Interview: Brandon Germany on Presuppositional Methodology

Introduction to the Reformed Rookie Podcast and Presuppositional Apologetics

Well hello everyone and welcome to the Reform Rookie podcast. My name is Anthony Uvinio and I'm your Reform Rookie, bringing you all things Reformed. The goal of this channel and this podcast is to take the deep, rich truths of the Reformed tradition and help you see the beauty in them and the joy you'll experience in understanding them better.

Understanding these truths will help you better know the God of the Scriptures and help us better appreciate His sovereign plan of salvation. Well today I'm really excited for this guest that I have. His name is Brandon Germany and he's a bright young man and an up-and-coming name in the presuppositional apologetics world.

He does shorts on YouTube on apologetics, presuppositional apologetics, and he does debate and discussions with atheists. And I really can't wait to say that you saw him here first on my channel. So he and I also have something in common in that we both had a discussion with Chris May, who's an agnostic on YouTube, and we're going to get into a discussion with that.

So with that, welcome Brandon.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, no problem. Please tell us a little bit more about yourself, your family, what you.

Do, that type of stuff.

Family Life, Church, and a Journey Out of Nominal Christianity

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I'm over here in Oregon, in the Portland, Oregon metro area. I'm married to my beautiful wife. November will be six years we've been married. We have three kids, another one on the way.

So we're very, very grateful for that. We take the commandment to be fruitful and multiply very seriously. So we are slowly, you know, if I can just say, as a post-millennialist, I really believe that having as many kids as possible is really helpful.

You know, if the world ends in a few years, what does it matter? But Christ is establishing his kingdom. I know that's way off topic. I just like to throw that out.

Well, that's spot on.

But no, I'm over here in Oregon. Yeah, yeah, that's me. In the last few years, I really started to get into apologetics and I fell in love with it. And, you know, apologetics and evangelism go hand in hand.

So any way that we can get the gospel proclamation out into the world, I'm going to go for it. So that's me in a nutshell.

Amen. So now, do you serve in a church? Are you part of a regular body, you know, 1689 church? What type of church do you go to?

So out here in the Portland area, I think there's only one Reformed church, and I don't even know if they're still open. Finding Reformed churches out here is very difficult. With that said, there are many conservative churches, for sure.

There's many churches where the preaching and teaching tends to lean Reformed. But finding a full on Reformed church, it's not going to happen out here, unfortunately. So the church we're serving at now, we've been there since COVID.

They were the only church in the area that was open. Nothing was open for so long. And so my wife and I were like three months into COVID and we're like, we gotta go somewhere. Our church, our home church was not opening up.

So we started going to this other church and it got plugged in right away. And we've been going there.

Ever since.

Amen. Amen. I'm glad that they kept the doors open. Worship is essential. And really, our church, we stayed open and we actually gained members from it because people were starving for the word of God.

So praise God. I'm so glad that you plugged into a serious body of believers who are going to stay open, regardless of what they're told from someone else.

Yep. Absolutely.

From Word of Faith to Reformed Theology

Okay. So as a first time guest, I'd like to hear your testimony, how you came to Christ and then how you came to an understanding of Reformed theology and actually embraced.

It.

Yeah, yeah, we could, we could spend a couple hours on that alone. Out of my immediate family growing up, I'm the only Christian left. We were raised nominally Christian. You know, we wore the title, we went to church, but it was never a serious cornerstone of the family and of the family structure.

There was never any prayer, never any scripture reading, never any serious dealing with sin. So much so that I remember when my mother found out that I was looking at things on the internet that I wasn't supposed to, she said, are you doing this?

And me being a preteen, I said, I'm not doing that. And that was the end of it. She said, okay. And then I spent the next, you know, however many years, you know, but that's just kind of a snapshot where we were Christian, but it was so surface level.

And now as an adult seeing what's become of it, I've seen the fruit of nominal Christianity. And in today's culture, you can't be a nominal Christian and remain a Christian. It just doesn't work. And so, but the church we went to, we went to a word of faith church and they started out not so heavy on the prosperity gospel.

But then over the years, they went more and more into it. And my family had all left the church. They were out doing their own thing, but I was still in this church. And they started getting more and more into the prosperity gospel, name it, claim it.

Speaking things into existence is something that they were really big on. You know, you can speak your reality. If you have enough faith, you can get a lot of money and you can have a good life. It's all about your faith.

And I was, I was the youth pastor of this church. I was their drummer. I was their technical director. Like I was deep in this church. I met with like top tier word of faith guys. I personally met Tony Cook.

