June 15, 2017 Show with Robert Unger, Esq. & Thomas R. Eddlem on “William Norman Grigg (2/4/63 – 4/12/17) Remembered by Friends”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of June 2017.

And today we are going to be paying tribute to a dear friend of mine, now in glory with Christ for eternity, William Norman Grigg, who was a senior editor at the New American Magazine. He was a political pundit, an unwavering Christian libertarian, and author, and just a wonderful, dear, and humble man, who, unlike many people who have encyclopedic minds and are absolutely brilliant on the genius level, he was also an incredibly humble man.

And we are going to be discussing William with a couple of his friends. We have, first of all, Robert Unger, attorney at law, who's a political pundit and activist, a former radio co-host of the Unger and Capilla Show on Salem Media, a contributing journalist to various political periodicals and blogs, a guest on various radio and television broadcasts, and an information gatherer and disseminator.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend, Robert Unger.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

And I'm not sure if William Jasper has joined us yet. Are you there, William? I guess William Jasper has not yet joined us, and I don't know what the circumstances are involving that. He hopefully will be joining us at some point, but right now we will be more than happy to discuss William Norman Grigg with a mutual friend, dear friend of both William's and mine, Robert Unger, attorney at law.

And, Robert, you have been a faithful friend of mine since the early 1990s. You are an Orthodox Jew, and one of the things that I have always been impressed by in regard to your friendship is that even though I have made it very clear, and other Christians that you know have made it very clear, that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, you have never responded with anger, you have never responded with a political correct kind of attitude, where how dare you say something like that.

And you have always been very patient and accepting of the friendship of those who are very vividly clear with you about the gospel. Can you explain to our listeners why that is, why that you do not find that kind of a belief or that kind of an approach to you by your friends as something revolting and as something out of bounds?

Behind your back, and I did not see a sword.

But in the years past, you have often told me that you know that is what I believe, and if I believe that is true, that if I was truly a loving friend, I would have to inform you of that.

Well, my philosophy is people are... Right, and in the past you have also been very open.

In regard to your patriotism, you have often been very open about your gratefulness for the Christian involvement in the founding of this nation.

Negating...

That is right, exactly right. Well, the main reason, as you know, that we are having you on the program today is to discuss a mutual friend of ours, William Norman Grigg. William Norman Grigg, who was actually a Mormon who converted to biblical Christianity, and I don't know if William's parents are still with us.

The last time that I interviewed him, from our station in New York, WNYG, where we used to have our broadcast, his parents were still alive, but most of his family was still Mormon, and he had no bitterness or hatred against Mormons.

In fact, it was his great love for them that he wanted to be very open and honest about his conversion with them. In fact, that's something that I wanted to bring up just briefly, that I found it quite remarkable that my interview with William back in the early 2000s on his conversion from Mormonism to Christianity, where he actually was moved to tears during our interview, you were so moved by that interview that you wanted me to post it on Facebook and spread it widely, and you yourself wanted to spread it widely.

Can you just comment on that briefly?

I think even with integrity, which I'm a liberal for you.

Right. Well, how did you first come into contact with William Norman Grigg? And by the way, I was racking my brain trying to remember how I initially came in contact with you and how our friendship developed in 1990, and I finally remembered what it was.

I was sitting at my desk when I was working for Salem Media, WMCA, 570 AM in New York, and I had an office in the church where I was a member, the church building where I was a member, and all of a sudden this fax came through, and you had been faxing radio stations subjects that would warrant an interview on the radio, and that's how we developed our friendship.

I don't know if you remember that, but that's how it came.

Yeah, I remember that I had been written at the time, so that was my gimmick.

Yes, and then you also introduced me to our mutual friend Robert Posh, a Roman Catholic attorney. He used to have barbecues and parties over his house where he would invite people over his home where they could eat, drink, and argue over religion and politics.

It was just always a fun time. So how did you first come in contact with our mutual friend William Norman Grigg?

On the face of the earth. Intellectually, he might be on the level of the Kardashians, possibly.

In fact, you know as well as I do that William had a nickname due to his grammatical acumen, Thesaurus Rex.

