale at this event, which was by the insistence of my precious late wife,

01:10:40

Julie, who launched these luncheons in the 1990s, and I've been conducting them ever since, relaunched them here in Pennsylvania after doing them for years in New York, and have been doing it in her memory ever since she went home to be with Christ for eternity.

01:10:58

So this will be held Monday, September 27th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the

01:11:04

Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Take a plane, train, automobile, or parachute to Carlisle.

01:11:12

If you do not live locally, it will be worth the trip, especially because of the dollar value of the free brand -new books that you'll be going home with.

01:11:23

And I just hope that many of you listening register. We've already got a lot of people registered, but we are looking forward to many more registering.

01:11:32

And send me an email if you'd like to register to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line.

01:11:37

And by the way, Pastor Matt Tarr, I'm assuming you are familiar with the preaching of Dr.

01:11:44

Conrad Mbewe, aren't you? Oh yeah, absolutely, of course. Yeah, truly a faithful man.

01:11:50

Outstanding. Yes, he is. Yeah, so I agree with you, yeah. Well, send those emails to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:11:57

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Also, folks, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, please,

01:12:04

I'm urging you, go to ironsherpensirenradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate.

01:12:10

Now, you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

01:12:17

If you prefer snail mail, sending in checks the old -fashioned way through your local postal service, a physical address will appear on the screen when you click support at ironsherpensirenradio .com

01:12:29

as well. You can make those checks made payable to Ironsherpensiren Radio.

01:12:34

If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what

01:12:40

I believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what

01:12:46

I believe, then send me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

01:12:52

We are in urgent need of your advertising dollars as well as your donations. The coronavirus pandemic hysteria and the abuse of authority by local and federal governments have hurt, have harmed very dramatically many people in our audience, and therefore the giving to Ironsherpensiren Radio has gone down dramatically.

01:13:15

We are in urgent need of your help, perhaps more than ever before. And by the way,

01:13:22

I want to thank all of you over this weekend who have been sending in your donations.

01:13:29

When you heard my cries for help last week, I have been so humbled and so blessed, and I've been crying out to God in praise and thanksgiving and gratitude to Him for you.

01:13:45

There are such precious, generous people who listen to this show who have been coming to the rescue, sending in their donations.

01:13:53

I want to thank you all so much. You are helping us to slowly crawl out of this financial pit we are in.

01:14:03

So if you love the show and you haven't given yet, please consider it. Please prayerfully consider it if you don't want us to go off the air.

01:14:11

And let me give you this caveat that I try to remember to tell you every day.

01:14:18

One of the main reasons I started Ironsherpensiren Radio in 2005 was to be a friend, a platform, a helping hand, and an extension of the local pastor and the local church, including

01:14:31

Pastor Matt Tarr of High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania. I never want to do anything that hinders or harms the ministry of the local pastor and the local church, including financially.

01:14:44

So please do not suck money, siphon money away from your regular giving to your own local church in order to give to Ironsherpensiren Radio.

01:14:53

In other words, don't give your own church less money in order to bless us financially. Please don't do that.

01:15:00

Also, if you are really struggling to survive, hold off on giving to Ironsherpensiren Radio.

01:15:05

I don't want to be responsible for food being taken off your table and you being plunged into further financial peril as a result of giving to Ironsherpensiren Radio.

01:15:15

Those two things are commands of God in Scripture providing for your church and providing for your family.

01:15:20

Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God in Scripture. But if you do love this show and you're financially blessed by God above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for recreational and trivial purposes, and you do not want this show to disappear, please go to ironsherpensirenradio .com,

01:15:43

click support, then click to donate now. We really need your help. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local

01:15:51

Bible -believing church, a biblically faithful church, a theologically sound church like High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania, no matter where on the planet

01:16:02

Earth you live, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I may have churches or a church right in your area no matter where in the world you live.

01:16:15

I've helped many people in our audience all over the planet find churches right near them, sometimes within minutes of their own home that they didn't know existed or they didn't know that those churches they passed every day were theologically sound.

01:16:28

So if that is you, if you do not have a biblically faithful church, no matter where on the planet Earth you live, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:16:37

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Pastor Matt Tarr, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:16:47

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We are discussing when it becomes morally responsible to disobey the state.

