June 15, 2017 Show with Robert Unger, Esq. & Thomas R. Eddlem on “William Norman Grigg (2/4/63 – 4/12/17) Remembered by Friends”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth, listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of June 2017.

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And today we are going to be paying tribute to a dear friend of mine, now in glory with Christ for eternity,

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William Norman Grigg, who was a senior editor at the New American Magazine.

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He was a political pundit, an unwavering Christian libertarian, and author, and just a wonderful, dear, and humble man who, unlike many people who have encyclopedic minds and are absolutely brilliant on the genius level, he was also an incredibly humble man.

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And we are going to be discussing William with a couple of his friends.

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We have, first of all, Robert Unger, attorney at law, who's a political pundit and activist, a former radio co -host of the

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Unger and Capilla Show on Salem Media, a contributing journalist to various political periodicals and blogs, a guest on various radio and television broadcasts, and an information gatherer and disseminator.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend,

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Robert Unger. Thank you. Glad to be here. And I'm not sure if William Jasper has joined us yet.

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Are you there, William? I guess William Jasper has not yet joined us, and I don't know what the circumstances are involving that.

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He hopefully will be joining us at some point, but right now we will be more than happy to discuss

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William Norman Grigg with a mutual friend, dear friend of both William's and mine,

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Robert Unger, attorney at law. And, Robert, you have been a faithful friend of mine since the early 1990s.

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You are an Orthodox Jew, and one of the things that I have always been impressed by in regard to your friendship is that even though I have made it very clear, and other

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Christians that you know have made it very clear, that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, you have never responded with anger, you have never responded with a political correct kind of attitude where, how dare you say something like that.

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And you have always been very patient and accepting of the friendship of those who are very vividly clear with you about the gospel.

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Can you explain to our listeners why that is, why that you do not find that kind of a belief or that kind of an approach to you by your friends as something revolting and as something out of bounds?

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Well, because I looked behind your back and I didn't see a sword. But in the years past, you've often told me that you know that's what

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I believe, and if I believe that is true, that if I was truly a loving friend,

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I would have to inform you of that. My philosophy with people who, without using the sword of Allah to try to convert people, if people are well -intentioned,

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I never get angry because I look at a person's intention. If their intention is malicious, then that's a different story, but I can never get angry.

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I wouldn't get angry at any person of any religion who is simply trying to persuade me of the righteousness of his cause, as long as he was doing it peacefully.

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It's force that I object to, and of course, when it comes to religion, I don't know how people can think you can force somebody to be a believer, since if they're being forced, obviously you're negating their free will, and therefore they can't really be a believer anyway, unless they're a believer because they think they're going to get their head chopped off.

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Right. So they believe in self -preservation, but certainly not God. And in the past, you've also been very open, in regard to your patriotism, you've often been very open about your gratefulness for the

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Christian involvement in the founding of this nation. Well, sure, because obviously the morals of Christianity and many of the principles come from Judaism, after all, in the first place.

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I mean, it was Judaism that declared certain heinous acts to be immoral in the first place.

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And so if you're an anti -Semite, you really can't be a

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Christian because you'd be negating the morality of your foundation. That's right, exactly right.

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Well, the main reason, as you know, that we are having you on the program today is to discuss a mutual friend of ours,

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William Norman Grigg. William Norman Grigg, who was actually a Mormon who converted to biblical

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Christianity. And I don't know if William's parents are still with us.

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The last time that I interviewed him from our station in New York, WNYG, where we used to have our broadcast, his parents were still alive, but most of his family was still

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Mormon and he had no bitterness or hatred against Mormons. In fact, it was his great love for them that he wanted to be very open and honest about his conversion with them.

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And in fact, that's something that I wanted to bring up just briefly that I found it quite remarkable that my interview with William back in the early 2000s on his conversion from Mormonism to Christianity, where he actually was moved to tears during our interview.

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You were so moved by that interview that you wanted me to post it on Facebook and spread it widely, and you yourself wanted to spread it widely.

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Can you just comment on that briefly? Well, I think that if you're a person of principle, you can admire people who have principles, even if you disagree.

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I mean, I could be a political conservative or a political libertarian, but if I could find a liberal or a leftist with integrity, which unfortunately is usually an oxymoron, but if I could find someone like that, and occasionally there are,

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I could have a very, very interesting intellectual conversation with that person because they had true integrity that was consistent, as opposed to the typical liberal who, you know, it's interesting.

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I know one family over here where I live who, you know, hates Donald Trump.

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Now, I'm not a great fan of Donald Trump's either, but they hate him because they claim he's anti -immigrant.

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And yet, when my wife asked them why they were moving out of the neighborhood after living here so many years, they said because the

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Chinese are moving in. And I'm a liberal for you.

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Right. Well, how did you first come into contact with William Norman Grigg?

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And by the way, I was racking my brain trying to remember how I initially came in contact with you and how our friendship developed in 1990.

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And I finally remembered what it was. I was sitting at my desk when

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I was working for Salem Media, WMCA, 570 AM in New York, and I had an office in the church where I was a member, the church building where I was a member, and all of a sudden this fax came through.

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And you had been faxing radio stations subjects that would warrant an interview on the radio, and that's how we developed our friendship.

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I don't know if you remember that, but that's how it came. Yeah, I remember that I had been written up in something called the

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Yearbooks of Experts and Authorities, and I was faxing this ad where it said,

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I'm the most politically incorrect man in America. And that was my gimmick.

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Yes, and then you also introduced me to our mutual friend Robert Posch, a

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Roman Catholic attorney. He used to have barbecues and parties over his house where he would invite people over his home where they could eat, drink, and argue over religion and politics.

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It was just always a fun time. And so how did you first come in contact with our mutual friend

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William Norman Grigg? Well, it was being a member of the

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John Birch Society where he was a senior editor of the New American magazine, and he would speak at various events on various political and geopolitical issues.

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And also, he was a terrific writer, had a fantastic vocabulary.

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In fact, you know, if you had a high school child and you wanted to expand the kids' vocabularies so that they would score very high on the

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SATs, all you would have to do is have the kid read Grigg's articles every week.

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And the kid would ace the SATs just on the expansion of his ability to read, write, and have a strong vocabulary.

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So I would meet him at various events and get into conversations with him, and I found him to be very rare because, you know, in the times we live in today, we're living with some of the dumbest people who have ever walked on the face of the earth.

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And so it's like, you know, meeting him is like being in the Mojave Desert, and you're dying of thirst, and all of a sudden you see this oasis with a whole lake full of water.

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And you just try to crawl through the desert sand and through the scorpions and all the cactuses just to get to the water.

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And that's what it is to talk to a guy like Grigg, even if you debate him on certain nuances of various issues.

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It's just an intellectually stimulating time to be with somebody like that.

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And it's absolutely so rare because most times when you talk to people, they might be on the level of the

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Kardashians, possibly. In fact, you know as well as I do that William had a nickname due to his grammatical acumen,

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Thesaurus Rex. That's right. He literally was a thesaurus.

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I mean, I always tell people that when they read brilliant writers, like a

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William Grigg, they should always have a dictionary handy and then learn the words that you have never heard before.

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And then incorporate it into your next conversation. And as you do that, you'll expand your vocabulary commensurately.