That's right. He literally wrote your vocabulary commensurately.

Yeah, he was so awe-inspiring. When I would interview him, the vocabulary that just flowed so freely from his gentle voice, even though he was known as a warrior with his pen, and a warrior for liberty and freedom and justice and so on, he at the same time was a gentle and humble man.

Yeah, and he also ended up taking an axe and chopping your head off. And he actually wrote a few and talked about some of this.

Yeah, and for those of our listeners, I actually took it for granted that everybody listening knows who we are speaking of, when in reality probably a tiny minority of the listeners to my program realize who I'm speaking of.

William Norman Grigg was a dear friend of both my guest and mine who was the former senior editor of the New American magazine. And he went home to the Lord on April 12, 2017, not that long ago. That was a shock to many of us.

Many of us didn't even realize that he was sick. And I don't believe he was ill very long. He was struggling with some kind of a virus or something and he had succumbed to a heart attack, I believe, is what the autopsy was or what the story was in regard to that.

And most of us were absolutely shocked because he was such a young man. He was born on February 4, 1963, a year younger than me, so he would have been 54 years of age.

Well, you talk about many people knowing who he was. And I said, yeah, he's on the treadmill right now. But, I mean, this is the level.

Right. I mean, grammar school students used to know fairly quickly who he was in some regard.

Most people could not read, William. I remember one time and he said to me, he said, no, actually. And I said, that's right.

In fact, many of our listeners will be unaware of the fact that my guest Robert Unger was a spokesperson, a national spokesperson at one time for Hooked on Phonics. And even his son, who's now an adult, it was Adam, right, of the two boys.

It was Adam that did the TV commercials. Hooked on Phonics worked for me, which was seen on the Rush Limbaugh television program quite regularly. And Will had a blog called Pro Libertate, and believe it or not, a lot of folks who maybe are familiar with his political writings may not even know that he was, I believe, the president, if not the president, one of the members of the Jerry Seinfeld Society.

He was a big fan of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld.

That's funny. Yeah, he...

That's right. For those of you who couldn't figure out from the Latin phrase Pro Libertate what that means, if you took enough time, you'd probably figure it out. But it's Pro Liberty or Pro Freedom in Latin.

And that was the hallmark of Will's writing and the emphasis of his career and his livelihood and his life, second to his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ, were the freedoms that he cherished, that he wanted Americans to be able to experience and enjoy and enjoy for many decades, if not centuries to come, if the Lord should tarry, but he was seeing them being stripped away from us and vanishing, and not only from what is known as the left wing of the aisle of the Democrats and the Democratic Party, but also even from Republicans.

But perhaps you could help our listeners understand a bit of the political ideology of William Norman Grigg. He was a Christian libertarian, and when many people hear the term libertarian, they automatically jump to a conclusion.

And, of course, the libertarian party isn't any help because of the really serious departure, I think, that the leaders in that party are guilty of, that departure of what libertarian actually means. But people will jump to the wrong conclusion, that it is a liberal ideology, in that it is pro-abortion, a pro-homosexuality, and pro-a lot of things that not only Christians, but those with biblical morality, Judeo-Christian morality, would find abhorrent.

But that is not the case.

Those people are advocates of racism.

Yes. And what the case is, though, is that some people might draw the wrong conclusion that even a Christian libertarian, or even such as you, an Orthodox Jewish libertarian, they may draw the wrong conclusion that you are in favor of things just because you believe that American citizens should have the freedoms to participate and involve themselves in things, and believe things, and proclaim and teach things that you find very offensive personally.

Isn't that where a lot of the confusion is?

I mean, I think...

Yes, and... Go ahead, I'm sorry.

Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say that aside that...

Right, and unlike many libertarians, especially in the libertarian party, who believe as a part of those liberties a woman should be allowed to murder her unborn child, there are many, and including our dear friend William Norman Grigg, and including you, who would say that child has liberties and freedoms because that child is a human being, no matter what the mother, the father, or the doctor may say, that unborn child is a human deserving of every freedom and right that those adults breathing free air can enjoy.

Yeah, well, those... Right.