I personally met Keith Moore, like some of the top tier word of faith guys. I was, I was deep in word of faith. And then what happened to me is I went through a just soul crushing experience where my faith was just rocked and all of the things that I was taught, you know, about how if you're a Christian, good things will happen.

Blessings upon blessings, glory to glory, only good stuff. Suddenly I started to question some of these things that, that I thought were fundamental to Christianity. And so what I did is, is I reached out to a certified Bible counselor who was not a part of word of faith.

And he walked me through for the first time in my life, he opened up the scriptures and walked through systematically Romans chapter eight, all things work together for the good of those who are called by God and love God.

And, and, and for the first time, actually hearing the scriptures preached really, because in word of faith, they don't preach the scriptures, they preach their ideas, and then they try to shoehorn the scriptures in.

But for the first time hearing the scriptures speak, I feel like in that moment, my spirit came alive to God and I wanted more and I had to learn the Bible. So I started reading the scriptures for myself.

And I started listening to MacArthur, Piper, a lot of these more reformed guys, not because they were reformed, because I didn't know what reformed theology was, but these guys were just preaching the scriptures.

So I just, toward them. And so, um, yeah, so, and then I started to kind of question some of the things that were being said on Sunday morning. You know, I remember there was this one guest speaker who got up and he said, he said, many of you guys have been told lies your whole life, the lie that God is in control.

God is not in control of the world. He has no control over this world. He gave it up to the devil. And we're using our faith to fight the devil. And I'm listening to that. And I'm like, that's there's no way that that's scriptural.

There's no way that no, like, are we reading the same Bible? There's no, so a lot of the stuff is kind of going on and I'm meeting with the pastors and I'm saying, Hey, here's what I'm wrestling with.

You know, I can't be the youth pastor in this season because here's what I'm going through. And, and it did not go well at all. Um, they asked me and my wife to leave the church. Um, and so that, that was also really painful.

So it was just a season of, of God breaking me down and rebuilding me and showing me who he is, not what, uh, not what they, um, not what the word of faith preachers were trying to make him out to be.

So all that to say, when, when I started to get into reformed theology, um, I, I started to learn about, uh, James White. I started to learn about Jeff Durbin. And I, I remember I was in a Facebook group for reformed theology and somebody posted the Greg Bonson and Gordon Stein debate.

And they said, this is the greatest debate you'll ever listen to. And I thought, okay, I'll give it a shot. And a brother, let me tell you, I listened to that debate. And I, I said to myself, I have to learn how to do that.

I have to know how he did that. I got to learn that. And so I, I, I started getting all the Vantill, all the Bonson, all the white, I've listened to so much of James White. Uh, it it's, you know, so I'm just devouring all, all this reformed theology and the, the apologetics came naturally.

And, um, and, uh, the, the culture that I find myself in, there's so much, uh, atheism, but a weird spiritual atheism that, um, I started to use this apologetic knowledge right away. And I fell in love with it.

And I've just been.

Seeking to grow ever since.

Amen. Amen. I have a similar testimony in the fact that I was, uh, I got saved and I was coming out of Roman Catholicism and I needed to be able to give my family and friends, you know, an answer because, you know, growing up on a, uh, on Long Island as an Italian, you know, Sundays, we're going to be arguing and eating, you know, I started going online and this was before YouTube.

So I found James White. I have boxes of his cassettes, boxes of his videotapes. And just like you, without knowing reformed theology, as he's debating, it's coming through. I'm seeing it in the scriptures.

I'm also listening to Sproul and it was just one of those things. I have a heart for evangelism and you're right. You know, apologetics and evangelism go hand in hand. So it perfectly dovetailed and very similar to you.

So how did it affect your walk as a Christian?

Sovereignty of God, Boldness, and the Great Commission

Uh, yeah, yeah. Within word of faith, uh, Calvinism is, is the ultimate heresy. Um, I remember when I met with the elders and the pastor of that church, they all took turns telling me that, that Satan has entered my mind and I've given myself over to demons.

And, and I mean, for a word of faith, they would rather you be a Satanist than be a Calvinist. I mean, that's how much they said. I'm not even joking. They, I believe they, I don't want to say hate, but they hate Calvinists.

The, the, um, so, so going from word of faith to Calvinism was a huge jump. Uh, I think for me, the biggest thing that, that I learned was, was that God is in control, that God is sovereign. Um, my whole view of Christianity switched because I was taught that, that man has this power to use our faith, to control our environment and get money and get wealthy and get famous.