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And, you know, people, at least intelligent people, a few that are left, do judge other people by the manner in which they speak and the word usage that they incorporate in their presentation or their conversation.

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And it makes a great impression. So it's very useful, not only from a political or ideological standpoint, it's useful from a practical standpoint.

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Yeah, he was so awe -inspiring. When I would interview him, the vocabulary that just flowed so freely from his gentle voice, even though he was known as a warrior with his pen and a warrior for liberty and freedom and justice and so on.

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He, at the same time, was a gentle and humble man. Yeah, and he also had a great wit.

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And, you know, I'm the opposite, you know, I'm about as subtle as taking an axe and chopping your head off.

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He was a bit more nuanced than I am. But we would have wonderful repartees with each other, going back and forth discussing issues and interspersing facetious or sarcastic or cynical jokes in between.

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And, you know, we would have really animated and interesting conversations.

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And he actually wrote a few articles about me, quoting me and talking about some of the things that I talked about.

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So, you know, I definitely had an effect on him as he had an effect on me. Yeah. And for those of our listeners, and I actually took it for granted that everybody listening knows who we are speaking of, when in reality, probably a tiny minority of listeners to my program realize who

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I'm speaking of. William Norman Grigg was a dear friend of both my guest and mine, who was the former senior editor of the

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New American magazine. And he went home to the Lord on April 12, 2017, not that long ago.

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That was a shock to many of us. Many of us didn't even realize that he was sick. And I don't believe he was ill very long.

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He was struggling with some kind of a virus or something. And he had succumbed to a heart attack,

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I believe is what the autopsy was or what the story was in regard to that.

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And most of us were absolutely shocked because he was such a young man. He was born on February 4, 1963, a year younger than me.

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So he would have been 54 years of age. You talk about not that many people knowing who he is or who he was.

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But the fact of the matter is I've been doing a little thought experiment over here.

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And I go over to people, older teenagers and also adults as well.

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And I asked them who Patrick Henry is. Well, a guy today said, is he a member of the gym?

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I said, yeah, he's on the treadmill right now. He left his wig at home.

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But I mean, this is this is the level of the imbeciles that live in this country.

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So how could they know who William Grigg is if they don't know who Patrick Henry was?

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I mean, the guy only gave the most famous speech, certainly of the American Revolution, but one of the most famous speeches in history.

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Right. I mean, grammar school students used to know fairly quickly, you know, who he was in some regard.

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Right, right. So I mean, first of all, most people could not read William Grigg. I remember one time

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I gave one of his articles to a guy who considered himself to have great erudition.

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And he said to me, this guy is a terrible writer. I can't understand a thing he says.

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And I said, No, actually, he's an excellent writer. You're just a terrible reader. And I said,

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I said, about 800 ABCDFG hooked on phonics might work for you.

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That's right. In fact, many of our listeners will be unaware of the fact that my guest Robert Unger was a spokesperson, a national spokesperson at one time for hooked on phonics.

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And even his son who's now an adult. It was Adam, right? Of the two boys was

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Adam that did the TV commercials, hooked on phonics worked for me. And it was which was seen on the

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Rush Limbaugh television program quite regularly. Yep.

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And show, but, you know, it, it was knocked out of business by the government, because God forbid, you should teach kids how to read.

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That's a capital crime. And Will had a blog called pro libertate.

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And he, he, believe it or not, a lot of folks who may be are familiar with his political writings may not even know that he was,

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I believe, the president, if not the president, one of the members of the Jerry Seinfeld society.

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He was a big fan of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld. That's funny. Yeah, he had very diverse interests.

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He was a big music aficionado. He was a musician himself.

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He played in a band and had a great appreciation for all types of music.

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And had a lot of diverse interests and tremendous amount of knowledge.

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I mean, he was he was definitely what they call a Renaissance man for sure. But you know, he was living in a time where not only do we not have a

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Renaissance, we have a renovation, a teardown, so to speak, of society, and the principles that formed this society.

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And the teardown is not going to lead to a better society, but a far worse one.

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And we're heading right for it. That's right. For those of you who couldn't figure out from the

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Latin phrase pro libertate, what that means, but if you if you took enough time, you would probably figure it out.

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But it's pro liberty or pro freedom in Latin. And that was the hallmark of Will's writing and the emphasis of his career and his livelihood and his life.

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Second to his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ was were the freedoms that he cherished that he wanted

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Americans to be able to experience enjoy and enjoy for many decades, if not centuries to come if the

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Lord should tarry, but he was seeing them being stripped away from us and vanishing, and not only from the what is known as the left wing of the aisle of the, the

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Democrats and the Democratic Party, but also even from Republicans, but perhaps you could help our listeners understand a bit of the political ideology of William Norman Grigg.

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He was a Christian libertarian. And when many people hear the term libertarian, they automatically jump to a conclusion.

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And of course, the Libertarian Party isn't any help because of the really serious departure,

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I think that the leaders in that party are guilty of that departure of what libertarian actually means.

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But people will jump to the wrong conclusion that it is a liberal ideology in that it is pro -abortion, pro -homosexuality, and pro a lot of things that not only

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Christians, but biblically, those with biblical morality,

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Judeo -Christian morality would find abhorrent. But that is not the case with those people are advocates of actually libertiniism, not libertarianism, libertineism.

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Yes. And what the case is, though, is that some people might draw the wrong conclusion that a even a, a

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Christian libertarian, or even such as you, an Orthodox Jewish libertarian, they may draw the wrong conclusion that you are in favor of things just because you believe that American citizens should have the freedoms to participate and involve themselves in things and believe things and proclaim and teach things that you find very offensive personally.

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Isn't that where a lot of the confusion is? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean,

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I think the whole key to libertarian is the word liberty. And in the

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Bible, it says, proclaim liberty throughout the land, right?

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That's what Moses says, as the Jews are leaving Egypt. And it also says in the

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Bible, I am the Lord thy God that brought you out of the land of Egypt. So liberty and freedom is a major theme in Judaism.

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Of course, there's a big difference between voluntarily putting yourself under the dominion of God, as opposed to being forced by a government to be under their dominion.

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Totally unrelated, but most people can't distinguish between the two. Yes, and I look, go ahead.

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I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say that libertarianism does not believe in using force, such as converting people to at the point of a sword.

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Libertarianism says that people have free will, and have a right to make their own decision, as long as they're not abusing the liberty of someone else.

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It's the old axiom that my arm can extend as far as the point where it gets to your face.

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So as long as you're not harming someone else and impinging on their liberty, then you have liberty even to do things that may be deleterious to you.

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But who's going to decide that? Right. And unlike many libertarians, especially in the

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Libertarian Party, who believe, as a part of those liberties, a woman should be allowed to murder her unborn child, there are many, and including our dear friend,

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William Norman Grigg, and including you, who would say that child has liberties and freedoms, because that child is a human being, no matter what the mother, the father or the doctor may say, that unborn child is a human deserving of every freedom and right that those adults breathing free air can enjoy.

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Yeah, well, those who follow God are going to say that, but those who believe that man is

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God, and by the way, the Humanist Manifesto of 1928, written by John Dewey, who is the father of the public school system, says explicitly that man is

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God and that humanism is a religion, secular humanism is a religion. And so there you have the divergence of the dichotomy between the two points of view, two philosophies.