01:16:53

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:17:02

And before I go to any of our listeners who are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, before the break,

01:17:08

Pastor Tarr, you were talking about someone you know who was refused visitation to a physician, an oncologist,

01:17:20

I believe, or a hematologist, one or the other, because the patient was refusing the coronavirus vaccine.

01:17:31

So if you could pick up there. Yeah, so what I was saying is that, you know, as a matter of conscience then, believers are understanding the trajectory here, and they're not comfortable with the trajectory.

01:17:44

They're not comfortable with the lies and misinformation, and they understand that they are being lied to.

01:17:51

When the U .S. government keeps telling us things like, you know, to follow up from your comment right before the break, vaccines are safe, well, everybody knows that that's a lie.

01:18:03

That's not true. They may be safe for you, but you can't categorically say these vaccines are safe.

01:18:14

People have actually died from the vaccine. Well, right, and that's what you have a due diligence.

01:18:20

I would encourage everyone to go to, you know, that website that you mentioned, HeritageFamilyHealth .org,

01:18:27

or to, let's see here, LCAction .org,

01:18:35

and you can find carefully documented information. How do you spell, is that the initials

01:18:41

LC, or is it LC? Correct. For Liberty Council. Oh, okay, LC, okay.

01:18:47

So LCAction .org, but you can also go to Ultra Vigilance, which is a

01:18:57

European database of suspected adverse drug reaction reports, and you can pull up a

01:19:03

COVID -19. Now, in Europe, they have four different vaccines that they are using for COVID, whereas in America, of course, we only have three, but so far they are listing about 20 ,000 as of July 17, 2021.

01:19:17

20 ,000 people have died from the vaccine. How many? COVID -19, 20 ,000.

01:19:23

Wow. And they are reporting about 2 million injuries.

01:19:30

Wow. And because of that, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunization in Great Britain just said that they will not permit children ages 5 to 18 to get the vaccine unless, actually, they have severe other immunosuppression disabilities and so forth.

01:20:04

So they are preventing children from getting the vaccine until, quote, more safety data is available and has been evaluated, and, therefore, a precautionary approach is preferred.

01:20:18

And they are saying that the vaccination, the universal vaccination doesn't outweigh the risks for most young people who typically suffer only mild symptoms of the virus.

01:20:30

Well, those are things that we knew all along. And so my antenna is especially in tune, you know, because of the relationship to my doctoral thesis on sophistry to propaganda ministries.

01:20:49

And one of the defining elements of propaganda of, you know, the Corinthian -like sophistry is that it uses manipulative rhetoric that is not based in reality.

01:21:01

It's not willing to be forthright and completely truthful. So, you know, if you were forthright about telling me the potential adverse consequences of the vaccine and then gave me the freedom then to evaluate based on my health and the information related to COVID -19,

01:21:21

I might or might not decide at that point to get the vaccine. But when I can see that you are suppressing information, being untruthful with information, you're telling me lies, well, then

01:21:33

I would be rather foolish to actually believe you. And when you're using manipulative rhetoric that's not based in reality, like Biden used in his election campaign when he,

01:21:47

I forget which debate it was, but he looked right into the camera so that he was looking at the eyes of everybody in their living rooms and appealed to you to remember those empty chairs.

01:22:01

And it was because of President Trump that we have empty chairs at our dining room table.

01:22:07

And that really tugged at the heartstrings of, emotionally, of a great many people.

01:22:15

But that's manipulative rhetoric. Or the rhetoric that, well, we want children to wear masks because we want the schools to remain open.

01:22:25

They have to remain open. Well, that's a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that if you give parents the freedom to choose whether or not their kids wear a mask, you know, eight to four in school, that that's going to mean schools have to shut down.

01:22:46

You might say that that's a false cause fallacy as well because one thing is not causally related to the other.

01:22:54

You don't have to shut down the school. That is your decision that you've made, whether that's an overreaction to a student contracting

01:23:04

COVID or whatever the case is. But you also have, you know, we don't want hospitals to overflow.

01:23:15

Well, that assumes that anybody does. Nobody wants hospitals to overflow and people to die because the hospital systems are stressed.