But now I'm learning the call of God is self-denial. The call of the Bible is who have I in heaven, but you and earth has nothing I desire besides you. So my, my theology, my life was turned completely a 180 degree.

Um, so it's, it's affected my walk in that this, the sovereignty of God, I think is the biggest thing that I had to learn and learn how.

To love. Amen. Amen. Uh, for me, it's just made me a bolder Christian. I mean, I know that I can't die one day sooner than he's ordained. So I want to leave it all out on the field. I want to fight the good fight, you know, no matter what he's, he's, you know, Jesus says, um, actually he's Deuteronomy 20 when the, when the army goes out, I will be in your midst, you know, fear not go take the land.

So I said, you know, that's the same thing as the great commission. I will be with you even to the end of the age. What, what are we afraid of? Like, uh, I just recently spoke at a conference, uh, and I, and I told everybody in the council, I said, listen, if Jesus walked into this church right now and said, guys, let's go into the neighborhood and evangelize.

Tell me who wouldn't go. Like everybody would go. Why? Cause Jesus is there. But we forget that when we go evangelize, Jesus is still there. He's there. You know, we, we need that, that understanding and really take these things to heart.

I think for me anyway, um, and it's a continual process. I say, I believe, I say, I believe, I say, I believe. And then in my actions, it doesn't come out that way. You know, I have to say it. And if I believe it, I'm going to do it.

So I've just been, you know, more proactive, uh, in that way. So, okay. So you started a YouTube channel.

For apologetics, correct? Uh, kind of, yeah. I still don't really know what I'm doing. Well, you're doing it really well. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. So what, what happened was, uh, sorry, go ahead.

How the YouTube Channel Began and Why He Keeps Making Apologetics Content

I was just going to say, how did the channel come about? Yeah. Yeah. So what happened was, um, I did, I didn't have anything on my YouTube channel. I just used YouTube for YouTube. Um, and I was scrolling through the shorts one day and this guy popped up, um, and he, he was saying something about how, you know, God can't be the ultimate moral authority because if he told you to kill, you would know that's wrong.

And therefore there's a moral authority outside of God. And, and I thought I was reading, listening to it. And I was like, what is this guy talking? What is this? Why is it showing up on my feed? So I went to his channel and I saw that he's done dozens of debates, but they were, they were all, um, like pop culture debates.

Like he's big on the Disney stuff and star Wars. And so there were all like debates within that, but for whatever reason, he decided to throw out a God doesn't exist video. And so I reached out to him and I said, Hey, I see that you do debates.

If you want to debate on God and morality, I'll do it with you. And I've never done anything like this. And so he messaged me back and he said, I'm down, let's do it. And so I went on his channel. He's has like 30, 27 ,000 subscribers.

So I was super nervous. Um, and we did the debate and I, I, I, that was like the funnest thing I've ever done in my life. It was so much fun. I loved every second of it. It was funny. And I learned my first debate that you always have to have water nearby because like five minutes in, I started having a coughing fit and I had to leave and get water.

It was so embarrassing. Um, yeah, I learned that I fell in love. I fell in love with it. Um, and, and I realized like, I, I'm, I'm, I can do this, you know? And so I started putting some shorts out and then another guy, um, Wes was his name.

He reached out and he said, Hey, I saw you did this debate. I'll do one with you. So then I did one with him and then same thing with Chris. He messaged me and he said, Hey, I see that you've done a debate.

And then, uh, we connected and he sent me your debate, which was a phenomenal debate. And I'm not just saying that cause I'm on your channel. It was a really well done debate. And I, I commend everybody.

I didn't pay you to say that please. I have no money, none, but it was, it was really good. And so that's how you and I connected and, and, uh, yeah, so it was never, I never wanted to do an apologetics channel.

I still don't really necessarily. Um, I'm just trying to throw apologetic stuff out there right now to, to help someone, you know, if there's one person out there who can learn something or be edified or be encouraged or, or, you know, God willing a seed of the gospel be planted.

I want to, I want to take those opportunities and I want to use these gifts that I've been given for something. So that's kind of, that's kind of where I'm at right now. Amen. I, I love the,.

I love the heart. I love the attitude and certainly in your discussions and in your shorts, your passion and your zeal for it comes forward. And I'm so glad that you, you, you fell in love with this by accident with this, this particular, the first debate you did.

So, uh, I, I think I really think Brent, uh, Brendan, you're going to, you're going to grow and people are going to take notice. And I, I'm going to, I'm going to see you debating some, some highfalutin guys, some one of these days.