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And the average person today has basically turned the

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God of the Bible into the God of the government.

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And that's the essence of all of the isms, whether it's fascism, totalitarianism, communism, socialism,

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Nazism, and what have you. And they fail to distinguish between the two.

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And, you know, man has free will and choice as to what he does, but he doesn't have the right to murder other human beings.

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And, you know, my wife always tells our class, because she teaches and she gets in her little shots, and she says, when's the last time you ever heard a woman say, oh, my fetus is kicking?

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Right. And the interesting thing is even the liberal mainstream media will refer to an unborn child that is intended by the mother to eventually be delivered and be born, they will refer to it as a baby, or as a child.

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And that not very long ago, that husband who murdered his wife, who was pregnant, the secular news media even referred to the baby that was murdered as a result, they refer to the baby as Connor, they even use the unborn baby's name.

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But if it was an abortion, it would be a fetus. Right. A worthless blob of protoplasm.

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Yeah, and we're going to be going to a mind games they play with people who don't have any minds.

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And we're gonna be going to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question about William Norman Grigg, or about Christian libertarianism, which was the theme of his life.

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If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. And if you prefer to remain anonymous, because your question is a personal and private, involves a personal private matter, you may feel free to do so.

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It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with our first guest,

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Robert Unger, attorney at law, a mutual friend of the late William Norman Grigg.

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Welcome back.

36:24

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, we are having William Norman Grigg, the late

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William Norman Grigg, remembered by friends, and the friends remembering him may only be myself and Robert Unger today.

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We were supposed to have William Jasper as well, who is the current senior editor of the New American Magazine, but for some reason he has not yet called into the broadcast, so perhaps he is delayed and perhaps he will not even be able to participate today.

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We don't know that yet, but we do have Robert Unger, attorney at law, political pundit and activist, former radio host, along with John Kapilas of the

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Unger and Kapilas Show on Salem Media, contributing journalists to various periodicals and blogs, and a guest on various radio and television broadcasts, and an information gatherer and disseminator.

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And as I was saying, we are discussing the late William Norman Grigg, a mutual friend of ours who went home to be with the

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Lord after an unexpected death, a heart attack, on April 12th of this year, much to the shock of most who knew him, and he is certainly someone who is sorely missed.

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A Christian libertarian, a brilliant man with the nickname

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Thesaurus Rex, because he had an encyclopedic mind and a vocabulary that probably could not be contained in all the computers in a large warehouse, but he is quite a remarkable and humble individual.

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Our email address, if anybody has any questions, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

38:19

We do have a listener from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. She says, can you further define the differences between Christian libertarianism as opposed to the secular or atheistic interpretation of libertarianism?

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That's one of two questions she has. Do you have anything to add to what you view as orthodox libertarianism, and I mean orthodox in the sense of being pure and undefiled, straight, correct, however you want to interpret orthodox, as opposed to what the libertarian party is known for and their last candidates for president and vice president, who seem to even overstep the bounds of what secular libertarianism went with their view of a large government in certain areas.

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I think they were even in favor of gun control. Yeah, they weren't libertarian at all.

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You could have the same views politically as a Christian libertarian and be an atheist, theoretically.

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Right, in regard to the political side of that.

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Right, exactly. Obviously, you wouldn't have the same views on Christianity, but you don't have to be a

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Christian to be a libertarian. Likewise, you don't have to be a libertarian to be a

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Christian, but the fact of the matter is that you have to decide whether you worship

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God or you worship the government, and most people these days worship the government.

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That's their God. Yeah, and in fact, you would... Their mommy and their daddy. Right, and because of the fact that an atheistic libertarian might be, although not every atheist is a cookie cutter of the other atheist, an atheist libertarian might be more prone to be so zealously in favor of things like homosexual rights that they will be pushing for the legalization of things that would actually be stripping

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Christians and others who oppose that activity of their rights.

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For instance, if you believe in homosexual marriage or same -sex marriage, there are those, even

40:56

Christian libertarians, who say that the government doesn't even belong in our marriage at all to begin with, but the subsequent things that may occur from legalizing same -sex marriage is that those who are opposed to that may lose their rights if they refuse services and employment and other things to those people because of their activities.

41:20

Am I right on that? Yeah, well, yeah, well, the problem is we've already gone down the road where, you know, you have all these laws that are anti -discrimination, for example.

41:33

The fact of the matter is it used to be a compliment to call somebody a person of discriminatory or discriminating taste.

41:41

People have a right to associate or not associate with those according to their own choices, and no one should ever be forced to associate with anyone else.

41:54

But, you know, we're so far gone down that road, you don't have a chance of pulling any of that back.

42:03

But I think it's an interesting concept or question or issue as to what is really a right, and this is a very important thing.

42:18

Rights are not positive or affirmative things, such as the right to get something, such as an education or a home or health care or any other thing or service you might want.

42:35

It's like you wrote a book. You wrote a book with your former law partner. America doesn't owe you a living.

42:42

Right, exactly. A right is something that is inherent in a human being because God imbued them with those rights, such as the right to defend yourself, the right to have the fruit of your labor, the right to speak, the right to worship as you choose.

43:07

And because God gives you those things, nobody can take them away from you, so they're negative rights.

43:14

A right is something that cannot be taken away, whereas in the modern society or the modern cesspool of today, a right is something that you think you're entitled to get as opposed to something that can't be taken away.

43:31

Capisce? I thought you were Jewish.

43:37

Capisce, that's Italian, isn't it? Yeah, I use my Italian when

43:43

I'm getting ready to put some liberals in cement. The views and opinions of the guests at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio do not necessarily reflect those of the host.

44:00

But they should. In fact, if anybody just dawned on me, if anybody wants to get an mp3 of an interview that I did with Robert Unger and his friend

44:16

Robert Muchnick that we conducted, I don't know, I think maybe in 2010 or something like that, somewhere 2010 or prior, you can email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

44:31

because it was a very fascinating interview where these two orthodox

44:36

Jews were warning Christians about naively financially supporting and supporting in other ways the

44:46

Israeli government. Not that you are not Zionists, but you are very opposed to the

44:52

Israeli government. Well, I'm not opposed to government totally.

45:01

It just depends on who it is in office. No, that's what I meant. I meant the current, and in fact, even the government back in the year when we were discussing it.

45:12

I'm also opposed to the despicable American government.

45:18

Unfortunately, I'm opposed to almost every government because they're all despicable.

45:27

And our listener in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, Jenny also asks, who were

45:33

William Norman Griggs' favorite mentors or persons whom he admired? How much did it affect his worldview?

45:41

Well, I know that the two would be Chris Harnson and Robert Unger. I would never say that.

45:47

I would never say that was his mentor. That was a joke. But he admired us. He was our friend. But I don't know that much about William as far as those who actually led him into the beliefs that he eventually embraced and championed.

46:02

Do you? Chris, I have a contract that I have to do, and the client just arrived.

46:10

So unfortunately, we're going to have to maybe continue this at another time.

46:16

Okay, Robert. Well, I appreciate the time that you spent with us for the last 46 minutes.

46:24

And hopefully, we'll have you back on the program at some point in the near future. Okay, thanks a lot.