01:23:23

But are we also taking into account the mass amounts of physicians, doctors, nurses, and so forth that are walking out because they don't want to get the vaccine or be required to get the vaccine?

01:23:37

And so that's causing stress in other departments of hospitals. And it's also failing to consider are hospitals being stretched because of bad policies or because that there is truly a pandemic?

01:23:55

And, again, then we would have to ask, well, then, should there be another state of emergency declared in the state of Pennsylvania or perhaps a more local one?

01:24:06

So all those things are playing into believers' conscience because we have a mandate to live in a way that is consistent with reality.

01:24:13

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3 .18, let no man deceive himself through the world's wisdom, through deceptive manipulation.

01:24:24

And, likewise, in Ephesians 5 .6, he says, let no one deceive you with empty words for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

01:24:36

Therefore, do not be partakers with them. Do not be partakers of those who are deceiving us with empty words.

01:24:42

What's interesting is that the word that Paul uses for empty words is the word kenos.

01:24:55

And so what he's saying is don't be deceived by that which is devoid of intellectualism.

01:25:03

That's how you would understand that. That's the word kenos, devoid of intellectualism, without basis, without truth.

01:25:11

We have an example of that in Hosea 12 .1. That says,

01:25:17

Ephraim feeds on wind and pursues the east wind continually.

01:25:25

Now that is in reference to a futile and ultimately self -destruction token gesture of solidarity that Israel was making towards the pagan rulers, pagan nations, giving them oil.

01:25:38

And the instruction is that they were not to align themselves with the foolish counsel of the godless who were simply not living in correspondence with reality.

01:25:53

And the east wind, they're pursuing the east wind, that is to say that it's a hot, dry, useless, that offered them absolutely nothing.

01:26:03

And they fed on that which was devoid of intellectualism.

01:26:10

That same phrase, that same phrase in Hosea 12 .1, in particular reference to, has a similar idea in Hosea 8 .7.

01:26:22

That says they saw the wind, they keep the, they reap the unhindered.

01:26:31

So they see the wind, they reap the nonsense thing, that nothing thing, if I can put it that way.

01:26:45

And what happened was, what we read there is the standing grain has no heads, it yields no grain, so ultimately it's useless.

01:26:54

It's talking about futile policies that have no effect, no real tangible effect.

01:27:00

And Israel was, in particular, making all these useless policy decisions in the interest of self -preservation, but ultimately they were self -destructive.

01:27:14

And Matthew Henry wrote about that. Those that stay themselves upon lies will be still coveting to increase them, as if many lies twisted together would make one truth.

01:27:31

And he goes on to say that it is ultimately a delusion and will prove to them a great desolation.

01:27:40

And interestingly, the chapter before that, Hosea writes that by living in falsehood they make kings glad.

01:27:51

Why is that? Why do you make kings glad by living in falsehood?

01:27:57

Well, chapter 12, verse 7 answers that, you know, to refer back to Ephraim feeding on the wind and pursuing the east wind, the useless east wind.

01:28:10

Because the king is a merchant who loves to oppress. That's the issue at the end of the day.

01:28:18

And that's the trajectory we're seeing. And so, as a valid matter of conscience, many

01:28:24

Christians are saying, Enough of this. We cannot pursue this direction.

01:28:30

It's unsustainable. But how to address that subject again?

01:28:36

How do I reconcile this with Romans chapter 13? It's an important issue, but I think what we fail to oftentimes do when we study the

01:28:52

Scriptures is that we understand completely its context.

01:28:59

There's always historical context, of course, but there's also a biblical context, a context for instruction in the

01:29:09

Scriptures as it relates to the overall argument of the letter. So Romans chapter 13, we have to remember, is not in isolation.

01:29:18

And we have to recognize that the Reformers, for instance, were those nonconformists because they wouldn't comply to certain government mandates.

01:29:30

Also, we're adamant at the same time that Christians should be the very best of all citizens.

01:29:38

And so we should maintain and uphold Romans chapter 13 and recognize that we have been called to obey and submit to our governing authorities.

01:29:47

And yet, at the same time, they recognize limits on those authorities too.