Thank you. Thank you. So now were you, uh, did you consider yourself an evidentialist, a classicalist, and then you came to presupp or did, like, how did you get into the presuppositional?

Presuppositional Apologetics as a Distinctively Reformed Approach

Yeah. My introduction to apologetics was through Jeff Durbin, through James White, uh, Greg Monson. So, so as far as apologetics goes, all I've ever really known is presupp. Um, so I'm sure that there are some classical guys, some evidential guys out there who, who are way more knowledgeable in this area than I am.

Um, but to answer the question, no, I, I, all I've ever known is presupp. Um, and now that I know of the other, uh, uh, categories, I'm still going to stay presupp. There's no way I'm going to jump ship.

Right. Do you recognize,.

Um, that presuppositional is distinctly reformed, right? Can you tell the audience?

Yeah, it's, it's distinctly reformed, um, in the sense that it has the highest view of God possible. Right. Um, classical apologetics and evidentialism, they seek to give man, uh, a power and a right, which he doesn't have and which the scriptures don't give him.

Uh, and the, the, the, the antithesis of, of man, of the, of, of the flesh and the spirit is throughout scripture. And to pretend like man can please God in the flesh and interpret evidence correctly is, is completely unbiblical.

It's, it's not honoring to God. If Peter tells us to sanctify Christ as Lord and then give a reason for our, for our faith, the evidentialists do it the opposite way. They pretend like maybe God doesn't exist.

And then they want to work the way to, he does. And, and Van Tillen in his defense of the faith talks about this extensively about when you build up to the existence of God, you're trying to set down these facts.

And then when you get to God, then you want to take all those facts away. That's not, that's not honoring to God. That's, that's not honoring Christ as Lord. You start with the fact that you are the creature of God and God tells you to repent for your sinful thoughts and to think his thoughts after him.

And then we can make sense of the facts. So I hope that answers the question.

Yeah, no, no, it does. You know, for me, I did start out as an evidentialist. I was heavily involved in apologetics. In fact, I was, me and a buddy of mine started a ministry called New York Apologetics.

I debated an atheist at the campus of Long Island University. And that was kind of the birth of this apologetics movement here on Long Island. I shouldn't say the whole movement, but the birth of New York Apologetics.

And we went to cross-examine Instructors Academy with Frank Turek and the guys and came at it from an evidentialist point of view. And then I, then I listened to, you know, listening to James White and listening to Bonson, I started to rethink what was going on.

And I became good friends with Eli Ayala. He lived on Long Island as well. So, you know, he was sown into me. And when I saw it, you know, it was, it was when Paul says in the wisdom of God, man does not know God through wisdom.

It's like, wait a second, that's the exact opposite of what I'm thinking. You know, I'm thinking I'm going to give them enough information so that they come to the knowledge of God. And then the scripture says, well, all men know God.

So like, this was a paradigm shift for me. And as, you know, I started reading and listening to, you know, presuppositional apologetics talks, and we went through the book, Always Ready. In fact, it's on the channel, chapter by chapter.

So if anybody wants to go through that, I'll put the playlist in the, in the little box, or you click on it. And then as I come to, to employ it, I see incredible power in starting with God, right? And, and arguing to the evidence, not starting with the evidence and arguing to God.

We, we place our feet on a firm foundation and argue from that. I never put my Bible down now. You know, back then it was, well, well, I don't believe the Bible. Okay. I don't need the Bible to explain God to you.

This is why we have the cosmological argument. We have this argument, teleological argument, all good arguments, but they're arguments that the scriptures tell us. Those arguments, the foundation for those arguments are in the scripture.

So be that, be that as it may. I wanted to ask you for the audience, because again, this is the Reform Rookie Channel. What is the transcendental argument and why use it? The transcendental argument,.

The Transcendental Argument for God and the Difference Between Presuppositions and Assumptions

Throw me softballs. The transcendental argument for the existence of God is, is one of those things where if you ask 20 people, you're going to get 20 different questions or 20 different answers. The transcendental argument, as I understand it, is that you start with God, as you said, you start with God as the necessary precondition for the intelligibility of reality.

You can insert anything in there, intelligibility of morals, intelligibility for the laws of logic, intelligibility of science. You can, you can put anything in there and God is the transcendent explanation for all of those things.

The transcendental argument, like you said, argues from God rather than to God, whereas evidentialists and classical, in a sense, will try to argue to God using reason and evidence. And, you know, let's examine this historical fact over here and see if we can find God.