46:30

All righty. Well, that's a live radio for you, folks. But I don't know,

46:37

Jenny, that much about Will's how he came to embrace the

46:44

Christian libertarian position that he eventually wound up not only embracing but championing.

46:55

I happen to know that a hero of his was William Wallace, the true figure from history that the movie

47:05

Braveheart was based on. But the movie went way beyond the truths of history.

47:13

Much of it was fiction. But the actual character from history, William Wallace, who died defending the freedom of the

47:24

Scots who were being enslaved by the

47:30

British throne. And William Wallace lived and died for Scottish freedom, which that much is revealed in the movie for certain

47:42

Braveheart. And so that would be a connection, obviously. But I don't know if William Wallace became a hero of William Griggs after he already had been a libertarian or if that was before.

47:58

And so I can't say much more than that. If somebody else can email me with that information that may know more of that, that would be helpful.

48:08

And we have Joe in Slovenia who says, Dear Brother Chris, would it be fair and accurate to say that morally consistent libertarianism, the biblical kind that was promoted by Brother Griggs, is the most naturally

48:22

Christian political and social philosophy? Is Judeo -Christian libertarianism the most biblically consistent socio -political philosophy?

48:33

Thank you for a great discussion. Well, that depends upon who you ask, Joe, because I know

48:40

Christians who I agree with, that I'm nearly in lockstep with on theological issues and doctrinal issues, who are very opposed to libertarianism.

48:55

I'm not 100 % sure if that's because they thoroughly understand what it is or if they are looking at caricatures or if they are looking at the libertarian party as a living example of what the fruit of that ideology is.

49:16

I know that, for instance, Al Mohler is very opposed to libertarianism, or at least

49:24

I guess that would be an accurate description of his views, that he's very opposed to it.

49:30

I'm not saying he'd be totally opposed to it. And there are others whom I know that believe that libertarianism is only a good idea in theory in a perfect society, but it could never appropriately carry through a

49:49

Christian identity in this age that we live in that is far from perfect.

49:56

It never was perfect, this world. But they will decry that libertarianism is not the best form of government that we should have.

50:08

But in fact, there are libertarians that I know, there are Christian libertarians who would say the opposite for the same reason.

50:16

They would say that because power corrupts or power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, they would be libertarian because of that reason.

50:34

Because whenever you have a group of people who have authority over everyone else, because of the reality of original sin, and as a

50:46

Calvinist would put it, total depravity, it's very dangerous to have human beings have too much authority over the citizens they govern.

50:59

And even if those politicians and elected officials are professing to be

51:06

Christian, it can be a dangerous thing for too much power to be wielded by them.

51:11

So you're not going to get the same answer on that. I am still, if you're looking for my personal view,

51:20

I am still doing some searching and study about this issue myself.

51:27

I tend to lean toward a Christian libertarian philosophy, but I'm not fully convinced of it.

51:33

And I'm also fully aware that it is not a monolithic group of people.

51:41

I know Christian libertarians who are far more pacifistic, are far more related to pacifists than I would ever be.

51:53

In fact, I don't even understand why some of the Christian libertarians are very opposed to strong borders protecting the

52:06

United States. I don't even understand that because the borders are not there to prohibit the freedoms of citizens of the

52:15

United States to come and go. They're there to prohibit criminals and people who intend to do us harm from coming in here.

52:23

So I'm not quite sure why the Christian libertarian would view strong borders, strongly guarded borders as a negative thing.

52:35

Because a libertarian, especially if they are using that term in regard to American government, they are primarily championing or following that philosophy because they want to protect the freedoms and liberties and rights of American citizens.

52:57

So again, I'm not really sure what the quabble is about borders.

53:03

And you have some Christian libertarians that are even more pacifistic or even more easily identified as pacifists than I would be in opposition to that.

53:18

But I really appreciate you writing in, Joe, in Slovenia.

53:24

And we're going to go to station break. And when we come back, if we are not yet joined by William Jasper, I am going to air a rerun in tribute of William Norman Grigg.

53:35

So don't go away. We will be right back after these messages, God willing.

53:41

And I appreciate all of your prayers and your support for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

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01:02:31

Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

01:02:37

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, we were intending to participate in a two -hour tribute to a dear friend of mine now in glory with Christ for eternity,

01:02:49

William Norman Grigg, former senior editor of the New American Magazine, prolific writer, blogger, just an all -around brilliant man, a genius,

01:03:00

I believe. I'm not exaggerating when I use that term. William Norman Grigg, also a former

01:03:07

Mormon who came to a biblical understanding of Jesus Christ and his gospel, who by God's sovereign grace and mercy was converted to biblical

01:03:17

Christianity from Mormonism. And we were intending to do this for two hours with live guests.

01:03:26

Of the first hour, we had a mutual friend of William's and mine, Robert Unger, attorney at law, who's also a political activist, a

01:03:34

Christian libertarian, just as William Norman Grigg was. And Robert had to depart because of an obligation with his law firm.

01:03:48

So I'm not sure if William Jasper is going to be returning to the program, or should

01:03:55

I say I'm not sure if William Jasper is going to join us on the program. I just got a call from the

01:04:01

New American Standard Magazine, so I'm going to go to another break and hopefully we will find out the story then.

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So please don't go away. God willing, we will be right back after these messages with either

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01:05:39

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the

01:05:45

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01:05:51

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01:05:58

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

01:06:05

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forward slash Iron Sharpens today. Well, welcome back.

01:08:15

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are actually waiting for a substitute guest from the

01:08:20

New American Magazine to call us. That's music that you hear from a conference call number.

01:08:31

And it won't stop until we have our guest join us. And it is quite annoying, but we'll have to deal with it.

01:08:40

But while we are waiting for our guest to join us, I have a couple of announcements to make.

01:08:46

The Foundations Conference in New York City is going to be held

01:08:51

June 22nd and 23rd of next week, featuring a number of speakers, including

01:08:59

Dr. Steven J. Lawson, Dr. Joel Beeky, Phil Johnson, Gerard Hemmings, Todd Friel, and others.

01:09:05

If you would like to register for the Foundations Conference, their website is thefoundationsconference .com.

01:09:13

thefoundationsconference .com. I will be there, God willing, and I hope to see as many of you as possible there. And then, coming up after that, the

01:09:22

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is going to be having their conference in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

01:09:30

And that conference is on the theme for Still Our Ancient Foe, which any of you who sings

01:09:39

A Mighty Fortress at the church where you are a member, you may immediately recognize that line from Martin Luther's classic hymn, for Still Our Ancient Foe.

01:09:49

Well, that is the theme of the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology from November 17th through the 18th, featuring speakers

01:09:57

Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. And if you'd like to join me

01:10:03

November 17th through the 18th at that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

01:10:09

and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. And then after that, we have coming up next year, the

01:10:20

G3 Conference, G3 2018. I'm so delighted to be a part of that conference and to have my own exhibitor's booth there.

01:10:29

Thanks to Josh Bice, who is orchestrating this event, of speakers that will be familiar to you.

01:10:36

Will be Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and Josh Bice, and Vody Baucom, and H .B.

01:10:46

Charles Jr., and a whole host of others. Todd Friel is also speaking at that conference.

01:10:51

Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and then click on the

01:10:58

G3 Conference 2018 for details about that specific conference.