And the interesting thing is even the liberal mainstream media will refer to an unborn child that is intended by the mother to eventually be delivered and be born, they will refer to it as a baby or as a child.

They even... And that not very long ago that husband who murdered his wife, who was pregnant, they even, the secular news media, even referred to the baby that was murdered. As a result, they referred to the baby as Connor, they even used the unborn baby's name.

But if...

Right. Yeah, and we're going to be going to a... Excuse me? And we're going to be going to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question about William Norman Grigg or about Christian libertarianism, which was the theme of his life, if you would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA. And if you prefer to remain anonymous, because your question involves a personal and private matter, you may feel free to do so.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with our first guest, Robert Unger, attorney at law, a mutual friend of the late William Norman Grigg. Do not go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, we are having William Norman Grigg, the late William Norman Grigg, remembered by friends, and the friends remembering him may only be myself and Robert Unger today.

We were supposed to have William Jasper as well, who is the current senior editor of the New American Magazine, but for some reason, he has not yet called into the broadcast, so perhaps he is delayed and perhaps he will not even be able to participate today.

We don't know that yet. But we do have Robert Unger, attorney at law, political pundit, and activist, former radio host, along with John Kapilas of the Unger and Kapilas Show on Salem Media, contributing journalists to various periodicals and blogs, and a guest on various radio and television broadcasts, and an information gatherer and disseminator.

And as I was saying, we are discussing the late William Norman Grigg, a mutual friend of ours who went home to be with the Lord after an unexpected death, a heart attack, on April 12th of this year, much to the shock of most who knew him.

And he is certainly someone who is sorely missed, a Christian libertarian, a brilliant man with the nickname Thesaurus Rex, because he had an encyclopedic mind and a vocabulary that probably could not be contained in all the computers in a large warehouse, but quite a remarkable and humble individual.

Our email address, if anybody has any questions, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. We do have a listener from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. She says, Can you further define the differences between Christian libertarianism as opposed to the secular or atheistic interpretation of libertarianism?

That's one of two questions she has. Do you have anything to add to what you view as orthodox libertarianism, and I mean orthodox in the sense of being pure and undefiled, straight, correct, however you want to interpret orthodox, as opposed to what the libertarian party is known for and their last candidates for president and vice president who seem to even overstep the bounds of what secular libertarianism went with their view of a large government in certain areas.

I think they were even in favor of gun control to a really...

Right.

In regard to the political side of that.

Exactly. Obviously.

Yeah, and in fact you would...

Their mommy and their daddy.

Right. And because of the fact that an atheistic libertarian might be, although not every atheist is a cookie cutter of the other atheist, an atheist libertarian might be more prone to be so zealously in favor of things like homosexual rights that they will be pushing for the legalization of things that would actually be stripping Christians and others who oppose that activity of their rights.

You know, that sometimes they... Like for instance, if you believe in homosexual marriage or same-sex marriage, there are those, even Christian libertarians, who say that the government doesn't even belong in our marriage at all to begin with, but the subsequent things that may occur from legalizing same-sex marriage is that those who are opposed to that may lose their rights if they refuse services and employment and other things to those people because of their activities.

Am I right on that?

Yeah, well...

In fact, you wrote a book with your former law partner, America Doesn't Owe You a Living.

Right, exactly. A right is something... Negative rights. A right is something that...

I thought you were Jewish. Capisce, that's Italian, isn't it?

I use my Italian when I'm getting ready to...

The views and opinions of the guests at Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio do not necessarily reflect those of the host.

He should.

In fact, if anybody just dawned on me, if anybody wants to get an mp3 of an interview that I did with Robert Unger and his friend Robert Muchnick that we conducted, I don't know, I think maybe in 2010 or something like that.

Somewhere in 2010 or prior. You can email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com because it was a very fascinating interview where these two Orthodox Jews were warning Christians about naively financially supporting and supporting in other ways the Israeli government.

Not that you are not Zionists, but you are very opposed to the Israeli government.

Well, I'm not opposed to the office.

No, that's what I meant. I meant the current, and in fact, even the government back in the year when we were discussing it.

I'm also, unfortunately, I'm opposed to them.