01:29:54

So what is the context, then, of Romans chapter 13? Because I think that's really, really helpful. In the chapter that immediately precedes it, we have a lot of useful information.

01:30:06

Romans chapter 12 begins when we're talking about protecting the mind for the

01:30:12

Christian and not following after deceptive controversies.

01:30:19

And if we want to preserve the unity of the fellowship, in chapter 1 of 1

01:30:25

Corinthians, Paul says that he admonishes us all to speak the same thing. Well, we speak the same thing by having the mind of Christ.

01:30:35

So Romans chapter 12 says, I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

01:30:45

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

01:30:55

So, um, what happens when Christians don't have a sharp mind?

01:31:04

Um, R .C. Sproul lamented, uh, in his, in his book,

01:31:10

Knowing Scripture, um, Christians are living in what may be the most anti -intellectual period of Western civilization.

01:31:18

Notice I didn't say anti -academic or anti -technological or anti -scholarly.

01:31:23

I said anti -intellectual. There's a strong current of antipathy to the function of the mind in the

01:31:31

Christian life. So, um, obviously what, what

01:31:36

Paul, uh, is talking about then, when he's speaking of the mind in Romans chapter 12, is, uh, not so much the brain.

01:31:46

He's, he's using the word noose. And so, um, we're not just talking explicitly about the organ of the brain.

01:31:56

We're not talking about our level of intelligence. Uh, there are many people who are highly intellectual and academically successful and so forth, but they don't have a renewed mind.

01:32:13

And so, really what Paul is getting at is a certain kind of disposition.

01:32:19

It is a pattern of thinking that makes judgments about life, about truth versus error, about right versus wrong, about what is myth versus what is reality.

01:32:32

And, um, and what he gets at in the first opening verses of Romans chapter 12 is that this is a matter of what you will ultimately worship.

01:32:42

In fact, in fact, we've got to pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our final break, which will be much more brief than the other breaks.

01:32:51

So don't forget where you left off there in Romans 12, okay? Yep, you got it.

01:32:56

And, uh, this is a shorter break, as I said, than the other breaks. So if you have a question you want to get in line behind the other folks already waiting, please send it in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:33:10

We have about 25 minutes left. So please get your question over to us if you intend to ask one.

01:33:17

It's ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:33:26

U .S .A. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. We'll be right back with Matt Tarr after these messages.

01:33:34

We'll be right back after these messages. Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

01:33:54

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the

01:34:00

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

01:34:07

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnson and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including

01:34:15

Foddy Balcom, Justin Peters, Darrell Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

01:34:21

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor,

01:34:27

John MacArthur. For details, visit G3conference .com. That's G3conference .com.

01:34:34

Chris Arnson and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

01:34:41

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:34:56

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:35:04

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

01:35:10

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, and the

01:35:16

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

01:35:24

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

01:35:33

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

01:35:40

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

01:35:48

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

01:35:56

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

01:36:01

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:36:08

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpets Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

01:36:14

Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them through Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpets Iron Radio.

01:36:26

Go to NASBible .com. That's NASBible .com to place your order.

01:36:39

We are excited to announce another new member of the

01:36:46

Iron Trumpets Iron Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three

01:36:52

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

01:37:01

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree, and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

01:37:08

Please contact Dr. Gadi, so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

01:37:18

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

01:37:23

That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.

01:37:32

That's L -E -E -S -drugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

01:37:45

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:37:54

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:38:02

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:38:11

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:38:25

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:38:32

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:38:39

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit

01:38:44

L -I -Y -F -C .org. That's L -I -Y -F -C .org.

01:38:56

As a mother, I was looking for a magazine that would include devotionals that I could quickly do before school and had theology and doctrine made very simple for children to understand that they could read themselves or I could walk them through.

01:39:13

There's tiered content so that you can go to the older group and learn more or go to a younger section and it's even more simple.

01:39:21

Join us on our journey in developing our magazine entitled Ignited by the

01:39:26

Word which engages and ignites the hearts of our children and young people in their walk with God.

01:39:34

Order Ignited by the Word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org.

01:39:40

Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free and put good literature in your children's hands.