01:11:07

And last but not least, I have to remind you that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in urgent need of financing.

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If you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your local church and for your home,

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I would love to hear from you with a check of any amount made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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01:11:56

Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:02

and put advertising in the subject line. Well, I believe that we have been finally joined by our second guest from the

01:12:09

New American Magazine, who is substituting for William F. Jasper. We don't currently know why

01:12:14

William could not join us as he originally agreed to, but we are paying tribute to William Norman Grigg, a late brother in Christ of mine and friend, a man who was a brilliant philosopher and champion for liberty and freedom under the banner of Christian libertarianism.

01:12:38

And I am honored to welcome for the first time a faculty, or not a faculty member,

01:12:44

I should say a staff member of the New American Magazine. And I'm sorry, but I do not know your name.

01:12:50

This is the first time in my entire career. Go ahead. My name is

01:12:57

Tom Edlum. I'm actually not on the staff of the New American at present, but I was for 13 years during the time

01:13:04

Will was on staff. And I was the head of the research department from 1990 to 2001, and then a freelancer with the

01:13:19

New American Magazine for many years after that. So I knew Will very well. His office was right next to mine, and you're right, he was one of the greats.

01:13:28

He was the kind of guy, I mean, I still remember the first time he came into the office. He'd written a few freelance stories for the

01:13:34

New American. And Bill Jasper, who wasn't based in Appleton, Wisconsin, but he said, we've got to get this guy on the staff.

01:13:43

And he came into the office, and by the time I'd gotten there, somebody had quipped that he was Thesaurus Rex because he had this amazing vocabulary.

01:13:53

He was maybe not even 30 years old at the time, but he had this amazing vocabulary and an amazing ability to remember almost everything.

01:14:03

Yeah, he became one of my favorite guests on the old

01:14:09

Iron Sharpens Iron radio program broadcasting out of New York. And he was also a guest that I could within five minutes notice, sometimes even a minute's notice,

01:14:19

I could call him if a guest unexpectedly had to cancel, like today when

01:14:25

William Jasper didn't show up for some reason. I could call Will and very often within just minutes or even a minute before the show, he would say, sure, let's do it.

01:14:40

And he didn't even need to prepare. I mean, you could ask him about nearly any subject in the realm of politics, freedom, liberty, and Christianity, and even

01:14:53

Mormonism, his former religion. And he would immediately be able to, it would be like bursting open a dam and you would just be flooded with this information.

01:15:06

And if you didn't interrupt him or stop him, he would just continue to talk because he was just a fountain of information.

01:15:12

Now, can you, I'm sorry about this. You want to interrupt him, that's the thing. That's right, you wouldn't. I never -

01:15:18

Too much information. Yeah, in fact, the only time I would interrupt him, it was when he came to a stop in his answer or had to go to a commercial break.

01:15:27

But this is the first time I ever had a guest join us that I didn't even know what your name is.

01:15:32

If you could repeat your name and spell the last name for me. Sure, Tom. Sure, it's

01:15:37

Tom Edlum, E -D -D -L -E -M. And like I said, I was the

01:15:43

Director of Research 2001. And a freelancer for many years after that.

01:15:51

I was actually kind of surprised they called me. I'm not currently writing for the New American, but I mean, I did for many years.

01:15:57

And I knew Will very well, so I suppose that makes sense. Well, that's the most important thing anyway.

01:16:04

His office, when he was on staff in Appleton, his office was less than six feet from mine. And when they first hired him and they assigned him to the research department, so he was working for me.

01:16:18

But within a couple of weeks, we all knew that, well, that doesn't make any sense. So he was sort of a...

01:16:24

They quickly gave him the title Senior Editor. And basically what that meant was researcher writer.

01:16:30

And he didn't have any role in it. I mean, we had some pretty extensive files in the library.

01:16:38

And it didn't make any sense to have him go put away books that we'd use. Because we needed him to write the pieces for the

01:16:47

New American and to record video and write scripts for video and all of the other things that he did when he was on staff.

01:16:55

But it was just a pleasure to be next to him. He's a great gentleman. But just like every other genius that I've...

01:17:04

Well, every other genius that I've ever known, he's probably the only one that I've known really well.

01:17:10

He did so many things so well, but he had certain things that he just... They were just basic things that he had trouble with.

01:17:17

He always had trouble dressing fashionably. He always had trouble keeping his office neat.

01:17:23

It was just little things that you say, oh, yeah, you're not perfect. You're not perfect. But he was very good at it.

01:17:31

He was just a great guy, great sense of humor. He would have you laughing about everything.

01:17:38

I mean, we had this internal memo that the research department put together. And Will and Bill Jasper both contributed to it.

01:17:49

But quickly, Will wrote the majority of it. I mean, there were... It was myself and two other full -time researchers and Will and Bill, the five of us contributed.

01:17:58

And every week, he wrote the majority and he wrote the best stuff. We were just cracking up people.

01:18:05

It was like the hot property on the staff that everybody wanted to see it.

01:18:11

What outrageous thing had he written this week that was so funny?

01:18:17

It is just to give you one example. He wrote about the Unabomber being apprehended.

01:18:24

And he was apparently not, he was apprehended. He hadn't bathed in a while. And Will's phraseology,

01:18:32

I'm gonna totally mess it up here, was that he had been living in a yurt made of his own offal.

01:18:42

I didn't know what a yurt was and I didn't know what offal meant, but I knew the context and I thought it was hilarious.

01:18:49

Then I looked up in a dictionary and I laughed even louder. I mean, that was the kind of thing. He could use these words that nobody knew, but the context was so clear that it didn't matter.

01:19:01

And he wasn't the kind of guy, I mean, we all know those kind of people who use big words to show off and say

01:19:10

I'm smart. He didn't do that. He just used the best words.

01:19:16

He wasn't a show -off. I mean, I'd always play the, if you ever watched Gilligan's Island, I'd play the

01:19:22

Gilligan to his skipper. You know what I mean? Well, actually, he would be more like the professor, wouldn't he?

01:19:29

He'd be the professor. No, he was the professor, but I would always, usually

01:19:34

I knew what he was saying, but I would always, he would use some words that I'd say, yeah, and it's this too, and using really simple words.

01:19:42

And he'd go, all right, Gilligan, we just had this great relationship, but he wasn't a show -off.

01:19:51

That's, I think, the difference because I've run into a lot of great people who, oh, I'm gonna use this big word just to show how smart

01:19:58

I am. Not because it's the best word, it's just because I can show off.

01:20:04

And he was not that kind of person. Yeah, his vocabulary, his immense vocabulary came out of him just as effortlessly as carbon dioxide.

01:20:17

I mean, it was just... He would remember almost everything that he'd read and quote it accurately.

01:20:25

I mean, he was, I mean, my specialty was research. I could find everything and I kind of remembered where everything was, but he remembered it word for word.

01:20:34

I mean, the interesting thing is, he couldn't manage technology.

01:20:41

I can't tell you how many times I'd go in his office and recruit a file because he couldn't find where he saved it or whatever.

01:20:47

Of course, these were the older Windows computers, but he called himself a techno -clutz.

01:20:56

He got better at it as it went along, but he had the ability to remember so many things and then he'd not learn the

01:21:06

Windows operating system. It was kind of weird, but he was just a great guy.