The transcendental argument does, the transcendental argument uses those, but starts with God instead of starting with those and then trying to get to God. Morality, so morality, for example, when you apply the transcendental argument to morality, all humans have a moral system.

Atheists have a moral system. They, but they can't account for it. Even in the debate with Chris, I said, are morals transcendent? And he, he wouldn't answer the question. He was trying to work around it, but he couldn't answer it because if he said yes, then he's acknowledging that there's something above the human reality, which gives meaning and light to morality.

And if he says no, then the debate's done. So no matter how you answer it, the debate's done. Either way, God exists, you know, the transcendental argument is so overpowered, so insanely useful. It's, it's completely, it's, if you can employ it correctly, it, it's, it's, it's a showstopper.

A hundred percent. Yes. Eli, you know, drilled it into my head that one of the ways you can describe the transcendental argument is what must be true in order for anything else to be true? Right? So when somebody says there is no such thing as truth, you say, is that true?

I mean, it's, it's, it's self-defeating. So if I say, well, I was standing on the second floor of the building, well, that presupposes a first floor. There must be a foundation for everything that we're standing on.

So when we use the laws of logic, when we use moral laws, when we use the scientific method, those things must have a foundation. And God is the only one who can ground all of those things transcendentally.

Those, he, he must be true in order for everything else to be true. So you're right. It is, it is a game changer when you, when you employ it correctly.

Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of critics of the transcendental argument will say that us presuppers, we're just assuming God, we're just assuming the Bible. But that's actually not true because most people don't understand the difference between an assumption and a presupposition.

A presupposition gives meaning to a statement. Assumptions come after the statement. So for example, if I said my cat ran away yesterday, you could assume the cat's black. You could assume it escaped through the back door.

You could assume it escaped at 3 PM yesterday. You could make assumptions based on the statement, but you'd have to presuppose that I have a cat. You have to presuppose that the cat is alive. You have to presuppose that the cat has feet.

So that's just a silly example, but, but, but it's silly, but it, it, that's, I think the biggest thing that, that atheists are struggling right now with is in dealing with the tag argument, the transcendental argument is they confuse a presupposition with an assumption.

We all make assumptions, but we all have presuppositions. You have to have them to make intelligibility.

Out of any statement at all. Right. Yeah. And that's, that was one of the things that was paradigm changing for me. Every single human being has presuppositions and no one is neutral. You know, you have a view and you have faith in that view and that's why you're, you're, you're going in that direction.

So one of the questions that I like to ask atheists usually is, what is truth? And they say, well, that which corresponds to reality. And I just follow it up. I kicked the can a little further down and said, well, who's reality?

Hitler's or Mother Teresa's? Like, you know, like how do we, how do we have reality? You know? So, you know, I learned, and just like you said before from Van Til, we're thinking God's thoughts after him.

Right? So the, the, the worldview is it's God's worldview. This is the way he created things. When we start with, with him as the base assumption, the base presupposition, everything else falls into place.

It falls together like a, like a jigsaw puzzle. There's nothing out of place. And when I'm examining someone else's worldview, I'm thinking of like a puzzle. How does this fit into his metaphysic? If it doesn't fit well, then it's arbitrary inconsistent and it doesn't have a precondition of intelligibility.

Yeah. Yeah. So how does epistemology play a role in presuppositional.

Apologetics? Yeah. Epistemology is directly impacted by our theology. If you assume that man in himself, like I, like I said earlier, if you assume that man has an epistemology that is unhindered by Adam's fall into sin, then you have an unbiblical understanding of epistemology.

Um, we see in Genesis that God made man and woman and God told them, do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And what was the first thing that the serpent attacked? He attacked their epistemology.

He attacked, did God really say, did he really say that you, you know, you know, you can decide for yourself if, if this is really bad, you don't have to, you don't have to submit to God as, as the precondition for everything around you, you can decide for yourself.

So epistemology, uh, plays a role in presuppositional apologetics in the fact that we don't, well, one of the facts that we don't grant to the unbeliever, the right to properly interpret the evidence or reality about them whatsoever.

We start with the base assumptions, the base epistemology, as low as we can get. And we say, how do you know what you know is true? Can you account for that? Um, to quote, to quote Van Til, cause he's, he's just so cool.

I love quoting him. This is, this is in his books, uh, book, uh, Christian apologetics. He says, Satan suggested to Eve that God's statements about the revelation of one temporal fact to another was not determinative of the nature of that relationship.