01:39:52

Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, our guest today has been for the entirety of the program and will continue for the next 15 minutes or so to be

01:40:03

Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania.

01:40:09

And right before the break, you were entering into Romans chapter 12. You were discussing the renewing of the mind and how the society has become anti -intellectual and that even has spilled over into the professing

01:40:27

Church of Christ. So if you could pick up where you left off, Matt. Yeah, so we were talking about Romans chapter 12, living our lives for the glory of God as a reasonable service of worship.

01:40:38

And Paul writes then in Romans chapter 12 and in verse 2, do not be conformed to this world.

01:40:46

Well, what he's saying there is really a pattern of living that is governed by a pattern of thinking.

01:40:57

And so when we're talking about the mind, I had mentioned that we're not talking about the physical brain here, but we're talking about the disposition of the mind, what a man worships.

01:41:10

And so for a good illustration of that, obviously, if we worship our lives, then we might be prone to be afraid, disproportionately afraid of anything that threatens our lives.

01:41:25

We'll fail to be trusting of our Savior, the sovereignty of God, and maybe fear -driven decisions will control us.

01:41:36

And obviously, as believers, we are not to respond in fear, but in trust for our

01:41:43

Lord Jesus Christ. So the way we think and what we worship will govern our desires.

01:41:50

It will govern our affections. It'll govern even how we interpret reality.

01:41:56

And so we are to live in a way that is consistent with reality, that is consistent with truth, and that is consistent with proving the will of God, that which is good and acceptable and perfect,

01:42:09

Paul writes. And then he says in verse 9, let love be without hypocrisy.

01:42:15

So that is going to be a governing principle that we can't let go of when we evaluate whether or not we're properly understanding this fear of authority of our civic authorities.

01:42:28

In Romans chapter 13, we want to understand whether or not we're interpreting

01:42:34

Romans chapter 13 correctly. We have to recognize that it can't be contradictory to a spirit of love, love that is without hypocrisy, love that is truly loving to our neighbor.

01:42:46

And what's interesting about that word hypocrisy, of course, is that that is the Greek word hypocrates, from which we eventually will get the idea of the mask from, the actor, the actor wearing a mask.

01:43:00

He is acting as though he's someone or something that he's not. And so for the

01:43:06

Christian to act in a way that is inconsistent with who they are, that's hypocritical.

01:43:13

And our love, our obedience to God cannot be inconsistent even then when we follow into Romans chapter 13, when we look at our submission to governing authorities.

01:43:26

And that chapter follows then with respect to our obedience.

01:43:32

Verse 21 of Romans chapter 12, do not be overcome by evil, but be overcome over evil with good, because God has ordained the government to bear a sword.

01:43:43

No government exists that hasn't been established by God, of course, he writes. And therefore, whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God.

01:43:52

So that is a very serious issue. But that also recognizes that God has called the government to fulfill a particular role.

01:44:02

And we have to recognize then the limitations of that role. And so if the government goes beyond the

01:44:09

God -ordained role that it has called us, that the government is now requiring of us, we're not disobeying

01:44:17

God, because we're disobeying the governing authority, because God has never given the government that authority to begin with.

01:44:26

It's operating outside that sphere of authority. So by will of illustration, of course, you go to Hebrews chapter 13, verse 17, which

01:44:33

I think is often, interestingly enough, left out of the discussion. Well, Romans chapter 13, we have to universally obey our governing authorities as long as they're not explicitly commanding us to sin.

01:44:44

Well, I'll argue that in these instances, when the government imposes itself in governing the church or governing our conscience, it is actually commanding us to sin, because we recognize that there are sins of omission as well as there being sins of commission.

01:45:04

But anyway, you jump over to Hebrews chapter 13, verse 17. We inherently understand when the author of Hebrews tells us to submit to our leaders and obey them because they have been appointed by God as well.

01:45:25

Of course, we're talking about leaders in the church. At the same time, we understand limitations in the sphere of authority that God has given to shepherds to lead

01:45:37

His church. That limitation is ecclesiastical. It deals with spiritual matters.

01:45:45

It deals with the congregation. But as a pastor, I would have no

01:45:51

God -ordained authority to tell somebody, for instance, who to marry.