01:21:14

I actually got to know his wife before he did because she was my intern.

01:21:23

Oh, really? The two of them met. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember when this was, probably about 1995,

01:21:32

I'm guessing. We got a couple of interns for the summer, attractive young ladies, and one of them ended up being his wife.

01:21:41

They hit it off and at the end of the summer, she went home, but they were quickly married shortly after that.

01:21:54

Six kids came out of that union. Yes, one of them, he named after William Wallace, his hero from the

01:22:02

Braveheart fame. Yeah, he had a lot of great names in his kids.

01:22:09

They were a lot of great heroes. Isaiah, there are a lot of biblical names in there.

01:22:18

A few patriotic heroes too, like he named one of his sons

01:22:23

Jefferson. So he had a combination of different names that he'd use to the people that he'd respected and seen as someone to emulate.

01:22:35

In fact, perhaps you can answer a question that came in earlier that I was not able to answer and neither could my first guest, a mutual friend of William's, Robert Unger.

01:22:51

I had a listener Oh, yeah. In Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, who asked, who were

01:23:01

Griggs' favorite mentors or persons whom he admired and how much did it affect his worldview?

01:23:08

Or probably a better phrase, how much did they affect his worldview? I did not know who actually was his mentor, if you will, in coming to a

01:23:21

Christian libertarian position. And specifically, even before he was a

01:23:27

Christian libertarian, he was a libertarian with more conservative leanings with biblical morality, having been a

01:23:34

Mormon before he became a Christian. But who were his mentors in that area? I don't know if there was any one person.

01:23:45

He followed his own star and leaving one church was really difficult for him.

01:23:53

Not so much because of theology. I mean, he just picked up the book of John and said, you know, gee,

01:24:00

Jesus claimed to be God. He either was or he was a liar. You know, the

01:24:06

Mormon doctrine that says, you know, he was a Greek guy, but not God. It does not match with John.

01:24:12

And, you know, he did not, I mean, the Mormon church is very hostile to people who leave the church.

01:24:23

And, you know, his family and his in -laws both were, you know,

01:24:29

Mormons and nice people. But he really worried about alienating his parents.

01:24:37

I know that they came around after, they were very, although in disagreement, in strong disagreement with his theological developments, they were still, eventually at least, came to embrace him and love him and so on.

01:24:53

They did, they did. But he was very concerned about that. I mean, you know, there's a contradiction there that you're told to honor your father and your mother, but you're also told to honor

01:25:07

God, but God first. And that's the way Will Gray looked at it. And, you know, he basically said,

01:25:13

I don't want to, you know, cause a rift in the family, but if God wants me to, you know,

01:25:19

I have to accept the truth. And, you know, it was difficult for him. Really difficult for him to do that.

01:25:25

You know, there's a show called Breaking Amish. I mean, breaking Mormon is tough in some circles.

01:25:33

And he worried about that. And, you know, his parents are sincere Mormons and his in -laws are sincere

01:25:39

Mormons. The vast majority of his friends outside of, perhaps even inside of his work with libertarianism and political activism, but the majority of people that he knew, loved and cherished were

01:25:56

Mormons. In fact, even when he was a Christian, he spoke of Mormons as his people in the same way that the apostle

01:26:03

Paul spoke of the Jews as his people. And he longed for, in the apostle

01:26:09

Paul's case, he longed for his Jewish brethren, his kinsmen to come to embrace

01:26:15

Christ. And that was echoed in William's life and heart and mind in regard to Mormons.

01:26:25

Oh, of course. I mean, you know, Mormons aren't all wrong. They're just wrong on, you know,

01:26:30

I say that from my theological viewpoint, but also from Will's, that, you know, they have some areas where they're just flat out wrong.

01:26:40

Well, they have the very, very serious ones that would create a chasm of difference between the two religions,

01:26:46

I think. Well, no, absolutely. I'm not trying to diminish them. I'm just saying that they're, you know, he recognized that there were similarities as well.

01:26:55

Oh, of course. But he also recognized that... The Ten Commandments. Yeah, and he also recognized that these were people that he loved, that they were part of his heart and so on.

01:27:06

That's right. And we're going to be going to a brief final break and we'll be right back after these messages.

01:27:12

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question regarding William Norman Grigg or perhaps regarding Christian libertarianism, which was the hallmark of his life, give us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:27:26

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01:27:32

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01:31:37

Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in we are contributing I should say we are paying tribute to our dear friend the late

01:31:46

William Norman Grigg who went home to glory with Christ in eternity on April 12, 2017.

01:31:55

William Norman Grigg who was a brilliant man to the level of genius without being guilty of exaggeration and he was a man who championed the freedoms and liberties that were forged by our founding fathers in the founding of this nation and even more important than that inalienable rights that we received from Jesus Christ our

01:32:27

Lord God and Savior and William was quite a fascinating individual as well.

01:32:33

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

01:32:39

and if you could tell us about something about yourself a brief description of yourself not only with the

01:32:45

New American Magazine but about your own faith and so on. My association with the

01:32:56

New American Magazine goes back to 1987 I'm from the

01:33:01

Boston area you may be able to tell that from my accent and I worked briefly on the staff quit and they asked me to rejoin the research staff when they decided to move headquarters to Appleton, Wisconsin so I went out in 1989 and stayed there until 2001.

01:33:20

I just, I don't know my family's here my wife's family is here wanted to move back to Boston and so in 2001

01:33:27

I left the staff and moved back to Boston and I'm a high school history teacher right now so when you said

01:33:35

I'm on the faculty at the beginning introducing me you weren't all wrong I also contribute to a number of periodicals in fact

01:33:47

I've got a piece coming up on the Libertarian Institute Will Griggs' home base for the last year in the next couple of days or so on the issue of the church committee hearings so I've been a freelance writer since I left the staff writing for the

01:34:06

New American Magazine up until last year and then also for the Libertarian Institute the

01:34:13

Future Freedom Foundation Anymore .com occasionally for Lew Rockwell though not so much lately and I won't say if you asked me earlier in the last segment what were

01:34:24

Will's formative influences and I would say the two of us were probably most influenced toward Libertarianism by Anymore .com

01:34:35

in the 1990s with Justin Romendose and the whole struggle against the

01:34:42

Balkan Wars under the Clinton administration and LewRockwell .com and his great website there over the not just the

01:34:50

Von Mises Institute but his personal blog there we were both very influenced by it of course

01:34:56

Will became a regular contributor at LewRockwell I became a much less regular contributor but I still contributed occasionally so my personal faith

01:35:08

I grew up in a Catholic church and I remain a Catholic I teach at a Catholic high school so I would subscribe to most of what you would say and I would say probably the most important theological parts of what

01:35:20

Jesus is you know faith in Jesus is essential for salvation

01:35:25

I would agree with you on that works are not the do not earn people salvation so I think you know we would be fairly similar we'd have some differences about church structure actually you'd be probably have you probably have some differences with your own church if you read the

01:35:48

Council of Trent because of the works issue but I would love to have a conversation with you about that for years

01:35:55

I have organized loving respectful public moderated theological debates between evangelical

01:36:03

Protestants and Roman Catholics and in fact I was raised the Roman Catholic myself and probably have more seriously religious and faithful Roman Catholic friends now than I did when