Facts and the truth about their relationships to one another can be known by man. Man has to choose between taking the divine mind of his own, of the divine, excuse me, man has to choose between taking the divine mind or his own mind as the source of all truth about facts.

See, there it is. Every time. Proper planning.

You were ready. Yup. Yup. So I'll give you a follow-up question with that. So the person's going to say, well, don't we have to use our, our rational, logical minds first? You say that I have to argue from the existence of God, but wouldn't I have to argue from my existence,.

Then get to the existence of God and go back? Yeah. If you employ your mind, uh, you are presupposing the laws of logic. You're presupposing intelligibility about the fact that the facts about, um, can you account for, uh, understanding the facts correctly?

How do you account for the around you? If you can't do it, then you're just believing by faith, by blind faith that you can.

Make sense of reality. So if they were to say, well, I can use the scientific method, uh, and I could talk to people around the world who have the same experience as me. Uh, that's, that's, that's the way I interpret the evidence.

I use the scientific method and I bounce it off other people. If they can come to the same conclusion, well then, then that's how I know things.

Science, Uniformity, and the Limits of Human Knowledge

Yeah. Science presupposes uniformity of nature, which again, presupposes God. Cause if you assume a chance universe, then how do you know that tomorrow is going to be like the past? How do you know that tomorrow when you turn on your stove to boil some water, it doesn't freeze the water because in atheism and in skepticism, that could be true.

It could be true that when you go to start your car tomorrow, it turns into a giant plate of spaghetti because, excuse me, because you can't, you can't assume these things to be uniform in nature. If reality is the product of chance, then how do you know epistemologically that anything has uniformity at all?

You can't.

Account for it. Right. And so we would say at that point, you have faith that things are going to be tomorrow like they are today, because you don't know where, what, what I, what I like to tell people is any fact is a fact because God says it's a fact, right?

God is the father of all facts. Every fact is a fact because God made it a fact. If we have an omniscient God who knows everything and we, we, we have a person who stands next to God, I asked him as a person, how much knowledge do you think you have out of all the knowledge in the world?

You know, even if it's 1%, you're probably, you know, you have the most knowledge of anybody on earth, but it's much, much less than 1 of all the knowledge of everything in the world. So if I was to ask you a question and I was to ask God a question, who's going to give me the right answer?

A hundred percent of the time, God, because he knows everything. So we have an omniscient creator who reveals things to us such that we can know them for certain because he's omniscient because he has all knowledge.

Think about how many times science has changed in order to adapt to the, to the environment around it. Like, Oh, I give you a great example. In 2020,.

There was this thing going around. I don't want to say what it is because then it gets shut down. But, uh, the science told us for two years that, Hey, if you, if you get the cookies, then you'll be safe.

And then all of a sudden, a few years later, Oh, the cookies aren't safe after all. Oh, I'm sorry about the heart condition. So science popular sciences is, is, um, to be crass. It's a joke. Uh, it, it, it's, it takes so many things for granted.

There's so much blind faith involved in, in modern science. It's so politicized when someone says, you know, science has proven that we don't need God. It's like two years ago, you thought that getting something jabbed in your arm was going to save you.

And where are we now? How do you know? So that's, that's, that's a little throwaway there. Yeah. And I'd like to see the scientific.

Experiment that you did that proved that God doesn't exist on, on a different level. You know, when I was growing up in like the late seventies in grammar school, you know, the big thing was the ice age.

We're going to get an ice age. Things are not going to work. It's going to be bad. And all of a sudden that faded away. And then it turns into, there's a hole in the ozone layer. You can't use aerosol cans.

The sun's going to burn us up. And then it was acid rain. And then when acid rain, it went to climate change. And now it's, it's, it's constantly changing. And it's, we went from having an ice age to be, to being melted into nothing.

It's like, and the science confirmed all of this the whole time. It's so sad that people, listen, I believe that there's, there's bona fide good scientists out there, but I think the people who fund the scientists might say, Hey, listen, this is what we're looking to do.

You know, can you find any evidence that supports this? And if you're being paid by those person, no one is neutral. Right. And, and if you don't have a moral compass, you don't have the Holy Spirit living inside of you.

Well, you're just going to do it to earn a living for your family.

Gentleness, Respect, and Internal Critique in the Debate with Chris May

Right. Yeah. It's almost like, it's almost like people are sinful and it's almost like people employ their intellect to bolster their sin nature. You know, it is, this goes full circle. It is we as presuppositionalists don't grant that man is neutral including in the sciences.