01:45:57

I can't do that. I can tell them principles, obviously, and where Scripture tells, for instance, do not be unequally yoked.

01:46:08

But I can't tell Sam that he is to marry

01:46:14

Sally. That's outside my sphere of authority. But obviously within your sphere of authority would be to forbid a member from marrying someone when it would be sinful.

01:46:28

Absolutely. That's what I mean when I say if the

01:46:33

Scriptures do tell us, they give us principles, you are not to marry an unbeliever.

01:46:39

That's very universal. Or become engaged to somebody who is still married and intending to divorce her husband or his wife.

01:46:51

Right, which actually brings up a very important point. So when we interpret Scripture, we have to understand that we cannot contradict other passages of Scripture.

01:47:02

So if we interpret Romans 13 in a way that is inconsistent with other passages of Scripture, then we know that we've interpreted

01:47:09

Romans 13 wrong. So obviously if Romans 13 is just a universal, you know, obey your governing authorities, and that does not apply to conscience, we must submit our conscience to governing authorities, then you're applying that inconsistently.

01:47:27

Acts 5 is a good example. When Peter is told by his authorities to stop preaching, and he says, we must obey

01:47:38

God rather than men. He teed up. He squared up the issue there. He called their bluff.

01:47:44

What he was saying was, those Scriptures haven't told me I have to preach in this city at this time.

01:47:52

I understand that you have no sphere of authority over my conscience. And it is because Christ is

01:47:58

Lord of my conscience that I must preach here. And this is no jurisdiction that you have.

01:48:05

And so this is now a matter of obeying God. And so when we talk about the mind and the object of our worship, how we respond to our conscience is going to be a key indicator of that.

01:48:20

So it's interesting, though, that Os Guinness, I think he writes for Ligonier.

01:48:27

I could be mistaken by that. He has been a guest on the program. Okay, yeah.

01:48:33

But he wrote that failing to think Christianly, evangelicals have been forced into the role of cultural imitators and adapters.

01:48:43

And so why is that? Well, when we disallow our minds to conform to truth and reality and our conscience, then something else is going to control the way we interpret all of life.

01:49:06

It's going to affect our worldview. And that's why, even while the reformers adamantly maintain that we honor our civic authorities,

01:49:18

I think I mentioned before Pierre Viret, the

01:49:24

Swiss reformer, who contributed a lot of time to this issue, was adamant that Christians should be the very best of all citizens.

01:49:34

And he wrote that they have, that is, our governing authorities, they have no servants who are less likely to betray them than these.

01:49:44

For believers would much prefer to die rather than to have even the thought of such a cowardly act as to betray their rulers because they fear

01:49:53

God. And yet, at the same time, that wasn't seen as inconsistent with disobeying governing authorities when they interfered with the conscience.

01:50:09

So, John Knox, for instance, called Bloody Queen Mary a slave of Satan, which is a rather bold statement.

01:50:18

And Brad Clausen, Dr. Brad Clausen, recently did a very helpful study on actually

01:50:28

Romans chapter 12, verse 1 and 2. And one of the consequences that he outlines for giving up a biblical worldview, giving up our ability to think properly, this disposition that can discern truth from error, is cowardice.

01:50:51

It is a failure, he says, to think according to God's thoughts, and that creates a deficiency of courage that is needed to defend and promote truth in the face of opposition.

01:51:04

And that is largely, he argues, where this idea of this new

01:51:11

Christian calling to be nice and non -offensive, even in the face of blatant outright error, blatant outright immorality, because the motto has become whatever you say, don't offend.

01:51:28

And so, if we have a mind, though, that is truly controlled by a proper

01:51:37

Christian worldview, we will boldly defend the truth. And John Knox also said, who is a contemporary of Verre, men might disobey the persons, that is the princes, and not offend against God's ordinance, and that subjects were not bound to obey their princes if they commanded unlawful things, and they might resist them lawfully without fear.

01:52:01

Well, what occasions did they define as being outside their sphere of authority so that we might lawfully, according to the law of God, disobey them?

01:52:13

Well, one of those was the sphere of conscience. So, for instance,

01:52:22

Kuyper, Kuyper from the 19th century had mentioned that the conscience, he argued that the conscience was sovereign in its own sphere of authority.