01:36:19

I was a Roman Catholic most of my Roman Catholic friends were totally nominal and had really no actual faith in what the religion of their youth was but that's not why we are talking today we were paying tribute to our friend and I was wondering if you had an answer to a question that came in before you joined us

01:36:41

Joe in Slovenia I tried to answer Joe as best as I could but it would probably be helpful to have you who probably more resemble or are more accurately identified as a libertarian he says dear brother

01:37:01

Chris would it be fair and accurate to say that morally consistent libertarianism the biblical kind that was promoted by brother

01:37:08

Greg is the most naturally Christian political and social philosophy is

01:37:14

Judeo -Christian libertarianism the most biblically consistent socio -political philosophy that was

01:37:22

Joe in Slovenia asked that question I would obviously agree

01:37:28

I certainly will Greg would agree but it's a broad when you say libertarianism there are all kinds of flavors of it and different you know there's libertine libertarianism as well as as you mentioned the biblically version one of the things

01:37:43

I really liked the distinctions that Will used to make when it comes to the law is he made a distinction between crimes and vices that the you know the libertarian

01:37:56

Christian says okay well the law has to stop people from hurting each other but it doesn't necessarily have to get involved in banning sin to to stop a person from hurting him or herself

01:38:13

I think that's that's the general principle he went under I don't know exactly how far he would take it

01:38:21

I mean you know I would I would moderate it somewhat I mean if someone were to commit suicide try to commit suicide

01:38:28

I would say well no the state probably should intervene I mean not to criminalize it but to to to stop this you know what is morally and objectively you know a selfish act because even even a person who even a person who is desiring suicide is deserving of a liberty to live that's may seem like it's oxymoronic but he may not be in the right frame of mind when he has requested the assistance of suicide so in other words you're saving him from the temporary frame of mind is and I'm sorry go ahead right

01:39:06

I but the point is I think you know as a general rule yes I mean

01:39:11

Jesus you can go back to the the whole story of the uh the Good Samaritan you know the the people that walked by Jesus the

01:39:22

Pharisee uh you know the the priest they were uh essentially government agents in that time you know they were essentially government people and it was the the foreigner the heretic who helped the man in the road and uh you know it wasn't that Jesus didn't

01:39:42

I think he used that analogy deliberately in a number of ways but one of the ways that I think is he's saying that don't you don't have to necessarily go to government that you know charity is something that comes out of you not comes out of some sort of social compunction social uh requirement that you know we shouldn't expect it from the government government should act correctly but it doesn't mean that charity comes from government

01:40:13

I think that was a key example so you can you can go up and down the scriptures and you won't find a lot of cases where the government or anyone in the scripture would say oh well we'll take care of the poor from government coffers yeah the church provided for their own they voluntarily provided for their own they didn't have their money or they weren't in agreement

01:40:37

I should say with their money being stolen from them so that the government could decide what charities it wants to provide for or support so you're right there's nothing in the bible where Christians were supporting the government the pagan government to provide for anyone as far as acts of charity yeah and I'm not saying that you know someone who says the government ought to do that can't be a

01:41:07

Christian but I'm saying that you know if you look at the you know the way Jesus taught it and and the way the bible describes his teaching it doesn't really say that that should be the way it's uh it's it it it is more consistent

01:41:22

I think with libertarianism that it is with certainly so you know social democracy as it's called or you know

01:41:31

Bernie Sanders version of a you know moderate socialism or welfare state yeah and I thought not go ahead yeah

01:41:44

I was just going to say that one of the key or some of the key areas uh a couple of the key areas where um where will would stand in contrast to your average self -professed conservative republican and of course that is not republican party is not monolithic at all but the one the the the identity that your average person would form in their minds or the picture that they would form in their minds when somebody would depict themselves as a conservative republican that a couple of the things that will would differ with them on would be he was very opposed to the war on drugs not because he believed that people should imbibe in illegal drugs not that he believed that people should use narcotics or recreationally use drugs to be to have an altered state of mind he believed that was sin and wicked but he didn't believe that the government had the role of babysitting us in that way to protect us from our own stupid mistakes that would that would be one issue right

01:43:03

I mean he wasn't when I was in college many you know not I guess quite a few years ago now uh

01:43:09

I think I graduated 30 years ago today uh the or a couple weeks ago the my impression of libertarianism was basically what

01:43:18

I call the 5p libertarian if you're libertarian you're either a pornographer, prostitute, pro -abortion, that I forget the other piece yeah pimp was one of them right you know but the idea was you know they were they were libertines and Will certainly wasn't one of those but you know he also recognized that there are there are limits to state power and and when the government starts trying to enforce things in someone's head in you know enforce sins or prevent sins it doesn't end well and uh and in fact even even the others just even the even the laws of the

01:44:06

United States during the prohibition period did not end well at all they gave rise to organized crime those very laws created the mafia they did and and uh so so did laws against the other vices you know the laws against the gamblers and then prostitutes and I I don't know what the perfect law you know the perfect social balance is

01:44:36

I guess there isn't any in this imperfect world until uh the second coming but uh I'm pretty sure that you know having it as one of the things

01:44:46

Will pointed out was hey we we have more than a thousand Americans die at the hands of police every year when

01:44:52

Germany has two on average every year why is that because we over enforce so many laws we right uh you know have this war on drugs and they most of these these police staff he would probably have said all are unnecessary right yeah that's another reason that's another way he would that be different from your average conservative republican right oh absolutely absolutely

01:45:21

I you know I'm looking forward to you know his other books coming out and he still has he when he died he left two book projects in in the works

01:45:29

I wrote the introduction to one of them it's his compilation of his essays he uh he uh selected his title as no quarter the ravings of William Norman Grigg that's the title of the book so that one is that that one will be coming out and then also the

01:45:46

Libertarian Institute's working on a book uh about the Christopher Tapp case so you know he'll continue to be why don't you explain that to our listeners explain that case to our listeners

01:45:59

I don't know a lot about it well I mean I I read some of the later articles

01:46:05

I mean it was a it essentially it was a case where uh this kid was forced to plead guilty to something he didn't really do in order to get a conviction whatever the conviction score run up and he was bullied into a plea bargain and you know he he got a long prison sentence and and it's still ongoing um the

01:46:37

I I've I've read an article about it and I've forgotten most of it I apologize I'm not William Norman Grigg I don't pretend to be he uh he would be able to tell you every detail even if he'd only read the article once but uh

01:46:50

I'm not him and another another way that William would be set apart from your average or the or the poster boy for conservative republicanism was that he was very opposed to the

01:47:08

United States entangling itself at the risk and and even at the sacrifice of the lives of millions of our young people in foreign conflicts that had no bearing upon the safety of the

01:47:28

United States the safety and well -being of the United States a lot of republicans not all

01:47:34

I said that they're not a monolithic group but a lot of them would be more accurately described as war hawks or people that that were in even though if they would never identify themselves as imperialists they would want to topple the governments of dictatorships overseas to establish some kind of a democracy that never winds up being the picture of American democracy that the

01:48:02

American government intends it to be and things like that he was more of an isolationist in that regard would that be correct he wouldn't he would uh chafe at the term isolationist he would say

01:48:17

I want to trade with everybody I just don't want to kill them yeah that's that's uh yeah right you're right exactly yeah he would he would