And our listener in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, Jenny, also asks, who were William Norman Griggs' favorite mentors or persons whom he admired? How much did it affect his worldview? Well, I know that the two would be Chris Harnson and Robert Unger.

I would never say that was his mentor. That was a joke. But he admired us. He was our friend. But I don't know that much about William as far as those who actually led him into the beliefs that he eventually embraced and championed.

Do you? Okay, Robert. Well, I appreciate the time that you spent with us for the last 46 minutes. And hopefully we'll have you back on the program at some point in the near future. Alrighty. Well, that's live radio for you folks.

But I don't know, Jenny, that much about Will's how he came to embrace the Christian libertarian position that he eventually wound up not only embracing but championing. I happen to know that a hero of his was William Wallace, the true figure from history that the movie Braveheart was based on.

But the movie went way beyond the truths of history. Much of it was fiction. But the actual character from history, William Wallace, who died defending the freedom of the Scots who were being enslaved by the British throne.

And William Wallace lived and died for Scottish freedom, which that much is revealed in the movie for certain Braveheart. And so that would be a connection, obviously. But I don't know if William Wallace became a hero of William Griggs after he already had been a libertarian or if that was before.

And so I can't say much more than that. If somebody else can email me with that information that may know more of that, that would be helpful. And we have Joe in Slovenia who says, Dear Brother Chris, would it be fair and accurate to say that morally consistent libertarianism, the biblical kind that was promoted by Brother Griggs, is the most naturally Christian political and social philosophy?

Is Judeo-Christian libertarianism the most biblically consistent sociopolitical philosophy? Thank you for a great discussion. Well, that depends upon who you ask, Joe. Because I know Christians who I agree with that I'm nearly in lockstep with on theological issues and doctrinal issues who are very opposed to libertarianism.

I'm not 100 sure if that's because they thoroughly understand what it is or if they are looking at caricatures or if they are looking at the libertarian party as a living example of what the fruit of that ideology is.

I know that, for instance, Al Mohler is very opposed to libertarianism or at least, I guess that would be an accurate description of his views, that he's very opposed to it. I'm not saying he would be totally opposed to it.

And there are others whom I know that believe that libertarianism is only a good idea in theory in a perfect society but it could never appropriately carry through a Christian identity in this age that we live in that is far from perfect.

It never was perfect, this world. But they will decry that libertarianism is not the best form of government that we should have. But in fact, there are libertarians that I know, there are Christian libertarians who would say the opposite for the same reason.

They would say that because power corrupts or power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, they would be libertarian because of that reason because whenever you have a group of people who have authority over everyone else because of the reality of original sin and as a Calvinist would put it, total depravity, it's very dangerous to have human beings have too much authority over the citizens they govern.

And even if those politicians and elected officials are professing to be Christian, it can be a dangerous thing for too much power to be wielded by them. So you're not going to get the same answer on that.

I am still, if you're looking for my personal view, I am still doing some searching and study about this issue myself. I tend to lean toward a Christian libertarian philosophy but I'm not fully convinced of it.

And I'm also fully aware that it is not a monolithic group of people. I know Christian libertarians who are far more pacifistic, are far more related to pacifists than I would ever be. In fact, I don't even understand why some of the Christian libertarians are very opposed to strong borders protecting the United States.

I don't even understand that because the borders are not there to prohibit the freedoms of citizens of the United States to come and go. They're there to prohibit criminals and people who intend to do us harm from coming in here.

So I'm not quite sure why the Christian libertarian would view strong borders, strongly guarded borders as a negative thing. Because a libertarian, especially if they are using that term in regard to American government, they are primarily championing or following that philosophy because they want to protect the freedoms and liberties and rights of American citizens.

So, again, I'm not really sure what the quabble is about borders. And you have some Christian libertarians that are even more pacifistic or even more easily identified as pacifists than I would be in opposition to that.

But I really appreciate you writing in, Joe, in Slovenia. And we're going to go to a station break. And when we come back, if we are not yet joined by William Jasper, I am going to air a rerun in tribute of William Norman Grigg.

So don't go away. We will be right back after these messages, God willing. And I appreciate all of your prayers and your support for Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

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Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

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