01:52:31

He said, the conscience marks a boundary. The state may never cross. The limits to state power reside in the will of God.

01:52:39

Government has as much power as God has assigned to it.

01:52:48

No more, no less. And he goes on that these excellent traits derive from the fact that conscience is the immediate contact in a person's soul of God's holy presence from moment to moment.

01:53:04

Withdrawn into the citadel of his conscience, a person knows that God's omnipotence stands guard for him at the gate.

01:53:10

In his conscience, he is therefore unassailable. If government, nevertheless, dares to push through its abuse of force, the end will be the martyr's death.

01:53:22

And likewise, Althusias, he developed a lot of the reformers' teachings on the conscience and proper disobedience to our governing authorities because they are instructing us to violate our conscience.

01:53:41

And he said that families, churches, and state alike must protect the rights and liberties of the people and that violations of these rights and liberties or of the divine and natural laws that inform and empower them are instances of tyranny that must trigger organized constitutional resistance.

01:54:00

And John Calvin, as well. John Calvin, like Pierre Verret, insisted that we have a godly duty to obey even tyrannical officials but, with a caveat, up to the limits of the

01:54:19

Christian conscience. And he argued that we have to recognize that sometimes obeying our governing authorities within the sphere that God has given them authority is a test of our faith.

01:54:32

And that is a matter of obedience to God. And yet, at the same time, he was careful to qualify that by saying that if we honor earthly authorities, they cannot be at the expense of honoring

01:54:47

God. And so he said that when earthly authorities command us to disobey

01:54:54

God, to discard scriptures, or, importantly, to violate the conscience, then citizens and subjects not only might obey, but must obey.

01:55:05

We have to recognize that the government is exercising authority where it doesn't belong.

01:55:14

And we have a duty to instruct the magistrate that they are outside their

01:55:20

God -given sphere of authority. And he says that dictatorships and unjust authorities are, in fact, not governments ordained by God, and those who practice blasphemous tyranny are no longer

01:55:36

God's ministers of law. So, at the same time that we affirm, as Pierre Verret did, that we should be the best of all citizens, and as Calvin did, that we should even be submitting to tyrannical governments insofar that they are instructing us within their

01:55:59

God -given sphere of authority. That is not excuse for obeying governments when it infringes itself in an area that God has not given it the right to rule, such as the church, such as the conscience, such as the family.

01:56:16

And it's very obvious in Ephesians chapter 6, verses 1 and 2, that God has given parents the authority to raise up their children in the fear and discipline of the

01:56:29

Lord. And importantly, that particular word that Paul uses for discipline there is in the context of living rightly and appropriately, given reality, given knowledge, in this present life.

01:56:45

So, it is akin to saying we must walk circumspectly. And when our

01:56:50

Lord said to render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is

01:56:55

God's, He is making a dual affirmation. You must...

01:57:01

Of course, Caesar was a tyrannical magistrate. We recognize that.

01:57:07

And so within the sphere of authority that God has called Caesar to function, even as a tyrannical governor, as a punishment to Israel, they had a duty to obey

01:57:23

Him. And in that context, of course, it related to taxes. You have a civic duty.

01:57:29

They have the God -ordained right to tax in order that they can fulfill the role that God has called them to fulfill.

01:57:36

But, Jesus says, render to God what is God's. And God is the owner of the conscience.

01:57:45

And we cannot give to Caesar what belongs to God.

01:57:51

In fact, we're out of time now, Pastor Matt. And that was definitely a phenomenal presentation that you gave.

01:58:02

And so much so, you were in such a role, we didn't have time today to take any listener questions.

01:58:07

And I'm asking our listeners who submitted questions to resubmit them at a future date when we are covering a similar subject.

01:58:16

I want to make sure that our listeners have the website of High Point Baptist Church. It is highpointbaptist .com,

01:58:25

highpointbaptist .com. And don't forget to tune in tomorrow when we have Dr.

01:58:30

Tony Costa, the Professor of Apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, return to the program.

01:58:38

And he is going to be discussing his new book, Early Christian Creeds and Hymns.

01:58:44

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.