01:48:25

I mean but as far as he would call himself a non -interventionist as I would too he uh we really got into the non -interventionist mode back in the 1990s uh at the

01:48:37

New American with the uh the Balkan Wars in Macedonia and Montenegro and Serbia and opposing those totally unnecessary wars wars that had nothing to do with American security or defense and you know we lost very few

01:48:58

American soldiers lives but you know he would have been the first to say our leaders did not sufficiently respect and esteem the lives of our soldiers they basically said well they signed up they're willing we're willing to trade their lives away in order to move some pieces on the chessboard internationally and we would have said no they signed up to protect their country if need be but they're they didn't want their lives to be pawns they didn't want to uh you know sacrifice their lives for other lives

01:49:32

I mean this isn't you know a bizarre in in in some third world country where you trade you know rugs it's it's a place where you you're dealing with the lives and and family members of of American servicemen that you say you're respecting but in the in in fact you're steaming them their lives fairly lowly by saying well it's it's worth it if we set up a new government in in Serbia or bring uh

01:50:02

Milosevic to to trial in in at the International Court of the

01:50:08

Hague and it's not it's not worth American lives and uh he he would have he would have said that he also would have as as any

01:50:16

Christian should looked on the other side and said we're also taking the lives of innocents abroad and their lives are worth just as much as an

01:50:24

American life and uh you know as Christians we have to recognize the golden rule so he would have been booed just like Ron Paul was booed at the uh 2012 uh presidential debate yes in fact

01:50:39

I can recall that he was a supporter of Ron Paul uh when he ran for president um

01:50:47

I don't think he was yeah I don't think we'll ever saw a candidate that completely uh or comfortably matched his ideology but Ron Paul and his estimation was the best that we had to offer and um

01:51:05

I think you're right he he would have said in imperfect world that all men are fall short except one and uh he wasn't running meaning

01:51:14

Jesus was not running for president so you know why uh you know we we we have to choose among the candidates that are offered and and among the ones that were offered during his lifetime he he liked

01:51:27

Ron Paul to pass and Ron Paul liked him he wrote a nice very nice obituary uh and tribute to to Will uh after he had died uh well uh before we run out of time

01:51:40

I'd like you to have a couple of minutes to just summarize what you most cherish about your memories about this dear brother uh

01:51:49

William Norman Grigg now in glory for eternity uh with the

01:51:54

Christ he came eventually to love honor obey and serve after his conversion to biblical

01:52:01

Christianity what would you have to summarize about him that you'd like our audience to be left with today well

01:52:10

I would want them to know that that he was a sincere practicing Christian uh but other than that I would

01:52:17

I would I'll remember the small things the little things uh the the the meetings in in the office uh between especially the jokes that he would tell him he would tell these most inside jokes that nobody in the world but him and he and I and the artist on staff at the

01:52:36

New American Magazine Scott Albertson the three of us would tell a joke and nobody else in the world would be able to get it but it was so funny he could tell these inside jokes and um you know he died

01:52:47

I I I uh sent a little private message to Scott and I said you're the only one left now to tell these jokes it'll be but uh just it's the little things you know he was just so I was basically you know a fan boy

01:53:03

I mean you know and so was everybody else in the office we just and I was lucky enough to have his desk closest to mine um you know he uh he was just a few a few feet away and I could always you know knock on the door actually

01:53:17

I usually didn't have to knock it was open uh and we'd have a conversation about anything I I remember those little conversations

01:53:24

I remember uh you know his his kids running around the office uh uh you know uh in the later years uh you know they're very small but uh those are the things

01:53:35

I'll remember uh you know he the big issues in the in in the uh uh the great uh language every time

01:53:43

I read his stuff I I remember that with fondness but uh I'll try to keep uh you know the humanity of him in in my heart as well because uh it's in those little things sometimes that you you can really appreciate a person yeah and uh one of the areas that I wanted to ask you about is as far as I remember one of the things that he disagreed with other libertarians on or not all libertarians but many libertarians is that he believed in uh a strong uh strongly secured border did he not the

01:54:19

American of the United States I think he pretty much had moved uh away from that uh over time

01:54:32

I mean he he and I had both written some pieces calling for for the new American writing calling for enforcement of the uh but as time went on he just became more and more skeptical that that was really the best policy and I what

01:54:49

I was reproached by a John Birch Society member privately to write some more hardcore hard -hitting pieces against illegal immigration and I did some research and I came out on the other end of the issue

01:55:01

I I read the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions and uh

01:55:08

Jefferson and Madison very repeatedly and very uh strongly condemned uh border controls as unconstitutional at the federal level they said this power was reserved for the states they you know they were writing at that time in response to the alien action and as well in the sedition act as well uh 1798 of course at this time

01:55:33

I was also teaching that uh but I came to the conclusion that gee uh you know we should obviously keep murderers and terrorists from coming to this country but but uh people are people and we've had

01:55:48

I don't know I've seen a lot of the arguments against immigration over the years as I've taught as I've taught uh

01:55:55

American history no nothing era the the 1920s with the Ku Klux Klan era legislation the um you know the the gentleman's agreement about the

01:56:08

Japanese the the Chinese uh prohibition act of 1882

01:56:15

I've seen a lot of the same arguments and and I'm not convinced that a

01:56:20

Mexican coming here today is any more dangerous than an Italian 100 years ago or an Irishman 150 uh so I I and I think

01:56:29

Will was was moving more in that direction I don't think he said anything definitively but if you read his his pieces he was he was generally critical of those who focused on immigration yeah

01:56:42

I know that he was very uh obvious he was always very leery of the the strength of the federal government to do anything so that was uh uh to my knowledge he hadn't written anything definitively about about immigration probably in you know since 2006 you know he but in in conversations with me

01:57:04

I mean we remained home pals and you know Facebook private message pals for for you know till the end but uh uh you know he he hadn't said anything one way or the other to me definitively to say oh there shouldn't be any federal immigration controls at all or I mean

01:57:22

I I think he probably would have been uh generally skeptical of it but would have said well we do obviously you can't stop you have to stop an invading army you have to stop a a crook you have to stop someone with a uh communicable disease

01:57:38

I I would guess he would say that um right and in fact on that I I I can't speak for him in fact yeah

01:57:46

I know that he uh he was certainly no pacifist that's a certain but uh he uh no uh but uh he uh was a very gentle and uh loving man who uh had a great passion to see the life of individuals preserved and um he he uh including the unborn and I just I miss him dearly

01:58:10

I miss everything about him that that many of the things that you have related are things that echo in my own memory and I I miss him dearly and I pray for his family and uh

01:58:21

I hope that the lord uh brings about provision for them as they need it and I know that the pro libertate blog with its final um uh article on march 12th 2017 before will went home to glory that the pro libertate website is still functioning and at freedom in our time dot blogspot .com

01:58:51

that's freedom in our time dot blogspot .com and I know that uh people can purchase will's books on amazon perhaps he's most famous for freedom on the altar the un's crusade against god and family you could get that on amazon very inexpensively these days and perhaps uh

01:59:13

I'm assuming all of his books that he has written he didn't write that many books but I know that you as you have said there are two that are soon to be in print god willing so uh if anybody wants any updates on will greg they can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com